August 4, 2024 • 15 mins
Original Air Date: August 4, 2024
Daniela Volker directed the incredible HBO doc “The Commandant’s Shadow”, the real-life story that was depicted in the Oscar winning “The Zone Of Interest”, which is what the Nazis called Auschwitz. Amazing, at the end, the son and grandson of Auschwitz creator and Commandant Rudolph Hess meet with an Auschwitz survivor.
Daniela Volker directed the incredible HBO doc “The Commandant’s Shadow”, the real-life story that was depicted in the Oscar winning “The Zone Of Interest”, which is what the Nazis called Auschwitz. Amazing, at the end, the son and grandson of Auschwitz creator and Commandant Rudolph Hess meet with an Auschwitz survivor.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Sunstein Sessions on iHeartRadio, Conversations about issues that matter.
Here's your host, three time Grasie Award winner, Shelley Sunstein.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
One of the big Oscar winners in the last Oscars
was the Zone of Interest, which was the Nazi term
used for Auschwitz, and Auschwitz was built by Rudolph hess
and his family lived right across from Auschwitz, right across
(00:36):
from the gates of Auschwitz, living an idyllic life, and
it was an astounding movie. But even more astounding to
me is a documentary that you can now see on
HBO and Max. It's called The Commandant Shadow, and it's
the real life story of the son of Rudolph Hes
(01:00):
Yes and his son and what it was like for
him growing up in those years right by Auschwitz. And
then the most amazing meeting that both of them had
with a survivor of Auschwitz, a woman who was a
(01:22):
celloist in the band that played at Auschwitz, which saved
her life. Now imagine this a face to face meeting.
And the woman who put this all together is with
me this morning, Daniella Volker. First of all, welcome. Second
of all, congratulations. You should be up for Awards this year.
(01:45):
I mean, that was just an astounding documentary and left
me with so many questions. But first to you, how
did this all come about? This? I have to believe
this started before we even heard of the movie The
Zone of Interest.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Hi, good morning. Yes, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
So the film actually started in a very unusual way.
In the first week of lockdown, the COVID Lockdown in
twenty twenty, a friend of mine who knew Maya Luska Valfish,
the daughter of a Holocaust survivor, Anita Luskavalfish, contacted me
and she told me Maya was interested in talking about
(02:27):
her experience of transgenerational trauma as the daughter of someone
who'd survived Auschwitz and Bong Bozen and I had a
chat with her. I mean, I didn't think there was
a whole film in there, but there was something interesting. So,
because it was the lockdown and I had a bit
(02:48):
of time, I started doing research and I came across
a really extraordinary document on the Internet, which is the
autobiography of the camp commandant Rudolph Heirs, who was the
man who imagined and built and ran Auschwitz for quite
a lot of its existence. And I then found that
(03:08):
Rudolph Hearst had not written not only just written everything down,
he also had a descendant, a man who was roughly
Maya's age, same generation, and who, once I contacted him,
told me a very similar story of in a way,
living under the shadow of you know, terrible events, which
(03:28):
in this case he saw from the perpetrator side, you know,
not the survivor side. And it took me about a year,
but eventually I was introduced to his father, Hans Jogan,
who had grown up in the villa, which, as he
very well.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Described, is literally in Auschwitz.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
It's right by the gate the SS used to use,
and from his bedroom window Hans Yogan could see the
first crematorium that was in use. He could see the chimney. So,
you know, the kind of structure of the film gradually evolved.
I thought it should be the parallel stories of a
survivor and a perpetrator family. And I should say that
(04:10):
what is so extraordinary about Rudolph Hess's autobiography is not
just how candid he is about everything he did, but
also that he was unique, almost I would say, in
being both a prime witness and a perpetrator. You know
that that was something kind of in a way, very
appealing from a narrative spine point of view, because he
(04:34):
really had access all areas, you know, and they were
all you know. He he talks us through how he
came up with a concept for Auschwitz, which he calls
the greatest human extermination facility of all time.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
There were so many interesting things about this. First of all,
the sun kind of had to be blocking out out
what he saw as a child, because one of the
things he said he did not see was the human
ash falling, which he and his sister had to have seen, right,
(05:12):
but he had no memory of that at all.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yes, it's very interesting because I actually did ask the
educators at Auschwitz to look into it. And in the time,
so the crematorium that faced their house, it was about
two hundred and ninety yards away.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Would have been in use for over a year year.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
And a half and at least seventy eight thousand people
were guessed and cremated there, plus everyone who was executed.
