September 17, 2025 • 13 mins
David Drucker from The Dispatch joins Jack Armstrong following the murder of Charlie Kirk to talk about the bumping political ahead...
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is certainly about the tragic death assassination political assassination
of Charlie Kirk, but it is also much bigger than
an attack on an individual. It is an attack on
all of us. It is an attack on the American experiment.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It is And that's Governor Cox from the other day
after the Charlie Kirk assassination of Utah, and he got
a lot of play and a lot of attention across
the country, and a lot of people thought he sounded
like a rock star. And then it came across one
of our favorite pundits who thought and that ain't gonna work.
So we thought we would talk to that pundit, favorite
(00:43):
friend of the show, David Drucker. David Drucker is with
the Dispatch of senior writer, author of In Trump's Shadow,
The Battle for twenty twenty four in the Future of
the GOP.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
David Drucker, Welcome back to the Armstrong You Getty Show.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yeah, I get to be that.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
How do you like the Dispatch. By the way, I'm
one of the founding joiners. I paid the big check
right off the bat, so I could be a lifetime member.
That's how much I like the Dispatch. But how do
you like working that.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
We appreciate it. I think we're building something really great here.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
They give me the freedom, They give me the freedom
to report news, to report good stories. They they invest
in campaign travel, and I just can't say enough about
what I think we're building here. But also the sort
of trust they give me to pursue really good stuff,
and the fact that we just don't do clifbait. There's
(01:32):
nothing that we think is clickbait.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Right, Yeah, I know, I know, Stephen Jonah. One other
things is and I see this every time there's a big,
giant breaking story like Charlie Kirk's assassination, you don't see
a bunch of comments immediately out of people with the dispatch.
They wait until, you know, facts come out and things
settle down a little bit before you start shooting your
mouths off or tweeting your mouths off.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Yeah, it's a philosophy with us, And sometimes we've had
to move quicker. After the attempted assassination of Donald Trump
president at that time of presidential candidate in Butler, Pennsylvania,
we moved very quickly to at least post the news
and probably moved quicker with our follow up coverage the
(02:14):
next day. But in general, we like to make sure
we know what we're talking about, or that we don't
sort of report anything in the seat of the moment
that then just turns out to be all wrong in
terms of the context. Context is a very big deal
with us.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So I have a pretty healthy dose of bipartisan discussed
with politics all the way around, and you know, just
the tone of things for quite a while now, and
be nice if we can calm that down. And it
kind of fits it with what I saw you saying
the other day. I don't remember where I caught you,
but you were a little not so fast on.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Governor Cots of Utah.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Even though I liked what he had to say, You
don't think his tone is going to work in our
current politics?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (03:00):
No? No, I don't think I meant that. I think
what I was probably, of course, like you, I've been
sort of providing so much analysis that I don't totally
remember everything I've said. But I think what I think
the discussion you're probably referring to was a question of
whether or not Governor Fox's approach to politics can can
(03:27):
travel be on Utah, And I think I was trying
to make the particular point that one of the reasons
you can have a Governor Cox who is a Republican
in Utah is because the incentive structure that he gets
from Utah Republican voters is different than Republican voters in
other states. So I explain that to us so, and
(03:52):
I'm not just saying, I'm not saying necessarily every single
Republican leaning state would reject Governor Cox in a Republican primary,
But if you're looking for reasons why, For instance, in
twenty eighteen, Mitt Romney was able to win a Republican
primary being exactly who He was critical of Trump at
(04:13):
times enough that people noticed, so it was a regular thing,
but was still able to be the overwhelming favorite of
the Republican primary. The reason Governor Cox has been able
to succeed in Republican politics in Utah despite being critical
at times enough that everybody notices of President Trump, is
because Republican voters in Utah, although there although they are
(04:37):
supportive of Trump, and there is a strong, you know,
like sort of Maga faction or populist or just throw
Trump faction of Republicans in Utah. The broad Republican electorate
in Utah is basically a very very Republican state by
the numbers. They you know, look at politics and a
