CHEVAL: Getting Real About Legal Battles, Losing Her Name & Rebirth from the Ashes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
At Carne.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
She's a queen and talking and she's getting really not
afraid to fels episode soul, just let it blow, No
one can do we quiet cary line is sound for Caroline.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm so excited to be here on this episode of
Get Rial with the one the only Cheval, which means
French horse. That's right, horse and French horse in French.
Because we're getting up, we're getting we're getting going absolutely right.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
We're gonna run against the wind.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
We're running against the wind. This wild stallion can't be tamed.
She's got sequins blowing.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Right in your hair.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Unbridled, unbridled stallion horse in French.

Speaker 5 (00:57):
That is you, Chaval. I love this so much. Okay,
so your mama did not name you Chaval.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
She did not.

Speaker 5 (01:03):
That is a name you have adopted lately.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
That is my yeah form of identity. I would say
they're like a stage name.

Speaker 5 (01:09):
Sure, I like that. Do people like say hi Chaval?

Speaker 4 (01:13):
They do?

Speaker 5 (01:13):
Like I didn't even know how to say hi to you.

Speaker 6 (01:16):
It's actually an issue that a lot of people have
these days because they're like, ooh, do I say what?

Speaker 4 (01:20):
How you know? There's a fun little dance there and
then I'm just like, let's see what they.

Speaker 5 (01:24):
Say, you know, because I'm like, so we're going to
get into this.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
There's some plot lines here, guys. We have three plots.
We have Plot A, we have Plot B, and we
have Plot C. Yes, this is very detailed and it
is going to keep you on your toes.

Speaker 5 (01:36):
So Plot A sore.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
There's a lawsuit involved that we I don't know how
to talk about. We're going to talk about and not
talk about at the same time. Okay, right, Yeah, it's
gonna be like totally incognito.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
We can tip tap you around.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
We'll tip tap around, but we'll just kind of get
the gist of what has happened in your life, which
involves a lawsuit to why your name is now chaval absolutely,
which is an awesome name, thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:55):
I mean, I love it, super cool.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
I thought it was strong.

Speaker 6 (01:58):
It almost had like a masculine energy, and because I'm
such a girly girl, I was like, this is a
fun juxtaposition.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
I love that.

Speaker 5 (02:04):
Yeah, wild of re unbridled horse. Okay, so let's talk
about where this all began. How did you get going? Who,
how did this start? Who are you like? Who was
the child you like? What was the.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Family dynamic, what was the vibe of your upbringing. Let's
start at the beginning, like, where did where did this
masterpiece of yourself come from?

Speaker 4 (02:28):
You're sweet?

Speaker 6 (02:30):
Well, it all started when my grandmother taught me to
sew and bake and just threw me into all kinds
of crafts and creating. Really, so your grandmother was super creative,
super and really encouraged it. My parents also were just
very artistic and like, go for it, girl kind of
thing at a sewing machine.

Speaker 5 (02:49):
How old were you when you start sewing?

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (02:50):
Goodness, I think I was like seven?

Speaker 5 (02:53):
Gosh, okay.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
So you really can help set your children on their
trajectory if you teach them skills that they like. If
you introduced the to things and they're young, do we
introduce to tons of things?

Speaker 4 (03:02):
I think it's intro and then just see where they
go with it.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Because you're introduced at cooking, you're interested to sewing. What
else are you introduced to? Drawing, drawing, illustrating, all kinds
of stuff?

Speaker 4 (03:11):
Crochet?

Speaker 5 (03:12):
Do you use all this still or did you still?
It all works together?

Speaker 4 (03:16):
It does?

Speaker 6 (03:16):
And interestingly enough, most of the designers that I know
or i've met through my journey. Not all of them illustrate,
so not all of them sketch quite the way I do.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
Like my ketch.

Speaker 6 (03:25):
I sketch, and they're very like, I don't know, imaginative,
you would say, you know, like almost like cartoons. So
they're really exaggerated and fun and playful, and I love
incorporating that bit of almost like personification into the designs.

Speaker 5 (03:39):
So do you get like, how do you get your ideas?

Speaker 3 (03:42):
Like and how did you cause you started started with
dresses or did you start with all things and then
you narrowed down to dresses?

Speaker 6 (03:49):
I would say I did start almost with all things
in the initial exposure. So growing up as a kid,
I was like always picking up little fun creative projects
and things and doing like handbags and selling them to
my mom's friends, like just like random stuff like that.
But I always gravitated toward the romantic craftsmanship that goes
into wedding dresses, and so that was real early on.

(04:10):
Maybe it was the Disney Princess movies, and.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Then I hopeless romantic for sure. Do you want to
get married when you're heck yeah? And my parents have
like a beautiful marriage and so.

Speaker 5 (04:17):
Like they do see a great childhood.

Speaker 4 (04:19):
Yeah, I had a great childhood.

Speaker 5 (04:21):
That's awesome. So many people do not.

Speaker 6 (04:22):
It's a huge blessing and a huge privilege to have that.
It is a huge privilege. I actually realized that too.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
My parents have done a great job and like they're
still married in e love and I'm like, man, it
is amazing to make it all the way to the end.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
It really is.

Speaker 6 (04:36):
And it was kind of for my sister and I
just just a sister. Yeah, I want an older sister,
and we both just kind of saw my parents as
this great epic team, you know, And so she and
I I think when being exposed to that, it's like, oh,
some day I'm going to get married, you know, and
maybe I can even make my own wedding dress.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
You know. It's like it just set in early.

Speaker 6 (04:53):
But then that set me on a trajectory of like
I'm going to be a wedding dress designer someday, you knew.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
I mean that was my dream.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
I claimed it from early, claimed it, claimed it like
this is I declare that's it.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
Yeah, Hey, this is my choice and this is what
I'm doing.

Speaker 6 (05:06):
And then so everything went into that really for me,
I just you know, no matter what's sewing class or
whatever I was doing the project, I was always had
some element of wedding or you know, marriage or a
romantic attachment and.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
Then manifesting hard before Like you started this dream young
and you stayed on the path.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
I stayed on track. And then I went through college.

Speaker 6 (05:25):
I did the design school at Cornell, and wow, everything
was just way all the way.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Like I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it right.
I got this dream when I was seven, and we
are making it happen. We're going to Cornell. Yes, I
am going tip at the top.

Speaker 6 (05:39):
Let's make it good. And then actually I had a
great college experience. They really teach you pattern making, draping,
a little bit of entrepreneurial stuff and it was really
well rounded. But I graduated with the bachelors of Science, and.

Speaker 5 (05:53):
So bachelors of science, so what does that mean.

Speaker 6 (05:55):
I learned like the textures and the like scientific make
up of fabrics and like really cool stuff and almost
like the math side of it all, which really I
think helped me in terms of like conceptualizing an idea
from sketch through fruition of address, and like the construction
and quality of fabric and all this stuff, like you

(06:15):
really that goes into it from a whole some perspective
of it. Are you super particular about fabrics, you know,
I'm actually more particular about the expression of fabric, Like
obviously that what does that mean? Break that down from
what does it do? You know, like, Okay, how can
fabric what does it best do? So it doesn't matter
what the content is, Like yes, of course you want

(06:36):
like something super quality and silk or whatever. But I
think a lot of these new synthetic fabrics that are
coming out like do amazing things, you know, like they'll
repel water or they can almost stick together and create
almost like a seamless look. And then the embellishment of it.
You need the right based fabric, you know. There's just
so much that goes into.

Speaker 5 (06:55):
Like building a wedding dress.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Actually, if you're building it with the wrong fabrics, like
it could you could probably do the sketch and get
the idea. Getting the sketch and getting an idea is
totally different than picking the fabrics and making the dress too.

Speaker 5 (07:05):
Right. Absolutely, that's a huge distinction.

Speaker 6 (07:07):
Yeah, it is, And that's something you know, with any
type of skill set or practice you get better at right,
And so like I just went all in on that
and I'm fully embraced it, learned as much as I
could and that and really in colleges where I decided, Okay,
I can actually do this, and I can do it
well and I can make a living doing it someday,
Because I think when you're growing up and you have

(07:29):
these big dreams, you think, well, how do I do that?
Like if I if you wanted to be an actress
or you wanted to be an influencier, Like, how do
you get to that?

Speaker 5 (07:37):
Right?

Speaker 6 (07:37):
It's always one of the same, is so far away.
But I think just really practicing, you're going to get better.
And if you genuinely enjoy it, it comes from a place
of enthusiasm and you hold on to that, especially when
dumpster fires happen. You know, like if you can keep
your enthusiasm through it, it's a very good thing.

Speaker 5 (07:55):
That is so true, because dumpster fires can really take
you down.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
Yeah, yeah, Just what is your whole.

Speaker 5 (08:01):
Dream in name?

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yea?

Speaker 5 (08:02):
You know everything?

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Okay, So was your sister? Is she also a creative
dreamer like you? Or does she go different paths?

Speaker 6 (08:10):
She's an epic badass. She's a producer and like crushing
it and so inspiring.

Speaker 4 (08:14):
Yes, Oh my.

