Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When I asked to start the show from zero to ten,
how highly do you rate with zero being the worst
food ever and ten the best food ever?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
How highly do you rate Chef boy r D?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Because Shannon was having it for breakfast and I thought,
I'm a little jealous. I should have thought of that,
And I would like you to know we had a
lot of people giving the Chef boy r D scores
around eight, which is pretty remarkable. One person says, I'll
give it a six.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Not quite the.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Standard of jalapeno flavored Vienna sausages. Now those are some
excellent animal byproducts.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Feel free to text in at five six six nine zero,
as I always like to waste your time a little
bit in between serious topics, But you are more than
welcome to text five sixty six nine zero and tell
us how you feel about Chef.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Boy r D.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
My next conversation is not about Chef boy r D,
although doctor Tim Curry is welcome to give me his
opinion on it. Tim is CEO of Nova provides on
shore and near shore IT services and talent and things
like that, and he's written a very interesting book called
Swift Trust about how organizations develop trust, especially among themselves
(01:12):
within their own teams, especially as so much of the
population now, the working population is working either fully remote
or hybrid, and we got some stuff to talk about
there as well. So Tim Curry, welcome to CHAOA, thanks
for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Great to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Ross, Thanks for having me. Jen do you thanks for
let me know what I'm going to have for lunch today?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah? Do you want to opine a zero to ten?
Chef boy r D.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
You know I'm gonna give it. I'm going to give
it a I'm gonna give it a five on food
and nutrition, but I'm going to give it an eight
or nine on the nostalgia scale.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
There you go. All right, that's a very very good answer.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And let me just kind of frame what we're going
to talk about here based on a new Gallup poll
that asks people where would you like to work? Would
you like to work in the office, would you like
to work fully remote?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Or would you like to work hybrid? And I thought the.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Results of this were kind of interesting in that I
thought the older workers might want to, you know, be
be hybrid more, be around some other people more because
it's what they're used to. But it didn't turn out
that way at all. I don't know if you've taken
a close look at this survey.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I have. I have, and I found it interesting as well.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I think, you know, with the with the younger gen
Z entry level or early career employees showing a propensity
to want to return, at least in part to the
office and have a hybrid, hybrid work environment that, based
on my research and my experience, that doesn't really surprise me.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
And we can talk about why.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
And in the older the older workforce, you know, valuing
family life, home life, autonomy and flexibility more than in
the office really doesn't surprise me either, predominantly because as
we get older, our social circles become smaller, we become
more specialized than an expert, and what we do we
don't need as much, we don't need mentoring, we don't
(03:05):
need as much support in scaffolding, and we can be
a little more autonomous. And that trade off is really
important to folks who as they get older, family life,
what have you as family life or personal life or
home life is a little more more important to them
than all the things that when you're twenty five and
you know you want to be in an office. You
want to mentor you want to see how the world works.
(03:26):
You want to build long lasting inter personal relationships, and
that just doesn't happen when you're stuck at home, you know,
zooming and swiping and gaming, right right.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And let me just elaborate a little more on the
Gallup poll, folks. So the gen Z, which are nineteen
ninety seven, and later I realized there's another gen after that,
but the gen after that isn't.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Old enough to be in the workforce.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Gen Z seventy one percent said they would like to
be hybrid, whereas Gen X and baby boomers are both
around fifty five percent.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So the gen Z people, as they.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Don't want to go back to the office full time,
by the way, they want to go back to the
office part time.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And Tim, I guess the reason that that.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Surprised me is because my thought process is probably too cynical,
and I think right, So I think it surprised me
because I think of gen Z as people who don't
know how to have a conversation because they don't have conversations.
They do everything by text and by snapchat and whatever.
