Clint quizzes Dr. Jenn to see if she knows what "cushioning" means in relationships.

As Clint is learning to say NO more, does that mean he wants to stop doing out podcast? Clint quizzes Dr. Jenn to see if she knows what "cushioning" means in relationships. And Dr. Jenn schools Clint on the factors needed to end sexual coercion.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Doctor Jen, what's you eating?I am eating a I think it's called
the Super Spinach Salad from Trader Joe's. Oh, how boring. What's it?
Oh? It's great. It's gota layer of quenoa on the bottom,
and then it's got spinach and tomatoesand grated carrots, and it's got
some chickpeas, say shit peas,Yeah, some shit pias, some chickpeas,

(00:26):
and a little at amammee and somecranberries for a little sweetness. It
has this very good like I thinka carrot ginger dressing. Okay, it
actually does sound good. It's reallygood. It's like I think it's my
favorite. Well, I mean becausethey have good salads there, but it's
my favorite vegetarian salad that they havethere. So, you know, when

(00:46):
I'm not blowing my diet, whenI'm eating right for the for the gut
health that I was talking about acouple of weeks ago. Uh huh.
One of my favorite things, itis just so incredibly good, is two
pieces of the twenty one grain breaddays and then just a little bit of
avocado mayo and then a little bitof the leafy lettuce, you know,

(01:07):
spinach whatever, baby spinach or thefifty to fifty whichever, and then some
red onions cut up, could besome mushrooms, but not all the time.
And then so those are a littlered and yellow and orange peppers.
And then, man, I gottatell you, this is the topper for
me. This is what makes itso incredibly good. Is a dill pickle

(01:32):
sliced down the middle, because itgives it this nice just sour sort of
davory too that it's really really good. Sometimes I'll put a hummus instead of
the mayo. Yeah, yeah,but it is one of the best sandwiches
I've had. I could eat itevery day and it's and it's good for
you. It sounds, but itsounds good. That's fun. Oh it

(01:53):
makes it. Man, all right, what are we talking about today?
What do we have? What dowe have going on here? You have
any more therapy stores? I mean, you know, I did talk to
my therapist monday about just giving myselfpermission to say no, I still don't
do it enough, but I'm workingon it. Yeah. Can you think

(02:15):
of a specific circumstance in your liferight now that you would like to practice
that that's not too personal to share? Publicly, I mean probably more often.
Well, so let me say this. There's a there is a person
who I really really want to helpwith a charity event coming up in June,

(02:42):
and she has done me the honorof asking me three years in her
own Now I want to be thegrand marshal in this motorcycle ride, which
is really great. Been a grandmarshal, and it's a good cause survivors
of suicide laws, and I wantto do it. Yeah. The issue
because my son is going to college. I don't know where he's going and
that will depend on when and wherewe are flying with him or driving him

(03:06):
to move into his dorm. SoI make a chance, yeah, admitting
to that, and then all ofa sudden, that's the weekend we're supposed
to go. Yeah, so it'sa busy year for that. So I
finally had to say, look,I don't know the answer as to whether
or not I can do it,and that I guess means no, because
I don't want to leave you hangingthough I'm going to help her promote in
the whole thing. Yeah, butit was, you know it, I
really wanted to do this one,but I had to say no, So

(03:28):
I did, and I wasn't afraidto say that. Does that make sense?
Yeah, well, yeah, becauseyou have a very specific uncertainty as
a reason why I Barnman, I'mcurious with the example you just gave.
If you do say no and youfeel bad, do you then still feel
obligated then to help these people?And then does it take like time of

(03:49):
yours because you feel guilty for sayingno? So yes, But generally what
I'll do is I'll then say,hey, let me help you promote,
which really doesn't take any time forme. It's just a matter of you
know, promoting, because I havethe platform to do that with. Yeah,
thank God for that. But itcan take some time by you know,
okay, fine, you don't knowhow to post your you know,

(04:10):
it's really easy to post events onmotorcycle Monkey, and there are a few
people who I just know don't knowhow or don't want to take time,
and they'll send me the flyer,so I'll do it. It only takes
a few minutes. But when youadd that up with several others in the
middle of other things that you're doing, it, does it does? Well?
I have to come up to theoffice to do it. Yeah,

