August 29, 2025 • 31 mins
Following up on the conversation with Dr. Z, Kelly and Chip dive into the 9 traits of narcissism as outlined in the DSM-5. Kelly shares her own experience of being in relationships with narcissists—what it looked like, how it felt, and the signs she missed at the time. She also opens up about the indicators she watches for now to know if she’s falling into the same pattern again. Together, Kelly and Chip break down what these traits really mean, how to recognize them in real life, and how understanding them can be the first step toward breaking free from the cycle.
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HOSTS:
Kelly Henderson // @velvetsedge // velvetsedge.com
Chip Dorsch // @chipdorsch
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Are we becoming morning podcast?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I mean I'm still wiping the sleep out of my eyes.
I did finish my coffee.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
Though, so I'm still sipping on mine a little, A
little coffee talk for you, Hi, Chip.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
How are you good morning?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I'm good?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm good. I feel like I've seen you a lot.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
It's like always weird when we've been together a lot
and I'm like, oh, hi, as if we have to
talk to well.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
You know what's funny is when you were full disclosure.
We went out on the lake this weekend in Kentucky
and Kelly came the next day. We got there on Friday,
she shut up Saturday, and on Friday we were like.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I know I came.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
She was not there on Friday, but we were kind
of like we were sitting in the parlor this like
bed breakfast and some of our that we were with us,
like I feel like I haven't seen Kelly in forever,
Like when was the last time you saw Kelly? When?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
When when was the last time we were with Kelly?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
And I was for me, I forget that we're often
not in the same room because I get to see
your face while we're doing this, and I was like,
I don't know. I feel like I see her a lot,
but I think the last time I saw you was
your birthday dinner, like face to face, oh face, But
it doesn't feel like that because I see.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Your face this, no, and I feel very caught up
on your life like all the time, you know. And
then our other friends, if I don't see them, I
give way out of the loop. Yeah, oh it is interesting.
That's so funny because I feel the same way. Yeah. Then,
so it's like we recorded last week, then we stayed
together this weekend, and then now it's Monday that we're
recording this because traveling this week.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So yeah, we've had a lot of togetherness.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Oh yeah, and we'll see each other to look at us.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
We were just having some quality times.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
That's also why we were probably parting on Monday because
of the travels.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Well that is why, oh okay, not probably that is
that is because I don't want to bring this microphone
in Ordia. Yeah, sometimes it's a little tricky to travel
with this stuff. Also, sound is always scary to me,
Like I need my little sound booth.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
That what I'm in right now, you know.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I like to be safe about that so that you
guys don't have to listen to remember that time you
recorded in like the hotel lobby.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, like what is happening right now?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
This is actually a professional podcast, but you're literally in
the lobby.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I couldn't get into my room, so I'm just like
sitting in the lobby, probably looking like a fucking weirdo.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
You looked like a little bit like you didn't have
a home for sure that that day. I'm sitting under some.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Blanket podcasting to it from anywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Such your ad what I is.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Anyway, I'm really excited to talk about this topic with
you because I feel.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Like this is a new thought process for you.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
And we were talking a little bit before the podcast
just about that, and we'll get into it in just
a second. But on Wednesday I had doctor Jamie Zucker,
who I call doctor z that's her Instagram handle, but
she specializes in narcissism and narcissistic abuse, and so she
came on the podcast because what's really been irking me
lately is when anything goes, whether you want to call
(03:13):
it viral or trendy or whatever, it loses its power
in our culture. To me and Narcissism has been something
that's deeply impacted my life and my relationships, and I've
experienced what that can look like and feel like and
how terrible it is, and so watching it get dumbed
down in our society like everyone's just a narcissist now
(03:35):
has been very upsetting for me. So I brought her
on the podcast because I thought, well, the best I
can do is like really try to educate people on
the reality of this word and this topic. And you
came out saying exactly what I would have wanted someone
to get from that podcast. So do you want to
tell the listeners a little bit about what you were
saying to me right before we started.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, I'm look, I have obviously known the word narcissists
for a long time, but I always just sort of
equated it to like someone who loved themselves so much
that they just like they're always talking about themselves, they're
always posting photos of themselves. Like I'm just like, that's narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
You know, she's a narcissist, right, because.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
And yeah, it's like I'm not when someone pulls out
a camera, I'm often like ugh, you know, like, and
so it's so the opposite for me.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
But I'm also like you do you.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Boo, Like, if you love your body and you love
all those things and you think you're pretty, then.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Post all the photos you want. It still feels narcissistic.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
But I learned in this podcast that it's so much
darker than that, and it's stealth, it's subtle. It's not
as obvious as what I thought it to be. And
that does not mean that my definition was wrong either,
because those are narcissistic tendencies that I was identifying as
(04:57):
a narcissist. But I never realized that that true narcissism
is really about how it affects other people and not
about how it affects the narcissist.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yeah, I think the characteristics that you're describing could be
a narcissist, but they also could not be. Like, I
don't know Kim Kardashian personally, so I don't know how
it ebbs and flows in and out of her life
on a bigger scale. And I think, like in this
influencer culture, like I used to post stuff all the
time like that because I was selling the clothes I
was wearing, you know, And I have lately gotten to
(05:31):
the place of not knowing how to do that because
it feels very much like that. I don't know, like
I don't know if it's an age thing or what,
but I sort of am like, oh, I don't want
to post pictures of myself all the time. I feel
gross about it now, you know, because my business has
kind of changed. But I don't think that that is
always an indicator that someone's a narcissist. And so I
was researching that this morning because that was what was
really coming to my brain too. And I'm so glad
(05:53):
that you brought that topic up because I think that
one of the things that doctor Z said that made
sense to me was that it's like it if they're
like that, Say there's someone that posts all the time
on social media and they're just posting selfies about themselves,
I mean selfies or things about themselves all the time,
and then that carries over into all of the aspects
of their life, like all of the different relationships, work, whatever.