(04:57):
sort of Reagan era with a Reagan era sense of
rules and decency and decorum. You know, they look at
even the issue of illegal immigration, they look at a
little bit differently and that they want a secure border,
but you know, they believe in more immigration, and they
(05:19):
believe that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, should be you know,
treated not necessarily as criminals unless they are criminals. And
so you can be critical of Donald Trump in Utah
and win a Republican primary. Now, I don't think that
you can be an opponent of Donald Trump and win
a Republican primary in Utah. They still would prefer Trump
(05:44):
as president because he's a Republican and more likely to
push conservative policies and support conservative values. But they will
brook criticism and they will see that as a sign
of leadership. And yes, there are Republicans in Utah that
will run against that or speak out against that as
being insufficiently conservative and too critical of Trump when we
(06:10):
should be critical of the Democrats instead, they will say,
but Utah is just a different sort of place and
it gives Governor Talks, you know. And I'm not taking
away from his willingness to speak out in this way,
but what I am saying is he does not have
to now look over his shoulder in a primary for
(06:31):
future office should he choose to run for another office
after his time as governor is up, and he does
not have to worry about a complete revolt of the
Republican Party in Utah because of the things that he
has said.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Do you think he has any interest in running for president,
like trying to beat up JD.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Vans for the nomination.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Well, I don't know, because I haven't asked him, and
I never put it past the idea that somebody that
rises to the level of governor or Senator Dogcatcher doesn't
have it in their hand that they should be president.
I don't know that a Republican like Governor Talks can
win a Republican primary against a combative populist like JD.
(07:14):
Vance or you know, pick somebody else, because I think
Republicans broadly, and particularly when you're looking in a lot
of these early states, but even beyond that, have would
prefer somebody that they is less conciliatory and appears to
(07:35):
be more of a fighter. One of the yeah, I mean,
I mean think one of the reasons that a lot
of Republican voters may at times look past Donald Trump's
provocative language and behavior, even though they don't agree with it,
is because they say to him, says, well, he's a fighter.
He's fighting for us. He is not allowing the Democrats
(07:58):
to do the sort of unfair thing that we believe
for years they were doing, and that the more sort
of rules following the Korum following statesman like Republicans were allowing.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Them to do.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
This idea of traditional conservatism where we're gonna again, I mean,
Democrats will look at this differently, right, but like if
you're an old school conservative of the mold Reagan was
plenty of fighter. I mean, let's not forget that. But
this idea that listen, there are just rules we don't break,
and even if they break them, we're going to argue
(08:32):
that they shouldn't have broken the rules. But we're not
going to do what they do. That's just out of
fashion right now, Republicans. If you look at how Republicans
conduct themselves broadly speaking, meaning lawmakers and the president, they
really have adopted many of the tactics of the left
and the Democratic Party, at least those that the Democratic
(08:56):
Party and the left practiced, you know in my lifetime,
in the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties, in the
early offs that Republicans used to complain about. And now
what they've what they've done is adopt those tactics. And
you know, whether it's boycott's or cancel culture or stretching
the bounds of executive authority by the president. I mean,
(09:22):
in all these ways, and so.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
And the people.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I can just hear people texting or saying to their
radio right now, yes and now, and we control all
three branches as of government from doing that.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
So it's been successful.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yeah, no, I think so. And look I think for
you know, Republicans look at it this way too. I
mean to be and I didn't. I don't think my
other comments were unfair, but you know, the old thing,
to be fair, they watched Bill Clinton have an affair
in the Oval office and lie about it. Democrats didn't
have any problems with that. They never complained about it.
They never said Bill Clinton should resign, they never said
it was wrong. They basically were tribal well Bill Clinton's
(09:58):
our guy. He's doing it good job. Voters seem to
like the job he's doing. Look what we've won because
of Bill Clinton, and so that's okay. And and they,
you know, from a conservative point of view, they've seen
all sorts of things like that. And so I'm not
saying the right answer is therefore to act like them.
