May 20, 2020 • 50 mins
Joy Williams is a singer/songwriter most famously known for her part in the former duo, The Civil Wars. Joy talks about what life looks like after reaching some of your biggest dreams and also seeing them fall apart. She describes her latest project, Front Porch, and taking a break and getting back to what she loves has made some of her best music yet. Joy also explains why drinking with Adele and tattoos go hand in hand.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the
Velvet Edge podcast. I will be back with an all
new podcast next week, but I wanted to share one
of my all time favorite podcast with singer songwriter Joy Williams.
Most of you probably remember Joy from the hit duo
The Civil Wars. She opened up about the rocky road
that band took and why they ultimately had to dissolve
the relationship. Joy is now out on her own and
(00:22):
her music is amazingly calming and beautiful. But even more
than simply music, I learned so many inspiring lessons from
hearing Joy's journey of life, triumphs and defeats. She's an
amazing soul and an instant friend, and I can't wait
for you guys to hear all the wisdom she dropped
on this podcast. Here's our conversation. I'm here with Joy Williams.
(00:43):
I feel like we're fast friends. We just literally sat
down and it was we just off to the races.
We went in the interior design, we covered a lot
of things. You know, Andrew glasses right now today are
matching the wall that now I'm asking about pay colors
about So I'm feeling very on brand today. Okay, so
(01:05):
most people probably do know you from the Civil Wars,
wouldn't you say, oh yeah, or that girl from the
Civil Wars girl? Right? How did that go with? Like
do people huge career before and now after? Well, it's
an interesting thing that a lot of people don't know
that I started in faith based music when I was seventeen. Yeah,
so most people do know me from you know, when
(01:26):
I was in my mid to late twenties in you know,
in this Americana folk duo. But before I was singing
songs that were like super pop and like very churchy um.
And I was raised in a pretty conservative way growing up.
I grew up in northern California most of my life,
but which was an odd combo to grow up in
Santa Cruz County and and then grew up in a
(01:46):
really conservative household. Yeah, I do not associate the two. No,
neither do I and I grew up in it. But
somehow I think it kind of it played into everything
else that's happened, you know, moving forward. It brought like
this openness and this curiosity city about you know, what
does life look like in the juxtaposition of like, how
all of these things worked together to form us into
(02:07):
who we are. Um. But I left doing that kind
of music when I was twenty three. I just felt
like I was feeling really hemmed in and my world
view was shifting and deepening in a different way and um,
and I didn't know what I was going to do.
I mean, I sat on my couch for a good
solid several months and it's like what I started at seventeen,
(02:28):
So yeah, I mean that is similar graduating high school. Yeah,
and I did, but back and forth, like flying recording
my album my senior year and um, and then just
like trying to get to volleyball practice on time. So
it was like an interesting way to grow. But once
I moved to Nashville on my own at eighteen, I
had no idea what lay ahead. So it was lots
(02:50):
of trial and error and I was on the road
like two fifty days my first year, eighteen bus full
of bros. Let me just say I don't recommend and
that totally. I mean, you learn really really quickly how
to hold your ground and um and stay with yourself
and it was really fun. Some of it was really great,
(03:10):
but by the time I got to the Civil Wars,
you know, I'd already been in the industry several years,
you know, almost almost a decade, and so it was
funny when people would say that it's like it was
an overnight success, you know, and it's like I took
some time, you know. It's like small hinges on a
really large door. I'd spent a lot of time being
(03:32):
on the road meeting people, learning how to write songs
and craft those and and it was so good. It
was such a great learning experience for me personally and professionally.
It was really painful in some ways too, But I, UM,
I've learned the importance of UM staying with myself and
(03:54):
what happens when I don't, and and how important it
is to trust my instincts and UM and to not
be afraid to speak up when that needs to happen.
And I think we as women, women and men. I
shouldn't just say women, but I think women and men somehow,
at different points in time, we get cultured to think
that we can't speak up when we need to, when
(04:16):
we when we really ought to. And so I learned
that kind of the hard way. But I will say
that I got to do like bucket, Like like bucket
list experiences, you know, like meeting Paul McCartney and like
hanging out. I mean, the list could go on and
on and on about the things that I'd always hoped
to do in my career, working my ass off to
(04:39):
get to that spot and finally experiencing that was really awesome.
And then I describe it as a little bit like
seeing the backside of Disney World, that it's really exciting.
And then you turn around and you go, Okay, there's
a lot more to life than just this as well.
You work really really hard to get to a certain
place and then you see it and you go, oh wait,
(05:00):
there's more and not more stuff or like more accolades
to get, but it means there's more in life to
to look at what really matters to you and why
and um and that taught me. That era taught me
that in a really stark way. Wow, that's a huge
part of the owning yourself. I think it's used. But
if you started at seventeen, didn't don't you feel like
you had to learn that pretty fast? Jeez? I mean yeah,
(05:22):
And what a weird way to like learn about yourself
while people clap for you every night? Right? That can
really tweak with your brain. And I don't I don't
say that as like why why. I mean, that's not
like a crime or river. Um. It just was what
it was. It was how I how I grew up.
But it was really good that when I left doing
(05:43):
music in that way at that age that I had
a lot of time. I mean, I didn't know what
I was going to do. I hadn't finished college. I
didn't even go I mean I graduated validictorian from my
high school and didn't go to college because I already
had this career. How did you graduate valedictorian? You're like
going back and forth music. I am a nerd, really smart.
I am a nerd. I am a nerd. I don't
(06:06):
know if I don't know, if I I don't know,
I don't know what makes someone smart or not. But
I but I didn't. I was a kid that was like,
let me see if I can do that, let me
see if I can do that, let me try that.
I think I can do that. And at the time,
I was like that kid that just really always wanted
the gold star. Yeah, And I think I think some
of that was helpful and some of that wasn't you know,
I laughed that I've been a recovering perfectionist. Same, yeah,
(06:30):
I can tell I can't. Well, it takes one to
no one. It takes one to no one, I know.
But but also it sitting down with you, I can
tell you're very kind, and I can also tell you're
probably really hard on yourself exactly, so you're very empathetic.
I am you are too, so you feel it, yeah,
(06:52):
I do, and them. And that's why I would probably
be fun if you and I had a cocktail afterwards,
because we'd probably it's a little earlier day, but not now.
But yeah, I mean, I think it's life finds a
way to handy your own ass and to remind you
and to remind you that it's not about doing things perfectly.
It's about showing up to the best of your ability
(07:14):
with your heart and your and your integrity intact, and
that will get challenged as we grow, you know, and
mistakes happen, and that's the part. That's what is that
there's a there's like a Japanese art where basically it's
you would probably know it. It's that you take a
bowl and you let it drop. It breaks into a
(07:35):
million pieces, and you solder it back in the exact
same form that it is, but with the gold or
with some kind of precious metal, and the basically it
becomes that much more valuable because it broke, so the
gold goes into the cracks. So I think that's kind
of like life. I love that. Wow, remember the term
(07:56):
for it. Maybe I'm not that much of a nerd
now that I can't remember. So to kids and fun
of you in school when he would go to the
music stuff I did. High school kids are so hard.
I was secret. No. I basically didn't talk about it
because I was afraid of getting made fun and I
didn't know how it was going to go either. I
mean it was like, is this I don't know this
is going to work out, so I don't put it
(08:17):
out there yet. And I was too busy doing other things.
I mean, I was in my school student council. Was cool. Yeah, Um,
so you're probably president guilty, yes, but I will say
my I'm gonna I'm gonna say that my my best
friend Ashley Graham. Shout out to Ashley, Um was the
one that didn't everything, although that would be interesting. That
(08:42):
was sweet, Um, I don't. I mean, I look back
at life, and I think how hard I was trying.
I was trying so hard, and I think this like
this era of my life, and even from Porch kind
of has the representation of what does it look like?
In my mom that was a total fragment sentence, Um,
what does it look like to try and not try
(09:03):
so hard? And that's what my mom said to me
a few years ago. She said, the thing with you, Joys,
you don't need to try harder, you need to try less.
And that really stuck with me because after my dad
passed away, after and all in the same era of
like having having a small child, my dad passing away
from cancer, and my um my duo um imploding in
(09:26):
part because I spoke up. It just it just leveled
everything for me, and I thought, you know, Venus was
kind of a representation of what it looks like for
me to exert. It was like I wanted to explore,
I wanted to push the boundaries. How can I do this?
What am I capable of? And I am really proud
of that record, But that record was such a sonic
departure from the Civil Wars that a lot of people
(09:46):
were like, what the hell is she doing? Which record
are you talking about? Venus was the solo album that
came after the last Civil Wars record, and that was
on Columbia Records, and a lot of people don't know
about it. Yeah, and that's okay. But it was almost
like I needed to cleanse my palette and be like, okay,
(10:08):
that was I'm capable of making that music. But what
does it look like to really love what I do
and do what I love? And and I just started.
I just went back to playing with the guitar, you know,
and singing and just telling a story. And that's how
Front Paid, Front Porch came about. And it just felt
(10:28):
so much more like me and so much less about
proving a point. Because I had somebody in a UM
at a record label, a very prominent person like high
up in the company at the time, UM tell me, well,
no one really wants to hear you unless you're standing
next to him. Man, they are. These are hitting on
so many points that I want to ask you, and
(10:49):
I'm starting like blah blah blah. No, I'm just so curious.
I mean, we'd obviously so you did start in Christian music,
and then you took a break, and then I did
music for TV film, which, okay, let talk a little
bit about that. Do you feel like when you do
things like that? Obviously the paychecks are great, Yes, they
can be. They can be or they used to be
(11:09):
more than they are now exactly, And then sometimes it
becomes this you know, this niche for people. But do
you did you, as a musician, a serious musician at
that point, feel like a sellout ever? Or did you
get any ship for that? It was it was a
form of function. It was a way for me to
create and provide for myself and my family. And um,
(11:36):
it didn't feel like selling out because I honestly, because
I'd been doing Christian music, it to me was a
really safe sort of lily pad leap into. It was
a little bit more in the background so I could
create that music. And I got I got shipped for
having transferred out of making like faith based musically. Oh yeah,
I mean, and that's okay, that's that's fine, it happens.
(11:57):
But um, are you still religious? I would say that
my spirituality has deepened and widened, That's what I would say,
and wide that's the Christian you know it about it? Yeah?
