July 17, 2024 • 16 mins
Long-time friend of The Armstrong & Getty Show, The Hoover Institution's Lanhee Chen, joined Jack & Joe from The Republican National Convention to talk about Trump's surprise appearance at the convention, the uniting of the new GOP, the significance of the Teamster President's RNC appearance and why voters are turning against Biden.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, this is fun Lone Hee Chen, longtime friend of
the Armstrong and Getty shows stopping Baylon He of course,
Daven Diane Steffy, Fellow in American Public.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Policy Studies at the Hoover Institution and the.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Director of Domestic Policy Studies at Stanford University, Lani, how
are you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Oh, it's great to be with you guys here in Milwaukee.
Is this the first time we've done this in person?
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I think it.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I think it might be.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Well, this is great. I think were you in the
building last night for the moment?
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It was electric.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
I mean, you know, it's funny because there were a
lot of big moments last night. You had the Teamster's president.
Was the last time the Teamster's president spoke at a
Republican convention? Yeah, I don't think it's ever happened. You
at the revelation of the vice presidential nominee. But all
of that I thought paled in comparison to when they
first showed my former president coming down the tunnel and
then coming into the actual arena, And the level of
(00:46):
emotion that he exhibited was reffer too.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, you know, he has talked about some interviewers have
talked about him being a changed man. I thought, you know,
I don't know at his age, blah blah blah. He
was shot, which something will change it. But he looked different. Yeah,
I mean I've never seen his eyes well up with
tears like that before.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Yeah, I mean, if there is emotional experience for a
lot of people, right, and and with with Lee Greenwood
singing Proud to be an American in the background, it
was it was a this one thing that Donald Trump
has always gotten right as a stage craft of conventions,
and and that can be tough to pull off. I mean,
I was the guy who had to put the program
together in twenty twelve when Mitt Romney was the nominated
(01:26):
say it's a hard thing to get all the pieces right. Well,
it was off as jiv and transparent. But last lag
was amazing. It was really well done.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I I was hold together until the crowd started chanting fight, fight, fight,
Oh my god. Yeah, that is something.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And can you believe towards the end of last week,
we were thinking this might be a sedate affair and
lacking a bit in news.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
As a student of history, can you put.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Into words how extraordinary this political moment is in so
many ways. I mean, between the assassination attempt, you know,
Trump's come back, Joe Biden's clearly declining mental faculties, and
the rest of it.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
These are crazy times.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, you know, I did meet the press on Sunday
and one of the things I was reflecting on.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That's funny they didn't ask us, Nathan which next week. Yeah,
you did a good time.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
One of the things that I was reflecting on was,
you know, when Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, he wore a
coat and on the inside of the coat was inscribed
one Country, one destiny. And we're at this point now
where our country could go in one of two directions.
As I view, we could go the direction that we
had between nineteen sixty three and nineteen eighty one, where
you had the assassination of a president Booke, ended by
(02:39):
the attempted assassination of another president, and several assassination attempts
in between. Gerald Ford there were at least two attempts,
serious attempts on his life, and it's like, do we
want to go down that pathway of political violence and
division or do we go in a different direction. And
so far, at least the tone that we're seeing out
of our politics, out of everyone from the former president
to the current president. Is an attempt, I think, to
(03:01):
try and move in a different direction. Now will we
stay there? That? I don't know, but history tells us
that we've seen some pretty dark times before.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Well, people are Here's my I opened the show with
this yesterday. Here's my axiom for the whole thing. This
doesn't end until sides start calling out their own people. Yeah,
and so far, I haven't seen that. I mean, Joe
Biden's willing to talk about things on the other side,
Charlottesville or whatever, but none of the stuff on his side,
and the same I'm hearing the same out of Republicans.
So and to start calling out your own side.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I think.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I think you're right. I think that is that is
the big difference. And our politics have become so tribal.
