Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, let's see.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm gonna hit a button here on my trusty laptop
and all.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Right, let's do this.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I think you may be muted by the way, so
there we go.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
All right.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm very pleased to welcome to the show a fellow
economics nerd just like I am. Mike Murphy is senior
VP and chief of Staff at the Committee for a
Responsible Federal Budget. Oftentimes out there you will hear names
of think tank, some of which have distinct partisan leanings,
like Heritage on the right, or Brookings or ACLU on
(00:33):
the left. Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget is a
nonpartisan think tank, and I really appreciate the work they
do focusing on what I think is our most important
domestic issue.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
So Mike Murphy, welcome to KOA Ross.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Great to be with you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So I want to I want to do two things.
I want to do a little econ and then a
little politics. So on the econ side, and I'm gonna
play Devil's advocate for a second, because I get this
from time to time from some of my more left
leaning listeners. Mike, We've been told for years that the
debt and deficit are a big problem. And I mean
we've been told that since the since the debt was
(01:11):
three trillion dollars and now it's thirty whatever trillion dollars.
So I kind of feel like you're the boy who
cried wolf.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Why should I care about the debton deficit?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, Well, here's what I would say in response to that. Ross.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
We've also heard a lot from similar people, same types
of people at interest rates, we're going to stay low
for a long time, and therefore it's okay that we can.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Borrow and add to this debt. Well, that didn't turn
out so well, did it? Okay?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Interest rates then went up, and here is the here's
the key point. We are going to spend in this
this the year that just ended, we just spent more
on interest on our national debt and we do in
an entire year on defense. Okay, We've spent more on
interest on the debt about nine hundred billion dollars that
we spent in a year on medicare.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
So the reason that this matters is you're right. We've
been saying for a long time the debt is too high.
The debt is growing, but it is now skyrocketing and
the reason that is skyrocketing is because of known factors, aging, demographics,
healthcare costs. So we know one we're coming from a
long time. We didn't prepare for it. And now our
debt trajectory, it is high right now. Measured as a
(02:18):
percentage of our economy, it's almost the same exact size,
almost one hundred percent size of the economy, but it.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Is projected to grow over twenty four trillion dollars more
just in the next decade.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
And so if we think that our budget situation is
getting squeezed by that interest right now, that I said,
wait till those folks see where it goes within the
next ten years.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Okay, So just in the interesting time, I am going
from this point forward to stipulate that I agree with
you that debt and deficit are a huge problem, which
I already did agree with you, but I just wanted.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
To bring that up because we hear it a lot. Now.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
You talked about the trajectory we're on right now, what
is to be done to fix this? And you could
give you an answer that ranges between politics and economics,
because clearly there are economic policies that need to change,
but we also have politicians who need to change.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So what is to be done?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely right. So I look, I think there's
a couple of things. When we're asked this question. One
of the first things we say is one of the
ways you solve this problem, or a first principle of
solving this problem is stop making it worse, right Like, So,
what's going on often in Washington is there's just a
consistent pattern of putting forward new new spending programs and
(03:38):
or new tax cuts and then choosing not to pay
for them, right, And we're at risk of that happening
work okay in the next year or two, based on
some of the ways the kind of the campaign is
going right now, frankly, and also some of the things
that are on tap next year in Washington that we
have tax cuts that are kind of expiring, we have
that's sealing to deal with other budgetgreements is gonna have
(03:59):
to be dealt with. So they just need to stop
making worse. Is pago principal ross what you might be
familiar with, right, it's the idea that you need to
pay for things as you go. So one thing when
you're in a holy stop digging. So the first thing
is we got to do that. So that's that's kind
of four principle number one. But then it's like, how
do you bend the trajectory right, get the trajectory back
on track because it's already on bad track. And the
(04:20):
way you do that is you got to look at
this sounds simple, but obviously you got to look at
both the spending side and the revenue side. And you
in your introduction you said we are a nonpartisan by parson,
we are. We approach that in that way where you know,
we believe when one looks at these numbers, you got
to look at both sides of the ledger. It's very
very hard to tackle this and get it on a
trajectory all on one side of this, okay, for numerous reasons. Right,
(04:43):
And so if you look at both of those, on
the spending and the revenue side and the spending side,
you have to look at where the money is. Frankly, right,
eighty seven percent of projected spending growth over the next
ten years is due to three things. Healthcare spending, sold
security spending, and interest on the debt. Okay, well, you
(05:04):
can't do anything directly if an interest on the debt,
you got to get your trajectory in right. So it's
these big ticket drivers are due to agent demographics and
healthcare across social security, of medical and healthcare, and those
are really hard to tackle politically. But we got to
ask some difficult conversations about that and there are some
reforms to do it. So that's where you've got to
focus some attention on that side and on the revenue side. Look,
(05:24):
I'm going to have a debate about tax puss next year.