(06:15):
If everything is just about them all the time, that
is probably a person that's high in narcissistic traits, or
there could be a person who does that as a
business and then they go into their life and the
focuses on their kids, the focus is on their partner,
the focus is somewhere else. That's probably not a person
that's a full blown nars definitely not a full blown narcissist,
(06:36):
but maybe not even high on narcissistic traits. Like some
of it is just existing in our society, and as
far as we know, Kim Kardashian could just be a
brilliant brand manager, like she's the brand, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Well, it would also like if we take my thoughts
pre social media, where we're controlling the narrative, it would
almost mean that like any model is a narcissist, like
someone that just is making money off of the way
that they look. And that's not the case. It's someone
is recognizing that in them and photographing them and making
them look really great, and it's the way that they
(07:10):
make their money and it really has nothing to do
with their personality.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Right, So I think the social media.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Piece of it has just sort of put it under
a microscope because it is so much more intentional. But
it's also like, you know, Kim was able to rise
to fame by just being Kim. I mean, yes, of
course she does the modeling and she does the magazine
covers and all that shit, but like she can do
so much more with her fingertips, you know. So it
(07:40):
doesn't necessarily mean that she's a narcissist. It means that
she's figured out how to trade off of her looks.
And I don't know her or her life, but it
does look like she's actually a good mom, you know.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah. I mean we just don't until you actually know
someone or you're in a personal relationship with them of
some kind, I think it would be very hard to say,
or if you're like observing relationships that they're in or
across the board, like their full life, and we don't
really get to see that, right, even though there's a
reality show and stuff, like we all know about that.
So yeah, I think it's a really interesting thought. The
(08:12):
one thing I did find when I was researching that
topic about like social media, like if someone posts a
lot about themselves, is that an indication of narcissism? And
an interesting study found that men who post selfies definitely
have a tendency to be more narcissistic, whereas women who
(08:32):
post selfies a lot or whatever. It's not like it's
just could become a part of our culture and something
that is like acceptable and normalized amongst women. But if
a man is doing it, there's a higher percentage of
narcissists found. Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
That's really interesting And it's also why I personally find
it interesting is without knowing that fact, I have felt that,
like when I go on a guy's page, if it's
all selfies, I'm like or Jill run.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
We talked about that a lot with dating profiles. Like
I remember back when I was on all the apps
and stuff seeing men who would just either post like
a ton of selfies or gym pictures or whatever. I
was just like, oh, but if you see that a
girl doing that, I don't have the same reaction.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
If you want to know actual characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder,
you can google that and find the DSM five list,
and there's nine characteristics they talk about. And what we'd
mentioned on the podcast with Doctor Z is like they
do describe narcissism on a sliding scale, so like there's
full blown narcissistic personality disorder, which is the thing that
(09:43):
they would say you can't change from, like you're not
going to be any different. You're not ever going to
change or understand what's going on because you don't care.
And then there's people who have super low narcissistic traits obviously,
and then there's all of us have something, you know.
The way she described it to me was kind of
helpful because it was if you do something like across
(10:06):
the board, So what we were saying about Kim Kardashian like,
it might not be across the board. It might just
be that she posts a lot, and that could be
a business strategy or whatever. But if someone is consistently
the same way in every area of their life, then
they probably are higher on the narcissistic scale. So that
I'll just read the nine characteristics, and they say that
(10:27):
you have to have at least five of these to
be considered a narcissist. So that I'll just read the
nine characteristics and they say that you have to have
at least five of these to be considered a narcissist.
So grandiose sense of self importance, like expect exaggerating achievements,
(10:50):
expecting to be recognized as superior without real accomplishments, too,
is preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty,
or ideal love of three belief that they are special
and unique and can only be understood by or associate
with people of like certain high status, or that they're
special for some reason. The thing coming into my brain
(11:14):
right now is like the terminal uniqueness. Like I see
this a lot of times with people where they're just like, oh,
my story is so much harder than everyone else's, or
like somehow they're the victim of something, and it's like, no,
everyone's going through that too, Like you're just so in
your own world that you have no idea. Four it
requires excessive admiration. Five sens of entitlement. Six interpersonally exploitive,
(11:39):
like taking advantage of others to achieve on their own end.
Seven lack empathy eight often envious of others. Nine arrogant,
haughty behaviors or attitudes. I thought it was interesting because,
like the excessive admiration, I think that's what you were
like associating. You said, because they just need that, and
it's because they think so highly of themselves, and we
(12:01):
were like, no, actually they don't, though they need the
admiration because they feel so low about themselves, right, it's like.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
They're drug Yeah, they.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Actually hate themselves or they have super low self confidence.
So that's where all of these survival skills develop, is
needing all of that. The other thing is is, you
know they talk about the grandiose narcissism, which I think
is what a lot of us would associate with narcissism.
There's also something called covert narcissism or vulnerable narcissism, and
(12:29):
those are going to be the types that have a
lot of these tendencies. Except for the grandiose behavior like
the big charming whatever, they're more the quiet, the subtle,
the manipulative behind closed doors. But I think the thing
that you learn the most from doctor Z was like,
it's all about power and control.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right, all about Yeah, that was the one though that
the first note that I wrote down from listening was
it's all the always an underlying function of power and control.
Envything is really interesting to me too, because it's not
a trait that you expect from someone that you think
is narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
But it then makes so.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Much sense to think that envy could drive narcissism because
you want to be better or look better or do
better than the people around you, So the narcissists qualities
would come out when you have to belittle what someone
else has done or make their achievements feel like less
(13:30):
of achievements because you know they're creeping into your territory
and it's taking nothing from you, but you.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Have attention, yeah, attention Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
But they also then expect you to be envious of
like they want so badly for you to be envious
of them because their envy is driving that.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
It's like a mind weird.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I mean, I as much as I think it would
be really painful to be in a relationship with a narcissist,
it can suck.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
To be a narcissist. Yeah, sad, Like what are the benefits?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
I don't understand, like it it feels like it's one
of those things where it's like if you built your
life on a like house of cards, you know, like
that is everything. It's everything's a lie and at a
certain point, like you can't even remember who you've lied to,
what you've lied about, and everything would just crumble. And
(14:25):
the fear of knowing that every day is one step
closer to that moment would be debilitating for me.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
I don't know that there's an awareness about that other
than the need to protect it at all times, which
is why as life goes on, the behaviors amp up,
because the more you have at stake, the more power,
the more control you have to operate from, you know,
or with the envy piece, Like we all come across
people who excel at things in their lives, you know,
(14:55):
but people are my experience, people with high narcissistic traits
cannot hold space for someone else to be winning as well,
like to be succeeding in life as well, Like there's
only room for the one, and as long as they
stay in that position, great, and then everyone else can
do all their things as long as it's not competing.
(15:16):
But the second it starts to threaten anything about what
they deem as like their spot, you'll get taken out.