I think, I think, I think if we really get
down to it, there's a lot that we can all
agree on if we really got past some of the
(12:20):
picket fences that we put up some more spirituality. Yeah,
I do think I do very much feel like it's
important to have a true North, you know, um, and
to do no harm I think that's really important. Um.
But what were we talking about? So you were saying
that you got out of the Christian are the faith based? Yeah,
and that to do TV film yea, that's what you
(12:41):
were asking about. It didn't feel like it sell. It
felt like can I still do music if I don't
have these parameters set for me? So it actually worked
out really well. Like I wrote a bunch of things
that went on Gray's Anatomy, and you know, I got
back in the hate it. It was I loved the
Gray's Anatomy. We all um and uh. And then I
(13:01):
randomly wrote a single that became a single, a jingle
for Oscar Meyer. I read about that who did that
that the money for Deli Meat would become the seedbed
for financially funding independently what would become the Civil Wars
At the time, my husband and I like took that
(13:22):
money and we put it into the Civil Wars, and
and then it it was the little engine that could,
and we worked our asses off and I'm so grateful
that it did work until it didn't. And then, as
all things do, all there's a season for all those things.
And and now this is the season that I'm in
again of you know, making solo music and not afraid
(13:43):
to go back to the roots and and the sheer
simplicity of writing just with the guitar and a vocal.
And I did that when I was eighteen. I did
that when I was twenty three. I did that when
I was twenty seven. I did that, you know, and
I'm still doing that. Um. And I'm not afraid to.
Now what what do the Buddhists say, include and transcend?
(14:05):
Like to bring all this, I'm like on front Port,
You've got some spiritual language, but I'm going to turn
in it on its ear a little bit. It's like
a little bit of a ragran on some of it. Um.
And then I'm not afraid to go back to that
rootsy aspect of writing. Like when I wrote in the
Civil Wars, it was mostly just John Paul and I writing.
So the contribution that I put into that, I didn't.
(14:26):
I think I was afraid to own that at a
certain point in time. And I'm not afraid to do
that anymore because I am really proud of the music
that we made. But don't you think I mean because
you guys did meet at a writing with it a
conference or like a writing camp. Yeah, And for another artist,
do you have that thing where you especially in a partnership.
I personally struggle with this sometimes I think the other person,
(14:48):
even though I'm bringing the same thing to the table,
I think for some reason they know better or what
they're saying is right, and I start to question myself,
did you do that in that relationship? In Yes, that's
a woman thing too, I think a little bit. And
I think we've been cultured out I think there. I
(15:08):
remember someone saying at a certain point that men are
cultured out of their hearts and women are cultured out
of their bodies. And I wept actually when I heard that,
because it was it just hit me like a ton
of bricks, because well, I think we all have moments
where we go. Man, if I only just remember my
(15:28):
worth and my value totally, I would have responded so
differently in that moment. I would have had less regrets,
I would have maybe said that more clearly. Um, there's
this book have you read it by Um Clarissa sd S.
And she's a PhD. And it's called Women Who Run
with the Wolves And it is it's um all these
stories around from around the world that um and she
(15:52):
talks about the history of each of those stories and
how it correlates to women and what we've been cultured
out of and what we have within us at any
point in time if we need it to me, I'm like,
it should be required reading for And you have to
re listen to this podcast so I can remember, well,
(16:12):
I'm taking notes on the art on the artist that's
on your wall right now. But it's I think that
book in particular. I mean, I have a I have
a ten she's ten months old today. I have a
ten month old daughter right now, and and I think
to myself, I really want to make sure that I
ingest this, the wisdom of this and the wisdom from
my mom and and the wisdom that I'm getting, so
(16:34):
I can pass it down to her and hopefully she
can feel the shift within her to trust her instincts more.
What happened for you, like when you you said you
felt like you kind of have been sort of cultured
to sort of differ, and I was too. I totally
was too. There's lots of moments WHEREM like, well, surely
they must know more than me, and I go since
says who, Well, That's what I'm learning the older I
(16:56):
get is they just everyone's just trying to figure it
out all the time. None of us really know what
if anyone says they do, do you kind of I
sometimes question it now because I just know that's not true,
you know. I think it's like when you're growing up
and you look at your parents and you just think
they know what they're doing because they're your parents. They
don't have a clue. Well, they were just doing the
best they could do exactly. And I think that's what
(17:18):
I'm realizing is that's okay to wake up every day
and not have every answer. Like I just put so
much pressure on myself to know, and if I don't know,
then I'm just wrong or dumb or so you know,
Like I get those kind of messages in your head
like that's the that's the ticker tape that starts like
playing for you. And what I've noticed about a lot
of men is either they cover it better or they
(17:41):
don't go to that. They think if I don't know,
they'll figure it out, or they'll find out. But they
don't ever judge themselves. There's a shaming about it. We
need a dude didn't here to ask? We need a
dude didn't hear it? Ask what they what they think
about a friend? Later a friend? But okay, I want
to go back to what you said that person. I'm
(18:02):
I don't I don't know what I was about to say.
That man said to you. Oh yeah, but that person
said to you about you singing next to Can you
repeat what they said? No one wants to hear you
unless you're standing next to him. Now, did you respond,
I walked blocks in New York in the snow. Did
you believe it? Though? I think that's why I walked
(18:24):
blocks because a part of me knew that was totally bullshit,
and the other part of me thought, what if he's right.
It's like all your worst fears being set up. Who
would I mean, who wants to hear that? You basically
don't matter unless you're connected to someone else. What a
painful thing that is? And it's not true, but I didn't.
I didn't know how to respond at the time. I
(18:45):
remember saying I don't agree because I thought, if I
snap back, then that's not that's I don't even need
to entertain that. And if I snap back, then I'm
sort of, um, I'm re acting instead of responding, and
I wouldn't. I didn't even want to give that thought
(19:05):
any more power than it felt like. It felt like,
I felt like a punch to the stomach. And I
have to keep reminding myself that some people may think that,
and that's okay, But I'm not going to waste any
more time thinking about that. What can I do now,
and who can I be now? And what kind of
women can I be? Where I can make my kids proud,
(19:26):
where I can make my you know, I can show
my six and a half year old son, Miles, and
my my infant daughter. I can show them what does
it look like to be honest and real and show
up and make mistakes and own them and apologize and
try and try again and stay creative and stay curious
and kind if I can, because otherwise I would just
(19:49):
spend the rest of my life trying to prove everybody wrong.
And who wants to do that. That's a lot of
wasted energy. I think, what did you learn? What are
the differences between standing on stage was someone else and
standing on stage by yourself. If it doesn't work, you
can only blame yourself. But the other thing is is
that I I've had people ask me does it feel
(20:09):
so different now being a solo artist versus being in
a duo? And I say no, not really, because I
still bring what I bring and I love to collaborate.
That's uh, that's one of my sweet spots. I've always
done that, whether I was a solo artist, collaborating with
a producer or collaborating with a band leader. Um even now,
(20:30):
you know, when I was making this record, Kenneth Patton
Gale from a duo called the Milk Cart and Kids,
you know we were he knew the nature and the
importance of collaborating, and that was one of the reasons
why I wanted to work with him, was because he
knew how important right parte is. And and even on
the road with my band, you know, it was a
three piece, you know, upright bass and guitar and fiddle
(20:53):
slash mando, And I thought to myself, I'm I am
a solo artist, but this is I don't feel like
I'm boss lady. You know. I feel like we're all
rowing the boat together and and I know how to lead,
and I know how to do that in a way
that's hopefully kind and respectful, because that's how I want
to be treated. But I'm still collaborating. I'm still I'm
(21:15):
still linking norms and going I couldn't do this without
you guys. I wouldn't want to, So you know, it's
I'm learning. That's one of my strengths is working with
other people. And I don't have to feel weak or
less because of that. So when you guys, because obviously
you had some great success and talking about the Civil
(21:36):
Civil Wars, yes, and you guys were pretty much at
the height of what seemed like your career and you
just announced that the tour was canceled. You were breaking
up it was done. Um. I was listening to Bobby
interview on the Bobby Cast Bobby Bones. Yeah, I'm just
kidding that guy. But this was one of my favorite
things you said was you were talking about the bad
(21:58):
press that you got after that, and you said, when
everything you've been working for falls apart, and you're still standing.
You just realize it's going to be okay. So what
was that like? Can you talk me through that? Because
I imagine that if I'd been working so hard for
something and it's finally happening. I mean, you said you've
been doing music since you were seventeen, and then all
(22:19):
of a sudden it's happening, and then it's just not
and you're also being beat up for it and misunderstood
and misunderstood. What does that feel, the ability to defend
yourself frankly, Um, what does it feel like? Yeah? Total
annihil like ego annihilition, Okay, Um, it feels it feels
(22:39):
like when you walk into the grocery store and you
see somebody that you know, four weeks ago would have
been walking right up to you and chatting you up, um,
now glares at you and walks right past you like
they don't even know you. And and you go, you know,
this might be one of one of kind of a
(23:00):
version of my worst nightmare. But I'm still breathing, and
you really do get back to the basics of what
am I really grateful for. I'm grateful I get to
wake up in a bed, in a house that is warm.
And what am I grateful for? That my worth and
value is not determined on other people's opinions of me,
(23:20):
and and that I get to walk this out in
my own life and that's on me. And UM, I
don't know. You realize you take you take what you
do seriously, but you don't take yourself too seriously and
you go Okay. At a certain point, this will pass
in um, and people will people will be less vitriolic
about it. And I have compassion because if people don't
(23:43):
really know, then that all they have are their opinions
and their assumptions. And because it involves other people, I
don't feel like to publicly speak about that, uh would
do much good. Yeah, So I have to day with
that and that is hard some days, because um, it's
(24:05):
just hard. But I think to myself, it's about moving
forward and not and not looking back. And UM, you know,
I learned a lot. There's things I would have done differently,
there's things I wouldn't have done differently, and that's all
life is. I think. Because I was gonna ask you
if you would go back, would you do it all
(24:25):
all again? I don't know. I mean, you have it's
like if what's that movie Sliding Doors? You know, it's
like it's like, well, if I didn't do that, then
this wouldn't have happened, and then this would happened. So
I can say there are there are moments that I go, man,
I wish I would have ah remembered my backbone more.
(24:47):
But ultimately it's made me. It's brought me right here
sitting down with you. And would you have even realized
that if you hadn't gone through that, Probably not. I
think suffering can be a great teacher until it's not necessary.