Speaker 5 (08:15):
Gosh, are y'all besties?

Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yeah, we are.

Speaker 6 (08:17):
We've come through it and back too, because we've both
been through divorces and crazy Both of y'all have been divorced,
crazy setbacks.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
Yes, and growing up in the family, we did, you know,
come up.

Speaker 5 (08:25):
From a perfect family and both got divorced. How does
that happen?

Speaker 6 (08:29):
It's just I think you just never know what to expect.
And I also feel because if you're an optimist and
you constantly want to put your heart on your sleeve
and do the best you possibly can, a lot of
times there's vulnerabilities exposed or there's things that you either
you know, I call it painting red flags, pink.

Speaker 5 (08:45):
Being red flags.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
You would make it so cute and girlybout that color
of pink gets red but exactly a little diamond dust.

Speaker 5 (08:54):
It's fine, it's fine. It's not really red.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Yes, it's pink. A little bit of that going on, but.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Did you Okay, So, looking back now, because you've now
gone through a divorce with your relationship romantically, but also
with your business, you know, so you've obviously dealt with
some red flags that have materialized into like kind of erupting.
What are way to say, you know, you always have

(09:22):
the red flags just go away, and now it's erupting
and you're like, oh no, it's coming.

Speaker 5 (09:27):
So red flags.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
Can you kind of speak to all of us out
there who are living with blinders on and young because
it started when you're young.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
Do red flags ever go away?

Speaker 4 (09:35):
I don't think so. I don't know.

Speaker 6 (09:37):
I guess it's all relative and there are exceptions to
the rule. But I do think I relate to a
lot of women that have that intuition or that gut
feeling that you ignore or you push down, or you
come up with conspiracy theories against yourself of like what
it's not you know, because you want something to happen
or you want it to materialize in a certain way.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
It was like close, It's like so close. There's so
many things that are so good about it. You're like,
it's like seventy percent there, let's just not worry about
the last thirty percent, right exactly?

Speaker 6 (10:08):
Is the majority overruling that's right, Yeah, we're gonna round up.

Speaker 4 (10:12):
Oh goodness.

Speaker 6 (10:12):
And then it starts to grow the opposite way so right, Yeah,
but I don't know, I do feel like tenacity and
resilience and just like the idea of success is really
about just like recognizing the ebbs and flows of life,
but knowing that the failures are going to happen, the
mistakes are going to happen, and if you can maintain

(10:34):
your light, you know, and maintain your enthusiasm for what
you do, that is a science success for me.

Speaker 5 (10:40):
Yeah, this is your message.

Speaker 4 (10:41):
Oh, that is totally the message.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
No matter how successful you are in your personal relationships
or your business relationship, your actual message is maintain your
light through the dumpster fires exactly.

Speaker 6 (10:52):
Just yeah, and it be lighter than that dumpster fire somehow, like, yeah,
shine the dumpsterfire.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
I saw this too, and you have so you have
so much with Taylor Swift, you know, because she's in
legal battles as well. But also she said too, like
she's had so much stuff on her and she said,
you just have to get through all this.

Speaker 5 (11:09):
And then have more fun than everybody else.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
And I'm like, that is so true, because when you're
going through the worst stuff, it really takes your fun away,
it takes your light away. It could you can really
like crawl in a hole and die.

Speaker 6 (11:21):
Yes, you cannot unpack and live there, you know, because
you'll take a visit every once in a while.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
I have to like take a vacation there for a while.
Did you have a permanent say for a minute, and
not a permanent Do you have like a you know,
like a residency for a second?

Speaker 4 (11:32):
I did? I absolutely did. I feel like that's the
healthy thing to do.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Just you got to get in there. I mean you
have to like meet it and say, who the hell
are you?

Speaker 5 (11:42):
What are we doing? Like what do you want from me?

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (11:44):
And I think there's a bit of accountability too in
that space because when something like that.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Happened, accountability look at you claim and some stuff, because
there's always your side their side in the truth.

Speaker 6 (11:53):
Right there is like a Okay, well there must have
been something that I did for this to happen, you know,
and that and I think in accepting it and owning
part of.

Speaker 5 (12:02):
It, that's maturity right there.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
It's maturity.

Speaker 6 (12:04):
But it's also like I didn't know what I didn't know, right,
and then like I am paying the debt for my
own naivety or ignorance.

Speaker 5 (12:12):
And don't we all do that?

Speaker 6 (12:12):
Though?

Speaker 4 (12:13):
We do.

Speaker 5 (12:13):
You just did it on a bigger scale.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
On a legal way out there, because that's not okay.
So now that way not to move into plot line
B here, which is where you really like hit your stride,
Like you become the wedding dress designer. You are the
face of say yes to the dress, Like, how did
that even happen? Let me there are a few things
out there, and then let's unpack it. You become like
the face of say yes to the dress, like you

(12:37):
are helping like over forty thousand brides find their wedding
dress or something like that, like thousands, like thousands, thousands.

Speaker 4 (12:43):
It was wonderful.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
You are the wedding dress designer. I mean, everybody knows you.
Everybody's talking about you. You're pinned on everything. It's like,
that's you. It's not the name Chaval, by the way,
it's a different name.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
Correct, which distinction is needed?

Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yes, because Chaval is not wedding dress justice. It is
wonderful other things. So that that's plot lane CE, so
we'll move to that later.

Speaker 5 (13:04):
There's just so many things. I don't want to get
it confused.

Speaker 4 (13:06):
I know you're doing a great job, okay.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
And so you become this like epic designer, and you
probably needed some money to get your business going right
or something. Because you found a partnership in this partner,
you found a company to back you financially this one.

Speaker 5 (13:24):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because we're black on, like we're back
in the beginning this plot.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah when you will plot b plat was childhood. Now
plot be into like your career. So you are going
to launch and become the successful wedding dress designer. But
do you need a backer, like you need someone to
help you launch this?

Speaker 4 (13:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (13:41):
So basically it was a house of brands existing with
other designers and it was almost like a plug and
play in that like they had existing distribution and manufacturing
and then you know, I was coming to the table
and was offered an employment role as a head designer,
but it would be using my name the name.

Speaker 5 (14:00):
For the collection.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Okay wait, okay, okay, So this is the part that
we got to break down. You were this is like
it's almost like a record label, so like there's a
I can speak in music terms, there's like a record
label and you're going to be a signed artist, but
the record label owns is like the machine behind it all.
But you're an artist signed and you're the artist is
using your name, so you're going to be the brand,

(14:23):
and you're going to have the creativity, which would be
like your songs that you create and you put out
and you go tour and you're the face of it
and all that. But yes, you are technically kind of
owned by the record label or the bigger brand.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (14:35):
And every contract is nuanced, right, so it's it's not
always generalized. But in my case, it was an employment
contract as a head designer.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
Okay, an employment contract as a head designer with this
big brand. But the name is going to be your.

Speaker 6 (14:48):
Name, correct, Yeah, So I had to give rights for
my name to be trademarked because it was the name
of the collection.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
If I don't think anything of that when you're twenty five,
all right, actually sounds gonna be cool.

Speaker 6 (14:58):
It was the yeah, chance to shoot my shot. And
I think being that age and I had a little
industry experience under my belt about four or five years,
and I've already I've already spearheaded my own collections and
been designing very heavily. I had a robust resume coming in.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
And you had some some you're cooking with great cooking.

Speaker 5 (15:19):
Yeah you're cooking you had with Greece.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
I love it.

Speaker 5 (15:21):
I saw that from Landy Wilson. I can sew cooking.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
Yeah, I love it. Yeah yeah.

Speaker 5 (15:26):
So and then so they were you were desirable.

Speaker 6 (15:28):
They wanted you absolutely, and I actually sought them out
originally and I presented, you know, a bit of a
business model.

Speaker 4 (15:37):
And it happened very fast.

Speaker 6 (15:38):
So from the time of like, you know, we're going
to offer you this to like, here's the contract. And
I think at the time, I just didn't want to
lose my opportunity, and knowing how many people want to
be designers and get their shot, and I felt like
the responsibility was on me holy to show them what
I could do and what like.

Speaker 5 (15:57):
And to agree maybe to what they want, so you could.

Speaker 6 (16:00):
And not be combative, not push back, not ever like
put anything out there that would ever seem like, you know,
I'm not a team player, and I think a lot
of young designers relate to that, and thinking, you know,
if I show any sign of being difficult or they're
gonna walk away, they're not gonna want to work with me,
and I'll write my opportunity exactly. And I also felt

(16:22):
like you can trust the people kind of in the room.
I had that mindset of like I'll be taken care of.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
They would never do this.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Oh no, you are that you know, I know you
sure do, don't you. Yes, in the beginning, I know
that's feeling too like starting off as like a young
dreamer and then here comes the first big opportunity that
could be life changing and was life changing.

Speaker 5 (16:42):
Oh absolutely, you know, comes shows up and you're like,
oh my god, Oh my god, am I god?

Speaker 3 (16:46):
Okay, yes, of course everything, yes, yes, yes, But here's
the thing, so here, Okay, they obviously promised you things.
Do you feel like their promises, like their obligations were uphell?
Like you does this come down to you signing a
contract that just in retrospect, you wouldn't have ever signed

(17:07):
again now as the woman that you are, Like.

