Catherine Joy White

Original Air Date: June 23,2024

Catherine Joy White is the author of “This Thread Of Gold, A Celebration Of Black Womanhood”, telling hidden figures stories about, among others,  Nancy Green (the model who was on all the Aunt Jemima” products; Hattie McDaniel (the 1st African-American EVER to win an Oscar for “Gone With The Winds) and the late New York Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Sunstein Sessions on iHeartRadio,conversations about issues that matter. Here's your
host, three time Grasie Award winner, Shelley Sunstein. We just celebrated the
third official Juneteenth, commemorating the endof slavery. By the third official,
I mean it was officially a nationalholiday. And joining me this morning Catherine

(00:24):
Joy White. She is the authorof this Thread of Gold, which is
a celebration of black womanhood. Sofirst of all, congratulations, and tell
me what your activities and what youwere doing for Juneteenth. Thank you,
Shelly. Yeah, So I obviouslyI'm British, so this is my first

(00:45):
real experience of Juneteenth what it means. But I'm staying near Prospect Park in
Brooklyn, so that's a historically blackneighborhood, and so I just I've made
some new friends already since I've beenout here. So we had this like
long lunch in the park which wasgorgeous, and you just saw families,
everyone there celebrating together. Then unfortunatelythe evening I had a deadline, so
I couldn't do any partying. Ihad to come home. But I really

(01:07):
got this sense of just the joyand the celebration and the kind of overwhelming
community of coming together. I reallygot that sense. It was amazing.
So tell me about the title,this thread of Gold. Where did the
title come from. So there's thisamazing woman. Her name's Kiara Vgo.
She's Sardinian in southern Italy, andshe is the last remaining woman on earth

(01:30):
who kind of practices the art ofsea silk. So she dives down to
the sea and she collects bissus,which she then takes up and weaves,
and that is something that she passeson and teaches to her daughters nieces.
But it's very interesting because it isan art form that is not allowed to
be sold, so she can't sellthe sea silk. It's a craft and

(01:53):
it's something that's passed through generations towomankind. So my friend Kitty McFarlane wrote
this amazing song called See. Sothat's how I got to hear about Caravigo
and then became, you know,madly obsessed with her. But I just
thought there was something so fascinating aboutthis weaving of gold that women do and
the passing down and that kind ofled me to imagine this sort of tapestry

(02:16):
that we are all part of creatingand weaving and adding to that you know
is limitless and means that I kindof look to those who've woven before me,
and I also look to what Iwill pass on to those who will
come after after me. Your bookis written in such an interesting way.
We're talking to Catherine Enjoy White,author of This Thread of Gold, the

(02:38):
Celebration of Black Womanhood, because you'retelling your own story and it's interspersed really
with stories of Black women through history. So you're also revealing a lot about
yourself and your own you know,feelings of inadequacy or you know, and
your stressors and coming of age.Was there difficult? What was the most

(03:04):
difficult thing to reveal about yourself?Yeah, it was really difficult, and
actually it might be surprising for thosewho've read the book, But I didn't
intend to write it in that way. Like this started as a book where
I wanted to kind of bring womenout of obscurity. Some of them were
well known, some of them won, and I was looking at how their
lives spoke to each other. Butit felt like something was missing, and

(03:25):
I kept asking myself, you know, what is this piece that isn't quite
landing, it isn't quite making senseto me, and eventually I realized,
well, actually, it's what dothey mean to me? Why am I
writing this book right now? SoI had to grapple with this really hard
decision of was I prepared to putpersonal pieces of my life into a book

(03:46):
that will be out there in thepublic domain forever? And that was really
difficult, But you know, Ikind of went back and forth and realized
that this is the only way toreally make this book feel honest and speak
to people and enable people to underand why a woman that lived a hundred
years ago is still relevant to ustoday because I can directly speak about how
the words of Audrey Lord helped mein the aftermath of a physically abusive relationship,

(04:12):
for example, In terms of what'sthe hardest thing to reveal, it
was definitely that that was something thatI mean, I don't go into any
detail, but I have never spokenabout that before, and it really felt
as though it became important to meto be able to speak about it because
I'm writing about it in the contextof opening up and of sharing and of