It's hard to imagine that happening, you know, And I
don't know. I mean, I would hope that people would
be able to call spade a spade, but I haven't.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I you're right, I haven't seen it.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I was pretty disappointed. Joe Biden brought up the ridiculousness
of it. He promises a bloodbath behind that Lester whole interview,
all that he got.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
That's why he got pressed by Lester.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
I think on the bullseye comment, right, I mean, and
and it was an unfortunate choice of words. Clearly glad
to see that he admitted that, but you know, he's
still got some Democrats out there who are unwilling to
admit that that.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
He even said that.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I want to talk more about Biden's stain in the
race in his campaign in a couple of minutes. But
first you referenced Sean O'Brien, the head of the Teamsters,
speaking of Yeah, the Republican Convention, which is an extraordinary thing. Crazy, Yeah,
if you're not familiar with it, I heard it pointed
out that this is the first time, and smarter guys
and me pointed out, well, that's because there were mobsters
like for decades and decades and that.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Would have been weird.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
But anyway, having said that, the direction of the Republican Party,
it's changing coalition is so interesting right now.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yeah, I've talked a lot about this, which is that
the one of the things that Donald Trump ushered in
was a more populist Republican Party. Whether you think about
issues like trade or even taxes right, or lots of
different things. Donald Trump had a very different perspective on them.
Selecting jd. Vance essentially made sure that that perspective is
(04:58):
going to be the predominant perspective in the Republican Party
for the next several I don't know what it is, right,
I whant I call it decades?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Maybe?
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I mean the vice presidential nominees thirty nine years old, So,
I mean it's a remarkable thing. But we are seeing
this transition. The Republican Party is increasingly a working class,
working American party, and that was not the case for
much of my childhood, much of my coming up in politics,
we were the Party of Wall Street and the Party
of corporations.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Country club, Yeah, country club.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
And it's a very different Republican Party and we're seeing
that on full display here.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It was obviously uncomfortable for folks who saw the O'Brien
speech last night when he he pivoted from what you
describe as pro worker to just blatantly anti corporation, which
did not sit well with a lot of the cut
You know, to me, that's like you to be pro
child is to be anti parents. It's not the way
the world works. Yeah, and look, you have a lot
(05:48):
of things. I mean, you guys know, I think about
healthcare a lot. And in healthcare, you know, some of
these companies have been responsible for some of the biggest
innovations we've seen in healthcare over the last couple of
years in terms of people who don't get access to
affordable care, and a lot of that's been led by
by corporations. But it's not a zero sum game, and
I think that there's a danger to thinking about our
economy that way.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
But we'll see.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I mean, the politics of last night, I'm just remarkable
to have the head of the Teamsters here. I mean,
that was just it was like my mind was blown.
It will be blown for weeks to come way in
a good way or a what the hell way? No,
I mean, look, I think it's good. The Republican Party
needs to expand its appeal. Now there are many ways
of doing that. Recently, the appeal has been expanded to
(06:30):
working Americans, as I noted earlier. Ideally it would also
be expanded to newer Americans, and I think for some
newer Americans the Republican Party has its appeal as well.
But I'm all for growing the party and growing the tent.
I just think that to your point, once you start
talking about how awful businesses are, I mean, that's when
you lose me a little bit.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Right of course, although from thirty thousand feet, as they say,
it struck me as a moment of Hey, let's concentrate
on what we have in common. Well, we disagree with
this guy and a lot of stuff, but we agree
on some stuff, and so we've in right. Because I
was thinking, if you're going to be a majority party,
like the Obama coalition had a lot of groups that
didn't agree on a lot of things. Yeah, but if
you're going to be a majority party, you have to
(07:09):
bring in together those groups. I think that's a great point.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
And by the way, the reason why the Democrats are
having so much to get to your point about why
the Democrats are having so much difficulty now with what
they do with their nomination process is because that Obama
coalition has fallen apart. And nothing does better in holding
coalitions together than winning. You saw it with Republicans when
you had the Reagan coalition. Bush had a slightly different
(07:33):
coalition that was a different coalition, and that fell apart.
Once the Bush presidency ended. Nothing helps people stay copaesthetic
like winning. And I think the reason why that coalition
is falling apart because people are looking at the president's campaign.