Speaker 5 (17:10):
Is it basically that?

Speaker 3 (17:11):
Because is it just deal points that you just kind
of didn't even know you were signing at that point?

Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (17:16):
So the latter part of what you just said is
spot on. It's I would have now that I know
what I know, I would have obviously never done it.
But I think that interpretation is the bigger word here
in that you can have a contract, it's the way
it's interpreted. It's the way that somebody is extending the
entitlements or how they're.

Speaker 4 (17:38):
Going to be enforcing it.

Speaker 5 (17:41):
That's it.

Speaker 6 (17:42):
And then for me that was the lesson. It's like, Okay,
you can have a contract, but it only matters how
much the person behind it or the parties behind it
are willing to go for it, and like where, well,
they're where they're willing to take it. And in my case,
it went to places I never possibly imagine, not in
my wildest dreams.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
Okay, so that's what happened, is kind of went beyond
what they kind of were pursuing parts of you that
you felt like weren't really attached to the brand.

Speaker 6 (18:06):
Absolutely, and it from my perspective and experience, you know,
for so long, I was operating as a team player,
like everything I'm doing is for the benefit of the whole, right,
And it didn't matter so much of the nuance and
the circumstances that didn't exist at the time of signing
didn't matter to me because I felt like it would
benefit everyone. I think I actually thought I was getting this,

(18:29):
Oh my gosh, it's a dream and I'm going to
go do all these things, and I was the one
that was like, let me make this blossom and turn
it into something even bigger, when in reality, what I
got was a job. I signed a contract. I got
a job like I wasn't as a reality the head
as a head designer. And that's really what it's come
down to, is that, Oh my gosh, that's really actually

(18:51):
what it was.

Speaker 4 (18:52):
But here I was.

Speaker 6 (18:53):
Thinking, like rose colored glasses, it's I'm going to be
I'm going to be a partner someday, or I'm going
to be this, or I'm going to someday I'll be
able to get what I think I'm deserved. Rather than
asking for it upfront, it's that I need to prove it.
And that was the mindset that really bit me in
the butt.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
It's hard to know what you're worth when you haven't
really fully proved your full capability yet you know, yes,
I get that dilemma. It's like, you know what you're
capable of, and you know what you believe that you
will accomplish, but like you can't.

Speaker 5 (19:30):
You don't have anything truly to show for it.

Speaker 6 (19:33):
Absolutely not, And it's your the stubborn mindset of that
and then maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome and
just whatever it may be. But like, going back to
that moment, I just I don't feel like the answer
really would have been, Oh, I needed to get a
lawyer and negotiate and get a better contract, because now
that I'm I've been going through this battle and seeing
the psychology of it, there's no way I would have

(19:55):
been able to do it without all this, like now
what you would call leverage and proof of of concept
and all this. Like I really was kind of nobody
because I didn't have enough of that you know, experience
behind it. So I think my answer would have been
to think of other companies, think of other capital investors,
think of other ways to achieve my dream, which would
have required so much more wisdom and knowledge that I

(20:17):
so much like.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
It's hard to have that kind of blind faith when
you're so excited to have this opportunity, because you're like,
what if I don't get another one?

Speaker 4 (20:24):
Exactly?

Speaker 5 (20:24):
You know, it's so many things at play here. There's
like it's the youth.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
It's you know, being young and being a dreamer and
having a dream come true looking like it could come true.

Speaker 5 (20:35):
Then there's like the whole legality.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
That's a whole other world because like where do we
measure Okay, yes, you sign this, this is legal, but
yet this is we're dealing with someone who really is naive,
doesn't know what she's doing yet, you know, like, so
what is It's like the moral dilemma, you know, because
this legal trump everything.

Speaker 5 (20:53):
Ultimately, I guess I don't know if it's.

Speaker 6 (20:56):
Kind of I don't even know how I would answer that,
because now that I've experienced what I have, I just
feel like anything goes you know. It's just like I
used to think of, you know, marriage a certain way.
I used to think of like the law. It's black
and white. It's either here's the facts, here's what's going on.
This is what the law says.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
But then it's like, oh no, no, no, over here it
says this, and if you look at it this way,
it's like there's so much creativity that goes into it,
which which I can appreciate, but it's also like, oh
I wish I wish this was kind of just very
clear of what has happened, because.

Speaker 5 (21:30):
It is, you know, it can still be so gray.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, it just seems yeah, very very gray, and you
felt you've dealt with that now through divorce of a partner,
of husband and a business.

Speaker 5 (21:41):
Wow, you really have like entered the gray zone.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
I'm in it. Yeah, just looking for the rainbow.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
Okay, So I want to talk about obviously we're going
to talk about when things started to go wrong, but
like things are going really right for a long time, right.

Speaker 6 (21:57):
Yes, I mean I feel I loved my job, you know,
and I loved what I was doing, and I wouldn't
change that for anything, like the relationships and the women
I've met and been inspired by over the years, and
just there's so much beauty to come from it.

Speaker 4 (22:10):
Being on the show say yes to the dress?

Speaker 5 (22:12):
Was it that happened? How did you get on to say?
Where did that even come from?

Speaker 6 (22:15):
I mean I never repected to be on a TV show,
to be honest, and I've never had media training, Like
you're a natural not you're so sweet. But I think
it's because of my gymnastics days, like you gist. Oh,
I was a little baby gymnast for like so long. Yeah,
and then he did through college.

Speaker 5 (22:29):
So like can you do like run up?

Speaker 3 (22:31):
I can't try college flips. I was going to say
that you have very strong legs. I've been looking on Instagram.
I'm like, she is strong, like your whole legs. It's
like you were like whoa, you are like so amazing,
like your body is amazing, but you're like ripped.

Speaker 4 (22:45):
Yeah, I have what I call her thighs in a
very good way.

Speaker 5 (22:47):
So you're a gymnast.

Speaker 6 (22:49):
Yeah, But the performance side of it, and like the
competition side, the competition side, gymnastics is never left me
totally subjective.

Speaker 5 (22:58):
It's not. It's not like it's so mu's judgment.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's so much living in other people's judgment forever, judgment zone,
the gray zone, because gymnast is not like you get
a score on.

Speaker 5 (23:07):
A basketball goal or football goal.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
It's like someone sits around, looks at you and then
huddles up and decides if you have one or not
or why And it's so subjective it is.

Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 5 (23:18):
That's kind of maddening a little bit.

Speaker 6 (23:21):
Maybe there's something about it that I just like, I
think of the line from the Office when Angela's like
I like to be judged, Like, I don't know, maybe
maybe there's some of that in me. I don't even know,
but but yeah, so I got on say yes to
the dress.

Speaker 4 (23:35):
It just kind of happened.

Speaker 6 (23:36):
I was doing a trunk show at Kleinfeld and was
asked to just participate and come on the show, and
it just worked out really well. And then my first
wedding was on the show, and it just kind of
was very natural, and I really loved my experience there
because it was an extension of what I was already doing.

Speaker 5 (23:50):
Oh it's a perfect fit.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
Yeah, Like you don't have to like memorize lines and like.

Speaker 5 (23:54):
You just be yourself.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
You just get to be you. And so I was like,
this is great.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
You know.

Speaker 5 (23:57):
So did they only shop from your dresses?

Speaker 7 (24:00):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (24:00):
No, No, the show is like it welcomes all kinds
of designers and you know, like.

Speaker 5 (24:05):
You're like the host of it.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
No.

Speaker 6 (24:06):
So I was actually just a designer on the show.
So I would come in like during a trunk show
and a bride would be there on the show, and
then I would help her find the right dress and
sometimes it wasn't you know, it wasn't one of mine
or something like that. But like for me, it's like
the experience of it all and just being there present
with a bride and I just it's wonderful.

Speaker 5 (24:25):
So how cool.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
So sometimes your dresses would be in the mix of
them picking an other time others. So like you just
like you just are like I just love wedding dresses,
oh for sure. And you just appreciate great qualities. So
you can see that in others, you can see that
in your own.

Speaker 5 (24:38):
That's really cool.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
So you had the designer aspect, but then also you
were like helped curate other people's just based on dresses
that you loved and thought would be great for them.

Speaker 5 (24:48):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (24:48):
Absolutely, it was all embracing and everything, and I yeah,
I loved being on the show, and I think it
really helped me understand that there is a lot of
different ways to reach peace people and get visibility. And
then you've got Instagram alongside it, right, which was I
was an early adapted Instagram and.

Speaker 5 (25:07):
The year was all this popping for you.

Speaker 6 (25:09):
Well Instagram. I joined in like twoenty twelve, I think
like April and a girlfriend was like you would love Instagram.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
I'm like, what's this Graham thing?

Speaker 7 (25:19):
You know?

Speaker 6 (25:19):
And like I was taking pictures of my lattes and
late nights out in New York City at twenty, you know,
six years old and I actually since had deleted a
lot of things that you would never want up there,
but now I actually wish I had left all of
that up, but just to show that it's yeah, because
Instagram came in to play with the contract and everything
in a very interesting way.

