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December 5, 2024 41 mins
Clint and Dr. Jenn discuss whether the new TikTok "We listen and we don't judge" trend healthy for relationships. An unexpected guest joins to discuss shifts in men's roles in relationships over time. And...should Clint really be taking advice from the book, The Way of the Superior Man?!
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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Doctor Jen, how are you, hey, clan.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
This is our second to last episode ever.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
I know it's so weird. I've been thinking about that,
I really have. It's like about it, you know, it's weird.
It's a I'm gonna miss us doing this together and
the reason to get together as often as we do.
I'm gonna miss people giving us feedback and why we
do it. But today is an example of why for me,

(00:27):
for now it's necessary and for you as well. You're
as busy as I am, if not busier.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
You know.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
I'm up at Freedom Dogs, this military dog training program
for our heroes in the military and veterans as well.
And I might have stayed a little longer to ask
more questions, but I got enough information. I'm gonna post
about it, you know, tomorrow. No big deal. But it
was just one of those things in my mind where
I just feel like I have so many appointments, so
many meetings, that it's like, okay, one less is good.

(00:53):
Though if I were to choose, this wouldn't be the
one I get rid of. There would be about two
or three ahead of it. But I can't choose those meetings.
So yeah, but it's bittersweet. How about you got it?

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah? Now, yeah, I feel mixed on it, but I
think this time it feels right. It absolutely feels like
the right decision.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
So well, and it's all your fault. I just have
to say that that's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
You know, I'm so full of crap. You're like, man, whatever,
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
I was like even if it was Jones, like, don't care.
It's all good, it's right, it ran its course. We
have done We have done good in the world. I
have gained skills. I love how you posted this show,
how you bring in humor. I've learned a lot from
watching you and working with you, given me more like
think quickly on my feet skills Like so I've gained

(01:41):
a lot. But we could talk about all that next week.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I what you've taught me so yay.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Good, Okay, So what I wanted to I got a
couple things to bring up today, but one of them.
Have you heard this TikTok trend? This is like last week,
so it's probably already passed in this passe, but I
stick around a little bit. It's called we listen and
we don't judge. Have you heard of this?

Speaker 1 (02:04):
I mean I understand the principle, but no, I've not
heard of that track.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
You get a couple sitting in front of their phone
recording it, and they say in unison, we listen and
we don't judge, And then one of them says, so
you know those times when you call me from the
grocery store and you ask if we're out of certain things?

(02:30):
And she like starts looking at him suspiciously. He's like yeah,
and he goes, and I always say, oh, yeah, we're
I'll check. Oh yeah, we're out of it. She's like yeah,
or I guess she texts him. She texts him. She
texts him for the grocery store, ask if they're out
of some She's like yeah, and you always say we're
out of it. He's like yeah, he goes, yeah, I
never get up and check. He goes, I'm just too lazy.
I just tell you we're out of it. Oh no,

(02:52):
And she's like what. He goes, we listen and we
don't judge.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
They cut to the next thing. Because the thing is,
I can imagine of these turn into arguments because you
could tell them. They cut the video, and then she goes, so,
do you remember the other night when there was that
we were sitting around with the dogs and our baby
and you said, oh my god, did you fart? What
is that terrible smell? And I blamed it on the baby,
and then I blamed it on the dogs. He's like yeah,

(03:18):
and he's like, was that you, And she goes, yeah,
that was totally me. And he's like, oh my god,
it smells so bad. And she's like, don't judge, don't judge.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
That's pretty funny.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, so that's the thing. They were very funny. But
some of them. I watched a whole bunch of them. Actually,
I got interviewed for I don't even know who it was.
Somebody wanted my like relationship advice perspective on it for
some online magazine. So that's why I ended up watching
a bunch of them. And I was like, I both
love this and hate this because there's a total performance aspect, right,

(03:52):
because you're airing your dirty laundry to get views, and
you know, and I hope that something goes viral, and
oftentimes it's funny and you could really get a strong
sense of individual personalities, and I think the personality and
the help of their marriage or their relationship in how

(04:12):
they responded and what they were hiding from each other,
because sometimes, I mean the laughter that they had sometimes
it was just like infectious, it was adorable. But there
were times that you're like, oh shit, buddy, like you
are your like wife is doing all the work and
you're lazy and you're constantly just fibbing because you don't

(04:32):
feel like doing stuff. Or you know, she's asking for
a meal and you're like, no, we're out of that,
or we can't or out of propane or whatever. He goes, Yeah,
I just didn't feel like making it. So it's like
the number of times it was something that somebody didn't
feel like doing, particularly the men, right, and and that
they then just flied about it like that was shocking

(04:53):
to me. Yeah, I mean there's clearly so much space,
like have conversations you're not having how often people are
actually they have white lives and they're daily interactions with
each other. Go ahead, where are you going to say?