We got to figure out we can look through that code,
look through a lot of the various exemptions, deductions, credits,
things that are in there, see if we can clean
up the code, make some efficiencies, and see if we
can raise some generate some revenue at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
So for me personally, while I am nonpartisan in the
sense that I am unaffiliated and you know, neither Republican
nor Democrat, it doesn't mean I'm unbiased. So I have
a very strong I have a very strong bias here
that almost all of our problem is spending and very
little of it is taxation. And as a percentage of
(06:01):
national revenue that is taken in by the federal government,
it's it's higher now than it has been historically it's
lower than Europe, but Europe has a much lower standard
standard of living than we do. I think a lot
of people don't really know that it's much better live
in America. And also, tax hikes tend not to bring
(06:23):
in the income they were projected to bring in, and
tax cuts tend not to reduce revenue as much as
people projected.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Do you do you disagree with me?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Do you do you think there's a lot of money
to be had on the revenue side, or that the
big driver is spending.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
The big driver going forward is automatic spending growth kind
of built in due to primarily, as I said, some
of these programs are as social security, healthcare related programs
that just grow automatically, right, So that is a big
key driver of the pudgetsho situation.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
The issue is.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It's more called sort of a structural deficit, right. So
it's a structural deficit in the sense that they're on
the spending side, those things are projected to just grow
and grow and grow, but your revenue is relatively flat, right,
Your revenue is projected to be relatively five percentage you
do put it, right, And so the question is how
do you deal with that big structural and balance right,
because the spending is going to skyrocket so much, you're
(07:22):
eily gonna have to bend that spending curve enormously, right,
because it's really big to kind of get in line,
or you got to have some conversation about how you
generate some more revenue than you are relatively right now.
The one way you generate more revenue, okay, is by
economic growth.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
The more economic growth you have, the more you can
bring in some revenue. And you I think alluded to
this at least and the tax cuts point right, is
that a lot of people make the argument that you
cut taxes, it obviously can stimulate growth.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
The issue there is most people.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Look at all these things, analysis analysis on this is
it can generate some growth, and the past tax cuts
have generated some growth, but it can't generate enough to
make for the entire revenue. Looks it's going to make
up for some smaller portion of that. Okay, it's not
going to make up for the whole thing. Some people
have made the case to look at the tax bets.
They kind of look at our revenue projections, Oh, we've
done pretty good, like relative to what they said. That's true,
(08:13):
but a lot of times what they're not accounting for
is inflation. Like you look at the baseline projections a
couple of years ago where they might have been for
the tax bets, and you think it like matches up.
It's like a lot of us do to inflation. The
revenue is fire because of inflation, not necessarily the task
gets brought in onong. So there's a lot there, and
I think there are reasonable ways when people look at
(08:33):
this to maybe think about generating more revenue.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So all right, I want to do two more things
with you. So Jernamal Harris.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Always Democrats generally talk about that the rich don't pay
their fair share, and they're right, but they're right in
the opposite direction from what they believe. The rich pay
too much. In the middle class don't pay enough. In
this country. You know, the top one percent pay more
than the bottom ninety five percent, and the top one
percent pays a share of all income taxes something like
(09:03):
double their share of the national income. And you know,
you know the old Willy Horton thing, you know, asked
him why he robbed it's an apocryphal, I'm sure, but
when asked why he robbed banks, Willy Horton said, that's
where the money is. And I don't think that the
Democratic idea of raising corporate.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Taxes and taxes on the rich.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Has any chance at all of solving this problem because
the rich are frankly not where the money is. And
the only way that you're going to make a real
difference on the revenue side is by increasing taxes on
the middle class, which which you know, what, if we
have to, we have to. I'm middle class, you know,
I'll do my part as long as they're also cutting
spending and not making it worse.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
So a couple of things on that ross, right, Like,
So one of the things that's been around for a
long time. People are talking about some of these budget
based in Washington, they bring up taxes, is they a
lot of people like to say and bemoan sort of
on the Republicans out of the aisles, like there's this
no new taxes pledge, right like that that's been out
there for a while, but people can't talk about taxes
all the Republican set. Well, guess what, there's a pledge
(10:09):
on the Democratic side now too, and it's been out
there for a little while. And that pledge is that
they're not going to talk about raising taxes for anyone
below four hundred thousand dollars a year. That pledge has
been out there that by administration put that out. Vice
President Harris is basically not stuck to that as well.
