April 15, 2020 • 31 mins
Kelly talks to licensed professional counselor and author of Conquer Anxiety in Ten Weeks, Jessie Jenson. The duo discuss different types of anxiety and what “normal” symptoms people often don’t even realize come from anxiety. They also dive into Jessie’s book and the different tools she gives for conquering anxiety.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the
Velvet Edge podcast. I have talked openly about the battle
that I have with anxiety. Mine often comes in the
form of uncontrollable insomnia or sometimes even panic attacks. I
think right now, of any time during this coronavirus pandemic,
there are many people facing their battles with anxiety at
(00:22):
even higher rates. So this week I wanted to get
some help and tools for all of us around the
topic of anxiety. My guest is licensed professional counselor and
author of the book Conquer Anxiety in ten Weeks, Jesse Jensen.
Jesse and I talked through the different types of anxiety
and why many women specifically are facing tons of anxiety
(00:42):
in today's society. Jesse also broke down some different tools
and fixes for facing your anxiety head on and how
to keep these practices in place in tough times like
we are all facing right now. Here's our conversation. So
I think it's pretty common to hear people today talking
about anxiety. Seems just like a common topic. Do you
think anxiety is actually more prevalent today or is it
(01:04):
just talked about more openly than it was in the past. Yeah,
that's a really good question. Um. I don't think anyone
has a great answer with that. Um. I think that absolutely,
people are being more open about it and talking about
it a lot more, um So that definitely could impact that.
(01:25):
But also there's a lot more things going on in
our lives today that maybe there wasn't in the past
that could be contributing to more anxiety. So it's hard
to say for sure, but um, I think there could
be a little bit of both kind of happening there.
Do you mean that we're just so overspar, just so
spread thin, and we have so much more pressure than
maybe they did in the past. It does seem like
(01:46):
people back in the day lived a much simpler life,
doesn't it. It does? It sounds nice sometimes, right, I
guess I kind of getting a taste of that right
now on this isolation period. Absolutely, rely, Absolutely, And it's
interesting that even the isolation is causing a lot of
anxiety to um increase. But yeah, I think we are
(02:07):
being pulled in so many directions nowadays. It seems like,
um so, I think that there has a lot to
do with our anxiety. I mean, we have preussures on
us all over. Um so you're, you know, many of
us are maybe mothers and working, and so you're trying
to balance how how am I being a good mom
and being attentive to my kids, But I still have
(02:29):
this full time job, and I need to make enough
funny to also support this family. And we have all
these different roles that we're playing right now. So absolutely,
I would say that we're spread a little bit more
sin than or yeah, than maybe we used to be.
This is a long paragraph from your book, but I
loved what you said about anxiety and women in today's society.
(02:49):
This is what your book addresses specifically, but I thought
this was so spottle on I have to read it.
It says women should really be described as today's modern
superheroes because they continue to have more and more expectation
in their life. Women are quote supposed to be skinny,
have flawless skin, have long thick hair, be sexy yet classy,
and have all the best clothes and accessories. Women are
(03:11):
also supposed to work full time, be excellent in their careers,
make enough money to support a family, all while fighting
against their gendered stereotypes. Women are supposed to continue to
be the primary caretaker for their children and make sure
they are using all the safe products, all the safe foods,
and the correct amount of discipline. Women are supposed to
(03:32):
be the primary caretaker of the home and make sure
it always looks like people don't actually live there, that
it's supposed that it's the most up to date in
stylish decor, and that the best homemade food is always cooking.
Women are also supposed to be the part the best
partners by always being attentive, wanting to have sex at
least once a week, and be able to ask for
(03:52):
help without being naggy. Women are also supposed to find
time for themselves but taking long hot baths, socializing with
their friends, exercising a minimum of three weeks three days
a week, reading, and maintaining their health. And we wonder
why anxiety is affecting so many women? Where? Right? That?
I was like right, so right, and so you know
(04:17):
a lot of the book comes like from my own experiences, right,
So these are of course things that I feel, um,
And you know, it's very interesting I think how so
many women can also relate to this paragraph like this
is women everywhere? Right? It summed it up. I think
that really summed it up for me specifically. And you know,
(04:37):
the thing that I think is so interesting is we
don't even think about that, We don't talk about that.
We just do that and then wonder why we're so
stressed out all the time and have so much anxiety
and can't sleep at night. Absolutely, and you know, many
women don't even realize that what they're struggling with is
actually anxiety disorder. Yes, okay, so you mentioned that you
(05:00):
came to a lot of these conclusions because of your
own journey with anxiety. Can you tell us a little
bit about that. Yeah? Sure, um. Absolutely. One of the
reasons that in my professional life, I guess that I
like working with women um and anxiety so much is
just because I've experienced anxiety since I can remember. I
mean like a little girl. Um, I remember like laying
(05:22):
in a top bunk with my sister and you know,
asking her if the house was going to burn down. Um,
I think that you know, someone was going to kidnap
me or whatever that was. I remember having stomach aches
a lot, and we didn't really know why. UM, so
a lot of anxiety even as a kid, But at
that time we didn't really realize, like you know, this
(05:43):
was anxiety. It was just like normal, This is just
how Jesse is, right, so, you know. So we didn't
really pick up on that until much later in my
life when I was in college and started learning more
about psychology and anxiety, and then even more specifically when
I got to my master's program. Um, those programs are
the best because you learn a ton but you're also
(06:05):
required to do like a ton of self reflection. It's
like your own kind of therapy. So I think I
learned a lot about obviously anxiety and how to treat it,
but also how does this actually affect my life and
what does it look like for me? Um? And so yeah, absolutely,
there's worries that are different, you know, every day. It's
(06:29):
not like there's one specific worry all the time. It seems,
you know that I'm a little bit older and have kids.