(04:31):
always near the office. It definitelydoes take a little of it, but
again it's not it's nothing major.But yeah, if I can help physically,
I will. That's rare these daysthough, I have to be honest.
But the other part is, youknow, even if I am in
town, I'd have to shut downthe shop in order to do that on
a Saturday. I'm only open fivedays a month. Ye, shut down
the shop. It's going to beto go on a family vacation or because

(04:55):
I'm sick, or you know,because I got to have that money rolling
in to pay that rent. Andalso people want to come there, or
a big family. And you know, it's not that I wouldn't ever like
for May Ride eighteen. Yeah,Charlie Davidson, that's my baby. It's
for the troops. Yeah, Ihave to shut shopped down. There's no
choice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's it is tough, and there
is a little bit bit of guiltin there. But that's another thing the

(05:15):
therapist brought up was, hey,have you finished your book The Disease to
Please? Yeah, I've stopped sincea couple of months ago reading it because
I am now at a point inthe book where it is no more just
reading it is you got to dostuffy yep. Twenty one day I admitted
it to her. Oh my god, you you know that kind of thing.
Well, so what are you goingto do about that? I told

(05:36):
her, I'm going to read atleast some of it before next Monday.
But here's the rub. I don'tknow where it is now, and I
don't know what I would have donewith it. No, honestly, I
guess you'd be sitting right here.It's always what would I have done with
it? Because it's important to me? Right? Did you slip it like
in a bag somewhere when you wenton a trip, hoping you could get
some reading in. That's what I'mwondering. So it's funny you say that

(05:57):
I'm going to go check that afterthe podcast, and I'm hoping it's one
of two places. But the funnything is your book. I still know
exactly where that's at. It's sittingright here, and even though I finished
it, it's like, you know, it's like I need to treat the
other book like I do yours.Not for how long it took me to
read it, but for how muchI care. And I want to make
sure I keep that in my possessionbecause you signed it's for you. It
was a gift. Yeah, Ithought that was really nice. Thank you.

(06:19):
Oh yeah. But anyway, that'swait. So I have a question
leading from this. Do you doyou feel obligated to keep doing our podcast
together. I'll be honest, youare ninety percent of the reason that I
still do this because you don't wantto say no to me and disappoint me
exactly. But well, no,I'll be honest. But what we're when

(06:41):
we're doing the podcast, I enjoyit. Yeah, same, it's the
appointment that sitting down. I knowit's the same way for you because you
are busy. So it's not likeI'm putting any more effort than you are
into it. And I do enjoyit while we're doing it. But it
is like, I'll give you anexample today, since you asked, I
would never brought this up put Yeah, I was literally I ran straight from
work. I did everything I hadto do earlier than normal. This is

(07:03):
Sarah, God bless her. She'sgot to get back to her kid by
like nine nine thirty in the hospital. I'm surprised she's even coming in right
now. But he's doing better.So that's good. Oh yeah, you
know, like we talked about this, right, No, we didn't talk
about my on air partner, Sarah'sson. No, oh boy, let
me tell you. Sorry, that'sa well to order I had it.

(07:25):
I thought I had it set forthree o'clock, but it's it's to order
batteries for the radios for May.Right. But so last week and then
I promise I'll get back to yourquestion Monday morning last week. Yeah,
because we're on yeah, yeah,yeah, week and half ago. We
are in the studio. She getsa phone call, Oh, okay,

(07:46):
I'll be there. Well, herson, Shane had one hundred and three
temperature, eleven years old, hockeyplayer, great kid, good shape.
Her husband was then putting him inthe bath because he had thrown up on
himself and he was he was actuallyhallucinating. Oh, we got to get
this kid to the hospital. Sothey took him to Rady's. She finished
the show with me early early.Yeah. We recorded so that she could

(08:07):
get out of it. We don'tnormally get what we did. Yeah.
Uh, And of course I'm like, oh my god, go you know,
I'm not the boss, but evenif who's gonna say no? To
that. Yeah, she goes andnext thing I know, she's out through
the rest of the week. Andunderstandably, so this was so serious.
Oh, she's a hard charger,she's a very hard worker, she's very

