This week on GET REAL Podcast...CAITLYN SMITH!
CAITLYN is an incredible MAMA, SONGWRITER, and ARTIST on a mission to express her SOUL in the most CREATIVE, JOYOUS, and ALIGNED ways!
She has written songs for DOLLY PARTON, MILEY CYRUS, JOHN LEGEND, and MEGHAN TRAINOR…among others!
She is now heavily embarking along her own ARTIST career and absolutely rockin’ it!
IN THIS EPISODE, we talk:
• Being a FEMALE in this industry
• The “HIGHS & LOWS” of her career
• Overcoming other VOICES and AGENDAS
• Walking straight into FEAR
• Stepping into YOUR GREATNESS
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Listen to CAITLYN SMITH on GET REAL Podcast...NOW!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Add carl Lone. She's a queen and talking song. She's
getting really not afraid to feel the episode and so
just let it flow. No one can do we quiet.
(00:22):
Cary Lone is sounding Caroline.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Okay, I am so excited to be with Caitlin Smith.
Hello in my house. I'm so happy to be here. Yes.
So it's a beautiful day, the sun shining. Yeah, and
here we are drinking coffee, drinking coffee, trying to set
up in home camera studios. You're looking great, thanks, new
album out man. So we recorded. We did a podcast
(00:50):
right when the pandemic hit and you had just released
super Nova, right and that was like a bittersweet moment
for you. I feel like, because you had made this
beautiful album, the pandemic hit, it.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Was it was like maybe more bitter than sweet. It
was a bummer because bummer.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Life can be such a bummer something. But it was
a bummer for everybody I know. But it's like, but
that was my bummer. Tell me about that bummer because
I think about like all that it takes to like
put your heart and soul into this music career and
everything that you have to give to this career. These
(01:28):
songs to bring them to life and your performances and
it's just everything, and then to have the bummer of it.
How do you move past that? Because you did? You
did move past that and you made another album High
and Low amazing.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Remember we had a big year planned for twenty twenty
with the release of Supernova, and I was gonna I
was on the road with a Little Big Town. We
were going to do Marion Morris tour. Like it was
just going to be a big, big, fun time, right,
oh man? And that tour lined up too, Yeah, is
it just a good way?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You don't have to get the next door? It's so
sad and.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
You know, and so really like I took the weekend
because we were in Detroit getting the night before we
were supposed to play a Little Big Town and they
canceled the whole tour. I was having Martini on a
pink velvet coach.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
It's like it felt like a movie. So my manager
I was like, Letten, kid, you gotta get a rental car.
You gotta go home. I'm like, I was like, do
you're actually ready to start the whole tour?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Were like we were in we were there to start
another run to start another run and get ready to
promo the record.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I was going to go to New York all the thing.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Anyways, I do remember just getting in the rental car
my husband and I and drive in and just wanting
to be back with our babies, and you know, it's
feeling like okay, let's just get to them feel safe.
And then it was definitely a morning period.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Of like, oh, this sucks.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
We had like big plans and and and you know,
so I cried a lot. But then I also turned
to writing, like pretty much right away. I called up
some of my best friends and I was like, hey,
what are you doing. Yeah, let's stop looking at the
news and let's just like write.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And so did you write a lot of this new album?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
A lot of this new album was written on zoom
kind of in that period of like of the Low Really.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I love this album because it's like the highs
and the low man lately that song, I'm like, these
songs are anthems and Hi, because Miley Cyrus got that
song too, she did you write anthems like songs that
move you to your core? Man? Well, thanks, tell me
(03:39):
how I came about because I know you produced this
yourself and you, which is huge, I mean huge, congratulations,
thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
It was like something I've always been curious about, but
I didn't really I didn't see any other female artists
like doing it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Especially I moved to down thirteen years ag go.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There was nobody, no but from Minnesota, and there was
nobody producing their own records, no females. And I was like, Okay,
well maybe that's just not a thing that I'll do,
but you always wanted to.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I always wanted to, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And after years of like doing my own demos and
kind of like making other records, being kind of you know,
letting other wonderful producers take the reins, like I learned
so much. It was just a sponge from these people.
But when I came to this record, I was just
I was doing a lot of my own demos at
home because I had to, and kind of playing around,
(04:36):
and I was like I missed this, Like I got
like I it brought me back to this space of
being sixteen years old and I had like a pro
tools rigged in my basement and my dad my brother
was in my band, and my dad like filled our
basement with music instruments and so I would just come
home from school high school and just play and make stuff,
(05:00):
and like it was a space that like was really
really happy at that point of my life. But you know,
I kind of lost it, right, It's easy to lose it.
I lost that and so kind of COVID forced me
to just like find it again, find it again, which
is kind of cool. And then I was like, wow,
maybe I maybe I want to do something like this
for my next record. And a good friend of mine,
(05:22):
Jenda Silvia, who we wrote high together maybe in another life,
like we've written a bunch of a bunch of the
songs on this record in the last one. She's an
incredible writer but also like a badass producer, and she
was like such a voice of like, girl, you can
do this, Like just try it. What's the worst that
can happen? Like you just it sucks and you start over.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Because that's a real moment there, Like we're saying it
quickly in this conversation, and you're like you have this
friend encouraging you want to do it. You're like, Okay,
I'm gonna try. But there's a lot of feelings behind that,
because to do something like that where you're putting yourself
out there, right, you're not going to produce your own album.
And I read another interview that you did. You said
you could feel like the actual like growing pains are
like the te It was uncomfortable getting through it, getting
(06:06):
through it, getting comfortable through that growing pain, getting through
that step that is the hardest because you're coming toe
to toe with your fear in that moment, in my fear,
like in my insecurity really is what it was, and
you're like literally walking right into it.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Like literally just having to sit and look at it
and go through it, like, Wow, I'm really insecure and
I don't I have to direct this band in how
I want this song to come out, and I don't confident.
I'm not really sure, and and it.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Just was like just die, how do you start that process?
Like how do you even start walking through that? Because
that is a huge.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I mean, I think like I tried to prepare on
the front as much as I could with just like
becoming a student of like production and just listening to
my favorite records and like listening to drum sounds and
listening to guitar tones and listen you know, like the spaces,
you know, and like just taking notes, right, and I
(07:06):
made like a playlist of like, well, this is the music.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That moves me.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I mean, it is a plethora of artists, so it's
it's everything from Whitney Houston to Harry Styles to Wilco
to Eda Eda James to a Vacacidy to Patty Griffin
Dixie Chicks.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Like literally, it's kind of all over the map, but
I feel that in your music, but it's kind of
all in there, right, It's like, oh yeah, this sounds
like Harry Style, like background vocal moment, and this sounds
like this fiddle kind of reminds me of the Dixie
Chicks a little bit, but also a little bit like
will go. Like it's kind of all in there. And
so anyways, I just I studied, and.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I I leaned into what I loved. And then I
also got a great engineer that can really walk alongside
of me.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And so.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I was listening to these records and I was like,
who is engineering these? Like I was listening to Stapleton
record and I saw the name Gina Johnson, and so, uh,
some friends of my, like a friend of mine introduced us.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We got coffee. So turns out this girl and I
love that it's a girl. I love that it's a girl. Right,
there's no girl engineers, like hardly all of course that's
what you love, is yeah, exactly. Well, turns out that
she's from Minnesota, on the town that my grandparents are from.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So like not shocking, instant kindred spirits. And so the
great thing was is Guina. Guina is an incredible engineer.
She also has like a great producer like her as well,
and so she was like, you can do this, and
I like, I'll help you. And so she really was
like the wind beneath my wings and this project and so,
you know, having this kind of support team. I also
(08:50):
like in this period of this record, like switched over
a bunch of my team and actually unintentionally just changed
it to a lot of women. And so I've I
landed in the space of like just surrounded by a
lot of support and safety, like a safety net. And
it was really a beautiful place to be because I
(09:10):
think it also like it enabled me to crack myself
open in a different way, like I think of like
practically what that means is like let's say I was
in the studio cutting vocals.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And Guina and we did it at Guinna's house.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
She's got a space in East Nashville and she's got
like a little room that she does vocals in. It
doesn't have any windows. It's just like so you can't
see her, you can't see anything.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Is that nice? And it was?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It was like kind of game changing to me because
like I didn't then I could. I didn't have to
like put makeup on, go to the studio. Yeah, Like
even just being surrounded by women, you don't realize how
much your guard can come down. Yes, Like you know,
because I'm like, oh, if it's a dude, like I
kind of want to you want to brush my teeth,
I'm gonna like at least comb my hair. I don't know,
(10:05):
like yeah, just be a little more presentable. But I
just feel like that that that kind of was a
domino effect unhinge a little where it's like, okay, so
I'm in this room where no one can see me,
and like I felt like I was able to just
be as raw as I ever have a vocal booth,
cry you know whatever, like do whatever weird things I
(10:27):
need to do with my body to get no one's
watching you, nobody's watching me. It's just for myself, where
it's like all the other times I made records, like
people are watch can see you, or whoever can see you,
the engineer can see you, and it's like you're still
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Being observed.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
And so it was so interesting to be in that space.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Because no matter how incredible of an artist you are,
which you are the most incredible, you still are influenced
by people. To have no influence of eyes watching you
when you're putting, when you're putting your vocal out there
in the most raw form, that has to be just
(11:06):
a huge liberating experience.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It was so liberating, I mean even being able to
take take these files, put them on my own computer
and like edit, you know, spend the whole day like
editing strings, and like nobody else is there.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
It's just me and these strings parts, and like take
all the big nobody's looking big machine away from it.