(04:26):
And probably the younger part of gen Z is maybe
worse on that scale, but I think of them as
unable to communicate and uninterested in communicating, And so I
didn't even really think about the idea that, oh, maybe
there's actually a gen Z worker who wants to be
a good worker and wants to mentor and wants to
do well in the office. That didn't even occur to me,
(04:46):
which probably unfair to gen Z, probably a bit.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I mean, I think we're you know, we paint with
a broad brush when we talk about gen Z.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, and we'll talk about you know, but I think.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
When look, these guys watch television, I mean, for two
hundred plus years, we had a thing called the office,
like since the invention of the typewriter, when like really
the modern office became a thing, what we would what
we would consider the modern business office became a thing for.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Two hundred plus years.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
That's how people made some portion of the organization of
the of the society made a living, right, And so
they're not immune or or unaware that that's how life
used to happen, right, you know, one at least one
thirty your life was spent in an office at a
company or an organization. So I think what they've found
(05:34):
is maybe it's a big as big a surprise to
them as it is to us. Ross in that Hey,
I do want mentorship, Hey I do want all these
things that I see on television and I read about
and I hear about and that people talk about. That
actually sounds a little bit better than being holed up
in my you know, in my one hundred square foot
apartment on zooms.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
For ten hours a day. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And part of that might have to do with the
type of work that they're being assigned and doing and
engaging in. Very task oriented, you know, very very like transactional.
So you know when you're when you're very transactional. We
talk about swift trust, which is the name name of
the book that I wrote. Swift Trust is a very
provisional type of trust, very transactional. Right, it's we're on
(06:20):
this project together. I trust you to do what I
ask you to do. You trust me to pay you
if you do it. And that's a very sort of
like shallow transactional world that isn't very fulfilling and is
easily replaced on both ends.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
So I think I think gen Z is like, hey,
maybe there's more to life. And if I am going
to have a career and have a job. I want
someone to I want someone to you know, actually mentor me,
or I want I want to be part of something.
I want to identify with something. I want to get
some fulfillment out of it. And you know, we're generally
(06:55):
is as bad a rap as gen Z gets around this,
we're all still three to mention beings. And it's human
nature to want to interact with people and look like
there's there's a downside to the return to office if
it's done poorly. You know, where people are commuting hour
and a half to get in an office and in
zoom with somebody that's that's working from home to some
other part.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Of the country. But I mean, in general, what they want.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Is what I think a lot of us, you know,
older generations got when we were in the office, right,
And and the appeal of that is is getting them
outside of this sort of like chain of command, task
oriented world that they're around all day long with their
you know, zooming with their camera off.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The other thing that I would say that, you know,
if I had thought about it more more thoroughly, that
would point to gen Z perhaps wanting to be at
least hybrid more is that younger people really took the
major brunt and the major psychological pain of the social
isolation during COVID, Right, I mean, it wasn't great for anybody,
(07:56):
but these are you know, younger people want to be
out with their friends.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
You know, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I think it was a lot harder for a twenty
five year old than for me.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I think, so, I mean, I mean I have two
teenage daughters and and it was.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
A disaster for them.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, Like so social emotionally, you know, as well as
probably some aspect of their academic performance and what they learned. Yeah,
they both, they both you know, rebounded well. But you're right,
like if we think back to you know, there's still
this uh, there's still this fomo when you're a teenager
or an early early twenties of wanting to be out,
(08:33):
wanting to be with other people your age, there's something
going on you're not a part of. Like there's you know,
that sort of human human emotion and human impulse hasn't changed, right,
And I and I think they, you know, like I said,
they might be just a surprise to learn that it's
a really unfulfilling life. And you know, we are if
you're just sitting there on a screen all day and
(08:54):
you're not having the type of human interaction that we
would call, you know, building quality in a personal relationships.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
We're talking with doctor Tim Curry. His book is called
Swift Trust and you can go to Swift trustbook dot
com or you can just go online and type in Tim.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Curry that C you R R I E Swift Trust.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And I was looking at while I am still looking
at the book website, and I wanted to ask you
to elaborate a little bit on a very interesting line.