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Well, it is kind of your thing, But here's my deal. Look,
you know there is in my opinion, there is it
is impossible for you to have those conversations if they're
real and not just for entertainment. If you told me
that every time I called you nine out of ten
times that I'm coming home and you just said didn't
feel like kiitting up, didn't want to make the meal,
or didn't want to tell you just made you go

(05:27):
buy it again on your way home after working or
whatever you're doing. You are going to judge. There is
no way you're not. Wouldn't you agree?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yes? Yes, absolutely, So the fact is, and it's not necessary.
It's not a bad thing to judge. Now, Sometimes you
know the dynamics in a relationship both people have created it.
Maybe she's constantly not checking on her own and she's
constantly because I've seen couples that do this instead of
like getting up and doing something on their own, they're

(05:56):
constantly hey, can you do this for me? Will you
do this for me? Dotata whatever? And I could see
if you're on the receiving end of that, like ah,
and you say no and the other person gets mad,
But then you're like, why am I doing this all
the time for you? So I imagine there's more depths
to these, but it was it was I don't know

(06:16):
what shocked me was the number of things, of little
things in daily interactions that they were lying about. That
was kind of shocking to me. So I don't know.
So I'm wondering, what do you think? What do you
think you little little white lies with your wife around?

Speaker 1 (06:36):
God? I yeah, that's a tough question because I I
know I lie, I just I just like, but I
don't what do I lie? Well, well, okay, so my
stuff would be like I go to the coffee shop
while she's working. You know, she goes to work. I
go to the coffee shop every morning, and there is

(06:59):
nine out of ten times there's business spoken with me
and my buddy Dwayne at coffee corner. But I'll admit
I am there for too long, Like this morning, I
was only there for about twenty minutes twenty five minutes,
then went over to my shop to stock the shop.
My boys are going to work it while I'm out
of town this weekend with my wife. So I absolutely
did everything I said I was going to do, and
I did get stuck at the shop trying to get

(07:22):
back on the Wi Fi trying to prep the shop
for my boys. But when I say it took me
longer than I thought, one hundred percent true, Well, is
it a white lie? Though, if she didn't ask how
long I was at each one and I didn't say,
I guess my point to this is I spend more
time at the coffee shop and not all business than
I probably lead on. And I don't know if that's

(07:43):
a white liar. I'm just leaving that info.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Out because, well, are you afraid that she's gonna judge
you for it? Or what do you think her reaction?
Is there a reaction you're trying to avoid or is
there an image you're trying to create?

Speaker 1 (07:53):
You know what, there is a reaction I'm trying to
avoid and at the same time an image I'm trying
to create. Yeah, yeah, I'm I really am. Like I
do a lot of things. I'm all over the past,
but I'm not going to lie to you and tell
you that I don't spend probably half hour forty five
minutes too long at the coffee shop just shooting the
breeze when I'm done with business, or even just hanging out.
So yeah, so yes, then you know what, Yes, I

(08:15):
would consider that a Do we call that a white
lion anymore? What do we call that?

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah? I mean, I guess I have no Yeah, I
don't even know what we call anymore, what about you?
We waitit so but what do you But the thing
is quality time with friends is a good thing.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
So yeah, you know you're making a good point, all right.
So so it is my it is my set button.
Every morning. I really look forward to it. I get
my cup of coffee. I'm supporting Dwayne and his business
doesn't cost me much at all, a cup of coffee,
and then and then I get to talk with friends
and catch up. And I do know there's other people

(08:53):
who come in that really look forward to that as well,
a couple of people and just like me. So it
is common raw, it is fellowship. It's a great atmosphere.
There is some business, for sure, But I think for me,
I've just had feelings of guilt. This is why I'm
in therapy as well. By the way, feelings of guilt
part of the reason for a lot of years about

(09:17):
overthinking and ruminating, creating stories in my mind about what
she might think if I do tell her how long
I'm really there, and she probably and to be honest,
she probably would say, God, you're there for an hour
and a half every morning. That's a long time. And
I guess, just yeah, I do not give the time. Now,

(09:37):
she asked me straight up, how long were you there?
I'd tell her I'd be very reserved. But that's kind
of me judging her without her even really having judged
me first. Think about that. I'm creating a story in
my mind, judging her how she's going to react when
I don't know. So that's actually bad on me. Double
what I'm serious, not what I'm trying to No, I