(08:28):
creative. But anyway, so Iknew if she's missing, she's missing for
a reason. So it turns outthat his and I'm finding this out each
day throughout last week checking on her. Yeah, and you know, she's
asking for prayers. So I'm actuallygoing on the air and saying, please
pray for the Bebe family and shame. So it was a unique opportunity to

(08:48):
talk about my faith, right justjust in that way, not going into
great detail, just hey, pray, and we had a great response from
that. But here's the thing.So started off. I found out later
that it started off as what dothey call it a strep pneumonia, which
I didn't even know those two coco incides. Oh geez. So he
gets this horrible neckache, headache allthe way up into his head, then

(09:09):
the throwing up, the fever ofone hundred and three and he starts losing.
So that is a sign of itturned into meningitis bacterial shit. Yes,
So I went online to see howserious this was, because I remember
a friend back in the day gettingit and she was okay after a couple
of injection spinal taps, but shedidn't have it quite as bad as this

(09:33):
poor guy did. Go So heends up on a ventilator. They have
to put him in a swelling ofthe brain. No brutal brutals like I
didn't. They didn't know if hewas gonna make it. Oh my god,
yes. So they're in there andthis poor family while they're in there
sleeping at Ronald McDonald house, andthank god for the Rady Children's Hospital,

(09:56):
let me for you know, fortheir knowledge and their compassion. But there
was a point that I found outthat he started bleeding. He bit his
tongue, his tongue swelled out ofhis mouth, his I think he was
bleeding into his lungs or something somethinglike that. And they had to literally
tell the parents, you need toleave right now, going along So they

(10:16):
and two hours later then told himwhat happened, and they, you know,
but he crashed a couple of timeswhere where it is terrible. It's
terrible, and he's he's now relearningto walk, he's relearning to throw the
ball, he's relearning to use theirrestroom. But here's the thing. The
blessing out of all of this is, I mean, even in enlarged heart

(10:37):
that they think will heal. Hisboon's then affected. It's crazy what this
does to you. They said,had you been in he later getting in
here, it might have been alot harder to save him, which we
all know what they mean to sayby saying that. But he he now.
So he's now off the ventilator.He is improving daily. He's had

(11:01):
they think he may have had somewhat do you call it again, epilepus
seizures. Oh geez. Yeah,the enlarged heart, I mean, all
of this, and he's getting better. But the biggest blessing is this,
other than him living altogether, right, is that the after the MRI,
the meningitis never touched his brain.It got to the brain fluid ever touched.

(11:24):
Had it touched his brain, we'dbe talking a whole different life.
O my god. And so sheasked, how do you even get this?
Yeah, and they said it isvery just extremely rare, and it
can it just this can happen.It's very rare. Yeah. But then
I asked, Sarah, the question, why in the hell do you get

(11:46):
a meningitis shot as a kid ifit's not going to fucking prevent it?
Because I was angry we get aman and we don't get a menot I
think we did, either you andI, but I think they do now.
I think I don't know. Yes, see, I've never heard of
that either. I've never heard ofthat. But the men and Jedi shot
covers the thirteen most common strands,and the one that he got is so

(12:07):
extremely rare they don't even give youa shot for that. Yeah, you
talk about, well, horrible yetfantastic that he's doing better. What could
have happened? But it scared thecrap out of me, justly and other
people with kids. And she's atrooper, man, she's been in Monday,
Tuesday, today, and I keeptelling her obviously I am not a

(12:28):
boss at all. Yeah, butman, I'm ready to you know,
because I did it Tuesday through Fridayon my own Wow show for years,
so I can do that. It'sentertaining with me and Sarah. It's not
going to be, but it's butit's holding down the fort. So that's
what happened. So the point isyou know, so she's got to leave
early. Wait quick question. Dothey do they expect a full recovery at

(12:52):
this point? I do believe theydo. Well, they don't know about
the site, but it it buthe should everything should be Okay, I
think they believe that's going to happen. Yes, with the brain when it
comes down, but yeah, everythingelse and all the vital stuff. They
do believe. And they do thinkthat the vision will as well. They're
just not sure about that yet.Okay, yeah, so thank god.