So they take the big machine away and just get
down to like what do I like? You? Just you?
So this was for you? This album was yours? Really? Yeah,
I mean people can always say all the music they
make is for themselves, but like then all the different
people can involve, producers, robles, everyone has an opinion. This
(11:45):
one was yours.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I mean it was and and and if I'm like,
let's go back to like, hey, we were talking about
super Nova. Like if I think about that time period,
like think about the whole I've made three records on Monument,
you know, and I'm made LA Label the first record
I made before.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I signed with the label, and then they bought the record,
put it out and thats called and it's called Starfire Starfire,
And then with super Nova, all of a sudden, ever,
there were a lot of voices, so opinions. Starfire kind
of a similar experience to High and Low because you
made it on your.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Own, because it made it on my own. It was
just me and and Paul Molk was a brilliant produce.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Oh he's so great.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
He's a genius and so and we just were like,
let's like, let let's just pick songs that we love
and let's make it. Make it sound like we love
no pressure. So it was like a no pressure record.
So proud of it. Super Nova, I was like, Okay,
there's a lot of voices. I don't know what to
do coming off of like the success of Starfire, and
so I made a lot of that record in LA
(12:49):
And I also instead of doing the hard thing of
just like listening to myself, I started listening to a
lot of other people.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I found myself chasing it's so easy, like, oh, if
you just made it, it's a little bit more like
the like a little bit more like a del a
little bit more like that, then we could get it
on AC radio or like whatever. So then there's like
voices and like agendas. Isn't that so interesting because I
feel like all of these people that we get on
our team or whatever, they're here to help, Yeah, but
(13:17):
they also come with their own very strong ideas and
opinions about you. Who is now like you're not just
a person anymore, and you're not an artist. You are
like a brand. You are a product, and it gets viewed,
it starts getting put through that and like it just
happens over and over and over again to incredible artists,
Like it just always happens, and it's just it's you
feel like, oh, it's not gonna happen to me or whatever,
(13:38):
but it just it's almost impossible not to.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Happen, really hard, And I think, well, another thing happened
during that second record was that after kind of after
we kind of came out of the COVID season, I
re released the album, but I put on a little
duet with featuring Old Dominion. Oh yeah, so this opened
the door then for me to go to country radio,
(14:02):
which was awesome and like had that ride good times.
But then but coming off of that, I definitely felt
this pressure to like, oh, we'll have to make another
radio song. I have to make something that radio is
gonna want to play. So I definitely, like, you know,
so there's definitely some chasing in that season. And you know,
(14:24):
Downtown Baby is a part of High and Low because
it's part of it's part of this journey, right, and
it is a part of me. I love to just
get drunk and crazy in New York. That's what the
song's about. And so but it is a part of
like that last bit of me, like chasing. Yeah, before
(14:46):
kind of that song was before kind of just.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
On the album. Okay, interesting you say that because I
was listening to your album and that one did feel
like the most commercial one, right yeah, which just feels great.
It's a great song.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
But yeah, okay, I chase properly, thank you, And we
definitely we went to country radio with it, and the
hard thing was just like I was like, I like
this song, but.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
It's also not like the song Sword that I want
to die on? Which song Sword do you want to
die on?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I mean like maybe in another life, but it's a
ballad and no one wants to play a ballad or
life and you know, or high but like no one.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Like did demograph that song? She put it on a
plastic arts record? Yeah, yeah, right, I mean, oh my god. Okay,
so you and I obviously love you and I've stalked
to you a lot about this album though, but you're saying
you said, Alaska is getting a lot of response and
that song like cut me to the core, man, thank you?
Where did that come from? It's actually like.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Shocking to me how many people toasting about it and well.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Because like who in a marriage or whatever hasn't like
hit moments where you're like, oh my god, what are
we going to drift apart? Or what is this? What
are we doing?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
And this is it's one of the real songs I
probably ever released, and the RAS songs too. It's the
raw song in the record because it's like the pain
that I'm closest to out of all of the songs,
there's a lot of memories I dig into, but like
that's that's the most how do you mean in the
sense of like Roll and I, you know, being in
(16:20):
Minnesota was really isolating over COVID and it was really
hard and I'd say, like a winter came and it
got cold in all senses of the word, right, and
we really just we went through a hard time. And
but we've been married thirteen years and it's like that's
what marriages is, just a series of hiens and lows
(16:43):
and working through it, but just getting really vulnerable and
raw about about the distance that we were experiencing.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Like I mean, it was hard stuff to say out loud.
How was he with it?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
But he I played in the song. I was afraid
to play in the song a little bit, like because
I was like, this might hurt his feelings. I played
played in the song, and he said, this is an
incredible song. It's like the first response, he goes, it's
really hard to hear, but it's really good.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And I was like, thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
I'm sorry, but how amazing that you can put those
feelings into a song, you know, instead of like into
like a big fight or instead of into more distance
or instead of into whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It's like you can actually put it into a song.
That's so right, because it's like marriage is like Michael
and I've been married. Now we've been I don't even know.
I think it's are we like nine years, ten years?
I've lost track. We've gone through some major highs and
those and that is what marriage is. It's like literally
walking through this life with someone and sometimes you're at
(17:48):
the freaking soaring like a shooting star in the best time,
and other times you're like, holy shit, like this sounds
like some serious heavy like duff, wait, I'm with you.
Oh oh, and then you have a family which you love.
But it's like totally, it's just a lot, and I
think it's a beautiful It's the most beautiful thing. And
(18:08):
it's like when you get on the other side of
the lows, it makes your marriage so much stronger and
you're it's that's something to be so proud of. But
like you got to weather the storms.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Totally, and it's I mean that one was a doozy,
but we got a really good therapist I feel so
grateful for and we started doing this.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Have you ever heard of e f T therapy is
that where you like rewire your brain.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Emotionally focused therapy, Well, I mean, I guess it is
some sort of rewiring, but it's really more like really
getting to the empathy, to that empathy with each other,
and I don't know it. It definitely changed the entire
way that we talk to each other in our marriage,
and I feel so grateful for that. I want to
(18:52):
tell everybody about it. Everybody go check out EFT. I'm
a big, big fan, so awesome. Yeah, but thank God
for therapy and also a songwriter husband that understands that
sometimes we just gotta write our way through it.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
And I think that that's what I really admire about
your songs too. Is And I was actually talking to Alley,
who is no longer my intern anymore because she's graduating
from college, but she's been my intern for the past
few years and it's been amazing. You're one of those
artists to me that is like you've had this strong
(19:32):
current about you for a long long time, Like you
you're one of those artists that like you have such
a force with you, like and you're so your music
is so powerful. You've had so many cuts for other
artists like the Big Cuts. You've been on huge tours,
you have made great music. You just got nominated for
ACM like New Artists, New Female Artists a year. You've
(19:54):
had this like rumble, this strong rumble forever, you know,
Like and you see some people like a Morgan Wallen
or something, they like shoot up in there an arenas
like it like within two years or whatever. But it's
like that doesn't happen for everyone. But like you have
this like just this solid just I don't even know
how to describe it. It's like you're just so good.
(20:16):
It's like you're etched in the history books already. That's
like how great you are. And it's like you keep
having amazing things happen. But it's I mean, it's not
like you're singing. You are singing national anthems all the places,
you know, but it's not like you're selling out arenas yet.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
But it's like you have to trying to sell a club.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
But you have this greatness that you just carry with you,
and it's you're one of those people that is just
this artist. You are just born to be an artist.
Your music is incredible. Everyone who finds you feels it
and knows it. Other artists see. It's like have you
just always known because you're just one of the ones
that was born great. I feel like that's really nice.
(20:56):
I feel like some people can have some hits and
have like some big b of lightning and flashes, but
not everyone is just born great, and a lot of
those people are great too. I'm probably mumbling and like
not even saying this correctly. I'm trying to basically say,
you are just You're just so nice. The the threads
that make you up are just so powerful. It is
(21:18):
like a Patty Griffin. It is like a Laurie McKenna.
It's like that, but plus it's then the soaring ballads,
and it's just you're just a really special artist man.
And you're a songwriter on top of it, Like you
have the songwriter element too, like the depth of songwriting.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I mean, I I don't know, Like when I look
back at my career, I see it as a long
and winding road for sure. And you know, when I
first came to Nashville, I think I was sixteen, sixteen,
sixteen years old.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
It's a long time. Did your parents come with you?
My mom? Did did you move here? Nope.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
We just took a trip and I remember like wanting
to go because I had made a little record, independent record,
and that's where you go as Nashville. And like at sixteen,
I remember thinking, I'm going to get a record deal
this year and I'm gonna start touring, like I just
I wanted it like so early, and so like I
(22:18):
saw the whole picture as like a kid, you knew it.
I knew it, but it's just like definitely doesn't just
turn out where you walk into town and get a
record deal. And it was a long and winding road
to get to where I could really step into my
artist's shoes. But I remember on that trip, you know,
(22:41):
fall in love with music city, but also seeing that
it's songwriter city and there's this whole community of creators
that just write songs for people. And then I saw,
you know that while all of my favorite artists that
have had long lasting careers have consistently released great songs,
they either write them and they cut them, and so
(23:04):
you know, as a teenager, I was like, Okay, then
I need to figure out how to write great songs.