(10:01):
know you're not, but I'm trying to come clean because
I feel guilty if I don't tell you the whole truth.
I mean, right, that's what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Then we don't judge. Uh huh, yeah no, But it's
it's interesting, is your own reflections on your own like productivity, yeah,
and yeah, and when where you choose to have downtime
and and and you too that and it's good and

(10:28):
it's valuable for you. But worried that.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
I just realized you can hear me. I wanted you
to meet Kat and she came in. She's the APD.
Now here's the problem, doctor Jenn. She won't be able
to hear you. Actually she will, I'll shore right, So
that's what I'll do, doctor Jen. You were in the
middle of talking. I'm sorry. I tried to take ten seconds,
and now I feel guilty for that. That's exactly what
we're talking about. Kat. So, Kat, is I think you're
on Mike four?

Speaker 3 (11:01):
Should be right?

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yep? I just sorry, Doctor. I wanted you to meet Kat.
She's the assistant program director and someone who I absolutely love,
and she's great on the air. She works I don't
know eighteen stations, but she walked in and I just
thought it was funny that we were talking. She doesn't
even know about the podcast. So there you are. Hi.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Can you hear me? Kat?

Speaker 3 (11:23):
Go ahead, Doctor Gen hold on, Oh, I need headphones
in to hear her.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah. Shoot, she said, hello, nice to meet you, Kat.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
I just realize doctor Jen.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
So doctor Jen can obviously hear you. All right, Well,
that was the extent of Cat's tenure on this podcast.
I guess.

Speaker 4 (11:40):
I can grab headphones and come back in. But you
guys are wrapping up. It sounds like we.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Got another ten fifteen minutes. But I just thought it
was neat that you walked in. And I don't know
add Doctor Jen's laughing at me.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
So I.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Just thought two ladies can talk. They can totally discuss things.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
I can listen, but anyway, let me graw my have
thuns and I'll come they.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Are you really? Well, Hey, we got a we got
a surprise guest for the last ten fifteen minutes, doctor Jen.
She's getting her headphones.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Okay, does she know they what? Actually? Yeah, well, well
we'll get her opinion on this. We listen and we
don't judge.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
That's actually part of the reason we wanted to talk
to you. I just didn't say that. I'm like, oh
my god, this is a female. She can give another perspective,
you know, from you.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, that was weird. I'm sorry, that's okay.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
I was like, I'm talking. I was like, she can't
hear me.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Well, because I just didn't want her to go without
meeting you, that's all.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Oh no, that was awesome. Yeah. Okay, So she's left, but.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
She's coming back in Yeah, I she'd be back in
just a minute.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Okay, Okay, Well, so I'm going to plant the seed
for another topic that I wanted to bring up with you,
And I don't know if we'll have time today or not,
but I'm curious of what you think how your son's
romantic relationships and they're dating is different than when you
were their age in terms of their awareness, their skills
in their commun nication.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Doctor Jen, I am so glad you brought this up.
Do you want me to answer that now or next week?

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Oh? Good, you can get it started.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, I'll tell you straight up. I have said this
to them, you too, Gavin and Dylan. Dylan's the older one,
Gavin's the younger one, eighteen and twenty years old. I
have said this for the last two years actually, and
then let's see, Dylan's in his for I think almost
four years with Arlette. Gavin, I believe is in his
for two and a half years, possibly going on three
with his girlfriend Maya. And Kat just walked back in.

(13:28):
But Kat, okay, Kat now run so so Doctor Jen
just asked me. She's just curious about how I feel
about me back when I was dating and single and
younger compared to my sons Dylan and Gabbt, who are
eighteen and twenty.

Speaker 4 (13:41):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
So I was about to answer and.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Say around skills, awareness and communication. So you can't hear
me now.

Speaker 4 (13:50):
Yes, I've got you.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Here's what's different about Kat and me. Kat when she's
on the radio or on a podcast when someone is
just giving you the inform and they know you want
an answer out of saying me and not her, she's
smart enough to just let me answer, I'm not well.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
I think that that's the difference between men and women typically,
is that men men, men listen to respond, whereas women
listen to really just receive information and to understanding.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
On this podcast, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
It's been firm, but not to jump your what we've needed.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
Not to jump on your answer, Clint, But I think
that you know, I'm thirty six and I've been single
for a few years now, and I think that when
I was dating when I was in my early twenties
compared to dating now, and that's, you know, a good
fifteen year gap, is that there's just so many different
ways to communicate now, and there's so much more awareness now.