You right, I was thirty eight thousand feet over the
Atlantic when I realized everything we thought we.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Knew about remote work was wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So we only have, you know, maybe four minutes left
here just to talk a little bit about what you
think people misunderstand about remote work and maybe talk to
managers as well, like what do they need to think?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, So, like like.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Trust, building organizational trust within within within a company or
a business or you know, whatever organization you might be
part of, is really important.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It builds, it builds.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
The kind of like connect of tissue that helps an
organization get through hard times, get through tough struggles. People
can work remotely and be be good at delivering on
tasks on time, on budget, under budget, like you know,
the sort of like really sort of pedestrian aspects of.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Of work, you know, and of business.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
But the things that I that the things that make
an organization thrive, make them innovate, make them, make them
persevere through you know, what are minimally very changing and
fluid times and market conditions, and you know, potentially you know,
very disruptive if we talk about AI and all the
things that are going to be flowing out through through
our society today. Is trust is organizational trust. And so
(10:41):
while on paper, on a spreadsheet, you can say, hey,
you know we're we're really productive. We're fine. You know,
we can we can work remotely. We save a lot
of bonet money on real estate and travel. Yeah that's true,
But what are you really accomplishing? What are you building
that's going to last? And I think that's the big
misconception we have around you know, or like the productivity
studies that come out around remote work. And that was
(11:05):
I was actually on a trip to meet my It
was during cod It was like the end of COVID
and the world was just opening up again and I
was on a flight to Europe to meet my country
managers in Germany, France and the UK, and I hadn't
met them in person, and we've been managing through a
very difficult time and it was the first time we
were going to get together, break bread, have a glass
(11:26):
of wine underneath the in the shadow of the Eiffel Tower,
and it was like, Okay, I was looking forward to
this because I knew I knew we needed to have
that human human interaction to get to get over the homepier.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
One other thing I want from your web page, and
I want you to talk about a little bit you right,
consider this shocking reality. Microsoft's internal research found that eighty
seven percent of their remote employees believe they're highly productive,
will only twelve percent of their managers agree that. That
is a pretty stunning thing. So what why is that important?
(12:03):
And if you're on either side of that, the worker
side or the manager's side, what what would you try
to do about it?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah? I mean so this.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Microsoft did some amazing studies during the pandemic right across
a really broad swath of their employee base, and this
is one of several that are really really telling and
really revealing and I think one is when you're this
was a group that was largely used to being in
the office, right, So you had a management structure that
was based on having people around, right, being able to
(12:33):
reach out and touch them and see them and see
them and interact with them.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
You also had a lot of other like sort.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Of scaffolding you know, that was based on was based
on wellness, based on inclusion, based on you know.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Your career path, based on like activities.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So those managers, although they might have in their heart
been like task managers and maybe even micromanagers, they had
all this other stuff around them to kind of shield
them from that or shield the people that worked with
them from it. And when they had to operate in
a purely sort of like outcome based world where everything
was done remotely, they didn't make.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
That transition very well.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
And so that's a huge perception obviously, it's a huge
perception gap twelve percent versus eighty seven. And so you know,
any good studies should just make you ask more questions
and say why, Like, you know, maybe some of the
eighty seven weren't being completely honest, and maybe some of.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
That some of the twelve, some of the people that
didn't say yes.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
On the management side, uh, you know, we're't you know,
we're being a little uh you know, reflecting some stress
that they were having and having to work in a
completely different new paradigm, right, And I think I think
if you had that same poll today would be a
little different. But what it brings out is organizational design
is really important. And I talked earlier about you know,
with this return to office, how many people have you
(13:54):
talked to ross that are like, Yeah, I got a
return to the office and I get there and I
end up having to be on a meeting with zoom,
or no one from my team is there, or my
manager is working from home. I mean that's like, that's
like the kiss of death right there. And so we've
become this really virtual world where, you know, especially in
the pandemic, like I can hire great talent from anywhere.