(13:13):
Right, But so that means sheleaves early, which means I have a
few more responsibilities before I leave,which puts me later into the show and
show. Oh right, kidding ye, by I'll do it for the rest
of our career if that's what sheneeds at this point, you know what
I mean. Yeah, But thenI had to run and get a blood
draw for a PSA. She waswondering what that was. Oh okay,

(13:37):
yeah, so the numbers are atthree point five, which is not that
high. Wait, this is yourprostate stuff. Yes, yeah, because
it's normally two point six, twopoints seven. The highest has ever been
a three point one. Back thenhe said, you know, let's put
you on this antibiotic which is backto which is some I think, some
brutal shit. Oh and so Ithink that's why. I think that's why

(13:58):
my mouth was so dry when Iwas not feeling well for six Remember I
told you I think that's a sideeffect of that. I actually know that,
and I don't know why. Yes, you're right, I think that
was the DR. I think youhad multiple things going on that were causing
you physical discomfort. Yeah, butagain, never in my life do I
ever remember something a sickness and illnessanything, Yeah, making me seven six

(14:18):
and a half days to get overever COVID, Like yeah, COVID three
days. But anyway, So thenI go to get my blood drawn,
I'm running over to send off somecoffee. I'm then running to try and
hook up this printer. You know. So I have days like this just
about almost every day. But thething for the podcast to answer your question

(14:39):
is, yes, there are timesthat like, oh my god. Then
I even thought, well, maybeI'll talk to doctor Jen about us doing
seasons, you know what I mean, Like a lot of podcasts do that.
They'll do like, you know,nine months out of the year or
ten months, you know, OrI thought about Okay, why don't we
pre record three, two or threelike we used to. Yeah, true,
and that would probably fix it.But yeah, however, you do

(15:00):
know we miss like weeks at atime, and that's common. I don't
ever want to do that because here'sthe thing. Yours is for work,
Yours is for travel when we haveto, so you cannot do it no
matter what. So that's the bestexcuse on the planet me. Mine is
damn it. And this has happened. My computer isn't working. Not my
computer, the zoom isn't working.Right, What am I going to do?

(15:22):
And now I have no time torest the week things like that.
So because of those instances, I'mlike, I don't want to do it
when I when I really could,right, But then we sit down and
we do this, and I justlove being in touch with you. I
love talking to It's meaningful. Yes, it's like I think, well,
God that you know the gentleman thatemails us, even if it's a ton,

(15:43):
if it's just that one guy fromLa, Well, I know,
and I know my sister and myfriend Sarah love listening to the podcast and
they comment on it. But Ido hope there's more than three listeners out
there. There's another guy that occasionallymessages, and then we do get some
random ones sometimes, but I dohope there's more than like six of you.
Right, six of you were amazing, but yes, much appreciated.

(16:06):
But again, you know, thewhole thing is is that then I sit
down with you and I go,damn it, I really don't want to
I don't want to lose this.Yeah, it's so strange and it's weird
that you asked me that today becauseI'm not joking, doctor Jen. When
I was rushing to get doing whatI was doing, my we about six
more minutes. Are you okay withthat? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
we got Well, I got twoWe've got two topics to touch on.

(16:30):
God are related to actually sex talkinstead of just talk talk. You know
what, let's just push off onthat. I love doing it. My
buddy Mark brought it up to dayand says, dude, you need to
cut things out of your life.That. Yeah, that's why I was
asking. Yeah, yeah, butyou know, I just I don't know.
Maybe we could we'll talk about thislater, but you know, as

(16:51):
long as maybe we just record afew at a time, you know what
I mean, and that way.Yeah, then then it would be easy
that way, right. Well,it's much nicer if we do that person
too. I liked when we usedto do that. I used to come,
you could come in the studio andwe'd record like three at a time.
Yeah, we could do that.Yeah, okay, anyway, and
again I know you're taking time too, so it's not just me, but

(17:11):
but your significant other maybe cushioning andyou wouldn't even know it. What do
you think cushioning is? I'm reversingthis. It's a term for relationship.
Oh wait, okay, wait waitwait wait okay, wait okay, wait
say that. Wait so you're askingme what a word means? Yes,
because yeah, now we only havefive minutes left. Yes, and I
know you've got to get to something. But your significant other maybe cushioning and