So I don't know, what do you think? Like you
looking back at your life, if you if I asked
you the same question, what would you say? I love
that you turn interviews as I Well, when you were
(25:13):
initially just talking, I was thinking, there's a moment in
my life where I also realized, like that statement, I'm
a human being, not a human doing and um, that
was for me after a huge fall as well, and
just realizing like I can't really control things in this life.
I can only control how I act, how I treat people,
(25:33):
what I show up and do every day, um, and
knowing that that's not my worth. So once I realized that.
I think it's completely shifted the way that I respond
to anything in life. You know, I don't think that
I would go back and change it. Though, as painful
as all of that stuff has been, I don't think
that I could be this person because it was transformative.
(25:54):
It sounds like the same yeah saying, so it's worth it.
So when you did finally to the place where you
were like, I'm still standing, I'm still okay, what was
the next step? How did you pick back up and
do music again? Very slowly? Yeah, very very slowly. Um,
it's like falling off a horse, you know what I mean. Like,
so you get close to the animal again, You're like
(26:16):
your whole body memories like is you know what's going
to happen, and you can front your fears. You become
friends with your fears. And the great thing about Ready
music is that I get to kind of exercise the demons.
And I wrote eighty songs for Venus. I wrote eighties
songs and they actually made the album only what was it?
(26:40):
I met with a couple of extra bonus things. I
mean it was like twelve or fourteen, but um, but
with front Porch, I was very slow and steady on
that I kept going. I kept just the like just
the steady as she goes kind of model. Yeah, and
I was less. We moved. I moved to l A
after the Civil Wars ended. It was just like I can't,
(27:04):
I just got I just gotta get out of town.
So we had a place by the beach, and um,
I just took my son to the ocean and worked
on music when I could, and you know, randomly worked
on other projects with other people. And that was a
good thing for me to do at the time. Um.
And I was closer to my dad at that time
(27:25):
because he was in northern California really really sick, so
I could just like do work and then when Dad called,
I could pop up and just be with him while
he slowly kind of passed through the veil. But um, yeah,
I moved out of town. But you bring wherever you
go there you are okay yourself? Right, No, But like
(27:46):
I think that was once my dad passed away, I
was like, why am I in l A. I don't
really want to be here, like it's great, and it's
just the I was just like, schools aren't great. I
was starting to look at that for Miles you know,
and the community if it was harder to grow out there.
Everyone just hustle lean all the time, day and time.
So we got back to Nashville and I was like,
(28:07):
I'm home. And I think that really played a part
into Front Porch and UM just really really beginning to
settle back in and not settle for something, but to
settle back into um just like you said, the human
the being part versus the doing part. And and so
(28:27):
when I wrote this time around, I waited for the
people that I wanted to work with. It wasn't like, Okay,
who's available, how can I get this done? Like what
can I blah blah. I was like, no, I really
want to write with. And it was a really small
tribe of people. So I just waited until their calendars
opened up in mine worked in between you know, um,
dropping Miles off at school and you know, the regular
(28:48):
everyday errands of being a mom, and sat down and wrote,
what a blessing? Don't you think a lot of times
for me? I know, everyone's like, oh, your job is
so cool, But in any creative job or thing that
you make a job, it ends up becoming a business.
You know, you're chasing the money, or you're chasing a schedule,
or there's all these other demands. So what a cool
(29:10):
experience to get to wait, Yeah, and maybe how you
want to do it? Yeah, I mean I do feel
I do feel like that was a really big gift
and it helped me. It helped me just kind of
calmed down. It calmed my nerves, and I thought, you know,
if I wanted to make money, I probably wouldn't do music, right,
you know, But why do I do this? You know?
I do this because I love I love the nature
(29:33):
of making something that hopefully can connect with someone else
and that maybe someone else can feel a little less
alone because of that, and we can all remember how
connected we are. And it's like, to me, music is
like cooking. It's it's it's fun to cook for yourself,
but it's way more fun to cook for other people
and and invite them in and share that and if
they enjoy it and it nourishes them, then it's like
(29:55):
that just feels even better to me. So it was
it was sort of how do I want to cook?
What kind of meal do I want to cook? This time? Um?
And it and it just slowly came together and I
was writing about what was going on in my life,
going through hard times, coming through realizing what really matters
in life, um, and what really doesn't and what does
(30:16):
it look like to you know, fight for yourself and
fight for love and celebrate celebrate the high times and
acknowledge the low times and and not be afraid to
show up for both. I was going to ask that
how much of what you write as reflective of what's
happening in your life? Oh so much, but so much
(30:37):
also in the sense of it can be what was
happening in my life when I was having a conversation
with one of my good friends, you know, like Trouble
with Wanting is a song that is you know, we
can all, we can all relate to the feeling the
ache of desire um or the thought of like that
what if dot dot dot question mark kind of stuff. Um.
(30:57):
But that was from a conversation I had with one
of my really good friends about her on again off
again relationship for ten years. And then like a song
called Hotel St. Cecilia on the record, it was just
kind of I saw this elderly woman sitting alone at
a bar, and she wasn't like she looked very lovely
and put together. It wasn't like this sad state of affairs,
you know. But I just I just thought, I wonder
(31:18):
what her story is, and I've made one up and
wrote that and but a lot of it is directly autobiographical,
like a song called Preacher's Daughter of that every single
line is directly from my life because you grew up
the pastor's daughter. So um So it's all in there.
(31:38):
It's the the the the movie is in there, the
movie in my mind is in there, and the ordinary
everyday parts of my life are in there, like the
front porch you know that currently has a Howdy welcome
Matt on it, and you know a couple of Razor
scooters and a bike that's all banged up, and you know,
sidewalk chalk on it. And that's that's also in my
(32:00):
real life too. Yeah. I've always been so envious of
songwriters because it seems like such a therapeutic process. I'm like,
you guys don't have to pay for what we have
to pay. Oh no, no, I swear to you. I've
bought several therapists, like like apartments, um with the amount
of therapy um it is. It is good it's good therapy. Yeah,
(32:22):
that is good therapy. And then it also can be like,
if you're not careful, it can be like intense navel gazing.
Me it can just be like, this is what I've
gone through and I can write ten songs about it.
So it's like it could get really dark. Yeah, so
I think it's I tell my son all the time,
You've got to become friends with your with your feelings
so otherwise they'll come outsideways. So true. So it's like
(32:45):
learning to make friends with your feelings also allows allows
us to communicate more clearly and hopefully write better songs.
Feelings are just feelings, yeah, and they're important to acknowledge,
and they're important not to necessarily camp there for like decade.
It's at a time and life is hard. Like I'm
in a season right now that I never thought that
(33:06):
I would have to be in that I never wanted
to be in um and yet this is where I am. Yeah,
and I've got beautiful music in the midst of all
of this, and I have two amazing kids, and and
I think I'm going to be okay. That just made
me think of my favorite song on the album All
I Need I've been listening to that on repeats, and
(33:27):
that also reminds you that is kind of you coming
full circle because there's a lot of spirituality in that.
You know, such a beautiful, simple song, but it's not
simple to downplay. No, no, no, I'm like, I'm glad
it feels that statements are just like oh yeah, yeah.
Hopefully it reminds us of like the elemental aspects of
life exactly, you know, the basics that we need to remember. Um,
(33:49):
so we've talked about your kids a little bit, So
tell me you have two kids. I do. I do.
Old Miles will be seven very soon. Okay, he's so awesome.
Is that a eight? It is? Yeah. He's so full
of life and so full of curiosity, is so much energy.
I mean there's moments I'm like, I mean he wakes
(34:09):
up and it's just like ready to go. Yeah, he
just wakes up on a green light. That's just how
it goes, and you're like, mom, but he's just he
just came out such a light. He's just never lost
that twinkle in his eye. And he's so deeply empathic
as well, so he's got all the all that sort
(34:30):
of like classic you know, some might say boy energy.
I don't necessarily know if it's engendered or not, doesn't
need to be. But he's so very much in his
body yeah, and yet also so very much in his heart.
And he's such a he's just such a roud human being,
and he teaches me a lot, and and then this
wonderful bliss ball um Poppy, Poppy. I have a friend
(34:53):
with a kid named really a little girl. Yeah, so cute.
I love that name. I need to we named her.
We named her Poppy because she her e t a.
When we found out we were pregnant was my late
dad's birthday, and I just thought that's a little full
circle right there. And the grandkids all call them Poppy.
(35:14):
What a cool story. So she was born, she had
her own birthday, which I like. She was born one
day before my dad's birthday, and I like to think
he was cheering her on. So we named her Poppy.
I love that. So how do you balance this career
because obviously you know road life, traveling, you're following your dreams,
(35:35):
but you have these two kids at home. What do
you what is that like? I mean, my dreams, my
dreams get um folded into the deep and absolute privilege
of parenting like that everything changes, Everything changes when you
have a baby. What do you mean tell me more? Well,
(35:55):
you never realized how much time you had on your
hands until you had a That's what everyone told you.
And then you have to And I'm so grateful for it.
But every all your priorities shift, you know, it doesn't.
It's not just about like what can I accomplish? What
can I do now? It's like, how do I do
this in a way where I still my kids know
that I'm there for them all the time. How do
(36:17):
I do this in a way that provides for them?
And um, and I I think I was. I became
less precious And I mean that in a good way
about the music that I make. It was more of
like I just sat on a stool pregnant and sick,
a f recording front porch. I was early pregnant, and
I was and I don't have like that unicorns and
(36:38):
rainbows pregnancies. Like I'm like, what is that? Like you know,
like um, the Duchess of you know, like Kate, you know,
she had like she was sick like twenty four hours
for six or seven months, like all the way through
I was that way and so but I sat down
in a studio and I was like, this is time
to create because it I knew it was going to
(37:01):
keep me really really um honest and how I made
what I made, and it did. I think you can
hear that on the on front porch. You can hear that.
