Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
This is Later with Lee Matthews,The Lee Matthews Podcast More what You Hear
weekday Afternoons on the Drive. PeterBiskin is a cultural critic and film historian.
He is editor in chief of AmericanFilm Magazine, also including publications of
New York Times, LA Times,Rolling Stone. Also best selling author of
Easy Riders, Raging Bulls, andDown and Dirty Pictures. His newest volume
(00:28):
is interesting to me, and I'lltell you why in just a minute,
But it is. It's called Pandora'sBox. Pandora's Box and how television is
basically going down the tubes? Isthat a question? Now, Okay,
(00:51):
I'll try to answer this. Ifthat is a question, I'll try to
answer it. When I started thisbook, it was meant as a kind
of tribute to this new golden ageof TV that we were living in,
often called peak TV. But overthe course of the three or so years
I was writing it, suddenly thewhole picture changed. And now all you
(01:17):
do is read about obituaries for peakTV. So it's a constantly changing landscape,
and who knows how it's going toevolve or devolve in the next year
or two. Peter Biskin Pandora's Box. How gut Skyle and Greed upended TV?
(01:37):
Can you trace where it all began? Because I've got my theory.
Well, okay, my theory isthat it all began with HBO, and
the reason it began with HBO wasbecause HBO dropped the network's sponsor advertising business
model and substituted a subscriber based model. The problem with the network subscriber the
(02:04):
network advertising based model with the advertisersdidn't want their products, you know,
their buicks and their refrigerators and aspirinand whatever else they were selling. They
didn't want those ads to be adjacentto scenes of sex, violence or controversy.
So they enforced the kind of fifty'spuritanical morality on the networks, where
(02:28):
the networks were producing lowest common denominatorprogramming, trying to reach as many people
as possible by being as inoffensive aspossible. I mean, the network programming
was more interested in not offending peoplethan in producing shows that appeal to people.
So HBO came along and substituted asubscriber based model where subscribers willingly chose
(02:54):
to subscribe to HBO and the cableHBO is a cable one of the first
cable stations, and the cable apparatuswas privately owned, so the Federal Communications
Commission had very little jurisdiction OVERBO,and HBO was able to produce the kind
(03:15):
of programming that networks shied away from, sex, violence and controversy, and
HBO took advantage of it. Mytheory is kind of dovetails your theory.
My theory was cable television and theonset of more than just four or five
channels per metropolitan area. Because thenpeople began to have more choices, and
(03:40):
television all of a sudden had tostart dealing with a ratings phenomenon that we've
been dealing with in radio for along time, instead of people listening for
thirty to people watching for thirty toforty five minutes. Because there were more
choices and everybody had a remote withan easy way to change those channels,
(04:00):
Viewing went from you know, severalseveral quarter hours to you know, five
or six minutes, and all ofa sudden, the television channels, especially
the competitive Big three networks, hadto find ways to compel people to keep
watching longer. Well, yeah,that was that that ability to change channels
(04:23):
was called the dread the dread Wardfor it was churned the h u RT
just flicking a flicking a button,you could, you know, go from
Netflix to something else or one ofhis competitive competing streaming channels. One of
the one of the ways Netflix gotaround that was by introducing binging, yeah,
(04:43):
which meant that they could drop awhole season in one day and every
and which is what they proceeded todo. And everybody told Ted Serrandos,
who was running Netflix then still isuh that he was crazy, But that's
what they did well. And that'sanother thing I wanted to touch on.
Peterbeskind is here at Pandora's Box,how guts, gyle and greed upended television.
(05:06):
I am not a binger, andI get I have to be very
choosy when I'm okay, what doI want to watch tonight? And I
look and okay, is that aseries or is it a movie? If
it's a series, I won't watchit because I'm not going to get involved
in a series that's going to takeme ten or eleven episodes to get through.