I would say a lot of my worries tend to
be around my kids, making sure they're okay and you know,
bad things are going to happen. So that's where my
anxiety has kind of, I think evolved. But at this
point in my life it doesn't get in the way
(06:49):
of me doing my everyday things. I'm able to manage
my anxiety in a pretty healthy way at this point.
So that's a benefit that I've learned kind of through
my schooling and working with it so much. Yeah, it's
interesting because you did school and you are a therapist,
and so you I would think that you would be
(07:09):
the one saying, now you need to go to therapy
every week and you need to be doing this, But
actually in this book, you you mentioned that you really
want to give people the tools so that they can
take that into their real life and they're not just
having to sit in a therapy session every week without
making any sort of strides towards relief from this anxiety. Right. Yeah,
(07:31):
So yeah, I do you know, I counsel people four
days a week, and I would say a majority of
these people that I'm doing therapy with having anxiety. And
I think going to see a counselor is a great,
great thing and can have so many benefits. But the
reality is, just like what we were talking about women
in today's society, the reality is is that we don't
(07:51):
all have the time, money, or resources to get into
see our therapist, right right, So I really wanted to
create something where women who weren't having that experience could
still have a relatable way, in an easy way to
kind of get treatment and help as many women as
(08:13):
I possibly could. So, so the book is called Conquer
Anxiety in ten Weeks. It's a guide book for overwhelmed
women who dared to be fearless, which I love that statement.
Can you give us a summary of what this book is. Yeah,
So the book kind of is broken up into sections. UM.
(08:33):
When I was thinking about this book and wanting to
write it, UM, I wanted it to be um as
close to what I could do in therapy, like book
version of that, right, So I broke it up into
sections week by weeks. So the beginning of the book
just talks a lot about education about what anxiety is
and where that comes from and how it affects women today.
(08:55):
But then it goes through and talks about ten different weeks.
At each week you're learning a new skill, and at
the end of that chapter you have an activity that
you're supposed to be practicing for that week. UM. And
so the book is meant to be read in chronological order,
so not to be like skipping around UM. And it's
(09:16):
also meant for you to take your time, so sometimes
you might grasp a week like sooner or it's easier
for you than maybe a different week, But I still
don't want you to jump ahead that you're still just
taking that full week to really understand that skill so
that you can apply it to your life without needing
the book. That makes total sense. And I told you
(09:38):
just before we started this podcast. But I don't want
to go through all the details of the books because
because I just think it's a great read that for
anyone who's struggling with anxiety to just go out and
get it. But I do want to touch on some
of what you just mentioned and kind of just why
this method works. So let's just talk through Like the
first chapter, for instance, is about educating yourself about an anxiety,
(10:00):
which I think I am a person who I like
to read about this stuff a lot, so I just
would have thought that was normal. But do a lot
of people not even really understand what anxiety is? Yeah? Yes, Um,
there are plenty of people that I'm seeing in my office,
UM that like to me either describing like exactly what
(10:23):
an anxiety disorder might look like, and they have no
idea that that's what they're experiencing. Um. And also there
are you know, there's a lot of different types of
anxiety disorders. But the other thing that I see too
is that people will come in and they'll they'll be
almost scared to tell me stuff because they think that
I'm going to think, you know, they're quote unquote crazy,
(10:43):
or that I'm going to have to admit him to
a hospital, or I'm going to say that they're not
fit to have their kids. And then it's like the
more we start talking about these things, they're like, oh
my gosh, Jesse, this is normal. Yeah, this is anxiety,
and you know, maybe thick anxiety disorders or whatever. But yeah, absolutely,
there are a lot of people that don't even realize
(11:04):
that what they're struggling with is actually anxiety. Well, you
mentioned two main anxiety disorders in the book, right, can
you talk through those? Yeah? So this so why I
specify in this book that there's these two anxiety disorders,
generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder is because there
are more appropriate UM treatment methods for say things like
(11:29):
o c D or trauma like PTSD related things. Um,
So this book is really really geared more towards the
generalized anxiety and the socialized anxiety disorder, philth you want
I can go through and just kind of talk to
you a little bit about you know, as a clinician,
what do we look for when we're diagnosing these things. Yeah,
I think that would be helpful because I'm sure a
(11:50):
lot of people listening might be like the people who
walk into your office and they have all these symptoms
that they just don't understand that that is a normal
thing and that's just anxiety, right. Yes, So, um, when
clinicians you come into a clinician's office, they are looking
for specific criteria that you might be talking about that
would be able to kind of give you a diagnosis
(12:11):
of an anxiety disorder. So, for generalized anxiety disorder, what
we're looking for is that we have excessive and uncontrollable
worries about a lot of different events or areas in
your life that they may be feeling restless or on edge,
maybe feeling fatigued, have difficulty concentrating, experiencing irritability, muscle tension,
(12:33):
and sleep disturbances. So it doesn't have to be all
of those things, but um, if you're experiencing at least
three or more of those kind of symptoms, and this
is happening more often than not, You're probably struggling with
an anxiety disorder. So I thought that was interesting, the
part about UM not being able to concentrate, because I
(12:55):
think in some cases I associate my anxiety and I've
dealt with anxiety from is my life as well. But
with that like heavy heartbeat or like with a panic
when I can't go to sleep at night, those kind
of feelings, but that inability to concentrate, sometimes I'm just like,
what's wrong with me? Like why can't I get my
work done? Or why are the why is this taking
me so long? Or why can't I remember remember my
(13:18):
to do list? And what you say in the book
is that can often be associated with high anxiety. Yes,
it can and can often look like other disorders, like
for example, like xactly, I get that a lot like
I'm struggling with a d h D and come to
find out it's probably a lot more of anxiety related
(13:39):
things because absolutely UM lack of concentration and memory can
be affected by anxiety. So interesting, Okay, so then what's
the other the other anxiety disorder you mentioned? Yeah, so
then the other anxiety disorder that the book mentions is
a social anxiety disorder. So social anxiety disorder UM is
revolved obviously and more around social situations. UM. They used
(14:04):
to call us or another name for it would be
like a social phobia. UM. So it's when an individual's
experiencing high levels of anxiety in social situations where specifically
they will be exposed to like possible scrutiny by others. Um.