And look, as a fiscal responsibility, if we obviously don't
like those things, we don't think that you should be
(10:30):
tying your hands, okay when you have such a troubling
fiscal situation. And look, I get that four hundred thousand
dollars might not get you as far relatively speaking in
different parts of the country, etc. But it's still four
hundred thousand dollars okay. And they basically have put that
pledge out there right as a way limiting that.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So there's this pledge out there.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
You're kind of alluding to a little bit ross that
kind of gets at this very point, And yeah, you
are correct, right, Look, there are probably ways that are
going to be on the table should be on the tables.
See where you're going to generate some more revenue from
people at the wealthy under ex spectrum, But there is
not enough money there, right, And you're saying to deal
with the revenue side of.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
This in a comprehensive way.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
At the same time, what you often hear, right is
from the Democratic side of the so to speak, is
a lot of times those higher revenues that they want
to say, are you being used to finance new programs,
right or new to initiatives, not necessarily to use it
to deal with an already troubling fiscal situation.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
So, I think there's there's a couple of things there,
I think, but I think you are basically spot on
the very politically difficult point is that the reality here
is if you're going to deal with this over the
long term, revenues below those that pledge line, we're probably.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Going to have to be on the table.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
We're talking with Mike Murphy, who is senior vice president
and chief of staff at the Committee for a Responsible
Federal Budget CRFB dot org.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Uh Okay, do two things with me real quick, and
then and then we'll go. Uh So.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Donald Trump's biggest failure as a president on domestic policy
was his lack of care for debt and deficit, and
many Republicans who used to pretend to care about debt
and deficit hid behind Donald Trump's skirts when he was
president and just spent like Democrats and.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Donald Trump himself.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
You know, when we dropped all this insane helicopter money
into the economy, he wanted to spend more. So Donald
Trump is as bad as you could ever imagine a
Republican being on this issue.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
How should we expect that anything.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Good will happen on this when our choices are Kamala
Harris and.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
A Republican who spends like a Democrat.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Well, ye, you're raised a good point. Ross has no
doubt about what you're saying in terms of the fact
that if you examined the records here, President Trump when
he was in office worsened our fiscal situation. There's no
doubt about that, through a combination on the tax cuts
and spending side, and certainly based on what he's putting
fur from his campaign to date, not giving any indication
(13:03):
that that's going to change course, right, particularly when it
comes to it seems like on a weekly basis offering
new ideas that are just going to cost more and
more money. No taxes on social Security, no taxes on overtime,
no taxes on pick you're writing, right, and it just
keeps coming out. So that's definitely concerning. And on the
Harris side. They've said some things, try to do some
(13:24):
things where they're going to say they're going to try
and pay for some things. But as I said, they
are in a lot of cases, you know, having many
new initiatives but not enough to offset the cost and
then deal with the dead situation as well. So you're
right to be concerned. Here's where I'll give you hope.
I'll give you hope is that. Look, we work in Washington,
and believe it or not, well it does feel pretty
lonely to work in advancing fiscal responsibility. There are a
(13:47):
good number of members of Congress that are really trying
to do the right thing on this. There's a group
in the House called the Bipartisan Fiscal Form. It's headed
up by bipartisan members of Congress from both sides of
the aisle. Bill Hesinga from Michigan report Looking and Scott Peters,
a Democrat from California, and they are convening folks to
try to focus on these issues. And as I allude
(14:09):
to before, of us there are many action forcing moments
next year where.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Physicals is going to be on the table.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
But the point here is that I'm trying to make
is I get and sympathize with your point about where's
the leadership on this at the presidential level, and that's
critically important. I'm not trying to downplay that, but there
are leaders in Congress that are trying to focus on
this and we need people from the outside to recognize
that and do everything we can to support them and
doing so.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Mike Murphy, Senior VP with Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.
These guys do a lot of great work CRFB dot org.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
If you forget any of that, just.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Go to my website at Rosscominsky dot com. All of
this stuff is linked to there in today's blog. Thanks
for your time, Mike, great conversation.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
We'll have you back.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Thanks Ross, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
All right, glad to do it.
