Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
This is Later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast.
More what you hear Weekday Afternoon is on the Drive.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
He's the author of American Kleptocracy, named by The Economist
is one of the best books to read to understand
financial Crime's writing. It off shoring foreign lobbying, authoritarianism, and
illicit wealth. Has appeared in The Financial Times, Wall Street Journal,
The Atlantic Foreign Affairs, and many many more. His newest
creation is Foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers threatened
(00:34):
democracy around the world. Casey Michelle, it is great to
have you here today. To me, this has not been
something that's new. Has this not been going on since
we've become a country, Foreign entities trying to influence what
we do? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Lee, First of all, thanks so much for being here Earth.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Sorry, thanks so much for letting me join you today,
I should say, but you're exactly right. Look, this book,
Foreign Agent comes out on this Tuesday.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
This is a book about the foreign lobbying industry in
the United States, which is an industry. It's worth billions
of dollars now, but hasn't gotten that much attention, at
least until the last few years or so both for
what it's done, but also for who it's involved and
of course what effect it ends up having on the
rest of us. And we could talk about that a
little bit later in the conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
But sure, you're exactly right.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
You know, lobbying in and of itself, which I think
a lot of folks may forget, may not remember, you know,
that's a constitutionally protected right. This is what Americans are
able to do legallys right there in the First Amendment.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
You can petition the government for readdress grievances.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
But what foreign regimes have realized is that they can
then use that lobbying right for themselves. They can go
to Americans and say, we will pay you millions of
dollars to go to your congressman, to go to your senator,
to go to the White House, and lobby not on
behalf of other Americans, but lobby on behalf of the
worst dictators in the entire world. And we're talking to
the Russias, the China's, the Iran's out there, among many
(02:00):
many others. But as you just mentioned, this is also
not new.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
This is didn't just start in the last year or two.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
When you talk about foreign governments, foreign regimes trying to
affect American policy.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
You can go back decades.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Frankly, you can go back a couple centuries, especially, you know,
to things like the early nineteenth century when you had
the United Kingdom, you had France trying to affect American elections,
trying to affect American policy. You know, it goes way,
way way back in American history. But it's only a
recent years that has really exploded again into this multi
billion dollar behemoth that it now is.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Kasey Michelle and the book is Foreign Agents, How American
lobbyists and lawmakers threatened democracy around the world. You don't
really have to reach that far. And we're not talking
about lobbying so much here as some of the influence
peddling accusations that came out of the Biden administration. This
wasn't a lobbying group trying to get a law pass.
This was trying to get access to the president.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
There are some revelations that came out just a few
weeks ago at this point, which I ended up writing
about on my own. It was too late to include
in the book, but thankfully I was able to you know, again,
write a little bit of this, and of course keep
the topic of foreign lobbying, foreign agents very topical, very
top of mind for a lot of folks. You know,
this was these were the revelations about the sitting president's son,
Hunter Biden, who had opened himself opened his pocketbooks again
(03:16):
to government after government around the around the globe, especially
in places like Romania, in places like Ukraine. You know,
these oligarchs, these local officials who were under investigation turning
to the president's son for help to use his services
as a lobbyist. Now, of course he hasn't seen charges
related to this. He has seen charges related to things
like tax evasion, but he hasn't been formally accused of
(03:39):
acting as an unregistered foreign agent.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
But certainly, as far.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
As I can tell, that's exactly what he was, and
who knows, perhaps may remain to this day. So again,
these are accessing the highest ranks of the American political
establishment to this day.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Now, the difference between lobbying a special interest and oligarchy,
can you get into that a little?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Well, I think it goes back to what I was
saying a moment agoly. You know, lobbying again is a
constitutionally protected, right you me whoever else is listening to this,
as long as they're an American citizen, they can go
to their you know, state legislator, they can go to
their federal legislator and lobby on behalf of whatever whatever
topic they would like. Right, whether it's environmental protections, whether
it's infrastructure investment, health care reform, you know, you name it.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
That is still there.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
We can still do that perfectly freely when it pertains
to oligarchs, When it pertains to these foreign regimes, these
kind of again kleptocratic dictatorships that are interested in nothing
other than remaining in power, enriching themselves, enriching their family members,
and really e miserating entire populations, right, looting from the
health budget, and the infrastructure budget, the the education budget.