The biggest fear with the social anxiety disorder is that
I'm going to be viewed in a way that's going
(14:24):
to negatively impact me or embarrass me. I'm going to
say something or do something stupid or look silly or
in some way be negatively UM viewed by someone and
ultimately possibly rejected by these people. Do you often see
them happening together or that people suffer from both disorders
or is it more separate? UM? I think it could
(14:49):
be either. UM. I don't know that I necessarily see
them more together or not together, but you they certainly
can be co occurring. Okay. Interesting. So once you educate yourself,
you talk about the biggest key being just acceptance, and
I think that's I mean, that's the biggest key to
a lot of life, right, but why is acceptance of
(15:13):
just accepting your reality and all of in the current
moment and all of those feelings. Why is that so important? Yeah,
that's a great question because I think when I start like, okay,
so that's two of the book and people are kind
of like, what, like, this is what I'm doing too,
I thought I was gonna be jumping into all these things.
But I really kind of argue that probably acceptance is
(15:34):
one of the most important skills that you can learn
with your anxiety, because if we can't first accept what
it is that we're struggling with and dealing with it,
we can't see it clearly. Right. We tend to them
be like, no, that's not anxiety, or I'm fine, or
no I don't need anything. Right. So if we don't
first kind of accept and say, oh, I might be
(15:56):
struggling with anxiety and you know, I'm actually not doing okay,
we don't actually start looking at the steps that we
need and to take in order to start managing in
a healthy way. So go ahead and sorry, no, yeah,
I was just gonna say, so, that's why I feel
like the anxiety of the acceptance piece is so so important. Yeah,
why is that our nature to want to be like no, fine,
(16:19):
or this is an exactly what what makes acceptance so hard,
I think because we have a lot of misconceptions about
what acceptance means. So acceptance only means that we are
seeing what's happening in this current moment and realizing that, hey,
(16:40):
I don't have a ton of control over this right now.
It just is what it is. It's neither good nor bad.
But when you say that to someone, acceptance has all
these negative terms that go with it, like you're giving up,
or you're weak, or what you're experiencing is okay, or
maybe what someone did you was okay. So we have
(17:01):
maybe these negative connotations to that word acceptance that it
means if I accept this, then there's something wrong with me,
right When in reality, what you say in the book
is acceptance means accepting reality in the current moment. That's
it just as it is. This is what's happening. You
don't have to like it, but this is what's happening exactly.
(17:21):
I think that's such a big part of our society that,
I mean, I do this. I'm very guilty of this too.
But we don't want life to be painful, right, so
it's it's hard, I think. I know for me, I
can only speak for myself, but I want to do
anything I can to avoid pain in most cases. And
then and that's just not realistic because there are things
that are going to happen in our life if you're
(17:43):
actually living life, that are going to be painful, and
to try to wish it away it's just really unrealistic.
But that's kind of your whole point in this process,
and especially the acceptance piece, is that you can learn
tools to help you get through those painful, inevitable moments
in life. Yes, absolutely, And it makes sense because when
(18:05):
we're being hurt or like, anxiety is service. So if
you feel like we're in danger in some way, even
if it's just perceived fear, our reaction is protection, right, So,
and like to avoid and like I shouldn't feel that way,
so we want to kind of like avoid that. But yeah,
the reality is that life is not meant to be
pain free and that actually a lot of experiences in
(18:29):
life require anxiety, and that anxiety is actually the very
healthy response to that situation, right. I know, for me,
the hard thing is is like if you've been through
something painful, you're this is what I say to myself,
like haven't had enough yet? Like I feel like in
some ways I've had There's been situations where I'm like, yep,
I'm like done with pain now, you know. Yeah, but
(18:49):
that actually produces a lot more anxiety when I'm trying
to live life because it's it's just completely unrealistic. So
after you talk about the acceptance piece, you go into
my mindfulness. Why is this important? I found this chapter
very very interesting. Oh, um, I I love mindfulness personally. Um.
(19:11):
I think mindfulness is just a great tool and skill
to learn just for our daily lives. So just practicing
mindfulness once a day, even when you're not feeling anxious,
just help ground and kind of read juvenated us is
such a good thing. Um. But specifically when treating anxiety,
mindfulness is so great because, for one, if we can
(19:33):
approach a situation mindfully, staying in this current moment and
not projecting into the future of all these terrible things
that are going to happen. But if we can stay mindfully,
we can see the path and like what we need
to get better through that, um. And also like the
key to mindfulness is again that I'm purposely staying present
(19:57):
in the here and now with awareness on like what's
going on around me and within me. So, if you
take that definition of mindfulness, anxiety is the exact opposite
of mindfulness. Right. So when I ask people, typically when
you're experiencing anxiety, are your thoughts past, present, or future oriented?