(10:20):
But if you talk to Republicans, they're going to say,
why are you on our case? Democrats have been doing
this for years. The broader analytical point I was making
was Republicans in a sense of, well, if you can't
beat them, join them. Right. That's what they did.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right, How do we whether it's political violence? Though just
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
X's and o's tactics in politics, how do we stop
the race to the bottom? Though each side thinks the
other side fights dirtier than them, so we need to
adopt their tactics.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Both sides think that. I mean, so where do you
end up? I mean, you don't go anywhere good with
that attitude.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
It's the biggest consistency in my twenty plus years of
covering politics, Both Republican operatives and Democratic operatives, never mind
elected officials, consistently tell me the other side. The other
side plays dirtier than us. I wish we played as
dirty as them, then we would win as much as
they did.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
That's incredible.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
The only way that any of this stops is somebody
or both sides stop keeping score and just stop. You know,
my this is I don't normally do personal anecdotes here,
but I feel like it's like the best analogy I have.
Some years back, four years ago or whatever, we were
celebrating my in law's fiftieth wedding anniversary, and anyway, the
(11:37):
rabbi who married my wife and I is a a
a relative a couple times removed something like that, Jimmy
Kesseler who passed away since. But Rabbi Kessler was there
and we were, you know, asking him because he had
been married fifty plus years, and I think my wife
or I asked him, like, how do you do it?
You know, we've been married at this point maybe ten years,
(11:59):
nine years. I don't know how how did you get
to fifty plus years? Then he just looked at Fuss
and he said, you have to sometimes you have to
know when to punt. And that sticks with me because
you know, that's.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Good marriage advice.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Right there.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
If if nobody tells anything else from this, that is
a good marriage advice.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Yeah. But I mean, if you look at the United
States of America like an extended big family, we never.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Punt, well, neither side never punts. You go for it
on fourth down always.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Yeah, I mean, if that's not to say that what
the assassination of Charlie Kirk wasn't a distinct act with this,
with with the suspect doing it for distinct political reasons.
But when I'm asked the question where does his end, well,
it either ends very badly or at some point people
(12:47):
stop keeping score and say stop.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, okay, well I think I know. I'm afraid we're
out of time, David. I don't know if I like
our chances at least in the short term on that,
but appreciate your talk today. D Drunker of the Dispatch,
thanks for coming on, David Kin, Thank you, Armstrong and
Getty
This is certainly about the tragic death assassination political assassination
of Charlie Kirk, but it is also much bigger than
an attack on an individual. It is an attack on
all of us. It is an attack on the American experiment.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It is And that's Governor Cox from the other day
after the Charlie Kirk assassination of Utah, and he got
a lot of play and a lot of attention across
the country, and a lot of people thought he sounded
like a rock star. And then it came across one
of our favorite pundits who thought and that ain't gonna work.
So we thought we would talk to that pundit, favorite
(00:43):
friend of the show, David Drucker. David Drucker is with
the Dispatch of senior writer, author of In Trump's Shadow,
The Battle for twenty twenty four in the Future of
the GOP.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
David Drucker, Welcome back to the Armstrong You Getty Show.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yeah, I get to be that.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
How do you like the Dispatch. By the way, I'm
one of the founding joiners. I paid the big check
right off the bat, so I could be a lifetime member.
That's how much I like the Dispatch. But how do
you like working that.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
We appreciate it. I think we're building something really great here.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
They give me the freedom, They give me the freedom
to report news, to report good stories. They they invest
in campaign travel, and I just can't say enough about
what I think we're building here. But also the sort
of trust they give me to pursue really good stuff,
and the fact that we just don't do clifbait. There's
(01:32):
nothing that we think is clickbait.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Right, Yeah, I know, I know, Stephen Jonah. One other
things is and I see this every time there's a big,
giant breaking story like Charlie Kirk's assassination, you don't see
a bunch of comments immediately out of people with the dispatch.