The war begins. It's just like the dismantling of whatever
your life or whatever your success is, like they will
start in that or that's been my experience. So it's
wild though, because you're like, wait, I was never a.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Threat to you, what was?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
It's a really weird experience or like often like if
you're in a love relationship or a friendship, like you
would just think that the other person on the other
side of that would want you to win, Like I
want my boyfriend to have the most success, Like I
want you to have the most success, Like I want
you to be happy in your life and win and
(16:00):
like succeed, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Like whatever that looks like, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Like I can't understand feeling like I want to destroy
you because you're winning.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, I mean I've I've always approached life, you know,
because I'm such a sports ball guy, like a team
mentality where it's like, if you're winning, it's good for everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Like give me, that's another sports.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Team mentality.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
I mean, as much as I've been talking to you lately,
I'm not sure I know you anymore.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah, it's just a win for one person should be
a win for everybody. It should never be a loss
for the greater good.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
What's so weird is that when I've had this situation happen,
it's like how I've looked at it is that we're.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
All on the same team.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, the situations where I was feeling like I was
being taken out and I'm like, wait what, It's so confusing,
this whole dynamic and until you see it, I think
you're left thinking like something is wrong with you because
it's so mind fucky. But like what doctor Z said,
the second you start to see it and that starts
to just unravel, you can't not see it anymore, Like
(17:12):
you'll start seeing it across the board in your life
of all the different ways this could be showing up,
or anytime you meet a person high on narcissistic skille,
you're probably going to recognize it faster. Like, once you
see it, it's definitely not one of those things you
can unsee, and you know the danger of it, I think,
and so you start being like, I don't want to
participate in that anymore, Yeah, because it's never going to
(17:32):
end well.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Well. One of the things that really struck me with
what she said was about the defining moment of when
you recognize it. Yeah, she said, it's a moment of
clarity when you realize that there are no alternative responses
except for the one you don't want it to be.
If you accept that to be what it is, your
entire view of humanity and of people changes, and your
entire view of the world is pulled out from under
(17:55):
you and you have to reformulate how you think about
and see things. And that's fucking terrifying because suddenly you
have to on a molecular level change the way that
you see and believe about the world because someone has
manipulated or controlled or you know, not cared about you
(18:18):
in the way that you cared about them. And it
felt symbiotic for a really long time, and then you're like,
wait a minute, something's you know, and it's that's really
scary to be like, it makes you feel like a fool.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Well, yeah, because there's like a naivety that comes with it,
where you're like, why didn't I move in this place?
And I dealt with that for a long time. I
even talked about that with her, of just that feeling
of am I an idiot? But it's like, no, you're not.
It's just they're I think a really good Well we
just guess. But we also all moved through the world
through the lens at which we see things, or how
(18:53):
we're wired or how we're built, and I just used
to assume that everyone saw things that way.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I didn't realize I was doing that.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
But like, yeah, you just assume that the people that
you're dating or in a friendship with or even like
that you work for would have a good interest for you,
because why else are you in a relationship they could
have that, But it's still just about if as long
as they're on top and they're above you and they
can control you, and if that is the basis of
(19:23):
your relationship, and if you buck back at all, if
it explodes the relationship, that communicates everything to you, Because
like if you and I got in a fight and
you said to me, Kelly, you really hurt my feelings
or I feel like you're being really unfair about this
for the podcast or whatever, I would want to hear you.
I'm not saying I could make the changes necessarily, but
we could have an open dialogue and I wouldn't personalize it.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
As like Chip is just out to get me. I've
got a distress.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Oh I would mind.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah, I would just be like, let me think about
what he's saying.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Can I see his side, and then like weigh the
decisions that way. I would want you to feel like
an equal partner in all the things that we're doing together,
you know, even just our friendship, Like I want you
to feel hurt. I want you to be happy, like
I want you to feel good like all of those things.
But if that's not the response you're getting, I think
that's a really big indicator of the dynamic of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, it's been mine to open it.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yeah. Yeah, And there's a lot of grief that comes
from seeing it, because I think, like if you hold
certain people or certain relationships in certain regards and then
you see it, and then you can't unsee it, Like
we're saying, it's sad because you have a lot of
grief around what you thought the relationship was and where
it is now or what the.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Reality is, and ultimately and correct me if you think
I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
But she she also said, like, if you're an abusive
narcissistic relationship, one of the last things you should do
is let them know that you're onto it totally because
it would escalate their behavior.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, so that you should not tell them that you
figured it out.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So it's almost like it's a fight you're never gonna win, absolutely,
because they're never going to see your side of the story,
so you kind of have to just bow out and
protect yourself, which feels like such a fucking pussy move.
And it also feels like you're forfeiting and you're choosing
the loss. But if it's a fight, you're never going
(21:22):
to win. It's like going to war without a gun.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Oh yeah, and like the way to win is not
she said that, it's not engage. Yeah, and it's not
what you because it's not what you think it would be.
I spent so many years being like, if I just
say this in a different way than this person will
hear me, you know, And I tried that. This was
multiple different relationships, but I just thought if I could
just word it differently, I must have said it in
a way that they can't understand. So and let me
(21:47):
say it again, let me like figure this out, or screaming,
you know, like getting into the intense fight being like no,
if they see, if they feel the emotion that I'm
feeling or whatever, then we'll be able to understand each other.
I just remember were in all the situations I was in,
there was the moment where it's just like everything drops.
You realize that no matter what you say, how you
(22:09):
say it, when you say it, any of those details,
it's not going to change anything about them. It's just
not So you quit. For me, that was in every situation.
One of the most freeing feelings was to be like,
I'm just not going to do this anymore, Like, fine,
you win, right, you win, I'll step back whatever it is,
I'll stay silent. But that's actually you winning because you get.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, yeah, I mean the beauty in that is they've
now lost controls and that.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Sort and so you win.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
But it feels it's weird because that's the manipulation at play.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
That it also feels like you lost, like you gave up,
and well, you did lose.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Being in a relationship with a narcissist or someone who's
highly narcissistic, it's.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
A loser's game.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Is a loser's game.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Yeah, if I start to sense it now, I'm like bye, right, Yeah,
it's like.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
The point of the point of it all, and learning
through those experiences is to never let it happen again.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
I have to be honest with myself when I'm in
a relationship like that. I am not a version of
myself that I like, right, And so if those kind
of characteristics in another person are going to bring out
those sides of me, it is my responsibility to say
I can't engage in these kind of dynamics, and like,
as much as I would love to be like I'm
strong enough, it will wear me down.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
It does.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I'm just human.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
So it's like I can have all the head knowledge,
I can have all the practice, I can have all
of my wits about me or whatever and boundaries and
all the things. But if I spend too much time
with a highly narcissistic person, I will get worn down.