(20:18):
Most of the time I'm getting past in future right,
So not very often are we ever experiencing anything in
this moment right now that anxiety is helpful for us.
So if we can take that mindfulness and come back
to the present moment and say, okay, wait is that
thing happening right now and say no, it's not, so
(20:38):
I'll deal with it when I get there. So you
mentioned that mindfulness can be learned, and even listening to
you describe it right now, I was thinking, gosh, I
truly live so much in my head and a lot
in the past and a lot in the future, like
you said, So, how can we learn how to be mindful?
That's a good question. Um. I think mindfulness, like I said,
(21:02):
it is absolutely a practice. So it's something that when
we're trying to learn, Um, I mean truthfully, when I
first started learning about mindfulness, I hated it. I didn't
understand it. I didn't like it. I didn't understand why
the people were, you know, trying to get me to
do this, um. But the reality was I wasn't understanding
(21:23):
it correctly. So in my idea it was that mindfulness
I needed to have a blank mind, so like almost
a white piece of paper, right, But the reality of
their mind doesn't really work that way. So it's not
so much about having a blank mind as it is
just not getting lost in our thoughts. So if a
thought comes up, I acknowledge it and I'm aware of it,
(21:44):
but I allow it to pass. Um. So mindfulness is
definitely a practice, something that you should start doing, just
even a little bit each day. And then there are
different like activities I guess you could say that could
help you practice getting in that state of mind until
you get to be maybe a little bit better. Where
you hear people are like meditating for hours of the day, right, Yeah,
(22:07):
I mean meditation is one thing I've specifically struggled with
and I don't know what it is. I dread it
every time I goes to sit down to do it. Um.
I do also think I have a lot of judgment,
which you talk about in the book to not have
judgment on yourself. It's not about clearing your mind or
you know, anything like controlling the thoughts that are coming in,
but just recognizing what is coming in and releasing it,
(22:30):
like you say, which is a huge practice for most
people when they start to learn to meditate. Yes, absolutely,
and that again mindfulness. One of the key components of
mindfulness is approaching it with um being non judgmental. So
that's a big thing. So like when you're sitting there
and you're meditating, and then all of a sudden you
realize maybe for the last minute you've been thinking about
(22:52):
all the stuff I have to do at work tomorrow. Um,
we don't judge ourselves. And god, I can't even meditate,
you know, I'm so terrible at this. Don't just gently
bring our mind back to our awareness of like the
present current moment. Maybe that's your breath, or maybe that's
the feeling of your you know, legs if you're sitting
on the floor, whatever that looks like. But it's just
(23:12):
like a gentle bringing back trying to approach it with
without judgment. Well, the next big portion of the book
UM breaks down the difference between rational and irrational thought,
And it made me think, how much is of my
anxiety is actually just irrational thought? So how much of
(23:34):
our anxiety are we just making up in our head? Well,
so I would say that for people that are struggling
with you know, true anxiety disorders, and we're experiencing anxiety
when anxiety isn't helpful, most of those thoughts are irrational.
So what do you mean when the anxiety isn't helpful?
(23:55):
So there are situations in life that anxiety is the
appropriate response, and it actually allows us to be more successful. Um.
For example, this is just like a basic example. But
let's say, um, you know, in college or you know,
high school, whatever that is, you have a test tomorrow
(24:16):
and you feel anxious about that. Well, having a little
bit of that anxiety in that situation is probably very
appropriate because if you fear that you're going to fail,
you're more likely to study and do better. Right, So
for something like that, anxiety may be appropriate. Um. Now,
when we are experiencing anxiety and we're worried about what
(24:37):
so and so thinks about us that I'm going to
see tonight, that's not helpful for me, right, Like, that's
not in any way making me better or making me
perform better. That's irrational thought, right, That's what I would
call mind reading. Well, you also there's a part of
the activity. I don't remember it's specifically on this chapter
(24:58):
or not, but you have a chart that kind of
breaks down this is what's happening, what is the reality? Um?
Is that actually true? Like you say the yes and knows.
I can't remember the exact breakdown on the chart, but
that that activity in and of itself, just asking yourself,
like what part of that is true? Because for me,
(25:21):
I don't even I think the you know, the mindfulness.
All that stuff is obviously the first steps, because you
have to recognize what you're feeling. But like specifically, when
you mentioned what someone's thinking about you, like, we don't
know what other people are thinking, so you have to
actually ask yourself, is this actually happening or is this
just happening in my head? Absolutely? Yeah, So we kind
of um kind of talk about to um the different
(25:43):
cognitive distortions that people typically engage in, and so sometimes too,
if you get good at recognizing that, you can label
it and say, oh, I'm totally mind reading right now.
That is also another really good way to check to
see if that's a rational spot, because if you know
you're engaging in a cognitive story action, it's not a
rational thought. Probably something that we need to restructure. Um.
(26:04):
But otherwise, Yeah, you're going through and you're just you're
asking yourself where you know these thoughts are present? Is
there evidence that supports these thoughts. If there is evidence
that's supporting those thoughts, then that's probably telling you that
your emotional response is appropriate for that situation. If, on
the other hand, which is probably more likely that there's
(26:25):
not any evidence that's supporting those thoughts, they ask more
than likely telling us, Okay, this anxiety isn't helpful for
me right now. I can restructure these thoughts or practice
a different coping skill to help manage this. Okay, we've
mentioned a couple of times that you have these activities
at the end of each chapter, and you really, you know,
suggest that people put these into practice for a week
(26:46):
at a time before they move on to the next chapter.