And all I want is something toget me through the night. Well,
(05:28):
yeah, I mean, in fact, and the network. The streamers
are pretty much abandoned binging, notnecessarily for the reason you just gave,
but also but because it's too expensive. I mean, a show can cost
easily cost one hundred million dollars ortwo hundred million dollars for eight episodes for
(05:49):
a season, and if Netflix dropsthem all at once, they're essentially and
somebody and somebody like you decide togo through a whole season in a marathon
viewing session or two marathon viewing sessions, then it's over and Netflix has blown
(06:10):
one hundred million dollars or more.So binging is now that you find the
streamers are essentially releasing maybe two episodeswhen a new show premieres and maybe two
episodes when it ends, but nomore binging. Well, the other thing
with a lot of the binging seriesis is the so called slow burn effect.
(06:31):
It might take them forty or fiftyminutes to get through what should be
maybe five minutes of content in orderto try to keep you watching. And
I can't help but think that Iknow it frustrates me, it must frustrate
other viewers. Yeah, I meanI think that a lot of people have
criticized binging and streamers because shows aretoo long. You know, they feel
(06:55):
like they're pat it and that's absolutelyright, and sometimes they are. Often
they are just for that reason,which adds to the expense, I imagine.
Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, it's it's interesting
now that Netflix has lost some money, they've lost subscribers, and I guess
(07:18):
about a year ago and they introduceda number of changes which essentially backtrack on
all backtrack on all the innovations thatnetwork that Netflix made, so they're more
binging. They introduced an ad supportivetier. They're cracking down on passwords,
sharing, et cetera, etcetera.So essentially you have not Netflix. Netflix
(07:42):
became not Netflix. Yeah, bestselling authors with us. The name of
the book is Pandora's Box, HowGuts, Gyle and Greed Up into TV.
Peter Biscuin is with us. Sowhat is the future? Peter?
I mean, I know several peoplein my circle of friends who have completely
cut the cable and all they dois stream on whatever device they happen to
(08:03):
have in their in the palm oftheir hand. Is that going to be
the future? Well, I thinkyeah, I mean I think streaming is
in one way going to be thefuture. But to me, the future
looks fraught with uh trouble because it'slike just alluded to. I think that
(08:24):
the differences between network and streaming orbreaking down and the streaming. You know,
when when Netflix started, Read Hastings, who founded it, sort of
said that his main Netflix main competitionwas Sleep. But that was then and
this is now. Now. They'relike a handful of competing table streaming channels
(08:50):
competing with Netflix, and each oneis trying to get the largest possible audience.
And when you try to reach thelargest possible audience, you get into
that network buye where you're making programmingthat is trying trying not to offend more
than to appeal to. And thereare many many examples of where edgy programming
(09:16):
it is being essentially castrated or cutoff at the knees. The anti hero,
I mean cable HBO is famous forthe sopranos, and now it seems
as if the anti hero is goingout of fashion. In fact, one
of the reviews of my book wascalled and they called it how Ted Lasso
(09:37):
killed Tony Soprano, which is moreor less true. Well, and then
there's the woke culture too. Inthe cancel culture. It's getting to the
point where, all right, youdon't dare make something that's even mildly offensive
because they'll boycott you or or worse, called you into court. I think
that's true. I mean, Imean, there are many many examples of
(10:01):
you know, Apple TV. Whenit started, it was kind of a
feel good streamer, and apparently TimCook would say over and over again about
the different shows on Apple, thenew shows on Apple, don't make them
so mean. And now Apple hasdumped a number of uh that they severed
(10:26):
their connection to John Stewart because hewas reporting on controversial subjects that were too
controversial. That dropped a number ofshows like After Party, City of Fire,
and Suspicion, And they reportedly canceledto see a copalist adaptation of Edith
Wharton's The Custom of the Country becauseit had an unlikable lead character. So
(10:48):
that kind of thing is happening overand over again, not just an Apple,
but on other streamers. Peter Biskinand Pandora's Box, How Guts,
Gyle and Greed up into television.If you feel the way about television the
way I do, you'll love thisbook. And Peter I thank you for
joining us today. Thank you thanksfor listening to Later with Lee Matthews,
(11:09):
the Lee Matthews Podcast, and rememberto listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons
from five to seven and iHeartMedia presentation
This is Later with Lee Matthews,The Lee Matthews Podcast More what You Hear
weekday Afternoons on the Drive. PeterBiskin is a cultural critic and film historian.