It's there's no striving. I'm literally just sitting down singing
and um. And you know, parenting in general makes you go, Okay,
what really needs to happen versus what do I just
(37:22):
want to happen? And somehow I think it all works
together in a and its attention. I don't when people
say how do you balance it? And like, ain't no
such thing like in this regard, Um, I'm constantly moving,
I'm constantly altering. I'm constantly shifting, like how do I
take care of myself so that I can take really
(37:43):
good care to paids? And and I don't do I
don't do that. I don't I probably don't do that
well a lot. But at least I'm able to say
it and I thought it, yeah, and and and say,
this isn't about doing this perfectly again getting to that
whole thing. Um, it's about how can I do this
(38:03):
with bravery and kindness and and show up for the
people that I love. Um, I'll let you know if
I figure it out, or or you let me know,
and then you can write a book and make a
bazillion dollars and then Oprah will interview you, and then
I will like buy takes to your seminars and you
know it'll be It'll be a whole thing, the whole
(38:25):
Burne Brown thing. Oh my god, I'm speaking my language.
Who I really want to be friends with? Same her
and Oprah would be I mean that people talk about
who they would want to meet, and like, those are
my people. Yea. I would like to be adopted by
Michelle Obama and Oprah and Burnet Brown. And if there's
so many names, who else? Um, I love Glenn and Doyle,
(38:48):
I mean all of those women. Anybody that's been on
Oprah Super Souls today basically so good. Oh my word.
This guy named Richard Roor was just um just talking
with Oprah, and I love Richard Or has been a
part of kind of what changed a bit of my
sort of walk in regards to like what I believe
(39:09):
it was. I think we go through this. I don't
know anybody who grew up in a conservative household, the
temptation might be to just completely deconstruct and just leave
it in a thousand pieces. And I was like that
for a long time. But um, this guy named Richard Ror,
He's a Franciscan monk who um has a center in
New Mexico called the c a C. The Center for
(39:30):
Action and Contemplation, And he wrote this book called Everything
Belongs and it was like my first step back into like, ah, wait,
maybe I don't need to throw it all out and
uh it was a pretty cool, pretty cool path. And
then he got interviewed by Oprah. I'm like, see, see
what you're doing something right? You know? That is like
(39:52):
literal goals, totally totally. Um. That is interesting though about
spirituality because I feel the same way. It's like you, Yeah,
I grew up in a really Christian conservative home and
I don't necessarily practice the same beliefs. But I don't
think it's it never leaves you. It might. For me.
It's just expanded a lot and life has just I
(40:14):
don't know, I just see everything with a bigger perspective
now than I used to. Yeah, I just think there's
so many walls. Why are there so many walls? Like,
if if we could take those walls down, I think
we really get back to the basics, which I think
most teachers in the world. That's what everyone's trying to
remind us of, you know, but to each their own
(40:35):
front porches out a may what's your favorite What was
your favorite part of recording that album? Oh? Man, I
just never had so much fun recording in the studio.
And that's saying a lot, because, like I mentioned, I
was really really dogsick, but and I've been in studios
for many, many years. But working with Kenneth as a
(40:56):
co producer UM was really special. And then the way
in which we went about it just felt really really good.
I Mean, Kenneth was like, Okay, I said, I want
to record this record UM in the most unadulterated way possible,
meaning like I don't want overdubs, So there's no overdubs
on the record. It's literally just like front to back performances.
(41:20):
And UM, I've always said, if you can't do it
in one take, you probably shouldn't try and do it live. Wow. Yeah,
that's a great that's just for me. That's just how
I feel about me and and so the Civil Wars
was that way and UM and then also and then
also recording this was that way too. So there was
just so much ease involved and a lot of laughter.
(41:42):
And Kenneth, you know, really listened when I when I
said this is what I want to do and how
and the players. I didn't know who the players were
going to be, but Kenneth heard me when I said,
everybody that we bring in, I just need them to
be empathic listeners because I don't want them to come
in and just like slap their stuff on it, like
this is how I play, This is what I do.
(42:02):
Everybody that came in, we really set the tone of
we want this to be like we're cooking together, you know.
Then and and let's add what we can, but less
is more so how do we do this? And playing
simply is actually really quite hard to do. Um. But
the amazing talent on the record, you know, he speaks
(42:24):
for itself. You know, got Russ Paul and Scott mulbile
Hill and Caitlyn Canty on back, some background vocals and um,
you know John Melander on fiddle and UM and Anthony
de Costa on guitar and are these all Nashville people,
not all, but they are now. But everyone you know,
came from a different part of the country and live
here now. But it was to Kenneth's credit. Kenneth was saying,
(42:49):
I really think you and Anthony the guitar player, you
guys should just rehearse for two, like two months, and
we did. He Anthony just came to my house and
we rehearsed for two months straight, green velvet couches in
my living room and Kenneth would sit there and we'd
play it through and we'd work out harmonies and so
that when we got in the studio, it was just
like press record and let's go. Yeah, I read was
(43:11):
it five days? Yeah? Fifteen songs and five days. It
was just so easy. It was so easy. It was crazy,
but it was crazy easy with that, and I'd never
experienced it to that degree. It was. I just felt
like there was some really special magic by way of
the hard work leading up to it. Yeah, you know, yeah,
(43:32):
it was. It really was just so joyful in there.
It just felt really the ease was there. It felt
like sitting on a front porch with friends and um,
and that was the whole impetus for starting the record.
You know, when I sat down with songwriters, I said,
you know, what's really coming to me is if I
can't play it on a front porch, it's probably not
for me. And and I remember Liz Rose who helped
(43:54):
me write and Emily Shackleton helped me right front porch.
She was like, well, have you written a song with
that title yet? I was like no. She's like, well,
don't you think we should do that? Yes, it was
a snake it would a bit ye happy did um.
So the album is out. You guys should totally check
(44:16):
it out. I was gonna say, it's funny that you
keep comparing the cooking stuffing because I've been cooking in
my house listening to the Yes. Yes, it's the perfect
like background music for home to me because it's so calming.
I don't know, I just have I've felt the last
three days I've been listening and it's it's definitely a
very calming, contemplative album, like I hear something different every time.
(44:39):
And the lyrics, yeah, which has been really exciting. Okay,
what have your greatest career moments been that you would say?
I know that's like the hardest thing, but I'm curious
because I feel like you've got You've covered so many basses.
She give me like top three. Meeting Paul McCartney and
saying he was a fan. He said he was a face.
(45:02):
I wanted to die. I died. That It's it's down
from there, you know what I'm saying, Like, um, yeah,
that that one was good. Getting matching tattoos with Adele.
Can you tell that story? Yeah? We we went the
Civil Wars. She discovered the music of the Civil Wars
(45:23):
and asked us to come on the road with her,
which is God. We became fast friends on the road,
and I got to witness what it looks like to
go from being somewhat well known to like the sky
rocket like stratospheric fame, and just to watch her stay
(45:45):
the same and and to just bear witness to the
human aspect of all of that too. And uh, we
but we were I was not even close to having
any kids at that point, so we were. I was ps,
do not try and keep up drinking with Adele. Yeah
(46:07):
it was, but we we joke now that like we don't.
We were like we're moms now, we can't even we
can't do that. Yeah, I know, I'm like, oh, that
one really hit me. I'm gonna be up at six
and that one's gonna hurt the half glass of wine
that I had. But um, but I think getting to
go on the road with her, it was really just
a special thing and getting to know her and um,
(46:30):
what's the tattoo. The tattoo is three dots. It's an ellipsus,
which just means to be continued, and it's on our
wrists and um. We finished the tour that leg of
the tour. We finished that leg of the tour and
she um had arranged for a tattoo artist on the bus,
so we went on the bus after our. At the
(46:50):
end of tour, um she had ironically given me a
bottle of gin, which I had gotten terribly, terribly sick
from drinking. Um, so that was a little giggle and
and we got we it was are both of our
first tattoos. And now we kind of we think that
it's I don't know. I haven't so I haven't spoken
to her in a little bit. But but I looked
(47:12):
down and I think to myself, that's right. Everything is
to be continued. You keep you keep an open mind
about what's about to happen. You know, you never know
how life is going to move, but you just keep
remembering there's always more. There's always more to be continued,
like our friendship, and and then we both wound up
having like getting pregnant around the same time, just totally randomly.
(47:33):
So we've joked at times that it's, you know, it's
like us two and our son's connected, you guys. But
and then now I don't know if I need a
out a fourth stop, but then that wouldn't work out
for Poppy, but it wouldn't be an ellipsus, so that
one and then top three. I think it's hard. It's
like I go back and forth between like really small
moments of stepping out on stage and and just that
(47:56):
moment that happens of feeling this deep cycle circle of
gratitude that I feel like, I feel like it's like no,
thank you for being here, and then it's like this
moment of like feeling that thank you and it's like
no thank you, and it's like thank you. That to me,
that's a really small but but really impacting thing for me.
(48:17):
Every time that I don't say you feel that every
show I do, And some days I'm really tired, or
some days with throat hurts, or you're pregnant. Yeah, some
days I'm pregnant, and some days, my you know, I'm
so exhausted, I don't know how I'm going to hit
that high note for that one song. And um, but
it's like sitting down in a living room, you know,
and just being like, I'm so glad you're here, and
(48:38):
and if and if you can keep that conversation going
and just be who you are, it's not putting on
a show. I mean, I do like putting on a show,
but but I think the shows I love going to
the most of the shows where I feel like people
really bring themselves. They bring the drama and they bring
themselves and and like that to me is a highlight
to the career that hopefully I can keep that feeling
(49:01):
of gratitude going always. I mean, like Dolly Parton still
has so much gratitude for her career, like she's a
queen to me forever in a day. And I think
of Emmy Lou Harris, who was never afraid to branch
out and try new things and it is still making
music decades decades later. Like those those aren't even personal
(49:21):
highlights for me. But I look at that and I go, No,
that's a highlight I want to aspire to. What about you?
Oh God, greatest career moments? I mean, I think there's
been people I've gotten to meets or just even be around,
like Emmy, Lou Harris and all of those things that
have been great for me. But I think lately the
thing that I would say that that's kind of hitting
(49:43):
me the most is with gratitude. Is just even though
I don't know what I'm doing with a lot of
the stuff I'm doing, the opportunities keep presenting themselves, you
know what I'm saying, Where it's just like one foot
in front of the other and something is opening up,
and I just know I'm eactly where I'm supposed to be.
This is Kelly Henderson and you've been listening to the
(50:04):
Velvet Edge podcast. I truly believe that every one of
us has a little velvet and a little edge, So
it's so important to remember that to be strong, you
must be soft too. Thank you so much for sharing
in those stories with me. You can follow Velvet's Edge
on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, as well as velvet's Edge
dot com. If you have it yet, Go to Apple
(50:25):
Podcast and subscribe, Rate and review this podcast. Join me
every Wednesday for more conversations on lifestyle, beauty, and relationships.
