This week on GET REAL Podcast...TERRI COLE!
Terri single handedly changed my LIFE.
She is a licensed psychotherapist/empowerment EXPERT all about helping women use BOUNDARIES to break cycles of over-functioning, over-doing, and over-giving.
IN THIS EPISODE, we talk:
• The myths about BOUNDARIES
• Secrets to overcoming CODEPENDENCY
• The importance of knowing your LIMITS
• Increasing AWARENESS
• How to create and maintain HEALTHY relationships
GO TO boundaryboss.me/getreal for Terri's downloadable guide diving even deeper into the power of boundaries and overcoming codependency!
Listen to TERRI COLE on GET REAL Podcast...NOW!
Stay tuned for our How-To Minisode on Thursday!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Caroline. She's queen and talking song. She's getting not afraid
of thing, So just let flow. No one can with
cry Caralin. This sounds Carol. So I this is a
(00:29):
really special day for me because I have had this
amazing opportunity in my life to meet a lot of people,
to learn from a lot of people. I am in
a very um healthy community with people who are also
like growing and very inspired people. But I was I've
(00:52):
been last year. Twenty twenty two was the year that
I did so much girl going and shed so many
old stories and broke so broke through so many blocks
that have been holding me back from my entire forty
years of life. And I just committed to self growth
last year. I committed to learning. I committed to finding teachers.
(01:16):
I committed to like having guidance. And so I ended
up signing up for Kathy Heller's Mastermind, who's one of
your friends, And she had a retreat in California, And
you came to that retreat and you had a conversation.
This is probably just your everyday conversation that you have
with the meeting of the minds, the minds that you
(01:39):
meet with. This is probably your regular conversation. But you
had a conversation with Kathy about boundaries, and you explained them,
and you gave examples, and you broke them down into
words that I could understand. And I literally at the
beginning of two I have always struggled with feeling like
(02:01):
not enough and worthless, and that's been like a huge,
my my like thing that I struggle with. And so
I was like, I'm I have a daughter who's three,
and I was like, I have a great platform. I
have amazing ways to shine lights. I was like light
to the world, and I'm like, I have to get
myself right, like I have to get I have to
figure out what it is. And I couldn't figure out
(02:23):
what it is. And I've been in therapy for years.
I had done every kind of therapy you can imagine.
I know there's something that I need to rewire, but
I just could never figure it out until you that
conversation that you had about boundaries. I felt after you
were talking and daring you were talking, I was like
(02:44):
having a full body like like not not like it's
just like it was going through my body so intensely.
I was like, oh my god, Oh my god, Oh
my god. Oh my God, like it clicks so much.
I felt like the man with the iron mask. I
felt like I had had an iron mask on my
head for forty years, and now all of a sudden,
I got a key and I could take the whole
thing off, and I was like, my whole world, I'm
(03:04):
not only a people pleaser, and like I have, I
thought I had all these boundaries because I have done
great things. I can trust my gut, but i've but
I have wanted the entire world to co sign that
I'm worthy and that they loved me and that they
approve of me, not just like certain people, the entire world,
harry everyone that I meet. That's why I got an
(03:25):
entertainment Instagram, like you love me? Do you love me?
I can read a room like nobody's business. I'm an impact.
I can do all these things, and so I would
just use them to make sure I was doing things
to make people love me so they could see me.
And it was exhausting and I was like breaking. And
it's not that I didn't genuinely feel these things about people,
but I was using it also so they could love
me back. Right, And you changed my life, like you
(03:50):
changed my life Jerry, I am not kidding, like change
my life. I've had some huge life moments and you
single handedly changed my life. Well that is some testimonial, sister,
and really really really really warms my heart to hear, honestly, like,
it's amazing how you can do exactly what you did. This.
(04:13):
It's a shift. And maybe you heard those things before,
maybe you heard them in different scenarios. But when the
student is ready, the right teacher appears. We have lots
of teachers along the way, but it was like you
being ready to make those changes that allowed you. I
believe to see that conversation as the key to the
(04:35):
iron mask that you could then take off. And isn't
it better? I felt? After that conversation, I had lunched
with another one of the girls in the Mastermind. He's
like a great mom wellness expert and like has a
book about mothering and she's just really wise and she's
(04:56):
about ten years older than me and I just so
there at lunch and I couldn't speak. I was like,
I I don't know how to like process what just happened,
like this, what this what this codependency was taking up
in my space in my brain was probably like eight
percent of the energy I have in my brain. And
so it's like, all of a sudden, I have all
of this space that just opened up because I realized
(05:16):
I have created little, tiny constructs in every single area
of my life with every person I meet with, every
person that I am in community with, and who's in
my life, even my daughter. I'm I was I'm a
codependent with like I literally figure out what people need
from me to get a response that makes me feel loved,
(05:37):
and then I just continually give that and give that
and give that. And I'm so fired up to be
in your presence. I literally realized I have created tiny
little ecosystems for everyone that I know and love, and
I've placed this in roles, and I like, have I
signed roles to what everyone's supposed to play. So I
have to uphold this little movie that I've made that's
not real, and no one else is playing in it
(05:57):
or in it but me, and I can just actually
stop all of it and just be myself and let
everyone else just be themselves. And I don't have to
save anyone. I don't have to turn a conversation a
certain way to make sure someone feels a certain way,
or I can just go in with my pure aligned
heart and let the freaking cookie crumble. For however, it's
(06:20):
gonna crumble with everyone in that room without me and
visibly trying to hold everyone together in this little net
that I have. It's like drop it like it. I
can't describe you the freedom that came after that conversation.
It's so amazing. And what you're describing, this is what
I experience over and over and over again with the
(06:43):
women in my practice, in my mastermind and my courses,
in people who listen to my podcast, people who read
the book Boundarybuss where they're it's almost like this profound
epiphany that we didn't know we had a choice. I
didn't even know it was happening. That was the thing
(07:04):
that was so baffling, is I knew there was something
wrong with me, not like a negative way, but I
knew I had a block, Like I knew there was
a big block because I had done enough work. I've
lived enough life. I've surrounded myself with incredible minds and
thinkers like yourself. I believe in higher thinking. I know
these things. So I'm like, why am I still feeling
so worthless? Like, this is not all adding up. There's
(07:27):
something going on in here that I cannot figure out.