He is editor in chief of AmericanFilm Magazine, also including publications of
New York Times, LA Times,Rolling Stone. Also best selling author of
Easy Riders, Raging Bulls, andDown and Dirty Pictures. His newest volume
(00:28):
is interesting to me, and I'lltell you why in just a minute,
But it is. It's called Pandora'sBox. Pandora's Box and how television is
basically going down the tubes? Isthat a question? Now, Okay,
(00:51):
I'll try to answer this. Ifthat is a question, I'll try to
answer it. When I started thisbook, it was meant as a kind
of tribute to this new golden ageof TV that we were living in,
often called peak TV. But overthe course of the three or so years
I was writing it, suddenly thewhole picture changed. And now all you
(01:17):
do is read about obituaries for peakTV. So it's a constantly changing landscape,
and who knows how it's going toevolve or devolve in the next year
or two. Peter Biskin Pandora's Box. How gut Skyle and Greed upended TV?
(01:37):
Can you trace where it all began? Because I've got my theory.
Well, okay, my theory isthat it all began with HBO, and
the reason it began with HBO wasbecause HBO dropped the network's sponsor advertising business
model and substituted a subscriber based model. The problem with the network subscriber the
(02:04):
network advertising based model with the advertisersdidn't want their products, you know,
their buicks and their refrigerators and aspirinand whatever else they were selling. They
didn't want those ads to be adjacentto scenes of sex, violence or controversy.
So they enforced the kind of fifty'spuritanical morality on the networks, where
(02:28):
the networks were producing lowest common denominatorprogramming, trying to reach as many people
as possible by being as inoffensive aspossible. I mean, the network programming
was more interested in not offending peoplethan in producing shows that appeal to people.
So HBO came along and substituted asubscriber based model where subscribers willingly chose
(02:54):
to subscribe to HBO and the cableHBO is a cable one of the first
cable stations, and the cable apparatuswas privately owned, so the Federal Communications
Commission had very little jurisdiction OVERBO,and HBO was able to produce the kind
(03:15):
of programming that networks shied away from, sex, violence and controversy, and
HBO took advantage of it. Mytheory is kind of dovetails your theory.
My theory was cable television and theonset of more than just four or five
channels per metropolitan area. Because thenpeople began to have more choices, and
(03:40):
television all of a sudden had tostart dealing with a ratings phenomenon that we've
been dealing with in radio for along time, instead of people listening for
thirty to people watching for thirty toforty five minutes. Because there were more
choices and everybody had a remote withan easy way to change those channels,
(04:00):
Viewing went from you know, severalseveral quarter hours to you know, five
or six minutes, and all ofa sudden, the television channels, especially
the competitive Big three networks, hadto find ways to compel people to keep
watching longer. Well, yeah,that was that that ability to change channels
(04:23):
was called the dread the dread Wardfor it was churned the h u RT
just flicking a flicking a button,you could, you know, go from
Netflix to something else or one ofhis competitive competing streaming channels. One of
the one of the ways Netflix gotaround that was by introducing binging, yeah,
(04:43):
which meant that they could drop awhole season in one day and every
and which is what they proceeded todo. And everybody told Ted Serrandos,
who was running Netflix then still isuh that he was crazy, But that's
what they did well. And that'sanother thing I wanted to touch on.
Peterbeskind is here at Pandora's Box,how guts, gyle and greed upended television.
(05:06):
I am not a binger, andI get I have to be very
choosy when I'm okay, what doI want to watch tonight? And I
look and okay, is that aseries or is it a movie? If
it's a series, I won't watchit because I'm not going to get involved
in a series that's going to takeme ten or eleven episodes to get through.