So it was a million trips back and forth for
years and years. I finally signed my first publishing deal
then at twenty three, So it was a long it
was a long journey, wow. And I played bars and
churches and whatever I could in Minneapolis to save up
some money. So I was playing like the music circuit
(23:25):
up in Minnesota, and then I would come and crash
on couches in Nashville. And so you're dedicated. And so
I was dedicated at a really young age. But all
that to say, like even at twenty three, signing a
publishing deal, I was like, Okay, writing songs. This, this
really is Plan B. Like I've always wanted to be
(23:47):
the artist. The crazy thing is is like my Plan
B with writing kind of took off, like unexpectedly.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
What was your first big one that took off? First?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
My first big cut was Jason Aldan on the My
Kind Of Party record, which is like it went like
four four times platinum or something. It was like it
was a massive record, and so like what happened?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
And I was probably twenty gosh, twenty four, twenty five somewhere,
so that's like exciting. It was so exciting. It was
crazy exciting, like oh my gosh. And then I was
like right after that, it was like Rascal Flats and
then like Kenny and Dolly, and like there's a series
of like yeah, in like a.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Year of time, like all these cuts.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
You ahead, just Meghan Trainer and John Legend. That was later. Yeah,
that was a big hit.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
That was huge. That still plays the bills. Thanks Megan,
Thanks John. Yeah, I feel grateful for that. But it's
like this whole writing thing.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
It's like are you pitching your songs or are people
just hearing it well other like publishers are publishers are
or you're in the room with the artists and writing
with them just depends.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
But I mean that was so fun, like kind of
living in this space of songwriter. But I'll tell you
a few years in and after kind of getting a
handful of those cuts, it got to give the songs away.
So I was going around record labels and like pitch
playing that my songs, hoping that like, hey.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
They must sign me. I signed me.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I'm like, this is such a great song. We just
signed such and such act from the voice do you want?
Can we please put this on there?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Like a dream killer. It was a total dream kill
because here you are with this like a nomal voice
and you're the songwriter and you're an incredible artist, and
you're like, why are you not seeing? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
It was very hard and so they're like so I
was like, yeah, they can cut that because I was like,
I like, I like making money.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I guess, so like sure, But it has to be
so frustrating because you're such an artist and like here
and I'm no dogging on people from the voice or
anything like that, but it's like you've been doing this
for so long. You are so rich and rooted in
your artistry and you're so great at it, so just
to get like skipped over for the hot flash, it's
(25:56):
just so frustrating. That's where this town can break you. Yeah,
in so many ways.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's so that is like it is a hard thing,
but it's like it's also like a continual it's been
a continual lesson of just keeping my blinders on, which
is very hard for me. I look around a lot,
and this town looks around a lot. How is this
person's career going? Oh what are they doing?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
What do they do? Oh? Why do they have that?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
And it's like kind of this yucky narrative that happens
in this town. But it's like it that's a joy stealer,
and I I've like had to continually remind myself to
just stop looking around and just keep my head down
and focus on making great music and just keep taking
baby steps forward, right, keep climbing the mountain, because like
(26:43):
the things that that you know would be great to
have sure radio hit or a big big song just
pops off, or you have that moment and like cool,
now you're selling a ton of tickets, and like those
are like I like to think of them like one
ups on a video game or like you know, Mario,
we can like skip all the levels. It's lightning in
(27:04):
a bottle, like, and some people get so lucky and
that happens. It happens right away, and it's so exciting.
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
But also, like you know, some artists that I love,
like I think of like Brandy Carlisle. Oh my god,
that girl like just marched.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
She marched with the beat of her own drum and
she just just kept making great music, kept showing up. Yeah,
And I mean what she was on record like five
or six until she got recognized for like by the Grammys.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I have to think about this crazy way though, I
really have to think about it. This way because like
being a former artist, my husband, being an artist, like
just going through so many things in life now at
this point, Like I'm twenty forty this year, and I like,
I look, I look at life so differently than I
did when I was twenty, when I was nineteen and
I moved to this town. Because when I was nineteen
(27:52):
and I moved to this town, it was all about
the accolades. You know. It's like getting the record deal,
getting the single, getting the box, getting the getting the chores,
getting the fame, being the starlet, all that stuff like
that is what felt like success was right. And now
here I am twenty years later, being in this career
for so long, seeing so many creatives like yourself, myself,
(28:13):
just walking this walk for twenty years and seeing the
people who all different forms of success, all different forms
of talent, all different forms of creativity being expressed. But
it's like maybe it's not the best to jump the
levels and get the huge success in the beginning, because
you get it and like all of a sudden you
have this recognition, but like that kind of recognition and
(28:36):
that kind of extreme fame like that can really wreck
your life, it is, and create a ton of problems.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Shocking, you know, I've heard I've had a lot of
friends where it's been like very quick, and it's like
it's it's jarring, it's really jarring.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
It can really like, yeah, damage you in other ways,
you know. And so it's like sometimes when you do
have them more slow and steady, just committed to your talent,
to your greatness, when you do get moment like Brandy
had at the Grammys, it's like she's ready. She's so ready.
She is She's been knocked down so many times. She's
not glamored by any of it. She's not scared to
(29:12):
use her voice how she wants to, you know, like
you get past all those things that will like maybe
weigh you down if you're trying to like hang on
to the rocket ship, right, But when you lose the
rocket ship or when you don't ever have it, you
then really build you who you are as an artist.
That's so beautiful. It's a pain in the ass though,
(29:34):
the life out of you. And it's like, I mean,
I'm my first record. I've got a song called this
Stone is Killing Me, and it was like, you know,
kind of about the journey of trying to get the
record deal and trying to like get people to notice,
and just it wasn't happening.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
And so that was like my heartbreak song to Nashville.
But it's interesting how I still like very much can
pull that song up and be like, oh I still
feel this right now, and like, how, oh it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I don't know. It's all it's the same game. And
then I think it changes so fast. It changes so fast,
I know, like like over COVID, like those past two years,
like it became a TikTok town overnight, and then all
of a sudden, if you're not saying, if you're not
a huge on TikTok, you're not getting signed. It's like
you can get lost in the new hottest trend or
the new hottest thing. It's like I remember when American
(30:21):
Idol came out. If you weren't on American Idol, you
weren't gonna get signed. So true, it's always a hot
flash in the pan, but.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's like, Okay, there's the game that everybody plays. But
then but then like if you zoom out, like I
think the people who changed the game, the people who
last voices that last they didn't play by the rules.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And that's you. They played by their own game. That's
what I was trying to tell you. It's my jumbled
jargon of speech. Earlier, you're playing your own game, play
their own game, and maybe music for yourself because you
love it, because it's your art, right, And that's what
artistry is like. It's like really expressing what's in your soul. Right.
(31:08):
It takes a lot of bravery to do that.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
It really does, but also takes practice. It takes practice
to crack yourself open in that way and live in
that space. I don't know, I notice say, I feel
like I've been practicing a lot.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I know, I'm like, literally i feel like a wet
dog right now. I'm looking at my hair and my
hair is a reflecting I feel I'm just gonna check
the time I feel. I just feel I feel burnt
out lately, Like I just feel like not unin like
I'm not uninspired because I'm like continuously inspired by like
creatives like yourself, Like talking to you, like it's like
(31:44):
a jolt of energy for me. I always feel so
inspired having these kind of conversations because like getting to
be in the room with dreamers who are like doing
their dream and like going for it and going through
the fire and like having the highs and the lows
and like actually just like doing it that it is
just this the noblest to me. It's just like that
is just the bravest, most noble thing you can do
(32:05):
to express your soul. And it takes everything you have,
So like I find that so incredibly inspiring to like
be next to you and talk to you and like
get to like hear your journey because it takes everything
you have to do it. But it's like, I just
that you get this season of burnout where I'm like,
I've been doing this, this is town for so long.
Michael's been doing this for so long. I have so
(32:26):
many friends, and it's like sometimes they're just like what
is it all for? Like what is that you have
it for? Then you just have to get back to
why you want to do it. Yeah, you get back
to your why. I mean, what's your why?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Burnout is a it's what is my why? I mean,
I want to live. I want to live. I want
to be fully a live person, right, And so what
that looks like in all the aspects of my life
is that you know that I could be the I
could just be the best version of myself, showing up
(32:59):
for myself, showing up for my husband, showing up for
my kids. And I want to create beautiful things. I
want to create man all the way down to like
building a garden, planting flowers, to writing songs, to painting
to whatever it is to making babies.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
But and then my hope is to just inspire other
people to do that too. I mean, very vividly remember
the people that I've met along.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
The way that have inspired me are some of us.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I mean early on, I think I'm like my grandma
and both my grandmothers my mom were such like beautiful artists.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
In their own ways.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
And then there was one wonderful woman named Marnie in
high school. She was like our youth group, like our
youth group pastor's wife, and she was like literally those
shining star like.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I was like, just need to be like her.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
And I just feel like I've had these pillars of
women in my life. Teachers my English teacher was like that,
which just like and I think when I when I
think back to all of like all these really important women,
it's like they just were unapologetically like shining.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
That's been hard for Okay, so the is it the
Great Pretender? Is that the Great Pretender? Okay? I relate
to that song so much because that has been me forever,
and I think that's why I'm in a burnout season
right now. That is I mean, yeah, because I finally
like quit trying to be something just for everyone perfect. Yeah.
