August 28, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode of In The Vet’s Office, board-certified veterinary nutritionist Dr. Valerie Parker joins Dr. Josie for an in-depth conversation about what to feed your pets. They tackle the hot topics – grain free diets, prescription diets, and the biggest mistakes pet parents are making on the pet food aisle. They also discuss whether a homemade/raw diet is better than traditional kibble – you may be surprised at the answer! Dr. Josie debunks the myth that veterinarians get kickbacks to sell you specific food brands. In the intro to the interview, Dr. Josie shares her "Case of the Week" – a man who brought his dog in for having ‘cancerous bumps’ all over its belly which turned out to be something ENTIRELY different. After the interview, Dr. Josie and Shannon wrap up the episode with PAW & ORDER where Dr. Josie details things she’d never do with her own pets including NOT getting your dog’s anal glands expressed unless they truly need it!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to in the Vets Office with doctor Josie Horshak.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, everyone, welcome to in the Vets Office. This is
your host, doctor Josie and my friend Shannon Ella is
here again today.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Thanks so much for let me be a part of this.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
And I'm so excited to find out what the case
of the week is this week, because I feel like
you have such interesting cases that we would just never
know happen in a vet's office.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I know it's great. We honestly deserve our own reality show.
This is one of my favorite cases, and veterinarians out
there will tell you this is not that uncommon.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
But last week I had we'll call him Chad.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Chad brought in his dog and I saw the appointment
on my schedule earlier in the day and it was like, hey,
my dog has bumped all over her stomach. I'm really
worried that they're cancerous. And I'm like, oh, oh no, God,
here we go. I would have gone for allergies right
away they were bumps, but yeah, well, he's like they're
really firm, and I think they just came out of nowhere,
and I'm like, hey, this this could be really bad.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
So we're getting ready for it.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I get into the exam room and I'm doing my exam.
I'm looking all over her belly for these bumps and
I'm not finding anything. And I look at him and
he's like, no, no, they're right there. And I was like, oh, Chad, sweet,
sweet Chad, you mean her nipples.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
No.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
He was mortified. He turned bright red. Poor Chad, Poor Chad.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And he looked at me and he was like, so
you're telling me that I brought her all the way
in here to pay you money to tell me that
those are her nipples, And like, that's exactly what I'm
telling you.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Did you count make sure they were all there? Though?
Oh yeah, all the nips are there.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And he was like, so you're not going to tell
anyone about this, right, And I was like I yeah, absolutely.
Now I'm going to tell all of my nurses. We're
going to get a great belly laugh and like thanks
for coming so that we're featuring you on the podcast. Yet,
how old is the dog? Because I think she was
like two or three. Like she's a full bolen adult,
so she's had nipples forever.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Okay, So he just.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Note he turned her over and was like m when
did these come from? Because when I had my French bulldog, Boston,
when she was really young, I didn't know when I
was like very young getting a puppy, right, I didn't
know when to get her fixed and all that, right,
And she was a rescue and I had to get
her healthy first before I could take her in.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And she had her first cycle and that's a shock.
They don't tell you that if they go through their
first cycle that.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
All their nipples pop out. And so I was like,
is she pregnant? Did she get out with like some
other dog I don't know about, but I was. I
didn't take her into the vet and be like, what
are these? But right, I did go through something similar.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, it's after their first seat cycle. There nipples get
a lot bigger, Their hu ha gets bigger. Yep, maybe
had a big one for her whole life. It can
be shocking, to say the least, but at least you note.
I mean, I was like, how has it been two
to three years? I'm not shaming you. I will never
shame a pet owner and this is a judge free zone.
But yeah, it gave me a good laugh for sure.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Yeah, I bet You're like, well she's healthy. Yeah, yeah, nipples,
She's good to go.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
This is normal, no cancer, and she's going to live
a beautiful life. I love that, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Okay, next up we are going to do some audience
Q and a's. We had some audience and listeners call
in and leave voicemails, so we're going to play them
and then we'll get to answering them.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Awesome, Doctor Josie, my vet told me my dog was
getting fat?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
How much should I be feeding him?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
That's sad.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I feel like so much of my day is spent
talking to owners about their pets weight, and I feel
like we're body shaming these pets. I was just going
to say that I feel like fat is not the
right word. No, a little overweight, like a little round, ye,
a little bit of a muffin top. Yeah, everybody goes
through it, even in your pet exactly. But that's a
great question, how much should I be feeding my pet?
And that is very specific to the pet itself. What
(03:46):
I would recommend doing is I would talk to your imaginarian.
We have an exact calculation where we can come up
with exactly how many calories per day your pet should
be eating in order to get to that goal body weight.
What I see a lot of owners do is they
will feed the amount that's on the back of the bag.
And this is like far and away the biggest no.
Now really, Yes, when they're puppies, great, follow the back
(04:08):
of the bag, but when they're full blown adults, like
once they hit a year of age and they're on
adult food, following the back.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Of the bag will always tell you to overfeed.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And my theory is that it's probably because the pet
food companies want to sell more dog food, right, I.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Never thought about that, yas Phoebe when she would get
the back of the bag measurement, she was a little plump.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Uh huh yeah. Yeah, they definitely tell you to overfeed.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And then another really great tip is getting an actual
measuring cup, so you're measuring exactly how many cups you're feeding.
I'll ask people like, hey, how much are you feeding?
And like a cup, I'm like, well, what's your cup
look like? And it's like a solo cup or like
a beer bot, like a beer sign, Like, that's not
a cup. So actually measure out how much you're feeding.
You can see on the back of the bag how
many calories per cup there are, and ask your maginery
(04:53):
and specifically how many calories your pet should be eating.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
That would be my recommendation.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
You might have to cut the Peppe puppy back a
little bit on that, because I mean that's a common thing.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I think.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Even right now, I'm gonna admit, like our dogs at home,
I just am like, wh yeah, yeah, so she's probably overfit.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah no, it's hard. It's so hard. And we like
bond with them by giving them treats. When I leave
the house, I like to give them. I call them crunchies,
like little snacks. So you'd be shocked to a lot
of the treats have a ton of calories in them.
So check the treats you're giving. Look at that calorie count.
And I do have a little chunker at home myself,
(05:30):
so instead of crunchies, he gets carrots.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
But do you know our crunchies sot and a healthier option. Yes, yes,
we love a healthier option. So do we have another question?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
We do?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Number two? Hi, doctor Josie.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So my dog will occasionally skip a meal and it
really stresses me out.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Do you think this is something I should be worried about?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
That's a good question. We I always say, it's kind
of like humans. Like, if you put ten pizzas in
front of me, I'm going to eat every single slice
of all ten.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
I can eat more than a full grown man.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Now, if you put ten pizzas in front of my
best friends, she's gonna have like maybe one or two
slice and be fine. So our pets are the same way,
like some have our grazers, they have self control and
they may miss a meal from time to time if
they're a normal body weight, so their body conditions score
is normal. You can ask your vet if they think
that's the case, and they miss a meal here or there,
it is not the end of the world. They all
(06:24):
don't have to be like the labs and the Golden
Retrievers that like scarf down their food in one fell swoop.
So yeah, I hear it from my doodle owners. The
small ones usually like the little white fluffy dogs, they
will miss a meal here and there, and I don't
get too worked up about it.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, I mean our bigger dog, she like you put
five bowls of food in front of her, She's gonna
eat every single one. That's a girl after my own heart.
Yeah you too, would get.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Along well, but she's so active.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Even in doing that, she would be fit looking, whereas
Phoebe when she was younger. I used to open feed her,
which I feel like is probably a no no, You're
like a pin on the doll, like no, shitn't. But
she would never overreach. She would just eat when she
was hungry and like walk away from the bowl. But
when she got older and her weight started to you know,
but she would skip meals too.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And I did the exact same thing. I went to
my vet. I was like, she's not eating and she's sick,
and she's like, she probably just isn't hungry.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, they're all different and they
can graze and that is it's okay if that's.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Their normal, as long as there a normal body weight. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So no, And these questions are great becausey're going to
kind of lead us into the theme of today's episode,
which is really centered around what should I feed my pet?
I have said it once, I'll say it again. This
is the most calmon question I get asked as a veterinarian,
And gosh, the pet food industry is just out of control.
If I'm being totally honest, you go down the pet
(07:45):
food aisle and you can really get overwhelmed by the marketing.
You can see grain free, gluten free organics, and beautiful
packaging to very simple packaging, and it can be really
confusing and really complicated and trying to figure out what
exactly should i've my pet and what is best for it.
So we brought in the big guns. We've got doctor
Parker coming in for an interview. She's really an expert
(08:07):
in the field to kind of help us get down
into the nitty gritty of what defeat our animals.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Awesome, Well, I cannot wait to learn because I feel
like she is the best person we could brand to
add all this information out about truly.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, So on today's episode, I am so excited about
our guest. We have doctor Valerie Parker here, who I'm
sure many of you do not know, but in the
veterinary world, she is what I like to think is
a certified badass. She not only got her DVM so
her doctorate and VetMed, but she then went on to
do an internship at a really reputable hospital in New
(08:45):
York City and then got her board certification in internal medicine,
and then it went on to get double boarded in
clinical nutrition at Tufts University, so that's pretty amazing. There
are not many veterinarians that are double boarded, so she's
definitely an expert, if you will. And another really cool
(09:05):
thing is that she's a professor at the Ohio State
University College of VetMed, which is where I went to school,
my alma mater, and she was a one of my
professors while I was there, and I definitely know how
smart she is. So we're really lucky to have you
here today. Welcome to in the VETS office.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Today's episode is all around what owners should feed their pets,
and as a general practitioner, this is, without a doubt
the number one question that I get asked, and so
I thought, who better to help me kind of navigate
through all of the information and misinformation that's out there
about what to feed your pets than you. So I'm
really really happy you're here today. One thing that I
(09:43):
think is really interesting, and I'd like for you to
maybe elaborate on a little bit, is there's so many
people out there. It could be someone that works in
a pet store, it could be a breeder, it can
be your cousin's best friend's uncle that federaw diet once
and had great success. Like people love to call themselves
pet nutrition experts, and so do you mind just elaborating
on what it means to be a board certified veterinary nutritionist.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So there are a couple of definitions of nutritionists that
I would consider, especially when we talk about wanting there
to be at least one full time nutritionist on staff
at various pet food companies. And so I'm going to
be looking for somebody who either is board certified in nutrition,
(10:26):
and that means somebody who is a veterinarian and she
then went on and bought additional training and specialty certifications.