Speaker 5 (25:39):
Did it kind of hinge on social media?

Speaker 4 (25:42):
It so basically social media.

Speaker 6 (25:45):
Nobody really knew what it was in the beginning, I felt,
and like, so for me, I just was like, this
is a great way to show what I'm doing and
show my life and show my work, and you know,
it just became this thing. And then on say yes,
it grew and you know, over a million followers. And
I really loved it because I consider myself sometimes a
little bit antisocial. Like I'm good in events and like

(26:06):
big settings, but like I don't have like a huge
network of friends like close to me or anything. So
I was like, operate alone and social media is really
fun because you can kind of show up when you want,
and like it was just so easy and so I
loved it. And then I ended up actually having to
turn over my account when the lawsuit hit and they
argued the ownership of it and everything, and I'm still

(26:29):
fighting for it. But the most recent update there is
I appealed it in the second circuit and they used
basic property law to say that this is actually that
you have to look at it in terms of property law.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Was it ever transferred? How was it opened? You know
what I mean?

Speaker 3 (26:44):
Okay, so did you open your Instagram account after you
had signed this contract?

Speaker 4 (26:48):
Yes? So I opened it?

Speaker 3 (26:50):
So your deal did not really include the Instagram because
you didn't even have a.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
Designer just a designer.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Yeah, like what if you would have never opened an
Instagram or a TikTok?

Speaker 4 (26:58):
Like were you?

Speaker 6 (26:59):
I can't imagine, I know, why not have even happened?
Now I'm starting to think what if I leased a car?

Speaker 5 (27:04):
Like, like what else?

Speaker 6 (27:05):
Like what other contracts if I you know the way
that it's kind of been interpreted, and this is obviously
from just my opinion and experience, but you know, it's
it opens like a whole, like, well, how do you
decide this versus this and any.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Entity that has your brand in it is belongs to
them even if it no matter what.

Speaker 6 (27:25):
I guess that's kind of how you could look at
the way they're arguing. But but yeah, so basically with
this Instagram, it when I opened the account. I used
my birth date and my cell phone and my location,
and I just you know, agreed to Facebook and Instagram's
terms of services, you know, and started my account.

Speaker 4 (27:45):
It wasn't like, you know, I'm going to be a.

Speaker 6 (27:49):
Social media director and start like you know, making money
or making brand deals for the you know, nothing like that.
And yeah, so now that we were in the second circuit,
that's basically how they're looking at it, which is really
major for case law.

Speaker 5 (28:02):
So you're like, this is like a moment in time
for like social media.

Speaker 6 (28:07):
Case new case laws being made. Yes, exactly, so we'll
see what happens. I mean, everything is open ended. It's
still moving that my former employer is actually bankruptcy court
right now, and so that's interesting. So I don't know,
but I my true hope and desire is that I
actually do get my account back, and it's rightful possession
and praying for that every day.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
So basically, you started this Instagram account, it was posting
all your life, regular life, and then your brand really
took off and really grew, and then it became focused.
The Instagram account became focused on your designer work mainly
not really actually the whole time you're still intertwining your

(28:49):
personal right.

Speaker 6 (28:50):
It's always been you know, electrically. I mean, it was
always my personal account first and showing up as a
human and okay, so that was consistent. Yeah, And now
that I have done influencer deals and brand deals, you know,
it's like, you know, you sign a contract, you know
when you're posting, you know how often you're posting all
the restrictions and things that go into it, and it's

(29:10):
like none of that. There was none of that, Like
I just posted whatever the heck I wanted, you know,
and whenever. And you know, I took a break during
like big moments in history, you know, with Black Lives
Matter movement, and so like, you know, I just did it. However,
I felt like I wanted to show up. And obviously
it has been interpreted in totally different ways. But you know,
I do think in this kind of scenario, karma is currency.

(29:33):
And when you have an audience and you're showing up
for people every day, they see it, they know, you know.
And for me, my saving grace has really been the
public court because all these brides and all these people
I met in the way along the way, they got
to know me, They were there, you know, they grew
with me, and so for them to watch what had
happened to me, it was infuriating, I think for a

(29:55):
lot of people because it felt like a tarnishing of
something that wasn't it was that, you know, that was
trying to be painted. And so that for me, I
think kept my head above water for a really long time.
It is just knowing I had this amazing community behind me.

Speaker 5 (30:11):
When did the tables turn?

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Like?

Speaker 3 (30:13):
Because if you started the Instagram as you the human,
and then you put a lot of focus probably on
your designer work, but still the human you had been
showing up the whole time. Why was there a moment
where it's like, this is not okay. You cannot show
up as a human on your account. You have only
can be the brand. You can only presented as a brand,

(30:34):
be presented as a brand.

Speaker 5 (30:36):
Like, when did that moment turn?

Speaker 1 (30:38):
There?

Speaker 6 (30:38):
Really wasn't that moment for me? I actually had my
password up until the TRO was granted and I had
to turn over my personal password within twenty four hours
to this company. Should I know what TRO is? It's
a temporary restraining order. You got a tiperary restraint I
also have a contempt motion. I am like adulting on
another level in this and like in the court world, it.

Speaker 4 (30:59):
Is it has been so scary.

Speaker 5 (31:00):
But also the restraining order against yourself no, I mean I.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Guess your own name, right, but like against your own basically.

Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yes, that's what it was.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
You cannot use your own name. You're restrained against using
your own name. Now that is next level.

Speaker 6 (31:14):
Yeah, it was pretty scary because we had been negotiating
for almost a year and a half while I was
working for the company, and I was trying to, you know,
find a way to make this work, and so you were.

Speaker 5 (31:25):
Trying to renegotiate. That's when this all happened.

Speaker 6 (31:28):
Contact was coming to and end, and that was the
first time I really brought in a legal counsel and
was like, let's look at this and let's see, you know,
what we can make happen here. And the hostility and
the environment and there was a lot going on there
that was just extremely traumatizing for me. But eventually it
resulted in the company just filing a federal lawsuit against
me and it had to do with my name. And
then all of a sudden, this Instagram and like all

(31:50):
this stuff kind of you just own in.

Speaker 5 (31:52):
That you had been doing normally the whole time.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
They didn't care about the whole time, and now all
of a sudden when you're renegotiating.

Speaker 5 (31:57):
It's it's act.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
It's up.

Speaker 5 (31:58):
It had ever been a factor.

Speaker 6 (32:00):
No, it was not incorporated into any one of my contracts.
Never was this like you're going to do this and
you're going to run it on this, you know, like,
nothing like that. And you know, the way it was presented,
obviously it was convincing or I don't I don't know
how to say it, but like you know, it obviously
went a certain way in the courts, and like the

(32:21):
truth is is I have to respect a court system.
You know, you have to just say, like, this is
what's happening, and I'm going to keep fighting and I'm
going to keep doing what I think is right as
long as the resources last. But when I had to
turn over my personal passwords to the company and I
lost the right to use my name, and then now

(32:41):
most recently, I can't I basically cannot identify to the trade.

Speaker 5 (32:45):
You can't identify to the trade.

Speaker 6 (32:47):
So I cannot identify to the trade as a designer
in any of the categories. My former employer manufacturers the cells.
So essentially I cannot identify as a wedding dress designer, correct,
But I can't do it no matter what name I'm using.
So it's me, the actual human being that can't. It
doesn't matter what are you saying that right?

Speaker 5 (33:02):
There? Is that illegal?

Speaker 4 (33:04):
No, that's actually from the ruling, So I can say that.

Speaker 6 (33:07):
I mean, I.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
Definitely formally identify as a wedding dress designer.

Speaker 6 (33:10):
That's exactly the language. So like I've been, I've tried
to be so respectful and like this is exactly what
it says, and so this is kind of insane.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
It just like maddening.

Speaker 6 (33:19):
Well it's also scary too because I feel like I've
been so inaccurately portrayed. I want to be able to
share with people exactly what's going on. It's been a
public case, so there's a lot of case filings you
can look at and you know, catch up to speed,
but it's just been ongoing for three years. And so
the non compete aspect of this, which is basically a

(33:40):
restriction on trade, was the hardest set of everything, from
my name to my social media, this one was a
banger because I realized everything has to do with identity
right now, right, and like your sense of self is
being challenged. But I think I identified the most as
a wedding dress design, more than my own name, more
than like how I scheep.

Speaker 3 (33:58):
Social who you are is maybe the most part of
who you are. It was, And then they're like, cause
you're seven years old and this is what you.

Speaker 5 (34:05):
Were going to eat.

Speaker 6 (34:06):
And then when you double down on something like triple down,
like all I did was practice the female form and
how to make beautiful dresses from start to finish, you know,
and then it's like, I actually can't do that anymore,
Like I actually cannot and I'm not even getting paid.
It's not a paid, not a provision. I'm not getting royalties.
I'm not getting commissioned on any of the dresses. There's
sill manufacturing and selling. So it is very very like

(34:28):
by this is restrictive. This is what the ruling says.
And I think it was really shocking to people because
they're like, how does something like this happen? And a
lot of it again comes back to that original contract
of course, but how it is actually being interpreted, right,
So it's it's just really interesting. And when you're in
that kind of scenario, you have some soul searching, right

(34:50):
because you're like, wait, I feel like this you proh
the mat Yeah, I mean it was. It was the
moment of like it was rock bottom, and then you
realize there's something e lower.