Well that that song.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Kind of goes back to, like I think about I
don't know how you grew up, but like I remember,
we grew up going to church, and we'd be on
our way to church and we'd be like fighting in
the cars family, like I hate you, like screaming at
each other, and then my dad would be like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
We're here. Everybody put on your church face. Everybody look happy,
which is so funny because everybody, I'm sure every other
family pulling up to the church is doing that.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Everybody does that. It's ridiculous. And so it's like it
started at a young age. Also as a performer at a
young age, so it's like you're just like everybody wants
you to sing, everyone wants you to be on right,
And once you.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Start being the star kind of person at a young age,
then you're always supposed to kind of be.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Startar play something for everybody and it's like dance, dance,
clown like whatever it's like. And so I think that's
like kind of ingrained in me at least. And then
I think becoming a young adult and also like social media,
(35:49):
we all just like put on our filters and put
on our highlight reels and we don't really tell our
families what's going on. We don't really other families who
we are. We start hiding parts of ourselves because we're
afraid of what other people are going to think. Yeah,
and it's like we're all now guilty of just like living.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
With some sort of mask.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Yes, and it's like exhausting. That's what I found.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
It was like turning thirty six and I was like,
just like watching my last Give a Fuck fly Away,
and I was like I don't need to act like this.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Yeah, I felt the same thing happened to me so tiring.
I was like, I'm going back who am I trying
to impress? Who am I trying to repress? I'm going
back to dying my hair bland because I realized I
don't like it brown anymore. But like I literally was
like why am I dying my hair blonde? Why am
I getting botox? Why am I getting I last extensions?
Why am I wearing these types of clothes? Why am
I going on to every single event? Why am I
(36:48):
always people pleasing and going into a crowd in a
room and like work in the room so happy everybody?
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Pretty? Why is why am I doing this? Like I
finally was like what am I doing any of this for?
And who? Yeah? Because as soon as you step out
of the game, you're forgotten, So like, am I just
trying to keep up? Like what am I? I'm Yeah?
Do I just need everyone to always like me and
think about me? That's so exhausting.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
It's exhausting because because if you can just like give
yourself what it is you're looking for, whatever that is
probably approval, like telling yourself like you're you're good enough
just as you are with blonde hair or not, right, Yeah,
Like if you can just learn to like give that
to yourself instead of constantly need it from other people.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, like needed to hear oh my gosh, you're so great,
you're so talented, you look great, you're awesome, You're but
like what because I don't feel like I'm good enough.
If I don't hear that, yeah, I think it's I think.
I mean that's what it was for me. For me too.
If I don't get the validation, then maybe I'm actually
not great at anything.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I found a phrase when I was kind of doing
I went through a period like I think after I
have my kids, where I just did a lot of work, right.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I think the kids will do that to you. And
I was like, I need to be a better version
of what's going on here for myself and also for them.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I agreed, So I'm not just crazy mom, right, they
don't want to talk to anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
The way you are move out. Yeah, I feel But
like some of the work, I realized there's actually a
thing called affirmation addiction. And I was like, oh wow
reading and I was like this nams like me. I identify
with all of this.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Where it's just and I think that was part of
my my problem too, And like in this journey of
record making too, of like wanting to please everybody, wanting
everyone on my team to feel proud of me and
also heard and like seen, and so I would I'm
like constantly asking what everybody else wants.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
To make sure you're the temperature of the Room's all good.
Everybody good, good, everybody happy, like everybody with me? Are
you an enneagram three? I'm a four, so I like
live at the bottom of the drain and my feelings
it's terrible. I do not wish a four on anyone.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing. How he's a four. I
have a little four wing. I have a four wing. Okay,
so you know a little bit. But I'm a three.
(39:07):
To be hard. To be a three achiever, I mean
the three. So that's the people pleaser, and you always
gotta be going, going, doing doing, like the next thing,
next thing, checking the goals.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I am not successful until I check off twenty things
on my list today.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
That's hard. That's exhausting. That's exhausting.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
There's lots of work to be done.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Okaylyn, I think you're doing an amazing job. And I'm
just so so so inspired, like proud for you, like
that you did this album yourself, and like you were
so real and so vulnerable and like you talk about
like the things that go on in our minds and
mental health, and like you're just like literally I feel
(39:48):
like you just keep stepping into your greatness with more
and more with each each move that you make, and
it's so cool to see you always are getting It's
not about the validation, but I mean it is because
like you do this and you want it to be received,
So it's like, yeah, I want people to hear it. Yeah,
(40:09):
but you're doing this authentic, real stuff and you're getting
it's getting received. Like that's the thing that is so awesome.
It's like you're being you and like you're not chasing it.
You know, I don't feel like you are. I feel
like this is like just as real nice as you can.
I don't feel like I'm too tired to chase. I'm
(40:29):
chasing like a six year old the four year old around.
I can't have you chasing everything. Have you liked this journey?
Has it been Have you enjoyed the journey? When I
it's it's so funny.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Someone else asked me that the other day, and it's
like it's not very often that I sit still and
reflect back on like the whole like do I feel
how do I feel like this whole thing has gone
that I've I have liked this journey, all of it
highs and the low Oh, I mean for sure, the
(41:03):
lows suck.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Nobody likes the lows.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
They're kind of they're kind of like it's also like
you when you look on the other side, it like
it almost feels necessary, agreed, like because if I haven't
gone through those lows, like I wouldn't have grown in
this way to get me to this place.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
And so.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I mean, this record, writing this record and kind of
living and the highs and lows has really given me
space to honor both, which is good. I mean, yeah,
honoring the good things and the bad. I mean, for sure,
I wouldn't wish it. I wouldn't want to do it again.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
I know. It's like but it's like you've earned it,
you know. It's like you look back and it's like
it's like, wow, you really earned this totally. You've sucked
the marrit out of it, you know, yes, because like
you gotta have it all. You got it. Yes, this
dualistic world I think about all the time. I'm like,
I'm not cut out for this earth, Like i don't
know why I'm here in Earth school, Like this is
(42:02):
true school. Yeah, it's so hard, it's so hard, but
then it's it is beautiful on the other side and
like you being able to put it into music is
like such a gift for all of us. Thanks. Okay.
So I always wrap up with leave your Light, and
it's just an opening a question basically, what do you
(42:22):
want people to know? Oh? I love that.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
It's hard to drop one nugget of light. This is
like leave your lights.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
You can just whatever comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Yeah, man, there's so I mean, there's just so many
lessons that I've learned coming out of this season of
making this record. And I think I think the biggest
lesson that I had to learn was to tune out
(42:57):
the other voices and to get rid still and to
try and ask myself what it is that I want.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
That what I found was some of those things were scary,
but that even if I marched into that and pushed
into that, like marching into the scary places. And I've
heard that other people say this to it, it always
results in growth. Yeah, it always results in you becoming
(43:29):
a little bit better version of yourself, even if you
fall flat on your face, like, you're gonna learn and
you're going to grow. And so so I think the
takeaway is that choosing to just really believe in yourself
and take a chance on yourself because we only get
(43:49):
to do this like life thing right, like one time?
Like why not do all the things that you can
come up within your brain?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
And if they are scary? What what's the worst that
can happen?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
What is the worst? What do we think the worst is?
I mean, what is the worst? It doesn't work? Is
it doesn't work out? Is it failure? Is that the
worst thing? I mean?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I guess we die, like we're going to do that anyways, Yeah,
but we fail?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
What is failure? You know? Because you put yourself out
there and you did something big, so right, there's a
payoff for that. There's a payoff there was.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
I was talking to my mom the other day and
like she's considering going back to school. She's sixty awesome,
and I just got real with her and I was like,
I'm like I feel some apprehension, like what's going on?
And she goes, well, I am just a little scared.
And I was like, well what She's like, I'm afraid
I'll fail. And I was like, what happens? Is that? Really?
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Like play it out?
Speaker 3 (44:50):
She's like I don't know, and she was like, I
guess other people would think I'm a failure, and I.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Was like, well, it makes fun of me or laugh at.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Me, and like it was interesting because it was It
was a conversation I was having with her, but I
was really having it with myself.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I think everybody kind of has these things in life.
They're like, what if I did this?
Speaker 2 (45:07):
I don't know. I don't know if I can, but
I think why not? I know, And I feel like
there's always someone in our mind who were scared, Like
I don't know, I can date back from like your childhood,
or someone that you've admired, or someone that you know
that Like for me, there's always like a few people
that I'm like, oh, they find out that I fail
and they don't even probably know I'm doing anything. Oh,
(45:29):
they're not thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I'm sure they're only thinking about themselves.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah, exactly what if they find out that I failed?
I'd be so embarrassed, But like they don't even care, right,
No one cares, No one cares. Yeah, just do your thing, man,
make your magic. I love it. Caitlin, amazing. So you
are on tour right now, on.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Tour, the Great Pretender Tour. It's a solo tour. It's
so fun, so just me and my guitar and piano
and stories.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Amazing, and then you're going out a little big ton
of George straight.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
I mean, just you know, good times, no baby, a couple,
you know, artists like that.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
What awesome. So you're so awesome, Caitlene, Thank you so
much for coming over. This is so amazing. I love
your album, loving music. I just love you. You're awesome.