Typical nutrition residencies are at least two years, some of
them are three years, and they're usually done after either
an internship or several years in practice. You can also
have a PhD in nutrition with or without being a veterinarian.
(10:49):
So you don't want to discount the knowledge that a
PhD nutritionist can have because there are so many different
types of animals, different species, and every species it's all
nutritional needs. You ideally, when you're talking about looking for
nutritionists for dog and cat nutrition want to have somebody
who is a specialist in the field of canine and
(11:12):
seline nutrition. So once again, either a veterinarian with board
certification in nutrition or someone with a PhD in canine
and seline nutrition.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I just think that's so important for listeners to hear
because it is hard Like if I was the lame
woman and I wasn't a veterinarian, I would have a
really hard time. It's hard to know like who can
you trust and what is a reliable source, And so
looking for those people with those credentials is so important
when you're taking in that advice on what to feed
your animals.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Absolutely, and as.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
A regular regular GP vet, I you know, we know enough.
We go through four years of VET school. We understand
the basics. We have professors like doctor Parker that are
there to teach us along the way. But there are
certain circumstances in which we're like, hey, we really need
to consult with a board certify veterinary nutritionists. And one
of those prime examples is when owners want to do
(12:04):
a homemade diet. There is such a spectrum, I feel like,
of what owners want to feed their pets. We've got
some people that are going to tractor Supply and they're
getting the peer and a puppy chow, And there's others that.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Are, you know, they want to feed filet mignon every night.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So the ones that do want to feed a homemade diet,
where do you recommend they start? What are some like
staple advice you would give them.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I think that's a good question, and I think it
can be very challenging for people to know what to
do to feed their pets, especially when they're interested in
home cooking. So I like to just remind people that
there are very few instances where it's inherently medically better
for the pet to be receiving a home cooked diet.
There are certain situations where I do feel like it's warranted,
(12:48):
and that's if I can't meet the nutritional goals and
achieve the new trends that I'm trying to achieve with
a commercial diet. But it's few and far between where
I truly think that I have to feed a home
cooked diet to do what's best for the pet.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So dogs and cats that are perfectly healthy, no underlying
health conditions, they typically they don't need to be on
a homemade diet most of the time, but there are
some owners that want to do it anyways, right.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So when you have an owner who really wants to
feed a home cooked diet, it is absolutely imperative that
it is done correctly because I have also seen far
too many instances of long term improper nutrition being said
and some of the adverse outcomes that we can see,
and this is especially truly the young growing animals. These
(13:37):
guys are far more susceptible to really horrendous potential adverse effects.
Where we can see bony changes, we can see multiple fractures,
we can see neurologic compromise, and so I really do
encourage any owner of a young animal to feed a
fully balanced commercial diet until the animal is fully grown.
(14:01):
And then we can circle back and I'm still going
to get to how to answer your question, but I'm
really emphasizing that it's so important that animals get complete
and balanced nutrition. And most recipes that people will find
online in books, even recipes written by veterinarians, are very
infrequently complete and balanced, so that means they are more
(14:23):
commonly deficient in one or more nutrients, and so to
do a home cooked diet right means to follow, usually
a very specific recipe that is formulated by a board
certified veterinary nutritionist, with a minimum some amount of protein,
(14:44):
some amount of fat to meet the animals essential faty acids. Now,
carbohydrates are not required by dogs sometounts, but often we
like to use carbohydrates sources to keep the fat and
protein a little bit more modest so that it's not
super duper high in protein or super duper high in fat,
(15:06):
and of a source of fiber, so a lot of
pets will do better with their GI helps to have
some fiber in their diet. And then beyond those macro nutrients,
you need to ensure that it's providing the essential micronutrients.
So that's all the vitamins and minerals, all the amino acids.
Even that's part of what we're trying to achieve with
(15:26):
certain proteins. But depending on what ingredients we're using, we
might need to supplement various different micronutrients and sometimes even
amino acids to get all the nutrients of a dogger petnet.
And those multi vitamin and multimineral supplements need to be
very specific products, so you can't just say use a
(15:50):
multi vitamin because if you've ever been in a health
food store, you know how variable the multi vitamins out
there are for people. And since dogs and cats have
their own mutaret needs that are different from what people need,
it is infrequent to never that a human multivitamin will
achieve everything I need for a dog or a cat.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
One thing that is new in the food industry, I
guess I wouldn't say new, like maybe the last decade
or so is pet food products are becoming more like
going towards.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
The fresh fresh diets.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So it's kind of I'm seeing it as like a
in between where people are like, Okay, I don't want
to go through making a homemade diet, but I also
don't want to feed kibble. So now we've got products
like Nomnam and Farmer's Dog, and what are your thoughts
on those, and do you have a brand that you
would recommend?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You're right, they do. You sort of serve as a
middle ground. I think of those of being very similar
in and steptually to home cooked diet, but for the
people who don't necessarily want to take the time to
do the preparation, and theoretically these sets are meant to
provide complete and balanced nutrition on their own so that
(17:11):
you don't need to worry about adding in any additional nutrients.
As far as I know, many of those companies do
employ veterinary nutritionists, whether it be full time or on
a consulting basis. But I will also say that these companies,
with all their different recipes, can have pretty different nutrient profiles.
(17:32):
And so it's not just about saying I'm going to
feed a pork based diet. It's about saying, you know,
based on the recipe I choose the product I choose,
this is the nutrient profile that I am aiming to achieve.
So you know, I recommend some of those diet options
for people who want that stile of food. I once
(17:55):
again don't think they're better in most cases than any
other commercial care or can diet, but I do hear
from clients that that's what they want to feed, and
so you just need to be aware of the individual
animal it's nutritional needs and then which diet or diet
will meet that that animals need.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And I think you hit it on the head. I
know my clients would do anything for their animals. They
approve all of the diagnostics, they are willing to go
the distance, and they definitely want to feed their dogs
and cats the best food out there. And so I
think there's like this feeling that if it's homemade, if
it's fresh, if it doesn't look like kibble, if it
doesn't have you know, if there's no kibble, that it's
a better diet, and they're willing to spend more on it.
(18:36):
But the reality is that they're going to end up
probably spending more money and getting a diet that is
just as or maybe not even as good as a
well balanced kibble. And so, why do you think there's
such a misconception about kibble, Like where do you think
that came from? Is it the way it looks that
the process behind it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I mean, I think there are a lot of factors
that influence people's thoughts about it, and I think there's
just some inherent thought that the less process to food
is the healthier it is. And there's probably some truth
to that, right there are some veterinarians, including some veterinary nutritionists,
who feel very strongly that's fresh is better than kibble
because of I'm going to get a little technical here,
(19:20):
and I don't want to goat too deep in the woods.
But you know, cooking foods under high heat, under high
pressure does potentially increase the production of advanced location end products.
I don't really want to get too deep in the
woods here there, right, So I don't want to go there.
But you know, I think that there's there's potentially some
(19:42):
validity to feeding less processed food is healthier. But what
we don't have is any good study comparing kibble to
fresh food long term, and that's what we really need
to say that it is better. Otherwise it's just based
on theory and people's you know, emotions and personal opinions
at this point. And so I would love to see
some long term studies comparing that, but I don't know
(20:03):
who's going to fund that. Yeah, well, you know, I
think I think people also answer fomorphize their pets. Yes,
they don't want to eat the same thing every day,
day in, day out. They want variety, So they think
their pets want variety. But we've all had pets who
will happily eat the same food every day, twice a
day for ten years and never complain. So I don't
(20:26):
think pets necessarily, I don't think healthy pets care as
much for the same variety as a human does.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, so I feed my dog's kibble. I'm assuming you
feed your dogs kibble. One thing that always kills me
this is I'm going down a rabbit hole here, is
that a lot of people have the misconception that veterinarians
get kickbacks from recommending kibble lines.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
And I'm just here to.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
State the record for the record that we do not
get kickbacks from the food companies. The foods that I
recommend are ones that I know have a board certified
nutritious nutritionists on hand. They're ASCO approved, which we can
kind of talk about, and I get absolutely no kick
back whatsoever. That would be awesome if I did, but
I don't, so, and I'm assuming you don't either.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
I don't, But I also do want to touch on
something you said. I think it's a really common misconception.
There is no such thing as an ask go approval. Okay.
So ASCO is the Association of American Feet Control Officials.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
They are an organization that sets recommendations and requirements for
nutrients amounts or adult canine and fealying maintenance and growing
canine and sealine puppies get in growing needs as well
as gestation lactation needs. They set recommendations to requirements for
(21:45):
healthy pets, and by law, there has to be an
ASCO statement on every pet student that is marketed in
the United States. The ASCO statement is meant to say
three things. It's meant to site if the diet should
be providing complete and balanced nutrition for which life stage
or stages, and how it was determined that it provides
(22:08):
complete and violenced antrition, So meaning a diet could be
complete and balance based on formulations. If you enter all
the ingredients and the nutrient analysis of all of those
ingredients into a computer spreadsheet and analyze it, and the
computer spits out a profile that says this is how
(22:28):
much of every nutrients in the diet, then it's been
formulated to mat meats versus. You can do an active
seeding test, which has very very very specific, precise legal standards,
and beat a certain number of dogs or cats a
diet for a certain amount of time with predetermined criteria
of monitoring before, during, and after the trial, and as
(22:50):
long as certain criteria are met, you can say that
it was that the diet provides complete and volunce nutrition
of determined via seeding tests, but not regulate pet food
ASCO does not stamp an approval or a reduction, right.
There are other organizations that do that, but realistically, there
(23:10):
are far too many pets food companies in the United
States for the government to pay attention to every single one, right, right,
So they're not going to probably, really it's not a medication.