That is case and point, and that will always happen,
and so like, I have to really be conscious of
(23:49):
that if I want to keep trying to show up
as my best self in this world. You know, it's
a really tricky dynamic, but I do believe this to
be true that once you see it, you can't see it.
And then the more you kind of stay with that
and allow the truth to be in your vision or whatever,
it's just it changes everything.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
So I mean, since you can speak from experience, sure,
what are those red flags that you might recommend somebody
looking for early on so you can fucking they can
bow out before they're in too deep? What are those
(24:33):
red flags that you might recommend somebody looking for early
on so you can fucking they can bow out before
they're in too deep.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
I mean, I'll only speak because I'm not a doctor,
so I don't want to say like this for everybody,
but the things I recognize in myself, I'll say this
is confusion. If I feel confused in the situation, there's
something wrong. I'm not stupid, So like, right, if I'm
feeling confused and I try to talk and I get
more confused, Like if I try to have a conversation
(25:04):
with a person and I get more confused, something is
going on, like some sort of manipulation, lie gaslighting is
going on. And I know that to be true because
I know that I'm a smart person and I have
an understanding of humans with that, like, I'm not stupid,
so I wouldn't be confused. And I had to really
like get to that confidence within myself because for so
(25:27):
long I was just like, well, I'm just not getting
it or am I missing something, Like I'm not seeing
this clearly. But I've done enough work on myself now
to be like no, because I have other healthy relationships too,
and I don't feel confused. And if I feel confused,
I go talk to the person and we talk it
out clarity. So if I'm never able to get clarity,
and there's always a sense of confusion. Unless I just
(25:49):
go along with what the other person is saying, something's off.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So that's one.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
The other thing for me is I do like I
have like a body awareness about it now, And I
don't really know how to tell people how to get
this because unfortunately it came from a lot of years
of living in dynamics like this. But when I'm talking
to a person with high narcissistic traits, my body tenses
up and I get anxious, and I start to like
worry about saying the right thing, Like I don't want
(26:17):
to offend them. I don't want to like I'm just
really worried about delivery about well, oh, I can't say
that to them, they'll get so upset or whatever. And
when I think about my relationships that aren't with narcissistic people,
I don't think about that. I just speak, I just do.
I just act, And if I need to make amends
for something I did, I will always do that. But like,
I'm not over analyzing every word I say or how
(26:40):
I say it or when I present it or whatever.
That's always a thing for me. That's another indicator. And
then just like the battery drain. Do I feel like
I have been in a reciprocal situation that like fuels
me up too, or like fills me up to or
do I leave feeling just so depleted in and like
(27:01):
who am I like? She gave the example of this woman,
one of her clients who had gotten to the point
of being in the relationship and not even knowing what
flavor ice cream she likes, right, And I know that
sounds like ridiculous to some people, but that was very
much my experience. Is you lose so much of who
you are and you have to be so disconnected from
self to stay in these relationships that you really can't
(27:24):
see left from right anymore unless they're telling you what
it is. So essentially, if you can't feel your own preferences,
if you don't feel like you can stay true to
your own preferences and exist in these relationships, or that
you can. I mean, there's like obviously compromise in all relationships,
but there's a difference, Like there's a big difference between
compromising and like, you know, you and your partner doing
(27:48):
something that's mutually beneficial and you sacrificing and self sacrificing
continuously to the point of not even knowing what you
like anymore or what your fucking name is is Like
that's that's where I got. I was like, I am
just going through so many motions of life and feeling
like if I didn't have this person or one of
(28:10):
the many in my life telling me kind of which
direction to go or like almost correcting my direction when
I would go the way I wanted to go, I
just felt like so confused, like what's the right decision?
And now that I'm in a different place, I'm like,
if I feel confused, I need to sit with my
body and get quiet, and I know, like I'll know,
I need to tap into my intuition, you know, I
(28:30):
need to connect with myself. I need to like journal
it out or whatever, spend time with myself. I got
so dependent I couldn't even be by myself anymore, Like
it just started to be like anxiety all the time.
And then the other thing is like physical. If you're
in a deep narcissistic relationship, you will have physical reactions
like go, look at yourself in the mirror if you're
(28:52):
feeling this, and can you make eye contact and do
your eyes look happy or sad? Like I literally looked
sad all the time. I was so vacant in my eyes.
I was super skinny. We talked about that this weekend.
Like fifteen pounds I think was what.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
I've I mean, and you only weigh sixteen to begin,
so I don't know where.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
But I was fifteen pounds lighter than I am right now,
which is yeah, I'm not a big person with so
it was very like skeletal of sad to see. But yeah,
those are the main ones actual.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Maybe I need to start dating a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Oh my god, I don't even make these.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's the new fad diet.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
There's no more zimpic. It's like, here's how you lose weight.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
There's all the infomas an asshole.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, it's just like it becomes a dating app. With
this guy. You could lose ten pounds. With this guy,
you'll lose twenty.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
You'll lose everything, including weight. This is so fucked up,
so dark.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
God, I did not see this going there.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Oh God.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Anyway, those are jokes, and sometimes you do have to
have a sense of humor about this stuff because it
can feel really dark and heavy. So I don't know
if anybody is listening seriously, if anybody is listening and
they're really resonating with the stuff we say and you're
freaking out about your situation, please feel free to reach
out to me, because I know this can be one
of the most isolating experiences and oftentimes people in relationships
(30:17):
with narcissists can't really find an outlet because people don't
believe you for a long time too, you know, especially
if they're not seeing it, which with a lot of situations,
you don't see it for yourself. You have to be
in the relationship because it's so insidious and it's so
psychological too, So if you are experiencing that, please feel
free to reach out to me. You can always email
(30:37):
us at the Edge at velvetsedge dot com, or you
can slide into my DMS personally it's at Velvet's Edge.
I do check all of those myself, so you guys
can do that. Chip what if they want to reach
out to you.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
You know, I can be found on Instagram at Chip Doors.
It's Chip drsch.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
And we are growing our podcast Instagram. It's at Velvet's
Edge podcast and it's been fun to kind of interact
with you guys on that I'm loving that. It's just
more intensive information about each podcast. We are going to
keep growing that as well to be more interactive with
you guys. So go follow us there at Velvet Edge Podcast.