(17:33):
you wouldn't even know it. Andwhat do you think that? Oh,
you're okay, cushioning and so thisis somebody that you're in a serious relationship
with, yes, and then maybecushioning you ha. I don't know,
Like I would think that term ifyou were like just dating, would be
like, oh, you always keepsort of cushions around you people that keep

(17:55):
you comfortable. You know that youcould just reach out to that make you
feel good, or maybe you canhook up with But with your significant other?
Is it sexual? Is it emotional? Give me a hint and answer
to that. No, give mea hint. I'm asking for a hint.
It's definitely emotional. Definitely emotional.And is it it's some Is it

(18:18):
it's some form of like avoidance?Only because I think I know you well
enough to know somebody else said avoidance, I'd say I don't think so,
but now I well, no,it's actually not. It's not about avoidance,
all right. I give up inthe nature because we don't have much
time. I give up. Whatis it? You actually were pretty good
with it, I think, Butso this is what brought it up.

(18:41):
Cushioning typically indicates an inability to existwithout a relationship, and more often than
not, our back burner fulfills orseems to fulfill, something that's missing in
our primary relationship. So you areoh sor having an emotional affair that can
turn into sex. But years ago, writer Sarah feltppable chemistry with a coworker.
She'd been married for fourteen years atthe time. But her friendship with

(19:03):
the man was flirtatious and she startedto fixate on it. They communicated regularly
and had copy dates. Then eventuallythey slept together. The mind was already
crossed even before the physical relationship.Again, Sarah had invested a figment of
a relationship until it became a realone, to the detriment of her marriage.
So there's a lot more than this. But whether it's boredom or complacency

(19:23):
or unresolved frustration, I'm not sure. But yeah, because it makes them
see other people in a different lightand can evalue and elevate the human connection.
So they're called backburner relationships. Yeah, questioning interesting. So actually I
was my kind of vibe around it. Well, that's what I was thinking.
You were close, correct, Ijust did. So it's basically really

(19:45):
having people who are well, Iwould say, even if it doesn't even
if it hasn't crossed a physical line, often these emotional relationships, part of
what they fulfill is that you feelseen, you feel attracted, you feel
desired, you feel that new relationshipenergy with somebody, that excitement, that

(20:06):
vulnerability, that intimacy. So evenif they haven't crossed a line, I
would say it still has like someof those components of feeling wanted and seen
and valued that are connected to sexualenergy, they can be Yeah, so
you know that's the thing is it'sI guess emotional cheating sort of, and

(20:29):
then hers was physical. But andit says cushioning stems from a place of
insecurity or underlying feelings of dissatisfaction inyour current relationship, which we kind of
knew. But well, yeah,and I think, yeah, I mean,
emotional affairs are But you know,it's interesting. I ask if it
was avoiding something, I would sayit's avoiding something, and that you're avoiding

(20:49):
having the conversations you need to havewith your partner avoid. Yes, yeah,
you're so good at what you do. Because the last thing this says
is when you're more insightful and mindfulabout your thoughts and feelings, you can
figure out if you want to remainin your relationship and communicate with your partner
instead of going outside the boundaries ofyour relationship. Successful couples turn inwards,

(21:12):
not outwards. Yes, exactly,exactly. It is you're taking steps away
from your partner, but then andthen probably blaming your partner and then potentially
talking to that other person about it, who then you feel understood and scene
and validated. And that is allwhat I call, yeah, taking steps
away from your partner, and thatis absolutely avoiding the difficult conversations. And

(21:33):
I could say, I know somepeople have those difficult conversations, but then
like their partner doesn't do anything aboutit or won't work on their relationship.
But that is then a place tolook like why am I still in this
relationship? Then? So yeah,okay, so you do you have to
leave in one minute or do wehave like, yeah, let's do let's
just do Yeah, let's do anotherfive minutes. I okay, Yeah,

(21:55):
it was just my timeline to tryto get something done. But I found
out my wife is going to beabout ten fifteen minutes later than I thought.
Oh gotcha, great, Okay.So I did want to share because
last week we were talking about howApril was Sexual Assault Awareness Month and so
and I said, I, youknow, I have a PR woman,
Nick Bryant, who's been great towork with, and so she hooked me
up with it. Last week Iwas in San Antonio, I was on
the news talking about these topics,and then she hooked me up with a

(22:22):
what's it? Oh, I'll gooff again anyway, and she hooked me
up with a writer editor at HealthNews to talk. But it was I
and so I just had that calllike two hours ago or something, and
it's still on the top of mymind. And she was really kind of
picking my brain as a sociologist,like what's this big picture? What would
it look like to really end sexualviolence in our society and sexual abuse?