It's not you know, it's dog and pet foods do
not have to go through an approval process to be
(23:31):
marketed and sold. Now, if enough animals are getting sick,
if enough people are reporting to the FTI concerned with
a pet food, they might investigate it. But you can
imagine how many reports would need to be put in
before they have the time and personal out to be
(23:52):
able to investigate, you know, a small or even a
large pet food company. Right. So I think most really
commonly amiss conception that if you see an ask a statement,
it means it's been asked to approved, But ask if
statements are required to be there by law, and they
don't tell you for sure if it's a good, reputable brand.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So are we throwing that as something that we don't
care anymore that it's on the label or on the
bag when you're choosing a kibble.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So not exactly, it's hopefully that's not what just came across.
They have to have enough, right right. Statement should be
able to tell you if you want to feed it
to only some extent. It's not the end all be all.
It should tell you if it's complete mount because the
alternative saying it's complete mounce is it might say intended
for intermittent or trusclemental feeding only.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I see.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So you want to really get into the nitty gritty
of the AFCO statement, right, Okay, And.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Again, it's not better or worse if it had feeding
trials or formulad to meet. There are pros and cons
to both of those approaches that I'm not going to
probably have the time to go into episodes, but you know,
we can circle back to that at a later date.
The most important thing, and I was just speaking at
VMX earlier this week and I showed an example is
(25:10):
you could have two diets from the same company with
almost the same name. So I'm going to just use
a very specific example because I just have this in
a PowerPoint. Wellness Core Shreds Okay, Wellness cat Food Core Shruds,
two products in pouches, both called wellness core shrubs. One
complete and balanced, the other is intermittent or supplemental feeding
(25:34):
only to be used as a topper. So we have
all these products out there intermixed on the shelves. Some
are meant to be complete and balanced. Some look very
similar but are not meant to be complete and balanced.
And if they're not meant to be complete and balanced,
you want any calories from foods that are not complete
and balanced. So treats, toppers, medication administration, foods, supplements, raw hides, dentitude,
(25:59):
any saying that that animal is getting in a day
that's not complete and balance. He wants that to make
up no more than about ten per months of the
total daily in type. So depending on the size of
the animal and the number of calories they're eating, that
could be as little as twenty twenty five calories a day,
might be upwards of one to two hundred calories per day,
depending on the size of the animal and their individual
in our chating.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Gosh, Okay, see now I'm still learning from you. I
graduated seven years ago and I'm still learning from you.
That's amazing. So I know, yes, I know from learning
that AFCO, of course is important. We want to make
sure it's on there. But I think the big takeaway
is like, let's look at the nitty gritty of what
the recommendation is, because for example, like toppers like Stella
and Chewy, I'm sure that that is not for everyday use,
(26:41):
and people could be using it to feed every single meal,
like as the main portion of the meal, and that's
not what it's intended for.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
So once again, even within that company as an example,
they make different styles, right, so they'll make they'll make
some things but are complete and balance, and they'll make
something only meant to be given intermittent as topper. That's
one of the only things that that Asko statement is
kind of good for us to fight. Is this meant
(27:07):
to be complete and balanced or not.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
The other big topic right now in kibble is grain
free foods, and I think for a long time a
lot of people thought, okay, less by product, there's less grains,
Like dogs really need to be eating more protein and
same with cats. And if we're avoiding grains, like this
must be a better food. And we now know that
grain free foods are linked to heart disease in our
(27:31):
pets and I still get clients that are inclined to
buy it for whatever reason. I know some people feel
like their pets have grain allergies. I guess how common
is it for a pet to have a grain allergy?
And what are your thoughts just surrounding grain free foods?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
This is a hot topic. I agree, I think grain
allergies are pretty uncommon. Wheat is technically reportedly an allergen.
I don't know that I have ever definitively seen a
dog or a cat be allergic to wheat. Technically, and again,
people sometimes want to talk about gluten in there, and
(28:06):
technically Irish butters can have a predisposition to with gluten intolerance.
But for the most part, most food allergies are going
to be to the proteins most commonly, I would say
probably chicken, beef, dairy, and fish. I've never been a
(28:27):
proponent of saying grain free is better, but I also
am not willing to say grain free is that. And
that's because not all grain free diets are the same.
So when we think about the link between shortain types
of diets and dilated cardiomiopathy, it is important to remember
that there is not a definitive black and white pause
of that relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I'm going to inject it for just a second. Dilated
cardiomyopathy is the heart disease that has been linked to
grain free foods.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We can call it DCM to keep it simple.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Great, So, there are a lot of different diet types
in the past that has been linked to DCM in
dots and cats. So historically, way back in the day,
like any touring deficient diet has been linked to DCM
and cats, which is why now touring is you know,
in everything, and torain isn't essential, I mean acid for cats.
(29:18):
Unlike dots in the nineties, lamb and rice diets were
a really big issue with being linked to DCM in dots,
and Newfoundland were one of the more commonly reported breeds
in the nineties. So fast forward thirty years now we're
in the you know, two thousand, teens and twenties, and
(29:40):
now we've got these diets that are being linked to
d CM. Not just screen free, but many of these
diets specifically very high in pulse ingredients peas, lentils, chickspeas beans,
because technically potato based diet grains free. And I think
(30:02):
that many veterinarians are still comfortable recommending potato based, selected
limited ingredient protein diets for their pets. So we have
to be really careful. We can't have it both ways.
We can't cite grains free diets are bad and then
turn around and recommend DD or selected protein to our
for their allergic pets. Right, So we can't have both ways.
(30:24):
What I am doing me personally, and this is not
one hundred percent black and white. If I am telling
people that we're going to consider this on a case
by case basis, We're going to think about if there's
a strong reason that you feel that we need to
try to feed a green free diet to your pet,
we're going to think about predisposing risks for DCM in
(30:45):
that pet. Once again, in the nineties, new fees were
highly pre disposed. Currently, goldens tend to be one of
the higher predisposed breeds now, not just because golden owners
are far more aware of it and they're getting their
box checked. Yeah, probably that has something to do with
it because many of the dogs, well right now, all
the dogs that are developing this. There is no simple
(31:06):
blood screening test. You can't just measure a touring and
say if it's normally your dog doesn't have DCM because unfortunately,
in the nineties with lamb and rice, they were almost
all touring deficient, and now a lot of them are
not deficient in touring. And we don't know what's causing
the DCM. We don't know if it's a nutrient and efficiency,
we don't know if it's a toxicity. And so I
(31:29):
am for the most part avoiding diets that are very
high in peas, lentsiles on other pulse ingredients. I am
not as nervous using potato based diets, but I am
going to think about for every individual pet, is it
worth putting your dog on a completely grain inclusive diet,
because I do think there's a higher risk in your pet,
(31:51):
and I don't feel like the benefits that way the risks.
So I'm not willing Again, I'm not willing to say
you should never feed a grain free diet to it dog,
but I am looking more closely at what ingredients are
in the diet and making sure that it's not a
lower protein diet. Also, vegetarian diets have been linked to
(32:12):
DCM and dogs, so again I want it to be
providing adequate protein, providing adequate amino acids and not too
too high in certain pulse ingredients.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
What cable do you feed your dog? Are there like
kibble brands that you really or you're like, these are
the kibble brands I recommend.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So I have two cats and they're both allergic disaster.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
The cats or cats? I always think dogs. The cats.
We love the cats.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, they're both allergic disasters. They're both on different hydrolyzed
diots because one of my cats wants to be obase
and I won't let her, so she gets a lower
calorie but also higher fiber hydrolized and.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
One of them I feel that I feel that deeply prone.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Towards being on the slimmer side. And again they have
different allergic issu you. So for whatever, it's where they
both get different hydrolyzed sites, and when I tried switching
them to be on the same one, they retect today,
I mean, and so generally speaking, you know, again, there
are certain criteria that I want to consider when when
choosing pet foods. There are a list there's a list
(33:16):
of really nice questions that you can find from the WSABA,
the World Small Animal Veterinary Association. They have some really
nice handouts online on their toolkit website taps on how
to select a pet food questions to consider asking pet
food manufacturers, but I'm looking for companies that do have
(33:37):
at least one full time for certified nutritionists on staff
and or PhDs and nutrition I'm ideally looking for companies
that will provide complete nutrient profiles for all their products,
that do research and development, that have excellent quality control standards.
And some of these things are nice to say and
maybe harder to verify, but there are certain questions that
(34:00):
you can call and ask pet food manufacturers to answer
for you if you want. I do regularly use products
like Hills rocanean karina, but I have learned how to
be far more flexible over the years of my career
here because I know that those products are not going
(34:21):
to be acceptable for all pet owners. So I am
very willing to look into other options and make other
recommendations based on what the individual owner's preferences are, but
also again what that pet needs are. That's ultimately my
most important role here as a nutritionist is the site
What are the nutritional needs of this pet? And how
(34:43):
can I be those needs.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
One last main food fad that question for you, What
are your what's your hot take on raw diets? And
a lot of people are have friends or a mutual
acquaintance that has had a really good experience and then
they want to implement it, and my initial feeling is, oh, God,
don't do it. So I'm wondering what your what your
(35:20):
hot take is on raw diets?
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, I mean, I try really hard not to say
always or never, right right, So I will not say
I will never, and recommend is probably not even their word.
I don't regularly recommend raw, So I will say that
I do not recommend raw because of the potential risks
that are feeding claws. However, if I am working with
(35:45):
a client who is adamant about feeding cross I will
work with them because I would rather they feed a
complete and balanced, good raw diet and an unbalanced raw diet.
I have worked with the owners whose definition of a
raw diet it was, go to the supermarket, buy a
package of chicken wings, open up said package of chicken wings,
(36:05):
put it on the ground. That's my dog's food. Versus
there are complete and balanced, commercially available raw pet foods
on the market right well, and Chewi is one Instinct
is one, and you know I have I have had
the opportunity to talk to veterinarians who work at let's
say Instinct. They have a board certified veterinary contritionists on staff.
