March 2, 2026 • 26 mins
Grace Sammon is a dynamic force in the literary world — an award-winning author, radio host, entrepreneur, and educator. Recognized in Who’s Who in Education and Who’s Who in Literature, she is the recipient of the 2025 Indies United Publishing House’s Award for Inspirational Women in Literature, Media, and Journalism.
A master of reinvention, Grace transformed her career with her fourth book and debut novel, The Eves, which garnered strong critical acclaim. In addition to her newest novel, The Reliable Narrator, she has authored seven books
Read moe about Grace Sammon:
www.GraceSammon.net
Read the book:
https://www.amazon.com/Reliable-Narrator-Grace-Sammon/dp/1662969899
Read moe about Grace Sammon:
www.GraceSammon.net
Read the book:
https://www.amazon.com/Reliable-Narrator-Grace-Sammon/dp/1662969899
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I know everyone, and welcome to the waiters class. And
it's very exciting because I'm here. This is Jame by
the way, Oh my god, she's alive.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
One person asked me when they came on there, like
is she real? And I'm like, yes, Jade is real.
I am. I have I have flesh and bone and everything,
and all the pains to deal with it. All of that,
you would go with paints. You would go with I
was gonna say in the weight loss, to go with that,
and you would go with the pain with the pains. Well,
that's how you know you're really alive. You're like, oh,
(00:32):
oh my name, yup, yup, yup, I woke up, yup.
There it is.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
This is well noana, though.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
And that's Jade. As I said before, I mean, we
are the entire ladies and we want a lot of books,
but right now we're kind of really focusing on as
this thing is falling, the Famous house Cleaners. No one
can see anything. Yeah, the Famous house Cleaners, which we
have gotten bade these reviews. You know, it's very interesting.
Someone called it Danny, and yeah, I wrote that. But
(01:03):
the books are and I thought the voice was bad,
and I thought being Brunopa was easy if only are
me a member of Vorus Foreign Coffee, Wittles Web and
Wittle's Debt. You can find those books wherever you buy
audio books and the rest of them you find books. One, Yeah,
you can find that on Amazon. Oh, you can always
find out what Juli's at on www dot and I
thought ladies dot com. But you're not here to hear
about us. You're here to hear about our wonderful guests.
(01:25):
Wonderful guests. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thrilled to be with Jade and well known today, I
am Grace Salmon. I am an award winning author of
fiction and nonfiction. I host two different radio shows, and
I was very excited to be the recipient of the
n d's United Publishing Houses Award for Inspirational Women last year,
so thank you for that, and from two incredibly inspirational
(01:54):
women themselves. I'm just so happy to be with you again.
Thanks for having me, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
For going on.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
I mean, I'm going to jump into it because you
have a new book out which I'm super excited about,
so let's talk about it. How did you come up
with the storyline like.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Just the thanks.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So all of the things. So this is book eight.
The first three books were in education, really important, not novels.
Then there was a novel called The Eves that came
out five years ago.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Then there were three.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Books which you folks wrote a chapter in, and that
was on writing, publishing, and marketing your book. And then
I learned so much about writing, publishing and marketing your book.
I was exhausted and decided I was done writing, publishing
or marketing a book. And then last spring, zip zapp
I got this idea for a book about a woman
(02:45):
who's a ghostwriter who hides behind other people's stories because
she doesn't think she has one of her own. It's
called The Reliable Narrator. It pubs on May five. I
think it's got an absolutely stunning cover. It takes place
largely in the beautiful, lush North Valley of Albuquerque and
(03:06):
partly in Croton on Hudson, New York. And it's a
story about friendship and loss and claiming your voice.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, I find it interesting that you chose New York
as a setting someplace that gets cold when you live
in wonderful Florida. Did you have to imagine it or
did you go visit. Did you do research?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
That's a wonderful question, because I am in gorgeous Florida.
We're today it is freezing cold. It is fifty six degrees.
I am in boots, socks and a jacket because this
is really cold for us. But the house that I
love so much is my brother's home in Croton on Hudson,
New York. And it's just this beautiful home that if
(03:50):
I could move anywhere, I would move into his house.
So you know, what we do as authors, we may
happen what we want to have happened. So I moved
him to Florida, and the main character moves right into
his house in Croton. And then I have family in Albuquerque,
New Mexico. And well, Albuquerque is dusty and dry and
(04:10):
high desert. There's a section which is really kind of
lush called the North Valley, and the other woman lives
in the North Valley of Albuquerque.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Okay, I love how a unique area each point. I
love that. And yes, as right as we do, we
ride ourselves where we want to be. Yeah, we do
so which.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And I really like writing place. I want my places
to be characters as much as my characters, So I
want you to be able to read that book and
feel you know you're in Phoebe's kitchen. You can smell
the tamalies, you can see the Sandia Mountains in the background.