And you, the Queen figured it, just dropped it on
me and I was like, Wow, that's it, that is it.
And I told myself I was going to find out
what this was. By the end of turning fort in July,
I was like, I am figuring this out. I'm not
going into a new decade with this old ship. Like,
(07:49):
I'm not doing it. So I just started going towards
all the teachers that were coming in my life and
I was led straight too. That's unbelievable. So how can
we share some of this goodness with your people? Oh? Man? Okay,
So where is the notebook that I took? Hold on,
let me grab this notebook just one second. Sure, I
took a note things that you were saying in this
(08:14):
interview that you did, and I'm just gonna read some
of them because they like blew my mind, and then
maybe we can break down some of your essential just
like enlightened people who have never even realized, like myself,
who had no idea that they were codependent, like literally
had no idea, just maybe some quick ways to like
turn on the light bulb like, oh, you may be
codependent if you do this. So you said this, You
(08:37):
said codependency is being overly invested in feeling states, outcomes,
circumstances of people in my life, to my detriment, high
functioning codependency doing all the things. This is me just
quietly in my head. I'm just mentally doing all the things,
not really physically. I'm just mentally doing all the things,
(08:57):
doing all the things for all the people and make
it look easy. Your baseline is you, it's your bid
for control of the outcomes, not having and this is
this is so true. This is like a reality check
not having the emotional courage to allow the chips to
fall where they may, like, let the people be who
(09:18):
they want to be, and then me step in and
support to the best of my ability. But like, it's
not my job to walk a tight rope to try
to keep everyone from falling. Like everyone is on their
own journey. Yes, it's also the part of the thing
with it if we back it up a little bit,
because I feel like there's a lot of missing information
(09:39):
out there and misunderstandings about boundaries and about codependency and there,
and they are just intricately connected. So according to me,
what are your boundaries, your preferences, your limits, your deal breakers.
So I think that right there, there's confusion. People think
(09:59):
there's a at midst about boundaries. People think, if you
have good boundaries, you're saying no all the time, you're
a bit, you're rejecting people, you're starting fights, you're none
of that is accurate. What it means is that it's
your own personal rules of engagement, letting other people know
what's okay with you and what's not okay with you.
So again, boundaries comprised of your preferences, your limits, and
(10:22):
your deal breakers. And these are the things we have
to communicate to people. And when we don't is when
we end up feeling so resentful. Um feel like other
people are really entitled that we feel put out. We
feel we're exhausted right because we're bleeding bandwidth endlessly because
people don't know. So instead of us being able to
say someone says, hey, you want to come help me move,
(10:45):
like for the fourth time in two years, you know,
And instead of you being able to go, actually, I'm
not available on Saturday. Good luck. I'll send you guys
some lunch or whatever. It is you would like to
do for your friend who moves a lot. Instead, we
get so pissed about how is Betty so entitled that
she would ask me to help her move? Again, I've
(11:06):
done more than my share, I've helped her more than
most of our other friends. Blah blah blah. We create
all of these narratives in these stories and these why
Betty isn't jerk now as opposed to simply saying I'm
unavailable to help you move. That's it. You don't need
to write a dissertation while you're unavailable. You don't need
to be right or wrong about being unavailable. You're just
(11:29):
sucking unavailable, And that is okay. When we do that,
all of that spinning out and that tripping out, and
that worrying about what Betty is thinking and doing, about
making Betty wrong for asking right, that's what we need
to do because we're so uncomfortable and simply asserting the
boundary that says I'm not available to help her move
(11:51):
because I don't come want to. I love her and
there are other people. You don't even have to be busy, right, literally,
you might just go no, I have done it. I
don't want to So that's boundaries. Now let's move this
into codependency. As you said from your notes. According to me,
codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes,
(12:13):
the decisions, that relationships of the people in our lives,
to the detriment of our own internal peace or maybe
our financial well being. Right, we're so invested in that
person not failing, we're giving them money, We're or our
emotional well being or our spiritual well being. In some
way it is detrimental to us, meaning we're not just
(12:37):
invested like normal people. Of course, we're invested in the
people we love. We want them to be happy. Obviously,
this is called being in healthy relationships. But when we're
overly invested, we feel overly responsible for their feelings, their situation,
their decision, their relationships, their circumstances. In a way, this
(12:59):
is where the dysfunction comes in. And what is that
comprised of? What does that mean? That means codependency is
built on disordered boundaries. Right, we are stepping over boundaries
all the time, feeling overly responsible, not realizing that we
are trampling on the sovereignty of other people because we
(13:22):
are compulsively doing what we're doing. We're not mindfully choosing
what we're doing. We're not meditating on what we should
do and then doing it. We are just jumping into
action because we're fear driven. There's a million reasons. So
with high functioning codependency, which is the topic of my
next book, which will come out in a year and
(13:43):
a half from now, why that why that topic? Why
did I create basically a new definition? Because if I
were just talking to you, you know, Caroline, if I
was just talking to you about codependency and dependent and
enabling behaviors, you would not see yourself there. You'd be
(14:05):
like dependent, What I'm doing all the things for all
the people. Yeah, I'm kicking depended, I'm opposite. Yeah, I'm
doing it all. I'm I'm doing TV things and I'm
doing this, I'm doing that. I've got these things that
I'm doing for other people. You wouldn't identify with it,
but your pain and suffering that you were experiencing before
(14:28):
Kathy Heller and I have that conversation that was directly
related to being a high functioning codependent. So one of
the major differences between regular codependency that we know about
and high functioning codependency is the level of competence. You
are an incredibly capable person. The women in particular who
(14:53):
were attracted to my work are that. So we make
it look easy. So No and is double checking in
on you to be like, yeah, I wonder how you're doing.
I wonder how she is. They're like, she's confined. It's
like everything in my orbit and life is going to
be functioning well. Like I'm not gonna let it drop exactly.
(15:15):
That's how I feel I relate to you. It's like,
if you're happening in my life and I'm responsible, you're
in my in my sphere, I'm gonna hold you up.
I'm gonna keep you held. But at what cost? And
that's what we were really talking about, Kathy and I
were really talking about, is understanding that functioning at that
level and in that way has a cost, not just
(15:37):
your health, not just your bandwidth, not to just your brain,
It has a cost to your relationships because when you
really think about it, high functioning or regular as codependency
is a covert or overt bid to control someone else's outcome.