(14:47):
For I think that a good fifteen years ago, men
didn't understand that they need to really compete with the girlfriends,
like the actual platonic other female friends of women versus
other men. So like I, if you're competing for my
time to date with you're competing for the time with
my with my female friends. And honestly, myself and my

(15:10):
own solitude versus like vying for attention from me from
other guys. Like the way that I compare men now
is not based on other men. It's it's based on
how do my girlfriends treat me? And what's the great
connections that I'm getting with my friends? No, that's your bar, yeah,
and it's and it's a it's a high bar.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
Doctor, Jen. And we have been doing this for six years.
I've is that brilliant?

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Well, yeah, and it's really interesting. But I love that
because it's not just like, oh, I need to be
dating and Okay, which are the which is the best
man out there? I could find the date? But it's like, no,
my my life is great and I have good friendships
and I like my time alone, and I have a career,
And are you somebody that is adding to all of

(15:55):
that exactly? And are you somebody that's worth me spending
time with them prioritizing and losing time in these other
situations that are really fulfilling and meaningful. And a lot
of the.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
Times the answer is no. Why a lot of the
times these men are not adding value. I'm good, I'm
sitting right here.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Clint so Clint. Okay, you're in your mid fifties, so
when you think back to what how many years ago, I'll.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Tell you straight up, Wait, what age are you looking for?

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Years ago? You were your son's ages. Yeah, what's the
difference of their skills and awareness and communication now?

Speaker 1 (16:34):
One hundred percent. I don't think it's what Cat said
because I don't know that men. I know there was
a huge boom just now. We're like, are we getting
like attacked in this building? Cat turned around to uh,
I don't believe, And I'm going to ask him this
now now that Cat brought that up. I don't think
it's that they are aware of the girlfriend thing in
comparison to that and not other guys. They just they

(16:56):
have no jealousy. I mean it's crazy. Yes, wow, is right.
I told them both a couple of years ago when
they first got with their girlfriends. I'm like, so they're
going out with this guy or that guy and group
of guys, and you're going out with a group of
girls because my sons have a lot of girl friends.
And I'm like, and they don't care the other girls,
the girlfriends, And no, no, they don't at all. I'm like,

(17:16):
do you get jealous about them. No, I don't.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
I think though. The difference there, Clint is.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
That like social media, well a good.

Speaker 3 (17:22):
Twenty thirty years ago, you only hung out with the
opposite sex if you were interested in dating them, whereas
now it's like you can have platonic friendships with the
opposite sex and there's nothing more to it.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Hold on, I would say, you're putting a cap on that,
and maybe you shouldn't because I had probably as many,
if not more, female friends when I was a trainer
in the gym than I did male friends. Granted I
wanted to sleep with most of them, but I didn't, right, No,
I really was just friends with them.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
And but and there was jealousy attached to that if
you were dating somebody at the time.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I don't know, doctor Jen, I think I've told you
this before. To answer Kat's question, I don't know if
I was. I wasn't overtly jealous, but I was definitely. Yeah,
I'm I'm the I'm the lion, right I want to be.
I wasn't a badass, not at all. In fact, I'm
the least tough guy you know. But in my mind
it was like, and I didn't I tried not to
think this way. But if I were dating a girl

(18:18):
and I really liked her and we were exclusive, that's
my girl. So then all of a sudden another guy
comes from the gym and you know, wants to talk
to her and fight school for a minute. Uh huh,
But I don't like that they're working out together.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
That still exists, though. Are your sons dating? Do they
have girlfriends?

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah for three and four years now? Oh okay, sorry,
two and a half and four years.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
And I mean it's different though, if they're if they're
hanging out with If your sons are hanging out with
girlfriends platonically and and they probably know their girlfriends, I
would assume that everybody kind of.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
Knows at least of each other.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
They do, and that is try, you know, somebody coming
around and flirting and trying to hit on your partner
at the gym.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
She's right, doctor Jen. I have to say she's right,
she's right, or.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know one of them is hanging out with an
ex boyfriend or something like that.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Now that's funny because my younger son had a girlfriend
before his girlfriend. Now who did hang out with as
a group and each other who was sort of an ex,
but they're all good friends, so he just didn't care. Yeah,
but in a nutshell, I had some jealousy. I did,
but I very much kept it inside. You know, you're

(19:26):
supposed to bottle all your feelings up inside and not
let him loose. That's what they say is healthy for you.
Doctor Jim always tells me that. But no, I wasn't
outwardly jealous. But yes, I have to admit it jeal.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
I think. I think now, especially for men, the tides
have changed where you are allowed to be vulnerable, you're
allowed to express your emotions, You're allowed to go to therapy,
and that wasn't really a thing too long ago. So
I think that's now why relationships, if they're if they're
good relationships, they can be healthier now because men are