I want you to know that in your gut when
you're reading.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So I do have a question, did you relate to
your character in the book? Did you feel like maybe
you had no story at some point in your life?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I know Carly Jong, the famous German I guess he
is German psychologist, always says that everything we talk about
when we dream. He's big on dream interpretation. He says,
every character in your dream is really a different aspect
of yourself. And I think that's true with my characters,
(05:20):
that every character I write has a little bit of
who I am in it. These two, the two main characters,
are women who've been friends since they were twelve years
old and they're now almost sixty and they know everything
about each other. They've been really good friends. They had
a little bit of a falling out, but the story
(05:41):
changes for Darby, the main character, when her dying friend says,
I've got one last wish. Please write our story, and
their's is a story. Darby was sexually abused as a child.
Phoebe was assaulted repeatedly by her husband, And that's part
of my story for two for sure, but.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It's not all of my story.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I used that as a vehicle for Darby to find
her voice. Why was she hiding? I'd been wanting to
write about a ghost writer for a long time, but
I thought, why is she a ghost writer? Why is
she hiding behind other people's stories? And then it came
to me, it's because she doesn't feel she has one
of her own. She was silenced, she was told to
(06:24):
be quiet, and then obviously that resonated with part of
my background and the story took off.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Wow, that is amazing. You always have strong female characters
and you get those voices so beautifully. Okay, how do
you work on your dialogue?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
How do I work on dialogue?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, because your dialogue is always crisp, it has a life,
little emotional underlayer to do it. There we go, underlayers.
It's been writing for a while. Now my book is
doing two days and I'm only on chapter five. Well,
you know, I underlayer is a word.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Now, there you go.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think it's a perfectly good word. Well, no, it's
a great. I'm going to use it in my next book.
I don't know about you, but the characters talk in
my head.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So you know.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I have a great coffee mug and it says, I
may look like I'm listening to you, but secretly I'm writing.
In my head the characters are talking to me. So
I think that that happens. One of the things I
do is I read what I write out loud, and sometimes,
if I'm really lucky, my husband will read to me
what I've written, and then I can really hear if.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
The dialogue sits.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I had a long series of dialogues in this book,
and my husband, who's my first editor, was reading and going,
I can't tell who's talking anymore because it was so
much dialogue. So I had to figure out how to
do that, and for me, having somebody read that out
loud is the best way to do it. I have
a friend who does it, and she has the computer
do it, read it back to her.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
But it doesn't sound the same.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
I don't think, oh, it doesn't sound the same.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
But we did that for this last book. The famous
house clean is because we had to get that dialogue.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
You got to get the dialogue right yeah, the dialogue.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Right, I know, like everyone absolutely hates Ai. But I
did have Ai split the book up and do cast
members so that like each person and I was like, ah,
and if they got confused, I was like, ah, you
need to fix it. They don't know who's talking.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well, you know, it's it's interesting that you will know
to bring up Ai because the character in the book
has a brother who is a prolific writer, and he
keeps unsane, just use Ai, just use Ai.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And she keeps on saying, I can't do it. I
can't do it.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I can't do it. But there is definitely a place
for Ai in our world, in our writing world.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I think so. I think it's easier.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
That's going to be controversial statement right there when I
say it, But I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
It's definitely.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
I mean, as we used it for some of the
reading it back to us, just to be able to
hear it out loud to me, like, Okay, that doesn't flow,
because after you stay at it for so long and
so many editors have gone through it, you still want
to do those final edits to make sure they're good,
and you just yeah, that doesn't blow.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I have to try something else. Exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And Jaye, you talk about editors, I am newly impressed
with editors. I had several people at my book first,
then I sent it out to a professional editor. She
caught things that nobody ever would have caught, And then
I sent it out to my street team and I
still got eleven edits back.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yes, that is always always, I tell people sometimes you
have to give authors grace.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Right, sometimes there's going to be a couple of hypos.
But do you know how many people this has went
through before you caught that type?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, and same.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Of them are like, how did everybody miss that? How
did the paid editor miss it? How did I read
it after the paid miss it? You know, things like
a double Some things are simple, like a double period
at the end of a sentence. But I just caught
one that says he apostropheus, so he's is. So not
only did I do he apostrophe us, but I also
(10:09):
typed in the s is.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yes, I got to fix us.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
But that normally happens when you're flowing, when you're when
the writer is really just like there and it's just
like yes, it's almost like you were born to write.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
This on earth, was to just write this right here,
and if anything, I mean, if something happened where part
of the street fell away, you'd like.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Give me a moment, let me finish the sentence.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
So, as we were talking earlier, you've had some challenges
in your life. How did you still continue to write
on these challenges? Over these challenges and just stick to
getting this book out there?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Thank you for addressing that. I think that we had
a really rough year as a family. Multiple cancer diagnoses
just so many different family challenges. So for part of
my life, I think writing is the escape right. You
can turn off everything else, but for example, you know
(11:14):
it shows up in your writing. One of the characters
in my book is dying of cancer. So part of
it is a way to transform and to find a
safe space for your.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Head or my head anyway.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And for me, creating is really important. So the act
of creating gives me life, which then allows me to
be more present for others. I think the other thing
is learning how to say no. I have to be
much better at the yes's and the no's in my
(11:46):
life so that I can have some time for my writing.
And I think the other thing is making sure I
make time for the important things though you know, I'm
so sad that you have a deadline in two days,
because that is a heavy, heavy thing to just have that.