You can watch this podcast on YouTube. We are all
(31:17):
the places. We do have a TikTok as well. It's
at Velvet Edge on TikTok. So there you go, come
talk to us, and if you are, definitely if you're
experiencing any sort of situation that you relate to any
of the things we said with this topic, in particular
about narcissism, definitely reach out because it can be crazy
making so but you are not crazy.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
This is just crazy making shit.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
So anyway, we're going to go about our week and
as you guys go into your weekend and you're living
on the edge, I hope you always remember too
Speaker 2 (31:49):
A casual night
Are we becoming morning podcast?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I mean I'm still wiping the sleep out of my eyes.
I did finish my coffee.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
Though, so I'm still sipping on mine a little, A
little coffee talk for you, Hi, Chip.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
How are you good morning?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I'm good?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm good. I feel like I've seen you a lot.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
It's like always weird when we've been together a lot
and I'm like, oh, hi, as if we have to
talk to well.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
You know what's funny is when you were full disclosure.
We went out on the lake this weekend in Kentucky
and Kelly came the next day. We got there on Friday,
she shut up Saturday, and on Friday we were like.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I know I came.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
She was not there on Friday, but we were kind
of like we were sitting in the parlor this like
bed breakfast and some of our that we were with us,
like I feel like I haven't seen Kelly in forever,
Like when was the last time you saw Kelly? When?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
When when was the last time we were with Kelly?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
And I was for me, I forget that we're often
not in the same room because I get to see
your face while we're doing this, and I was like,
I don't know. I feel like I see her a lot,
but I think the last time I saw you was
your birthday dinner, like face to face, oh face, But
it doesn't feel like that because I see.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Your face this, no, and I feel very caught up
on your life like all the time, you know. And
then our other friends, if I don't see them, I
give way out of the loop. Yeah, oh it is interesting.
That's so funny because I feel the same way. Yeah. Then,
so it's like we recorded last week, then we stayed
together this weekend, and then now it's Monday that we're
recording this because traveling this week.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So yeah, we've had a lot of togetherness.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Oh yeah, and we'll see each other to look at us.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
We were just having some quality times.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
That's also why we were probably parting on Monday because
of the travels.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Well that is why, oh okay, not probably that is
that is because I don't want to bring this microphone
in Ordia. Yeah, sometimes it's a little tricky to travel
with this stuff. Also, sound is always scary to me,
Like I need my little sound booth.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
That what I'm in right now, you know.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I like to be safe about that so that you
guys don't have to listen to remember that time you
recorded in like the hotel lobby.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, like what is happening right now?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
This is actually a professional podcast, but you're literally in
the lobby.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I couldn't get into my room, so I'm just like
sitting in the lobby, probably looking like a fucking weirdo.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
You looked like a little bit like you didn't have
a home for sure that that day. I'm sitting under some.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Blanket podcasting to it from anywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Such your ad what I is.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Anyway, I'm really excited to talk about this topic with
you because I feel.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Like this is a new thought process for you.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
And we were talking a little bit before the podcast
just about that, and we'll get into it in just
a second. But on Wednesday I had doctor Jamie Zucker,
who I call doctor z that's her Instagram handle, but
she specializes in narcissism and narcissistic abuse, and so she
came on the podcast because what's really been irking me
lately is when anything goes, whether you want to call
(03:13):
it viral or trendy or whatever, it loses its power
in our culture. To me and Narcissism has been something
that's deeply impacted my life and my relationships, and I've
experienced what that can look like and feel like and
how terrible it is, and so watching it get dumbed
down in our society like everyone's just a narcissist now
(03:35):
has been very upsetting for me. So I brought her
on the podcast because I thought, well, the best I
can do is like really try to educate people on
the reality of this word and this topic. And you
came out saying exactly what I would have wanted someone
to get from that podcast. So do you want to
tell the listeners a little bit about what you were
saying to me right before we started.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, I'm look, I have obviously known the word narcissists
for a long time, but I always just sort of
equated it to like someone who loved themselves so much
that they just like they're always talking about themselves, they're
always posting photos of themselves. Like I'm just like, that's narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
You know, she's a narcissist, right, because.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
And yeah, it's like I'm not when someone pulls out
a camera, I'm often like ugh, you know, like, and
so it's so the opposite for me.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
But I'm also like you do you.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Boo, Like, if you love your body and you love
all those things and you think you're pretty, then.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Post all the photos you want. It still feels narcissistic.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
But I learned in this podcast that it's so much
darker than that, and it's stealth, it's subtle. It's not
as obvious as what I thought it to be. And
that does not mean that my definition was wrong either,
because those are narcissistic tendencies that I was identifying as
(04:57):
a narcissist. But I never realized that that true narcissism
is really about how it affects other people and not
about how it affects the narcissist.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yeah, I think the characteristics that you're describing could be
a narcissist, but they also could not be. Like, I
don't know Kim Kardashian personally, so I don't know how
it ebbs and flows in and out of her life
on a bigger scale. And I think, like in this
influencer culture, like I used to post stuff all the
time like that because I was selling the clothes I
was wearing, you know, And I have lately gotten to
(05:31):
the place of not knowing how to do that because
it feels very much like that. I don't know, like
I don't know if it's an age thing or what,
but I sort of am like, oh, I don't want
to post pictures of myself all the time. I feel
gross about it now, you know, because my business has
kind of changed. But I don't think that that is
always an indicator that someone's a narcissist. And so I
was researching that this morning because that was what was
really coming to my brain too. And I'm so glad
(05:53):
that you brought that topic up because I think that
one of the things that doctor Z said that made
sense to me was that it's like it if they're
like that, Say there's someone that posts all the time
on social media and they're just posting selfies about themselves,
I mean selfies or things about themselves all the time,
and then that carries over into all of the aspects
of their life, like all of the different relationships, work, whatever.
(06:15):
If everything is just about them all the time, that
is probably a person that's high in narcissistic traits, or
there could be a person who does that as a
business and then they go into their life and the
focuses on their kids, the focus is on their partner,
the focus is somewhere else. That's probably not a person
that's a full blown nars definitely not a full blown narcissist,
(06:36):
but maybe not even high on narcissistic traits. Like some
of it is just existing in our society, and as
far as we know, Kim Kardashian could just be a
brilliant brand manager, like she's the brand, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Well, it would also like if we take my thoughts
pre social media, where we're controlling the narrative, it would
almost mean that like any model is a narcissist, like
someone that just is making money off of the way
that they look. And that's not the case. It's someone
is recognizing that in them and photographing them and making
them look really great, and it's the way that they
(07:10):
make their money and it really has nothing to do
with their personality.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Right, So I think the social media.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Piece of it has just sort of put it under
a microscope because it is so much more intentional. But
it's also like, you know, Kim was able to rise
to fame by just being Kim. I mean, yes, of
course she does the modeling and she does the magazine
covers and all that shit, but like she can do
so much more with her fingertips, you know. So it
(07:40):
doesn't necessarily mean that she's a narcissist. It means that
she's figured out how to trade off of her looks.