(36:29):
They check off a lot of the criteria you're looking for,
and you are looking for a reputable pet food company,
But you still have to decide what are the needs
of this pet. And there are risks of feeding froth,
there are risks of bacterial transplocations if it's not complete
and balanced producing nutrient and efficiencies that way. There are
(36:51):
risks to the people coming into contact with that pet
and whoever is coming into contact with the species of
that pet, if it is shutting any fatal or infectious disease.
And even if the pet doesn't show clinical science, it
can shed bacteria, it can shed pominilla. I just think that,
you know, you have to prioritize what's the most important thing,
(37:14):
And for me, the most important thing for the nutrition
of any pet I'm seeing is that it gets all
the nutrients that need, whether that be a kibble diet,
a fresh diet, a home cook diet, a raw diet.
My biggest priority for every single pet I see is
that it's getting the nutrients and the nutrition that it needs.
(37:34):
And beyond that, my individual goals are going to vary
based on the pets. So I'm going to treat a
pet with kivy disease differently than I'm going to treat
a pet with gas or and festinal disease differently than
I'm going to treat And I'm going to treat under
a condition pets differently from over conditioned pets. And that's
why I don't like to just cite always or never,
(37:55):
but in this circumstance for this pet, this is what
we should be doing.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
So I think the big message from this episode is
there's no blanket statement when it comes to nutrition in
our pets. Each pet has their own individualized nutritional requirements,
and when owners are unsure or they're choosing a diet
to feed their animals, it's so important to work in
(38:23):
tandem with your veterinarian and as general practitioners, we can
make really good recommendations. And if your pet does have
like significant underlying disease and we're not really sure what
diet is best for them, we are more than happy
to consult with a veginary nutritionists refer out people even
like doctor Parker. You can set up a consultation with
her over the phone, and other nutritionists you offer that
(38:46):
service as well. Is there a good website where people
can go to find nutritionists to have those appointments.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yeah, so what was formerly known as the American College
of Veterinary Nutrition has merged with the ACBIM, the American
College of Veterinary Internal Medicine. So I'm not sure if
the website is still in flux, but previously I would
have referred people to the acv N directory the American
(39:15):
College of Veterinary Nutrition, and I think that website is
still up in it so you can search on there
for who's doing who offers consultations directly with pet owners.
It may very well probably will merge with the ACBIM,
but I don't actually know if that has happened yet
because this is a relatively new change.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Okay, well, stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
I'll keep my followers informed on how to get a
hold of you guys. But yeah, I just when thinking
about web foods to feed your pets, just making sure
you look for those credentials that we had talked about
previously and working with your vegineerian because it is, as
you can tell, a very complicated process and it's not
a one size fits all.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
So thank you so much for coming today.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I really appreciate your perspective and your expertise. I feel
very lucky to have had you here, and it was
very informative and I am still learning, so thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Thanks for having me, Susie.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
All Right, that was.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Such an awesome conversation with doctor Valerie Parker, and I
feel like we learned a lot and I feel like
it made me take notes and think a little bit
more thoroughly as far as what we are feeding our
dogs and cats at home. But I would love to
ask you, doctor Josie, what would be the key takeaways
for listeners that they should kind of highlight and implement
(40:35):
in their own day to day with their pets as
far as nutrition goes.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I would say the five main takeaway points from that
interview that I would take and that I recommend on
a daily basis are one, Feeding a homemade or fresh
food diet is not medically really any better than feeding kibble.
If you want to do that, great, we'll talk about it.
But feeding kibble is just as healthy as the alternatives.
(41:01):
And really the three kibble diets that I recommend on
a daily basis are going to be Purina, Proplan Royal Canaan,
and Hill's Science Diet.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Another big takeaway for me.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
You know, if you're like, Nope, I don't care, I'm
not feeding kibble, I want to do a homemade diet,
like all the more power to you. My big thing
would be be ready to spend a lot of time
in the kitchen cooking, and don't do it until they're
full grown. If they're a puppy or a kitten, get
them on a puppy or kitten kibble they really need
a specific amount of fat and protein. And then once
(41:30):
they're in adulthood you can kind of transition over to
that homemade diet. And of course, last we're not least
working with a veterinary nutritionists. When you're formulating these foods,
it can go very wrong. I have seen cases where
they have something called rickets, so their bones kind of
like turn into like gello. They almost look like they're
walking on rubber bands because they didn't get enough of
the proper nutrition. And so yeah, it can go really bad.
(41:52):
So definitely work with a veterinary nutritionist. Yeah, it really
makes a difference. Like I don't want to go too
far into it because you guys touched on those things.
But I had a French bulldog Boston, who have our
notorious for allergies, and I just would go to the
store or get a different food and be like, she'll
be fine. When I finally went into the VET, they
were like, let's do some allergy testing on her, and
we did, and we found out she was allergic to
(42:14):
animal proteins. So we switched her to the Royal Canin
hypoallergenic and it changed her life and she lived to
be like fourteen, and I swear to you it was
because of her diet. It can make a huge difference.
And you heard doctor Parker reference hydrolyzed protein diets, and
that's exactly what that is. It's making the protein and
the food so small that the pet can't develop an
(42:37):
allergic reaction to it because it can't detect the kind
of protein it's eating. Right, it sounds crazy like it's
made in a peatrine dish, but it is very healthy
and they do great on it long term. And really
that leads me to my next point, which is if
they're going to have an allergy to their food, it's
almost always to the protein.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
It is very rarely to grain.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So if you have a young or even adult healthy pet,
cat or dog out there, I would not freed a
grain free food, especially the diets that are substituting lentils
and peas and sweet potatoes and lieu of grains. Those
are the ones that are tied to heart disease in
our pets.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
Yeah see, and that's I think again, like French cheese
in Boston's in the past, like friends of mine that
I know that have them, they've ended up with heart problems.
And she never had any issue. I'm not saying it
was all based on her diet, but I know her
diet definitely helped her in a huge way. Her hair
coat was great, her body type was great, her breathing
was better because she was not having any allergy issues.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
So it can be really helpful.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
And then the last point is I personally, and I
would have to say I'm probably speaking for the majority
of veterinarians out there, we don't recommend feeding a raw diet.
I have just seen so many cases where pets are
coming in and they are really sick with GI disease.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Usually it's a bacterial infection.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
And then the risk of the humans getting sick in
the household is really high as well. A way, Yeah,
it's just it's not worth the risk. I know there's
a lot of like hoopla on the internet about it,
but I advise against it pretty strongly.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Yeah, lots of ads on my Instagram because I follow
a lot of pet yeah, like Instagram pages and stuff
like that, and I definitely wanted to try out some
of the raw diets several times because you just hear
how great they are.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
But I think the main thing is like talk to
your vet first and a nutritionist to make sure.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Because it's like people, there's so many options out there
right now, but it doesn't mean it's good for you, yeah,
just because it's good for other people.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
And those ads are so targeted, like we're like the
ultimate dog moms and they're like, oh, we're gonna get you.
And if I wasn't a vet, I would have no idea.
I would be buying like filet mignon raw from Tokyo,
like one hundred percent would do it. But I strongly
recommend not doing it and and there's a lot of
other great options.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
So okay, on.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Today's Paw and Order, we are going to discuss things
that I would never do as a vet Gerian surrounding grooming.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Okay, I would.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Never, ever, ever, ever get a doodle without securing that
grooming appointment beforehand. I cannot tell you how many doodles
come in looking scraggly and they are matted and they
are not happy. And so if you're getting a doodle,
just know like they are high maintenance. They are going
to require grooming every four to six weeks, eight weeks max.
(45:25):
And if you don't get them groomed, then they get
shaved down and they look like little naked mole rats.
They're not happy looking, and they're so embarrassed. They're like
cold shouldering their parents. So so yeah, if you got
a dude, make sure you get them groomed. It's kind
of like before you have a kid, secure a daycare exactly,
before you get a doodle, get a room exactly, and
they're hard to get ahold of these days. Okay, Next
(45:46):
on the docket, I would never get a dog with
floppy ears and not clean them out regularly. These are
the dogs that are going to be way more predisposed
to your infections. You got those long flaps covering that
tiny little ear canal, So clean them out on a
regular basis, and by regular I mean like every one
to two weeks.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
Okay, what's your recommended like specific for cleaning them out.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
So you're gonna take that flop ear flop it over
and you're going to actually pour the cleaning solution.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Into the ear canal.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Okay, yeah, oh yeah, like it's all up in there
and then they shake, it goes everywhere, gets in your eyes,
in your mouth, close your eyes and mouth for sure,
and then I just use a cotton ball to wipe.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Out the excess. Okay, all right, good to know.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Next on the docket, I would never have my dog's
anal glands expressed unless they need it. A lot of
people will go to the groomer and the groom will say, hey,
do you want me to express your dog's anal glands?
And I would be like, heck, yeah yeah, But if
they don't need it, I say, don't do it. So
ways you know if they need it are if they're
licking back there, if you smell that smell, you know
(46:49):
that smell. If we don't want to smell smell, I'm
like trying not to gag your smell in the entire universe,
I'm convinced. And if they're kind of like scooching their
butt on the floor, that's a signs that they probably
need them expressed.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
But the anal gland butt drag, the anal, it's really cute.
It's honestly, it's not good. It's gross.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
So if they're not showing you those signs, they're probably
expressing them on their own, and you don't need to
do it for them. And once we start, we usually
have to keep up with it.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
Gotcha, See I did not know that, all right? Good
to know.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
And then last but not least, I would not put
rubber bands and my dogs for I know, it's really
cute to like put ponytails on them, especially like those
little white fluffy guys, but I would do like clip
in bows. I would avoid rubber bands. I had a
patient somehow get the rubber band out of her pony,
her high pony, and it got wrapped around her little
paw and it cut off circulation to her paw and
(47:39):
she almost lost it.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
So elastic bands you guys.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
No elastic bands, clip and bows only, please and thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
This is I'm learning a lot. That's what we're here for.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
I've seen so many dogs lately on Instagram with those
little lass I'm all of them.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Now.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
I know we need to get We are the rubber
band vigilantes.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
We are.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Now, that's awesome. Well, I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
I feel like we covered a lot of ground today,
especially about diet and nutrition, very similar to people which
we're all trying to be healthier in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Definitely a lot of info, a lot of good info.