Speaker 5 (35:00):
There's like a trap door.

Speaker 4 (35:01):
There's the trap door exactly, and then the trap.

Speaker 5 (35:04):
Door just leads to the free fall into the black abyss.

Speaker 4 (35:06):
Yes, like the moon door in Game of Thrones.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
But you're like, there's no landing spot. I'm just free
falling into nothingness. That's exactly how it's grabbing for anything
and nothing to grab and you're like, what is actually
happening here?

Speaker 5 (35:19):
Is this a nightmare? But not, it's your real life going.

Speaker 6 (35:22):
To It went from like fairytale to scarytale real quick.
But which should also be wedding.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Which like say yes to the dress, like you have
this amazing fairytale wedding, and then it can also gosh.

Speaker 5 (35:33):
You're dealing with the extremities here.

Speaker 4 (35:34):
Yeah, and then now it's say yes to the mess.
I joke, I joke, but yeah that's true.

Speaker 6 (35:39):
We actually haven't had a chance to really go back
and dive into it. But it's been ongoing. But what
I've really learned to do is put it in a box,
Like put what in a box? The entire thing of
like the trauma and the lawsuit and losing all my
money and like everything has to be here, losing your.

Speaker 5 (35:56):
Full identity that you had locked into your whole life.

Speaker 6 (35:58):
Like it almost felt like that for a minute, you know,
But what I realized is it's like again going through
these moments holding on to the inside of me of like, oh,
I just I just want to create and make women
feel happy, you know, Like that's what I want to do. Like,
let's find another way to do that, right, Like for you, it's.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
Basic picking up yourself by the bootstraps, Parkle bootstraps of course, gosh, reinventing,
rebrand and creating a whole new brand after that. But like,
let's talk about this moment though. What happens when obviously
it's not your full identity. You are not a wedding
dress designer.

Speaker 5 (36:33):
Can I say that?

Speaker 4 (36:34):
Yes you can?

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Okay, so you're not that, but it felt like that
was all that you are and now it's completely being
taken away. What happens when you lose your full identity?
Like especially your public identity. You're so loved, people are
loving your dresses. I mean, it's like a big awesome
thing that's happening in your life and now it's all gone,

(36:54):
all of it.

Speaker 5 (36:55):
Yeah, it was how do you navigate? What did you do?

Speaker 4 (36:58):
Where did you go? Where did I go?

Speaker 6 (37:00):
Well, at the time, I felt very lucky to still
have the family and the environment around me and these
amazing people that showed up for me, and there was
a real quick getting up to the community that gave
me again this sense of responsibility of like I need
to keep showing up and getting through this, and like

(37:21):
the option is not to go. I know, the option
is not to go crawl under a rock, even though
I think for a while I did for a hot minute.
And like the unseen hours was an interesting place for
me because me like the unceen hours of like, you know,
you're not showing it on social media, you're doing what
you need to do to deal with the grief of it, right,
the grieving hours, absolutely, but I also just felt like
when something that you feel like you can do, you

(37:44):
no longer can do it, and especially being the competitor
I am, and somehow being under a non compete.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
I was like, wait, what you know, like hold on
and let me.

Speaker 5 (37:52):
Get on stair.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
So you just have to render over you do you
have no choice with no fight fight.

Speaker 6 (37:57):
It's like getting red shirted kind of right, like you're
sitting on when you're the.

Speaker 5 (38:00):
Star, when you're the one who should be the first string.

Speaker 6 (38:03):
That's so nice of you to say. I definitely never
considered myself, you know, like, oh, man, like you, you
should be in a game. I felt like I should
be in the game, and I felt like the world
would be better for it. And I say that very confidently,
even though I have trouble with my own confidence at times.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
I just feel like.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
It would have been better for me to be able
to do what I can do, because I feel like
I could have brought even more women joy, brought more
business to small businesses, like I think it would have
helped the economy. And so when I think about that
from a competition standpoint, I decided to take it as
a compliment.

Speaker 4 (38:32):
Wow, that I was a threat.

Speaker 5 (38:34):
Wow, how did you you know? Like, how did you
have this?

Speaker 4 (38:37):
Somehow balls to do that?

Speaker 5 (38:40):
Like I would be under a rock, dead meat for sure.

Speaker 3 (38:43):
How did you have the tenacity to be like, Okay,
this is a compliment.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
That way, like exactly like that, like Brennan Barrett. Yeah,
it is not a usual circumstance. And when you're an accept.

Speaker 6 (39:00):
In this particular scenario, like you think of being exceptional,
so like it's a positive spin. But I also just
think you have to decide where your energy goes. And
if you defeat and you succumb to the doom of it,

(39:23):
you're gonna go nowhere, right, you have no choice. Actually
felt like I had no choice but to like find
a way to at least move forward, not move on,
but move forward.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
That's it, Like what is that?

Speaker 6 (39:35):
And honestly, it was like, ooh, shoes because you step forward.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
You know.

Speaker 5 (39:39):
This is the.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Fact that you could create a whole brand with wedding dresses,
be so successful like iconic in that field, and then
hit the mat, have everything taken from you, and then
start a whole another brand like shoes. How does one
do that? To build something again from the scratch, like
to start from the bottom again, to like to oh

(40:04):
my god, how do you even like start again?

Speaker 6 (40:09):
I think of my grandma, like baking when the dough's bad,
you know, or something like you have to start over
kind of bake from scratch. But I also decided not
to think of reinvention, and this whole thing is really starting.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
Over because I did have skill sets that were transferable.
I did learn a lot.

Speaker 6 (40:28):
I learned the hard way, and I think I am
just somebody that needed to learn that way, right, Like,
this is God telling me this is what your journey
is going to be. You can handle it, though, you know,
like wink, you know, like hmm, okay, fine, you know,
like I'm gonna put you hard through the fire, but
you're gonna come out even a brighter diamond. That's what
I was hoping, like the yeah, the grit, no grit,
no pearls, right, no pressure, no diamonds.

Speaker 5 (40:48):
Always like where are you going it?

Speaker 3 (40:49):
We're gonna make this a big shiny diamond here. But
we're going hard into the fire and the grit.

Speaker 6 (40:54):
But I think there's also some bit of freedom in Okay,
well what else could possibly happen? Point, you know, like
with respect to what was going on, I was like,
I don't feel vulnerable anymore, right, I don't. I don't
feel vulnerable in that going through this. It's not like
I became more confident, right because I had to start over.

(41:14):
I'd just starting a new trade. I have to learn
something new. But I'm just not as scared of people anymore.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
And it's already been so bad.

Speaker 6 (41:21):
It's been bad, it's been often, and I'm still here,
thank goodness, you know.

Speaker 5 (41:24):
But it's kind of how you can make it through anything.

Speaker 6 (41:26):
But yeah, now I'm kind of like, eh, let them
do whatever they need to do, you know. And like
maybe it's the emotion that I've kind of been able
to tame a little bit better.

Speaker 5 (41:36):
Not reacting and just getting lost. I have that so bad.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
I've been triggered lately where it's like something hits. I
thought I had done all this therapy work and all
this stuff and I was so levelheaded and then oh.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
My god gets you.

Speaker 5 (41:47):
It gets you, And like the reaction of yourself is
shocking for me, Like what am I saying? What did
I just like?

Speaker 3 (41:52):
How did that send me into the stratosphere of this
other human? But you can't help it, but you've learned
how now to like catch your emotions.

Speaker 6 (42:01):
You definitely have to practice at it. It's a proper
at it, because I do think there's something to being
really passionate and like heartening with things, and I don't
want to lose my ability to be emotional in my work,
right and like a sentimental designer, I think is it's
the best kind of designer. But with business, like you
just like you really have to put on a different hat.

(42:24):
And so I've kind of learned to do that. And oh,
you know, it's just business, but like really it is emotional,
you know, And if you can be the less emotional
person and figure out a way to be strategic, you're
probably gonna come out better. Even if you feel like
you can convince someone, you shouldn't waste your time convincing
somebody who's already committed to misunderstanding you.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
Right oh oh oh oh oh.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
Even if you can convince someone, you probably say that again,
that was really good.

Speaker 6 (42:51):
Uh, Like you don't want to waste time trying to
convince somebody who is like already committed to misunderstanding you, right,
Like you just why there's so many people that are
already going to be on your side, So I try
to make this one turn to your side and like,
maybe it won't work out, Let's move on to the next,
you know. And it's like so simple, you know, and
so like if you can kind of remind yourself with

(43:11):
that at times when it's not really worth it to
get that emotionally invested, I think it's important and savor
the emotions for when it really counts. It's hard to do,
but I feel like that's something I've been practicing, especially
in like the new business. You know, you feel you
face a whole new sete of challenges, especially as a
small business owner. I've never run a business, right, and like,
now I'm learning this. Let's put on the business cap

(43:33):
and learn P and L statements, you know, And it's.