Not only is it heavy for oh my gosh, I
(12:06):
have to be creative and on point and give readers
what they want and all of that in a two
day block, but it also then precludes you from doing
some other things that you may want to do, whether
it's go play in the snow, which you have tons
of up there right now, or whether it's just you know,
helping out a friend that needs help shoveling the snow.
(12:29):
You might not be able to be as present for them.
So I'm trying to say yes more and more to
the right things that give me life and the people
I love life. I think one of the things you
know about me is I'm always about trying to lift
up others. That's people have lifted me up along the way,
and I just think it's both a pay it forward
(12:49):
and a pay it backward thing, So it's not always easy.
I was lucky plus this, plus the truth of it,
this story just.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Flowed right out of me.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I've never written anything so fast in my life.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Well, I'm very I'm very excited, but the release state
in May. But also you said that you were already
writing the second book in the series.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It's not a series. The next one's totally different. It
takes place largely in Washington, d C. Where I did
spend tons and tons of time, and where my other
books spent time as well, but in Great Falls, Virginia,
where I think I've driven through it once.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
But it's a really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Part of northern Virginia, very close to the Potomac Rivers
and these falls, the falls only are one hundred and
seventy feet high, but they go on forever, They cascade
forever if you haven't had a chance to be there.
And this is about a woman who is a radio
show host and she is married to a pathological liar.
(13:46):
So it plays with the idea of what it's like
to be married to somebody who's totally flawed, and how
do you find happiness within that scenario.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Well, we're going from a reliable narrator to an unreliable narrative. No,
she've know.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
And well no, no, I had not thought about that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yes, we went from very reliable narrators to a very
unreliable husband.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Exactly. This is it just it falls in line with
you with your life almost because you've gone from education
to like the nuts and bolts of publishing and writing,
and now we're all a reliable narrator and a radio
host and now we're doing something completely opposite, of course,
with a half unreliable narrator and about places that you know,
(14:32):
still keeping a touchstone to your real life. Have any
of this and uh made your writing better? You think
having the background education obviously and then knowing the nuts
and bolts, does any of it Like when you sit down,
do you be like not not? This has definitely got
to go in because this is what's in my head.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
A couple of things have really influenced my writing since
the first novel came out five years ago, and part
of that was the experience of doing the books on writing, publishing,
and marketing to see really so many other authors progress
and process and how they approached it. This time, I
was very influenced by Barbara Davis. Barbara Davis is an
(15:16):
award winning author. She's with Lake Union. I think she's
twelve books and twelve novels, all of them best sellers.
One of them is going to be a Broadway musical
in production now. One of them is going to be
a netflix. When I sit with Barbara, she talks about
having every sentence sparkle, and I never thought about that,
(15:37):
but she was all about she counts the syllable. Excuse me,
She counts the syllables in a sentence, and if she
edits that sentence, she rereads it to see if it
still has a lyric flow. And I know, you know,
you both do poetry, and to have that's so important there.
But I hadn't really thought about it in terms of prose.
(16:01):
So this time I worked much harder on sentence structure.
I worked much more deeply in terms of simile and metaphor,
wanting a whole different sense of the reading. So I
think the writing is much more compelling in this book.
(16:23):
One of my favorite sentences is the mother and daughter
have this big clash. They have a very ugly scene
one night, and then the next morning they are very
uncomfortable around each other in the kitchen. And I remember
going to bed that night, and I thought, what happens
the next morning? And I turned off the light and
(16:43):
I went They moved around the kitchen like overly cautious
bulls in a china shop of emotions, and I went,
I don't know where that came from, but the idea
that they were overly fous bulls in a China shop
of emotions, I just got up and then I wrote
(17:04):
the whole next chapter. But I think it's because I
put my head in a mindset of the best writing
I could do, and maybe I should do that all along.
But it was definitely a commitment to sparkling sentences. And
then the other part of that is, and I'm finding
(17:24):
that in this book as well, is I'm writing. I'm
not a plotter. I write the beginning, I write the end,
and then I find my way to the middle. But
I'm doing things like I've already started the appreciation notes
for the next book. I've started the book club questions
for the next book. As I write a question, as
(17:48):
I play with thoughts now the unreliable husband's name is
Seth set And as I think about Seth, the question
I want book clubs to ask.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Is could you find him lovable?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And then I went, oh, well, if I want them
to ask that, I should build the book club god
now as opposed to at the end. So I did
that with narrator, and I'm doing that again, I really think.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
That it's wonderful and I think that you said all along.
But what people don't understand is, even if it's not
your full time career, being an author is a writing career,
and in a career, you're always learning, right, You're always
going back and getting like you know, you sit through those.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Boring, those boring days where you're.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Seminars, seminars and stuff like that because you just want
to continue to learn to get better at your job.
And so for you to be like, hey, five years
ago this and then now I'm here thinking about the
that means that you just you set through your own seminars,
You created your own seminars through the books, and then
you're like, oh yeah, so I should use this in
my career. And that makes perfect sense. And I think
a lot of people don't understand. And as we love
(18:52):
our authors, right, you can read the first book and
be like wow, when you read the sixth book, they
have come so far. But because that's a career, because
they've been learning as they're going along, I think that
what do you think.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Well, I think so. And it's also what makes it fun. Right,
If I was just going to sit down and do
the same thing. I could do the same thing, So
I want to make it. What's you know, I'm going
to be selfish about it. I want to learn. I
wanted to sparkle. I want to make people cry. I
want to make people think. I want to lift people up.