And if you guys have any follow up questions, feel
free to reach out to us specifically, you were welcome
to DM me on Instagram It's doctor Josi Vett and
then give us a like wherever you listen to your.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Podcast and subscribe. All right, we'll see you next time.
You're listening to in the Vets Office with doctor Josie Horshak.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, everyone, welcome to in the Vets Office. This is
your host, doctor Josie and my friend Shannon Ella is
here again today.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Thanks so much for let me be a part of this.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
And I'm so excited to find out what the case
of the week is this week, because I feel like
you have such interesting cases that we would just never
know happen in a vet's office.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I know it's great. We honestly deserve our own reality show.
This is one of my favorite cases, and veterinarians out
there will tell you this is not that uncommon.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
But last week I had we'll call him Chad.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Chad brought in his dog and I saw the appointment
on my schedule earlier in the day and it was like, hey,
my dog has bumped all over her stomach. I'm really
worried that they're cancerous. And I'm like, oh, oh no, God,
here we go. I would have gone for allergies right
away they were bumps, but yeah, well, he's like they're
really firm, and I think they just came out of nowhere,
and I'm like, hey, this this could be really bad.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
So we're getting ready for it.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I get into the exam room and I'm doing my exam.
I'm looking all over her belly for these bumps and
I'm not finding anything. And I look at him and
he's like, no, no, they're right there. And I was like, oh, Chad, sweet,
sweet Chad, you mean her nipples.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
No.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
He was mortified. He turned bright red. Poor Chad, Poor Chad.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And he looked at me and he was like, so
you're telling me that I brought her all the way
in here to pay you money to tell me that
those are her nipples, And like, that's exactly what I'm
telling you.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Did you count make sure they were all there? Though?
Oh yeah, all the nips are there.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And he was like, so you're not going to tell
anyone about this, right, And I was like I yeah, absolutely.
Now I'm going to tell all of my nurses. We're
going to get a great belly laugh and like thanks
for coming so that we're featuring you on the podcast. Yet,
how old is the dog? Because I think she was
like two or three. Like she's a full bolen adult,
so she's had nipples forever.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Okay, So he just.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Note he turned her over and was like m when
did these come from? Because when I had my French bulldog, Boston,
when she was really young, I didn't know when I
was like very young getting a puppy, right, I didn't
know when to get her fixed and all that, right,
And she was a rescue and I had to get
her healthy first before I could take her in.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And she had her first cycle and that's a shock.
They don't tell you that if they go through their
first cycle that.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
All their nipples pop out. And so I was like,
is she pregnant? Did she get out with like some
other dog I don't know about, but I was. I
didn't take her into the vet and be like, what
are these? But right, I did go through something similar.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, it's after their first seat cycle. There nipples get
a lot bigger, Their hu ha gets bigger. Yep, maybe
had a big one for her whole life. It can
be shocking, to say the least, but at least you note.
I mean, I was like, how has it been two
to three years? I'm not shaming you. I will never
shame a pet owner and this is a judge free zone.
But yeah, it gave me a good laugh for sure.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Yeah, I bet You're like, well she's healthy. Yeah, yeah, nipples,
She's good to go.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
This is normal, no cancer, and she's going to live
a beautiful life. I love that, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Okay, next up we are going to do some audience
Q and a's. We had some audience and listeners call
in and leave voicemails, so we're going to play them
and then we'll get to answering them.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Awesome, Doctor Josie, my vet told me my dog was
getting fat?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
How much should I be feeding him?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
That's sad.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I feel like so much of my day is spent
talking to owners about their pets weight, and I feel
like we're body shaming these pets. I was just going
to say that I feel like fat is not the
right word. No, a little overweight, like a little round, ye,
a little bit of a muffin top. Yeah, everybody goes
through it, even in your pet exactly. But that's a
great question, how much should I be feeding my pet?
And that is very specific to the pet itself. What
(03:46):
I would recommend doing is I would talk to your imaginarian.
We have an exact calculation where we can come up
with exactly how many calories per day your pet should
be eating in order to get to that goal body weight.
What I see a lot of owners do is they
will feed the amount that's on the back of the bag.
And this is like far and away the biggest no.
Now really, Yes, when they're puppies, great, follow the back
(04:08):
of the bag, but when they're full blown adults, like
once they hit a year of age and they're on
adult food, following the back.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Of the bag will always tell you to overfeed.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And my theory is that it's probably because the pet
food companies want to sell more dog food, right, I.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Never thought about that, yas Phoebe when she would get
the back of the bag measurement, she was a little plump.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Uh huh yeah. Yeah, they definitely tell you to overfeed.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And then another really great tip is getting an actual
measuring cup, so you're measuring exactly how many cups you're feeding.
I'll ask people like, hey, how much are you feeding?
And like a cup, I'm like, well, what's your cup
look like? And it's like a solo cup or like
a beer bot, like a beer sign, Like, that's not
a cup. So actually measure out how much you're feeding.
You can see on the back of the bag how
many calories per cup there are, and ask your maginery
(04:53):
and specifically how many calories your pet should be eating.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
That would be my recommendation.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
You might have to cut the Peppe puppy back a
little bit on that, because I mean that's a common thing.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I think.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Even right now, I'm gonna admit, like our dogs at home,
I just am like, wh yeah, yeah, so she's probably overfit.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah no, it's hard. It's so hard. And we like
bond with them by giving them treats. When I leave
the house, I like to give them. I call them crunchies,
like little snacks. So you'd be shocked to a lot
of the treats have a ton of calories in them.
So check the treats you're giving. Look at that calorie count.
And I do have a little chunker at home myself,
(05:30):
so instead of crunchies, he gets carrots.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
But do you know our crunchies sot and a healthier option. Yes, yes,
we love a healthier option. So do we have another question?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
We do?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Number two? Hi, doctor Josie.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So my dog will occasionally skip a meal and it
really stresses me out.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Do you think this is something I should be worried about?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
That's a good question. We I always say, it's kind
of like humans. Like, if you put ten pizzas in
front of me, I'm going to eat every single slice
of all ten.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
I can eat more than a full grown man.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Now, if you put ten pizzas in front of my
best friends, she's gonna have like maybe one or two
slice and be fine. So our pets are the same way,
like some have our grazers, they have self control and
they may miss a meal from time to time if
they're a normal body weight, so their body conditions score
is normal. You can ask your vet if they think
that's the case, and they miss a meal here or there,
it is not the end of the world. They all
(06:24):
don't have to be like the labs and the Golden
Retrievers that like scarf down their food in one fell swoop.
So yeah, I hear it from my doodle owners. The
small ones usually like the little white fluffy dogs, they
will miss a meal here and there, and I don't
get too worked up about it.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, I mean our bigger dog, she like you put
five bowls of food in front of her, She's gonna
eat every single one. That's a girl after my own heart.
Yeah you too, would get.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Along well, but she's so active.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Even in doing that, she would be fit looking, whereas
Phoebe when she was younger. I used to open feed her,
which I feel like is probably a no no, You're
like a pin on the doll, like no, shitn't. But
she would never overreach. She would just eat when she
was hungry and like walk away from the bowl. But
when she got older and her weight started to you know,
but she would skip meals too.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And I did the exact same thing. I went to
my vet. I was like, she's not eating and she's sick,
and she's like, she probably just isn't hungry.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, they're all different and they
can graze and that is it's okay if that's.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Their normal, as long as there a normal body weight. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So no, And these questions are great becausey're going to
kind of lead us into the theme of today's episode,
which is really centered around what should I feed my pet?
I have said it once, I'll say it again. This
is the most calmon question I get asked as a veterinarian,
And gosh, the pet food industry is just out of control.
If I'm being totally honest, you go down the pet
(07:45):
food aisle and you can really get overwhelmed by the marketing.
You can see grain free, gluten free organics, and beautiful
packaging to very simple packaging, and it can be really
confusing and really complicated and trying to figure out what
exactly should i've my pet and what is best for it.
So we brought in the big guns. We've got doctor
Parker coming in for an interview. She's really an expert
(08:07):
in the field to kind of help us get down
into the nitty gritty of what defeat our animals.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Awesome, Well, I cannot wait to learn because I feel
like she is the best person we could brand to
add all this information out about truly.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, So on today's episode, I am so excited about
our guest. We have doctor Valerie Parker here, who I'm
sure many of you do not know, but in the
veterinary world, she is what I like to think is
a certified badass. She not only got her DVM so
her doctorate and VetMed, but she then went on to
do an internship at a really reputable hospital in New
(08:45):
York City and then got her board certification in internal medicine,
and then it went on to get double boarded in
clinical nutrition at Tufts University, so that's pretty amazing. There
are not many veterinarians that are double boarded, so she's
definitely an expert, if you will. And another really cool
(09:05):
thing is that she's a professor at the Ohio State
University College of VetMed, which is where I went to school,
my alma mater, and she was a one of my
professors while I was there, and I definitely know how
smart she is. So we're really lucky to have you
here today. Welcome to in the VETS office.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Today's episode is all around what owners should feed their pets,
and as a general practitioner, this is, without a doubt
the number one question that I get asked, and so
I thought, who better to help me kind of navigate
through all of the information and misinformation that's out there
about what to feed your pets than you. So I'm
really really happy you're here today. One thing that I
(09:43):
think is really interesting, and I'd like for you to
maybe elaborate on a little bit, is there's so many
people out there. It could be someone that works in
a pet store, it could be a breeder, it can
be your cousin's best friend's uncle that federaw diet once
and had great success. Like people love to call themselves
pet nutrition experts, and so do you mind just elaborating
on what it means to be a board certified veterinary nutritionist.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So there are a couple of definitions of nutritionists that
I would consider, especially when we talk about wanting there
to be at least one full time nutritionist on staff
at various pet food companies. And so I'm going to
be looking for somebody who either is board certified in nutrition,
(10:26):
and that means somebody who is a veterinarian and she
then went on and bought additional training and specialty certifications.