They're saying, this guy can't win. And I think for
that reason, people are starting to desert the ship. It's
not pretty.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Do they Are they turning against Biden because he can't
win or because his brain don't work? I have a
feeling that if he was up by ten points, nobody'd
be talking about his brain. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I mean, it is all about elective politics. It's all
about what are the polls showing us? And I have
to believe his advisors are seeing the same polls that
President Trump's advisors are seeing and that the public are seeing,
which suggests that they are little to few to no
pathways to victory for the Democratic ticket.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Well, David Axrod keeps saying he thinks his inner circle
is keeping the polls from him. New York Times alluded
to that today too. Is is Joe Biden looking at
the actual.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Attem might look? I mean, how crazy an allegation is that.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
He does keep referring to polls that show him up right,
I have no doubt there are polls that show him up.
I'm just not sure that they're conducted by credible.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Pollster, Doctor Jill Dosom.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I mean, I just as as a candidate, one of
the things you have to do is you have to
be inquisitive about where is the race right now? Because
we all, I mean, I've been a candidate before. You
want to think as positively as you can about the race,
but you got to know where things are well in
a realistic view, you know. And I just I just don't.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I don't know if he's getting the full picture, if
it's being kept from him, if he doesn't want to
see the full picture.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
But the data seems pretty clear to me. Well, everything's
going on right now.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Every good and great leader I've ever run into wants
to know the bad news. Of course, you demand bad
news first. You know, you're, like us, a human being,
he says, as if that's some sort of observation, and
a family man.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You ask you right, exactly, But.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
If you've dealt at all with the decline of age
or dementia or Parkinson's or anything like that, you know
it only goes in one direction. And on the political
side of things, in three months, it's going to be
absolutely tragic for the Democrats. But putting that aside, there
is no chance Joe Biden is anything but significantly worse.
(09:45):
My mom died of complications from Parkinson's and by the
time we are in October, it's going to be really
hard to watch. And it's difficult for us as non
political pros to process that anybody think that's a better
idea than saying, hey, let's go quick, let's figure out
if Gretchen or Gavin or Jos Shapiro, who gave a
(10:06):
lovely speech the other day, if they're a better option.
It's difficult for me to understand how you could stick
with that sinking shift.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
So let me give you the argument that I'm sure
the Biden team is giving to a lot of people
right now. And by the way, this is an axiom
that I would say in politics is widely believed. You
always rather the devil you know to the devil you
don't sure, okay, because you want the predictability of the
liabilities you have in front of you versus the non
(10:34):
predictability of liabilities that come from a new candidate who's
not been vetted. And so, by the way, I've talked
to Democrats in that circle who say this to me
that you know, we don't know what's out there about
Gretchen Witmer. We don't know what's out there about Gavin
Is or or the vice president. Even so we don't
for that reason alone, we would prefer to go with
(10:56):
the horse we have.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Now.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I think more and more Democrats, and even some in
very high levels of the Democratic National Committee are wondering
whether that is the right strategy or because we're all
seeing the same thing. Right.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
We all watch TV, we all see what's going on.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
So I feel like even during this week when all
the attention is here in Milwaukee, there are lots of
conversations going on about what does the future of the
Democratic Party look like, what's going to come next?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Can we precipitate a change. We've talked about this before.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
I'm still not really convinced they will make a change.
I just think that you do not force a incumbent
president out of anything unless the president himself comes to
the conclusion because he sees the.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Data, he can't win. As you sit here, what's your
lead story of the convention so far?
Speaker 4 (11:48):
The unity of the Republican Party, This is a party
that's been pretty at various points divided since twenty sixteen,
since Donald Trump first became the nominee, and of unity.
I mean, I've talked to lots of Republicans over the
last day and a half i've been here, including a
number of Republicans who were very skeptical of Trump at
(12:09):
various points. And even if they're skeptical, their view is,
you know, he's the nominee and I'm going to support him.