What do you feel is beneficial about having an actual
practice versus doing just weeks and weeks and years and
years of just talk therapy. Well, I think there's a
couple a couple of things. Um. The reason that I
(27:06):
specifically like to give an activity to be practicing for
that week is, for one, it creates um some accountability. Right,
So like if you're supposed to be working on this thing,
it's going to be something that Okay, I gotta you know,
I have to focus on that today. I have to
focus on that today. And that's one way that this
is going to be develop a routine kind of throughout
(27:28):
your life. Um. The other thing is that we learn
best by doing two ways of learning. So maybe you're reading,
but then also you're writing. Yeah, so that's a really
good way to learn whatever the skill is for that week,
for it to really sink in. Yeah, yeah, that makes
total sense. Um, you just mentioned that putting things into
(27:53):
practice because you know this isn't going to go away.
That's the thing about anxiety. It's similar to the pain thing.
Like if you suffer from an anxiety disorder, the chances
are you're going to feel anxiety again at some point
in your life. You're not just going to get fixed
if you do enough therapy or you read this book
or anything like that. But it is about putting things
into practice, especially when things come up and you get
(28:15):
triggered because that's the thing, right, Like, none of this
is just going to go away, right, And that's actually
one of the you know, big things that I talked
about in the book, and that the book book does
not claim to cure anxiety because we have not found
to cure for anxiety right now. Even the best of
medication just helps us manage anxiety, doesn't actually cure it.
(28:37):
So unfortunately, Yeah, if you're a person who tends to
be a little bit more anxious and struggles with anxiety,
that's probably something that's going to continue to come up
in different parts of your life. And will notice that
there's some periods of time when like, oh we're great,
um and this anxiety is like super will and then
there's periods of our life where anxiety is really high.
(28:58):
So yeah, that's it's good to have these skills so
that you have them, you practice them, you're good at them,
so that when that anxiety comes up again, you're like, Okay,
I got this right. How has your anxiety changed over
the years. Well, I would say that kind of like
I said, sometimes I think what I hear myself and
also other people is sometimes the content changes. So obviously
(29:23):
I'm not like worried about the house burning down anymore,
things like that. Like the content has definitely changed. Um.
But I would say most of the time now, I'm
not having long periods of anxiety anymore. UM. So there
are definitely things that come up that make me feel anxious,
and I get that. For me, it's like a drop
(29:43):
in my stomach. UM, And I still experience that sometime.
Unfortunately for me, I'm one of the people that if
I am feeling a lot of anxiety, I also get
images associated with that. So it's not just a physical
feeling of anxiety, it's I see it happening. It's like
a movie in my brain right and so that is
very distressful at times. But I notice it doesn't last
(30:05):
for very long anymore. So it peaks and then it
very quickly goes away because I'm taking care of it
right away, and you probably recognize it quicker. Yes. Interesting.
The book is Conquer Anxiety in ten weeks. Jesse Jensen,
thank you so much for being here, UM, thank you
so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Where
can people find you so they can't follow me on
(30:29):
Instagram at Jesse Jensen Therapy UM and then I also
have my website and where the UM book is posted
is Insight Counseling Services WI dot com Insight Counseling Services.
You guys, go check it out. I truly recommend this book.
It's an easy read, it's very quick, and the activities
(30:50):
are super helpful. I've actually started to put some into
practice myself. So and thank you Jesse. Yes, you're very welcome.
I'm so happy to hear that. All right, thank you again,
and thank you guys for listening. H m hm
This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the
Velvet Edge podcast. I have talked openly about the battle
that I have with anxiety. Mine often comes in the
form of uncontrollable insomnia or sometimes even panic attacks. I
think right now, of any time during this coronavirus pandemic,
there are many people facing their battles with anxiety at
(00:22):
even higher rates. So this week I wanted to get
some help and tools for all of us around the
topic of anxiety. My guest is licensed professional counselor and
author of the book Conquer Anxiety in ten Weeks, Jesse Jensen.
Jesse and I talked through the different types of anxiety
and why many women specifically are facing tons of anxiety
(00:42):
in today's society. Jesse also broke down some different tools
and fixes for facing your anxiety head on and how
to keep these practices in place in tough times like
we are all facing right now. Here's our conversation. So
I think it's pretty common to hear people today talking
about anxiety. Seems just like a common topic. Do you
think anxiety is actually more prevalent today or is it
(01:04):
just talked about more openly than it was in the past. Yeah,
that's a really good question. Um. I don't think anyone
has a great answer with that. Um. I think that absolutely,
people are being more open about it and talking about
it a lot more, um So that definitely could impact that.
(01:25):
But also there's a lot more things going on in
our lives today that maybe there wasn't in the past
that could be contributing to more anxiety. So it's hard
to say for sure, but um, I think there could
be a little bit of both kind of happening there.
Do you mean that we're just so overspar, just so
spread thin, and we have so much more pressure than
maybe they did in the past. It does seem like
(01:46):
people back in the day lived a much simpler life,
doesn't it. It does? It sounds nice sometimes, right, I
guess I kind of getting a taste of that right
now on this isolation period. Absolutely, rely, Absolutely, And it's
interesting that even the isolation is causing a lot of
anxiety to um increase. But yeah, I think we are
(02:07):
being pulled in so many directions nowadays. It seems like,
um so, I think that there has a lot to
do with our anxiety. I mean, we have preussures on
us all over. Um so you're, you know, many of
us are maybe mothers and working, and so you're trying
to balance how how am I being a good mom
and being attentive to my kids, But I still have
(02:29):
this full time job, and I need to make enough
funny to also support this family. And we have all
these different roles that we're playing right now. So absolutely,
I would say that we're spread a little bit more
sin than or yeah, than maybe we used to be.