(19:59):
a to express how they're feeling and it's more well
received now.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Hey, I've talked to doctor Jen numerous times about my therapy.
I've talked about it on KGB. Yeah, because I don't
want anyone to feel, especially men, that you can't well
both can't go to therapy, so it's true. What is
your background, doctor Jenn? Are you kind of impressed with
how kat is so insightful. Are you just going to
say because she's.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
A woman, Well, she's a woman who's out there in
the world and experiencing it and trying to make sense
of it.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
That is No, that is what it is. And I
think that's I think when you are a smart woman
now who has options and has her own things going
for her, that's how you end up single because you don't,
so to speak, feel the need to settle down in
quotations with somebody who might not be right for you,

(20:47):
just to find somebody.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
You won't settle Yeah. Yeah, Let me ask you both
the question, doctor Jen, do you and I think you
and I've talked about this before, but now there's two
of you to talk to for just a second here,
do is it true? Am I getting this right? Men
want to feel Men want to feel needed and wanted
is good, But women do not want to feel needed, right,
You just want to feel wanted? Am I right? Am
I getting that right?

Speaker 2 (21:11):
I don't know about quite a distinction like that, but
I think, yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
There is there is a saying that's experts use, and
I want to say it is really that it is.
I think women want to feel wanted, not needed by
a man.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
And by the way, we are talking about heterosexual relationships here.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Just in terms of if you're there, I mean, for
this has been around for a long time. But traditional
gender role socialization, if a man needs a woman, it's
because she's supposed to like do everything for him and
cook meals, to take care of a house and like
run their their lifestyle and yeah, and women are like,
that's not my job.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
That's a turn off.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Really it is, so I think that would be the distinction.
And then though, and I think this is this, you know,
this is a cast point in dating now too. I
think sometimes men are like, wait, what is my role
here exactly? And the women's like, yes, what exactly is
your role? What are you contributing and adding here to

(22:14):
add more to my life? Because I don't, I don't
need you, but I would I want somebody who could,
you know, make my life even fuller. So, but it's
not a needing thing. So yeah, I do think I
have to think on that a little bit more. But
I think that's interesting some generational shifts.

Speaker 4 (22:33):
Around that, doctor Jen, You're right.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
I think that now that women are able to do
everything on their own, and we are, we do have
less of an actual need for men, like I don't
need you to pay my bills.

Speaker 4 (22:46):
I would like you to.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
I'm starting, but and I think it's a hard line
to navigate as a single woman because you know, if
you're a single woman, you have to do everything for
yourself otherwise you're not going to be successful in your
lif life, your career, whatever that may be. But in
my experience, men do want to feel that need, and

(23:07):
so as an independent woman, you kind of have to
like release the reins a little bit to give them
the illusion that they are needed in your life.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Oh my god, somebody.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
And it's hard.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
It's hard to give up that power when you when
you have had to have that over yourself for so long.
It's hard to give the trust in a man before,
like really fully trusting him to be like, Okay, yeah,
I'm going to let you do these things for me
under the guys that I need you to well, and I.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Do, I mean, because that isn't And I think part
of what you're saying there, Cat is that it is.
It's very vulnerable because to give up control and to
allow our hearts to be open enough and our lives
open enough to let somebody come in and play a
really important role, and that we are depending on them.
That's still not the same thing as meeting them. But

(24:02):
you know, you know, I think the healthiest relationships are
not dependent or independent, but they're interdependent or not codependent,
but that they're interdependent, and that we learn how to
blend our strengths and weaknesses and support each other in
a way being very vulnerable and authentic and celebrating the
good times and working through the tough times and then

(24:23):
you know, weaving together this this relationship as the whole
is more than the sum of the parts. And I
think that's the healthiest That that requires a lot of
vulnerability to allow someone in like that, and it takes
time to find somebody and trial and error to find
somebody who is the right fit for that.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
You know what right back at you say coming from guys,
go listen. So Kat, doctor Jen is a sociologist. She
actually counsels couples in the world of intimacy, and she
does so much more than that. But I wanted you
to know that, you know, this is where she speaks
all over the world.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Wow, And you guys have been doing this podcast fors
more than six years and this is the second and
last one.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
Is that what you said is why?