(19:28):
So if I want to do all those things, I
better be good at.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
It exactly so far, I hope. I am. Oh, no,
you are.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You did a great job.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, I having I was there.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I was like, oh, good hair or anyone who can
really do a strong woman voice and delve into the
emotion because I'm not going to lie. I am not
that person. Still learning, by the way, that sentence is perfect.
I'm looking forward to reading it in the book. I'm
trying to think you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It tells you, and you know, sometimes I wish I
knew where that came from. Like boy, I want a
lot more of those sentences, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right, yeah, ye honestly, like honestly, I did an analysis
of the book about like, hey, of the book that
we're writing right now for myself, and I was like,
analyze it and tell me what's wrong with my book?
And it came back with one thing, you're writing art
write a story because your your lines are so lyrical,
(20:30):
they all have a rhythm. You have a short one
where there should be a short one, like you feel
like you're on a song. Clarry is so varied and
it's just rolling through and it's like you're writing a book.
They're going to get lost in the beauty of the language.
So not that a bad thing. I don't know when
I got when the analysis came back, it was like,
(20:52):
for this genre, don't do that mystery. So we're writing
a second book of a mystery. So they're like, I
don't know if you did.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
But I turned to a Lona and I said, listen, no,
we're gonna cut some of it, right because give the
market what it once. But we're gonna keep some of
it because that's what we want. And I feel like
that's what our fans expect from us. It's a little
bit of literary splashed into whatever we write.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
But I love when someone else goes and they find
the actual literary excellent. They make each sentence sparkle, they
think about the vocabulary they're probably wearing out of the
sources to the fact that it's falling apart. I love
that and I love reading it. And I'm like, yes,
what and then like when you read something it inspires
(21:39):
you to start writing on the side too.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Do you think that your readers are gonna come to
expect you both write beautifully? They're gonna want those words.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I gotta admit I am moving a lot faster, but
I'm doing it. But I feel like they're gonna want
me through chapters that are probably gonna want it. I
think we still put it in there, even though we don't.
It's not so sing songing, not so a poetic, but
it is still in there. There's still some some stuff
that's going on, but we're not talking about y'all. And
(22:12):
actually we're coming to the end of I wanted to
ask you a question before what came to the end.
Since you, madam, are the queen of the publishing marketing section,
do you have any advice for people who are coming
into the writer's world and they want to sell their books?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Goodness, hardest question ever.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I think.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
The thing that shocks me about writing the books on publishing, writing, publishing,
and marketing are how quickly the industry is changing. So
those books have been out maybe a year and a half.
They're called Launchpad, the countdown too, writing, marketing, publishing three
separate books. The marketing one is the one that I
(22:54):
think is still a really great base for anybody, but
it is changing so quickly. You know, social media used
to be were in either Facebook or Instagram. You could
pick your genre, you could pick your age.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Group, you knew where to go.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
And now there you know, there's certainly TikTok, there's threads,
there's new ones every day, there's books to grammars, there's oh,
there's also there's a substack, which is not social media.
But I think that every author needs to know first
and foremost why are they writing their book and who
(23:27):
are they writing their book for? So if you don't,
if you can't answer that question, nothing else needs to happen.
And I used to have a publisher who asked.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Me that question.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I was like, because I really want to write it
and it's going to be great and it's going to
be a Netflix series. No, I write it to communicate,
to connect with readers. You know, the Eves is still
getting royalties five years after and I do nothing in
terms of publicizing it. Could I do more? Sure? Would
I earn more?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
But I think that's the essential question, it's what are
why are you writing? And who are you writing for?
Then everything will flow from that. Yes, I believe you
need a social media presence, but I don't know, you know,
it's gonna there's so many other variables right now.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, there's a lot going on in the walketing world.
There's that space. And I believe, like oktak is kind
of like reigning supreme.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Right right now, I think big talk is I think,
but you know, by the time this is probably comes out,
probably won't be you know, that goes just that's how
it goes nowadays. So where can people pick up your book?
Pre order your book, find out more about you, listen
to your radio programs when it returns, and don't forget
to pick.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Up the eve Shell.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Okay, so thank you so much. You can find out
more about me at Gracesalmon dot net, net net net
dot com, Grace Salmon dot net. My name is at
the bottom of the screen.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
It's not it.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Sounds like the fish, but it is not spelled like
the fish. So Grace Salmon dot net. You can find
out anything you want about me, and you can pick
up The Reliable Narrator. It's available for pre order right
now ninety nine cents for the e book, but it's
available on Amazon and all places books are sold, and
it pubs on may Find. And I love doing book clubs.
(25:14):
I love doing podcasts. Invite me to yours.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Thank you so much for being here with us, Grace.