This is a long paragraph from your book, but I
loved what you said about anxiety and women in today's society.
(02:49):
This is what your book addresses specifically, but I thought
this was so spottle on I have to read it.
It says women should really be described as today's modern
superheroes because they continue to have more and more expectation
in their life. Women are quote supposed to be skinny,
have flawless skin, have long thick hair, be sexy yet classy,
and have all the best clothes and accessories. Women are
(03:11):
also supposed to work full time, be excellent in their careers,
make enough money to support a family, all while fighting
against their gendered stereotypes. Women are supposed to continue to
be the primary caretaker for their children and make sure
they are using all the safe products, all the safe foods,
and the correct amount of discipline. Women are supposed to
(03:32):
be the primary caretaker of the home and make sure
it always looks like people don't actually live there, that
it's supposed that it's the most up to date in
stylish decor, and that the best homemade food is always cooking.
Women are also supposed to be the part the best
partners by always being attentive, wanting to have sex at
least once a week, and be able to ask for
(03:52):
help without being naggy. Women are also supposed to find
time for themselves but taking long hot baths, socializing with
their friends, exercising a minimum of three weeks three days
a week, reading, and maintaining their health. And we wonder
why anxiety is affecting so many women? Where? Right? That?
I was like right, so right, and so you know
(04:17):
a lot of the book comes like from my own experiences, right,
So these are of course things that I feel, um,
And you know, it's very interesting I think how so
many women can also relate to this paragraph like this
is women everywhere? Right? It summed it up. I think
that really summed it up for me specifically. And you know,
(04:37):
the thing that I think is so interesting is we
don't even think about that, We don't talk about that.
We just do that and then wonder why we're so
stressed out all the time and have so much anxiety
and can't sleep at night. Absolutely, and you know, many
women don't even realize that what they're struggling with is
actually anxiety disorder. Yes, okay, so you mentioned that you
(05:00):
came to a lot of these conclusions because of your
own journey with anxiety. Can you tell us a little
bit about that. Yeah? Sure, um. Absolutely. One of the
reasons that in my professional life, I guess that I
like working with women um and anxiety so much is
just because I've experienced anxiety since I can remember. I
mean like a little girl. Um, I remember like laying
(05:22):
in a top bunk with my sister and you know,
asking her if the house was going to burn down. Um,
I think that you know, someone was going to kidnap
me or whatever that was. I remember having stomach aches
a lot, and we didn't really know why. UM, so
a lot of anxiety even as a kid, But at
that time we didn't really realize, like you know, this
(05:43):
was anxiety. It was just like normal, This is just
how Jesse is, right, so, you know. So we didn't
really pick up on that until much later in my
life when I was in college and started learning more
about psychology and anxiety, and then even more specifically when
I got to my master's program. Um, those programs are
the best because you learn a ton but you're also
(06:05):
required to do like a ton of self reflection. It's
like your own kind of therapy. So I think I
learned a lot about obviously anxiety and how to treat it,
but also how does this actually affect my life and
what does it look like for me? Um? And so yeah, absolutely,
there's worries that are different, you know, every day. It's
(06:29):
not like there's one specific worry all the time. It seems,
you know that I'm a little bit older and have kids.
I would say a lot of my worries tend to
be around my kids, making sure they're okay and you know,
bad things are going to happen. So that's where my
anxiety has kind of, I think evolved. But at this
point in my life it doesn't get in the way
(06:49):
of me doing my everyday things. I'm able to manage
my anxiety in a pretty healthy way at this point.
So that's a benefit that I've learned kind of through
my schooling and working with it so much. Yeah, it's
interesting because you did school and you are a therapist,
and so you I would think that you would be
(07:09):
the one saying, now you need to go to therapy
every week and you need to be doing this, But
actually in this book, you you mentioned that you really
want to give people the tools so that they can
take that into their real life and they're not just
having to sit in a therapy session every week without
making any sort of strides towards relief from this anxiety. Right. Yeah,
(07:31):
So yeah, I do you know, I counsel people four
days a week, and I would say a majority of
these people that I'm doing therapy with having anxiety. And
I think going to see a counselor is a great,
great thing and can have so many benefits. But the
reality is, just like what we were talking about women
in today's society, the reality is is that we don't
(07:51):
all have the time, money, or resources to get into
see our therapist, right right, So I really wanted to
create something where women who weren't having that experience could
still have a relatable way, in an easy way to
kind of get treatment and help as many women as
(08:13):
I possibly could. So, so the book is called Conquer
Anxiety in ten Weeks. It's a guide book for overwhelmed
women who dared to be fearless, which I love that statement.
Can you give us a summary of what this book is. Yeah,
So the book kind of is broken up into sections. UM.
(08:33):
When I was thinking about this book and wanting to
write it, UM, I wanted it to be um as
close to what I could do in therapy, like book
version of that, right, So I broke it up into
sections week by weeks. So the beginning of the book
just talks a lot about education about what anxiety is
and where that comes from and how it affects women today.
(08:55):
But then it goes through and talks about ten different weeks.