And I'm hearing a level of you. You got Nicki
Haley coming tonight, right, you're the keynote speaker tonight.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And you had Tucker Carlson sitting the two seats away
from the president last night.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
That's an interesting way uniting the tribes, right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
The Evance once called him America's hitler, and he's his
running mad Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah, hey, you know what, the former president loves a
redemption story. Yeah, And we've seen it over and over again,
and this is just the latest example. The other thing
I'll note is that you couldn't have picked a VP
more different than Pence. If you think about the profile
of these two men, and you think political profile and
actual profile in terms of appearance, age, mannerisms couldn't be
(12:49):
more different, and I think that that's intentional, that's not
an accident.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
What you would know this, what is the latest date
Biden could step down and you could like even conceivably
change to a different candidate.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So I think there's two issues.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
There's one that's like a democratic rules of the Democratic
Party issue, and that one's coming up. I think that
was like the next couple of weeks they've got to
figure out because they got to nominate, They got to
formally nominate at the convention, and I think they were
talking about doing a roll call ahead of that to
get it. For some reason, there's a ballot issue in
Ohio or somewhere where they can't get on the ballot
unless they have a named Democratic nominee by X date.
(13:23):
So what I was gonna say is there's the Democratic
Party rules issue, and then there's the legal ballot access questions.
I don't know well enough to know what the exact
deadlines are, but I can't imagine we've got too much
long so weeks.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, probably.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
And the reason I bring that up is because we
were discussing yesterday. Isn't that the only way the Democrats
could like turn the page and start a new conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
The forcing function is a different.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Candidate, because how would you run against Trump at this point?
Since he's just been shot, right, You can't demonize him,
can you, Which.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Is the hard message, and it makes it very hard
to run a campaign. I mean, you know, they had
to pull everything down for a couple of days. My
guess is they'll go back to business as usual soon,
but they are. They're going to be in a tough spot.
But to get back to the conversation we had, you
know before the break, given how polarized we are, they'll.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Be able to have.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
I mean, they'll they'll go right back to attacking Trump
within a matter.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
You think they'll be calling him an existential threat to
Democrat I think.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I think they'll be. I think some will.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
I think some member Democrat members of Congress are completely unhinged. Well, yeah,
the completely unhinged about about Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Well, and I was going to say, in spite of
the assassination attempt, and where you think that might push
the discussion. A desperate beast is not prone to reasonableness,
that's right, and the Democratic Party is a desperate beast.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
This I mean, I would not surprise me if you
started to hear that.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
I mean, uh, you know what I what I come
back to is when you say this person has to
be stopped at all costs, what do you think is
going to happen? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Right? What do you think is going to happen? Right?
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And to be fair, I think that that language hasn't
been used by all Democrats. But you know, people conveniently
overlook that there are some who've been engaging in that
kind of dialogue for years.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's a difficult thing, the question of.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
If your rhetoric incites the most mentally disturbed tenth of
a percentage of the population, is that necessarily unacceptable rhetoric?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
But both sides have got to quit saying that if
the other side wins this election, we'll never have another election, right,
because that's crazy thing it is, It is absurd.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And the blood bath thing, I mean, if I were
to take Joe Biden's word, he at his word. He
repeated it on Lester Holds again last night that Trump
vowed a bloodbath if he lost, virtually anything would.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Be justified, right right, Well, again, we got to figure
out a way to get the rhetoric toned down. I'm
not enthusiastic it's going to happen, but I think the
sanctity of our republic depends on it.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
This week at the convention, do you think speeches have
been significantly changed or will be significantly changed from what
they were going.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
To be or not? It doesn't feel like there's been
significant change. Maybe you know there's been some nipping in tucking.
There always is. I mean again, I was engaged in
this process. You know, there's always a nitthing in tucking.
The big question is going to be what Donald Trump's
speech sounds like on their day, right, I'm watching for it.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, did you follow the story? Ron Johnson Wisconsin get
pretty strong.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Speech the teleprompter loading the Ron.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
They loaded the pre shooting speech by accident. You know
what do you think that's a bus No?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I mean that can happen. It's chaotic back there in
the production of production.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
How about on the fly you leave out the most
inflammatory stuff. I mean, come on, you don't have to
read it. Right, Yeah, we've barely got a minute until
a heartbreak. So the key question who is the smartest
person among major news personalities and who's the dumbest?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Oh my gosh, how long do we have. I gonna
get in trouble if you make me answer that question.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You work for NBC. If you run into Lester, tell
him nice job on the interview. Not only did he
ask hard questions, but he followed up ye Biden last night.