And all I want is something toget me through the night. Well,
(05:28):
yeah, I mean, in fact, and the network. The streamers
are pretty much abandoned binging, notnecessarily for the reason you just gave,
but also but because it's too expensive. I mean, a show can cost
easily cost one hundred million dollars ortwo hundred million dollars for eight episodes for
(05:49):
a season, and if Netflix dropsthem all at once, they're essentially and
somebody and somebody like you decide togo through a whole season in a marathon
viewing session or two marathon viewing sessions, then it's over and Netflix has blown
(06:10):
one hundred million dollars or more.So binging is now that you find the
streamers are essentially releasing maybe two episodeswhen a new show premieres and maybe two
episodes when it ends, but nomore binging. Well, the other thing
with a lot of the binging seriesis is the so called slow burn effect.
(06:31):
It might take them forty or fiftyminutes to get through what should be
maybe five minutes of content in orderto try to keep you watching. And
I can't help but think that Iknow it frustrates me, it must frustrate
other viewers. Yeah, I meanI think that a lot of people have
criticized binging and streamers because shows aretoo long. You know, they feel
(06:55):
like they're pat it and that's absolutelyright, and sometimes they are. Often
they are just for that reason,which adds to the expense, I imagine.
Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, it's it's interesting
now that Netflix has lost some money, they've lost subscribers, and I guess
(07:18):
about a year ago and they introduceda number of changes which essentially backtrack on
all backtrack on all the innovations thatnetwork that Netflix made, so they're more
binging. They introduced an ad supportivetier. They're cracking down on passwords,
sharing, et cetera, etcetera.So essentially you have not Netflix. Netflix
(07:42):
became not Netflix. Yeah, bestselling authors with us. The name of
the book is Pandora's Box, HowGuts, Gyle and Greed Up into TV.
Peter Biscuin is with us. Sowhat is the future? Peter?
I mean, I know several peoplein my circle of friends who have completely
cut the cable and all they dois stream on whatever device they happen to
(08:03):
have in their in the palm oftheir hand. Is that going to be
the future? Well, I thinkyeah, I mean I think streaming is
in one way going to be thefuture. But to me, the future
looks fraught with uh trouble because it'slike just alluded to. I think that
(08:24):
the differences between network and streaming orbreaking down and the streaming. You know,
when when Netflix started, Read Hastings, who founded it, sort of
said that his main Netflix main competitionwas Sleep. But that was then and
this is now. Now. They'relike a handful of competing table streaming channels
(08:50):
competing with Netflix, and each oneis trying to get the largest possible audience.
And when you try to reach thelargest possible audience, you get into
that network buye where you're making programmingthat is trying trying not to offend more
than to appeal to. And thereare many many examples of where edgy programming
(09:16):
it is being essentially castrated or cutoff at the knees. The anti hero,
I mean cable HBO is famous forthe sopranos, and now it seems
as if the anti hero is goingout of fashion. In fact, one
of the reviews of my book wascalled and they called it how Ted Lasso
(09:37):
killed Tony Soprano, which is moreor less true. Well, and then
there's the woke culture too. Inthe cancel culture. It's getting to the
point where, all right, youdon't dare make something that's even mildly offensive
because they'll boycott you or or worse, called you into court. I think
that's true. I mean, Imean, there are many many examples of
(10:01):
you know, Apple TV. Whenit started, it was kind of a
feel good streamer, and apparently TimCook would say over and over again about
the different shows on Apple, thenew shows on Apple, don't make them
so mean. And now Apple hasdumped a number of uh that they severed
(10:26):
their connection to John Stewart because hewas reporting on controversial subjects that were too
controversial. That dropped a number ofshows like After Party, City of Fire,
and Suspicion, And they reportedly canceledto see a copalist adaptation of Edith
Wharton's The Custom of the Country becauseit had an unlikable lead character. So
(10:48):
that kind of thing is happening overand over again, not just an Apple,
but on other streamers. Peter Biskinand Pandora's Box, How Guts,
Gyle and Greed up into television.If you feel the way about television the
way I do, you'll love thisbook. And Peter I thank you for
joining us today. Thank you thanksfor listening to Later with Lee Matthews,
(11:09):
the Lee Matthews Podcast, and rememberto listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons
from five to seven and iHeartMedia presentation
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