(04:34):
not having to be the strong one. So yeah, I also feel now
that there was a real coming ofage for myself in the process of writing
this and of healing. So let'stalk about some of the women you write
about in the book. There isNancy Green. Now people are listening and
they're saying, who, Well,Nancy Green was the face of a tremima

(04:59):
and to my aight, So youtell the story that you uncovered and how
it took so long to get ridof this stereotype of Anchemima and how warning
that is that image. Yeah,it's astonishing. Auntjemimah at one point was
probably one of the most famous womenin America, whether or not you realized

(05:23):
it. She was on top ofyour breakfast cereal boxes, your pancake boxes,
and she emerged at the end ofthe At the end, as slavery
was abolished, the mammy figure whohad been caring for white families was also
viewed as this stereotype. It waskind of generally accepted that that wasn't a
figure that should be propagated anymore.So out of that emerged this figure of
Aunt Jemima, who wasn't a slave, she wasn't an enslaved person. She

(05:46):
worked, but she kind of wasessentially a continuation of the Antwemeima figure.
She had this sort of smile,and she worked selflessly and sort of any
reward that came her way, andput the children that she was caring for
above her her own family herself.She was asexual. She was essentially the
Mammy, and that figure stayed forover one hundred years. It wasn't until

(06:10):
twenty twenty that Quaker It's finally,after much public lobbying, kind of recognize,
okay, but it was a GeorgeFloyd was thet It was the aftermath
of George Floyd, which to mekind of changed everything. There were so
many companies, but continue, Catherine, yes it did, but it still
kind of begs the question, whydid it take that for this mass recognition
of the fact that we probably don'tneed to see a black woman with a

(06:32):
head scarf as the symbol of servingbreakfast anymore, you know. But there's
a whole other fascinating element of this, which is that the Aarnjeimer figure that
we saw was based on a realwoman. Her name was Nancy Green.
She was the first black corporate modelin the US, and she was also
a kind of incredible activist in herown right and founder of one of the

(06:55):
oldest churches in Chicago. You know, she was an amazing woman, but
nobody knew who she was, andshe didn't get any acknowledgement. And when
she died, she remained in anunmarked grave for years until another woman,
Scherry Tucker, kind of decided totake it upon herself to go and find
where Nancy Green was laid to rest, try and lobby Quaker Wrotes to give

(07:18):
her a gravestone or give her somesort of just an acknowledgment that they had
profited from her for all of theseyears. And they said that, you
know, slavery and Aunt Jemimah arenot the same thing. And you know,
it didn't end up happening. ButI just got also so moved by
this woman, Cherry Tucker's mission touncover Nancy Green, and I just hope

(07:39):
now people will go and look alittle bit more into her, her life
and what she represented. All Right, I am speaking with Catherine Joy White
if you just joined us, andshe is the author of this Thread of
Gold, a Celebration of Black Womanhood. Let's talk about the Haddie McDaniel,
the first African American ever to win, and ask her that was in nineteen

(08:03):
forty were Gone with the Wind,playing a very stereotyped role, but she
herself was the daughter of slaves.Tell us about her and how conflicted all
of this became in the black communitythe movie, and even though she had
a prominent role obviously in Gone withthe Win, it was controversial. Yes,

(08:28):
exactly. I think Hastie McDaniel is. She was one of the biggest
surprises for me in writing the book. She is such an incredible representation of
how to just stay steadfast and keepdoing what you're doing despite being faced with
criticism on both sides. So yes, you're right. She was born to
enslaved parents, youngest of fourteen childrenin Kansas, and you know, from

(08:48):
a young age had this love forperforming. She actually found she was a
producer when she was young, shesaid, with the McDaniel sister's company with
her sisters, and went on tolive this life of a life that you
would expect of, Yes, oppression, but also doing what she loved and
working her way up in rolls,tiny parts, extras and then eventually having
named roles. She actually had overthree hundred rolls, but was credited for

(09:11):
only eighty three of them, soeven though she had this illustrious career,
she wasn't particularly recognized all the time. And then eventually this gone with the
wind. You know, this incrediblywell known, respected novel is going to
be made into a movie, andthe public like buzz is such that Eleanor
Roosevelt actually wanted to put her ownmade forward for the role of Mammy.