I don't have to hire them in San Francisco's Silicon Valley.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
They can live in.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Colorado, you know, they can live anywhere. And we kind
of have to unravel some of that. And I think
in the future, in the not too distant future, we
might see companies getting hyper local where it's like, yeah,
you've got to be in the office part of the time,
but you're going to work. You know, the people in
that office are going to be on your team or
or or on a set of teams you got to
(14:37):
interact with, and leadership's going to be there, and you're
gonna be talking about, Hey, I got to go to
the Chicago office or the Denver offs. I'm going to
talk about Chicago clients and Denver clients, right. I think
that's that might be one potential outcome of this, of
this kind of like Impede smithsmatch, where we have around
expectations of the workplace.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Doctor Tim Curry's book is called Swift Trust. You can
go to swift trustbook dot com or just you know,
look him up Tim Curry, that's c r Ie and
type in swift Trust and you'll find the book that
way as well. I think it's a super interesting area
of what management has to deal with now. I used
to own and run a business. We had eighty or
(15:17):
ninety employees, and I got to tell you, I'm so
glad I am not running a business now going through
all this and it just seems incredibly difficult, incredibly challenging,
and not necessarily even that much fun, even though it's
something you've got to do to make your business run. Right,
I'll give you the last twenty nine seconds because I
like prime numbers.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Of prime numbers, it is.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, Look, I mean, look, there are some organizations absolutely
thriving in this environment.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
They tend to be very small.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
They tend to be cloud native and nature, and they
tend to be they were operating on borrow trust right,
Like they all knew each other in the before times.
They can finish each other's sentences, and they were able
to impart a level of trust and engagement with their
remote employees.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
That that gets gets past all of all of that,
all of that sort of uh, you know mismatch. Right.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
The larger organizations, though, to your point, are having a
hard time. They're trying to just take you know, all
the old ways of doing things. You know, there's that
that's saying, you know that that meeting could have been
an email, that email could have been a text, and they're.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Not really they're not figuring it out.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Uh, they're leaving their workers with with the feeling like
they wasted most of their time. So let's just compartmentalize
it and move on with our lives.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh, that is a great line.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
That meeting could have been an email, That email could
have been a text.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
That's fabulous. By the way, Tim, go check out.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
UH at Axios Today axios dot com. They've got a
really interesting story or couple of stories about how slow
the adoption of AI is in large businesses because they're
having a hard time figuring out how to implement it
and all that. It's super interesting swift trust conversations. Yeah, indeed,
thanks for your time, Tim. We'll have you back for sure.
(16:54):
That was great, Thank you absolutely, Ross. Take it easy.
When I asked to start the show from zero to ten,
how highly do you rate with zero being the worst
food ever and ten the best food ever?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
How highly do you rate Chef boy r D?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Because Shannon was having it for breakfast and I thought,
I'm a little jealous. I should have thought of that,
And I would like you to know we had a
lot of people giving the Chef boy r D scores
around eight, which is pretty remarkable. One person says, I'll
give it a six.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Not quite the.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Standard of jalapeno flavored Vienna sausages. Now those are some
excellent animal byproducts.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Feel free to text in at five six six nine zero,
as I always like to waste your time a little
bit in between serious topics, But you are more than
welcome to text five sixty six nine zero and tell
us how you feel about Chef.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Boy r D.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
My next conversation is not about Chef boy r D,
although doctor Tim Curry is welcome to give me his
opinion on it. Tim is CEO of Nova provides on
shore and near shore IT services and talent and things
like that, and he's written a very interesting book called
Swift Trust about how organizations develop trust, especially among themselves
(01:12):
within their own teams, especially as so much of the
population now, the working population is working either fully remote
or hybrid, and we got some stuff to talk about
there as well. So Tim Curry, welcome to CHAOA, thanks
for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Great to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Ross, Thanks for having me. Jen do you thanks for
let me know what I'm going to have for lunch today?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah? Do you want to opine a zero to ten?