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, Well, now I'm kind of bunn because now I'm
thinking if you two were on it together, I just
shut up and press record. No, I really, I'll tell
you right now. This is valuable. And Kat, thank you
for taking the time to do this, and doctor Jen,
thank you for being willing to. I agree. It's totally fun.
And that's why when I saw Kat for a seconds,
oh my god. Another perspective from not just anybody, someone

(25:26):
who's in radio and not afraid to be on a microphone.
You know, it makes a difference, right, you'll talk just
the way you will on and off the mic. That's
what That's what you know.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
But I think also, you know, everybody has a different
experience in relationship, whether they're single or dating or married.
It's it's hard to navigate through the different the different times,
and like you know, everything is changing all of the time,
and there's more expected of men and of women and
of what we can do for each other and how

(25:55):
we can help each other out. So yeah, it's it's
interesting to navigate and to get different people's perspect.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Doctor Jen, I have do you guys have another five
to ten minutes, or am I screwing both of you?
What's going on? I'm ye, yeah, you're both good. Okay,
I can I can get all my stuff done here
in about ten to fifteen minutes. But because you're both here,
I have to ask this question. And doctor Jen, had
I thought of this before, I would have asked you
probably a year ago. I sometimes feel like the avenue

(26:22):
that we go as a society and the way we
are with the media and all the information that we
receive today, that it's not okay for men, or it's
perceived as such, that it's not okay for men to
have some masculinity in them. That is kind of how
I feel now. I'm not one of those.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Masculinity means too.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Masculinity means if you get a little bit angry and
you want to say, look, I'm putting a foot down here,
this is what I'm gonna do. I'm sorry you don't
like it, this is what I'm gonna do. Or a
guy who wants to protect his wife or open the
door and there's some chivalry involved. I feel like that's
kind of vilified these days. I think masculinity is much
more than that. But wanting to protect your family, although

(27:04):
women are completely capable, and trust me, I already know.
I'll say it. I've seven hundred times. Women run this world.
That's how it is. My wife runs my household, that
is how it goes. But having said that, isn't it
kind of a turn on to you guys? Or don't
you think it's okay if a man sort of runs
the household once in a while or no?

Speaker 3 (27:23):
Well, I think you're describing a couple of different things, Clint.
I think you're describing masculinity when you're talking about like
opening doors and you.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Know, kind of chivalry. I get it, gen Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
Then toxic masculinity, which I think is where people don't
want that anymore, where it's like.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Right, but but if someone doesn't want it, but you
do it because it's it's how you were raised. Open
the door for a woman.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
Well, no, that's that's chivalrous. Yes, for sure, I love that.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
But when you when you referenced saying I don't I
don't care how you feel about it. I'm putting my
foot down. This is how things are going to be
because I'm the man. I think that's toxic masculinity.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
And all the time. Guys, I'm told to doctor Jen
and Cat, I'm talking about if you are adamant and
you and you because here is something I read. This
is why I asked this question. I read that as
a man, and I'll get the book. The book was
the Way of the Superior Man. And I'm not going
to lie to you, guys. My therapist refer me to

(28:16):
no one. Listen, listen. It is okay, it's a weird book.
I'm not gonna lie. And there are some things in
there that I think the guy sounds like he's from
outer space, so don't get me wrong. It was not
my favorite book. But something I did take out of
this is your your wife, your partner will respect you
more instead of being like, well I wanted to do this,
but yeah, okay, every time you go this is what

(28:39):
I meant by putting your foot down. I'm doing this
right or wrong. I believe I'm right. And then what
I read was even if you're wrong, not all the time,
but wrong, she will respect you more for making a
decision and actually sticking with it.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
I'm like a decisive guy for sure, but it has
to be fact based, like give me a reason that
you feel that way, and if it does come out
that you're wrong, be okay with admitting that after the fact.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
You know, it's all about the communication of it, right.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
And I think because I feel like what you're and
the thing is that book is very outdated. Also, I
told you, yeah, I know. I think I feel like
what you're you're you're conflating masculinity with just what we
want for anybody in a healthy relationship to be confident,

(29:28):
to be decisive when it's right, to communicate clearly, but
also consult with their partner. Right, There is a time
sometimes that one person needs to make a decision, but
that shouldn't always be the man doing it or the
woman doing it. I feel like you're conflating a bunch
of otherwise, what are positive traits, but it shouldn't be
always one person making the decisions, or one person in charge,

(29:51):
or one person putting their foot down. That's where you
get into problematic of like the toxic masculinity, like hat
was saying, which is being overbearing, which is being reactive,
which is being saying that you're being factual but actually
being run by anger or fear of shame or avoidance
of actually being responsible with your emotions. That's all the

(30:12):
problematic aspect, and anything that comes down into like a
black or white sort of roles in that way and
which is a large part of the way of the
superior man. I think that's problematic and particularly problematic in
today's society. So I think I think finding out what
matters most to you of what do you think you

(30:34):
most positively bring to your marriage, to your wife, to
your children, to your job and your world that you
uniquely have you think as a man that matters most
to you, and what are your best traits in that
that I think is the most important thing to focus on.