It feels amazing to have them back on.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I can't believe we've only known you for five years,
like it feels like we've known you forever, right.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
I feel like we went to several times like all
the things, but.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Y'all just amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And you're my first podcast about the reliable narrator, So
I couldn't be happier starting out with the two of you.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Oh wow, I'm very excited that you told us. Thank you,
Thank you. Going to get some practicing, y'all. Remember to
pick up a book or who you ordered the valuable
narrator and I guess we'll get it end the show, right. Remember,
the wisdom is all around you if you're open to
finding it and accepting it. So peace in love from
well Nona and Jade. Yes, I'm gonna say both of
(25:59):
our names today. Oh yeah, thanks for listening.
I know everyone, and welcome to the waiters class. And
it's very exciting because I'm here. This is Jame by
the way, Oh my god, she's alive.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
One person asked me when they came on there, like
is she real? And I'm like, yes, Jade is real.
I am. I have I have flesh and bone and everything,
and all the pains to deal with it. All of that,
you would go with paints. You would go with I
was gonna say in the weight loss, to go with that,
and you would go with the pain with the pains. Well,
that's how you know you're really alive. You're like, oh,
(00:32):
oh my name, yup, yup, yup, I woke up, yup.
There it is.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
This is well noana, though.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
And that's Jade. As I said before, I mean, we
are the entire ladies and we want a lot of books,
but right now we're kind of really focusing on as
this thing is falling, the Famous house Cleaners. No one
can see anything. Yeah, the Famous house Cleaners, which we
have gotten bade these reviews. You know, it's very interesting.
Someone called it Danny, and yeah, I wrote that. But
(01:03):
the books are and I thought the voice was bad,
and I thought being Brunopa was easy if only are
me a member of Vorus Foreign Coffee, Wittles Web and
Wittle's Debt. You can find those books wherever you buy
audio books and the rest of them you find books. One, Yeah,
you can find that on Amazon. Oh, you can always
find out what Juli's at on www dot and I
thought ladies dot com. But you're not here to hear
about us. You're here to hear about our wonderful guests.
(01:25):
Wonderful guests. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thrilled to be with Jade and well known today, I
am Grace Salmon. I am an award winning author of
fiction and nonfiction. I host two different radio shows, and
I was very excited to be the recipient of the
n d's United Publishing Houses Award for Inspirational Women last year,
so thank you for that, and from two incredibly inspirational
(01:54):
women themselves. I'm just so happy to be with you again.
Thanks for having me, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
For going on.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
I mean, I'm going to jump into it because you
have a new book out which I'm super excited about,
so let's talk about it. How did you come up
with the storyline like.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Just the thanks.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So all of the things. So this is book eight.
The first three books were in education, really important, not novels.
Then there was a novel called The Eves that came
out five years ago.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Then there were three.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Books which you folks wrote a chapter in, and that
was on writing, publishing, and marketing your book. And then
I learned so much about writing, publishing and marketing your book.
I was exhausted and decided I was done writing, publishing
or marketing a book. And then last spring, zip zapp
I got this idea for a book about a woman
(02:45):
who's a ghostwriter who hides behind other people's stories because
she doesn't think she has one of her own. It's
called The Reliable Narrator. It pubs on May five. I
think it's got an absolutely stunning cover. It takes place
largely in the beautiful, lush North Valley of Albuquerque and
(03:06):
partly in Croton on Hudson, New York. And it's a
story about friendship and loss and claiming your voice.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, I find it interesting that you chose New York
as a setting someplace that gets cold when you live
in wonderful Florida. Did you have to imagine it or
did you go visit. Did you do research?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
That's a wonderful question, because I am in gorgeous Florida.
We're today it is freezing cold. It is fifty six degrees.
I am in boots, socks and a jacket because this
is really cold for us. But the house that I
love so much is my brother's home in Croton on Hudson,
New York. And it's just this beautiful home that if
(03:50):
I could move anywhere, I would move into his house.
So you know, what we do as authors, we may
happen what we want to have happened. So I moved
him to Florida, and the main character moves right into
his house in Croton. And then I have family in Albuquerque,
New Mexico. And well, Albuquerque is dusty and dry and
(04:10):
high desert. There's a section which is really kind of
lush called the North Valley, and the other woman lives
in the North Valley of Albuquerque.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Okay, I love how a unique area each point. I
love that. And yes, as right as we do, we
ride ourselves where we want to be. Yeah, we do
so which.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And I really like writing place. I want my places
to be characters as much as my characters, So I
want you to be able to read that book and
feel you know you're in Phoebe's kitchen. You can smell
the tamalies, you can see the Sandia Mountains in the background.
I want you to know that in your gut when
you're reading.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So I do have a question, did you relate to
your character in the book? Did you feel like maybe
you had no story at some point in your life?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I know Carly Jong, the famous German I guess he
is German psychologist, always says that everything we talk about
when we dream. He's big on dream interpretation. He says,
every character in your dream is really a different aspect
of yourself. And I think that's true with my characters,
(05:20):
that every character I write has a little bit of
who I am in it. These two, the two main characters,
are women who've been friends since they were twelve years
old and they're now almost sixty and they know everything
about each other. They've been really good friends. They had
a little bit of a falling out, but the story
(05:41):
changes for Darby, the main character, when her dying friend says,
I've got one last wish. Please write our story, and
their's is a story. Darby was sexually abused as a child.