He's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
It wouldn't be a chat with Lanhi Chen if we
didn't ask at least one.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Incredibly unfair question. Hey, we really look forward to chatting
more throughout.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, thanks for being.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Thanks for having me. Yeah, oh our pleasure.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Yeah,
Well, this is fun Lone Hee Chen, longtime friend of
the Armstrong and Getty shows stopping Baylon He of course,
Daven Diane Steffy, Fellow in American Public.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Policy Studies at the Hoover Institution and the.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Director of Domestic Policy Studies at Stanford University, Lani, how
are you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Oh, it's great to be with you guys here in Milwaukee.
Is this the first time we've done this in person?
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I think it.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I think it might be.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Well, this is great. I think were you in the
building last night for the moment?
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It was electric.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
I mean, you know, it's funny because there were a
lot of big moments last night. You had the Teamster's president.
Was the last time the Teamster's president spoke at a
Republican convention? Yeah, I don't think it's ever happened. You
at the revelation of the vice presidential nominee. But all
of that I thought paled in comparison to when they
first showed my former president coming down the tunnel and
then coming into the actual arena, And the level of
(00:46):
emotion that he exhibited was reffer too.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, you know, he has talked about some interviewers have
talked about him being a changed man. I thought, you know,
I don't know at his age, blah blah blah. He
was shot, which something will change it. But he looked different. Yeah,
I mean I've never seen his eyes well up with
tears like that before.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Yeah, I mean, if there is emotional experience for a
lot of people, right, and and with with Lee Greenwood
singing Proud to be an American in the background, it
was it was a this one thing that Donald Trump
has always gotten right as a stage craft of conventions,
and and that can be tough to pull off. I mean,
I was the guy who had to put the program
together in twenty twelve when Mitt Romney was the nominated
(01:26):
say it's a hard thing to get all the pieces right. Well,
it was off as jiv and transparent. But last lag
was amazing. It was really well done.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I I was hold together until the crowd started chanting fight, fight, fight,
Oh my god. Yeah, that is something.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And can you believe towards the end of last week,
we were thinking this might be a sedate affair and
lacking a bit in news.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
As a student of history, can you put.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Into words how extraordinary this political moment is in so
many ways. I mean, between the assassination attempt, you know,
Trump's come back, Joe Biden's clearly declining mental faculties, and
the rest of it.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
These are crazy times.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, you know, I did meet the press on Sunday
and one of the things I was reflecting on.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That's funny they didn't ask us, Nathan which next week. Yeah,
you did a good time.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
One of the things that I was reflecting on was,
you know, when Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, he wore a
coat and on the inside of the coat was inscribed
one Country, one destiny. And we're at this point now
where our country could go in one of two directions.
As I view, we could go the direction that we
had between nineteen sixty three and nineteen eighty one, where
you had the assassination of a president Booke, ended by
(02:39):
the attempted assassination of another president, and several assassination attempts
in between. Gerald Ford there were at least two attempts,
serious attempts on his life, and it's like, do we
want to go down that pathway of political violence and
division or do we go in a different direction. And
so far, at least the tone that we're seeing out
of our politics, out of everyone from the former president
to the current president. Is an attempt, I think, to
(03:01):
try and move in a different direction. Now will we
stay there? That? I don't know, but history tells us
that we've seen some pretty dark times before.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Well, people are Here's my I opened the show with
this yesterday. Here's my axiom for the whole thing. This
doesn't end until sides start calling out their own people. Yeah,
and so far, I haven't seen that. I mean, Joe
Biden's willing to talk about things on the other side,
Charlottesville or whatever, but none of the stuff on his side,
and the same I'm hearing the same out of Republicans.
So and to start calling out your own side.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I think.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I think you're right. I think that is that is
the big difference. And our politics have become so tribal.