All right, let's see.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm gonna hit a button here on my trusty laptop
and all.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Right, let's do this.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I think you may be muted by the way, so
there we go.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
All right.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm very pleased to welcome to the show a fellow
economics nerd just like I am. Mike Murphy is senior
VP and chief of Staff at the Committee for a
Responsible Federal Budget. Oftentimes out there you will hear names
of think tank, some of which have distinct partisan leanings,
like Heritage on the right, or Brookings or ACLU on
(00:33):
the left. Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget is a
nonpartisan think tank, and I really appreciate the work they
do focusing on what I think is our most important
domestic issue.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
So Mike Murphy, welcome to KOA Ross.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Great to be with you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So I want to I want to do two things.
I want to do a little econ and then a
little politics. So on the econ side, and I'm gonna
play Devil's advocate for a second, because I get this
from time to time from some of my more left
leaning listeners. Mike, We've been told for years that the
debt and deficit are a big problem. And I mean
we've been told that since the since the debt was
(01:11):
three trillion dollars and now it's thirty whatever trillion dollars.
So I kind of feel like you're the boy who
cried wolf.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Why should I care about the debton deficit?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, Well, here's what I would say in response to that. Ross.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
We've also heard a lot from similar people, same types
of people at interest rates, we're going to stay low
for a long time, and therefore it's okay that we can.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Borrow and add to this debt. Well, that didn't turn
out so well, did it? Okay?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Interest rates then went up, and here is the here's
the key point. We are going to spend in this
this the year that just ended, we just spent more
on interest on our national debt and we do in
an entire year on defense. Okay, We've spent more on
interest on the debt about nine hundred billion dollars that
we spent in a year on medicare.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
So the reason that this matters is you're right. We've
been saying for a long time the debt is too high.
The debt is growing, but it is now skyrocketing and
the reason that is skyrocketing is because of known factors, aging, demographics,
healthcare costs. So we know one we're coming from a
long time. We didn't prepare for it. And now our
debt trajectory, it is high right now. Measured as a
(02:18):
percentage of our economy, it's almost the same exact size,
almost one hundred percent size of the economy, but it.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Is projected to grow over twenty four trillion dollars more
just in the next decade.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
And so if we think that our budget situation is
getting squeezed by that interest right now, that I said,
wait till those folks see where it goes within the
next ten years.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Okay, So just in the interesting time, I am going
from this point forward to stipulate that I agree with
you that debt and deficit are a huge problem, which
I already did agree with you, but I just wanted.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
To bring that up because we hear it a lot. Now.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
You talked about the trajectory we're on right now, what
is to be done to fix this? And you could
give you an answer that ranges between politics and economics,
because clearly there are economic policies that need to change,
but we also have politicians who need to change.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So what is to be done?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely right. So I look, I think there's
a couple of things. When we're asked this question. One
of the first things we say is one of the
ways you solve this problem, or a first principle of
solving this problem is stop making it worse, right Like, So,
what's going on often in Washington is there's just a
consistent pattern of putting forward new new spending programs and
(03:38):
or new tax cuts and then choosing not to pay
for them, right, And we're at risk of that happening
work okay in the next year or two, based on
some of the ways the kind of the campaign is
going right now, frankly, and also some of the things
that are on tap next year in Washington that we
have tax cuts that are kind of expiring, we have
that's sealing to deal with other budgetgreements is gonna have
(03:59):
to be dealt with. So they just need to stop
making worse. Is pago principal ross what you might be
familiar with, right, it's the idea that you need to
pay for things as you go. So one thing when
you're in a holy stop digging. So the first thing
is we got to do that. So that's that's kind
of four principle number one. But then it's like, how
do you bend the trajectory right, get the trajectory back
on track because it's already on bad track. And the
(04:20):
way you do that is you got to look at
this sounds simple, but obviously you got to look at
both the spending side and the revenue side. And you
in your introduction you said we are a nonpartisan by parson,
we are. We approach that in that way where you know,
we believe when one looks at these numbers, you got
to look at both sides of the ledger. It's very
very hard to tackle this and get it on a
trajectory all on one side of this, okay, for numerous reasons. Right,
(04:43):
And so if you look at both of those, on
the spending and the revenue side and the spending side,
you have to look at where the money is. Frankly, right,
eighty seven percent of projected spending growth over the next
ten years is due to three things. Healthcare spending, sold
security spending, and interest on the debt. Okay, well, you
(05:04):
can't do anything directly if an interest on the debt,
you got to get your trajectory in right. So it's
these big ticket drivers are due to agent demographics and
healthcare across social security, of medical and healthcare, and those
are really hard to tackle politically. But we got to
ask some difficult conversations about that and there are some
reforms to do it. So that's where you've got to
focus some attention on that side and on the revenue side. Look,
(05:24):
I'm going to have a debate about tax puss next year.