Phoebe was assaulted repeatedly by her husband, And that's part
of my story for two for sure, but.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It's not all of my story.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I used that as a vehicle for Darby to find
her voice. Why was she hiding? I'd been wanting to
write about a ghost writer for a long time, but
I thought, why is she a ghost writer? Why is
she hiding behind other people's stories? And then it came
to me, it's because she doesn't feel she has one
of her own. She was silenced, she was told to
(06:24):
be quiet, and then obviously that resonated with part of
my background and the story took off.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Wow, that is amazing. You always have strong female characters
and you get those voices so beautifully. Okay, how do
you work on your dialogue?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
How do I work on dialogue?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, because your dialogue is always crisp, it has a life,
little emotional underlayer to do it. There we go, underlayers.
It's been writing for a while. Now my book is
doing two days and I'm only on chapter five. Well,
you know, I underlayer is a word.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Now, there you go.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think it's a perfectly good word. Well, no, it's
a great. I'm going to use it in my next book.
I don't know about you, but the characters talk in
my head.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So you know.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I have a great coffee mug and it says, I
may look like I'm listening to you, but secretly I'm writing.
In my head the characters are talking to me. So
I think that that happens. One of the things I
do is I read what I write out loud, and sometimes,
if I'm really lucky, my husband will read to me
what I've written, and then I can really hear if.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
The dialogue sits.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I had a long series of dialogues in this book,
and my husband, who's my first editor, was reading and going,
I can't tell who's talking anymore because it was so
much dialogue. So I had to figure out how to
do that, and for me, having somebody read that out
loud is the best way to do it. I have
a friend who does it, and she has the computer
do it, read it back to her.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
But it doesn't sound the same.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
I don't think, oh, it doesn't sound the same.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
But we did that for this last book. The famous
house clean is because we had to get that dialogue.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
You got to get the dialogue right yeah, the dialogue.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Right, I know, like everyone absolutely hates Ai. But I
did have Ai split the book up and do cast
members so that like each person and I was like, ah,
and if they got confused, I was like, ah, you
need to fix it. They don't know who's talking.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well, you know, it's it's interesting that you will know
to bring up Ai because the character in the book
has a brother who is a prolific writer, and he
keeps unsane, just use Ai, just use Ai.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And she keeps on saying, I can't do it. I
can't do it.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I can't do it. But there is definitely a place
for Ai in our world, in our writing world.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I think so. I think it's easier.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
That's going to be controversial statement right there when I
say it, But I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
It's definitely.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
I mean, as we used it for some of the
reading it back to us, just to be able to
hear it out loud to me, like, Okay, that doesn't flow,
because after you stay at it for so long and
so many editors have gone through it, you still want
to do those final edits to make sure they're good,
and you just yeah, that doesn't blow.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I have to try something else. Exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And Jaye, you talk about editors, I am newly impressed
with editors. I had several people at my book first,
then I sent it out to a professional editor. She
caught things that nobody ever would have caught, And then
I sent it out to my street team and I
still got eleven edits back.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yes, that is always always, I tell people sometimes you
have to give authors grace.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Right, sometimes there's going to be a couple of hypos.
But do you know how many people this has went
through before you caught that type?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, and same.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Of them are like, how did everybody miss that? How
did the paid editor miss it? How did I read
it after the paid miss it? You know, things like
a double Some things are simple, like a double period
at the end of a sentence. But I just caught
one that says he apostropheus, so he's is. So not
only did I do he apostrophe us, but I also
(10:09):
typed in the s is.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yes, I got to fix us.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
But that normally happens when you're flowing, when you're when
the writer is really just like there and it's just
like yes, it's almost like you were born to write.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
This on earth, was to just write this right here,
and if anything, I mean, if something happened where part
of the street fell away, you'd like.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Give me a moment, let me finish the sentence.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
So, as we were talking earlier, you've had some challenges
in your life. How did you still continue to write
on these challenges? Over these challenges and just stick to
getting this book out there?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Thank you for addressing that. I think that we had
a really rough year as a family. Multiple cancer diagnoses
just so many different family challenges. So for part of
my life, I think writing is the escape right. You
can turn off everything else, but for example, you know
(11:14):
it shows up in your writing. One of the characters
in my book is dying of cancer. So part of
it is a way to transform and to find a
safe space for your.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Head or my head anyway.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And for me, creating is really important. So the act
of creating gives me life, which then allows me to
be more present for others. I think the other thing
is learning how to say no. I have to be
much better at the yes's and the no's in my
(11:46):
life so that I can have some time for my writing.
And I think the other thing is making sure I
make time for the important things though you know, I'm
so sad that you have a deadline in two days,
because that is a heavy, heavy thing to just have that.
Not only is it heavy for oh my gosh, I
(12:06):
have to be creative and on point and give readers
what they want and all of that in a two
day block, but it also then precludes you from doing
some other things that you may want to do, whether
it's go play in the snow, which you have tons
of up there right now, or whether it's just you know,
helping out a friend that needs help shoveling the snow.
(12:29):
You might not be able to be as present for them.
So I'm trying to say yes more and more to
the right things that give me life and the people
I love life. I think one of the things you
know about me is I'm always about trying to lift
up others. That's people have lifted me up along the way,
and I just think it's both a pay it forward
(12:49):
and a pay it backward thing, So it's not always easy.