My thanks to Joy Williams. Her album front Port is
out everywhere now. Thanks for listening.
This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the
Velvet Edge podcast. I will be back with an all
new podcast next week, but I wanted to share one
of my all time favorite podcast with singer songwriter Joy Williams.
Most of you probably remember Joy from the hit duo
The Civil Wars. She opened up about the rocky road
that band took and why they ultimately had to dissolve
the relationship. Joy is now out on her own and
(00:22):
her music is amazingly calming and beautiful. But even more
than simply music, I learned so many inspiring lessons from
hearing Joy's journey of life, triumphs and defeats. She's an
amazing soul and an instant friend, and I can't wait
for you guys to hear all the wisdom she dropped
on this podcast. Here's our conversation. I'm here with Joy Williams.
(00:43):
I feel like we're fast friends. We just literally sat
down and it was we just off to the races.
We went in the interior design, we covered a lot
of things. You know, Andrew glasses right now today are
matching the wall that now I'm asking about pay colors
about So I'm feeling very on brand today. Okay, so
(01:05):
most people probably do know you from the Civil Wars,
wouldn't you say, oh yeah, or that girl from the
Civil Wars girl? Right? How did that go with? Like
do people huge career before and now after? Well, it's
an interesting thing that a lot of people don't know
that I started in faith based music when I was seventeen. Yeah,
so most people do know me from you know, when
(01:26):
I was in my mid to late twenties in you know,
in this Americana folk duo. But before I was singing
songs that were like super pop and like very churchy um.
And I was raised in a pretty conservative way growing up.
I grew up in northern California most of my life,
but which was an odd combo to grow up in
Santa Cruz County and and then grew up in a
(01:46):
really conservative household. Yeah, I do not associate the two. No,
neither do I and I grew up in it. But
somehow I think it kind of it played into everything
else that's happened, you know, moving forward. It brought like
this openness and this curiosity city about you know, what
does life look like in the juxtaposition of like, how
all of these things worked together to form us into
(02:07):
who we are. Um. But I left doing that kind
of music when I was twenty three. I just felt
like I was feeling really hemmed in and my world
view was shifting and deepening in a different way and um,
and I didn't know what I was going to do.
I mean, I sat on my couch for a good
solid several months and it's like what I started at seventeen,
(02:28):
So yeah, I mean that is similar graduating high school. Yeah,
and I did, but back and forth, like flying recording
my album my senior year and um, and then just
like trying to get to volleyball practice on time. So
it was like an interesting way to grow. But once
I moved to Nashville on my own at eighteen, I
had no idea what lay ahead. So it was lots
(02:50):
of trial and error and I was on the road
like two fifty days my first year, eighteen bus full
of bros. Let me just say I don't recommend and
that totally. I mean, you learn really really quickly how
to hold your ground and um and stay with yourself
and it was really fun. Some of it was really great,
(03:10):
but by the time I got to the Civil Wars,
you know, I'd already been in the industry several years,
you know, almost almost a decade, and so it was
funny when people would say that it's like it was
an overnight success, you know, and it's like I took
some time, you know. It's like small hinges on a
really large door. I'd spent a lot of time being
(03:32):
on the road meeting people, learning how to write songs
and craft those and and it was so good. It
was such a great learning experience for me personally and professionally.
It was really painful in some ways too, But I, UM,
I've learned the importance of UM staying with myself and
(03:54):
what happens when I don't, and and how important it
is to trust my instincts and UM and to not
be afraid to speak up when that needs to happen.
And I think we as women, women and men. I
shouldn't just say women, but I think women and men somehow,
at different points in time, we get cultured to think
that we can't speak up when we need to, when
(04:16):
we when we really ought to. And so I learned
that kind of the hard way. But I will say
that I got to do like bucket, Like like bucket
list experiences, you know, like meeting Paul McCartney and like
hanging out. I mean, the list could go on and
on and on about the things that I'd always hoped
to do in my career, working my ass off to
(04:39):
get to that spot and finally experiencing that was really awesome.
And then I describe it as a little bit like
seeing the backside of Disney World, that it's really exciting.
And then you turn around and you go, Okay, there's
a lot more to life than just this as well.
You work really really hard to get to a certain
place and then you see it and you go, oh wait,
(05:00):
there's more and not more stuff or like more accolades
to get, but it means there's more in life to
to look at what really matters to you and why
and um and that taught me. That era taught me
that in a really stark way. Wow, that's a huge
part of the owning yourself. I think it's used. But
if you started at seventeen, didn't don't you feel like
you had to learn that pretty fast? Jeez? I mean yeah,
(05:22):
And what a weird way to like learn about yourself
while people clap for you every night? Right? That can
really tweak with your brain. And I don't I don't
say that as like why why. I mean, that's not
like a crime or river. Um. It just was what
it was. It was how I how I grew up.
But it was really good that when I left doing
(05:43):
music in that way at that age that I had
a lot of time. I mean, I didn't know what
I was going to do. I hadn't finished college. I
didn't even go I mean I graduated validictorian from my
high school and didn't go to college because I already
had this career. How did you graduate valedictorian? You're like
going back and forth music. I am a nerd, really smart.
I am a nerd. I am a nerd. I don't
(06:06):
know if I don't know, if I I don't know,
I don't know what makes someone smart or not. But
I but I didn't. I was a kid that was like,
let me see if I can do that, let me
see if I can do that, let me try that.
I think I can do that. And at the time,
I was like that kid that just really always wanted
the gold star. Yeah, And I think I think some
of that was helpful and some of that wasn't you know,
I laughed that I've been a recovering perfectionist. Same, yeah,
(06:30):
I can tell I can't. Well, it takes one to
no one. It takes one to no one, I know.
But but also it sitting down with you, I can
tell you're very kind, and I can also tell you're
probably really hard on yourself exactly, so you're very empathetic.
I am you are too, so you feel it, yeah,
(06:52):
I do, and them. And that's why I would probably
be fun if you and I had a cocktail afterwards,
because we'd probably it's a little earlier day, but not now.
But yeah, I mean, I think it's life finds a
way to handy your own ass and to remind you
and to remind you that it's not about doing things perfectly.
It's about showing up to the best of your ability
(07:14):
with your heart and your and your integrity intact, and
that will get challenged as we grow, you know, and
mistakes happen, and that's the part. That's what is that
there's a there's like a Japanese art where basically it's
you would probably know it. It's that you take a
bowl and you let it drop. It breaks into a
(07:35):
million pieces, and you solder it back in the exact
same form that it is, but with the gold or
with some kind of precious metal, and the basically it
becomes that much more valuable because it broke, so the
gold goes into the cracks. So I think that's kind
of like life. I love that. Wow, remember the term
(07:56):
for it. Maybe I'm not that much of a nerd
now that I can't remember. So to kids and fun
of you in school when he would go to the
music stuff I did. High school kids are so hard.
I was secret. No. I basically didn't talk about it
because I was afraid of getting made fun and I
didn't know how it was going to go either. I
mean it was like, is this I don't know this
is going to work out, so I don't put it
(08:17):
out there yet. And I was too busy doing other things.
I mean, I was in my school student council. Was cool. Yeah, Um,
so you're probably president guilty, yes, but I will say
my I'm gonna I'm gonna say that my my best
friend Ashley Graham. Shout out to Ashley, Um was the
one that didn't everything, although that would be interesting. That
(08:42):
was sweet, Um, I don't. I mean, I look back
at life, and I think how hard I was trying.
I was trying so hard, and I think this like
this era of my life, and even from Porch kind
of has the representation of what does it look like?
In my mom that was a total fragment sentence, Um,
what does it look like to try and not try
(09:03):
so hard? And that's what my mom said to me
a few years ago. She said, the thing with you, Joys,
you don't need to try harder, you need to try less.
And that really stuck with me because after my dad
passed away, after and all in the same era of
like having having a small child, my dad passing away
from cancer, and my um my duo um imploding in
(09:26):
part because I spoke up. It just it just leveled
everything for me, and I thought, you know, Venus was
kind of a representation of what it looks like for
me to exert. It was like I wanted to explore,
I wanted to push the boundaries. How can I do this?
What am I capable of? And I am really proud
of that record, But that record was such a sonic
departure from the Civil Wars that a lot of people
(09:46):
were like, what the hell is she doing? Which record
are you talking about? Venus was the solo album that
came after the last Civil Wars record, and that was
on Columbia Records, and a lot of people don't know
about it. Yeah, and that's okay. But it was almost
like I needed to cleanse my palette and be like, okay,
(10:08):
that was I'm capable of making that music. But what
does it look like to really love what I do
and do what I love? And and I just started.
I just went back to playing with the guitar, you know,
and singing and just telling a story. And that's how
Front Paid, Front Porch came about. And it just felt
(10:28):
so much more like me and so much less about
proving a point. Because I had somebody in a UM
at a record label, a very prominent person like high
up in the company at the time, UM tell me, well,
no one really wants to hear you unless you're standing
next to him. Man, they are. These are hitting on
so many points that I want to ask you, and
(10:49):
I'm starting like blah blah blah. No, I'm just so curious.
I mean, we'd obviously so you did start in Christian music,
and then you took a break, and then I did
music for TV film, which, okay, let talk a little
bit about that. Do you feel like when you do
things like that? Obviously the paychecks are great, Yes, they
can be. They can be or they used to be
(11:09):
more than they are now exactly, And then sometimes it
becomes this you know, this niche for people. But do
you did you, as a musician, a serious musician at
that point, feel like a sellout ever? Or did you
get any ship for that? It was it was a
form of function. It was a way for me to
create and provide for myself and my family. And um,
(11:36):
it didn't feel like selling out because I honestly, because
I'd been doing Christian music, it to me was a
really safe sort of lily pad leap into. It was
a little bit more in the background so I could
create that music. And I got I got shipped for
having transferred out of making like faith based musically. Oh yeah,
I mean, and that's okay, that's that's fine, it happens.
(11:57):
But um, are you still religious? I would say that
my spirituality has deepened and widened, That's what I would say,
and wide that's the Christian you know it about it? Yeah?
I think, I think, I think if we really get
down to it, there's a lot that we can all
agree on if we really got past some of the
(12:20):
picket fences that we put up some more spirituality. Yeah,
I do think I do very much feel like it's
important to have a true North, you know, um, and
to do no harm I think that's really important. Um.