Typical nutrition residencies are at least two years, some of
them are three years, and they're usually done after either
an internship or several years in practice. You can also
have a PhD in nutrition with or without being a veterinarian.
(10:49):
So you don't want to discount the knowledge that a
PhD nutritionist can have because there are so many different
types of animals, different species, and every species it's all
nutritional needs. You ideally, when you're talking about looking for
nutritionists for dog and cat nutrition want to have somebody
who is a specialist in the field of canine and
(11:12):
seline nutrition. So once again, either a veterinarian with board
certification in nutrition or someone with a PhD in canine
and seline nutrition.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I just think that's so important for listeners to hear
because it is hard Like if I was the lame
woman and I wasn't a veterinarian, I would have a
really hard time. It's hard to know like who can
you trust and what is a reliable source, And so
looking for those people with those credentials is so important
when you're taking in that advice on what to feed
your animals.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Absolutely, and as.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
A regular regular GP vet, I you know, we know enough.
We go through four years of VET school. We understand
the basics. We have professors like doctor Parker that are
there to teach us along the way. But there are
certain circumstances in which we're like, hey, we really need
to consult with a board certify veterinary nutritionists. And one
of those prime examples is when owners want to do
(12:04):
a homemade diet. There is such a spectrum, I feel like,
of what owners want to feed their pets. We've got
some people that are going to tractor Supply and they're
getting the peer and a puppy chow, And there's others that.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Are, you know, they want to feed filet mignon every night.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So the ones that do want to feed a homemade diet,
where do you recommend they start? What are some like
staple advice you would give them.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I think that's a good question, and I think it
can be very challenging for people to know what to
do to feed their pets, especially when they're interested in
home cooking. So I like to just remind people that
there are very few instances where it's inherently medically better
for the pet to be receiving a home cooked diet.
There are certain situations where I do feel like it's warranted,
(12:48):
and that's if I can't meet the nutritional goals and
achieve the new trends that I'm trying to achieve with
a commercial diet. But it's few and far between where
I truly think that I have to feed a home
cooked diet to do what's best for the pet.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So dogs and cats that are perfectly healthy, no underlying
health conditions, they typically they don't need to be on
a homemade diet most of the time, but there are
some owners that want to do it anyways, right.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So when you have an owner who really wants to
feed a home cooked diet, it is absolutely imperative that
it is done correctly because I have also seen far
too many instances of long term improper nutrition being said
and some of the adverse outcomes that we can see,
and this is especially truly the young growing animals. These
(13:37):
guys are far more susceptible to really horrendous potential adverse effects.
Where we can see bony changes, we can see multiple fractures,
we can see neurologic compromise, and so I really do
encourage any owner of a young animal to feed a
fully balanced commercial diet until the animal is fully grown.
(14:01):
And then we can circle back and I'm still going
to get to how to answer your question, but I'm
really emphasizing that it's so important that animals get complete
and balanced nutrition. And most recipes that people will find
online in books, even recipes written by veterinarians, are very
infrequently complete and balanced, so that means they are more
(14:23):
commonly deficient in one or more nutrients, and so to
do a home cooked diet right means to follow, usually
a very specific recipe that is formulated by a board
certified veterinary nutritionist, with a minimum some amount of protein,
(14:44):
some amount of fat to meet the animals essential faty acids. Now,
carbohydrates are not required by dogs sometounts, but often we
like to use carbohydrates sources to keep the fat and
protein a little bit more modest so that it's not
super duper high in protein or super duper high in fat,
(15:06):
and of a source of fiber, so a lot of
pets will do better with their GI helps to have
some fiber in their diet. And then beyond those macro nutrients,
you need to ensure that it's providing the essential micronutrients.
So that's all the vitamins and minerals, all the amino acids.
Even that's part of what we're trying to achieve with
(15:26):
certain proteins. But depending on what ingredients we're using, we
might need to supplement various different micronutrients and sometimes even
amino acids to get all the nutrients of a dogger petnet.
And those multi vitamin and multimineral supplements need to be
very specific products, so you can't just say use a
(15:50):
multi vitamin because if you've ever been in a health
food store, you know how variable the multi vitamins out
there are for people. And since dogs and cats have
their own mutaret needs that are different from what people need,
it is infrequent to never that a human multivitamin will
achieve everything I need for a dog or a cat.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
One thing that is new in the food industry, I
guess I wouldn't say new, like maybe the last decade
or so is pet food products are becoming more like
going towards.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
The fresh fresh diets.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So it's kind of I'm seeing it as like a
in between where people are like, Okay, I don't want
to go through making a homemade diet, but I also
don't want to feed kibble. So now we've got products
like Nomnam and Farmer's Dog, and what are your thoughts
on those, and do you have a brand that you
would recommend?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You're right, they do. You sort of serve as a
middle ground. I think of those of being very similar
in and steptually to home cooked diet, but for the
people who don't necessarily want to take the time to
do the preparation, and theoretically these sets are meant to
provide complete and balanced nutrition on their own so that
(17:11):
you don't need to worry about adding in any additional nutrients.
As far as I know, many of those companies do
employ veterinary nutritionists, whether it be full time or on
a consulting basis. But I will also say that these companies,
with all their different recipes, can have pretty different nutrient profiles.
(17:32):
And so it's not just about saying I'm going to
feed a pork based diet. It's about saying, you know,
based on the recipe I choose the product I choose,
this is the nutrient profile that I am aiming to achieve.
So you know, I recommend some of those diet options
for people who want that stile of food. I once
(17:55):
again don't think they're better in most cases than any
other commercial care or can diet, but I do hear
from clients that that's what they want to feed, and
so you just need to be aware of the individual
animal it's nutritional needs and then which diet or diet
will meet that that animals need.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And I think you hit it on the head. I
know my clients would do anything for their animals. They
approve all of the diagnostics, they are willing to go
the distance, and they definitely want to feed their dogs
and cats the best food out there. And so I
think there's like this feeling that if it's homemade, if
it's fresh, if it doesn't look like kibble, if it
doesn't have you know, if there's no kibble, that it's
a better diet, and they're willing to spend more on it.
(18:36):
But the reality is that they're going to end up
probably spending more money and getting a diet that is
just as or maybe not even as good as a
well balanced kibble. And so, why do you think there's
such a misconception about kibble, Like where do you think
that came from? Is it the way it looks that
the process behind it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I mean, I think there are a lot of factors
that influence people's thoughts about it, and I think there's
just some inherent thought that the less process to food
is the healthier it is. And there's probably some truth
to that, right there are some veterinarians, including some veterinary nutritionists,
who feel very strongly that's fresh is better than kibble
because of I'm going to get a little technical here,
(19:20):
and I don't want to goat too deep in the woods.
But you know, cooking foods under high heat, under high
pressure does potentially increase the production of advanced location end products.
I don't really want to get too deep in the
woods here there, right, So I don't want to go there.
But you know, I think that there's there's potentially some
(19:42):
validity to feeding less processed food is healthier. But what
we don't have is any good study comparing kibble to
fresh food long term, and that's what we really need
to say that it is better. Otherwise it's just based
on theory and people's you know, emotions and personal opinions
at this point. And so I would love to see
some long term studies comparing that, but I don't know
(20:03):
who's going to fund that. Yeah, well, you know, I
think I think people also answer fomorphize their pets. Yes,
they don't want to eat the same thing every day,
day in, day out. They want variety, So they think
their pets want variety. But we've all had pets who
will happily eat the same food every day, twice a
day for ten years and never complain. So I don't
(20:26):
think pets necessarily, I don't think healthy pets care as
much for the same variety as a human does.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, so I feed my dog's kibble. I'm assuming you
feed your dogs kibble. One thing that always kills me
this is I'm going down a rabbit hole here, is
that a lot of people have the misconception that veterinarians
get kickbacks from recommending kibble lines.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
And I'm just here to.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
State the record for the record that we do not
get kickbacks from the food companies. The foods that I
recommend are ones that I know have a board certified
nutritious nutritionists on hand. They're ASCO approved, which we can
kind of talk about, and I get absolutely no kick
back whatsoever. That would be awesome if I did, but
I don't, so, and I'm assuming you don't either.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
I don't, But I also do want to touch on
something you said. I think it's a really common misconception.
There is no such thing as an ask go approval. Okay.
So ASCO is the Association of American Feet Control Officials.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
They are an organization that sets recommendations and requirements for
nutrients amounts or adult canine and fealying maintenance and growing
canine and sealine puppies get in growing needs as well
as gestation lactation needs. They set recommendations to requirements for
(21:45):
healthy pets, and by law, there has to be an
ASCO statement on every pet student that is marketed in
the United States. The ASCO statement is meant to say
three things. It's meant to site if the diet should
be providing complete and balanced nutrition for which life stage
or stages, and how it was determined that it provides
(22:08):
complete and violenced antrition, So meaning a diet could be
complete and balance based on formulations. If you enter all
the ingredients and the nutrient analysis of all of those
ingredients into a computer spreadsheet and analyze it, and the
computer spits out a profile that says this is how
(22:28):
much of every nutrients in the diet, then it's been
formulated to mat meats versus. You can do an active
seeding test, which has very very very specific, precise legal standards,
and beat a certain number of dogs or cats a
diet for a certain amount of time with predetermined criteria
of monitoring before, during, and after the trial, and as
(22:50):
long as certain criteria are met, you can say that
it was that the diet provides complete and volunce nutrition
of determined via seeding tests, but not regulate pet food
ASCO does not stamp an approval or a reduction, right.
There are other organizations that do that, but realistically, there
(23:10):
are far too many pets food companies in the United
States for the government to pay attention to every single one, right, right,
So they're not going to probably, really it's not a medication.
It's not you know, it's dog and pet foods do
not have to go through an approval process to be
(23:31):
marketed and sold. Now, if enough animals are getting sick,
if enough people are reporting to the FTI concerned with
a pet food, they might investigate it. But you can
imagine how many reports would need to be put in
before they have the time and personal out to be
(23:52):
able to investigate, you know, a small or even a
large pet food company. Right. So I think most really
commonly amiss conception that if you see an ask a statement,
it means it's been asked to approved, But ask if
statements are required to be there by law, and they
don't tell you for sure if it's a good, reputable brand.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So are we throwing that as something that we don't
care anymore that it's on the label or on the
bag when you're choosing a kibble.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So not exactly, it's hopefully that's not what just came across.