It's hard to imagine that happening, you know, And I
don't know. I mean, I would hope that people would
be able to call spade a spade, but I haven't.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I you're right, I haven't seen it.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I was pretty disappointed. Joe Biden brought up the ridiculousness
of it. He promises a bloodbath behind that Lester whole interview,
all that he got.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
That's why he got pressed by Lester.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
I think on the bullseye comment, right, I mean, and
and it was an unfortunate choice of words. Clearly glad
to see that he admitted that, but you know, he's
still got some Democrats out there who are unwilling to
admit that that.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
He even said that.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I want to talk more about Biden's stain in the
race in his campaign in a couple of minutes. But
first you referenced Sean O'Brien, the head of the Teamsters,
speaking of Yeah, the Republican Convention, which is an extraordinary thing. Crazy, Yeah,
if you're not familiar with it, I heard it pointed
out that this is the first time, and smarter guys
and me pointed out, well, that's because there were mobsters
like for decades and decades and that.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Would have been weird.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
But anyway, having said that, the direction of the Republican Party,
it's changing coalition is so interesting right now.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yeah, I've talked a lot about this, which is that
the one of the things that Donald Trump ushered in
was a more populist Republican Party. Whether you think about
issues like trade or even taxes right, or lots of
different things. Donald Trump had a very different perspective on them.
Selecting jd. Vance essentially made sure that that perspective is
(04:58):
going to be the predominant perspective in the Republican Party
for the next several I don't know what it is, right,
I whant I call it decades?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Maybe?
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I mean the vice presidential nominees thirty nine years old, So,
I mean it's a remarkable thing. But we are seeing
this transition. The Republican Party is increasingly a working class,
working American party, and that was not the case for
much of my childhood, much of my coming up in politics,
we were the Party of Wall Street and the Party
of corporations.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Country club, Yeah, country club.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
And it's a very different Republican Party and we're seeing
that on full display here.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It was obviously uncomfortable for folks who saw the O'Brien
speech last night when he he pivoted from what you
describe as pro worker to just blatantly anti corporation, which
did not sit well with a lot of the cut
You know, to me, that's like you to be pro
child is to be anti parents. It's not the way
the world works. Yeah, and look, you have a lot
(05:48):
of things. I mean, you guys know, I think about
healthcare a lot. And in healthcare, you know, some of
these companies have been responsible for some of the biggest
innovations we've seen in healthcare over the last couple of
years in terms of people who don't get access to
affordable care, and a lot of that's been led by
by corporations. But it's not a zero sum game, and
I think that there's a danger to thinking about our
economy that way.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
But we'll see.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I mean, the politics of last night, I'm just remarkable
to have the head of the Teamsters here. I mean,
that was just it was like my mind was blown.
It will be blown for weeks to come way in
a good way or a what the hell way? No,
I mean, look, I think it's good. The Republican Party
needs to expand its appeal. Now there are many ways
of doing that. Recently, the appeal has been expanded to
(06:30):
working Americans, as I noted earlier. Ideally it would also
be expanded to newer Americans, and I think for some
newer Americans the Republican Party has its appeal as well.
But I'm all for growing the party and growing the tent.
I just think that to your point, once you start
talking about how awful businesses are, I mean, that's when
you lose me a little bit.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Right of course, although from thirty thousand feet, as they say,
it struck me as a moment of Hey, let's concentrate
on what we have in common. Well, we disagree with
this guy and a lot of stuff, but we agree
on some stuff, and so we've in right. Because I
was thinking, if you're going to be a majority party,
like the Obama coalition had a lot of groups that
didn't agree on a lot of things. Yeah, but if
you're going to be a majority party, you have to
(07:09):
bring in together those groups. I think that's a great point.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
And by the way, the reason why the Democrats are
having so much to get to your point about why
the Democrats are having so much difficulty now with what
they do with their nomination process is because that Obama
coalition has fallen apart. And nothing does better in holding
coalitions together than winning. You saw it with Republicans when
you had the Reagan coalition. Bush had a slightly different
(07:33):
coalition that was a different coalition, and that fell apart.
Once the Bush presidency ended. Nothing helps people stay copaesthetic
like winning. And I think the reason why that coalition
is falling apart because people are looking at the president's campaign.
They're saying, this guy can't win. And I think for
that reason, people are starting to desert the ship. It's
not pretty.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Do they Are they turning against Biden because he can't
win or because his brain don't work? I have a
feeling that if he was up by ten points, nobody'd
be talking about his brain. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I mean, it is all about elective politics. It's all
about what are the polls showing us? And I have
to believe his advisors are seeing the same polls that
President Trump's advisors are seeing and that the public are seeing,
which suggests that they are little to few to no
pathways to victory for the Democratic ticket.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Well, David Axrod keeps saying he thinks his inner circle
is keeping the polls from him. New York Times alluded
to that today too. Is is Joe Biden looking at
the actual.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Attem might look? I mean, how crazy an allegation is that.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
He does keep referring to polls that show him up right,
I have no doubt there are polls that show him up.