So his family didn't take long holidays. Indeed, they didn't
take any holidays. I mean they may go on day trips,
but they always slept in the villa.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
So actually.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
There is you know, there is written, recorded evidence that
people died, and there's also I'm so sorry about all
these noises. There's recorded evidence of you know, deaths in
this place. But there's also the statements of the men's
Orchestra ad Auschwitz one which used to play literally in
(06:17):
front of the Heart's House, and they said sometimes the
smoke was so dense that they couldn't read the notes.
So I have come to the conclusion, as has his son,
that Hans Jogen deeply suppressed what happened. The fact that
he can't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen, but
(06:38):
he really cannot remember it.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I'm speaking with Daniella Volkerti is the director of The
Commandant Shadow. It's a documentary which you can see on
Max and HBO, and it's actually the real story of
the movie that we saw when Best Foreign Picture at
the oscars the Zone of Interest. It involves the sun
(07:06):
and daughter of Rudolph Hess how they lived an idyllic
life right by the gates of Auschwitz, in this beautiful
home with this gorgeous garden, and how they didn't have
a clue what was going on right across from them.
And in one of the most remarkable scenes. At the
(07:26):
end of the movie, the son of Rudolph Hess and
the grandson have a meeting at the home of an
Auschwitz survivor, and she is just an amazing woman. Tell
us Daniella your impressions of her, because I just could
not believe her strength and her grace.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yes, Anita, ask about Fish. Is really an extraordinary woman.
She turned ninety nine last week. She smokes quite a
few cigarettes a day, and she is someone who survived
two concentration camps, came to Britain, forged her life as
a cellist in the English Chamber Orchestra, which she co founded,
(08:13):
and basically spent fifty years. So from nineteen forty five
until nineteen ninety five, really she just looked ahead. And
you know, when she first arrived in Britain, people weren't
interested in hearing about Auschwitz, so she never talked about it,
and it became a habit, I think, so she didn't
(08:35):
talk about it publicly, nor to her own family, and
I think it was with the fiftieth anniversary kind of
commemorations that she was approached and then wrote a book
about her experiences, and that's when she in her seventies.
At that point launched a new career as a Holocaust educator,
(08:57):
going round talking to school children and giving TV interviews.
And you know, she is the most extraordinary woman because
for this film, I mean, it was a difficult task,
you know. I initially Maya, her daughter, asked would she
accompanied her to Auschwitz to meet the son of the commandant,
(09:18):
and she said in the film, no, my Auschwitz is
not your Auschwitz. I want it left alone. But she
agrees to what she invites them into her home. And
that was really an extraordinary moment which I haven't seen
before in a film where the children, the child of
a major perpetrator goes into the private sphere of a
(09:41):
survivor surrounded by photos of her dead parents killed by
the Nazis, and they have a meaningful conversation. So I
think it was really an extraordinary moment. And I should
add mister Hurst, the son of the commandant, was very
nervous because he hadn't actually ever met a Jewish survivor.
(10:02):
It was the first time, and he wasn't quite sure
what to expect and how he would be welcomed. And
Anita was so gracious and so generous as well. You know,
she said to him, you didn't choose your father, and
neither did I choose mine. You know, we were both
put in this situation, and she sort of emphasized that
(10:24):
it's important to look at the future.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
You get the feeling watching them being in the same
room that if they could have a conversation as difficult
as that in this very fractured world of ours, why
can this not happen in other circumstances? Right, That's how
that was my take from this. I mean, it doesn't
get more difficult than that.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
It was, Yes, you're right, it was very interesting. We
were in Israel. Our film won an award at the
Doka Viv Festival for Documentaries, and afterwards the wife of
a Rabba I came to talk to us, and the
next day in fact, and she said, my husband and
I talked about this film deep into the night, and
(11:09):
we realized that we never ever have spoken to a Palestinian.
We don't know our Arab neighbors. So then she she
had actually come to tell us that she and her
husband had decided to contact a charity to make appointments
for them to meet local Palestinians in Jerusalem, where they lived.