(30:54):
What it sounds like is that you just want an
excuse to like be confident. How about just be confident
then you don't need somebody to tell you have a
right to do it because because of masculinity, like step
up and be more decisive and confident at times.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yea, it is possible. I confuse the term now that
you two are setting me.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
Straight, she said, step up and be more confident.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
I'll be more confident.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
You're wrong.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
From David Dad though, Okay, listen, I want to say
this again for the record, that was a very weird book.
If you're if you're just getting involved in this podcast
in the last two episodes, I promise you I'm already aware.
It was bizarre and I don't even know if I
can recommend. I even told my therapist that because that's
who recommended it to me. She said just try it,

(31:43):
and she goes, I have to, in full transparency, tell
you I've not read it, but it's been recommended to
me by several other therapists.

Speaker 4 (31:48):
I think that I own that book and haven't read it.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
After I was listening to an interview that Nipsey Hustled
did before he was she was killed, and that was
a book that he had recommended in this interview, and
so I bought it have already yet I don't think
you'll like it.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
What do you think, doctor, I think no.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
I don't think you will either. However, I will say
there's one thing in it. If you were if you're
with a partner that you trust a lot, and you
were looking to bring some new energy to your sexual play,
I think you could get some ideas from this book
because it's talking about more sort of innate masculinity, innate

(32:26):
and femininity and the innerplay of those dynamics with each other,
and there is something in that that can be quite hot,
because you're kind of playing consensually doing like power play
with each other, like energetic power play, and that I
think can be absolutely helpful with folks who are already

(32:46):
in respectful, communicative, healthy relationships to play with some of
the dynamics in the book. But overall, I would not
take it as a.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Bible marriage, right all right, Well, yeah, so to answer
the question really quickly, they are much more mature my boys.
Getting back to how they are in their relationships, I
don't see an ounce of jealousy. They communicate. My older son, Yes,
my older son said to his girlfriend, who were there
doing very well. Now, there was a time he was

(33:18):
in New York. He came back. She wasn't sure and
about the relationship, and then she was getting a little
bit upset about seeing him talk to all the other
girls in their acting classes in the school up in
la And so he took her aside one day says, look,
you're confusing me, he said, we are together or we
are not. He goes, I'm not trying to make you jealous.
These are my friends. They were my friends before, and

(33:39):
they're my friends, now what do you want? And they've
been back together ever since, and that is mature me.
I'd have been like, oh no, I think Kat has
to go.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
Cat I do.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
Thank you so much, doctor Jen. You're amazing and I'm sorry.
It was just the first time that we've spoken.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
I know, I don't want you to ever talking again.
Thanks Kat, Hey, thanks for doing that. She's walking out
of the studio. She's got like a million things to do,
Doctor Jen Hay, And seriously, thank you for allowing me
to invite her in because I realized that I neither
one of us had any prep with that. But I
got to tell you, listening to YouTube talk, I enjoyed that.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Oh interesting, cool, Yeah, I hope you did. Yeah, no,
it's interesting. It's it's yeah because especially because we're both
you know, Jen exers in our fifties here, so I mean,
which is our you know, audience that we were more
appealing to. So, but yeah, to get a younger perspective
and somebody who's single.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, I actually didn't know she was thirty five. To me,
she looks like she's twenty five. I didn't know. Oh wow, yeah,
but you what you don't see on the microphone. Is
that when she said she's thirty five, that's the first
time i'd heard her age.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
I was like, whoa, so, yeah, well, I did not
expect you to lead to a way of the superior man.
No like that. I was like, oh, I've got a
lot of opinions on that book.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, so I I should have known better. You probably
know all that stuff. So she's recommending these different books
to me, and that one to me. I even told her,
I said, look, I don't know that I can recommend
this to anybody. I said, it is weird. In fact,
my best friend James since fifth grade, he knew about
the book. He says, Dude, I got a few chapters
in I put it down. He goes, I thought it
was garbage, And I will tell you there was. I

(35:19):
forced myself to read it because I made a commitment
to read it. I told her I would. So I
did kind of like your book, right, I told you
I'd read it now yours. I took a lot of
good stuff out of.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
It, and you also took a year and a half well,
And I.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
Told her that we talked about you. I said, you know,
I took a year and a half or longer and
she goes, well, don't do that with you, And I go,
what do you mean? She goes with yourself, she goes,
don't do that, and so we you know, so I
think I'm on my third book with her now in
I don't know here, but yeah, but your book gave
a lot of good information. This other one way of

(35:53):
the speary man, it was okay.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I mean, it's a man who's clearly got some issues also,
and it's old fashioned, but I do want to say, like,
I feel like when I was listening to you talk
about it, what I think might be most valuable for
you to get out of it is like, what do
you need to give yourself permission for? Because it sounds
like there's something well yeah, but in your marriage specifically.