They wait until, you know, facts come out and things
settle down a little bit before you start shooting your
mouths off or tweeting your mouths off.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Yeah, it's a philosophy with us, And sometimes we've had
to move quicker. After the attempted assassination of Donald Trump
president at that time of presidential candidate in Butler, Pennsylvania,
we moved very quickly to at least post the news
and probably moved quicker with our follow up coverage the
(02:14):
next day. But in general, we like to make sure
we know what we're talking about, or that we don't
sort of report anything in the seat of the moment
that then just turns out to be all wrong in
terms of the context. Context is a very big deal
with us.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So I have a pretty healthy dose of bipartisan discussed
with politics all the way around, and you know, just
the tone of things for quite a while now, and
be nice if we can calm that down. And it
kind of fits it with what I saw you saying
the other day. I don't remember where I caught you,
but you were a little not so fast on.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Governor Cots of Utah.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Even though I liked what he had to say, You
don't think his tone is going to work in our
current politics?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (03:00):
No? No, I don't think I meant that. I think
what I was probably, of course, like you, I've been
sort of providing so much analysis that I don't totally
remember everything I've said. But I think what I think
the discussion you're probably referring to was a question of
whether or not Governor Fox's approach to politics can can
(03:27):
travel be on Utah, And I think I was trying
to make the particular point that one of the reasons
you can have a Governor Cox who is a Republican
in Utah is because the incentive structure that he gets
from Utah Republican voters is different than Republican voters in
other states. So I explain that to us so, and
(03:52):
I'm not just saying, I'm not saying necessarily every single
Republican leaning state would reject Governor Cox in a Republican primary,
But if you're looking for reasons why, For instance, in
twenty eighteen, Mitt Romney was able to win a Republican
primary being exactly who He was critical of Trump at
(04:13):
times enough that people noticed, so it was a regular thing,
but was still able to be the overwhelming favorite of
the Republican primary. The reason Governor Cox has been able
to succeed in Republican politics in Utah despite being critical
at times enough that everybody notices of President Trump, is
because Republican voters in Utah, although there although they are
(04:37):
supportive of Trump, and there is a strong, you know,
like sort of Maga faction or populist or just throw
Trump faction of Republicans in Utah. The broad Republican electorate
in Utah is basically a very very Republican state by
the numbers. They you know, look at politics and a
(04:57):
sort of Reagan era with a Reagan era sense of
rules and decency and decorum. You know, they look at
even the issue of illegal immigration, they look at a
little bit differently and that they want a secure border,
but you know, they believe in more immigration, and they
(05:19):
believe that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, should be you know,
treated not necessarily as criminals unless they are criminals. And
so you can be critical of Donald Trump in Utah
and win a Republican primary. Now, I don't think that
you can be an opponent of Donald Trump and win
a Republican primary in Utah. They still would prefer Trump
(05:44):
as president because he's a Republican and more likely to
push conservative policies and support conservative values. But they will
brook criticism and they will see that as a sign
of leadership. And yes, there are Republicans in Utah that
will run against that or speak out against that as
being insufficiently conservative and too critical of Trump when we
(06:10):
should be critical of the Democrats instead, they will say,
but Utah is just a different sort of place and
it gives Governor Talks, you know. And I'm not taking
away from his willingness to speak out in this way,
but what I am saying is he does not have
to now look over his shoulder in a primary for
(06:31):
future office should he choose to run for another office
after his time as governor is up, and he does
not have to worry about a complete revolt of the
Republican Party in Utah because of the things that he
has said.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Do you think he has any interest in running for president,
like trying to beat up JD.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Vans for the nomination.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Well, I don't know, because I haven't asked him, and
I never put it past the idea that somebody that
rises to the level of governor or Senator Dogcatcher doesn't
have it in their hand that they should be president.
I don't know that a Republican like Governor Talks can
win a Republican primary against a combative populist like JD.
(07:14):
Vance or you know, pick somebody else, because I think
Republicans broadly, and particularly when you're looking in a lot
of these early states, but even beyond that, have would
prefer somebody that they is less conciliatory and appears to
(07:35):
be more of a fighter. One of the yeah, I mean,
I mean think one of the reasons that a lot
of Republican voters may at times look past Donald Trump's
provocative language and behavior, even though they don't agree with it,
is because they say to him, says, well, he's a fighter.