(22:48):
And I really liked that really bigpicture question because I think, you know,
I went to chat GPT to seewhat it said about this, and
it was giving me things like weneed to strength and legislation, and we
need we need training for law enforcement, and we need workplace policies and media
responsibility and bystander intervention and all ofthese things that are really valuable, but

(23:12):
I don't feel like they get tothe heart of it. So I'm curious,
what would you say if you think, like, what would we have
to do change overall to end sexualviolence, sexual abuse, rape in our
culture? So okay, So forme, the easiest one is rape because

(23:33):
that is just absolutely brutal. Sexualviolence is also brutal. And what was
the other one is sexual well,sexual abuse. But you know what I'm
going to say, where the lineis on that, That's the thing.
I don't know what the line ison the What I want to say is
where I took this is not peoplewho are purposely going out and wanting to
rape other people like we will.We can't how are we ever going to

(23:53):
end? We can't end that.We can't end somebody that you know wants
to kill people and goes to killpsycho, Right, that's their own thing,
right, I'm so what I'm talkingabout is and so I think and
I think the term sexual violence isit's an umbrella term, but I think
it's what you just said points tohow it's often misunderstood, which is why
I like to speak to like sexualcoercion, and that is like this ongoing

(24:19):
gray area that's so common in sexualinteractions where you're like you wait for them
next morning, You're like I didn'twant to do those things, or you're
like, oh geez, yes shewas talking to me, but she was
blacked out and I didn't know it. And this ongoing like pushing, pushing
the number of women because you know, consent is one of my areas who
say I told him off the bat. I did not want to have sex,
and at the end of the nightwe ended up having sex because he

(24:41):
just kept pushing and he just keptpushing and I finally gave it. That
is so so common still, yeahand yeah, and then you put that
together with the aspects of childhood sexualabuse, and that like, right,

(25:02):
if there's really people who are kindof messed up in the head, they're
going to do things we can't stop. But how do we what about the
approach of teaching kids more, howto talk about these things, how to
know that that's wrong, where theconsent is normal to them and anybody that
violates that is the wrong person,not them. So so, and I'm

(25:23):
not trying to make a joke aboutthis. I'm really going to refer to
a comedian. Oh my god,sorry, it's after three. I thought
I had a bunch of alarm set. I'm sorry about that. Okay.
So Bill Burr he did Paper Tiger, and there was he talked about again.
He was making a joke about it, but I took from it how

(25:45):
this could happen in a man's brain, and like, for instance, he's
talking about how you know, thedelivery of a woman like, you know
how many cats? Stop it?Stop it? And he was very funny
about it. Yeah, and itseemed pretty lighthearted the way he did it.
And then he goes, But thenyou get to court, he goes,
and then you got the sonographer whoeverit is, reading the transcript from

(26:07):
you know what what the woman says, and now it's not stop it,
stop it. It's like stop it, stop it. Oh my god,
you know, don't or whatever,You're so bad. And his joke was
funny. But I have to tellyou, as a man, I think
that's where we need to be informedand women, even at a young age,
the difference between oh, kind offlirting like oh, stop it,

(26:32):
but between that and stop it?Does that make sense? Yes? But
if here's the thing, I don'tthink there's as much of a difference in
those as you're saying there are.There may not be, There may not
be. Yes. I think that'sthe problem. It's as women, we
are taught to not rock the boat. We don't want the person to get
angry at us. We don't wantthe person to hurt us, yes,
which is wrong. And because wecan, we are generally the quote unquote

(26:56):
physically inferior in a situation. Sotherefore, if you just say no stop,
that other person could get angry atyou you put on top of it.
But maybe you like the attention thatyou do like this person. You
just don't want to be doing whatthey are trying to do in that moment,
and so you're trying to do itin a you are saying no stop.