(15:57):
You said this too, which stopped me in my tracks.
It follow what you're saying because you actually thought this
and said it. But you said this, and this is me.
This is so me, And I'm so cool, calm and
collected and casual about it too, Like I'm actually pretty
secret about how controlling I am. Like if you meet me,
I'm like all love and light and chill and I'm
like loving to like uplift and you know, I look
(16:20):
through easy breezy. But here is the truth of the
centure of me, which is what makes you think you
know what lessons every person needs to learn. You are
actually blocking the person from experiencing what that person needs
to experience. I what So, what I'm really doing is
inserting myself in the middle of others lives because I
(16:43):
think and this is the ego like check like whoa,
because it's true. I think that I know better for
everyone what they need to learn. And I was like, WHOA,
I do think that. That's why we're you know, now
recovering high functioning codependence. Where the awareness here's the key
(17:07):
that you talked about before having this realization, this is
now this You cannot There is no unringing that realization
bell that you had in that moment. None. You will
never go back to having those experiences being in the
basement of your mind, as I like to call it,
which is your unconscious mind. We all have these processes
(17:30):
that are going on unconsciously. But what we did together
in that meeting is I put on a little miner's
lamp on my head, I grabbed your hand, and we
walked down the stairs to the basement of your mind,
and we opened up a bunch of dusty ask boxes
and brought that ship to the main part of the house,
which is where we can turn the lights on and
(17:50):
open the windows and go, Okay, wow, this is what
I'm actually doing. Let me have compassion for myself. Let
me not shame myself and make myself feel bad about
I mean, listen, when I realized this in my late twenties,
I was embarrassed. I was humiliated. I was ashamed. I
(18:12):
was like, oh my god. I totally thought I was
like mother Theresa, and now I realized I'm like just
a control freak, and it was really all about me
being uncomfortable because that person's life is a freaking dumpster fire,
and that dumpster fire is really fucking with my internal peace.
That's what was going on. Oh my God, how you're
giving and you're giving and you're giving, and you're pouring
(18:34):
yourself out there and you're doing all these things and
you're really trying to be helpful and you're trying to
give great advice and you're trying to show up and
you're trying to be like, you'll get it. This is
the one I'm gonna hold your hand. But it's like, no, no,
you are trying to control that person's life and what
they're in and what they're learning and their their moment,
whatever season they're in, that's their lesson, and you pray
(18:57):
it comes on the other side. But it's like, how
could we think we know what's best? Well, but we do,
and and so many of us do. I'm writing a
fan book about it, like it is such a pandemic
speaking of that I saw in I mean, I've been
a psychotherapist for twenty five years and I've seen tens
(19:18):
of thousands of women in particular suffering from this, and
it didn't make sense the whole Just talking about codependency
didn't make sense because everyone thought I was talking about
you must be involved with an addict. It's all about
enabling behavior. It is so much more complicated than that,
and it is so much more pervasive than that. It's
(19:41):
not just about romantic relationships or enabling your parents who's
an alcoholic to keep drinking. No, no, and yeah, those
things fall under codependency too, But what we're talking about
is a completely different animal that is really born out
of the time in history that we live as women,
(20:03):
especially in the United States or in the Northeast, or
in any sort of developed country where it started in
the seventies, only in the seventies, late sixties, early seventies,
where women allowed to be more than a nurse, a teacher,
or secretary allowed to be. So of course the mindset
is programmed and been passed down, and this is why
we're the first ones that are starting to de program right,
(20:26):
and and to feel like we're gonna now, oh my god,
we're going to college, we're getting master's degrees, where we
are creating empires, careers on TV, changing lives, doing all
of this stuff. And nobody was like, oh, now I'm
going to pick up the slack at home, right, So
this whole superwoman thing that came about, right was like,
(20:50):
I don't want them to take away my ability to
be a doctor, a lawyer of frigging you know, Supreme
Court justice. Like I don't want that. So I don't
want there to be any problems. I want to the
the house is running great, the kids are on track
to go to ivy leagues or whatever whatever it is
that matters, because like it was so it was held
(21:12):
so it was like a carrot dangling and like if
you do anything wrong, you're gonna lose it. You have
to be perfect. Yes, So it's not like it came
out of nowhere. To a degree that my generation and
the generations younger than me and the generations one older
than me, I have this feeling that we must do
it all. So high functioning codependency has been bred through
(21:36):
the cultural changes that have happened, which is why it's
like now it's exploding in this way of doing more
emotional labor. How exhausted women are and how exhausted we feel,
and how it's so hard to rest, it's so hard
to ask for help, it's so hard to you know,
it's like we just feel like it's got to be me.
(21:58):
I gotta be doing it all. Thinking about how even
in my twenties and I'm in my fifties. Now it's like,
how you know, I'd be going to Europe or wherever
and the cab driver pulls up and I can't even
let the guy put my freaking luggage in the trunk.
He's like, I'm getting out. I'm like, I got it,
opening the thing, lifting the thing up and throwing and
(22:19):
I'm like there was so much habituated behavior and hyper
independence that comes along with this experience where maybe we
don't want to owe anybody ship that's possible, Maybe we
don't want to burden others because how much of the
time when you're a high function and codependants, so much
(22:40):
of the time we're sort of expert listeners and auto fixers. Right,
You're gonna tell me your problem, and I'm going to
have your solution. Most of the time f I with
my clients and my own experience, people are like, well,
how are you You're that great? Fine? Fine? Like I'm fine,
I don't know, I don't whatever advice you're going to
(23:01):
give a problem I gonna take anyway. But it's it's
sort of not wanting the focus in that way to
be on us because we're kind of take charge type
of people and we want to be in the position
that we're comfortable being in. But the cost to your relationships.
And I think that this is something that is not
talked about often, is that you're in the centering of
(23:25):
ourselves inadvertently, right Like I didn't. I wasn't some purposefully
doing that, and I know you weren't either, right, I mean,
and nobody listening to this if you identify as a
high functioning codependent, there's no do not, there's no shape. Right.