Chef boy r D.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
You know I'm gonna give it. I'm going to give
it a I'm gonna give it a five on food
and nutrition, but I'm going to give it an eight
or nine on the nostalgia scale.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
There you go. All right, that's a very very good answer.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And let me just kind of frame what we're going
to talk about here based on a new Gallup poll
that asks people where would you like to work? Would
you like to work in the office, would you like
to work fully remote?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Or would you like to work hybrid? And I thought the.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Results of this were kind of interesting in that I
thought the older workers might want to, you know, be
be hybrid more, be around some other people more because
it's what they're used to. But it didn't turn out
that way at all. I don't know if you've taken
a close look at this survey.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I have. I have, and I found it interesting as well.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I think, you know, with the with the younger gen
Z entry level or early career employees showing a propensity
to want to return, at least in part to the
office and have a hybrid, hybrid work environment that, based
on my research and my experience, that doesn't really surprise me.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
And we can talk about why.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
And in the older the older workforce, you know, valuing
family life, home life, autonomy and flexibility more than in
the office really doesn't surprise me either, predominantly because as
we get older, our social circles become smaller, we become
more specialized than an expert, and what we do we
don't need as much, we don't need mentoring, we don't
(03:05):
need as much support in scaffolding, and we can be
a little more autonomous. And that trade off is really
important to folks who as they get older, family life,
what have you as family life or personal life or
home life is a little more more important to them
than all the things that when you're twenty five and
you know you want to be in an office. You
want to mentor you want to see how the world works.
(03:26):
You want to build long lasting inter personal relationships, and
that just doesn't happen when you're stuck at home, you know,
zooming and swiping and gaming, right right.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And let me just elaborate a little more on the
Gallup poll, folks. So the gen Z, which are nineteen
ninety seven, and later I realized there's another gen after that,
but the gen after that isn't.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Old enough to be in the workforce.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Gen Z seventy one percent said they would like to
be hybrid, whereas Gen X and baby boomers are both
around fifty five percent.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So the gen Z people, as they.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Don't want to go back to the office full time,
by the way, they want to go back to the
office part time.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And Tim, I guess the reason that that.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Surprised me is because my thought process is probably too cynical,
and I think right, So I think it surprised me
because I think of gen Z as people who don't
know how to have a conversation because they don't have conversations.
They do everything by text and by snapchat and whatever.
(04:26):
And probably the younger part of gen Z is maybe
worse on that scale, but I think of them as
unable to communicate and uninterested in communicating, And so I
didn't even really think about the idea that, oh, maybe
there's actually a gen Z worker who wants to be
a good worker and wants to mentor and wants to
do well in the office. That didn't even occur to me,
(04:46):
which probably unfair to gen Z, probably a bit.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I mean, I think we're you know, we paint with
a broad brush when we talk about gen Z.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, and we'll talk about you know, but I think.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
When look, these guys watch television, I mean, for two
hundred plus years, we had a thing called the office,
like since the invention of the typewriter, when like really
the modern office became a thing, what we would what
we would consider the modern business office became a thing for.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Two hundred plus years.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
That's how people made some portion of the organization of
the of the society made a living, right, And so
they're not immune or or unaware that that's how life
used to happen, right, you know, one at least one
thirty your life was spent in an office at a
company or an organization. So I think what they've found
(05:34):
is maybe it's a big as big a surprise to
them as it is to us. Ross in that Hey,
I do want mentorship, Hey I do want all these
things that I see on television and I read about
and I hear about and that people talk about. That
actually sounds a little bit better than being holed up
in my you know, in my one hundred square foot
apartment on zooms.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
For ten hours a day. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And part of that might have to do with the
type of work that they're being assigned and doing and
engaging in. Very task oriented, you know, very very like transactional.
So you know when you're when you're very transactional. We
talk about swift trust, which is the name name of
the book that I wrote. Swift Trust is a very
provisional type of trust, very transactional. Right, it's we're on
(06:20):
this project together. I trust you to do what I
ask you to do. You trust me to pay you
if you do it. And that's a very sort of
like shallow transactional world that isn't very fulfilling and is
easily replaced on both ends.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
So I think I think gen Z is like, hey,
maybe there's more to life. And if I am going
to have a career and have a job. I want
someone to I want someone to you know, actually mentor me,
or I want I want to be part of something.