(04:50):
You know, these regimes want nothing more than to remain
in power and then to use these lobbyists in the
United States of America to affect American policy that will
benefit those regimes themselves. So, whether it's things like opening
up the spigots of.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
American economic aid, American.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Military aid, or even specific policies that are specific to
those countries themselves, this is what these regimes are interested in,
and this is what these regimes are hiring all of
these Americans to do. And again, it's no longer just
a few thousand dollars here and there. It's now millions
or tens of millions to specific firms, totaling billions of
dollars at the end of the.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Day, Casey Michelle, foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers
threatened democracy around the world is there in I mean,
you go back into history and start looking at this
and showing examples of this. Are there examples in the
past that are more egregious than some of the ones
we've just seen.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Well, I don't know if they're more or less egregious,
because again, one of the arguments in the book is
that these foreign lobbists have gained more political access and
really more political power now in the twenty twenties than
ever before. But certainly, one of the case studies that
I write about, one of the guys who really kind
of of the industry as we know it was this
guy back in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties named
(06:04):
Ivy Lee. And if anyone has heard of him, if
anyone remembers this guy's because he's also considered the founder
of the public relations industry in the United States and
then eventually globally.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And you know, he was a really innovative guy. He's
very creative guy.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
But what he ended up doing again in the nineteen
twenties of the nineteen thirties was realizing there are more
clients that he can find abroad rather than just in
the United States of America. And it turns out these
rising dictators in places like Italy, in places like Moscow,
and in places especially like Germany, you know, they wanted
his services just as many other Americans did. And so
(06:39):
what he ended up doing was traveling to Rome to
work with Mussolini, traveling to Moscow to work with the Soviets,
and then most notoriously, traveling to Berlin to work with
the highest ranks of the Nazis, have sit down meetings
with Adolf Hitler and provide his advice on how they
can target Americans and affect American policy without anyone knowing.
So again, you know, it doesn't get much worse than
(07:01):
having to sit down meetings with Hitler. But you know,
the thing that ended up tripping him up is he
was eventually found out and ended up having these regulations.
But this is a legacy that has now lasted for
it for a century. He really created the industry that's
now grown into this behemoth that it now is.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
And he never did any time or was charged with
anything because it was still legal at that point.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
I gathered it was still legal, absolutely, yes, which is
why they had these regulations only after the fact.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But yeah, he never committed any crimes.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
You're going to meet a lot more people that probably
you'd say in this book, you'd say, how do people
live with themselves who do that? And it's Casey Michelle's
foreign agents, how American lobbyist and lawmakers threatened democracy around
the world. I encourage you to read it because, like
I've said, and what I've been saying on this program
again and again and again is that, yeah, this is
nothing new. This has been going on for a long time.
(07:50):
Can I guess the big difference is is how deep
can it go and how much money can change hands?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Well, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
It's more organized, it's more and at the end of
the day, it's far larger than it has ever been.
And of course, accessing those leading American politicians in Congress
and especially in the White House as well.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Look, we have to pay far more attention to it.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I would certainly like to say that if folks should
go out and pick up a copy of my book
on Tuesday, because I do think at the end of
the day, they'll at least enjoy it, if not find
some of the stories wildly depressing and distressing, but at
least it's out there and available now.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee
Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live
weekday afternoons from five to seven and iHeartMedia Presentation
This is Later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast.
More what you hear Weekday Afternoon is on the Drive.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
He's the author of American Kleptocracy, named by The Economist
is one of the best books to read to understand
financial Crime's writing. It off shoring foreign lobbying, authoritarianism, and
illicit wealth. Has appeared in The Financial Times, Wall Street Journal,
The Atlantic Foreign Affairs, and many many more. His newest
creation is Foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers threatened
(00:34):
democracy around the world. Casey Michelle, it is great to
have you here today. To me, this has not been
something that's new. Has this not been going on since
we've become a country, Foreign entities trying to influence what
we do? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Lee, First of all, thanks so much for being here Earth.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Sorry, thanks so much for letting me join you today,
I should say, but you're exactly right. Look, this book,
Foreign Agent comes out on this Tuesday.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
This is a book about the foreign lobbying industry in
the United States, which is an industry. It's worth billions
of dollars now, but hasn't gotten that much attention, at
least until the last few years or so both for
what it's done, but also for who it's involved and
of course what effect it ends up having on the
rest of us. And we could talk about that a
little bit later in the conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
But sure, you're exactly right.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
You know, lobbying in and of itself, which I think
a lot of folks may forget, may not remember, you know,
that's a constitutionally protected right. This is what Americans are
able to do legallys right there in the First Amendment.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
You can petition the government for readdress grievances.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
But what foreign regimes have realized is that they can
then use that lobbying right for themselves. They can go
to Americans and say, we will pay you millions of
dollars to go to your congressman, to go to your senator,
to go to the White House, and lobby not on
behalf of other Americans, but lobby on behalf of the
worst dictators in the entire world. And we're talking to
the Russias, the China's, the Iran's out there, among many
(02:00):
many others. But as you just mentioned, this is also
not new.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
This is didn't just start in the last year or two.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
When you talk about foreign governments, foreign regimes trying to
affect American policy.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
You can go back decades.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Frankly, you can go back a couple centuries, especially, you know,
to things like the early nineteenth century when you had
the United Kingdom, you had France trying to affect American elections,
trying to affect American policy. You know, it goes way,
way way back in American history. But it's only a
recent years that has really exploded again into this multi
billion dollar behemoth that it now is.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Kasey Michelle and the book is Foreign Agents, How American
lobbyists and lawmakers threatened democracy around the world. You don't
really have to reach that far. And we're not talking
about lobbying so much here as some of the influence
peddling accusations that came out of the Biden administration. This
wasn't a lobbying group trying to get a law pass.