But what were we talking about? So you were saying
that you got out of the Christian are the faith based? Yeah,
and that to do TV film yea, that's what you
(12:41):
were asking about. It didn't feel like it sell. It
felt like can I still do music if I don't
have these parameters set for me? So it actually worked
out really well. Like I wrote a bunch of things
that went on Gray's Anatomy, and you know, I got
back in the hate it. It was I loved the
Gray's Anatomy. We all um and uh. And then I
(13:01):
randomly wrote a single that became a single, a jingle
for Oscar Meyer. I read about that who did that
that the money for Deli Meat would become the seedbed
for financially funding independently what would become the Civil Wars
At the time, my husband and I like took that
(13:22):
money and we put it into the Civil Wars, and
and then it it was the little engine that could,
and we worked our asses off and I'm so grateful
that it did work until it didn't. And then, as
all things do, all there's a season for all those things.
And and now this is the season that I'm in
again of you know, making solo music and not afraid
(13:43):
to go back to the roots and and the sheer
simplicity of writing just with the guitar and a vocal.
And I did that when I was eighteen. I did
that when I was twenty three. I did that when
I was twenty seven. I did that, you know, and
I'm still doing that. Um. And I'm not afraid to.
Now what what do the Buddhists say, include and transcend?
(14:05):
Like to bring all this, I'm like on front Port,
You've got some spiritual language, but I'm going to turn
in it on its ear a little bit. It's like
a little bit of a ragran on some of it. Um.
And then I'm not afraid to go back to that
rootsy aspect of writing. Like when I wrote in the
Civil Wars, it was mostly just John Paul and I writing.
So the contribution that I put into that, I didn't.
(14:26):
I think I was afraid to own that at a
certain point in time. And I'm not afraid to do
that anymore because I am really proud of the music
that we made. But don't you think I mean because
you guys did meet at a writing with it a
conference or like a writing camp. Yeah, And for another artist,
do you have that thing where you especially in a partnership.
I personally struggle with this sometimes I think the other person,
(14:48):
even though I'm bringing the same thing to the table,
I think for some reason they know better or what
they're saying is right, and I start to question myself,
did you do that in that relationship? In Yes, that's
a woman thing too, I think a little bit. And
I think we've been cultured out I think there. I
(15:08):
remember someone saying at a certain point that men are
cultured out of their hearts and women are cultured out
of their bodies. And I wept actually when I heard that,
because it was it just hit me like a ton
of bricks, because well, I think we all have moments
where we go. Man, if I only just remember my
(15:28):
worth and my value totally, I would have responded so
differently in that moment. I would have had less regrets,
I would have maybe said that more clearly. Um, there's
this book have you read it by Um Clarissa sd S.
And she's a PhD. And it's called Women Who Run
with the Wolves And it is it's um all these
stories around from around the world that um and she
(15:52):
talks about the history of each of those stories and
how it correlates to women and what we've been cultured
out of and what we have within us at any
point in time if we need it to me, I'm like,
it should be required reading for And you have to
re listen to this podcast so I can remember, well,
(16:12):
I'm taking notes on the art on the artist that's
on your wall right now. But it's I think that
book in particular. I mean, I have a I have
a ten she's ten months old today. I have a
ten month old daughter right now, and and I think
to myself, I really want to make sure that I
ingest this, the wisdom of this and the wisdom from
my mom and and the wisdom that I'm getting, so
(16:34):
I can pass it down to her and hopefully she
can feel the shift within her to trust her instincts more.
What happened for you, like when you you said you
felt like you kind of have been sort of cultured
to sort of differ, and I was too. I totally
was too. There's lots of moments WHEREM like, well, surely
they must know more than me, and I go since
says who, Well, That's what I'm learning the older I
(16:56):
get is they just everyone's just trying to figure it
out all the time. None of us really know what
if anyone says they do, do you kind of I
sometimes question it now because I just know that's not true,
you know. I think it's like when you're growing up
and you look at your parents and you just think
they know what they're doing because they're your parents. They
don't have a clue. Well, they were just doing the
best they could do exactly. And I think that's what
(17:18):
I'm realizing is that's okay to wake up every day
and not have every answer. Like I just put so
much pressure on myself to know, and if I don't know,
then I'm just wrong or dumb or so you know,
Like I get those kind of messages in your head
like that's the that's the ticker tape that starts like
playing for you. And what I've noticed about a lot
of men is either they cover it better or they
(17:41):
don't go to that. They think if I don't know,
they'll figure it out, or they'll find out. But they
don't ever judge themselves. There's a shaming about it. We
need a dude didn't here to ask? We need a
dude didn't hear it? Ask what they what they think
about a friend? Later a friend? But okay, I want
to go back to what you said that person. I'm
(18:02):
I don't I don't know what I was about to say.
That man said to you. Oh yeah, but that person
said to you about you singing next to Can you
repeat what they said? No one wants to hear you
unless you're standing next to him. Now, did you respond,
I walked blocks in New York in the snow. Did
you believe it? Though? I think that's why I walked
(18:24):
blocks because a part of me knew that was totally bullshit,
and the other part of me thought, what if he's right.
It's like all your worst fears being set up. Who
would I mean, who wants to hear that? You basically
don't matter unless you're connected to someone else. What a
painful thing that is? And it's not true, but I didn't.
I didn't know how to respond at the time. I
(18:45):
remember saying I don't agree because I thought, if I
snap back, then that's not that's I don't even need
to entertain that. And if I snap back, then I'm
sort of, um, I'm re acting instead of responding, and
I wouldn't. I didn't even want to give that thought
(19:05):
any more power than it felt like. It felt like,
I felt like a punch to the stomach. And I
have to keep reminding myself that some people may think that,
and that's okay, But I'm not going to waste any
more time thinking about that. What can I do now,
and who can I be now? And what kind of
women can I be? Where I can make my kids proud,
(19:26):
where I can make my you know, I can show
my six and a half year old son, Miles, and
my my infant daughter. I can show them what does
it look like to be honest and real and show
up and make mistakes and own them and apologize and
try and try again and stay creative and stay curious
and kind if I can, because otherwise I would just
(19:49):
spend the rest of my life trying to prove everybody wrong.
And who wants to do that. That's a lot of
wasted energy. I think, what did you learn? What are
the differences between standing on stage was someone else and
standing on stage by yourself. If it doesn't work, you
can only blame yourself. But the other thing is is
that I I've had people ask me does it feel
(20:09):
so different now being a solo artist versus being in
a duo? And I say no, not really, because I
still bring what I bring and I love to collaborate.
That's uh, that's one of my sweet spots. I've always
done that, whether I was a solo artist, collaborating with
a producer or collaborating with a band leader. Um even now,
(20:30):
you know, when I was making this record, Kenneth Patton
Gale from a duo called the Milk Cart and Kids,
you know we were he knew the nature and the
importance of collaborating, and that was one of the reasons
why I wanted to work with him, was because he
knew how important right parte is. And and even on
the road with my band, you know, it was a
three piece, you know, upright bass and guitar and fiddle
(20:53):
slash mando, And I thought to myself, I'm I am
a solo artist, but this is I don't feel like
I'm boss lady. You know. I feel like we're all
rowing the boat together and and I know how to lead,
and I know how to do that in a way
that's hopefully kind and respectful, because that's how I want
to be treated. But I'm still collaborating. I'm still I'm
(21:15):
still linking norms and going I couldn't do this without
you guys. I wouldn't want to, So you know, it's
I'm learning. That's one of my strengths is working with
other people. And I don't have to feel weak or
less because of that. So when you guys, because obviously
you had some great success and talking about the Civil
(21:36):
Civil Wars, yes, and you guys were pretty much at
the height of what seemed like your career and you
just announced that the tour was canceled. You were breaking
up it was done. Um. I was listening to Bobby
interview on the Bobby Cast Bobby Bones. Yeah, I'm just
kidding that guy. But this was one of my favorite
things you said was you were talking about the bad
(21:58):
press that you got after that, and you said, when
everything you've been working for falls apart, and you're still standing.
You just realize it's going to be okay. So what
was that like? Can you talk me through that? Because
I imagine that if I'd been working so hard for
something and it's finally happening. I mean, you said you've
been doing music since you were seventeen, and then all
(22:19):
of a sudden it's happening, and then it's just not
and you're also being beat up for it and misunderstood
and misunderstood. What does that feel, the ability to defend
yourself frankly, Um, what does it feel like? Yeah? Total
annihil like ego annihilition, Okay, Um, it feels it feels
(22:39):
like when you walk into the grocery store and you
see somebody that you know, four weeks ago would have
been walking right up to you and chatting you up, um,
now glares at you and walks right past you like
they don't even know you. And and you go, you know,
this might be one of one of kind of a
(23:00):
version of my worst nightmare. But I'm still breathing, and
you really do get back to the basics of what
am I really grateful for. I'm grateful I get to
wake up in a bed, in a house that is warm.
And what am I grateful for? That my worth and
value is not determined on other people's opinions of me,
(23:20):
and and that I get to walk this out in
my own life and that's on me. And UM, I
don't know. You realize you take you take what you
do seriously, but you don't take yourself too seriously and
you go Okay. At a certain point, this will pass
in um, and people will people will be less vitriolic
about it. And I have compassion because if people don't
(23:43):
really know, then that all they have are their opinions
and their assumptions. And because it involves other people, I
don't feel like to publicly speak about that, uh would
do much good. Yeah, So I have to day with
that and that is hard some days, because um, it's
(24:05):
just hard. But I think to myself, it's about moving
forward and not and not looking back. And UM, you know,
I learned a lot. There's things I would have done differently,
there's things I wouldn't have done differently, and that's all
life is. I think. Because I was gonna ask you
if you would go back, would you do it all
(24:25):
all again? I don't know. I mean, you have it's
like if what's that movie Sliding Doors? You know, it's
like it's like, well, if I didn't do that, then
this wouldn't have happened, and then this would happened. So
I can say there are there are moments that I go, man,
I wish I would have ah remembered my backbone more.
(24:47):
But ultimately it's made me. It's brought me right here
sitting down with you. And would you have even realized
that if you hadn't gone through that, Probably not. I
think suffering can be a great teacher until it's not necessary.