(11:29):
And that was really touching and unexpected and in a way,
I just thought that that is exactly the message Anita
wanted to convey, you know, talk to each other, know
the other in inverted commas, you know, and Anita always says,
you can then decide you don't like them, but you know,
just make an effort.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Have they stayed in touch? Do you know?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (11:54):
So, Hans Jogan, the son of the commandant, has been
in hospital, in and out of hospital, and he, you know,
hasn't really been able to travel.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
But Kai has met up with Mayo a few times.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
And actually Hans Jogan and Kai also met Maya and
Berlin at our premium because he had just come out
of hospital and he hadn't seen the film and you know,
if you imagine you're in your late eighties, you've been
filmed for four years. He had absolutely no idea what
to expect. So it was really important to us that
(12:29):
he could make it to a cinema premiere and watch
the film on a big screen. And Maya was there,
so that was really lovely. But he hasn't been able
to see Anita because he's just too frail to travel.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
What else would you like our listeners to know about
the common Dante shadow that we haven't talked about. We
only have a couple of minutes lap Dan Yella.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I think one of the points of the film is that,
you know, we tend to think of the Holocaust as
something deep in the past, and I mean for my
generation perhaps a bit less so, but certainly my teenage children.
You know, these are all things which happened a very
long time ago. And actually, I think it's important to
think that events like that really would shake the ground
(13:17):
beneath our feet. They have consequences, They ripple, you know,
the consequences ripple down the generations.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
They don't just end with the end.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
In this case of the shore, the descendants are affected,
you know, entire countries, entire societies are affected. So I think,
you know, I think we have to be mindful of
just the scale, you know, of these historic, kind of
horrific events. And then the other thing is really that
(13:51):
dialogue is possible that we'd like to you know, we
were hoping to make a film which gives a positive message.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
It doesn't just end.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
You know, this is what happened, and it was horrific
and people were affected by it, but you know, Anita
kind of in her last words, she glimpses at the
future and she sort of tries to encourage people to reflect,
and I think that's important. I mean, if you think
about it, Anita and Hans Yogen are really some of
(14:20):
the last witnesses.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
There are not very many Auschwitz.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Survivors left and obviously also not of her age. You know,
she was eighteen when she was at Auschwitz. And Hans
Jogen is really the last civilian alive who lived at
Auschwitz because there were hardly any who remembers. He had
a baby's sister who obviously was a baby then. So
it's really our last opportunity to tell these stories with
(14:46):
the first hand protagonist, a first hand witness.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Thank you so much, Danielle and Volker the Commandant Shadow
you can see now on HBO and Max.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You've been listening to Sunsteen sessions on iHeartRadio, a production
of New York's classic rock Q one O four point
three
Welcome to Sunstein Sessions on iHeartRadio, Conversations about issues that matter.
Here's your host, three time Grasie Award winner, Shelley Sunstein.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
One of the big Oscar winners in the last Oscars
was the Zone of Interest, which was the Nazi term
used for Auschwitz, and Auschwitz was built by Rudolph hess
and his family lived right across from Auschwitz, right across
(00:36):
from the gates of Auschwitz, living an idyllic life, and
it was an astounding movie. But even more astounding to
me is a documentary that you can now see on
HBO and Max. It's called The Commandant Shadow, and it's
the real life story of the son of Rudolph Hes
(01:00):
Yes and his son and what it was like for
him growing up in those years right by Auschwitz. And
then the most amazing meeting that both of them had
with a survivor of Auschwitz, a woman who was a
(01:22):
celloist in the band that played at Auschwitz, which saved
her life. Now imagine this a face to face meeting.
And the woman who put this all together is with
me this morning, Daniella Volker. First of all, welcome. Second
of all, congratulations. You should be up for Awards this year.
(01:45):
I mean, that was just an astounding documentary and left
me with so many questions. But first to you, how
did this all come about? This? I have to believe
this started before we even heard of the movie The
Zone of Interest.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Hi, good morning. Yes, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
So the film actually started in a very unusual way.