And congratulate your nomination. You're gonna win. Oh my god, yes,
I just peeped. Okay, thanks Kaylen, thank you. Bye,
Add carl Lone. She's a queen and talking song. She's
getting really not afraid to feel the episode and so
just let it flow. No one can do we quiet.
(00:22):
Cary Lone is sounding Caroline.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Okay, I am so excited to be with Caitlin Smith.
Hello in my house. I'm so happy to be here. Yes.
So it's a beautiful day, the sun shining. Yeah, and
here we are drinking coffee, drinking coffee, trying to set
up in home camera studios. You're looking great, thanks, new
album out man. So we recorded. We did a podcast
(00:50):
right when the pandemic hit and you had just released
super Nova, right and that was like a bittersweet moment
for you. I feel like, because you had made this
beautiful album, the pandemic hit, it.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Was it was like maybe more bitter than sweet. It
was a bummer because bummer.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Life can be such a bummer something. But it was
a bummer for everybody I know. But it's like, but
that was my bummer. Tell me about that bummer because
I think about like all that it takes to like
put your heart and soul into this music career and
everything that you have to give to this career. These
(01:28):
songs to bring them to life and your performances and
it's just everything, and then to have the bummer of it.
How do you move past that? Because you did? You
did move past that and you made another album High
and Low amazing.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Remember we had a big year planned for twenty twenty
with the release of Supernova, and I was gonna I
was on the road with a Little Big Town. We
were going to do Marion Morris tour. Like it was
just going to be a big, big, fun time, right,
oh man? And that tour lined up too, Yeah, is
it just a good way?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You don't have to get the next door? It's so
sad and.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
You know, and so really like I took the weekend
because we were in Detroit getting the night before we
were supposed to play a Little Big Town and they
canceled the whole tour. I was having Martini on a
pink velvet coach.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
It's like it felt like a movie. So my manager
I was like, Letten, kid, you gotta get a rental car.
You gotta go home. I'm like, I was like, do
you're actually ready to start the whole tour?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Were like we were in we were there to start
another run to start another run and get ready to
promo the record.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I was going to go to New York all the thing.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Anyways, I do remember just getting in the rental car
my husband and I and drive in and just wanting
to be back with our babies, and you know, it's
feeling like okay, let's just get to them feel safe.
And then it was definitely a morning period.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Of like, oh, this sucks.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
We had like big plans and and and you know,
so I cried a lot. But then I also turned
to writing, like pretty much right away. I called up
some of my best friends and I was like, hey,
what are you doing. Yeah, let's stop looking at the
news and let's just like write.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And so did you write a lot of this new album?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
A lot of this new album was written on zoom
kind of in that period of like of the Low Really.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I love this album because it's like the highs
and the low man lately that song, I'm like, these
songs are anthems and Hi, because Miley Cyrus got that
song too, she did you write anthems like songs that
move you to your core? Man? Well, thanks, tell me
(03:39):
how I came about because I know you produced this
yourself and you, which is huge, I mean huge, congratulations,
thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
It was like something I've always been curious about, but
I didn't really I didn't see any other female artists
like doing it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Especially I moved to down thirteen years ag go.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There was nobody, no but from Minnesota, and there was
nobody producing their own records, no females. And I was like, Okay,
well maybe that's just not a thing that I'll do,
but you always wanted to.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I always wanted to, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And after years of like doing my own demos and
kind of like making other records, being kind of you know,
letting other wonderful producers take the reins, like I learned
so much. It was just a sponge from these people.
But when I came to this record, I was just
I was doing a lot of my own demos at
home because I had to, and kind of playing around,
(04:36):
and I was like I missed this, Like I got
like I it brought me back to this space of
being sixteen years old and I had like a pro
tools rigged in my basement and my dad my brother
was in my band, and my dad like filled our
basement with music instruments and so I would just come
home from school high school and just play and make stuff,
(05:00):
and like it was a space that like was really
really happy at that point of my life. But you know,
I kind of lost it, right, It's easy to lose it.
I lost that and so kind of COVID forced me
to just like find it again, find it again, which
is kind of cool. And then I was like, wow,
maybe I maybe I want to do something like this
for my next record. And a good friend of mine,
(05:22):
Jenda Silvia, who we wrote high together maybe in another life,
like we've written a bunch of a bunch of the
songs on this record in the last one. She's an
incredible writer but also like a badass producer, and she
was like such a voice of like, girl, you can
do this, Like just try it. What's the worst that
can happen? Like you just it sucks and you start over.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Because that's a real moment there, Like we're saying it
quickly in this conversation, and you're like you have this
friend encouraging you want to do it. You're like, Okay,
I'm gonna try. But there's a lot of feelings behind that,
because to do something like that where you're putting yourself
out there, right, you're not going to produce your own album.
And I read another interview that you did. You said
you could feel like the actual like growing pains are
like the te It was uncomfortable getting through it, getting
(06:06):
through it, getting comfortable through that growing pain, getting through
that step that is the hardest because you're coming toe
to toe with your fear in that moment, in my fear,
like in my insecurity really is what it was, and
you're like literally walking right into it.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Like literally just having to sit and look at it
and go through it, like, Wow, I'm really insecure and
I don't I have to direct this band in how
I want this song to come out, and I don't confident.
I'm not really sure, and and it.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Just was like just die, how do you start that process?
Like how do you even start walking through that? Because
that is a huge.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I mean, I think like I tried to prepare on
the front as much as I could with just like
becoming a student of like production and just listening to
my favorite records and like listening to drum sounds and
listening to guitar tones and listen you know, like the spaces,
you know, and like just taking notes, right, and I
(07:06):
made like a playlist of like, well, this is the music.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That moves me.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I mean, it is a plethora of artists, so it's
it's everything from Whitney Houston to Harry Styles to Wilco
to Eda Eda James to a Vacacidy to Patty Griffin
Dixie Chicks.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Like literally, it's kind of all over the map, but
I feel that in your music, but it's kind of
all in there, right, It's like, oh yeah, this sounds
like Harry Style, like background vocal moment, and this sounds
like this fiddle kind of reminds me of the Dixie
Chicks a little bit, but also a little bit like
will go. Like it's kind of all in there. And
so anyways, I just I studied, and.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I I leaned into what I loved. And then I
also got a great engineer that can really walk alongside
of me.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And so.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I was listening to these records and I was like,
who is engineering these? Like I was listening to Stapleton
record and I saw the name Gina Johnson, and so, uh,
some friends of my, like a friend of mine introduced us.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We got coffee. So turns out this girl and I
love that it's a girl. I love that it's a girl. Right,
there's no girl engineers, like hardly all of course that's
what you love, is yeah, exactly. Well, turns out that
she's from Minnesota, on the town that my grandparents are from.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So like not shocking, instant kindred spirits. And so the
great thing was is Guina. Guina is an incredible engineer.
She also has like a great producer like her as well,
and so she was like, you can do this, and
I like, I'll help you. And so she really was
like the wind beneath my wings and this project and so,
you know, having this kind of support team. I also
(08:50):
like in this period of this record, like switched over
a bunch of my team and actually unintentionally just changed
it to a lot of women. And so I've I
landed in the space of like just surrounded by a
lot of support and safety, like a safety net. And
it was really a beautiful place to be because I
(09:10):
think it also like it enabled me to crack myself
open in a different way, like I think of like
practically what that means is like let's say I was
in the studio cutting vocals.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And Guina and we did it at Guinna's house.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
She's got a space in East Nashville and she's got
like a little room that she does vocals in. It
doesn't have any windows. It's just like so you can't
see her, you can't see anything.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Is that nice? And it was?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It was like kind of game changing to me because
like I didn't then I could. I didn't have to
like put makeup on, go to the studio. Yeah, Like
even just being surrounded by women, you don't realize how
much your guard can come down. Yes, Like you know,
because I'm like, oh, if it's a dude, like I
kind of want to you want to brush my teeth,
I'm gonna like at least comb my hair. I don't know,
(10:05):
like yeah, just be a little more presentable. But I
just feel like that that that kind of was a
domino effect unhinge a little where it's like, okay, so
I'm in this room where no one can see me,
and like I felt like I was able to just
be as raw as I ever have a vocal booth,
cry you know whatever, like do whatever weird things I
(10:27):
need to do with my body to get no one's
watching you, nobody's watching me. It's just for myself, where
it's like all the other times I made records, like
people are watch can see you, or whoever can see you,
the engineer can see you, and it's like you're still
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Being observed.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
And so it was so interesting to be in that space.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Because no matter how incredible of an artist you are,
which you are the most incredible, you still are influenced
by people. To have no influence of eyes watching you
when you're putting, when you're putting your vocal out there
in the most raw form, that has to be just
(11:06):
a huge liberating experience.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It was so liberating, I mean even being able to
take take these files, put them on my own computer
and like edit, you know, spend the whole day like
editing strings, and like nobody else is there.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
It's just me and these strings parts, and like take
all the big nobody's looking big machine away from it.
So they take the big machine away and just get
down to like what do I like? You? Just you?