I was lucky plus this, plus the truth of it,
this story just.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Flowed right out of me.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I've never written anything so fast in my life.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Well, I'm very I'm very excited, but the release state
in May. But also you said that you were already
writing the second book in the series.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It's not a series. The next one's totally different. It
takes place largely in Washington, d C. Where I did
spend tons and tons of time, and where my other
books spent time as well, but in Great Falls, Virginia,
where I think I've driven through it once.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
But it's a really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Part of northern Virginia, very close to the Potomac Rivers
and these falls, the falls only are one hundred and
seventy feet high, but they go on forever, They cascade
forever if you haven't had a chance to be there.
And this is about a woman who is a radio
show host and she is married to a pathological liar.
(13:46):
So it plays with the idea of what it's like
to be married to somebody who's totally flawed, and how
do you find happiness within that scenario.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Well, we're going from a reliable narrator to an unreliable narrative. No,
she've know.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
And well no, no, I had not thought about that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yes, we went from very reliable narrators to a very
unreliable husband.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Exactly. This is it just it falls in line with
you with your life almost because you've gone from education
to like the nuts and bolts of publishing and writing,
and now we're all a reliable narrator and a radio
host and now we're doing something completely opposite, of course,
with a half unreliable narrator and about places that you know,
(14:32):
still keeping a touchstone to your real life. Have any
of this and uh made your writing better? You think
having the background education obviously and then knowing the nuts
and bolts, does any of it Like when you sit down,
do you be like not not? This has definitely got
to go in because this is what's in my head.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
A couple of things have really influenced my writing since
the first novel came out five years ago, and part
of that was the experience of doing the books on writing, publishing,
and marketing to see really so many other authors progress
and process and how they approached it. This time, I
was very influenced by Barbara Davis. Barbara Davis is an
(15:16):
award winning author. She's with Lake Union. I think she's
twelve books and twelve novels, all of them best sellers.
One of them is going to be a Broadway musical
in production now. One of them is going to be
a netflix. When I sit with Barbara, she talks about
having every sentence sparkle, and I never thought about that,
(15:37):
but she was all about she counts the syllable. Excuse me,
She counts the syllables in a sentence, and if she
edits that sentence, she rereads it to see if it
still has a lyric flow. And I know, you know,
you both do poetry, and to have that's so important there.
But I hadn't really thought about it in terms of prose.
(16:01):
So this time I worked much harder on sentence structure.
I worked much more deeply in terms of simile and metaphor,
wanting a whole different sense of the reading. So I
think the writing is much more compelling in this book.
(16:23):
One of my favorite sentences is the mother and daughter
have this big clash. They have a very ugly scene
one night, and then the next morning they are very
uncomfortable around each other in the kitchen. And I remember
going to bed that night, and I thought, what happens
the next morning? And I turned off the light and
(16:43):
I went They moved around the kitchen like overly cautious
bulls in a china shop of emotions, and I went,
I don't know where that came from, but the idea
that they were overly fous bulls in a China shop
of emotions, I just got up and then I wrote
(17:04):
the whole next chapter. But I think it's because I
put my head in a mindset of the best writing
I could do, and maybe I should do that all along.
But it was definitely a commitment to sparkling sentences. And
then the other part of that is, and I'm finding
(17:24):
that in this book as well, is I'm writing. I'm
not a plotter. I write the beginning, I write the end,
and then I find my way to the middle. But
I'm doing things like I've already started the appreciation notes
for the next book. I've started the book club questions
for the next book. As I write a question, as
(17:48):
I play with thoughts now the unreliable husband's name is
Seth set And as I think about Seth, the question
I want book clubs to ask.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Is could you find him lovable?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And then I went, oh, well, if I want them
to ask that, I should build the book club god
now as opposed to at the end. So I did
that with narrator, and I'm doing that again, I really think.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
That it's wonderful and I think that you said all along.
But what people don't understand is, even if it's not
your full time career, being an author is a writing career,
and in a career, you're always learning, right, You're always
going back and getting like you know, you sit through those.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Boring, those boring days where you're.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Seminars, seminars and stuff like that because you just want
to continue to learn to get better at your job.
And so for you to be like, hey, five years
ago this and then now I'm here thinking about the
that means that you just you set through your own seminars,
You created your own seminars through the books, and then
you're like, oh yeah, so I should use this in
my career. And that makes perfect sense. And I think
a lot of people don't understand. And as we love
(18:52):
our authors, right, you can read the first book and
be like wow, when you read the sixth book, they
have come so far. But because that's a career, because
they've been learning as they're going along, I think that
what do you think.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Well, I think so. And it's also what makes it fun. Right,
If I was just going to sit down and do
the same thing. I could do the same thing, So
I want to make it. What's you know, I'm going
to be selfish about it. I want to learn. I
wanted to sparkle. I want to make people cry. I
want to make people think. I want to lift people up.
(19:28):
So if I want to do all those things, I
better be good at.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
It exactly so far, I hope. I am. Oh, no,
you are.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You did a great job.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, I having I was there.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I was like, oh, good hair or anyone who can
really do a strong woman voice and delve into the
emotion because I'm not going to lie. I am not
that person. Still learning, by the way, that sentence is perfect.