We're just taking this ship from the basement of your
mind and bringing into the main part of the house
so you can make shifts in your behavior. And the
(23:49):
first thing is understanding something that I had to learn
too that is worth holding a boundary for is spreading
myself of too thin, giving myself to everyone who asked
me for something because of what we're talking about. Because
I want to uphold this image of love and helpfulness
and kindness, because that is my heart. But it's like
(24:11):
I by doing that though, because I want to make
sure you keep that good image of me in your mind,
I am saying that the boundary or the space that
I was going to give myself to have like a
walk and outside and clear my head and to listen
to a fueling podcast, or you know, just actually have
some time to fill my wellness cup, which now I
(24:33):
am realizing is like the most important thing for all
of it. It's like you're saying all my needs are
not important at or or you're you're saying that like
I can't hold a space for what I actually mean,
I'm gonna just sacrifice that to make sure I can
keep everyone else loving me and this whole thing going.
And now I'm like, oh my god, if I if
I feel myself off at all, I have to find
(24:55):
the next spot in my day to give myself time
to recalibrate it, or else it just compas on each other.
You know, yeah, it's it absolutely does. And also the
real problem with all of this, with the over functioning
and the over giving and the over delivering, is that
we end up presentful. So the same people that we
say we care about, in the same people that we
(25:16):
want to hold us in all of this high esteem,
we start thinking they're idiots. We start being like Jesus,
why why does this person still need this from me?
Or why are they asking me for this again? So
in the beginning, it's almost like a high where we
can help and we can be the savior, we can
be the hero, and then that gets really tired and
you don't want to keep doing it. I created a
(25:40):
gift for your audience though, around codependency. So I'm going
to give you the EURA and you can put it
in the show notes called um they can they can
get it at Boundary Boss, Stop Me Forward Slash Get
Real also, and it's it's about the It's there's a
video and there's a downloadable guide because I want listeners
(26:02):
to be able to dive a little bit more deeply
into their personal experience. Because as much as I teach this,
your unique life experience is what made you you as
mine did me, and as every listener and watcher everyone
has a unique sort of downloaded boundary and codependency blueprint.
So this will help bring some of this to the
(26:23):
service for them. That's amazing, Terry. Honestly, you you change
my life and everyone listening to this. If you have
been unaware of boundaries, or if you thought you had boundaries,
if you had no idea, you are high functioning codependent,
like I had no idea that I was. I encourage
you to get her book I got your book. I
(26:44):
had your book not only in the book form, but
I also bought it on an audio book because I
just needed to have the option to listen to what
I was driving as well. When I started learning all this,
I'm like, I need this blooded in my brain seven,
Like I have to rewire my entire life, you know.
But it's been kind of excited because now that I
am so aware of boundaries, and now I'm so aware
(27:04):
of my alignment. Like I'm just so aware of like
when I feel like I'm in correct alignment with myself
and like supporting what my soul wants to do. And
so I feel now like when I do have moments
where I cross my own boundaries or I'm going back
to all behavior, I can feel it. And it's kind
of like this fun game to like pull it back
(27:25):
in and then to watch yourself do it the new way,
and then to see how a new situation unfolded. That
was so much chiller, better, more I could actually let people.
I could look at people and see them for who
they are and what they're saying instead of what I'm
projecting on them and how I'm trying to manipulate the
conversation and it's just like it's like your arms are
(27:47):
like this when you're trying to hold when you don't
have bounds. And then so you can just sit back
and relax and be like what, wow, what was I
doing for so long? And you realize people are actually
kind of like better than what you're giving them credit for,
you know, yeah, and they are whatever they're going to be.
What you get to do is replace control with really
(28:10):
like radical curiosity, yes, yes, like who are you actually? Like?
Okay here? And another thing I do with myself because
I do come in trying to make sure the room
is set in the right tone, and so I'll come
in with all my stuff and I'm trying to just
like walk in now and don't even talk, just like
walk in, be in the room. And I mean I
(28:32):
don't just all the time, but when I remember, I
always love it because it's like let everyone else lead,
let me see who everyone else is, what they actually
want to talk about. Instead of me exerting all this
energy to put this conversation out to get it all
going on, I feel like it needs to be just
like actually, why don't I take the sit in the
passenger seat and just get back. I don't have to
do anything here besides be myself. Yeah, and what what
(28:56):
a beautiful open energy to come into a room with
rather than this controlling energy, even if our hearts are
in the right place. So again, it's not there's no
meanness in being a high functioning codependent or having disordered boundaries.
It's simply dysfunctional. And it is not optimal for the
quality of your internal experience, your external experience, and your relationships.
(29:20):
That's it. It is not optimal. So if you want
deeply intimate relationships, and if you want deep success, that
feels like success because here's the thing. You could be
at the top of your game, doing all the things
for all the people, making all the money in the world.
But if you are doing it from a high functioning
codependent place, it's not going to feel good for long. Amen.
(29:41):
Amen to that. Yes, well, thank you for your wisdom,
thank you for the profound life changing effect you have
had on me. I just want you to know that
like your work and your commitment to this work, and
the way that you are sharing your work with your
book boundary boss, with the way you give podcasts and speak,
(30:04):
and the way you share and run courses. It is
so amazing and I am so grateful for women and
teachers and guides like you who have done this such
hard work on topics that we need to know, and
you have consolidated it for us and you can teach
it to us in ways that we can understand. And
it is just to have teachers and guides and mentors
(30:26):
like you in the world. It's such a blessing. I'm
so privileged to be in your orbit and in your
realm and to have learned from you. So everyone, y'all
need to pick up Boundary Boss. Go to that link.
Let's say the link one more time so everyone can
remember where to go. Boundary Boss dot me forward slash
get real awesome. I always wrap up with leave your
(30:46):
light and it's just super open ended. What do you
want people to know that they can do this? That
whatever level you're living at right now, if you are
not literally thrilled, there's more that you can do internal
work that will create a more satisfying, thrilling, rich life
(31:08):
experience for you. That is so key. Internal work. You
don't have to go change your life, change your house,
change your spouse, like abandon your kids and quit your job.
You can actually just learn this and shift your brain
in what, like you said, whatever circumstance you're in, and
(31:28):
by shifting your brain, your circumstances are going to shift
as well. Correct. Correct, you are amazing. Thank you so much,
Terry Cole. Like this was like a thrill when I
got back from Cathy's retreat and heard this conversation, and
then I realized that, like I was getting to have
a podcast with you. I was like, the universe loves me,
(31:49):
like I am on track, like I am aligned, Like
this is like too good to be true. I cannot
believe this is happening. I am so grateful. Thank you
so much. This was Honestly, I haven't so many podcasts
with so many amazing people, but this was one that
was I was so excited about just because you, Terry,
have changed my life, and I know you are community
(32:10):
so many people's lives, So thank you for coming on.