They have to have enough, right right. Statement should be
able to tell you if you want to feed it
to only some extent. It's not the end all be all.
It should tell you if it's complete mount because the
alternative saying it's complete mounce is it might say intended
for intermittent or trusclemental feeding only.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I see.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So you want to really get into the nitty gritty
of the AFCO statement, right, Okay, And.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Again, it's not better or worse if it had feeding
trials or formulad to meet. There are pros and cons
to both of those approaches that I'm not going to
probably have the time to go into episodes, but you know,
we can circle back to that at a later date.
The most important thing, and I was just speaking at
VMX earlier this week and I showed an example is
(25:10):
you could have two diets from the same company with
almost the same name. So I'm going to just use
a very specific example because I just have this in
a PowerPoint. Wellness Core Shreds Okay, Wellness cat Food Core Shruds,
two products in pouches, both called wellness core shrubs. One
complete and balanced, the other is intermittent or supplemental feeding
(25:34):
only to be used as a topper. So we have
all these products out there intermixed on the shelves. Some
are meant to be complete and balanced. Some look very
similar but are not meant to be complete and balanced.
And if they're not meant to be complete and balanced,
you want any calories from foods that are not complete
and balanced. So treats, toppers, medication administration, foods, supplements, raw hides, dentitude,
(25:59):
any saying that that animal is getting in a day
that's not complete and balance. He wants that to make
up no more than about ten per months of the
total daily in type. So depending on the size of
the animal and the number of calories they're eating, that
could be as little as twenty twenty five calories a day,
might be upwards of one to two hundred calories per day,
depending on the size of the animal and their individual
in our chating.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Gosh, Okay, see now I'm still learning from you. I
graduated seven years ago and I'm still learning from you.
That's amazing. So I know, yes, I know from learning
that AFCO, of course is important. We want to make
sure it's on there. But I think the big takeaway
is like, let's look at the nitty gritty of what
the recommendation is, because for example, like toppers like Stella
and Chewy, I'm sure that that is not for everyday use,
(26:41):
and people could be using it to feed every single meal,
like as the main portion of the meal, and that's
not what it's intended for.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
So once again, even within that company as an example,
they make different styles, right, so they'll make they'll make
some things but are complete and balance, and they'll make
something only meant to be given intermittent as topper. That's
one of the only things that that Asko statement is
kind of good for us to fight. Is this meant
(27:07):
to be complete and balanced or not.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
The other big topic right now in kibble is grain
free foods, and I think for a long time a
lot of people thought, okay, less by product, there's less grains,
Like dogs really need to be eating more protein and
same with cats. And if we're avoiding grains, like this
must be a better food. And we now know that
grain free foods are linked to heart disease in our
(27:31):
pets and I still get clients that are inclined to
buy it for whatever reason. I know some people feel
like their pets have grain allergies. I guess how common
is it for a pet to have a grain allergy?
And what are your thoughts just surrounding grain free foods?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
This is a hot topic. I agree, I think grain
allergies are pretty uncommon. Wheat is technically reportedly an allergen.
I don't know that I have ever definitively seen a
dog or a cat be allergic to wheat. Technically, and again,
people sometimes want to talk about gluten in there, and
(28:06):
technically Irish butters can have a predisposition to with gluten intolerance.
But for the most part, most food allergies are going
to be to the proteins most commonly, I would say
probably chicken, beef, dairy, and fish. I've never been a
(28:27):
proponent of saying grain free is better, but I also
am not willing to say grain free is that. And
that's because not all grain free diets are the same.
So when we think about the link between shortain types
of diets and dilated cardiomiopathy, it is important to remember
that there is not a definitive black and white pause
of that relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I'm going to inject it for just a second. Dilated
cardiomyopathy is the heart disease that has been linked to
grain free foods.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We can call it DCM to keep it simple.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Great, So, there are a lot of different diet types
in the past that has been linked to DCM in
dots and cats. So historically, way back in the day,
like any touring deficient diet has been linked to DCM
and cats, which is why now touring is you know,
in everything, and torain isn't essential, I mean acid for cats.
(29:18):
Unlike dots in the nineties, lamb and rice diets were
a really big issue with being linked to DCM in dots,
and Newfoundland were one of the more commonly reported breeds
in the nineties. So fast forward thirty years now we're
in the you know, two thousand, teens and twenties, and
(29:40):
now we've got these diets that are being linked to
d CM. Not just screen free, but many of these
diets specifically very high in pulse ingredients peas, lentils, chickspeas beans,
because technically potato based diet grains free. And I think
(30:02):
that many veterinarians are still comfortable recommending potato based, selected
limited ingredient protein diets for their pets. So we have
to be really careful. We can't have it both ways.
We can't cite grains free diets are bad and then
turn around and recommend DD or selected protein to our
for their allergic pets. Right, So we can't have both ways.
(30:24):
What I am doing me personally, and this is not
one hundred percent black and white. If I am telling
people that we're going to consider this on a case
by case basis, We're going to think about if there's
a strong reason that you feel that we need to
try to feed a green free diet to your pet,
we're going to think about predisposing risks for DCM in
(30:45):
that pet. Once again, in the nineties, new fees were
highly pre disposed. Currently, goldens tend to be one of
the higher predisposed breeds now, not just because golden owners
are far more aware of it and they're getting their
box checked. Yeah, probably that has something to do with
it because many of the dogs, well right now, all
the dogs that are developing this. There is no simple
(31:06):
blood screening test. You can't just measure a touring and
say if it's normally your dog doesn't have DCM because unfortunately,
in the nineties with lamb and rice, they were almost
all touring deficient, and now a lot of them are
not deficient in touring. And we don't know what's causing
the DCM. We don't know if it's a nutrient and efficiency,
we don't know if it's a toxicity. And so I
(31:29):
am for the most part avoiding diets that are very
high in peas, lentsiles on other pulse ingredients. I am
not as nervous using potato based diets, but I am
going to think about for every individual pet, is it
worth putting your dog on a completely grain inclusive diet,
because I do think there's a higher risk in your pet,
(31:51):
and I don't feel like the benefits that way the risks.
So I'm not willing Again, I'm not willing to say
you should never feed a grain free diet to it dog,
but I am looking more closely at what ingredients are
in the diet and making sure that it's not a
lower protein diet. Also, vegetarian diets have been linked to
(32:12):
DCM and dogs, so again I want it to be
providing adequate protein, providing adequate amino acids and not too
too high in certain pulse ingredients.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
What cable do you feed your dog? Are there like
kibble brands that you really or you're like, these are
the kibble brands I recommend.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So I have two cats and they're both allergic disaster.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
The cats or cats? I always think dogs. The cats.
We love the cats.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, they're both allergic disasters. They're both on different hydrolyzed
diots because one of my cats wants to be obase
and I won't let her, so she gets a lower
calorie but also higher fiber hydrolized and.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
One of them I feel that I feel that deeply prone.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Towards being on the slimmer side. And again they have
different allergic issu you. So for whatever, it's where they
both get different hydrolyzed sites, and when I tried switching
them to be on the same one, they retect today,
I mean, and so generally speaking, you know, again, there
are certain criteria that I want to consider when when
choosing pet foods. There are a list there's a list
(33:16):
of really nice questions that you can find from the WSABA,
the World Small Animal Veterinary Association. They have some really
nice handouts online on their toolkit website taps on how
to select a pet food questions to consider asking pet
food manufacturers, but I'm looking for companies that do have
(33:37):
at least one full time for certified nutritionists on staff
and or PhDs and nutrition I'm ideally looking for companies
that will provide complete nutrient profiles for all their products,
that do research and development, that have excellent quality control standards.
And some of these things are nice to say and
maybe harder to verify, but there are certain questions that
(34:00):
you can call and ask pet food manufacturers to answer
for you if you want. I do regularly use products
like Hills rocanean karina, but I have learned how to
be far more flexible over the years of my career
here because I know that those products are not going
(34:21):
to be acceptable for all pet owners. So I am
very willing to look into other options and make other
recommendations based on what the individual owner's preferences are, but
also again what that pet needs are. That's ultimately my
most important role here as a nutritionist is the site
What are the nutritional needs of this pet? And how
(34:43):
can I be those needs.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
One last main food fad that question for you, What
are your what's your hot take on raw diets? And
a lot of people are have friends or a mutual
acquaintance that has had a really good experience and then
they want to implement it, and my initial feeling is, oh, God,
don't do it. So I'm wondering what your what your
(35:20):
hot take is on raw diets?
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, I mean, I try really hard not to say
always or never, right right, So I will not say
I will never, and recommend is probably not even their word.
I don't regularly recommend raw, So I will say that
I do not recommend raw because of the potential risks
that are feeding claws. However, if I am working with
(35:45):
a client who is adamant about feeding cross I will
work with them because I would rather they feed a
complete and balanced, good raw diet and an unbalanced raw diet.
I have worked with the owners whose definition of a
raw diet it was, go to the supermarket, buy a
package of chicken wings, open up said package of chicken wings,
(36:05):
put it on the ground. That's my dog's food. Versus
there are complete and balanced, commercially available raw pet foods
on the market right well, and Chewi is one Instinct
is one, and you know I have I have had
the opportunity to talk to veterinarians who work at let's
say Instinct. They have a board certified veterinary contritionists on staff.
(36:29):
They check off a lot of the criteria you're looking for,
and you are looking for a reputable pet food company,
But you still have to decide what are the needs
of this pet. And there are risks of feeding froth,
there are risks of bacterial transplocations if it's not complete
and balanced producing nutrient and efficiencies that way. There are
(36:51):
risks to the people coming into contact with that pet
and whoever is coming into contact with the species of
that pet, if it is shutting any fatal or infectious disease.