So this was for you? This album was yours? Really? Yeah,
I mean people can always say all the music they
make is for themselves, but like then all the different
people can involve, producers, robles, everyone has an opinion. This
(11:45):
one was yours.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I mean it was and and and if I'm like,
let's go back to like, hey, we were talking about
super Nova. Like if I think about that time period,
like think about the whole I've made three records on Monument,
you know, and I'm made LA Label the first record
I made before.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I signed with the label, and then they bought the record,
put it out and thats called and it's called Starfire Starfire,
And then with super Nova, all of a sudden, ever,
there were a lot of voices, so opinions. Starfire kind
of a similar experience to High and Low because you
made it on your.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Own, because it made it on my own. It was
just me and and Paul Molk was a brilliant produce.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Oh he's so great.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
He's a genius and so and we just were like,
let's like, let let's just pick songs that we love
and let's make it. Make it sound like we love
no pressure. So it was like a no pressure record.
So proud of it. Super Nova, I was like, Okay,
there's a lot of voices. I don't know what to
do coming off of like the success of Starfire, and
so I made a lot of that record in LA
(12:49):
And I also instead of doing the hard thing of
just like listening to myself, I started listening to a
lot of other people.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I found myself chasing it's so easy, like, oh, if
you just made it, it's a little bit more like
the like a little bit more like a del a
little bit more like that, then we could get it
on AC radio or like whatever. So then there's like
voices and like agendas. Isn't that so interesting because I
feel like all of these people that we get on
our team or whatever, they're here to help, Yeah, but
(13:17):
they also come with their own very strong ideas and
opinions about you. Who is now like you're not just
a person anymore, and you're not an artist. You are
like a brand. You are a product, and it gets viewed,
it starts getting put through that and like it just
happens over and over and over again to incredible artists,
Like it just always happens, and it's just it's you
feel like, oh, it's not gonna happen to me or whatever,
(13:38):
but it just it's almost impossible not to.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Happen, really hard, And I think, well, another thing happened
during that second record was that after kind of after
we kind of came out of the COVID season, I
re released the album, but I put on a little
duet with featuring Old Dominion. Oh yeah, so this opened
the door then for me to go to country radio,
(14:02):
which was awesome and like had that ride good times.
But then but coming off of that, I definitely felt
this pressure to like, oh, we'll have to make another
radio song. I have to make something that radio is
gonna want to play. So I definitely, like, you know,
so there's definitely some chasing in that season. And you know,
(14:24):
Downtown Baby is a part of High and Low because
it's part of it's part of this journey, right, and
it is a part of me. I love to just
get drunk and crazy in New York. That's what the
song's about. And so but it is a part of
like that last bit of me, like chasing. Yeah, before
(14:46):
kind of that song was before kind of just.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
On the album. Okay, interesting you say that because I
was listening to your album and that one did feel
like the most commercial one, right yeah, which just feels great.
It's a great song.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
But yeah, okay, I chase properly, thank you, And we
definitely we went to country radio with it, and the
hard thing was just like I was like, I like
this song, but.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
It's also not like the song Sword that I want
to die on? Which song Sword do you want to
die on?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I mean like maybe in another life, but it's a
ballad and no one wants to play a ballad or
life and you know, or high but like no one.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Like did demograph that song? She put it on a
plastic arts record? Yeah, yeah, right, I mean, oh my god. Okay,
so you and I obviously love you and I've stalked
to you a lot about this album though, but you're saying
you said, Alaska is getting a lot of response and
that song like cut me to the core, man, thank you?
Where did that come from? It's actually like.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Shocking to me how many people toasting about it and well.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Because like who in a marriage or whatever hasn't like
hit moments where you're like, oh my god, what are
we going to drift apart? Or what is this? What
are we doing?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
And this is it's one of the real songs I
probably ever released, and the RAS songs too. It's the
raw song in the record because it's like the pain
that I'm closest to out of all of the songs,
there's a lot of memories I dig into, but like
that's that's the most how do you mean in the
sense of like Roll and I, you know, being in
(16:20):
Minnesota was really isolating over COVID and it was really
hard and I'd say, like a winter came and it
got cold in all senses of the word, right, and
we really just we went through a hard time. And
but we've been married thirteen years and it's like that's
what marriages is, just a series of hiens and lows
(16:43):
and working through it, but just getting really vulnerable and
raw about about the distance that we were experiencing.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Like I mean, it was hard stuff to say out loud.
How was he with it?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
But he I played in the song. I was afraid
to play in the song a little bit, like because
I was like, this might hurt his feelings. I played
played in the song, and he said, this is an
incredible song. It's like the first response, he goes, it's
really hard to hear, but it's really good.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And I was like, thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
I'm sorry, but how amazing that you can put those
feelings into a song, you know, instead of like into
like a big fight or instead of into more distance
or instead of into whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It's like you can actually put it into a song.
That's so right, because it's like marriage is like Michael
and I've been married. Now we've been I don't even know.
I think it's are we like nine years, ten years?
I've lost track. We've gone through some major highs and
those and that is what marriage is. It's like literally
walking through this life with someone and sometimes you're at
(17:48):
the freaking soaring like a shooting star in the best time,
and other times you're like, holy shit, like this sounds
like some serious heavy like duff, wait, I'm with you.
Oh oh, and then you have a family which you love.
But it's like totally, it's just a lot, and I
think it's a beautiful It's the most beautiful thing. And
(18:08):
it's like when you get on the other side of
the lows, it makes your marriage so much stronger and
you're it's that's something to be so proud of. But
like you got to weather the storms.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Totally, and it's I mean that one was a doozy,
but we got a really good therapist I feel so
grateful for and we started doing this.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Have you ever heard of e f T therapy is
that where you like rewire your brain.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Emotionally focused therapy, Well, I mean, I guess it is
some sort of rewiring, but it's really more like really
getting to the empathy, to that empathy with each other,
and I don't know it. It definitely changed the entire
way that we talk to each other in our marriage,
and I feel so grateful for that. I want to
(18:52):
tell everybody about it. Everybody go check out EFT. I'm
a big, big fan, so awesome. Yeah, but thank God
for therapy and also a songwriter husband that understands that
sometimes we just gotta write our way through it.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
And I think that that's what I really admire about
your songs too. Is And I was actually talking to Alley,
who is no longer my intern anymore because she's graduating
from college, but she's been my intern for the past
few years and it's been amazing. You're one of those
artists to me that is like you've had this strong
(19:32):
current about you for a long long time, Like you
you're one of those artists that like you have such
a force with you, like and you're so your music
is so powerful. You've had so many cuts for other
artists like the Big Cuts. You've been on huge tours,
you have made great music. You just got nominated for
ACM like New Artists, New Female Artists a year. You've
(19:54):
had this like rumble, this strong rumble forever, you know,
Like and you see some people like a Morgan Wallen
or something, they like shoot up in there an arenas
like it like within two years or whatever. But it's
like that doesn't happen for everyone. But like you have
this like just this solid just I don't even know
how to describe it. It's like you're just so good.
(20:16):
It's like you're etched in the history books already. That's
like how great you are. And it's like you keep
having amazing things happen. But it's I mean, it's not
like you're singing. You are singing national anthems all the places,
you know, but it's not like you're selling out arenas yet.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
But it's like you have to trying to sell a club.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
But you have this greatness that you just carry with you,
and it's you're one of those people that is just
this artist. You are just born to be an artist.
Your music is incredible. Everyone who finds you feels it
and knows it. Other artists see. It's like have you
just always known because you're just one of the ones
that was born great. I feel like that's really nice.
(20:56):
I feel like some people can have some hits and
have like some big b of lightning and flashes, but
not everyone is just born great, and a lot of
those people are great too. I'm probably mumbling and like
not even saying this correctly. I'm trying to basically say,
you are just You're just so nice. The the threads
that make you up are just so powerful. It is
(21:18):
like a Patty Griffin. It is like a Laurie McKenna.
It's like that, but plus it's then the soaring ballads,
and it's just you're just a really special artist man.
And you're a songwriter on top of it, Like you
have the songwriter element too, like the depth of songwriting.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I mean, I I don't know, Like when I look
back at my career, I see it as a long
and winding road for sure. And you know, when I
first came to Nashville, I think I was sixteen, sixteen,
sixteen years old.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
It's a long time. Did your parents come with you?
My mom? Did did you move here? Nope.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
We just took a trip and I remember like wanting
to go because I had made a little record, independent record,
and that's where you go as Nashville. And like at sixteen,
I remember thinking, I'm going to get a record deal
this year and I'm gonna start touring, like I just
I wanted it like so early, and so like I
(22:18):
saw the whole picture as like a kid, you knew it.
I knew it, but it's just like definitely doesn't just
turn out where you walk into town and get a
record deal. And it was a long and winding road
to get to where I could really step into my
artist's shoes. But I remember on that trip, you know,
(22:41):
fall in love with music city, but also seeing that
it's songwriter city and there's this whole community of creators
that just write songs for people. And then I saw,
you know that while all of my favorite artists that
have had long lasting careers have consistently released great songs,
they either write them and they cut them, and so
(23:04):
you know, as a teenager, I was like, Okay, then
I need to figure out how to write great songs.