(27:17):
You are trying to be nice aboutit, and you know what,
that's true, and you know whatcoming from me actually, now that I'm
hearing it back from you, I'mjust the kind of guy who would be
that girl because I no, yes, like yes, god, no,
no, no, I'd find it. I'll have another beer, you know
that kind of thing. Yes,exactly what we're saying. Well, for
a reason, not because you're beingcoy and flirting, but for a specific

(27:41):
reason because something is making you feeluncomfortable in that moment. So I believe,
based on you giving that back tome and me hearing it from you,
gives me a sort of a littledifferent perspective, and that well,
not that I had a completely differentperspective, but you know what I mean,
just a little little altered in agood way that I think we need
to have courses like you alluded to, for men and women, to boys

(28:06):
and girls together to I don't knowwhat age, because this is where I
get sensitive about it, but teachthem at some point the role playing.
For instance, you wouldn't want tohurt your friend, would you, Tommy?
Well, no, you wouldn't wantto hurt her either, right,
would you, Tommy? No?You know, you sort of get him
into this Q and A thing andthen go, well, here's an example.

(28:30):
And I think the example could beyou're wrestling with your buddy Michael,
and I'm just I'm assuming this isa straight male, that's all I'm doing.
It could be whichever sex you're notattracted to. Let's put it that
way, a friend of yours thatthere's no sexual attraction at all. Yeah,
and play a scenario out like givethem examples of So if you and
Michael are wrestling and you get himin a headlock and it goes from all

(28:56):
right, let me go dude toman, you're hurting me. Okay,
well you know what you got tolet him go? Oh? Well,
you think of it like that scenariowith a woman without her saying you're hurting
me. If she says to stop, stop, it doesn't matter how it's
still so the issue with those typesof approaches is that they make it very
black and white, and they're nottaken in the nuances of what it is

(29:17):
to be in a situation where ifyou're not overtly getting hurt. That's the
thing, Like that makes sense,and that is what you just said.
There is most of our approaches tothese topics in teaching because like we make
it black and white, because weare not talking about, well, what
do people do when they do likea person and don't want to hurt their
feelings but are saying no to something? They often say, nah, I

(29:42):
don't think so, No, I'mnot interested. And people like you who
are like pleasers. That's the thingthat doesn't because it doesn't in you'rly,
well, I'm not hurting this person, I'm not doing anything wrong. I
think they like this too and wantto do it. We It is not
black and white in those ways.I actually there are situations that are,
but most of the encounters where thishappens are not that. Well, you

(30:06):
know another scenario and this the onlything I can again, this is also
black and white. But I getwhat you're saying. We just need some
I think, some knowledge and somecourt courses, I guess, or some
what's the word still building? Skillbuilding? That's because I hate to say
training. I hate that word inthis scenario, but still building is great.

(30:26):
So you know my buddy who Ithink I told you this before,
he was newly divorced. He waswith a woman in his hot tub,
and I loved his approach. I'venever done this before ever. Yeah,
he just looked at her and hegoes, you know, would you like
to have sex right now? Iwould, and she goes yes, and
they did and now they're married.Yes, that is such a great approach.

(30:48):
Yes, but if the guy doesn'thave that in him, and a
lot of us don't. Okay,so you go in for a kiss,
if she resists, back away.Yeah, but I do think that,
and I think you would agree withthis, that women especially need to feel
empowered enough and informed enough to knowthat it's okay to say not right now,

(31:11):
no right, and may have tofeel safe enough to do that exactly.
And now that's another thing I guessis vetting who you're hanging out with,
because there are some stories holy crap, But we don't know this ahead
of times. Sometimes and then wealso don't know then if somebody then keeps
drinking, if somebody then was doingsome draw like, we can't predict people's

(31:33):
behaviors. Yeah, you're right,and you're right again, I'm going black
and white on this, but youknow, maybe just maybe some good ideas
are if it's a first time date, maybe you don't let them pick you
up, Maybe you meet him inthe place and make sure that it's a
place that's got other people in it, and then maybe you just make sure
that you do not leave with them. It's like, hey, I've had

(31:53):
a great night. Yes, AndI know I know some women that started
like implementing that for themselves. They'relike, I wait till we're I am
at least a month in before Iwill accept their invitation to come to their
house for like dinner and wine attheir house. They're going to make dinner
for me. And they're like,I don't want to because I don't want
to be put in that situation whereI may feel pushed or coerced to do

(32:16):
something that I'm not ready for.I'll say this right now, which sucks.
Which sucks that they have to dothat, and you can't just go
and have a nice dinner and notfeel like you're gonna be like part of
their seduction scene. I'm gonna tellyou right now by now. Again,
this is many, many years agowhen I was single, but and I
am not a player, like I'mnot. I'm not that confident swab guy.