I'm looking forward to reading it in the book. I'm
trying to think you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It tells you, and you know, sometimes I wish I
knew where that came from. Like boy, I want a
lot more of those sentences, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right, yeah, ye honestly, like honestly, I did an analysis
of the book about like, hey, of the book that
we're writing right now for myself, and I was like,
analyze it and tell me what's wrong with my book?
And it came back with one thing, you're writing art
write a story because your your lines are so lyrical,
(20:30):
they all have a rhythm. You have a short one
where there should be a short one, like you feel
like you're on a song. Clarry is so varied and
it's just rolling through and it's like you're writing a book.
They're going to get lost in the beauty of the language.
So not that a bad thing. I don't know when
I got when the analysis came back, it was like,
(20:52):
for this genre, don't do that mystery. So we're writing
a second book of a mystery. So they're like, I
don't know if you did.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
But I turned to a Lona and I said, listen, no,
we're gonna cut some of it, right because give the
market what it once. But we're gonna keep some of
it because that's what we want. And I feel like
that's what our fans expect from us. It's a little
bit of literary splashed into whatever we write.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
But I love when someone else goes and they find
the actual literary excellent. They make each sentence sparkle, they
think about the vocabulary they're probably wearing out of the
sources to the fact that it's falling apart. I love
that and I love reading it. And I'm like, yes,
what and then like when you read something it inspires
(21:39):
you to start writing on the side too.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Do you think that your readers are gonna come to
expect you both write beautifully? They're gonna want those words.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I gotta admit I am moving a lot faster, but
I'm doing it. But I feel like they're gonna want
me through chapters that are probably gonna want it. I
think we still put it in there, even though we don't.
It's not so sing songing, not so a poetic, but
it is still in there. There's still some some stuff
that's going on, but we're not talking about y'all. And
(22:12):
actually we're coming to the end of I wanted to
ask you a question before what came to the end.
Since you, madam, are the queen of the publishing marketing section,
do you have any advice for people who are coming
into the writer's world and they want to sell their books?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Goodness, hardest question ever.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I think.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
The thing that shocks me about writing the books on publishing, writing, publishing,
and marketing are how quickly the industry is changing. So
those books have been out maybe a year and a half.
They're called Launchpad, the countdown too, writing, marketing, publishing three
separate books. The marketing one is the one that I
(22:54):
think is still a really great base for anybody, but
it is changing so quickly. You know, social media used
to be were in either Facebook or Instagram. You could
pick your genre, you could pick your age.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Group, you knew where to go.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
And now there you know, there's certainly TikTok, there's threads,
there's new ones every day, there's books to grammars, there's oh,
there's also there's a substack, which is not social media.
But I think that every author needs to know first
and foremost why are they writing their book and who
(23:27):
are they writing their book for? So if you don't,
if you can't answer that question, nothing else needs to happen.
And I used to have a publisher who asked.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Me that question.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I was like, because I really want to write it
and it's going to be great and it's going to
be a Netflix series. No, I write it to communicate,
to connect with readers. You know, the Eves is still
getting royalties five years after and I do nothing in
terms of publicizing it. Could I do more? Sure? Would
I earn more?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
But I think that's the essential question, it's what are
why are you writing? And who are you writing for?
Then everything will flow from that. Yes, I believe you
need a social media presence, but I don't know, you know,
it's gonna there's so many other variables right now.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, there's a lot going on in the walketing world.
There's that space. And I believe, like oktak is kind
of like reigning supreme.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Right right now, I think big talk is I think,
but you know, by the time this is probably comes out,
probably won't be you know, that goes just that's how
it goes nowadays. So where can people pick up your book?
Pre order your book, find out more about you, listen
to your radio programs when it returns, and don't forget
to pick.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Up the eve Shell.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Okay, so thank you so much. You can find out
more about me at Gracesalmon dot net, net net net
dot com, Grace Salmon dot net. My name is at
the bottom of the screen.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
It's not it.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Sounds like the fish, but it is not spelled like
the fish. So Grace Salmon dot net. You can find
out anything you want about me, and you can pick
up The Reliable Narrator. It's available for pre order right
now ninety nine cents for the e book, but it's
available on Amazon and all places books are sold, and
it pubs on may Find. And I love doing book clubs.
(25:14):
I love doing podcasts. Invite me to yours.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Thank you so much for being here with us, Grace.
It feels amazing to have them back on.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I can't believe we've only known you for five years,
like it feels like we've known you forever, right.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
I feel like we went to several times like all
the things, but.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Y'all just amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And you're my first podcast about the reliable narrator, So
I couldn't be happier starting out with the two of you.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Oh wow, I'm very excited that you told us. Thank you,
Thank you. Going to get some practicing, y'all. Remember to
pick up a book or who you ordered the valuable
narrator and I guess we'll get it end the show, right. Remember,
the wisdom is all around you if you're open to
finding it and accepting it. So peace in love from
well Nona and Jade. Yes, I'm gonna say both of
(25:59):
our names today. Oh yeah, thanks for listening.
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