So it was a million trips back and forth for
years and years. I finally signed my first publishing deal
then at twenty three, So it was a long it
was a long journey, wow. And I played bars and
churches and whatever I could in Minneapolis to save up
some money. So I was playing like the music circuit
(23:25):
up in Minnesota, and then I would come and crash
on couches in Nashville. And so you're dedicated. And so
I was dedicated at a really young age. But all
that to say, like even at twenty three, signing a
publishing deal, I was like, Okay, writing songs. This, this
really is Plan B. Like I've always wanted to be
(23:47):
the artist. The crazy thing is is like my Plan
B with writing kind of took off, like unexpectedly.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
What was your first big one that took off? First?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
My first big cut was Jason Aldan on the My
Kind Of Party record, which is like it went like
four four times platinum or something. It was like it
was a massive record, and so like what happened?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
And I was probably twenty gosh, twenty four, twenty five somewhere,
so that's like exciting. It was so exciting. It was
crazy exciting, like oh my gosh. And then I was
like right after that, it was like Rascal Flats and
then like Kenny and Dolly, and like there's a series
of like yeah, in like a.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Year of time, like all these cuts.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
You ahead, just Meghan Trainer and John Legend. That was later. Yeah,
that was a big hit.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
That was huge. That still plays the bills. Thanks Megan,
Thanks John. Yeah, I feel grateful for that. But it's
like this whole writing thing.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
It's like are you pitching your songs or are people
just hearing it well other like publishers are publishers are
or you're in the room with the artists and writing
with them just depends.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
But I mean that was so fun, like kind of
living in this space of songwriter. But I'll tell you
a few years in and after kind of getting a
handful of those cuts, it got to give the songs away.
So I was going around record labels and like pitch
playing that my songs, hoping that like, hey.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
They must sign me. I signed me.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I'm like, this is such a great song. We just
signed such and such act from the voice do you want?
Can we please put this on there?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Like a dream killer. It was a total dream kill
because here you are with this like a nomal voice
and you're the songwriter and you're an incredible artist, and
you're like, why are you not seeing? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
It was very hard and so they're like so I
was like, yeah, they can cut that because I was like,
I like, I like making money.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I guess, so like sure, But it has to be
so frustrating because you're such an artist and like here
and I'm no dogging on people from the voice or
anything like that, but it's like you've been doing this
for so long. You are so rich and rooted in
your artistry and you're so great at it, so just
to get like skipped over for the hot flash, it's
(25:56):
just so frustrating. That's where this town can break you. Yeah,
in so many ways.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's so that is like it is a hard thing,
but it's like it's also like a continual it's been
a continual lesson of just keeping my blinders on, which
is very hard for me. I look around a lot,
and this town looks around a lot. How is this
person's career going? Oh what are they doing?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
What do they do? Oh? Why do they have that?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
And it's like kind of this yucky narrative that happens
in this town. But it's like it that's a joy stealer,
and I I've like had to continually remind myself to
just stop looking around and just keep my head down
and focus on making great music and just keep taking
baby steps forward, right, keep climbing the mountain, because like
(26:43):
the things that that you know would be great to
have sure radio hit or a big big song just
pops off, or you have that moment and like cool,
now you're selling a ton of tickets, and like those
are like I like to think of them like one
ups on a video game or like you know, Mario,
we can like skip all the levels. It's lightning in
(27:04):
a bottle, like, and some people get so lucky and
that happens. It happens right away, and it's so exciting.
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
But also, like you know, some artists that I love,
like I think of like Brandy Carlisle. Oh my god,
that girl like just marched.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
She marched with the beat of her own drum and
she just just kept making great music, kept showing up. Yeah,
And I mean what she was on record like five
or six until she got recognized for like by the Grammys.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I have to think about this crazy way though, I
really have to think about it. This way because like
being a former artist, my husband, being an artist, like
just going through so many things in life now at
this point, Like I'm twenty forty this year, and I like,
I look, I look at life so differently than I
did when I was twenty, when I was nineteen and
I moved to this town. Because when I was nineteen
(27:52):
and I moved to this town, it was all about
the accolades. You know. It's like getting the record deal,
getting the single, getting the box, getting the getting the chores,
getting the fame, being the starlet, all that stuff like
that is what felt like success was right. And now
here I am twenty years later, being in this career
for so long, seeing so many creatives like yourself, myself,
(28:13):
just walking this walk for twenty years and seeing the
people who all different forms of success, all different forms
of talent, all different forms of creativity being expressed. But
it's like maybe it's not the best to jump the
levels and get the huge success in the beginning, because
you get it and like all of a sudden you
have this recognition, but like that kind of recognition and
(28:36):
that kind of extreme fame like that can really wreck
your life, it is, and create a ton of problems.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Shocking, you know, I've heard I've had a lot of
friends where it's been like very quick, and it's like
it's it's jarring, it's really jarring.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
It can really like, yeah, damage you in other ways,
you know. And so it's like sometimes when you do
have them more slow and steady, just committed to your talent,
to your greatness, when you do get moment like Brandy
had at the Grammys, it's like she's ready. She's so ready.
She is She's been knocked down so many times. She's
not glamored by any of it. She's not scared to
(29:12):
use her voice how she wants to, you know, like
you get past all those things that will like maybe
weigh you down if you're trying to like hang on
to the rocket ship, right, But when you lose the
rocket ship or when you don't ever have it, you
then really build you who you are as an artist.
That's so beautiful. It's a pain in the ass though,
(29:34):
the life out of you. And it's like, I mean,
I'm my first record. I've got a song called this
Stone is Killing Me, and it was like, you know,
kind of about the journey of trying to get the
record deal and trying to like get people to notice,
and just it wasn't happening.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
And so that was like my heartbreak song to Nashville.
But it's interesting how I still like very much can
pull that song up and be like, oh I still
feel this right now, and like, how, oh it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I don't know. It's all it's the same game. And
then I think it changes so fast. It changes so fast,
I know, like like over COVID, like those past two years,
like it became a TikTok town overnight, and then all
of a sudden, if you're not saying, if you're not
a huge on TikTok, you're not getting signed. It's like
you can get lost in the new hottest trend or
the new hottest thing. It's like I remember when American
(30:21):
Idol came out. If you weren't on American Idol, you
weren't gonna get signed. So true, it's always a hot
flash in the pan, but.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's like, Okay, there's the game that everybody plays. But
then but then like if you zoom out, like I
think the people who changed the game, the people who
last voices that last they didn't play by the rules.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And that's you. They played by their own game. That's
what I was trying to tell you. It's my jumbled
jargon of speech. Earlier, you're playing your own game, play
their own game, and maybe music for yourself because you
love it, because it's your art, right, And that's what
artistry is like. It's like really expressing what's in your soul. Right.
(31:08):
It takes a lot of bravery to do that.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
It really does, but also takes practice. It takes practice
to crack yourself open in that way and live in
that space. I don't know, I notice say, I feel
like I've been practicing a lot.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I know, I'm like, literally i feel like a wet
dog right now. I'm looking at my hair and my
hair is a reflecting I feel I'm just gonna check
the time I feel. I just feel I feel burnt
out lately, Like I just feel like not unin like
I'm not uninspired because I'm like continuously inspired by like
creatives like yourself, Like talking to you, like it's like
(31:44):
a jolt of energy for me. I always feel so
inspired having these kind of conversations because like getting to
be in the room with dreamers who are like doing
their dream and like going for it and going through
the fire and like having the highs and the lows
and like actually just like doing it that it is
just this the noblest to me. It's just like that
is just the bravest, most noble thing you can do
(32:05):
to express your soul. And it takes everything you have,
So like I find that so incredibly inspiring to like
be next to you and talk to you and like
get to like hear your journey because it takes everything
you have to do it. But it's like, I just
that you get this season of burnout where I'm like,
I've been doing this, this is town for so long.
Michael's been doing this for so long. I have so
(32:26):
many friends, and it's like sometimes they're just like what
is it all for? Like what is that you have
it for? Then you just have to get back to
why you want to do it. Yeah, you get back
to your why. I mean, what's your why?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Burnout is a it's what is my why? I mean,
I want to live. I want to live. I want
to be fully a live person, right, And so what
that looks like in all the aspects of my life
is that you know that I could be the I
could just be the best version of myself, showing up
(32:59):
for myself, showing up for my husband, showing up for
my kids. And I want to create beautiful things. I
want to create man all the way down to like
building a garden, planting flowers, to writing songs, to painting
to whatever it is to making babies.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
But and then my hope is to just inspire other
people to do that too. I mean, very vividly remember
the people that I've met along.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
The way that have inspired me are some of us.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I mean early on, I think I'm like my grandma
and both my grandmothers my mom were such like beautiful artists.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
In their own ways.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
And then there was one wonderful woman named Marnie in
high school. She was like our youth group, like our
youth group pastor's wife, and she was like literally those
shining star like.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I was like, just need to be like her.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
And I just feel like I've had these pillars of
women in my life. Teachers my English teacher was like that,
which just like and I think when I when I
think back to all of like all these really important women,
it's like they just were unapologetically like shining.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
That's been hard for Okay, so the is it the
Great Pretender? Is that the Great Pretender? Okay? I relate
to that song so much because that has been me forever,
and I think that's why I'm in a burnout season
right now. That is I mean, yeah, because I finally
like quit trying to be something just for everyone perfect. Yeah.