And I don't know her or her life, but it
does look like she's actually a good mom, you know.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah. I mean we just don't until you actually know
someone or you're in a personal relationship with them of
some kind, I think it would be very hard to say,
or if you're like observing relationships that they're in or
across the board, like their full life, and we don't
really get to see that, right, even though there's a
reality show and stuff, like we all know about that.
So yeah, I think it's a really interesting thought. The
(08:12):
one thing I did find when I was researching that
topic about like social media, like if someone posts a
lot about themselves, is that an indication of narcissism? And
an interesting study found that men who post selfies definitely
have a tendency to be more narcissistic, whereas women who
(08:32):
post selfies a lot or whatever. It's not like it's
just could become a part of our culture and something
that is like acceptable and normalized amongst women. But if
a man is doing it, there's a higher percentage of
narcissists found. Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
That's really interesting And it's also why I personally find
it interesting is without knowing that fact, I have felt that,
like when I go on a guy's page, if it's
all selfies, I'm like or Jill run.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
We talked about that a lot with dating profiles. Like
I remember back when I was on all the apps
and stuff seeing men who would just either post like
a ton of selfies or gym pictures or whatever. I
was just like, oh, but if you see that a
girl doing that, I don't have the same reaction.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
If you want to know actual characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder,
you can google that and find the DSM five list,
and there's nine characteristics they talk about. And what we'd
mentioned on the podcast with Doctor Z is like they
do describe narcissism on a sliding scale, so like there's
full blown narcissistic personality disorder, which is the thing that
(09:43):
they would say you can't change from, like you're not
going to be any different. You're not ever going to
change or understand what's going on because you don't care.
And then there's people who have super low narcissistic traits obviously,
and then there's all of us have something, you know.
The way she described it to me was kind of
helpful because it was if you do something like across
(10:06):
the board, So what we were saying about Kim Kardashian like,
it might not be across the board. It might just
be that she posts a lot, and that could be
a business strategy or whatever. But if someone is consistently
the same way in every area of their life, then
they probably are higher on the narcissistic scale. So that
I'll just read the nine characteristics, and they say that
(10:27):
you have to have at least five of these to
be considered a narcissist. So that I'll just read the
nine characteristics and they say that you have to have
at least five of these to be considered a narcissist.
So grandiose sense of self importance, like expect exaggerating achievements,
(10:50):
expecting to be recognized as superior without real accomplishments, too,
is preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty,
or ideal love of three belief that they are special
and unique and can only be understood by or associate
with people of like certain high status, or that they're
special for some reason. The thing coming into my brain
(11:14):
right now is like the terminal uniqueness. Like I see
this a lot of times with people where they're just like, oh,
my story is so much harder than everyone else's, or
like somehow they're the victim of something, and it's like, no,
everyone's going through that too, Like you're just so in
your own world that you have no idea. Four it
requires excessive admiration. Five sens of entitlement. Six interpersonally exploitive,
(11:39):
like taking advantage of others to achieve on their own end.
Seven lack empathy eight often envious of others. Nine arrogant,
haughty behaviors or attitudes. I thought it was interesting because,
like the excessive admiration, I think that's what you were
like associating. You said, because they just need that, and
it's because they think so highly of themselves, and we
(12:01):
were like, no, actually they don't, though they need the
admiration because they feel so low about themselves, right, it's like.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
They're drug Yeah, they.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Actually hate themselves or they have super low self confidence.
So that's where all of these survival skills develop, is
needing all of that. The other thing is is, you
know they talk about the grandiose narcissism, which I think
is what a lot of us would associate with narcissism.
There's also something called covert narcissism or vulnerable narcissism, and
(12:29):
those are going to be the types that have a
lot of these tendencies. Except for the grandiose behavior like
the big charming whatever, they're more the quiet, the subtle,
the manipulative behind closed doors. But I think the thing
that you learn the most from doctor Z was like,
it's all about power and control.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right, all about Yeah, that was the one though that
the first note that I wrote down from listening was
it's all the always an underlying function of power and control.
Envything is really interesting to me too, because it's not
a trait that you expect from someone that you think
is narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
But it then makes so.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Much sense to think that envy could drive narcissism because
you want to be better or look better or do
better than the people around you, So the narcissists qualities
would come out when you have to belittle what someone
else has done or make their achievements feel like less
(13:30):
of achievements because you know they're creeping into your territory
and it's taking nothing from you, but you.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Have attention, yeah, attention Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
But they also then expect you to be envious of
like they want so badly for you to be envious
of them because their envy is driving that.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
It's like a mind weird.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I mean, I as much as I think it would
be really painful to be in a relationship with a narcissist,
it can suck.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
To be a narcissist. Yeah, sad, Like what are the benefits?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
I don't understand, like it it feels like it's one
of those things where it's like if you built your
life on a like house of cards, you know, like
that is everything. It's everything's a lie and at a
certain point, like you can't even remember who you've lied to,
what you've lied about, and everything would just crumble. And
(14:25):
the fear of knowing that every day is one step
closer to that moment would be debilitating for me.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
I don't know that there's an awareness about that other
than the need to protect it at all times, which
is why as life goes on, the behaviors amp up,
because the more you have at stake, the more power,
the more control you have to operate from, you know,
or with the envy piece, Like we all come across
people who excel at things in their lives, you know,
(14:55):
but people are my experience, people with high narcissistic traits
cannot hold space for someone else to be winning as well,
like to be succeeding in life as well, Like there's
only room for the one, and as long as they
stay in that position, great, and then everyone else can
do all their things as long as it's not competing.
(15:16):
But the second it starts to threaten anything about what
they deem as like their spot, you'll get taken out.