(09:35):
So it was a really coveted rolein many ways. But we're also in
the kind of midst of segregation,and you know, the black community were
viewing this as a perpetuation of racialstereotypes. The novel has its flaws.
The KKK are kind of romanticized,and the black characters are, you know,
seen as stupid, and Hassie McDanielwas then faced with this intense criticis

(10:00):
from the black community that she's arace traitor, letting her race down.
Meanwhile the white on the white sidepeople kind of see her as the living
embodiment of the role that she's playing. But she knew what she was doing
and she went on to play thisrole which changed how she was seen,
not just in Hollywood, I thinknow in the world. She won an

(10:22):
Academy Award for that role. Thefirst black person ever. A lot of
people think it was Sidney Quietier,but it was and it was Hattie McDaniel.
And of course, the kind ofcomplexities being such that they were,
she wasn't even allowed to attend thepremiere, and then she wasn't going to
be allowed to attend the Oscars.The producer fought to let her in,
which meant that she was allowed inand she sat in a table at the

(10:43):
back on her own. But there'sthis speech when she goes up to collect
her award where she just says,I hope I will always be a credit
to my race and to the motionpicture industry. And I think it is
I cry when I watch it still. I think it is so moving,
and it is just this display ofwe can't get it right all the time,
but I am trying to uplift myrace, and I'm trying to do

(11:05):
work that is faithful to my craftas an actor. And I just think
she deserves more grace, and shedeserves us to give her a second chance.
And look at what she did inthe context of the circumstances she was
in at the time. You alsospeak of a beloved local figure that would
be Shirley Chisholm, who was thefirst black woman elected to Congress and she

(11:31):
represented bed STI and she was thefirst African American woman to run for president
in a major party, and thatwas in nineteen seventy two, a very
interesting time in our history. Sotell us what surprised you in your what
you found out about Congresswoman Shurly Chisholm. I think I was really pleasantly surprised

(11:56):
by the fact that she, andlots of these women did, always had
this sort of sense of purpose,right, she sort of had this fierce
sense of justice, and she youknow, as a child, even she
spoke about how her grandmother kind ofhugely influenced her. But then as an
adults, as a political figure,that translated into her seeing that she didn't
like something, she couldn't necessarily waitfor it to be changed for her.

(12:20):
She was going to have to goand do herself. And you know,
it's that very famous quo, ifyou don't thetn't give you a seat at
the table, you bring a foldingchair. And I take from her this
sense of just do it, don'twait to be invited in their phrase again,
because I think it went by veryquickly. If you don't have a
seat at the table, bring afolding chair exactly. I love that it's

(12:41):
so good. It's so good,and I think helpful to all women actually
who have to kind of elbow ourway in at times. Oh, well,
you know that we're making history inthe process of doing that. We
only have two minutes left. Onehave we not talked about, enjoy White,
Arthur, of this thread of goldthat you would like to unveil to

(13:05):
our audience. Well, it's interestingbecause I've spoken about some of the kind
of historical figures and the personal stuff, but I also wanted to play a
little with how I wrote the book. So the very last chapter Daughter is
where I write a letter to myimaginary daughter that I hope i'll have one
day, and it's kind of poetica bit, and it's really just detailing
what I dream and wish for her. And I'm excited because I'm now making

(13:28):
that into an animated film as well, which it stars Google and Betha Roy
as incredible actress. And I thinkthat for me is I think what I
love about this book and what I'mreally receiving from people as they've read it
is just this sense of expansiveness andpossibility. Even in the form of the
book, we could put these womenalongside my life, alongside a dream,

(13:50):
a dream for all women and allgirls, and the life that they will
live. So I think that's it. It's just a message of hope to
every single well person, not justwomen. But I hope to keep on
working for a future that feels brighter, that feels more golden. If I
may, before we go, justvery briefly, did you speak with Megan

(14:13):
Morocle, because I know you wroteabout her. Yeah, I wrote,
I didn't speak with her. Iwould love to. If anyone listening can
put me in touch, please do. I would absolutely love to, because
I think again she's the bigger He'sbeen kind of so misunderstood and misaligned,
and it is just doing what she'sdoing. You know, she knows what
she wants to achieve and I respectthat. Congratulations Catherine and Joy White.

(14:35):
This Thread of Gold a celebration ofBlack womanhood. You've been listening to Sunstein
sessions on iHeartRadio. The production ofNew York's classic rock Q one O four point three