Sally Shaw: University of Otago professor on the controversy over the Breakers refusing to wear the Pride jerseys

There's been some controversy surrounding the Breakers following a recent announcement.

They have come out and stated that they will not be wearing a pride sticker at the upcoming Pride Round in the NBL.

Sally Shaw is a professor in sport management at the University of Otago and she joined D'Arcy to discuss.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZED.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Be right, let's talk about the Breakers. Twelve minutes after
seven sports Talk on that news Talk z B. They're
not going to wear the players the sticker, the brooch,
the label that the players are supposed to wear during
Pride Week. They basically put it to a vote. Here's

(00:32):
the statement from the Breakers around this, in line with
the leagues of voluntary participation policy to wear the patch.
The players discuss the matter as a team. Some players
raise religious and cultural concerns about wearing the insignia. To
protect individual players from being singled out for their beliefs,
the team collectively decided that they would either all wear

(00:56):
the insignia or none would all or nothing. They go
on to say, the Breakers the club respects the human
rights of all individuals, including their to freedom of expression.
Actually take an issue with that last line, the including
their right to freedom of expressions. If they want to
express solidarity with the rainbow community, they're not allowed to

(01:21):
spadline that one anyway. We're joined now by Sally Shaw,
Professor in Sport Management at the University of Otarge. She's
undertaking the country first academic study into homophobia in sports
and has been there for a few years. He joins
us now to discuss why do you ambil may be
doing this in the first place, this week, this promotion,

(01:44):
if you will, why they didn't the first place, and
why do you think the Breakers Sally may have taken
this path as saying you guys, vote will back you up.
And also of course the need for education conversation. She's
all on good evening, Sally.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
Hey, Darcy, how are you very good?

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Another interesting situation in sport. That's the lightest way of
putting what's going on with the New Zealand Breakers in
the Australian National Basketball League. They have decided that in
the upcoming Pride round their players will not be required
to wear the bad because it makes some of their
players uncomfortable from a cultural and religious point of view.

(02:27):
I suppose the first thing I'll ask, and thanks for
joining us, why are the NBL indulging in a pride round?
It didn't work very well for the NRL, did it.
What are they happened to achieve?

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Well, I'm not sure indulging is quite the right word,
but I think commercial professional sport organizations in particular, see
an opportunity to connect with communities that aren't their everyday
fans or athletes, and if they can do I feel

(03:00):
they can do that through a Pride Round, then that's
something that they see is valuable.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Do you think it works out? And out does this?
I'm sure it appeals to some segment. Is there a
bottom line here? A KPI? How do they know this
actually operates in a successful manner?

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Well, I guess there probably is a KPI. I'm sure
they will be looking at the numbers of streams and
TV eyeballs and all the rest of it. I think
it's an opportunity to show for the NBL, to show
that they want to be engaged with the LGBTQ plus community.

(03:38):
We don't really know if they work. I think the
harder work is the work that goes on for the
rest of the season, and I for one, certainly would
be much happier if some of those resources that go
into a Pride Round also went into work with LGBTQ

(03:58):
plus communities and particularly youth who are missing out on
sport opportunities for the remainder of the season or better
the remainder of the year. So in essence this bluster.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Maybe I haven't used the right word. Again. It's all
very well and good for a handful of days, but
in order to be truly effective, it's got to be
a lot of education at a base level. Right the
way through the NBL. We don't get to see that.
So there's not enough to make a song and dance about.
But that is so much more important than just a weekend.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
You The Pride Round does give the opportunity for people
to engage to you know, show allyship with a community
that is often excluded from sport, and that is a
good thing that you know, that that puts a stake
in the line in the sand. It shows fans that,

(04:54):
you know, these are people that we want to have
at our games. So, in terms of the basic offering
of a Pride Round, yes it has merits. But as
I say that, the real merit for me comes in
how sustainable this is? And you know what happens if
two weeks later there's a homophobic slurb going on in
the crowd. Do we just pretend that didn't happen and

(05:17):
ignore it, or do we do something about it and
say no, we're not having that. And even though you
paid for your ticket, you're out of the game.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
The Breakers took an interesting position on that. The previous
couple of seasons, they they've done nothing. This time around,
They've gone to their players and the players have said,
we're uncomfortable with wearing this support tag if you will,
and they've decided that they're all going to do it,
or no one's going to do it at all. As
a direct result, no one's going to do it at all.