The war begins. It's just like the dismantling of whatever
your life or whatever your success is, like they will
start in that or that's been my experience. So it's
wild though, because you're like, wait, I was never a.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Threat to you, what was?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
It's a really weird experience or like often like if
you're in a love relationship or a friendship, like you
would just think that the other person on the other
side of that would want you to win, Like I
want my boyfriend to have the most success, Like I
want you to have the most success, Like I want
you to be happy in your life and win and
(16:00):
like succeed, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Like whatever that looks like, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Like I can't understand feeling like I want to destroy
you because you're winning.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, I mean I've I've always approached life, you know,
because I'm such a sports ball guy, like a team
mentality where it's like, if you're winning, it's good for everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Like give me, that's another sports.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Team mentality.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
I mean, as much as I've been talking to you lately,
I'm not sure I know you anymore.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah, it's just a win for one person should be
a win for everybody. It should never be a loss
for the greater good.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
What's so weird is that when I've had this situation happen,
it's like how I've looked at it is that we're.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
All on the same team.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, the situations where I was feeling like I was
being taken out and I'm like, wait what, It's so confusing,
this whole dynamic and until you see it, I think
you're left thinking like something is wrong with you because
it's so mind fucky. But like what doctor Z said,
the second you start to see it and that starts
to just unravel, you can't not see it anymore, Like
(17:12):
you'll start seeing it across the board in your life
of all the different ways this could be showing up,
or anytime you meet a person high on narcissistic skille,
you're probably going to recognize it faster. Like, once you
see it, it's definitely not one of those things you
can unsee, and you know the danger of it, I think,
and so you start being like, I don't want to
participate in that anymore, Yeah, because it's never going to
(17:32):
end well.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Well. One of the things that really struck me with
what she said was about the defining moment of when
you recognize it. Yeah, she said, it's a moment of
clarity when you realize that there are no alternative responses
except for the one you don't want it to be.
If you accept that to be what it is, your
entire view of humanity and of people changes, and your
entire view of the world is pulled out from under
(17:55):
you and you have to reformulate how you think about
and see things. And that's fucking terrifying because suddenly you
have to on a molecular level change the way that
you see and believe about the world because someone has
manipulated or controlled or you know, not cared about you
(18:18):
in the way that you cared about them. And it
felt symbiotic for a really long time, and then you're like,
wait a minute, something's you know, and it's that's really
scary to be like, it makes you feel like a fool.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Well, yeah, because there's like a naivety that comes with it,
where you're like, why didn't I move in this place?
And I dealt with that for a long time. I
even talked about that with her, of just that feeling
of am I an idiot? But it's like, no, you're not.
It's just they're I think a really good Well we
just guess. But we also all moved through the world
through the lens at which we see things, or how
(18:53):
we're wired or how we're built, and I just used
to assume that everyone saw things that way.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I didn't realize I was doing that.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
But like, yeah, you just assume that the people that
you're dating or in a friendship with or even like
that you work for would have a good interest for you,
because why else are you in a relationship they could
have that, But it's still just about if as long
as they're on top and they're above you and they
can control you, and if that is the basis of
(19:23):
your relationship, and if you buck back at all, if
it explodes the relationship, that communicates everything to you, Because
like if you and I got in a fight and
you said to me, Kelly, you really hurt my feelings
or I feel like you're being really unfair about this
for the podcast or whatever, I would want to hear you.
I'm not saying I could make the changes necessarily, but
we could have an open dialogue and I wouldn't personalize it.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
As like Chip is just out to get me. I've
got a distress.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Oh I would mind.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah, I would just be like, let me think about
what he's saying.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Can I see his side, and then like weigh the
decisions that way. I would want you to feel like
an equal partner in all the things that we're doing together,
you know, even just our friendship, Like I want you
to feel hurt. I want you to be happy, like
I want you to feel good like all of those things.
But if that's not the response you're getting, I think
that's a really big indicator of the dynamic of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, it's been mine to open it.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yeah. Yeah, And there's a lot of grief that comes
from seeing it, because I think, like if you hold
certain people or certain relationships in certain regards and then
you see it, and then you can't unsee it, Like
we're saying, it's sad because you have a lot of
grief around what you thought the relationship was and where
it is now or what the.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Reality is, and ultimately and correct me if you think
I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
But she she also said, like, if you're an abusive
narcissistic relationship, one of the last things you should do
is let them know that you're onto it totally because
it would escalate their behavior.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, so that you should not tell them that you
figured it out.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So it's almost like it's a fight you're never gonna win, absolutely,
because they're never going to see your side of the story,
so you kind of have to just bow out and
protect yourself, which feels like such a fucking pussy move.
And it also feels like you're forfeiting and you're choosing
the loss. But if it's a fight, you're never going
(21:22):
to win. It's like going to war without a gun.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Oh yeah, and like the way to win is not
she said that, it's not engage. Yeah, and it's not
what you because it's not what you think it would be.
I spent so many years being like, if I just
say this in a different way than this person will
hear me, you know, And I tried that. This was
multiple different relationships, but I just thought if I could
just word it differently, I must have said it in
a way that they can't understand. So and let me
(21:47):
say it again, let me like figure this out, or screaming,
you know, like getting into the intense fight being like no,
if they see, if they feel the emotion that I'm
feeling or whatever, then we'll be able to understand each other.
I just remember were in all the situations I was in,
there was the moment where it's just like everything drops.
You realize that no matter what you say, how you
(22:09):
say it, when you say it, any of those details,
it's not going to change anything about them. It's just
not So you quit. For me, that was in every situation.
One of the most freeing feelings was to be like,
I'm just not going to do this anymore, Like, fine,
you win, right, you win, I'll step back whatever it is,
I'll stay silent. But that's actually you winning because you get.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, yeah, I mean the beauty in that is they've
now lost controls and that.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Sort and so you win.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
But it feels it's weird because that's the manipulation at play.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
That it also feels like you lost, like you gave up,
and well, you did lose.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Being in a relationship with a narcissist or someone who's
highly narcissistic, it's.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
A loser's game.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Is a loser's game.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Yeah, if I start to sense it now, I'm like bye, right, Yeah,
it's like.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
The point of the point of it all, and learning
through those experiences is to never let it happen again.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
I have to be honest with myself when I'm in
a relationship like that. I am not a version of
myself that I like, right, And so if those kind
of characteristics in another person are going to bring out
those sides of me, it is my responsibility to say
I can't engage in these kind of dynamics, and like,
as much as I would love to be like I'm
strong enough, it will wear me down.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
It does.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I'm just human.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
So it's like I can have all the head knowledge,
I can have all the practice, I can have all
of my wits about me or whatever and boundaries and
all the things. But if I spend too much time
with a highly narcissistic person, I will get worn down.
That is case and point, and that will always happen,
and so like, I have to really be conscious of
(23:49):
that if I want to keep trying to show up
as my best self in this world. You know, it's
a really tricky dynamic, but I do believe this to
be true that once you see it, you can't see it.