We got to figure out we can look through that code,
look through a lot of the various exemptions, deductions, credits,
things that are in there, see if we can clean
up the code, make some efficiencies, and see if we
can raise some generate some revenue at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
So for me personally, while I am nonpartisan in the
sense that I am unaffiliated and you know, neither Republican
nor Democrat, it doesn't mean I'm unbiased. So I have
a very strong I have a very strong bias here
that almost all of our problem is spending and very
little of it is taxation. And as a percentage of
(06:01):
national revenue that is taken in by the federal government,
it's it's higher now than it has been historically it's
lower than Europe, but Europe has a much lower standard
standard of living than we do. I think a lot
of people don't really know that it's much better live
in America. And also, tax hikes tend not to bring
(06:23):
in the income they were projected to bring in, and
tax cuts tend not to reduce revenue as much as
people projected.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Do you do you disagree with me?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Do you do you think there's a lot of money
to be had on the revenue side, or that the
big driver is spending.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
The big driver going forward is automatic spending growth kind
of built in due to primarily, as I said, some
of these programs are as social security, healthcare related programs
that just grow automatically, right, So that is a big
key driver of the pudgetsho situation.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
The issue is.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It's more called sort of a structural deficit, right. So
it's a structural deficit in the sense that they're on
the spending side, those things are projected to just grow
and grow and grow, but your revenue is relatively flat, right,
Your revenue is projected to be relatively five percentage you
do put it, right, And so the question is how
do you deal with that big structural and balance right,
because the spending is going to skyrocket so much, you're
(07:22):
eily gonna have to bend that spending curve enormously, right,
because it's really big to kind of get in line,
or you got to have some conversation about how you
generate some more revenue than you are relatively right now.
The one way you generate more revenue, okay, is by
economic growth.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
The more economic growth you have, the more you can
bring in some revenue. And you I think alluded to
this at least and the tax cuts point right, is
that a lot of people make the argument that you
cut taxes, it obviously can stimulate growth.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
The issue there is most people.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Look at all these things, analysis analysis on this is
it can generate some growth, and the past tax cuts
have generated some growth, but it can't generate enough to
make for the entire revenue. Looks it's going to make
up for some smaller portion of that. Okay, it's not
going to make up for the whole thing. Some people
have made the case to look at the tax bets.
They kind of look at our revenue projections, Oh, we've
done pretty good, like relative to what they said. That's true,
(08:13):
but a lot of times what they're not accounting for
is inflation. Like you look at the baseline projections a
couple of years ago where they might have been for
the tax bets, and you think it like matches up.
It's like a lot of us do to inflation. The
revenue is fire because of inflation, not necessarily the task
gets brought in onong. So there's a lot there, and
I think there are reasonable ways when people look at
(08:33):
this to maybe think about generating more revenue.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So all right, I want to do two more things
with you. So Jernamal Harris.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Always Democrats generally talk about that the rich don't pay
their fair share, and they're right, but they're right in
the opposite direction from what they believe. The rich pay
too much. In the middle class don't pay enough. In
this country. You know, the top one percent pay more
than the bottom ninety five percent, and the top one
percent pays a share of all income taxes something like
(09:03):
double their share of the national income. And you know,
you know the old Willy Horton thing, you know, asked
him why he robbed it's an apocryphal, I'm sure, but
when asked why he robbed banks, Willy Horton said, that's
where the money is. And I don't think that the
Democratic idea of raising corporate.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Taxes and taxes on the rich.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Has any chance at all of solving this problem because
the rich are frankly not where the money is. And
the only way that you're going to make a real
difference on the revenue side is by increasing taxes on
the middle class, which which you know, what, if we
have to, we have to. I'm middle class, you know,
I'll do my part as long as they're also cutting
spending and not making it worse.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
So a couple of things on that ross, right, Like,
So one of the things that's been around for a
long time. People are talking about some of these budget
based in Washington, they bring up taxes, is they a
lot of people like to say and bemoan sort of
on the Republicans out of the aisles, like there's this
no new taxes pledge, right like that that's been out
there for a while, but people can't talk about taxes
all the Republican set. Well, guess what, there's a pledge
(10:09):
on the Democratic side now too, and it's been out
there for a little while. And that pledge is that
they're not going to talk about raising taxes for anyone
below four hundred thousand dollars a year. That pledge has
been out there that by administration put that out. Vice
President Harris is basically not stuck to that as well.