This was trying to get access to the president.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
There are some revelations that came out just a few
weeks ago at this point, which I ended up writing
about on my own. It was too late to include
in the book, but thankfully I was able to you know, again,
write a little bit of this, and of course keep
the topic of foreign lobbying, foreign agents very topical, very
top of mind for a lot of folks. You know,
this was these were the revelations about the sitting president's son,
Hunter Biden, who had opened himself opened his pocketbooks again
(03:16):
to government after government around the around the globe, especially
in places like Romania, in places like Ukraine. You know,
these oligarchs, these local officials who were under investigation turning
to the president's son for help to use his services
as a lobbyist. Now, of course he hasn't seen charges
related to this. He has seen charges related to things
like tax evasion, but he hasn't been formally accused of
(03:39):
acting as an unregistered foreign agent.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
But certainly, as far.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
As I can tell, that's exactly what he was, and
who knows, perhaps may remain to this day. So again,
these are accessing the highest ranks of the American political
establishment to this day.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Now, the difference between lobbying a special interest and oligarchy,
can you get into that a little?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Well, I think it goes back to what I was
saying a moment agoly. You know, lobbying again is a
constitutionally protected, right you me whoever else is listening to this,
as long as they're an American citizen, they can go
to their you know, state legislator, they can go to
their federal legislator and lobby on behalf of whatever whatever
topic they would like. Right, whether it's environmental protections, whether
it's infrastructure investment, health care reform, you know, you name it.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
That is still there.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
We can still do that perfectly freely when it pertains
to oligarchs, When it pertains to these foreign regimes, these
kind of again kleptocratic dictatorships that are interested in nothing
other than remaining in power, enriching themselves, enriching their family members,
and really e miserating entire populations, right, looting from the
health budget, and the infrastructure budget, the the education budget.
(04:50):
You know, these regimes want nothing more than to remain
in power and then to use these lobbyists in the
United States of America to affect American policy that will
benefit those regimes themselves. So, whether it's things like opening
up the spigots of.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
American economic aid, American.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Military aid, or even specific policies that are specific to
those countries themselves, this is what these regimes are interested in,
and this is what these regimes are hiring all of
these Americans to do. And again, it's no longer just
a few thousand dollars here and there. It's now millions
or tens of millions to specific firms, totaling billions of
dollars at the end of the.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Day, Casey Michelle, foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers
threatened democracy around the world is there in I mean,
you go back into history and start looking at this
and showing examples of this. Are there examples in the
past that are more egregious than some of the ones
we've just seen.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Well, I don't know if they're more or less egregious,
because again, one of the arguments in the book is
that these foreign lobbists have gained more political access and
really more political power now in the twenty twenties than
ever before. But certainly, one of the case studies that
I write about, one of the guys who really kind
of of the industry as we know it was this
guy back in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties named
(06:04):
Ivy Lee. And if anyone has heard of him, if
anyone remembers this guy's because he's also considered the founder
of the public relations industry in the United States and
then eventually globally.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And you know, he was a really innovative guy. He's
very creative guy.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
But what he ended up doing again in the nineteen
twenties of the nineteen thirties was realizing there are more
clients that he can find abroad rather than just in
the United States of America. And it turns out these
rising dictators in places like Italy, in places like Moscow,
and in places especially like Germany, you know, they wanted
his services just as many other Americans did. And so
(06:39):
what he ended up doing was traveling to Rome to
work with Mussolini, traveling to Moscow to work with the Soviets,
and then most notoriously, traveling to Berlin to work with
the highest ranks of the Nazis, have sit down meetings
with Adolf Hitler and provide his advice on how they
can target Americans and affect American policy without anyone knowing.
So again, you know, it doesn't get much worse than
(07:01):
having to sit down meetings with Hitler. But you know,
the thing that ended up tripping him up is he
was eventually found out and ended up having these regulations.
But this is a legacy that has now lasted for
it for a century. He really created the industry that's
now grown into this behemoth that it now is.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
And he never did any time or was charged with
anything because it was still legal at that point.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
I gathered it was still legal, absolutely, yes, which is
why they had these regulations only after the fact.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But yeah, he never committed any crimes.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
You're going to meet a lot more people that probably
you'd say in this book, you'd say, how do people
live with themselves who do that? And it's Casey Michelle's
foreign agents, how American lobbyist and lawmakers threatened democracy around
the world. I encourage you to read it because, like
I've said, and what I've been saying on this program
again and again and again is that, yeah, this is
nothing new. This has been going on for a long time.
(07:50):
Can I guess the big difference is is how deep
can it go and how much money can change hands?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Well, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
It's more organized, it's more and at the end of
the day, it's far larger than it has ever been.
And of course, accessing those leading American politicians in Congress
and especially in the White House as well.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Look, we have to pay far more attention to it.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I would certainly like to say that if folks should
go out and pick up a copy of my book
on Tuesday, because I do think at the end of
the day, they'll at least enjoy it, if not find
some of the stories wildly depressing and distressing, but at
least it's out there and available now.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee
Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live
weekday afternoons from five to seven and iHeartMedia Presentation
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