In the first week of lockdown, the COVID Lockdown in
twenty twenty, a friend of mine who knew Maya Luska Valfish,
the daughter of a Holocaust survivor, Anita Luskavalfish, contacted me
and she told me Maya was interested in talking about
(02:27):
her experience of transgenerational trauma as the daughter of someone
who'd survived Auschwitz and Bong Bozen and I had a
chat with her. I mean, I didn't think there was
a whole film in there, but there was something interesting. So,
because it was the lockdown and I had a bit
(02:48):
of time, I started doing research and I came across
a really extraordinary document on the Internet, which is the
autobiography of the camp commandant Rudolph Heirs, who was the
man who imagined and built and ran Auschwitz for quite
a lot of its existence. And I then found that
(03:08):
Rudolph Hearst had not written not only just written everything down,
he also had a descendant, a man who was roughly
Maya's age, same generation, and who, once I contacted him,
told me a very similar story of in a way,
living under the shadow of you know, terrible events, which
(03:28):
in this case he saw from the perpetrator side, you know,
not the survivor side. And it took me about a year,
but eventually I was introduced to his father, Hans Jogan,
who had grown up in the villa, which, as he
very well.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Described, is literally in Auschwitz.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
It's right by the gate the SS used to use,
and from his bedroom window Hans Yogan could see the
first crematorium that was in use. He could see the chimney. So,
you know, the kind of structure of the film gradually evolved.
I thought it should be the parallel stories of a
survivor and a perpetrator family. And I should say that
(04:10):
what is so extraordinary about Rudolph Hess's autobiography is not
just how candid he is about everything he did, but
also that he was unique, almost I would say, in
being both a prime witness and a perpetrator. You know
that that was something kind of in a way, very
appealing from a narrative spine point of view, because he
(04:34):
really had access all areas, you know, and they were
all you know. He he talks us through how he
came up with a concept for Auschwitz, which he calls
the greatest human extermination facility of all time.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
There were so many interesting things about this. First of all,
the sun kind of had to be blocking out out
what he saw as a child, because one of the
things he said he did not see was the human
ash falling, which he and his sister had to have seen, right,
(05:12):
but he had no memory of that at all.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yes, it's very interesting because I actually did ask the
educators at Auschwitz to look into it. And in the time,
so the crematorium that faced their house, it was about
two hundred and ninety yards away.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Would have been in use for over a year year.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
And a half and at least seventy eight thousand people
were guessed and cremated there, plus everyone who was executed.
So his family didn't take long holidays. Indeed, they didn't
take any holidays. I mean they may go on day trips,
but they always slept in the villa.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
So actually.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
There is you know, there is written, recorded evidence that
people died, and there's also I'm so sorry about all
these noises. There's recorded evidence of you know, deaths in
this place. But there's also the statements of the men's
Orchestra ad Auschwitz one which used to play literally in
(06:17):
front of the Heart's House, and they said sometimes the
smoke was so dense that they couldn't read the notes.
So I have come to the conclusion, as has his son,
that Hans Jogen deeply suppressed what happened. The fact that
he can't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen, but
(06:38):
he really cannot remember it.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I'm speaking with Daniella Volkerti is the director of The
Commandant Shadow. It's a documentary which you can see on
Max and HBO, and it's actually the real story of
the movie that we saw when Best Foreign Picture at
the oscars the Zone of Interest. It involves the sun
(07:06):
and daughter of Rudolph Hess how they lived an idyllic
life right by the gates of Auschwitz, in this beautiful
home with this gorgeous garden, and how they didn't have
a clue what was going on right across from them.
And in one of the most remarkable scenes. At the
(07:26):
end of the movie, the son of Rudolph Hess and
the grandson have a meeting at the home of an
Auschwitz survivor, and she is just an amazing woman. Tell
us Daniella your impressions of her, because I just could
not believe her strength and her grace.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yes, Anita, ask about Fish. Is really an extraordinary woman.
She turned ninety nine last week. She smokes quite a
few cigarettes a day, and she is someone who survived
two concentration camps, came to Britain, forged her life as
a cellist in the English Chamber Orchestra, which she co founded,
(08:13):
and basically spent fifty years. So from nineteen forty five
until nineteen ninety five, really she just looked ahead. And
you know, when she first arrived in Britain, people weren't
interested in hearing about Auschwitz, so she never talked about it,
and it became a habit, I think, so she didn't
(08:35):
talk about it publicly, nor to her own family, and
I think it was with the fiftieth anniversary kind of
commemorations that she was approached and then wrote a book
about her experiences, and that's when she in her seventies.
At that point launched a new career as a Holocaust educator,
(08:57):
going round talking to school children and giving TV interviews.