Speaker 5 (43:35):
So that they were they running the business.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (43:38):
So in my former situation, I was really just an employee, so.

Speaker 5 (43:41):
You didn't have to do any of the business park.

Speaker 6 (43:43):
I just got to be the creator. And you know,
I think I would have been excited to take on
more of that role. But now that I'm I had
no choice and it's I'm going to be an entrepreneur.

Speaker 4 (43:52):
Now you'd see it as.

Speaker 6 (43:53):
That, Like I do feel like I'm much better being
a creator. But I'm so happy and energized being an
old dog learning new tricks, you know, in the sense
of like I've had a lot of life to live
and what a blessing it is to kind of learn
this new chapter. And now when we're released and we're
allowed to do more things, or we decide to go

(44:15):
into other product lines, we have a much better lens
of like knowing what we're capable of and where we
need to bring support in, whether it's capital investors, whether
it's partners, whether it's you know, you start to really
appreciate that, yes, this experience is the best way to learn,
but the wisest of people learn from other people's mistakes.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
I know.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
I wish I could just do that now, Like people
write all these books, people tell you all these things.
There's all these gurus and they're like, just do this,
just do what I say.

Speaker 5 (44:41):
And I'm like, no, no, no, I want to go.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
I want to go set myself on fire and just
like run around naked in the parking lot and see
if I explode.

Speaker 5 (44:51):
Let me try that first, and then maybe y'all listen
to you.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
I just heard this thing the other day.

Speaker 6 (44:55):
Is like for once, I would like things to spiral
and to control, like but like that's it's going this
way like a firework, and like, oh shoot, did I
just set that off inside.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
Yes, I have an app I have in my notes now,
I have life rules. So as soon as I learn
a life rule, because I've been learning so many lessons,
particularly in this season of my life, that I'm like,
when I get a hard lesson that I learned, I
like write it in my notes and I'm like, I
need to like put this paintuss on my wall, tattooed
on my arm or something. But like, it is so
hard to learn these big life lessons. So what should

(45:27):
we look for in contracts now? Because obviously this all
comes back to you signing a contract that really wasn't
a great contract, but here it is. It's a contract,
And so what should we look for in contracts? Like
what would what would you do differently? Now?

Speaker 4 (45:41):
Hire a lawyer? Number one, Well it seems easy, but
apparently it's a kind of difficult.

Speaker 6 (45:47):
But yeah, hire a lawyer obviously trusts what people do
and not what they say. And in that scenario, it's
like it needs to be in paper. It's got to
be written down. It cannot be like, oh we'll figure
that out later. Oh everything's negotiable any of that stuff.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
But like, let's not worry about that we'll get to
that later. Don't sign it, but it's not a big deal.
We'll come back around.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
Put it on a favorite.

Speaker 6 (46:07):
That one, And then I think the third is to
keep in mind that yes, it's a paper document, it
is a contract, but you are also making an agreement
with another partner, another person, and the quality of that
being is very, very important, and you don't always know

(46:27):
what to expect or what could happen. And while you
might be somebody like me who wears her heart on
a sleeve and wants to believe the best of you
all this good stuff, you know, you can still be
enthusiastic and like excited about what you want to do
and protect yourself and so like just do your best
to make sure that there is a real exit strategy
for everyone, that both partners are being considered or parties

(46:48):
are being considered, and that you take time, like if
anyone is rushing you.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Red flag urgency, Yes, oh yes, urgency, my therapy. Just
tell me anything this urgent is not of like, is
not true? Yes, I know, business then yeah, yeah, business
learning about that?

Speaker 4 (47:04):
Go ahead?

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Yeah, okay, So I feel like you kind of struggled
though in the gray zone of the contract though, so
like for people listening who are like, Okay, what is
that gray zone that you would do differently now, like
instead of that really kind of like messed you up?
And was it because you were renegotiating and you were
wanting it to be more black and white and you
were wanting more like more ownership, more probably financial, like

(47:28):
all the more of everything because now you've built this brand,
they're saying, no, you can't have more.

Speaker 5 (47:32):
We want to keep you the same, and then the
gray zone happens.

Speaker 6 (47:36):
Yeah, I think the gray zone is really just a
managing of expectations, right, and what people are wanting. And
you know, from my experience and in my particular situation,
I just knew the current status of like what things
like there wasn't enough really articulated and considered for what
I felt. I felt like I'd take it on and

(47:57):
like things needed to be really properly put in there.
Instagram is a perfect example. It was never like social
media is not I'm a designer, I'm not a content creator,
and like content creator is not my job. That wasn't
even to thank for it is that, yes, and that
was not a thing.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
But now it's such a thing, and everyone probably would
consider it in a contract. Now you have teams, but yeah,
doing it, But then no one would consider social media exactly.

Speaker 6 (48:21):
So I think the gray area is really about the
circumstances and expectations and the advice I is tough to
give because it's not general. And I also say this
like very humbly, like I am not the authority. I
don't think on this like for the obvious reason. I

(48:42):
do have some experience, and so I'm happy to be
the example of what not to do. But I think
every single situation is nuanced. There are a lot of
circumstances and variables that need to go into it, and
you do need to take your time and look for
resources out there, because it's like Star Wars, there is
light side and there's dark side, and like you do
want to be a Jedi in approaching this, and like

(49:03):
learning how to control the force is like the best
way to say it kind of. But our foundation is
actually set up to do that. When I put this
out into the world that like, this happened to me
and here's a big problem, and I didn't solve that.
You know, the foundation was a way for me to say,
let's provide resources or referrals to pro bono attorneys or

(49:23):
law firms that offer those kind of you know, free
resources or whatever. And then let's share these kind of stories.
Let's share the stories of entrepreneurs and smart business women
that made some mistakes and that are picking themselves up
by the bootstraps and learning new ways and share those secrets,
because I think we're all very eager to explain what
worked right, like this worked, but it's always dependent on

(49:46):
their circumstance and their situation. Whereas if you explain what
didn't work and you kind of flip it, you know,
it's looking at it from a different way of like, okay,
well the process of elimination, let's not do those few things.
Even if we don't know how we're going to start it,
We're not going to do those things.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
And finding out what doesn't work is honestly, someone is
more valuable than what does work, because everyone comes to
the highlightrail, but like what what crashed and burned?

Speaker 5 (50:22):
You know, like that's so the found it? What's the
foundation called?

Speaker 4 (50:25):
A girl? You might know?

Speaker 5 (50:26):
A girl? You might oh, because I could be all
of us.

Speaker 6 (50:28):
That's what I went by for the two year period.
I was still in contract contract extension period.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
So you're there to help other budding women entrepreneurs not
get lost in the mess of the big world of
the legal Okay, Captain Morgan, I see a microphone in
your hand.

Speaker 5 (50:47):
I cannot wait to hear what you have.

Speaker 7 (50:48):
To saying so ironic. We have you on today because
I just went through a contract negotiation and you came
to my mind immediately. When I was going through it,
I carved out my personal social accounts literally wrote in
the handles of each individual one cookie you are. But
I was so well, I mean because of you.

Speaker 4 (51:06):
But my question is what was.

Speaker 7 (51:08):
Written in your contract that allowed them to take your name?
Is it just because the dress brand itself was your name,
so they've got the trademarks.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
They own them.

Speaker 7 (51:20):
Was it using your likeness and image and perpetuity instead
of just through the term of the agreement. I know
I'm getting into the leads here, but I'm curious because
I just inked a deal myself.

Speaker 6 (51:30):
Yeah, I'm like so afraid to answer this question fully
transparently because I don't want to get in trouble. But
what I can how I can answer this is by saying, basically,
in a lawsuit, there's just arguments presented, right, and like,
this is how we're arguing it, this is how we're
interpreting it. And in my case, because there was a transfer,

(51:51):
I gave the rights for my name to be trademarked,
and there was the word perpetuity and there were other
things Like the way it's kind of been argued, it
kind of all encompassing. And so to your you know,
knowledge and what you did in your contract, it's very
smart to get really specific, you know, and to have
those little nuggets that are like it can be this,

(52:13):
this and this, except this this and this, you know,
and like the more specific you can be, the better.
And yeah, again like I never could have ever imagined
it being interpreted that way, but it is. And so
it's really it's it was frightening it first, and now
I just kind of find it like it is what

(52:34):
it is, even though I don't even know what it is,
and there it is.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
You know.

Speaker 7 (52:38):
It's like I was actually following you when all of
this happened, and I was one of those angry people
that you mentioned, just thinking how and I don't want
to say anything that's going to get you in trouble.
But I'm like you, she is the brand, Like, how
do you carry on the brand without her? Surely they did,
but I mean it's like a boring drop account now
that your litterism sprinkled all over it.

Speaker 4 (52:58):
So more two cents.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
Back to you, Caroline. I think that's so. I'm so
glad Morgan, You're so Steve. Morgan's so smart. She knows
how to talk legal. She knows all these things like
talk legal to me, Morgan, tell me all all the
all the dirty talk, bad girl.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Love that.