(36:18):
And so what I feel like is that this book
was giving you like no right, I have a right
to do this. This is my role, and but like,
don't do it in that way because that's not healthy.
But can you do it in a way that is
healthy for you? Or can you start standing up? And
you could be like, I'm not trying to be a
dick here, You're like, did these things really matter to me?
And like I got to put my foot down around
something like that's okay, that's absolutely okay if you put

(36:41):
up boundaries, if you've talked about things that modern to
you and your partner, your spouse isn't respecting that or
taking it seriously. Yes, it is absolutely okay to talk
and be like, hey, this isn't working for me, this
is the problem, Like something needs to change here. But
that's not the same as toxic maculine.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
It's not even the.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Same as masculinity of healthy masculine. That's just being healthy
in a relationship and standing and stepping up for yourself.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, and I mean I agree with you. It's and
again it's all in this whole uh, you know, story
building and ruminating and that's something I'm working on, you know. Yeah,
thinking for other people, including my wife, you know. Like
the motorcycle, you know that we're probably gonna talk about

(37:28):
that next week. But I did get a twenty twenty
two Harley Davidson Pan America. I did not have to
sell my two thousand road King Classic, thank god, because
I wouldn't have I wouldn't have done that to get
the other bike. But so I got a new bike.
And there's a story behind how I got It's it's
kind of funny, but also the guilt associated with getting
the bike to your point. So it's everything. Man. It's

(37:51):
like when I go on a trip, if it's you know,
if it's with my wife, I feel guilty about the money.
If I go without her and I go with a
buddy and I'm going to or just next year, I'm
gonna feel guilty for going without or even though she
doesn't want to go, the money I'm spending there, or
the time away or it's it. It's constant. That's something
I'm working on.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
So yeah, maybe because it's a shame if we're choosing,
we made a choice to spend money or spend time,
and because it matters to us and it's good time.
It's like, I don't know. It reminds me of like,
you know what, I'm gonna have this piece of chocolate
cake and then you feel guilty the whole time.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
And that's me why. Yep, I agree.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
If you're going to choose to do something, fully throw
yourself into it and enjoy the shit out.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Of it, I agree, and and and I do have
to remember that, but I have to remind myself. I
do constantly. So yeah, anyway, well you had something else
you were going to talk about. But now we're like
almost forty minutes and this good, and I got show
prep I gotta do before three pm for KGB.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
But I hit the topics I wanted to talk about.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Oh you did okay, well, so I do want to
share with you next week. I did get a motorcycle
and it's kind of a funny story how it happened,
and uh and all that.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Okay, all right, next week motorcycle And then what do
we want to do for our last I had suggested
before I thought it would be really interesting if we
both separately went back and listened to the first episode.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Absolutely, and so but what you have to remember to
do that? So I need to put that in my
I need to write that in my notes, hey, so
that we remember to listen.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
I do want to do that. And I also want
to talk about maybe one or two of the things
that we think were the biggest impact on doing this
podcast with each other, what we've learned. Maybe yeah, because
I already.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
Two without listening, like single thing I don't want. I
don't want the generic. I want like concrete details, concrete.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Well, I mean I minor more the platitudes I want,
like the real shit. Well, I mean it's one of
them has to do with relationships stuff with me and
my wife that you helped out, so I'll that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yah.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
All right, Well we'll both think on it by impact,
so we'll do that real.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Quick before we go. What was the I always get
it wrong, not listening with intent, listening.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
With what generous listening?

Speaker 1 (40:14):
That's it. I always forget. But I know that what
you mean by it and I use that. But it's
just so it's generous listening. Okay, thank you?

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Absolutely, Yeah, I get I talk on that topic a
lot now on podcasts and every retreat that I read.
I just did another one two days ago up near
Santa Barbara, and that concept in my way of explaining
and walking through the four steps generous listening like it's
really really syncing in with people in an impactful way,
which is super cool.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Hey, that's I'm gonna spoiler alert. We're going to get
into this next week because that is one of the
top two things of everything we've discussed that I appreciate
from you. It is helped tremendously, not just with my wife,
with everyone awesome.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Oh cool, look forward to that. So all right, this
is number two fifty four so until next week.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Clint, yes, ma'am, have a good week

Speaker 2 (41:07):
You too, so

Sex Talk with Clint & The Doc News

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