And you know, she is the most extraordinary woman because
for this film, I mean, it was a difficult task,
you know. I initially Maya, her daughter, asked would she
accompanied her to Auschwitz to meet the son of the commandant,
(09:18):
and she said in the film, no, my Auschwitz is
not your Auschwitz. I want it left alone. But she
agrees to what she invites them into her home. And
that was really an extraordinary moment which I haven't seen
before in a film where the children, the child of
a major perpetrator goes into the private sphere of a
(09:41):
survivor surrounded by photos of her dead parents killed by
the Nazis, and they have a meaningful conversation. So I
think it was really an extraordinary moment. And I should
add mister Hurst, the son of the commandant, was very
nervous because he hadn't actually ever met a Jewish survivor.
(10:02):
It was the first time, and he wasn't quite sure
what to expect and how he would be welcomed. And
Anita was so gracious and so generous as well. You know,
she said to him, you didn't choose your father, and
neither did I choose mine. You know, we were both
put in this situation, and she sort of emphasized that
(10:24):
it's important to look at the future.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
You get the feeling watching them being in the same
room that if they could have a conversation as difficult
as that in this very fractured world of ours, why
can this not happen in other circumstances? Right, That's how
that was my take from this. I mean, it doesn't
get more difficult than that.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
It was, Yes, you're right, it was very interesting. We
were in Israel. Our film won an award at the
Doka Viv Festival for Documentaries, and afterwards the wife of
a Rabba I came to talk to us, and the
next day in fact, and she said, my husband and
I talked about this film deep into the night, and
(11:09):
we realized that we never ever have spoken to a Palestinian.
We don't know our Arab neighbors. So then she she
had actually come to tell us that she and her
husband had decided to contact a charity to make appointments
for them to meet local Palestinians in Jerusalem, where they lived.
(11:29):
And that was really touching and unexpected and in a way,
I just thought that that is exactly the message Anita
wanted to convey, you know, talk to each other, know
the other in inverted commas, you know, and Anita always says,
you can then decide you don't like them, but you know,
just make an effort.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Have they stayed in touch? Do you know?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (11:54):
So, Hans Jogan, the son of the commandant, has been
in hospital, in and out of hospital, and he, you know,
hasn't really been able to travel.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
But Kai has met up with Mayo a few times.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
And actually Hans Jogan and Kai also met Maya and
Berlin at our premium because he had just come out
of hospital and he hadn't seen the film and you know,
if you imagine you're in your late eighties, you've been
filmed for four years. He had absolutely no idea what
to expect. So it was really important to us that
(12:29):
he could make it to a cinema premiere and watch
the film on a big screen. And Maya was there,
so that was really lovely. But he hasn't been able
to see Anita because he's just too frail to travel.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
What else would you like our listeners to know about
the common Dante shadow that we haven't talked about. We
only have a couple of minutes lap Dan Yella.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I think one of the points of the film is that,
you know, we tend to think of the Holocaust as
something deep in the past, and I mean for my
generation perhaps a bit less so, but certainly my teenage children.
You know, these are all things which happened a very
long time ago. And actually, I think it's important to
think that events like that really would shake the ground
(13:17):
beneath our feet. They have consequences, They ripple, you know,
the consequences ripple down the generations.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
They don't just end with the end.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
In this case of the shore, the descendants are affected,
you know, entire countries, entire societies are affected. So I think,
you know, I think we have to be mindful of
just the scale, you know, of these historic, kind of
horrific events. And then the other thing is really that
(13:51):
dialogue is possible that we'd like to you know, we
were hoping to make a film which gives a positive message.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
It doesn't just end.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
You know, this is what happened, and it was horrific
and people were affected by it, but you know, Anita
kind of in her last words, she glimpses at the
future and she sort of tries to encourage people to reflect,
and I think that's important. I mean, if you think
about it, Anita and Hans Yogen are really some of
(14:20):
the last witnesses.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
There are not very many Auschwitz.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Survivors left and obviously also not of her age. You know,
she was eighteen when she was at Auschwitz. And Hans
Jogen is really the last civilian alive who lived at
Auschwitz because there were hardly any who remembers. He had
a baby's sister who obviously was a baby then. So
it's really our last opportunity to tell these stories with
(14:46):
the first hand protagonist, a first hand witness.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Thank you so much, Danielle and Volker the Commandant Shadow
you can see now on HBO and Max.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You've been listening to Sunsteen sessions on iHeartRadio, a production
of New York's classic rock Q one O four point
three
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