Speaker 5 (53:13):
I love it, but.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
It is so frightening and it is so overwhelming, and
it is so much and oh my god.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (53:21):
So they're saying, yeah, okay, okay, I mean I think
that's it.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
I don't even know how to like dive back more
into this because it's just such a mess. But they're
basically saying, we want to keep it the same, and
you're saying, I don't want to keep it the same.
And then they're saying, Okay, now we're gonna dive in
and we're gonna take everything.

Speaker 4 (53:33):
That's a good way to look at it.

Speaker 5 (53:34):
Yeah, you don't want to keep it the same. Anymore.

Speaker 6 (53:37):
It just didn't make sense and like it was already
expiring anyway, and so it needed to be.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
Addressed because you have just left and it would have
just gone away or did you have to renegotiate?

Speaker 6 (53:46):
Actually, now that I know what I know, I am
not convinced that I really had an opportunity to leave
a very scary, hostile situation, which which is that's another
thing to think about, you know, when you're writing your
contracts and stuff, is that there needs to be a
real opportunity for you to not be forced to work
in a situation that is stry excess strategy. Yeah, so,

(54:11):
I mean there's obviously a lot of nuanced lessons and
you know, even in how I'm kind of addressing this,
everything is from you know, my perspective and my experience
and totally from you know, my opinion. And I think
it's important to make that distinction because you know, it's you.
You only look at things from what you see and
what happens to you, right, And I'm not anti capitalism,

(54:34):
you know, like I believe that a company needs to
protect itself as well, and it needs to have a
contract in place, you know, just as much you know,
and but I do think two things can be true.
I think there is a way to have a scenario
where everyone benefits. I don't think that's some reckless optimism.
I think it's responsible. And I hope in my scenario,

(54:57):
you know, in what people have seen, I hope it
does give a little bit of It makes corporate responsibility
a very important thing to think about, because like with
these uh you know, radio and record label companies and everything,
that just kind of like we need to kind of
almost own this individual and the control you and you

(55:18):
don't really know, and then you're limited on what you
can do and where you can go and all this stuff.
It's like it's a way of them. It's an exercise
of control. But I find it to be a huge
weaponization of power. And I don't think it's necessary because
if that person is not willing to be the key
person and you don't have key person insurance, you know,
like you've got a problem, you know, and so like

(55:40):
it shouldn't. I don't think it should be looked at
from this like we have to make sure that it's
always within our control. I think there needs to be
responsibility on both sides and accountability, and it needs to
be fruitful so that everyone can make money, everyone can
do a good job, and it can feel right. And
so that's what our foundation is trying to do. And
it comes from not just my experience, but like you say,

(56:01):
the Taylor Swift situation, all these like YouTubers and chefs
and fitness people and everybody that's got a personal brand
now and how they can protect it because there are
obviously people that want to make money with you, and
then there's people that want to make money off of you.

Speaker 5 (56:14):
Oh that's a big distinction.

Speaker 6 (56:16):
It's a huge distinction, and it can't be okay in
certain scenarios. But I also just think again, having those
expectations up front and having the right contracts and working
with the right people.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
I feel like we're feeling that a lot more. Whereas before,
back in the day before social media really hit and
people could kind of become their own brand and have
exposure on their own without a big machine behind them.
You know, it's like people would sign these deals because
you didn't have a whole lot more options to get
out there. You know, you didn't have a lot of vehicles,

(56:47):
you didn't have a lot of ways to be seen
and heard. So you kind of had to link in
and they held all the power, and now we're kind
of realizing, Okay, I can hold my own power. I
don't need a big iron fist yeah, telling me exactly
what to do. And so I feel like that is
where we are now, or people like you you've gone
through this, it's like, I feel like it's shifting. People

(57:10):
won't sign those deals anymore because there's so many more outlets.

Speaker 6 (57:13):
I love what you just said. Everything about it is
spot on, and it's like, that's it. That's the takeaway.
It's that our world now has become so focused on
the power of the individual and what they are capable
of doing. And with social media and with your own
ability to harness your trajectory and your voice and your
narrative and all that, it puts you in a position

(57:35):
where you get to determine your worth. And yes, you're
going to want to bring partners in, and you're going
to want to find people that have distribution or a
bigger way for you to get out there, but you're
going to go in with that much more confidence and
a real platform so that you don't have to sign
a potentially debilitating or one sided contract. That takes away
all of your rights, you know, or even inadvertently or

(57:57):
you didn't know it, it probably won't have it as
much anymore, hopefully.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
And people are kind of exposing these big corporations in
these big brands, and they're like, what, this is not fair,
this is not right, this is in just like, you know,
this is not humane to do this. I don't know
if humane is the right word, but it's like, you know,
it's just it's not right.

Speaker 6 (58:13):
Civil liberties do come into question at times like that, so,
you know, and it needs to work.

Speaker 4 (58:18):
It like the system needs to work.

Speaker 6 (58:19):
There has to be those big companies and they do
need to have protections, but there has to be a better.

Speaker 4 (58:24):
Way, Like I believe it. There has to be a
better way.

Speaker 5 (58:27):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Okay, we're an hour and so I'm going to quickly
just move on to your new venture. This is Plotlin's
the year last one. What are we doing now? You've
reinvented yourself. You have come from the ashes Phoenix rising.
You are a horse running in the wild, unbridled with
glitter flowing out of your main what's going on? I
mean here you are You're just done it.

Speaker 5 (58:48):
Plotzy is awesome, Plotz. You've learned all these hard lessons.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Your diamond has been totally You've been in the fire.

Speaker 5 (58:56):
You've been whittled down.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Your diamond is chipped away, it is shining. All the
rough edges are gone.

Speaker 5 (59:03):
Here you are.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
What's happening now is what can we expect for Cheval?
What is going what are we manifesting in the future.
You're a huge manifestor obviously, but now you've learned all
these lessons. So now you're like lethal because you.

Speaker 5 (59:15):
Have the power to manifest.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
You're not scared to hit the rock bottom. That's right, totally,
the dumpster fire take over your entire existence, identity, everything.
Now you're rebuilding and here you are like shining with
your bright smile.

Speaker 5 (59:28):
You still got to enjoy.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
You're not letting it take you down. And you probably
have just like a sense of freedom.

Speaker 5 (59:35):
I mean, I don't know what you feel.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
But like also, like you said before, nobody can take
you down and you have all this knowledge, like you
are armed and ready to build this next brand. So
what can we expect? What are you looking forward to?
What is going on with Chaval? I love everything you
just said. You're so easy to talk to you, I
you are.

Speaker 6 (59:57):
I feel like there is a sense of freedom, of course,
because it's I'm already down, so like.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
You're not gonna take me down any further.

Speaker 6 (01:00:05):
But while I was down, I feel like I just
had these amazing people showing up for me. And they
were the casualties, right, they were the ones that got
impacted the most by this scenario. Despite me nearly going
bankrupt and you know, losing a lot, I realized that,
you know, moving forward and finding a new way to
express myself is what this is about. It's holding onto

(01:00:25):
my creativity, holding onto my joy. And while yeah, this
does suck, I can still be a pretty good person.
I can still be happy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:00:33):
I'm a bubbly happy person just even in my emotional
home at like Baseline, I'm pretty happy.

Speaker 5 (01:00:39):
That's amazing.

Speaker 6 (01:00:40):
It's amazing, and I recognize every day I'm like I gift.
I wake up most days happy. Like not everybody gets
that and feels that, and like.

Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
What is that that? What are you happy for them?

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:00:50):
I do have a higher connection, are you, like? What
is your what it is like?

Speaker 4 (01:00:54):
Mostly I'm happy.

Speaker 6 (01:00:55):
It's weird, and I think that's weird for people to
hear that that have a lot that are experiencing things
in life that just constantly beat them down. And I
feel like I can be a message for people of
you know, like it's not always going to be like that,
and I hope you know that for yourself. But I
do try to take care of myself and that, like
I love a good workout, I love to go walks,

(01:01:18):
Like I call a friend, and when I need to vent,
I call my mom, you know, like all the I
have these people in my life to be.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Careful who you vent to? So you just meant to
your mom. Dang, I've learned that, Like you can't get
to everybody. That's been a big lessons.

Speaker 6 (01:01:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
Oh, like when it's fresh on your mind, you don't
know how it's bubbling out of you. You kind of
just like say stuff and you're like, oh god, you
can't just vent everybody because then.

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
You trust people too. You're like, oh, I can trust
you and.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Tell you can just like one person like your mom, yeah,
or your sister.

Speaker 5 (01:01:44):
Really right, absolutely, I mean that's about it. You can't
tell the nitty gritty details everybody.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
It's tough. You have to pick and choose.

Speaker 6 (01:01:50):
That's that's part of the journey is learning who you
can really let in and like, who are the people
that are cut from the same cloth as you.

Speaker 5 (01:01:58):
That's a good one.

Speaker 6 (01:01:59):
But I think when you recognize that there are people
in your life that love you so much and they
just genuinely want you to do well, it's such a
special thing because a lot of us feel like people
are just trying to take it down, you know, all
the time, and it makes you want to do well right.
And I feel like I had this amazing community that

(01:02:19):
showed up and they just made me want to do
things like make things again right, and they they put
it out there. They were the muse the people that
I started following me on my new Instagram.

Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
You know your new Instagram.

Speaker 6 (01:02:30):
Oh, it's all the glitters on the gram. It's like
the long personal handle. Ever, so is that your personal?
That's like my personal? It was our podcast, but I
turned it into kind of my personal now, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
So are we separating personal and name now? Is that
a big distinction?

Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
I have three instagrams. I run them all.

Speaker 6 (01:02:45):
It's all the glitters on the gram Shishaval, which is
the business, but technically it's still my Like I still
run it like it is my personal way. And then
the foundation with the foundation, Oh a girl, you might know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Foundations are right, So you run all three, So I
run all three. Would you ever have your name be
a branded or would you always? Do you think there's
what's the benefit in the downfall of having your name
as the brand?

Speaker 5 (01:03:05):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:03:06):
I feel like everybody's scenario is different, so it's hard
to Again, it's like really hard to generalize those things.
I feel like your name is beautiful, and if it's
the brand name you want to go with, you should
do it. And you should just protect it right and
license it, own it for yourself and license it. You know,
if you're going to sign something where you are giving
rights to any part of your world, your talent, whatever

(01:03:30):
it needs to be protected, needs to be in the
right way. Yeah, and you should probably get paid for it,
like a good amount. Not just get a job, but
get paid for it if you're gonna do it. That's
my advice. Yeah, But yeah, I think it's a beautiful thing.
And like I would, of course name use my brand
or my name as my brand going forward and Chaval,

(01:03:51):
you know, as my alter ego, and I'm using it
as the brand name, of course, So I'm not afraid
of that. I just think you have to do it
in the right way.

Speaker 5 (01:03:58):
Do you feel different Asheval?

Speaker 4 (01:03:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:04:00):
Like what who is Chaval?

Speaker 4 (01:04:01):
Is like totally different than Hug Like who is she?
I like, I have to think about this.

Speaker 5 (01:04:08):
What's the difference between your birth given name and Chaval.

Speaker 6 (01:04:11):
I feel like Cheval doesn't take like she's not afraid
to kick up some dust, and I think because she's
kind of got a little bit of that warrior status
and like warrior.

Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
Yeah, Like I feel like she's just she's hard to
tame and I like that. I like that.

Speaker 6 (01:04:29):
But I think she is a little bit more cognizant
of some people might not be good, right, And that's
a hard lesson to learn too, because you want to
see most people are good. So Chaval is more like
tell me again, or tell me more about that, you know,
I question it, be skeptical, a little more skeptic.

Speaker 4 (01:04:48):
Yeah, I like that. And then.

Speaker 6 (01:04:51):
You know, any doors that Chaval kicks down she leaves open,
which is good for others.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:04:57):
Second, yeah, hopefully she creates a little bit of a
ripple or rising tide to lift all other ships you know,
it's like the mentality is like I've got some secrets,
I'll share them with you. I've got some major mistakes,
definitely share those with you. But yeah, I mean, anything
kind of goes. But she's she's definitely a girl ongoing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:05:13):
It's like work in progress, like we all are. And
some of it's I'm winging it like my eyeliner.

Speaker 6 (01:05:20):
Some of it and it's not always even. But yeah,
I don't know. I'm so happy for her.

Speaker 5 (01:05:25):
I'm so happy for she's also total badass.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Are you loving the new designs and creations like the shoes?

Speaker 5 (01:05:32):
Is that? Is that fun to enter a whole new field?

Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
Yeah, it's been a blast.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
You've loved it, of course you have, because you're happy,
like you're the happiest person on the planet.

Speaker 6 (01:05:39):
Yeah, I very am much happy with it. And the
shoes are challenging.

Speaker 5 (01:05:44):
I mean, how I awesome are these?

Speaker 6 (01:05:46):
You can't fit a shoe. You can totally tailor and
fit address, you cannot fit a shoe. So we've definitely
learned a lot about the manufacturing process and like quality
control and like when you see something that's not perfect,
like I like freak out. I'm like oh my gosh,
like that that's missing a rhinestone or that, like but
you realize it's a totally different product line and there's
different expectations and like you know, you're learning, and then

(01:06:08):
there's size runs and so like your inventory management's really
important and like what are your margins and like all
this stuff that I.

Speaker 5 (01:06:15):
Never sounds so stressful.

Speaker 4 (01:06:16):
It's extremely stressful.

Speaker 6 (01:06:17):
Yeah, And like the first piece of advice that I
got in shoes like actually got to meet Stuart Whitesman,
the Stewart Whitesman, and like it was epic, but like
a lot of that first exposure to the shoe world,
the general advice was that you're not going to make
money and shoes, so so you probably shouldn't do it really,
And I was like, Okay, I'm going to make shoes.

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
So I make shoes. Have we made money and shoes?

Speaker 6 (01:06:42):
Oh my gosh. We have definitely survived. We're not on
the stage of like this this like you know, like,
oh my gosh, we.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
You know, is that rain and dollar bills just you
not just yet or you're not like sinking oh.

Speaker 6 (01:06:55):
No, and we are like our trajectory and our momentum
has been so black by the community that's come with
us and that are helping us evolve together, and so
I pay my respects to that every day. It's like,
if you have, if you do put a product out
there in the world, you need the person. You need
the girl to wear them, and you need her to
love them, and she is your champion and she is

(01:07:16):
your hero and your ambassador. And like that's kind of
what we've invested in this brand, and we're going to
keep doing that. We're going to keep looking for things
that we can do that will bring women joy and
hopefully we'll do like handbags and other accessories. And I'm
still under limitations in what I can do, and that'll
be interesting as things unfold, because at some point there

(01:07:38):
is not.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
Going to be a lawsuit, which was like I can't.

Speaker 6 (01:07:42):
I'm gonna sing hello from the other side, not as
good as a del but I will sing it on social.

Speaker 5 (01:07:48):
Can we have a taste?

Speaker 6 (01:07:50):
I want to, like, you'll lose half your fan base
hearing me sing and screech into the phone. But yeah,
somebody else saying that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
That's amazing, You're amazing. What if force you are? I mean,
just to pick yourself up.

Speaker 5 (01:08:02):
And also shoes, like, shoes gonna hurt your feet, Like,
how do you make them not hurt?

Speaker 6 (01:08:06):
Well, the anatomy of a foot is very important to consider,
where the nerves are and all that, and the shapes
of the shoe and.

Speaker 5 (01:08:11):
Too many things to think about it.

Speaker 6 (01:08:12):
It's a lot to think about. But you know, no
matter what, what they'll tell you is, oh, these heels
are comfortable. What they mean to say is that you
can probably wear them for four to six hours, a
good amount of time. But no matter what, if you
were in heels, they are going to hurt after the
sixth hour, Like it's gonna happen. Yeah, you know, you're human,
so like, I like to be real with it. And
then we also are very clear that we're specialties, so

(01:08:34):
we're not for everybody. We love sparkling every year, slippers
with the big boughs. I'm like dead for ridiculous. Okay,
I'll send them to you, but yeah, we just we're
having a lot of fun. And I have the most
incredible business partner. And I'm so blessed because.

Speaker 5 (01:08:47):
I'm sure you had a different deal with a different
yeah legal deal.

Speaker 4 (01:08:51):
She's actually she was my sales director for almost ten years.

Speaker 5 (01:08:54):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (01:08:55):
So she is literally my ride or die and.

Speaker 5 (01:08:57):
You'll probably just built a deal that was so good
for both of y'all.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
That's right. We are, we are onwards and upwards, and
we write it down.

Speaker 5 (01:09:03):
So yeah, I freaking love you, Okay. I always wrap
with leave your Light.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
I don't even know what kind of information it's what
do you want people to know? I mean, there's so
much because you've dropped so much wisdom, knowledge, learning lessons.
What do you want people to take away from you?

Speaker 5 (01:09:18):
Your experience, your journey.

Speaker 6 (01:09:20):
The heart comes, the hard times come, and if you
cannot let it jade you. It's so important because it
is holding on to your enthusiasm and your passions. So
much of life I think attempts to strip you down
of that, and it might change you, it might mold
you, you might have to shape shift at times. But if
you can really hold on to that literal heart and soul,

(01:09:43):
like I say, I went from designing from the heart
to now I'm designing from my soul.

Speaker 4 (01:09:47):
But like the soul of issue.

Speaker 6 (01:09:48):
Oh but that's it's so good for you.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
It's so good for you. If you can do that,
that's self care.

Speaker 5 (01:09:57):
You're amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:58):
I cannot w to see your journey continued to unfold.

Speaker 5 (01:10:03):
Your such a light and what a story. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
Will you stick around for a quick, little bonus episode where.

Speaker 5 (01:10:10):
We answer some burning questions. Oh, it's a little game.

Speaker 4 (01:10:12):
I'm never leaving. I want to leave Nashville.

Speaker 5 (01:10:15):
Okay, we're gonna ask some burning questions.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
So y'all tune in on Thursday and we're gonna have
chavale answering.

Speaker 5 (01:10:20):
Some burning questions. You're the best. Thank you so much,
Thank you

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