It was so awesome and if you're all in an
honor to get to talk with you, thank you so
much for having me. I appreciate you
Caroline. She's queen and talking song. She's getting not afraid
of thing, So just let flow. No one can with
cry Caralin. This sounds Carol. So I this is a
(00:29):
really special day for me because I have had this
amazing opportunity in my life to meet a lot of people,
to learn from a lot of people. I am in
a very um healthy community with people who are also
like growing and very inspired people. But I was I've
(00:52):
been last year. Twenty twenty two was the year that
I did so much girl going and shed so many
old stories and broke so broke through so many blocks
that have been holding me back from my entire forty
years of life. And I just committed to self growth
last year. I committed to learning. I committed to finding teachers.
(01:16):
I committed to like having guidance. And so I ended
up signing up for Kathy Heller's Mastermind, who's one of
your friends, And she had a retreat in California, And
you came to that retreat and you had a conversation.
This is probably just your everyday conversation that you have
with the meeting of the minds, the minds that you
(01:39):
meet with. This is probably your regular conversation. But you
had a conversation with Kathy about boundaries, and you explained them,
and you gave examples, and you broke them down into
words that I could understand. And I literally at the
beginning of two I have always struggled with feeling like
(02:01):
not enough and worthless, and that's been like a huge,
my my like thing that I struggle with. And so
I was like, I'm I have a daughter who's three,
and I was like, I have a great platform. I
have amazing ways to shine lights. I was like light
to the world, and I'm like, I have to get
myself right, like I have to get I have to
figure out what it is. And I couldn't figure out
(02:23):
what it is. And I've been in therapy for years.
I had done every kind of therapy you can imagine.
I know there's something that I need to rewire, but
I just could never figure it out until you that
conversation that you had about boundaries. I felt after you
were talking and daring you were talking, I was like
(02:44):
having a full body like like not not like it's
just like it was going through my body so intensely.
I was like, oh my god, Oh my god, Oh
my god. Oh my God, like it clicks so much.
I felt like the man with the iron mask. I
felt like I had had an iron mask on my
head for forty years, and now all of a sudden,
I got a key and I could take the whole
thing off, and I was like, my whole world, I'm
(03:04):
not only a people pleaser, and like I have, I
thought I had all these boundaries because I have done
great things. I can trust my gut, but i've but
I have wanted the entire world to co sign that
I'm worthy and that they loved me and that they
approve of me, not just like certain people, the entire world,
harry everyone that I meet. That's why I got an
(03:25):
entertainment Instagram, like you love me? Do you love me?
I can read a room like nobody's business. I'm an impact.
I can do all these things, and so I would
just use them to make sure I was doing things
to make people love me so they could see me.
And it was exhausting and I was like breaking. And
it's not that I didn't genuinely feel these things about people,
but I was using it also so they could love
me back. Right, And you changed my life, like you
(03:50):
changed my life Jerry, I am not kidding, like change
my life. I've had some huge life moments and you
single handedly changed my life. Well that is some testimonial, sister,
and really really really really warms my heart to hear, honestly, like,
it's amazing how you can do exactly what you did. This.
(04:13):
It's a shift. And maybe you heard those things before,
maybe you heard them in different scenarios. But when the
student is ready, the right teacher appears. We have lots
of teachers along the way, but it was like you
being ready to make those changes that allowed you. I
believe to see that conversation as the key to the
(04:35):
iron mask that you could then take off. And isn't
it better? I felt? After that conversation, I had lunched
with another one of the girls in the Mastermind. He's
like a great mom wellness expert and like has a
book about mothering and she's just really wise and she's
(04:56):
about ten years older than me and I just so
there at lunch and I couldn't speak. I was like,
I I don't know how to like process what just happened,
like this, what this what this codependency was taking up
in my space in my brain was probably like eight
percent of the energy I have in my brain. And
so it's like, all of a sudden, I have all
of this space that just opened up because I realized
(05:16):
I have created little, tiny constructs in every single area
of my life with every person I meet with, every
person that I am in community with, and who's in
my life, even my daughter. I'm I was I'm a
codependent with like I literally figure out what people need
from me to get a response that makes me feel loved,
(05:37):
and then I just continually give that and give that
and give that. And I'm so fired up to be
in your presence. I literally realized I have created tiny
little ecosystems for everyone that I know and love, and
I've placed this in roles, and I like, have I
signed roles to what everyone's supposed to play. So I
have to uphold this little movie that I've made that's
not real, and no one else is playing in it
(05:57):
or in it but me, and I can just actually
stop all of it and just be myself and let
everyone else just be themselves. And I don't have to
save anyone. I don't have to turn a conversation a
certain way to make sure someone feels a certain way,
or I can just go in with my pure aligned
heart and let the freaking cookie crumble. For however, it's
(06:20):
gonna crumble with everyone in that room without me and
visibly trying to hold everyone together in this little net
that I have. It's like drop it like it. I
can't describe you the freedom that came after that conversation.
It's so amazing. And what you're describing, this is what
I experience over and over and over again with the
(06:43):
women in my practice, in my mastermind and my courses,
in people who listen to my podcast, people who read
the book Boundarybuss where they're it's almost like this profound
epiphany that we didn't know we had a choice. I
didn't even know it was happening. That was the thing
(07:04):
that was so baffling, is I knew there was something
wrong with me, not like a negative way, but I
knew I had a block, Like I knew there was
a big block because I had done enough work. I've
lived enough life. I've surrounded myself with incredible minds and
thinkers like yourself. I believe in higher thinking. I know
these things. So I'm like, why am I still feeling
so worthless? Like, this is not all adding up. There's
(07:27):
something going on in here that I cannot figure out.
And you, the Queen figured it, just dropped it on
me and I was like, Wow, that's it, that is it.