Well that that song.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Kind of goes back to, like I think about I
don't know how you grew up, but like I remember,
we grew up going to church, and we'd be on
our way to church and we'd be like fighting in
the cars family, like I hate you, like screaming at
each other, and then my dad would be like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
We're here. Everybody put on your church face. Everybody look happy,
which is so funny because everybody, I'm sure every other
family pulling up to the church is doing that.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Everybody does that. It's ridiculous. And so it's like it
started at a young age. Also as a performer at a
young age, so it's like you're just like everybody wants
you to sing, everyone wants you to be on right,
And once you.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Start being the star kind of person at a young age,
then you're always supposed to kind of be.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Startar play something for everybody and it's like dance, dance,
clown like whatever it's like. And so I think that's
like kind of ingrained in me at least. And then
I think becoming a young adult and also like social media,
(35:49):
we all just like put on our filters and put
on our highlight reels and we don't really tell our
families what's going on. We don't really other families who
we are. We start hiding parts of ourselves because we're
afraid of what other people are going to think. Yeah,
and it's like we're all now guilty of just like living.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
With some sort of mask.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Yes, and it's like exhausting. That's what I found.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
It was like turning thirty six and I was like,
just like watching my last Give a Fuck fly Away,
and I was like I don't need to act like this.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Yeah, I felt the same thing happened to me so tiring.
I was like, I'm going back who am I trying
to impress? Who am I trying to repress? I'm going
back to dying my hair bland because I realized I
don't like it brown anymore. But like I literally was
like why am I dying my hair blonde? Why am
I getting botox? Why am I getting I last extensions?
Why am I wearing these types of clothes? Why am
I going on to every single event? Why am I
(36:48):
always people pleasing and going into a crowd in a
room and like work in the room so happy everybody?
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Pretty? Why is why am I doing this? Like I
finally was like what am I doing any of this for?
And who? Yeah? Because as soon as you step out
of the game, you're forgotten, So like, am I just
trying to keep up? Like what am I? I'm Yeah?
Do I just need everyone to always like me and
think about me? That's so exhausting.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
It's exhausting because because if you can just like give
yourself what it is you're looking for, whatever that is
probably approval, like telling yourself like you're you're good enough
just as you are with blonde hair or not, right, Yeah,
Like if you can just learn to like give that
to yourself instead of constantly need it from other people.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, like needed to hear oh my gosh, you're so great,
you're so talented, you look great, you're awesome, You're but
like what because I don't feel like I'm good enough.
If I don't hear that, yeah, I think it's I think.
I mean that's what it was for me. For me too.
If I don't get the validation, then maybe I'm actually
not great at anything.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I found a phrase when I was kind of doing
I went through a period like I think after I
have my kids, where I just did a lot of work, right.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I think the kids will do that to you. And
I was like, I need to be a better version
of what's going on here for myself and also for them.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I agreed, So I'm not just crazy mom, right, they
don't want to talk to anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
The way you are move out. Yeah, I feel But
like some of the work, I realized there's actually a
thing called affirmation addiction. And I was like, oh wow
reading and I was like this nams like me. I identify
with all of this.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Where it's just and I think that was part of
my my problem too, And like in this journey of
record making too, of like wanting to please everybody, wanting
everyone on my team to feel proud of me and
also heard and like seen, and so I would I'm
like constantly asking what everybody else wants.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
To make sure you're the temperature of the Room's all good.
Everybody good, good, everybody happy, like everybody with me? Are
you an enneagram three? I'm a four, so I like
live at the bottom of the drain and my feelings
it's terrible. I do not wish a four on anyone.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing. How he's a four. I
have a little four wing. I have a four wing. Okay,
so you know a little bit. But I'm a three.
(39:07):
To be hard. To be a three achiever, I mean
the three. So that's the people pleaser, and you always
gotta be going, going, doing doing, like the next thing,
next thing, checking the goals.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I am not successful until I check off twenty things
on my list today.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
That's hard. That's exhausting. That's exhausting.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
There's lots of work to be done.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Okaylyn, I think you're doing an amazing job. And I'm
just so so so inspired, like proud for you, like
that you did this album yourself, and like you were
so real and so vulnerable and like you talk about
like the things that go on in our minds and
mental health, and like you're just like literally I feel
(39:48):
like you just keep stepping into your greatness with more
and more with each each move that you make, and
it's so cool to see you always are getting It's
not about the validation, but I mean it is because
like you do this and you want it to be received,
So it's like, yeah, I want people to hear it. Yeah,
(40:09):
but you're doing this authentic, real stuff and you're getting
it's getting received. Like that's the thing that is so awesome.
It's like you're being you and like you're not chasing it.
You know, I don't feel like you are. I feel
like this is like just as real nice as you can.
I don't feel like I'm too tired to chase. I'm
(40:29):
chasing like a six year old the four year old around.
I can't have you chasing everything. Have you liked this journey?
Has it been Have you enjoyed the journey? When I
it's it's so funny.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Someone else asked me that the other day, and it's
like it's not very often that I sit still and
reflect back on like the whole like do I feel
how do I feel like this whole thing has gone
that I've I have liked this journey, all of it
highs and the low Oh, I mean for sure, the
(41:03):
lows suck.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Nobody likes the lows.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
They're kind of they're kind of like it's also like
you when you look on the other side, it like
it almost feels necessary, agreed, like because if I haven't
gone through those lows, like I wouldn't have grown in
this way to get me to this place.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
And so.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I mean, this record, writing this record and kind of
living and the highs and lows has really given me
space to honor both, which is good. I mean, yeah,
honoring the good things and the bad. I mean, for sure,
I wouldn't wish it. I wouldn't want to do it again.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
I know. It's like but it's like you've earned it,
you know. It's like you look back and it's like
it's like, wow, you really earned this totally. You've sucked
the marrit out of it, you know, yes, because like
you gotta have it all. You got it. Yes, this
dualistic world I think about all the time. I'm like,
I'm not cut out for this earth, Like i don't
know why I'm here in Earth school, Like this is
(42:02):
true school. Yeah, it's so hard, it's so hard, but
then it's it is beautiful on the other side and
like you being able to put it into music is
like such a gift for all of us. Thanks. Okay.
So I always wrap up with leave your Light, and
it's just an opening a question basically, what do you
(42:22):
want people to know? Oh? I love that.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
It's hard to drop one nugget of light. This is
like leave your lights.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
You can just whatever comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Yeah, man, there's so I mean, there's just so many
lessons that I've learned coming out of this season of
making this record. And I think I think the biggest
lesson that I had to learn was to tune out
(42:57):
the other voices and to get rid still and to
try and ask myself what it is that I want.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
That what I found was some of those things were scary,
but that even if I marched into that and pushed
into that, like marching into the scary places. And I've
heard that other people say this to it, it always
results in growth. Yeah, it always results in you becoming
(43:29):
a little bit better version of yourself, even if you
fall flat on your face, like, you're gonna learn and
you're going to grow. And so so I think the
takeaway is that choosing to just really believe in yourself
and take a chance on yourself because we only get
(43:49):
to do this like life thing right, like one time?
Like why not do all the things that you can
come up within your brain?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
And if they are scary? What what's the worst that
can happen?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
What is the worst? What do we think the worst is?
I mean, what is the worst? It doesn't work? Is
it doesn't work out? Is it failure? Is that the
worst thing? I mean?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I guess we die, like we're going to do that anyways, Yeah,
but we fail?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
What is failure? You know? Because you put yourself out
there and you did something big, so right, there's a
payoff for that. There's a payoff there was.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
I was talking to my mom the other day and
like she's considering going back to school. She's sixty awesome,
and I just got real with her and I was like,
I'm like I feel some apprehension, like what's going on?
And she goes, well, I am just a little scared.
And I was like, well what She's like, I'm afraid
I'll fail. And I was like, what happens? Is that? Really?
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Like play it out?
Speaker 3 (44:50):
She's like I don't know, and she was like, I
guess other people would think I'm a failure, and I.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Was like, well, it makes fun of me or laugh at.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Me, and like it was interesting because it was It
was a conversation I was having with her, but I
was really having it with myself.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I think everybody kind of has these things in life.
They're like, what if I did this?
Speaker 2 (45:07):
I don't know. I don't know if I can, but
I think why not? I know, And I feel like
there's always someone in our mind who were scared, Like
I don't know, I can date back from like your childhood,
or someone that you've admired, or someone that you know
that Like for me, there's always like a few people
that I'm like, oh, they find out that I fail
and they don't even probably know I'm doing anything. Oh,
(45:29):
they're not thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I'm sure they're only thinking about themselves.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah, exactly what if they find out that I failed?
I'd be so embarrassed, But like they don't even care, right,
No one cares, No one cares. Yeah, just do your thing, man,
make your magic. I love it. Caitlin, amazing. So you
are on tour right now, on.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Tour, the Great Pretender Tour. It's a solo tour. It's
so fun, so just me and my guitar and piano
and stories.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Amazing, and then you're going out a little big ton
of George straight.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
I mean, just you know, good times, no baby, a couple,
you know, artists like that.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
What awesome. So you're so awesome, Caitlene, Thank you so
much for coming over. This is so amazing. I love
your album, loving music. I just love you. You're awesome.
And congratulate your nomination. You're gonna win. Oh my god, yes,
I just peeped. Okay, thanks Kaylen, thank you. Bye,
Host
Caroline Hobby
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