I want to identify with something. I want to get
some fulfillment out of it. And you know, we're generally
(06:55):
is as bad a rap as gen Z gets around this,
we're all still three to mention beings. And it's human
nature to want to interact with people and look like
there's there's a downside to the return to office if
it's done poorly. You know, where people are commuting hour
and a half to get in an office and in
zoom with somebody that's that's working from home to some
other part.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Of the country. But I mean, in general, what they want.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Is what I think a lot of us, you know,
older generations got when we were in the office, right,
And and the appeal of that is is getting them
outside of this sort of like chain of command, task
oriented world that they're around all day long with their
you know, zooming with their camera off.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The other thing that I would say that, you know,
if I had thought about it more more thoroughly, that
would point to gen Z perhaps wanting to be at
least hybrid more is that younger people really took the
major brunt and the major psychological pain of the social
isolation during COVID, Right, I mean, it wasn't great for anybody,
(07:56):
but these are you know, younger people want to be
out with their friends.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
You know, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I think it was a lot harder for a twenty
five year old than for me.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I think, so, I mean, I mean I have two
teenage daughters and and it was.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
A disaster for them.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, Like so social emotionally, you know, as well as
probably some aspect of their academic performance and what they learned. Yeah,
they both, they both you know, rebounded well. But you're right,
like if we think back to you know, there's still
this uh, there's still this fomo when you're a teenager
or an early early twenties of wanting to be out,
(08:33):
wanting to be with other people your age, there's something
going on you're not a part of. Like there's you know,
that sort of human human emotion and human impulse hasn't changed, right,
And I and I think they, you know, like I said,
they might be just a surprise to learn that it's
a really unfulfilling life. And you know, we are if
you're just sitting there on a screen all day and
(08:54):
you're not having the type of human interaction that we
would call, you know, building quality in a personal relationships.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
We're talking with doctor Tim Curry. His book is called
Swift Trust and you can go to Swift trustbook dot
com or you can just go online and type in Tim.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Curry that C you R R I E Swift Trust.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And I was looking at while I am still looking
at the book website, and I wanted to ask you
to elaborate a little bit on a very interesting line.
You right, I was thirty eight thousand feet over the
Atlantic when I realized everything we thought we.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Knew about remote work was wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So we only have, you know, maybe four minutes left
here just to talk a little bit about what you
think people misunderstand about remote work and maybe talk to
managers as well, like what do they need to think?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, So, like like.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Trust, building organizational trust within within within a company or
a business or you know, whatever organization you might be
part of, is really important.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It builds, it builds.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
The kind of like connect of tissue that helps an
organization get through hard times, get through tough struggles. People
can work remotely and be be good at delivering on
tasks on time, on budget, under budget, like you know,
the sort of like really sort of pedestrian aspects of.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Of work, you know, and of business.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
But the things that I that the things that make
an organization thrive, make them innovate, make them, make them
persevere through you know, what are minimally very changing and
fluid times and market conditions, and you know, potentially you know,
very disruptive if we talk about AI and all the
things that are going to be flowing out through through
our society today. Is trust is organizational trust. And so
(10:41):
while on paper, on a spreadsheet, you can say, hey,
you know we're we're really productive. We're fine. You know,
we can we can work remotely. We save a lot
of bonet money on real estate and travel. Yeah that's true,
But what are you really accomplishing? What are you building
that's going to last? And I think that's the big
misconception we have around you know, or like the productivity
studies that come out around remote work. And that was
(11:05):
I was actually on a trip to meet my It
was during cod It was like the end of COVID
and the world was just opening up again and I
was on a flight to Europe to meet my country
managers in Germany, France and the UK, and I hadn't
met them in person, and we've been managing through a
very difficult time and it was the first time we
were going to get together, break bread, have a glass
(11:26):
of wine underneath the in the shadow of the Eiffel Tower,
and it was like, Okay, I was looking forward to
this because I knew I knew we needed to have
that human human interaction to get to get over the homepier.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
One other thing I want from your web page, and
I want you to talk about a little bit you right,
consider this shocking reality. Microsoft's internal research found that eighty
seven percent of their remote employees believe they're highly productive,
will only twelve percent of their managers agree that. That
is a pretty stunning thing. So what why is that important?