And look, as a fiscal responsibility, if we obviously don't
like those things, we don't think that you should be
(10:30):
tying your hands, okay when you have such a troubling
fiscal situation. And look, I get that four hundred thousand
dollars might not get you as far relatively speaking in
different parts of the country, etc. But it's still four
hundred thousand dollars okay. And they basically have put that
pledge out there right as a way limiting that.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So there's this pledge out there.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
You're kind of alluding to a little bit ross that
kind of gets at this very point, And yeah, you
are correct, right, Look, there are probably ways that are
going to be on the table should be on the tables.
See where you're going to generate some more revenue from
people at the wealthy under ex spectrum, But there is
not enough money there, right, And you're saying to deal
with the revenue side of.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
This in a comprehensive way.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
At the same time, what you often hear, right is
from the Democratic side of the so to speak, is
a lot of times those higher revenues that they want
to say, are you being used to finance new programs,
right or new to initiatives, not necessarily to use it
to deal with an already troubling fiscal situation.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
So, I think there's there's a couple of things there,
I think, but I think you are basically spot on
the very politically difficult point is that the reality here
is if you're going to deal with this over the
long term, revenues below those that pledge line, we're probably.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Going to have to be on the table.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
We're talking with Mike Murphy, who is senior vice president
and chief of staff at the Committee for a Responsible
Federal Budget CRFB dot org.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Uh Okay, do two things with me real quick, and
then and then we'll go. Uh So.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Donald Trump's biggest failure as a president on domestic policy
was his lack of care for debt and deficit, and
many Republicans who used to pretend to care about debt
and deficit hid behind Donald Trump's skirts when he was
president and just spent like Democrats and.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Donald Trump himself.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
You know, when we dropped all this insane helicopter money
into the economy, he wanted to spend more. So Donald
Trump is as bad as you could ever imagine a
Republican being on this issue.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
How should we expect that anything.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Good will happen on this when our choices are Kamala
Harris and.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
A Republican who spends like a Democrat.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Well, ye, you're raised a good point. Ross has no
doubt about what you're saying in terms of the fact
that if you examined the records here, President Trump when
he was in office worsened our fiscal situation. There's no
doubt about that, through a combination on the tax cuts
and spending side, and certainly based on what he's putting
fur from his campaign to date, not giving any indication
(13:03):
that that's going to change course, right, particularly when it
comes to it seems like on a weekly basis offering
new ideas that are just going to cost more and
more money. No taxes on social Security, no taxes on overtime,
no taxes on pick you're writing, right, and it just
keeps coming out. So that's definitely concerning. And on the
Harris side. They've said some things, try to do some
(13:24):
things where they're going to say they're going to try
and pay for some things. But as I said, they
are in a lot of cases, you know, having many
new initiatives but not enough to offset the cost and
then deal with the dead situation as well. So you're
right to be concerned. Here's where I'll give you hope.
I'll give you hope is that. Look, we work in Washington,
and believe it or not, well it does feel pretty
lonely to work in advancing fiscal responsibility. There are a
(13:47):
good number of members of Congress that are really trying
to do the right thing on this. There's a group
in the House called the Bipartisan Fiscal Form. It's headed
up by bipartisan members of Congress from both sides of
the aisle. Bill Hesinga from Michigan report Looking and Scott Peters,
a Democrat from California, and they are convening folks to
try to focus on these issues. And as I allude
(14:09):
to before, of us there are many action forcing moments
next year where.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Physicals is going to be on the table.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
But the point here is that I'm trying to make
is I get and sympathize with your point about where's
the leadership on this at the presidential level, and that's
critically important. I'm not trying to downplay that, but there
are leaders in Congress that are trying to focus on
this and we need people from the outside to recognize
that and do everything we can to support them and
doing so.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Mike Murphy, Senior VP with Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.
These guys do a lot of great work CRFB dot org.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
If you forget any of that, just.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Go to my website at Rosscominsky dot com. All of
this stuff is linked to there in today's blog. Thanks
for your time, Mike, great conversation.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
We'll have you back.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Thanks Ross, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
All right, glad to do it.
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
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