I'm just not sure that they're conducted by credible.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Pollster, Doctor Jill Dosom.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I mean, I just as as a candidate, one of
the things you have to do is you have to
be inquisitive about where is the race right now? Because
we all, I mean, I've been a candidate before. You
want to think as positively as you can about the race,
but you got to know where things are well in
a realistic view, you know. And I just I just don't.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I don't know if he's getting the full picture, if
it's being kept from him, if he doesn't want to
see the full picture.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
But the data seems pretty clear to me. Well, everything's
going on right now.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Every good and great leader I've ever run into wants
to know the bad news. Of course, you demand bad
news first. You know, you're, like us, a human being,
he says, as if that's some sort of observation, and
a family man.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You ask you right, exactly, But.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
If you've dealt at all with the decline of age
or dementia or Parkinson's or anything like that, you know
it only goes in one direction. And on the political
side of things, in three months, it's going to be
absolutely tragic for the Democrats. But putting that aside, there
is no chance Joe Biden is anything but significantly worse.
(09:45):
My mom died of complications from Parkinson's and by the
time we are in October, it's going to be really
hard to watch. And it's difficult for us as non
political pros to process that anybody think that's a better
idea than saying, hey, let's go quick, let's figure out
if Gretchen or Gavin or Jos Shapiro, who gave a
(10:06):
lovely speech the other day, if they're a better option.
It's difficult for me to understand how you could stick
with that sinking shift.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
So let me give you the argument that I'm sure
the Biden team is giving to a lot of people
right now. And by the way, this is an axiom
that I would say in politics is widely believed. You
always rather the devil you know to the devil you
don't sure, okay, because you want the predictability of the
liabilities you have in front of you versus the non
(10:34):
predictability of liabilities that come from a new candidate who's
not been vetted. And so, by the way, I've talked
to Democrats in that circle who say this to me
that you know, we don't know what's out there about
Gretchen Witmer. We don't know what's out there about Gavin
Is or or the vice president. Even so we don't
for that reason alone, we would prefer to go with
(10:56):
the horse we have.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Now.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I think more and more Democrats, and even some in
very high levels of the Democratic National Committee are wondering
whether that is the right strategy or because we're all
seeing the same thing. Right.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
We all watch TV, we all see what's going on.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
So I feel like even during this week when all
the attention is here in Milwaukee, there are lots of
conversations going on about what does the future of the
Democratic Party look like, what's going to come next?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Can we precipitate a change. We've talked about this before.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
I'm still not really convinced they will make a change.
I just think that you do not force a incumbent
president out of anything unless the president himself comes to
the conclusion because he sees the.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Data, he can't win. As you sit here, what's your
lead story of the convention so far?
Speaker 4 (11:48):
The unity of the Republican Party, This is a party
that's been pretty at various points divided since twenty sixteen,
since Donald Trump first became the nominee, and of unity.
I mean, I've talked to lots of Republicans over the
last day and a half i've been here, including a
number of Republicans who were very skeptical of Trump at
(12:09):
various points. And even if they're skeptical, their view is,
you know, he's the nominee and I'm going to support him.
And I'm hearing a level of you. You got Nicki
Haley coming tonight, right, you're the keynote speaker tonight.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And you had Tucker Carlson sitting the two seats away
from the president last night.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
That's an interesting way uniting the tribes, right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
The Evance once called him America's hitler, and he's his
running mad Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah, hey, you know what, the former president loves a
redemption story. Yeah, And we've seen it over and over again,
and this is just the latest example. The other thing
I'll note is that you couldn't have picked a VP
more different than Pence. If you think about the profile
of these two men, and you think political profile and
actual profile in terms of appearance, age, mannerisms couldn't be
(12:49):
more different, and I think that that's intentional, that's not
an accident.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
What you would know this, what is the latest date
Biden could step down and you could like even conceivably
change to a different candidate.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So I think there's two issues.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
There's one that's like a democratic rules of the Democratic
Party issue, and that one's coming up. I think that
was like the next couple of weeks they've got to
figure out because they got to nominate, They got to
formally nominate at the convention, and I think they were
talking about doing a roll call ahead of that to
get it. For some reason, there's a ballot issue in
Ohio or somewhere where they can't get on the ballot
unless they have a named Democratic nominee by X date.