At each week you're learning a new skill, and at
the end of that chapter you have an activity that
you're supposed to be practicing for that week. UM. And
so the book is meant to be read in chronological order,
so not to be like skipping around UM. And it's
(09:16):
also meant for you to take your time, so sometimes
you might grasp a week like sooner or it's easier
for you than maybe a different week, But I still
don't want you to jump ahead that you're still just
taking that full week to really understand that skill so
that you can apply it to your life without needing
the book. That makes total sense. And I told you
(09:38):
just before we started this podcast. But I don't want
to go through all the details of the books because
because I just think it's a great read that for
anyone who's struggling with anxiety to just go out and
get it. But I do want to touch on some
of what you just mentioned and kind of just why
this method works. So let's just talk through Like the
first chapter, for instance, is about educating yourself about an anxiety,
(10:00):
which I think I am a person who I like
to read about this stuff a lot, so I just
would have thought that was normal. But do a lot
of people not even really understand what anxiety is? Yeah? Yes, Um,
there are plenty of people that I'm seeing in my office,
UM that like to me either describing like exactly what
(10:23):
an anxiety disorder might look like, and they have no
idea that that's what they're experiencing. Um. And also there
are you know, there's a lot of different types of
anxiety disorders. But the other thing that I see too
is that people will come in and they'll they'll be
almost scared to tell me stuff because they think that
I'm going to think, you know, they're quote unquote crazy,
(10:43):
or that I'm going to have to admit him to
a hospital, or I'm going to say that they're not
fit to have their kids. And then it's like the
more we start talking about these things, they're like, oh
my gosh, Jesse, this is normal. Yeah, this is anxiety,
and you know, maybe thick anxiety disorders or whatever. But yeah, absolutely,
there are a lot of people that don't even realize
(11:04):
that what they're struggling with is actually anxiety. Well, you
mentioned two main anxiety disorders in the book, right, can
you talk through those? Yeah? So this so why I
specify in this book that there's these two anxiety disorders,
generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder is because there
are more appropriate UM treatment methods for say things like
(11:29):
o c D or trauma like PTSD related things. Um,
So this book is really really geared more towards the
generalized anxiety and the socialized anxiety disorder, philth you want
I can go through and just kind of talk to
you a little bit about you know, as a clinician,
what do we look for when we're diagnosing these things. Yeah,
I think that would be helpful because I'm sure a
(11:50):
lot of people listening might be like the people who
walk into your office and they have all these symptoms
that they just don't understand that that is a normal
thing and that's just anxiety, right. Yes, So, um, when
clinicians you come into a clinician's office, they are looking
for specific criteria that you might be talking about that
would be able to kind of give you a diagnosis
(12:11):
of an anxiety disorder. So, for generalized anxiety disorder, what
we're looking for is that we have excessive and uncontrollable
worries about a lot of different events or areas in
your life that they may be feeling restless or on edge,
maybe feeling fatigued, have difficulty concentrating, experiencing irritability, muscle tension,
(12:33):
and sleep disturbances. So it doesn't have to be all
of those things, but um, if you're experiencing at least
three or more of those kind of symptoms, and this
is happening more often than not, You're probably struggling with
an anxiety disorder. So I thought that was interesting, the
part about UM not being able to concentrate, because I
(12:55):
think in some cases I associate my anxiety and I've
dealt with anxiety from is my life as well. But
with that like heavy heartbeat or like with a panic
when I can't go to sleep at night, those kind
of feelings, but that inability to concentrate, sometimes I'm just like,
what's wrong with me? Like why can't I get my
work done? Or why are the why is this taking
me so long? Or why can't I remember remember my
(13:18):
to do list? And what you say in the book
is that can often be associated with high anxiety. Yes,
it can and can often look like other disorders, like
for example, like xactly, I get that a lot like
I'm struggling with a d h D and come to
find out it's probably a lot more of anxiety related
(13:39):
things because absolutely UM lack of concentration and memory can
be affected by anxiety. So interesting, Okay, so then what's
the other the other anxiety disorder you mentioned? Yeah, so
then the other anxiety disorder that the book mentions is
a social anxiety disorder. So social anxiety disorder UM is
revolved obviously and more around social situations. UM. They used
(14:04):
to call us or another name for it would be
like a social phobia. UM. So it's when an individual's
experiencing high levels of anxiety in social situations where specifically
they will be exposed to like possible scrutiny by others. Um.
The biggest fear with the social anxiety disorder is that
I'm going to be viewed in a way that's going
(14:24):
to negatively impact me or embarrass me. I'm going to
say something or do something stupid or look silly or
in some way be negatively UM viewed by someone and
ultimately possibly rejected by these people. Do you often see
them happening together or that people suffer from both disorders
or is it more separate? UM? I think it could
(14:49):
be either. UM. I don't know that I necessarily see
them more together or not together, but you they certainly
can be co occurring. Okay. Interesting. So once you educate yourself,
you talk about the biggest key being just acceptance, and
I think that's I mean, that's the biggest key to
a lot of life, right, but why is acceptance of
(15:13):
just accepting your reality and all of in the current
moment and all of those feelings. Why is that so important? Yeah,
that's a great question because I think when I start like, okay,
so that's two of the book and people are kind
of like, what, like, this is what I'm doing too,
I thought I was gonna be jumping into all these things.
But I really kind of argue that probably acceptance is
(15:34):
one of the most important skills that you can learn
with your anxiety, because if we can't first accept what
it is that we're struggling with and dealing with it,
we can't see it clearly. Right. We tend to them
be like, no, that's not anxiety, or I'm fine, or
no I don't need anything. Right. So if we don't
first kind of accept and say, oh, I might be
(15:56):
struggling with anxiety and you know, I'm actually not doing okay,
we don't actually start looking at the steps that we
need and to take in order to start managing in
a healthy way. So go ahead and sorry, no, yeah,
I was just gonna say, so, that's why I feel
like the anxiety of the acceptance piece is so so important. Yeah,
why is that our nature to want to be like no, fine,
(16:19):
or this is an exactly what what makes acceptance so hard,
I think because we have a lot of misconceptions about
what acceptance means. So acceptance only means that we are
seeing what's happening in this current moment and realizing that, hey,
(16:40):
I don't have a ton of control over this right now.