(05:48):
Why do you think the Breakers took this path and
is that entirely a good look for them or is
it a terrible look.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
I think they've probably took that path because they wanted
to show though they are a team, and so therefore
I'm sure team unity is is extremely important to them,
as it is for any sports team. The heat has
gone on in terms of sexuality conversations in sport over

(06:18):
the last few years, and it may well be that
they feel that, you know, naming the people who don't
who don't want to wear the logo could cause them
problems and they don't want to do that, and that's
that's okay. The question that I think I would have
is how much time and education and effort was put

(06:42):
into having a conversation across the team or within the
team about what inclusion means and what it can mean
for people who do hold very strong religious and cultural beliefs,
and that if there is an element of love and
compassion within a culture or a religion, then how do

(07:08):
how might that be shown to people who don't necessarily
agree with and for me, the conversation, the important thing
is to have a conversation, a discussion between those who
want to have the pride round and those who are
not comfortable with it, and try to find some middle ground.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Not to.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Be calling each other names or becoming hostile, because that
just does no one any favors.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
So there's a huge opportunity for education here. This never
the twain shall meet shouldn't be the case. If they
can get together and move from there, there is a
huge positive. Theeses have to be pushed on them by
the NBL, or do the players have to make this decision?
This is these are crazy times. Over the last you know,
fifteen ten to fifteen years, it's been quite difficult for

(08:01):
people to I suppose to understand this particular issue to
trends in sport and so on and so forth. So
it's quite confronting. That does make it difficult, But does
that mean we should avoid it?

Speaker 3 (08:15):
No, absolutely not. People will say, I'm sure that sexuality
doesn't belong in sport, and sport is just about sport.
That's all well and good, until someone uses the homophobic
slur or you know, doesn't choose someone for a team
because they think they might be gay, or doesn't want

(08:36):
to be coached by someone because they think they might
be gay, And then the minute that happens, sexuality is
right there in a sport. So the conversations absolutely need
to happen. I don't think the conversations can be mandated.
I think this is the minute you start mandating things,
you've got a problem, because no one likes to be

(08:57):
told what to do. But if sport organizations and leagues
were able to prioritize the time to build trust between
groups that don't necessarily agree with each other and have
those conversations as they would with anything else that is

(09:17):
difficult in a team. If you have a team that's
disagreeing about, you know, just about anything else, they will
time will be prioritized for those teammates to get together
and to try and resolve the solution resolve the problem.
But when it comes to kind of social issues and

(09:40):
some of the trickier societal issues, that time is not
often not prioritized. And that's partly because people find these
conversations really difficult. They are challenging, but also partly because
of the various pressures of professional and commercial sport, which
are about drawing a profit, getting sponsors, and then getting

(10:03):
a win.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's is there a case to that this conversation or
these attitudes probably not the place of the club or
the franchise to put these in place. It's not really
at the top of the list of what they want
to do. Are they budding off too much to train
into this?

Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think there is. I think there is. There are
small differences that can be made that that don't have
to disrupt the main priority, the main priorities of a
commercial professional sports team, and those small changes are things
like calling out homophobicss and just saying, you know, we

(10:42):
we don't use that language here. Ensuring that when we're
doing outreach stuff in the community, which which teams like
the Breakers do, that they're also going to youth support
groups that are for LGBTQ plus kids, and making sure
that you know, when when they are doing outreach work,

(11:06):
it is outreach work that outreaches to all kinds of
populations and not just the kind of easy ones that
they want to be around. So it's not about adding
something extra to the work of the organization. It's about
incorporating inclusive activities into the work that's already done being done.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
The athletes, the clubs aren't going to be browbeaten into
gring with somebody. We've talked about education big a question
around there is it worth all this trouble when you
look at it right here, right now, Is it worth
them engaging in this or what would be best just
to walk off?

Speaker 3 (11:50):
I think it's worth engaging in because lots of people
look to professional athletes as role models, and you know,
especially young people. And if there are queer young people
out there who want to be playing basketball but feel
that they don't belong for whatever reason, their team, and

(12:12):
they see a breaker or a team of breakers being
in some way supportive to their community, I know that
that will make a huge difference to them. And it
could be the difference between a young person deciding to
stay in a sport or deciding not to. And maybe

(12:34):
not really finding their people wherever they are. So yes,
I think professional sports teams should be involved in that,
but I think they have to be involved in a
way that is respectful of the views that their players have,
and that is, you know, has a good discussion and
conversation around these things.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
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