And then the more you kind of stay with that
and allow the truth to be in your vision or whatever,
it's just it changes everything.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
So I mean, since you can speak from experience, sure,
what are those red flags that you might recommend somebody
looking for early on so you can fucking they can
bow out before they're in too deep? What are those
(24:33):
red flags that you might recommend somebody looking for early
on so you can fucking they can bow out before
they're in too deep.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
I mean, I'll only speak because I'm not a doctor,
so I don't want to say like this for everybody,
but the things I recognize in myself, I'll say this
is confusion. If I feel confused in the situation, there's
something wrong. I'm not stupid, So like, right, if I'm
feeling confused and I try to talk and I get
more confused, Like if I try to have a conversation
(25:04):
with a person and I get more confused, something is
going on, like some sort of manipulation, lie gaslighting is
going on. And I know that to be true because
I know that I'm a smart person and I have
an understanding of humans with that, like, I'm not stupid,
so I wouldn't be confused. And I had to really
like get to that confidence within myself because for so
(25:27):
long I was just like, well, I'm just not getting
it or am I missing something, Like I'm not seeing
this clearly. But I've done enough work on myself now
to be like no, because I have other healthy relationships too,
and I don't feel confused. And if I feel confused,
I go talk to the person and we talk it
out clarity. So if I'm never able to get clarity,
and there's always a sense of confusion. Unless I just
(25:49):
go along with what the other person is saying, something's off.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So that's one.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
The other thing for me is I do like I
have like a body awareness about it now, And I
don't really know how to tell people how to get
this because unfortunately it came from a lot of years
of living in dynamics like this. But when I'm talking
to a person with high narcissistic traits, my body tenses
up and I get anxious, and I start to like
worry about saying the right thing, Like I don't want
(26:17):
to offend them. I don't want to like I'm just
really worried about delivery about well, oh, I can't say
that to them, they'll get so upset or whatever. And
when I think about my relationships that aren't with narcissistic people,
I don't think about that. I just speak, I just do.
I just act, And if I need to make amends
for something I did, I will always do that. But like,
I'm not over analyzing every word I say or how
(26:40):
I say it or when I present it or whatever.
That's always a thing for me. That's another indicator. And
then just like the battery drain. Do I feel like
I have been in a reciprocal situation that like fuels
me up too, or like fills me up to or
do I leave feeling just so depleted in and like
(27:01):
who am I like? She gave the example of this woman,
one of her clients who had gotten to the point
of being in the relationship and not even knowing what
flavor ice cream she likes, right, And I know that
sounds like ridiculous to some people, but that was very
much my experience. Is you lose so much of who
you are and you have to be so disconnected from
self to stay in these relationships that you really can't
(27:24):
see left from right anymore unless they're telling you what
it is. So essentially, if you can't feel your own preferences,
if you don't feel like you can stay true to
your own preferences and exist in these relationships, or that
you can. I mean, there's like obviously compromise in all relationships,
but there's a difference, Like there's a big difference between
compromising and like, you know, you and your partner doing
(27:48):
something that's mutually beneficial and you sacrificing and self sacrificing
continuously to the point of not even knowing what you
like anymore or what your fucking name is is Like
that's that's where I got. I was like, I am
just going through so many motions of life and feeling
like if I didn't have this person or one of
(28:10):
the many in my life telling me kind of which
direction to go or like almost correcting my direction when
I would go the way I wanted to go, I
just felt like so confused, like what's the right decision?
And now that I'm in a different place, I'm like,
if I feel confused, I need to sit with my
body and get quiet, and I know, like I'll know,
I need to tap into my intuition, you know, I
(28:30):
need to connect with myself. I need to like journal
it out or whatever, spend time with myself. I got
so dependent I couldn't even be by myself anymore, Like
it just started to be like anxiety all the time.
And then the other thing is like physical. If you're
in a deep narcissistic relationship, you will have physical reactions
like go, look at yourself in the mirror if you're
(28:52):
feeling this, and can you make eye contact and do
your eyes look happy or sad? Like I literally looked
sad all the time. I was so vacant in my eyes.
I was super skinny. We talked about that this weekend.
Like fifteen pounds I think was what.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
I've I mean, and you only weigh sixteen to begin,
so I don't know where.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
But I was fifteen pounds lighter than I am right now,
which is yeah, I'm not a big person with so
it was very like skeletal of sad to see. But yeah,
those are the main ones actual.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Maybe I need to start dating a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Oh my god, I don't even make these.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's the new fad diet.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
There's no more zimpic. It's like, here's how you lose weight.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
There's all the infomas an asshole.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, it's just like it becomes a dating app. With
this guy. You could lose ten pounds. With this guy,
you'll lose twenty.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
You'll lose everything, including weight. This is so fucked up,
so dark.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
God, I did not see this going there.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Oh God.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Anyway, those are jokes, and sometimes you do have to
have a sense of humor about this stuff because it
can feel really dark and heavy. So I don't know
if anybody is listening seriously, if anybody is listening and
they're really resonating with the stuff we say and you're
freaking out about your situation, please feel free to reach
out to me, because I know this can be one
of the most isolating experiences and oftentimes people in relationships
(30:17):
with narcissists can't really find an outlet because people don't
believe you for a long time too, you know, especially
if they're not seeing it, which with a lot of situations,
you don't see it for yourself. You have to be
in the relationship because it's so insidious and it's so
psychological too, So if you are experiencing that, please feel
free to reach out to me. You can always email
(30:37):
us at the Edge at velvetsedge dot com, or you
can slide into my DMS personally it's at Velvet's Edge.
I do check all of those myself, so you guys
can do that. Chip what if they want to reach
out to you.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
You know, I can be found on Instagram at Chip Doors.
It's Chip drsch.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
And we are growing our podcast Instagram. It's at Velvet's
Edge podcast and it's been fun to kind of interact
with you guys on that I'm loving that. It's just
more intensive information about each podcast. We are going to
keep growing that as well to be more interactive with
you guys. So go follow us there at Velvet Edge Podcast.
You can watch this podcast on YouTube. We are all
(31:17):
the places. We do have a TikTok as well. It's
at Velvet Edge on TikTok. So there you go, come
talk to us, and if you are, definitely if you're
experiencing any sort of situation that you relate to any
of the things we said with this topic, in particular
about narcissism, definitely reach out because it can be crazy
making so but you are not crazy.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
This is just crazy making shit.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
So anyway, we're going to go about our week and
as you guys go into your weekend and you're living
on the edge, I hope you always remember too
Speaker 2 (31:49):
A casual night
Host
Kelly Henderson
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