He's fighting for us. He is not allowing the Democrats
(07:58):
to do the sort of unfair thing that we believe
for years they were doing, and that the more sort
of rules following the Korum following statesman like Republicans were allowing.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Them to do.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
This idea of traditional conservatism where we're gonna again, I mean,
Democrats will look at this differently, right, but like if
you're an old school conservative of the mold Reagan was
plenty of fighter. I mean, let's not forget that. But
this idea that listen, there are just rules we don't break,
and even if they break them, we're going to argue
(08:32):
that they shouldn't have broken the rules. But we're not
going to do what they do. That's just out of
fashion right now, Republicans. If you look at how Republicans
conduct themselves broadly speaking, meaning lawmakers and the president, they
really have adopted many of the tactics of the left
and the Democratic Party, at least those that the Democratic
(08:56):
Party and the left practiced, you know in my lifetime,
in the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties, in the
early offs that Republicans used to complain about. And now
what they've what they've done is adopt those tactics. And
you know, whether it's boycott's or cancel culture or stretching
the bounds of executive authority by the president. I mean,
(09:22):
in all these ways, and so.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
And the people.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I can just hear people texting or saying to their
radio right now, yes and now, and we control all
three branches as of government from doing that.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
So it's been successful.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yeah, no, I think so. And look I think for
you know, Republicans look at it this way too. I
mean to be and I didn't. I don't think my
other comments were unfair, but you know, the old thing,
to be fair, they watched Bill Clinton have an affair
in the Oval office and lie about it. Democrats didn't
have any problems with that. They never complained about it.
They never said Bill Clinton should resign, they never said
it was wrong. They basically were tribal well Bill Clinton's
(09:58):
our guy. He's doing it good job. Voters seem to
like the job he's doing. Look what we've won because
of Bill Clinton, and so that's okay. And and they,
you know, from a conservative point of view, they've seen
all sorts of things like that. And so I'm not
saying the right answer is therefore to act like them.
(10:20):
But if you talk to Republicans, they're going to say,
why are you on our case? Democrats have been doing
this for years. The broader analytical point I was making
was Republicans in a sense of, well, if you can't
beat them, join them. Right. That's what they did.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right, How do we whether it's political violence? Though just
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
X's and o's tactics in politics, how do we stop
the race to the bottom? Though each side thinks the
other side fights dirtier than them, so we need to
adopt their tactics.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Both sides think that. I mean, so where do you
end up? I mean, you don't go anywhere good with
that attitude.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
It's the biggest consistency in my twenty plus years of
covering politics, Both Republican operatives and Democratic operatives, never mind
elected officials, consistently tell me the other side. The other
side plays dirtier than us. I wish we played as
dirty as them, then we would win as much as
they did.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
That's incredible.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
The only way that any of this stops is somebody
or both sides stop keeping score and just stop. You know,
my this is I don't normally do personal anecdotes here,
but I feel like it's like the best analogy I have.
Some years back, four years ago or whatever, we were
celebrating my in law's fiftieth wedding anniversary, and anyway, the
(11:37):
rabbi who married my wife and I is a a
a relative a couple times removed something like that, Jimmy
Kesseler who passed away since. But Rabbi Kessler was there
and we were, you know, asking him because he had
been married fifty plus years, and I think my wife
or I asked him, like, how do you do it?
You know, we've been married at this point maybe ten years,
(11:59):
nine years. I don't know how how did you get
to fifty plus years? Then he just looked at Fuss
and he said, you have to sometimes you have to
know when to punt. And that sticks with me because
you know, that's.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Good marriage advice.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Right there.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
If if nobody tells anything else from this, that is
a good marriage advice.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Yeah. But I mean, if you look at the United
States of America like an extended big family, we never.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Punt, well, neither side never punts. You go for it
on fourth down always.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Yeah, I mean, if that's not to say that what
the assassination of Charlie Kirk wasn't a distinct act with this,
with with the suspect doing it for distinct political reasons.
But when I'm asked the question where does his end, well,
it either ends very badly or at some point people
(12:47):
stop keeping score and say stop.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, okay, well I think I know. I'm afraid we're
out of time, David. I don't know if I like
our chances at least in the short term on that,
but appreciate your talk today. D Drunker of the Dispatch,
thanks for coming on, David Kin, Thank you, Armstrong and
Getty
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