And I told myself I was going to find out
what this was. By the end of turning fort in July,
I was like, I am figuring this out. I'm not
going into a new decade with this old ship. Like,
(07:49):
I'm not doing it. So I just started going towards
all the teachers that were coming in my life and
I was led straight too. That's unbelievable. So how can
we share some of this goodness with your people? Oh? Man? Okay,
So where is the notebook that I took? Hold on,
let me grab this notebook just one second. Sure, I
took a note things that you were saying in this
(08:14):
interview that you did, and I'm just gonna read some
of them because they like blew my mind, and then
maybe we can break down some of your essential just
like enlightened people who have never even realized, like myself,
who had no idea that they were codependent, like literally
had no idea, just maybe some quick ways to like
turn on the light bulb like, oh, you may be
codependent if you do this. So you said this, You
(08:37):
said codependency is being overly invested in feeling states, outcomes,
circumstances of people in my life, to my detriment, high
functioning codependency doing all the things. This is me just
quietly in my head. I'm just mentally doing all the things,
not really physically. I'm just mentally doing all the things,
(08:57):
doing all the things for all the people and make
it look easy. Your baseline is you, it's your bid
for control of the outcomes, not having and this is
this is so true. This is like a reality check
not having the emotional courage to allow the chips to
fall where they may, like, let the people be who
(09:18):
they want to be, and then me step in and
support to the best of my ability. But like, it's
not my job to walk a tight rope to try
to keep everyone from falling. Like everyone is on their
own journey. Yes, it's also the part of the thing
with it if we back it up a little bit,
because I feel like there's a lot of missing information
(09:39):
out there and misunderstandings about boundaries and about codependency and there,
and they are just intricately connected. So according to me,
what are your boundaries, your preferences, your limits, your deal breakers.
So I think that right there, there's confusion. People think
(09:59):
there's a at midst about boundaries. People think, if you
have good boundaries, you're saying no all the time, you're
a bit, you're rejecting people, you're starting fights, you're none
of that is accurate. What it means is that it's
your own personal rules of engagement, letting other people know
what's okay with you and what's not okay with you.
So again, boundaries comprised of your preferences, your limits, and
(10:22):
your deal breakers. And these are the things we have
to communicate to people. And when we don't is when
we end up feeling so resentful. Um feel like other
people are really entitled that we feel put out. We
feel we're exhausted right because we're bleeding bandwidth endlessly because
people don't know. So instead of us being able to
say someone says, hey, you want to come help me move,
(10:45):
like for the fourth time in two years, you know,
And instead of you being able to go, actually, I'm
not available on Saturday. Good luck. I'll send you guys
some lunch or whatever. It is you would like to
do for your friend who moves a lot. Instead, we
get so pissed about how is Betty so entitled that
she would ask me to help her move? Again, I've
(11:06):
done more than my share, I've helped her more than
most of our other friends. Blah blah blah. We create
all of these narratives in these stories and these why
Betty isn't jerk now as opposed to simply saying I'm
unavailable to help you move. That's it. You don't need
to write a dissertation while you're unavailable. You don't need
to be right or wrong about being unavailable. You're just
(11:29):
sucking unavailable, And that is okay. When we do that,
all of that spinning out and that tripping out, and
that worrying about what Betty is thinking and doing, about
making Betty wrong for asking right, that's what we need
to do because we're so uncomfortable and simply asserting the
boundary that says I'm not available to help her move
(11:51):
because I don't come want to. I love her and
there are other people. You don't even have to be busy, right, literally,
you might just go no, I have done it. I
don't want to So that's boundaries. Now let's move this
into codependency. As you said from your notes. According to me,
codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes,
(12:13):
the decisions, that relationships of the people in our lives,
to the detriment of our own internal peace or maybe
our financial well being. Right, we're so invested in that
person not failing, we're giving them money, We're or our
emotional well being or our spiritual well being. In some
way it is detrimental to us, meaning we're not just
(12:37):
invested like normal people. Of course, we're invested in the
people we love. We want them to be happy. Obviously,
this is called being in healthy relationships. But when we're
overly invested, we feel overly responsible for their feelings, their situation,
their decision, their relationships, their circumstances. In a way, this
(12:59):
is where the dysfunction comes in. And what is that
comprised of? What does that mean? That means codependency is
built on disordered boundaries. Right, we are stepping over boundaries
all the time, feeling overly responsible, not realizing that we
are trampling on the sovereignty of other people because we
(13:22):
are compulsively doing what we're doing. We're not mindfully choosing
what we're doing. We're not meditating on what we should
do and then doing it. We are just jumping into
action because we're fear driven. There's a million reasons. So
with high functioning codependency, which is the topic of my
next book, which will come out in a year and
(13:43):
a half from now, why that why that topic? Why
did I create basically a new definition? Because if I
were just talking to you, you know, Caroline, if I
was just talking to you about codependency and dependent and
enabling behaviors, you would not see yourself there. You'd be
(14:05):
like dependent, What I'm doing all the things for all
the people. Yeah, I'm kicking depended, I'm opposite. Yeah, I'm
doing it all. I'm I'm doing TV things and I'm
doing this, I'm doing that. I've got these things that
I'm doing for other people. You wouldn't identify with it,
but your pain and suffering that you were experiencing before
(14:28):
Kathy Heller and I have that conversation that was directly
related to being a high functioning codependent. So one of
the major differences between regular codependency that we know about
and high functioning codependency is the level of competence. You
are an incredibly capable person. The women in particular who
(14:53):
were attracted to my work are that. So we make
it look easy. So No and is double checking in
on you to be like, yeah, I wonder how you're doing.
I wonder how she is. They're like, she's confined. It's
like everything in my orbit and life is going to
be functioning well. Like I'm not gonna let it drop exactly.
(15:15):
That's how I feel I relate to you. It's like,
if you're happening in my life and I'm responsible, you're
in my in my sphere, I'm gonna hold you up.
I'm gonna keep you held. But at what cost? And
that's what we were really talking about, Kathy and I
were really talking about, is understanding that functioning at that
level and in that way has a cost, not just
(15:37):
your health, not just your bandwidth, not to just your brain,
It has a cost to your relationships because when you
really think about it, high functioning or regular as codependency
is a covert or overt bid to control someone else's outcome.
(15:57):
You said this too, which stopped me in my tracks.
It follow what you're saying because you actually thought this
and said it. But you said this, and this is me.