So I don't know, what do you think? Like you
looking back at your life, if you if I asked
you the same question, what would you say? I love
that you turn interviews as I Well, when you were
(25:13):
initially just talking, I was thinking, there's a moment in
my life where I also realized, like that statement, I'm
a human being, not a human doing and um, that
was for me after a huge fall as well, and
just realizing like I can't really control things in this life.
I can only control how I act, how I treat people,
(25:33):
what I show up and do every day, um, and
knowing that that's not my worth. So once I realized that.
I think it's completely shifted the way that I respond
to anything in life. You know, I don't think that
I would go back and change it. Though, as painful
as all of that stuff has been, I don't think
that I could be this person because it was transformative.
(25:54):
It sounds like the same yeah saying, so it's worth it.
So when you did finally to the place where you
were like, I'm still standing, I'm still okay, what was
the next step? How did you pick back up and
do music again? Very slowly? Yeah, very very slowly. Um,
it's like falling off a horse, you know what I mean. Like,
so you get close to the animal again, You're like
(26:16):
your whole body memories like is you know what's going
to happen, and you can front your fears. You become
friends with your fears. And the great thing about Ready
music is that I get to kind of exercise the demons.
And I wrote eighty songs for Venus. I wrote eighties
songs and they actually made the album only what was it?
(26:40):
I met with a couple of extra bonus things. I
mean it was like twelve or fourteen, but um, but
with front Porch, I was very slow and steady on
that I kept going. I kept just the like just
the steady as she goes kind of model. Yeah, and
I was less. We moved. I moved to l A
after the Civil Wars ended. It was just like I can't,
(27:04):
I just got I just gotta get out of town.
So we had a place by the beach, and um,
I just took my son to the ocean and worked
on music when I could, and you know, randomly worked
on other projects with other people. And that was a
good thing for me to do at the time. Um.
And I was closer to my dad at that time
(27:25):
because he was in northern California really really sick, so
I could just like do work and then when Dad called,
I could pop up and just be with him while
he slowly kind of passed through the veil. But um, yeah,
I moved out of town. But you bring wherever you
go there you are okay yourself? Right, No, But like
(27:46):
I think that was once my dad passed away, I
was like, why am I in l A. I don't
really want to be here, like it's great, and it's
just the I was just like, schools aren't great. I
was starting to look at that for Miles you know,
and the community if it was harder to grow out there.
Everyone just hustle lean all the time, day and time.
So we got back to Nashville and I was like,
(28:07):
I'm home. And I think that really played a part
into Front Porch and UM just really really beginning to
settle back in and not settle for something, but to
settle back into um just like you said, the human
the being part versus the doing part. And and so
(28:27):
when I wrote this time around, I waited for the
people that I wanted to work with. It wasn't like, Okay,
who's available, how can I get this done? Like what
can I blah blah. I was like, no, I really
want to write with. And it was a really small
tribe of people. So I just waited until their calendars
opened up in mine worked in between you know, um,
dropping Miles off at school and you know, the regular
(28:48):
everyday errands of being a mom, and sat down and wrote,
what a blessing? Don't you think a lot of times
for me? I know, everyone's like, oh, your job is
so cool, But in any creative job or thing that
you make a job, it ends up becoming a business.
You know, you're chasing the money, or you're chasing a schedule,
or there's all these other demands. So what a cool
(29:10):
experience to get to wait, Yeah, and maybe how you
want to do it? Yeah, I mean I do feel
I do feel like that was a really big gift
and it helped me. It helped me just kind of
calmed down. It calmed my nerves, and I thought, you know,
if I wanted to make money, I probably wouldn't do music, right,
you know, But why do I do this? You know?
I do this because I love I love the nature
(29:33):
of making something that hopefully can connect with someone else
and that maybe someone else can feel a little less
alone because of that, and we can all remember how
connected we are. And it's like, to me, music is
like cooking. It's it's it's fun to cook for yourself,
but it's way more fun to cook for other people
and and invite them in and share that and if
they enjoy it and it nourishes them, then it's like
(29:55):
that just feels even better to me. So it was
it was sort of how do I want to cook?
What kind of meal do I want to cook? This time? Um?
And it and it just slowly came together and I
was writing about what was going on in my life,
going through hard times, coming through realizing what really matters
in life, um, and what really doesn't and what does
(30:16):
it look like to you know, fight for yourself and
fight for love and celebrate celebrate the high times and
acknowledge the low times and and not be afraid to
show up for both. I was going to ask that
how much of what you write as reflective of what's
happening in your life? Oh so much, but so much
(30:37):
also in the sense of it can be what was
happening in my life when I was having a conversation
with one of my good friends, you know, like Trouble
with Wanting is a song that is you know, we
can all, we can all relate to the feeling the
ache of desire um or the thought of like that
what if dot dot dot question mark kind of stuff. Um.
(30:57):
But that was from a conversation I had with one
of my really good friends about her on again off
again relationship for ten years. And then like a song
called Hotel St. Cecilia on the record, it was just
kind of I saw this elderly woman sitting alone at
a bar, and she wasn't like she looked very lovely
and put together. It wasn't like this sad state of affairs,
you know. But I just I just thought, I wonder
(31:18):
what her story is, and I've made one up and
wrote that and but a lot of it is directly autobiographical,
like a song called Preacher's Daughter of that every single
line is directly from my life because you grew up
the pastor's daughter. So um So it's all in there.
(31:38):
It's the the the the movie is in there, the
movie in my mind is in there, and the ordinary
everyday parts of my life are in there, like the
front porch you know that currently has a Howdy welcome
Matt on it, and you know a couple of Razor
scooters and a bike that's all banged up, and you know,
sidewalk chalk on it. And that's that's also in my
(32:00):
real life too. Yeah. I've always been so envious of
songwriters because it seems like such a therapeutic process. I'm like,
you guys don't have to pay for what we have
to pay. Oh no, no, I swear to you. I've
bought several therapists, like like apartments, um with the amount
of therapy um it is. It is good it's good therapy. Yeah,
(32:22):
that is good therapy. And then it also can be like,
if you're not careful, it can be like intense navel gazing.
Me it can just be like, this is what I've
gone through and I can write ten songs about it.
So it's like it could get really dark. Yeah, so
I think it's I tell my son all the time,
You've got to become friends with your with your feelings
so otherwise they'll come outsideways. So true. So it's like
(32:45):
learning to make friends with your feelings also allows allows
us to communicate more clearly and hopefully write better songs.
Feelings are just feelings, yeah, and they're important to acknowledge,
and they're important not to necessarily camp there for like decade.
It's at a time and life is hard. Like I'm
in a season right now that I never thought that
(33:06):
I would have to be in that I never wanted
to be in um and yet this is where I am. Yeah,
and I've got beautiful music in the midst of all
of this, and I have two amazing kids, and and
I think I'm going to be okay. That just made
me think of my favorite song on the album All
I Need I've been listening to that on repeats, and
(33:27):
that also reminds you that is kind of you coming
full circle because there's a lot of spirituality in that.
You know, such a beautiful, simple song, but it's not
simple to downplay. No, no, no, I'm like, I'm glad
it feels that statements are just like oh yeah, yeah.
Hopefully it reminds us of like the elemental aspects of
life exactly, you know, the basics that we need to remember. Um,
(33:49):
so we've talked about your kids a little bit, So
tell me you have two kids. I do. I do.
Old Miles will be seven very soon. Okay, he's so awesome.
Is that a eight? It is? Yeah. He's so full
of life and so full of curiosity, is so much energy.
I mean there's moments I'm like, I mean he wakes
(34:09):
up and it's just like ready to go. Yeah, he
just wakes up on a green light. That's just how
it goes, and you're like, mom, but he's just he
just came out such a light. He's just never lost
that twinkle in his eye. And he's so deeply empathic
as well, so he's got all the all that sort
(34:30):
of like classic you know, some might say boy energy.
I don't necessarily know if it's engendered or not, doesn't
need to be. But he's so very much in his
body yeah, and yet also so very much in his heart.
And he's such a he's just such a roud human being,
and he teaches me a lot, and and then this
wonderful bliss ball um Poppy, Poppy. I have a friend
(34:53):
with a kid named really a little girl. Yeah, so cute.
I love that name. I need to we named her.
We named her Poppy because she her e t a.
When we found out we were pregnant was my late
dad's birthday, and I just thought that's a little full
circle right there. And the grandkids all call them Poppy.
(35:14):
What a cool story. So she was born, she had
her own birthday, which I like. She was born one
day before my dad's birthday, and I like to think
he was cheering her on. So we named her Poppy.
I love that. So how do you balance this career
because obviously you know road life, traveling, you're following your dreams,
(35:35):
but you have these two kids at home. What do
you what is that like? I mean, my dreams, my
dreams get um folded into the deep and absolute privilege
of parenting like that everything changes, Everything changes when you
have a baby. What do you mean tell me more? Well,
(35:55):
you never realized how much time you had on your
hands until you had a That's what everyone told you.
And then you have to And I'm so grateful for it.
But every all your priorities shift, you know, it doesn't.
It's not just about like what can I accomplish? What
can I do now? It's like, how do I do
this in a way where I still my kids know
that I'm there for them all the time. How do
(36:17):
I do this in a way that provides for them?
And um, and I I think I was. I became
less precious And I mean that in a good way
about the music that I make. It was more of
like I just sat on a stool pregnant and sick,
a f recording front porch. I was early pregnant, and
I was and I don't have like that unicorns and
(36:38):
rainbows pregnancies. Like I'm like, what is that? Like you know,
like um, the Duchess of you know, like Kate, you know,
she had like she was sick like twenty four hours
for six or seven months, like all the way through
I was that way and so but I sat down
in a studio and I was like, this is time
to create because it I knew it was going to
(37:01):
keep me really really um honest and how I made
what I made, and it did. I think you can
hear that on the on front porch. You can hear that.
It's there's no striving. I'm literally just sitting down singing
and um. And you know, parenting in general makes you go, Okay,
what really needs to happen versus what do I just
(37:22):
want to happen? And somehow I think it all works
together in a and its attention. I don't when people
say how do you balance it? And like, ain't no
such thing like in this regard, Um, I'm constantly moving,
I'm constantly altering. I'm constantly shifting, like how do I
take care of myself so that I can take really
(37:43):
good care to paids? And and I don't do I
don't do that. I don't I probably don't do that
well a lot. But at least I'm able to say
it and I thought it, yeah, and and and say,
this isn't about doing this perfectly again getting to that
whole thing. Um, it's about how can I do this
(38:03):
with bravery and kindness and and show up for the
people that I love. Um, I'll let you know if
I figure it out, or or you let me know,
and then you can write a book and make a
bazillion dollars and then Oprah will interview you, and then
I will like buy takes to your seminars and you
know it'll be It'll be a whole thing, the whole
(38:25):
Burne Brown thing. Oh my god, I'm speaking my language.