And even if the pet doesn't show clinical science, it
can shed bacteria, it can shed pominilla. I just think that,
you know, you have to prioritize what's the most important thing,
(37:14):
And for me, the most important thing for the nutrition
of any pet I'm seeing is that it gets all
the nutrients that need, whether that be a kibble diet,
a fresh diet, a home cook diet, a raw diet.
My biggest priority for every single pet I see is
that it's getting the nutrients and the nutrition that it needs.
(37:34):
And beyond that, my individual goals are going to vary
based on the pets. So I'm going to treat a
pet with kivy disease differently than I'm going to treat
a pet with gas or and festinal disease differently than
I'm going to treat And I'm going to treat under
a condition pets differently from over conditioned pets. And that's
why I don't like to just cite always or never,
(37:55):
but in this circumstance for this pet, this is what
we should be doing.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
So I think the big message from this episode is
there's no blanket statement when it comes to nutrition in
our pets. Each pet has their own individualized nutritional requirements,
and when owners are unsure or they're choosing a diet
to feed their animals, it's so important to work in
(38:23):
tandem with your veterinarian and as general practitioners, we can
make really good recommendations. And if your pet does have
like significant underlying disease and we're not really sure what
diet is best for them, we are more than happy
to consult with a veginary nutritionists refer out people even
like doctor Parker. You can set up a consultation with
her over the phone, and other nutritionists you offer that
(38:46):
service as well. Is there a good website where people
can go to find nutritionists to have those appointments.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yeah, so what was formerly known as the American College
of Veterinary Nutrition has merged with the ACBIM, the American
College of Veterinary Internal Medicine. So I'm not sure if
the website is still in flux, but previously I would
have referred people to the acv N directory the American
(39:15):
College of Veterinary Nutrition, and I think that website is
still up in it so you can search on there
for who's doing who offers consultations directly with pet owners.
It may very well probably will merge with the ACBIM,
but I don't actually know if that has happened yet
because this is a relatively new change.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Okay, well, stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
I'll keep my followers informed on how to get a
hold of you guys. But yeah, I just when thinking
about web foods to feed your pets, just making sure
you look for those credentials that we had talked about
previously and working with your vegineerian because it is, as
you can tell, a very complicated process and it's not
a one size fits all.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
So thank you so much for coming today.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I really appreciate your perspective and your expertise. I feel
very lucky to have had you here, and it was
very informative and I am still learning, so thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Thanks for having me, Susie.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
All Right, that was.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Such an awesome conversation with doctor Valerie Parker, and I
feel like we learned a lot and I feel like
it made me take notes and think a little bit
more thoroughly as far as what we are feeding our
dogs and cats at home. But I would love to
ask you, doctor Josie, what would be the key takeaways
for listeners that they should kind of highlight and implement
(40:35):
in their own day to day with their pets as
far as nutrition goes.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I would say the five main takeaway points from that
interview that I would take and that I recommend on
a daily basis are one, Feeding a homemade or fresh
food diet is not medically really any better than feeding kibble.
If you want to do that, great, we'll talk about it.
But feeding kibble is just as healthy as the alternatives.
(41:01):
And really the three kibble diets that I recommend on
a daily basis are going to be Purina, Proplan Royal Canaan,
and Hill's Science Diet.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Another big takeaway for me.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
You know, if you're like, Nope, I don't care, I'm
not feeding kibble, I want to do a homemade diet,
like all the more power to you. My big thing
would be be ready to spend a lot of time
in the kitchen cooking, and don't do it until they're
full grown. If they're a puppy or a kitten, get
them on a puppy or kitten kibble they really need
a specific amount of fat and protein. And then once
(41:30):
they're in adulthood you can kind of transition over to
that homemade diet. And of course, last we're not least
working with a veterinary nutritionists. When you're formulating these foods,
it can go very wrong. I have seen cases where
they have something called rickets, so their bones kind of
like turn into like gello. They almost look like they're
walking on rubber bands because they didn't get enough of
the proper nutrition. And so yeah, it can go really bad.
(41:52):
So definitely work with a veterinary nutritionist. Yeah, it really
makes a difference. Like I don't want to go too
far into it because you guys touched on those things.
But I had a French bulldog Boston, who have our
notorious for allergies, and I just would go to the
store or get a different food and be like, she'll
be fine. When I finally went into the VET, they
were like, let's do some allergy testing on her, and
we did, and we found out she was allergic to
(42:14):
animal proteins. So we switched her to the Royal Canin
hypoallergenic and it changed her life and she lived to
be like fourteen, and I swear to you it was
because of her diet. It can make a huge difference.
And you heard doctor Parker reference hydrolyzed protein diets, and
that's exactly what that is. It's making the protein and
the food so small that the pet can't develop an
(42:37):
allergic reaction to it because it can't detect the kind
of protein it's eating. Right, it sounds crazy like it's
made in a peatrine dish, but it is very healthy
and they do great on it long term. And really
that leads me to my next point, which is if
they're going to have an allergy to their food, it's
almost always to the protein.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
It is very rarely to grain.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So if you have a young or even adult healthy pet,
cat or dog out there, I would not freed a
grain free food, especially the diets that are substituting lentils
and peas and sweet potatoes and lieu of grains. Those
are the ones that are tied to heart disease in
our pets.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
Yeah see, and that's I think again, like French cheese
in Boston's in the past, like friends of mine that
I know that have them, they've ended up with heart problems.
And she never had any issue. I'm not saying it
was all based on her diet, but I know her
diet definitely helped her in a huge way. Her hair
coat was great, her body type was great, her breathing
was better because she was not having any allergy issues.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
So it can be really helpful.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
And then the last point is I personally, and I
would have to say I'm probably speaking for the majority
of veterinarians out there, we don't recommend feeding a raw diet.
I have just seen so many cases where pets are
coming in and they are really sick with GI disease.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Usually it's a bacterial infection.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
And then the risk of the humans getting sick in
the household is really high as well. A way, Yeah,
it's just it's not worth the risk. I know there's
a lot of like hoopla on the internet about it,
but I advise against it pretty strongly.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Yeah, lots of ads on my Instagram because I follow
a lot of pet yeah, like Instagram pages and stuff
like that, and I definitely wanted to try out some
of the raw diets several times because you just hear
how great they are.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
But I think the main thing is like talk to
your vet first and a nutritionist to make sure.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Because it's like people, there's so many options out there
right now, but it doesn't mean it's good for you, yeah,
just because it's good for other people.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
And those ads are so targeted, like we're like the
ultimate dog moms and they're like, oh, we're gonna get you.
And if I wasn't a vet, I would have no idea.
I would be buying like filet mignon raw from Tokyo,
like one hundred percent would do it. But I strongly
recommend not doing it and and there's a lot of
other great options.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
So okay, on.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Today's Paw and Order, we are going to discuss things
that I would never do as a vet Gerian surrounding grooming.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Okay, I would.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Never, ever, ever, ever get a doodle without securing that
grooming appointment beforehand. I cannot tell you how many doodles
come in looking scraggly and they are matted and they
are not happy. And so if you're getting a doodle,
just know like they are high maintenance. They are going
to require grooming every four to six weeks, eight weeks max.
(45:25):
And if you don't get them groomed, then they get
shaved down and they look like little naked mole rats.
They're not happy looking, and they're so embarrassed. They're like
cold shouldering their parents. So so yeah, if you got
a dude, make sure you get them groomed. It's kind
of like before you have a kid, secure a daycare exactly,
before you get a doodle, get a room exactly, and
they're hard to get ahold of these days. Okay, Next
(45:46):
on the docket, I would never get a dog with
floppy ears and not clean them out regularly. These are
the dogs that are going to be way more predisposed
to your infections. You got those long flaps covering that
tiny little ear canal, So clean them out on a
regular basis, and by regular I mean like every one
to two weeks.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
Okay, what's your recommended like specific for cleaning them out.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
So you're gonna take that flop ear flop it over
and you're going to actually pour the cleaning solution.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Into the ear canal.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Okay, yeah, oh yeah, like it's all up in there
and then they shake, it goes everywhere, gets in your eyes,
in your mouth, close your eyes and mouth for sure,
and then I just use a cotton ball to wipe.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Out the excess. Okay, all right, good to know.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Next on the docket, I would never have my dog's
anal glands expressed unless they need it. A lot of
people will go to the groomer and the groom will say, hey,
do you want me to express your dog's anal glands?
And I would be like, heck, yeah yeah, But if
they don't need it, I say, don't do it. So
ways you know if they need it are if they're
licking back there, if you smell that smell, you know
(46:49):
that smell. If we don't want to smell smell, I'm
like trying not to gag your smell in the entire universe,
I'm convinced. And if they're kind of like scooching their
butt on the floor, that's a signs that they probably
need them expressed.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
But the anal gland butt drag, the anal, it's really cute.
It's honestly, it's not good. It's gross.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
So if they're not showing you those signs, they're probably
expressing them on their own, and you don't need to
do it for them. And once we start, we usually
have to keep up with it.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
Gotcha, See I did not know that, all right? Good
to know.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
And then last but not least, I would not put
rubber bands and my dogs for I know, it's really
cute to like put ponytails on them, especially like those
little white fluffy guys, but I would do like clip
in bows. I would avoid rubber bands. I had a
patient somehow get the rubber band out of her pony,
her high pony, and it got wrapped around her little
paw and it cut off circulation to her paw and
(47:39):
she almost lost it.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
So elastic bands you guys.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
No elastic bands, clip and bows only, please and thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
This is I'm learning a lot. That's what we're here for.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
I've seen so many dogs lately on Instagram with those
little lass I'm all of them.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Now.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
I know we need to get We are the rubber
band vigilantes.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
We are.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Now, that's awesome. Well, I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
I feel like we covered a lot of ground today,
especially about diet and nutrition, very similar to people which
we're all trying to be healthier in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Definitely a lot of info, a lot of good info.
And if you guys have any follow up questions, feel
free to reach out to us specifically, you were welcome
to DM me on Instagram It's doctor Josi Vett and
then give us a like wherever you listen to your.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Podcast and subscribe. All right, we'll see you next time.
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