This is so me, And I'm so cool, calm and
collected and casual about it too, Like I'm actually pretty
secret about how controlling I am. Like if you meet me,
I'm like all love and light and chill and I'm
like loving to like uplift and you know, I look
(16:20):
through easy breezy. But here is the truth of the
centure of me, which is what makes you think you
know what lessons every person needs to learn. You are
actually blocking the person from experiencing what that person needs
to experience. I what So, what I'm really doing is
inserting myself in the middle of others lives because I
(16:43):
think and this is the ego like check like whoa,
because it's true. I think that I know better for
everyone what they need to learn. And I was like, WHOA,
I do think that. That's why we're you know, now
recovering high functioning codependence. Where the awareness here's the key
(17:07):
that you talked about before having this realization, this is
now this You cannot There is no unringing that realization
bell that you had in that moment. None. You will
never go back to having those experiences being in the
basement of your mind, as I like to call it,
which is your unconscious mind. We all have these processes
(17:30):
that are going on unconsciously. But what we did together
in that meeting is I put on a little miner's
lamp on my head, I grabbed your hand, and we
walked down the stairs to the basement of your mind,
and we opened up a bunch of dusty ask boxes
and brought that ship to the main part of the house,
which is where we can turn the lights on and
(17:50):
open the windows and go, Okay, wow, this is what
I'm actually doing. Let me have compassion for myself. Let
me not shame myself and make myself feel bad about
I mean, listen, when I realized this in my late twenties,
I was embarrassed. I was humiliated. I was ashamed. I
(18:12):
was like, oh my god. I totally thought I was
like mother Theresa, and now I realized I'm like just
a control freak, and it was really all about me
being uncomfortable because that person's life is a freaking dumpster fire,
and that dumpster fire is really fucking with my internal peace.
That's what was going on. Oh my God, how you're
giving and you're giving and you're giving, and you're pouring
(18:34):
yourself out there and you're doing all these things and
you're really trying to be helpful and you're trying to
give great advice and you're trying to show up and
you're trying to be like, you'll get it. This is
the one I'm gonna hold your hand. But it's like, no, no,
you are trying to control that person's life and what
they're in and what they're learning and their their moment,
whatever season they're in, that's their lesson, and you pray
(18:57):
it comes on the other side. But it's like, how
could we think we know what's best? Well, but we do,
and and so many of us do. I'm writing a
fan book about it, like it is such a pandemic
speaking of that I saw in I mean, I've been
a psychotherapist for twenty five years and I've seen tens
(19:18):
of thousands of women in particular suffering from this, and
it didn't make sense the whole Just talking about codependency
didn't make sense because everyone thought I was talking about
you must be involved with an addict. It's all about
enabling behavior. It is so much more complicated than that,
and it is so much more pervasive than that. It's
(19:41):
not just about romantic relationships or enabling your parents who's
an alcoholic to keep drinking. No, no, and yeah, those
things fall under codependency too, But what we're talking about
is a completely different animal that is really born out
of the time in history that we live as women,
(20:03):
especially in the United States or in the Northeast, or
in any sort of developed country where it started in
the seventies, only in the seventies, late sixties, early seventies,
where women allowed to be more than a nurse, a teacher,
or secretary allowed to be. So of course the mindset
is programmed and been passed down, and this is why
we're the first ones that are starting to de program right,
(20:26):
and and to feel like we're gonna now, oh my god,
we're going to college, we're getting master's degrees, where we
are creating empires, careers on TV, changing lives, doing all
of this stuff. And nobody was like, oh, now I'm
going to pick up the slack at home, right, So
this whole superwoman thing that came about, right was like,
(20:50):
I don't want them to take away my ability to
be a doctor, a lawyer of frigging you know, Supreme
Court justice. Like I don't want that. So I don't
want there to be any problems. I want to the
the house is running great, the kids are on track
to go to ivy leagues or whatever whatever it is
that matters, because like it was so it was held
(21:12):
so it was like a carrot dangling and like if
you do anything wrong, you're gonna lose it. You have
to be perfect. Yes, So it's not like it came
out of nowhere. To a degree that my generation and
the generations younger than me and the generations one older
than me, I have this feeling that we must do
it all. So high functioning codependency has been bred through
(21:36):
the cultural changes that have happened, which is why it's
like now it's exploding in this way of doing more
emotional labor. How exhausted women are and how exhausted we feel,
and how it's so hard to rest, it's so hard
to ask for help, it's so hard to you know,
it's like we just feel like it's got to be me.
(21:58):
I gotta be doing it all. Thinking about how even
in my twenties and I'm in my fifties. Now it's like,
how you know, I'd be going to Europe or wherever
and the cab driver pulls up and I can't even
let the guy put my freaking luggage in the trunk.
He's like, I'm getting out. I'm like, I got it,
opening the thing, lifting the thing up and throwing and
(22:19):
I'm like there was so much habituated behavior and hyper
independence that comes along with this experience where maybe we
don't want to owe anybody ship that's possible, Maybe we
don't want to burden others because how much of the
time when you're a high function and codependants, so much
(22:40):
of the time we're sort of expert listeners and auto fixers. Right,
You're gonna tell me your problem, and I'm going to
have your solution. Most of the time f I with
my clients and my own experience, people are like, well,
how are you You're that great? Fine? Fine? Like I'm fine,
I don't know, I don't whatever advice you're going to
(23:01):
give a problem I gonna take anyway. But it's it's
sort of not wanting the focus in that way to
be on us because we're kind of take charge type
of people and we want to be in the position
that we're comfortable being in. But the cost to your relationships.
And I think that this is something that is not
talked about often, is that you're in the centering of
(23:25):
ourselves inadvertently, right Like I didn't. I wasn't some purposefully
doing that, and I know you weren't either, right, I mean,
and nobody listening to this if you identify as a
high functioning codependent, there's no do not, there's no shape. Right.
We're just taking this ship from the basement of your
mind and bringing into the main part of the house
so you can make shifts in your behavior. And the
(23:49):
first thing is understanding something that I had to learn
too that is worth holding a boundary for is spreading
myself of too thin, giving myself to everyone who asked
me for something because of what we're talking about. Because
I want to uphold this image of love and helpfulness
and kindness, because that is my heart. But it's like
(24:11):
I by doing that though, because I want to make
sure you keep that good image of me in your mind,
I am saying that the boundary or the space that
I was going to give myself to have like a
walk and outside and clear my head and to listen
to a fueling podcast, or you know, just actually have
some time to fill my wellness cup, which now I
(24:33):
am realizing is like the most important thing for all
of it. It's like you're saying all my needs are
not important at or or you're you're saying that like
I can't hold a space for what I actually mean,
I'm gonna just sacrifice that to make sure I can
keep everyone else loving me and this whole thing going.