(32:38):
I just wasn't. But when Iknew a girl liked me and she
expressed interests and I knew we werewe're both physically attractive, that's when I
could maybe make a move. Butwhat I'm saying is to your point about
going to the house, I cannotremember unless it was just a female friend
with no attraction. Mm hmm.I cannot remember a scenario when I single

(33:00):
that if a girl was coming tomy house that I did not have the
desire or plan to at least foolaround. Yes, and I can tell
you because I am not a player, so many escaped my clutches because I
was too big a wooss do thatkind of jokingly. But there were even
scenarios where girls wanted to and Iwasn't wanting to because I knew I didn't

(33:22):
want them for more than that.And then there were some scenarios that I
folded and I went, yeah,yeah, you could use this right now,
but straight up, if they're comingto my house when I was single,
oh less than a minute. God, we have on this pod.
I know. I didn't even getto give my answers to it. Quick.
Oh crap, it's gonna cut usoff. Go go go shoot ah,
okay, on, we need totalk about We needed better skills to

(33:42):
talk about the nitty gritty of actualsexual topics and what people are doing,
like details like we can't be asembarrassed and uncomfortable and think it's inappropriate to
talk about details in this way.Second, we need emotional awareness and ownership,
so we are aware of our ownmotivations, why we're doing it,
and so we can attune to others. Number three, reflect on your own
behaviors in that like the night.If you wake up in the morning and

(34:07):
lastly, you had a sexual encounterand you cannot be one hundred percent sure
that the other person wanted to doeverything that you did and consented to it,
and you're not one hundred percent surethat you wanted to do all of
those things, then you need toreflect on how to change your behaviors and
how you can communicate more and moreclearly and not be making assumptions. Number
four parents starting at a really youngage with normalizing consent conversations and the easiest

(34:32):
place to start, like with yourthree year olds when they're going to bed,
don't assume that they should you justthey have to give you a hug
that you could say, like doyou want a hug? Do you want
to high five? Do you wanta fist bump? Do you want to
wave? You start teaching them bodyautonomy of what their needs are and what
they want and what feels right tothem. Don't make them kiss Aunt Sally
and give her a hug when shegave her them a birthday present, like,

(34:55):
teach them that they have a rightto awareness of their body and boundaries
around their body, and then teachthem that everyone else deserves that same body
autonomy, awareness and respect. There. Wow, that last one. I
got to admit. When you firstsaid a three year old, I literally
was going to make fun of you. But then when the way you explain
that high five hug this, don'tmake them kiss an Sally if they don't

(35:17):
want to. I gotta tell youthat makes sense to me, and I
never in a million years live ever, And that's why when we talk about
quote unquote sex education starting when they'retoddlers, that's what we mean. Well,
if conversations like that mean conversations likethat is acceptable, what do you
mean? Who? Who? Whatyou say? They? Who? They?
When I hear the media or Isee someone do a write up on

(35:39):
it, or they show a teacherwho went beyond not a teacher, sorry,
an adult go beyond where they shouldhave and took it out of context,
those are the things that make meworry. But the way you just
put it, this is a standardapproach for sex educators. So I don't
know that the media hovery that you'regetting of this is actually accurate and not

(36:01):
bullshit. I'm just gonna say everybit of information we get I take with
a grain of salt, which iswhy it pisces me off. That's a
whole other subject. I think ifyou are intentionally posting something that you know
is untrue just to get a riseout of people in that regard in something
that serious, yes you need topay for that, like people do it
all the time. Yes, hey, that was awesome. By the way,

(36:23):
anything post that online at all orno, well it will be because
this was part of an interview throughHealth News, so I think it'll be
posted next week, so I'll beposting it online. Well what her write
up of it, So yeah,you're smart. Thank you all right,
doctor jen Joe, thanks for takingthe time. Have a great day.

(36:43):
Yeah you too,