Who I really want to be friends with? Same her
and Oprah would be I mean that people talk about
who they would want to meet, and like, those are
my people. Yea. I would like to be adopted by
Michelle Obama and Oprah and Burnet Brown. And if there's
so many names, who else? Um, I love Glenn and Doyle,
(38:48):
I mean all of those women. Anybody that's been on
Oprah Super Souls today basically so good. Oh my word.
This guy named Richard Roor was just um just talking
with Oprah, and I love Richard Or has been a
part of kind of what changed a bit of my
sort of walk in regards to like what I believe
(39:09):
it was. I think we go through this. I don't
know anybody who grew up in a conservative household, the
temptation might be to just completely deconstruct and just leave
it in a thousand pieces. And I was like that
for a long time. But um, this guy named Richard Ror,
He's a Franciscan monk who um has a center in
New Mexico called the c a C. The Center for
(39:30):
Action and Contemplation, And he wrote this book called Everything
Belongs and it was like my first step back into like, ah, wait,
maybe I don't need to throw it all out and
uh it was a pretty cool, pretty cool path. And
then he got interviewed by Oprah. I'm like, see, see
what you're doing something right? You know? That is like
(39:52):
literal goals, totally totally. Um. That is interesting though about
spirituality because I feel the same way. It's like you, Yeah,
I grew up in a really Christian conservative home and
I don't necessarily practice the same beliefs. But I don't
think it's it never leaves you. It might. For me.
It's just expanded a lot and life has just I
(40:14):
don't know, I just see everything with a bigger perspective
now than I used to. Yeah, I just think there's
so many walls. Why are there so many walls? Like,
if if we could take those walls down, I think
we really get back to the basics, which I think
most teachers in the world. That's what everyone's trying to
remind us of, you know, but to each their own
(40:35):
front porches out a may what's your favorite What was
your favorite part of recording that album? Oh? Man, I
just never had so much fun recording in the studio.
And that's saying a lot, because, like I mentioned, I
was really really dogsick, but and I've been in studios
for many, many years. But working with Kenneth as a
(40:56):
co producer UM was really special. And then the way
in which we went about it just felt really really good.
I Mean, Kenneth was like, Okay, I said, I want
to record this record UM in the most unadulterated way possible,
meaning like I don't want overdubs, So there's no overdubs
on the record. It's literally just like front to back performances.
(41:20):
And UM, I've always said, if you can't do it
in one take, you probably shouldn't try and do it live. Wow. Yeah,
that's a great that's just for me. That's just how
I feel about me and and so the Civil Wars
was that way and UM and then also and then
also recording this was that way too. So there was
just so much ease involved and a lot of laughter.
(41:42):
And Kenneth, you know, really listened when I when I
said this is what I want to do and how
and the players. I didn't know who the players were
going to be, but Kenneth heard me when I said,
everybody that we bring in, I just need them to
be empathic listeners because I don't want them to come
in and just like slap their stuff on it, like
this is how I play, This is what I do.
(42:02):
Everybody that came in, we really set the tone of
we want this to be like we're cooking together, you know.
Then and and let's add what we can, but less
is more so how do we do this? And playing
simply is actually really quite hard to do. Um. But
the amazing talent on the record, you know, he speaks
(42:24):
for itself. You know, got Russ Paul and Scott mulbile
Hill and Caitlyn Canty on back, some background vocals and um,
you know John Melander on fiddle and UM and Anthony
de Costa on guitar and are these all Nashville people,
not all, but they are now. But everyone you know,
came from a different part of the country and live
here now. But it was to Kenneth's credit. Kenneth was saying,
(42:49):
I really think you and Anthony the guitar player, you
guys should just rehearse for two, like two months, and
we did. He Anthony just came to my house and
we rehearsed for two months straight, green velvet couches in
my living room and Kenneth would sit there and we'd
play it through and we'd work out harmonies and so
that when we got in the studio, it was just
like press record and let's go. Yeah, I read was
(43:11):
it five days? Yeah? Fifteen songs and five days. It
was just so easy. It was so easy. It was crazy,
but it was crazy easy with that, and I'd never
experienced it to that degree. It was. I just felt
like there was some really special magic by way of
the hard work leading up to it. Yeah, you know, yeah,
(43:32):
it was. It really was just so joyful in there.
It just felt really the ease was there. It felt
like sitting on a front porch with friends and um,
and that was the whole impetus for starting the record.
You know, when I sat down with songwriters, I said,
you know, what's really coming to me is if I
can't play it on a front porch, it's probably not
for me. And and I remember Liz Rose who helped
(43:54):
me write and Emily Shackleton helped me right front porch.
She was like, well, have you written a song with
that title yet? I was like no. She's like, well,
don't you think we should do that? Yes, it was
a snake it would a bit ye happy did um.
So the album is out. You guys should totally check
(44:16):
it out. I was gonna say, it's funny that you
keep comparing the cooking stuffing because I've been cooking in
my house listening to the Yes. Yes, it's the perfect
like background music for home to me because it's so calming.
I don't know, I just have I've felt the last
three days I've been listening and it's it's definitely a
very calming, contemplative album, like I hear something different every time.
(44:39):
And the lyrics, yeah, which has been really exciting. Okay,
what have your greatest career moments been that you would say?
I know that's like the hardest thing, but I'm curious
because I feel like you've got You've covered so many basses.
She give me like top three. Meeting Paul McCartney and
saying he was a fan. He said he was a face.
(45:02):
I wanted to die. I died. That It's it's down
from there, you know what I'm saying, Like, um, yeah,
that that one was good. Getting matching tattoos with Adele.
Can you tell that story? Yeah? We we went the
Civil Wars. She discovered the music of the Civil Wars
(45:23):
and asked us to come on the road with her,
which is God. We became fast friends on the road,
and I got to witness what it looks like to
go from being somewhat well known to like the sky
rocket like stratospheric fame, and just to watch her stay
(45:45):
the same and and to just bear witness to the
human aspect of all of that too. And uh, we
but we were I was not even close to having
any kids at that point, so we were. I was ps,
do not try and keep up drinking with Adele. Yeah
(46:07):
it was, but we we joke now that like we don't.
We were like we're moms now, we can't even we
can't do that. Yeah, I know, I'm like, oh, that
one really hit me. I'm gonna be up at six
and that one's gonna hurt the half glass of wine
that I had. But um, but I think getting to
go on the road with her, it was really just
a special thing and getting to know her and um,
(46:30):
what's the tattoo. The tattoo is three dots. It's an ellipsus,
which just means to be continued, and it's on our
wrists and um. We finished the tour that leg of
the tour. We finished that leg of the tour and
she um had arranged for a tattoo artist on the bus,
so we went on the bus after our. At the
(46:50):
end of tour, um she had ironically given me a
bottle of gin, which I had gotten terribly, terribly sick
from drinking. Um, so that was a little giggle and
and we got we it was are both of our
first tattoos. And now we kind of we think that
it's I don't know. I haven't so I haven't spoken
to her in a little bit. But but I looked
(47:12):
down and I think to myself, that's right. Everything is
to be continued. You keep you keep an open mind
about what's about to happen. You know, you never know
how life is going to move, but you just keep
remembering there's always more. There's always more to be continued,
like our friendship, and and then we both wound up
having like getting pregnant around the same time, just totally randomly.
(47:33):
So we've joked at times that it's, you know, it's
like us two and our son's connected, you guys. But
and then now I don't know if I need a
out a fourth stop, but then that wouldn't work out
for Poppy, but it wouldn't be an ellipsus, so that
one and then top three. I think it's hard. It's
like I go back and forth between like really small
moments of stepping out on stage and and just that
(47:56):
moment that happens of feeling this deep cycle circle of
gratitude that I feel like, I feel like it's like no,
thank you for being here, and then it's like this
moment of like feeling that thank you and it's like
no thank you, and it's like thank you. That to me,
that's a really small but but really impacting thing for me.
(48:17):
Every time that I don't say you feel that every
show I do, And some days I'm really tired, or
some days with throat hurts, or you're pregnant. Yeah, some
days I'm pregnant, and some days, my you know, I'm
so exhausted, I don't know how I'm going to hit
that high note for that one song. And um, but
it's like sitting down in a living room, you know,
and just being like, I'm so glad you're here, and
(48:38):
and if and if you can keep that conversation going
and just be who you are, it's not putting on
a show. I mean, I do like putting on a show,
but but I think the shows I love going to
the most of the shows where I feel like people
really bring themselves. They bring the drama and they bring
themselves and and like that to me is a highlight
to the career that hopefully I can keep that feeling
(49:01):
of gratitude going always. I mean, like Dolly Parton still
has so much gratitude for her career, like she's a
queen to me forever in a day. And I think
of Emmy Lou Harris, who was never afraid to branch
out and try new things and it is still making
music decades decades later. Like those those aren't even personal
(49:21):
highlights for me. But I look at that and I go, No,
that's a highlight I want to aspire to. What about you?
Oh God, greatest career moments? I mean, I think there's
been people I've gotten to meets or just even be around,
like Emmy, Lou Harris and all of those things that
have been great for me. But I think lately the
thing that I would say that that's kind of hitting
(49:43):
me the most is with gratitude. Is just even though
I don't know what I'm doing with a lot of
the stuff I'm doing, the opportunities keep presenting themselves, you
know what I'm saying, Where it's just like one foot
in front of the other and something is opening up,
and I just know I'm eactly where I'm supposed to be.
This is Kelly Henderson and you've been listening to the
(50:04):
Velvet Edge podcast. I truly believe that every one of
us has a little velvet and a little edge, So
it's so important to remember that to be strong, you
must be soft too. Thank you so much for sharing
in those stories with me. You can follow Velvet's Edge
on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, as well as velvet's Edge
dot com. If you have it yet, Go to Apple
(50:25):
Podcast and subscribe, Rate and review this podcast. Join me
every Wednesday for more conversations on lifestyle, beauty, and relationships.
My thanks to Joy Williams. Her album front Port is
out everywhere now. Thanks for listening.
Host
Kelly Henderson
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