And now I'm like, oh my god, if I if
I feel myself off at all, I have to find
(24:55):
the next spot in my day to give myself time
to recalibrate it, or else it just compas on each other.
You know, yeah, it's it absolutely does. And also the
real problem with all of this, with the over functioning
and the over giving and the over delivering, is that
we end up presentful. So the same people that we
say we care about, in the same people that we
(25:16):
want to hold us in all of this high esteem,
we start thinking they're idiots. We start being like Jesus,
why why does this person still need this from me?
Or why are they asking me for this again? So
in the beginning, it's almost like a high where we
can help and we can be the savior, we can
be the hero, and then that gets really tired and
you don't want to keep doing it. I created a
(25:40):
gift for your audience though, around codependency. So I'm going
to give you the EURA and you can put it
in the show notes called um they can they can
get it at Boundary Boss, Stop Me Forward Slash Get
Real also, and it's it's about the It's there's a
video and there's a downloadable guide because I want listeners
(26:02):
to be able to dive a little bit more deeply
into their personal experience. Because as much as I teach this,
your unique life experience is what made you you as
mine did me, and as every listener and watcher everyone
has a unique sort of downloaded boundary and codependency blueprint.
So this will help bring some of this to the
(26:23):
service for them. That's amazing, Terry. Honestly, you you change
my life and everyone listening to this. If you have
been unaware of boundaries, or if you thought you had boundaries,
if you had no idea, you are high functioning codependent,
like I had no idea that I was. I encourage
you to get her book I got your book. I
(26:44):
had your book not only in the book form, but
I also bought it on an audio book because I
just needed to have the option to listen to what
I was driving as well. When I started learning all this,
I'm like, I need this blooded in my brain seven,
Like I have to rewire my entire life, you know.
But it's been kind of excited because now that I
am so aware of boundaries, and now I'm so aware
(27:04):
of my alignment. Like I'm just so aware of like
when I feel like I'm in correct alignment with myself
and like supporting what my soul wants to do. And
so I feel now like when I do have moments
where I cross my own boundaries or I'm going back
to all behavior, I can feel it. And it's kind
of like this fun game to like pull it back
(27:25):
in and then to watch yourself do it the new way,
and then to see how a new situation unfolded. That
was so much chiller, better, more I could actually let people.
I could look at people and see them for who
they are and what they're saying instead of what I'm
projecting on them and how I'm trying to manipulate the
conversation and it's just like it's like your arms are
(27:47):
like this when you're trying to hold when you don't
have bounds. And then so you can just sit back
and relax and be like what, wow, what was I
doing for so long? And you realize people are actually
kind of like better than what you're giving them credit for,
you know, yeah, and they are whatever they're going to be.
What you get to do is replace control with really
(28:10):
like radical curiosity, yes, yes, like who are you actually? Like?
Okay here? And another thing I do with myself because
I do come in trying to make sure the room
is set in the right tone, and so I'll come
in with all my stuff and I'm trying to just
like walk in now and don't even talk, just like
walk in, be in the room. And I mean I
(28:32):
don't just all the time, but when I remember, I
always love it because it's like let everyone else lead,
let me see who everyone else is, what they actually
want to talk about. Instead of me exerting all this
energy to put this conversation out to get it all
going on, I feel like it needs to be just
like actually, why don't I take the sit in the
passenger seat and just get back. I don't have to
do anything here besides be myself. Yeah, and what what
(28:56):
a beautiful open energy to come into a room with
rather than this controlling energy, even if our hearts are
in the right place. So again, it's not there's no
meanness in being a high functioning codependent or having disordered boundaries.
It's simply dysfunctional. And it is not optimal for the
quality of your internal experience, your external experience, and your relationships.
(29:20):
That's it. It is not optimal. So if you want
deeply intimate relationships, and if you want deep success, that
feels like success because here's the thing. You could be
at the top of your game, doing all the things
for all the people, making all the money in the world.
But if you are doing it from a high functioning
codependent place, it's not going to feel good for long. Amen.
(29:41):
Amen to that. Yes, well, thank you for your wisdom,
thank you for the profound life changing effect you have
had on me. I just want you to know that
like your work and your commitment to this work, and
the way that you are sharing your work with your
book boundary boss, with the way you give podcasts and speak,
(30:04):
and the way you share and run courses. It is
so amazing and I am so grateful for women and
teachers and guides like you who have done this such
hard work on topics that we need to know, and
you have consolidated it for us and you can teach
it to us in ways that we can understand. And
it is just to have teachers and guides and mentors
(30:26):
like you in the world. It's such a blessing. I'm
so privileged to be in your orbit and in your
realm and to have learned from you. So everyone, y'all
need to pick up Boundary Boss. Go to that link.
Let's say the link one more time so everyone can
remember where to go. Boundary Boss dot me forward slash
get real awesome. I always wrap up with leave your
(30:46):
light and it's just super open ended. What do you
want people to know that they can do this? That
whatever level you're living at right now, if you are
not literally thrilled, there's more that you can do internal
work that will create a more satisfying, thrilling, rich life
(31:08):
experience for you. That is so key. Internal work. You
don't have to go change your life, change your house,
change your spouse, like abandon your kids and quit your job.
You can actually just learn this and shift your brain
in what, like you said, whatever circumstance you're in, and
(31:28):
by shifting your brain, your circumstances are going to shift
as well. Correct. Correct, you are amazing. Thank you so much,
Terry Cole. Like this was like a thrill when I
got back from Cathy's retreat and heard this conversation, and
then I realized that, like I was getting to have
a podcast with you. I was like, the universe loves me,
(31:49):
like I am on track, like I am aligned, Like
this is like too good to be true. I cannot
believe this is happening. I am so grateful. Thank you
so much. This was Honestly, I haven't so many podcasts
with so many amazing people, but this was one that
was I was so excited about just because you, Terry,
have changed my life, and I know you are community
(32:10):
so many people's lives, So thank you for coming on.
It was so awesome and if you're all in an
honor to get to talk with you, thank you so
much for having me. I appreciate you
Host
Caroline Hobby
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