(12:03):
And if you're on either side of that, the worker
side or the manager's side, what what would you try
to do about it?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah? I mean so this.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Microsoft did some amazing studies during the pandemic right across
a really broad swath of their employee base, and this
is one of several that are really really telling and
really revealing and I think one is when you're this
was a group that was largely used to being in
the office, right, So you had a management structure that
was based on having people around, right, being able to
(12:33):
reach out and touch them and see them and see
them and interact with them.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
You also had a lot of other like sort.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Of scaffolding you know, that was based on was based
on wellness, based on inclusion, based on you know.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Your career path, based on like activities.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So those managers, although they might have in their heart
been like task managers and maybe even micromanagers, they had
all this other stuff around them to kind of shield
them from that or shield the people that worked with
them from it. And when they had to operate in
a purely sort of like outcome based world where everything
was done remotely, they didn't make.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
That transition very well.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
And so that's a huge perception obviously, it's a huge
perception gap twelve percent versus eighty seven. And so you know,
any good studies should just make you ask more questions
and say why, Like, you know, maybe some of the
eighty seven weren't being completely honest, and maybe some of.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
That some of the twelve, some of the people that
didn't say yes.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
On the management side, uh, you know, we're't you know,
we're being a little uh you know, reflecting some stress
that they were having and having to work in a
completely different new paradigm, right, And I think I think
if you had that same poll today would be a
little different. But what it brings out is organizational design
is really important. And I talked earlier about you know,
with this return to office, how many people have you
(13:54):
talked to ross that are like, Yeah, I got a
return to the office and I get there and I
end up having to be on a meeting with zoom,
or no one from my team is there, or my
manager is working from home. I mean that's like, that's
like the kiss of death right there. And so we've
become this really virtual world where, you know, especially in
the pandemic, like I can hire great talent from anywhere.
I don't have to hire them in San Francisco's Silicon Valley.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
They can live in.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Colorado, you know, they can live anywhere. And we kind
of have to unravel some of that. And I think
in the future, in the not too distant future, we
might see companies getting hyper local where it's like, yeah,
you've got to be in the office part of the time,
but you're going to work. You know, the people in
that office are going to be on your team or
or or on a set of teams you got to
(14:37):
interact with, and leadership's going to be there, and you're
gonna be talking about, Hey, I got to go to
the Chicago office or the Denver offs. I'm going to
talk about Chicago clients and Denver clients, right. I think
that's that might be one potential outcome of this, of
this kind of like Impede smithsmatch, where we have around
expectations of the workplace.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Doctor Tim Curry's book is called Swift Trust. You can
go to swift trustbook dot com or just you know,
look him up Tim Curry, that's c r Ie and
type in swift Trust and you'll find the book that
way as well. I think it's a super interesting area
of what management has to deal with now. I used
to own and run a business. We had eighty or
(15:17):
ninety employees, and I got to tell you, I'm so
glad I am not running a business now going through
all this and it just seems incredibly difficult, incredibly challenging,
and not necessarily even that much fun, even though it's
something you've got to do to make your business run. Right,
I'll give you the last twenty nine seconds because I
like prime numbers.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Of prime numbers, it is.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, Look, I mean, look, there are some organizations absolutely
thriving in this environment.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
They tend to be very small.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
They tend to be cloud native and nature, and they
tend to be they were operating on borrow trust right,
Like they all knew each other in the before times.
They can finish each other's sentences, and they were able
to impart a level of trust and engagement with their
remote employees.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
That that gets gets past all of all of that,
all of that sort of uh, you know mismatch. Right.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
The larger organizations, though, to your point, are having a
hard time. They're trying to just take you know, all
the old ways of doing things. You know, there's that
that's saying, you know that that meeting could have been
an email, that email could have been a text, and they're.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Not really they're not figuring it out.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Uh, they're leaving their workers with with the feeling like
they wasted most of their time. So let's just compartmentalize
it and move on with our lives.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh, that is a great line.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
That meeting could have been an email, That email could
have been a text.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
That's fabulous. By the way, Tim, go check out.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
UH at Axios Today axios dot com. They've got a
really interesting story or couple of stories about how slow
the adoption of AI is in large businesses because they're
having a hard time figuring out how to implement it
and all that. It's super interesting swift trust conversations. Yeah, indeed,
thanks for your time, Tim. We'll have you back for sure.
(16:54):
That was great, Thank you absolutely, Ross. Take it easy.
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
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