(13:23):
So what I was gonna say is there's the Democratic
Party rules issue, and then there's the legal ballot access questions.
I don't know well enough to know what the exact
deadlines are, but I can't imagine we've got too much
long so weeks.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, probably.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
And the reason I bring that up is because we
were discussing yesterday. Isn't that the only way the Democrats
could like turn the page and start a new conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
The forcing function is a different.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Candidate, because how would you run against Trump at this point?
Since he's just been shot, right, You can't demonize him,
can you, Which.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Is the hard message, and it makes it very hard
to run a campaign. I mean, you know, they had
to pull everything down for a couple of days. My
guess is they'll go back to business as usual soon,
but they are. They're going to be in a tough spot.
But to get back to the conversation we had, you
know before the break, given how polarized we are, they'll.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Be able to have.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
I mean, they'll they'll go right back to attacking Trump
within a matter.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
You think they'll be calling him an existential threat to
Democrat I think.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I think they'll be. I think some will.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
I think some member Democrat members of Congress are completely unhinged. Well, yeah,
the completely unhinged about about Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Well, and I was going to say, in spite of
the assassination attempt, and where you think that might push
the discussion. A desperate beast is not prone to reasonableness,
that's right, and the Democratic Party is a desperate beast.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
This I mean, I would not surprise me if you
started to hear that.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
I mean, uh, you know what I what I come
back to is when you say this person has to
be stopped at all costs, what do you think is
going to happen? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Right? What do you think is going to happen? Right?
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And to be fair, I think that that language hasn't
been used by all Democrats. But you know, people conveniently
overlook that there are some who've been engaging in that
kind of dialogue for years.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's a difficult thing, the question of.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
If your rhetoric incites the most mentally disturbed tenth of
a percentage of the population, is that necessarily unacceptable rhetoric?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
But both sides have got to quit saying that if
the other side wins this election, we'll never have another election, right,
because that's crazy thing it is, It is absurd.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And the blood bath thing, I mean, if I were
to take Joe Biden's word, he at his word. He
repeated it on Lester Holds again last night that Trump
vowed a bloodbath if he lost, virtually anything would.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Be justified, right right, Well, again, we got to figure
out a way to get the rhetoric toned down. I'm
not enthusiastic it's going to happen, but I think the
sanctity of our republic depends on it.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
This week at the convention, do you think speeches have
been significantly changed or will be significantly changed from what
they were going.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
To be or not? It doesn't feel like there's been
significant change. Maybe you know there's been some nipping in tucking.
There always is. I mean again, I was engaged in
this process. You know, there's always a nitthing in tucking.
The big question is going to be what Donald Trump's
speech sounds like on their day, right, I'm watching for it.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, did you follow the story? Ron Johnson Wisconsin get
pretty strong.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Speech the teleprompter loading the Ron.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
They loaded the pre shooting speech by accident. You know
what do you think that's a bus No?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I mean that can happen. It's chaotic back there in
the production of production.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
How about on the fly you leave out the most
inflammatory stuff. I mean, come on, you don't have to
read it. Right, Yeah, we've barely got a minute until
a heartbreak. So the key question who is the smartest
person among major news personalities and who's the dumbest?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Oh my gosh, how long do we have. I gonna
get in trouble if you make me answer that question.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You work for NBC. If you run into Lester, tell
him nice job on the interview. Not only did he
ask hard questions, but he followed up ye Biden last night.
He's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
It wouldn't be a chat with Lanhi Chen if we
didn't ask at least one.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Incredibly unfair question. Hey, we really look forward to chatting
more throughout.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, thanks for being.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Thanks for having me. Yeah, oh our pleasure.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Yeah,
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