It just is what it is. It's neither good nor bad.
But when you say that to someone, acceptance has all
these negative terms that go with it, like you're giving up,
or you're weak, or what you're experiencing is okay, or
maybe what someone did you was okay. So we have
(17:01):
maybe these negative connotations to that word acceptance that it
means if I accept this, then there's something wrong with me,
right When in reality, what you say in the book
is acceptance means accepting reality in the current moment. That's
it just as it is. This is what's happening. You
don't have to like it, but this is what's happening exactly.
(17:21):
I think that's such a big part of our society that,
I mean, I do this. I'm very guilty of this too.
But we don't want life to be painful, right, so
it's it's hard, I think. I know for me, I
can only speak for myself, but I want to do
anything I can to avoid pain in most cases. And
then and that's just not realistic because there are things
that are going to happen in our life if you're
(17:43):
actually living life, that are going to be painful, and
to try to wish it away it's just really unrealistic.
But that's kind of your whole point in this process,
and especially the acceptance piece, is that you can learn
tools to help you get through those painful, inevitable moments
in life. Yes, absolutely, And it makes sense because when
(18:05):
we're being hurt or like, anxiety is service. So if
you feel like we're in danger in some way, even
if it's just perceived fear, our reaction is protection, right, So,
and like to avoid and like I shouldn't feel that way,
so we want to kind of like avoid that. But yeah,
the reality is that life is not meant to be
pain free and that actually a lot of experiences in
(18:29):
life require anxiety, and that anxiety is actually the very
healthy response to that situation, right. I know, for me,
the hard thing is is like if you've been through
something painful, you're this is what I say to myself,
like haven't had enough yet? Like I feel like in
some ways I've had There's been situations where I'm like, yep,
I'm like done with pain now, you know. Yeah, but
(18:49):
that actually produces a lot more anxiety when I'm trying
to live life because it's it's just completely unrealistic. So
after you talk about the acceptance piece, you go into
my mindfulness. Why is this important? I found this chapter
very very interesting. Oh, um, I I love mindfulness personally. Um.
(19:11):
I think mindfulness is just a great tool and skill
to learn just for our daily lives. So just practicing
mindfulness once a day, even when you're not feeling anxious,
just help ground and kind of read juvenated us is
such a good thing. Um. But specifically when treating anxiety,
mindfulness is so great because, for one, if we can
(19:33):
approach a situation mindfully, staying in this current moment and
not projecting into the future of all these terrible things
that are going to happen. But if we can stay mindfully,
we can see the path and like what we need
to get better through that, um. And also like the
key to mindfulness is again that I'm purposely staying present
(19:57):
in the here and now with awareness on like what's
going on around me and within me. So, if you
take that definition of mindfulness, anxiety is the exact opposite
of mindfulness. Right. So when I ask people, typically when
you're experiencing anxiety, are your thoughts past, present, or future oriented?
(20:18):
Most of the time I'm getting past in future right,
So not very often are we ever experiencing anything in
this moment right now that anxiety is helpful for us.
So if we can take that mindfulness and come back
to the present moment and say, okay, wait is that
thing happening right now and say no, it's not, so
(20:38):
I'll deal with it when I get there. So you
mentioned that mindfulness can be learned, and even listening to
you describe it right now, I was thinking, gosh, I
truly live so much in my head and a lot
in the past and a lot in the future, like
you said, So, how can we learn how to be mindful?
That's a good question. Um. I think mindfulness, like I said,
(21:02):
it is absolutely a practice. So it's something that when
we're trying to learn, Um, I mean truthfully, when I
first started learning about mindfulness, I hated it. I didn't
understand it. I didn't like it. I didn't understand why
the people were, you know, trying to get me to
do this, um. But the reality was I wasn't understanding
(21:23):
it correctly. So in my idea it was that mindfulness
I needed to have a blank mind, so like almost
a white piece of paper, right, But the reality of
their mind doesn't really work that way. So it's not
so much about having a blank mind as it is
just not getting lost in our thoughts. So if a
thought comes up, I acknowledge it and I'm aware of it,
(21:44):
but I allow it to pass. Um. So mindfulness is
definitely a practice, something that you should start doing, just
even a little bit each day. And then there are
different like activities I guess you could say that could
help you practice getting in that state of mind until
you get to be maybe a little bit better. Where
you hear people are like meditating for hours of the day, right, Yeah,
(22:07):
I mean meditation is one thing I've specifically struggled with
and I don't know what it is. I dread it
every time I goes to sit down to do it. Um.
I do also think I have a lot of judgment,
which you talk about in the book to not have
judgment on yourself. It's not about clearing your mind or
you know, anything like controlling the thoughts that are coming in,
but just recognizing what is coming in and releasing it,
(22:30):
like you say, which is a huge practice for most
people when they start to learn to meditate. Yes, absolutely,
and that again mindfulness. One of the key components of
mindfulness is approaching it with um being non judgmental. So
that's a big thing. So like when you're sitting there
and you're meditating, and then all of a sudden you
realize maybe for the last minute you've been thinking about
(22:52):
all the stuff I have to do at work tomorrow. Um,
we don't judge ourselves. And god, I can't even meditate,
you know, I'm so terrible at this. Don't just gently
bring our mind back to our awareness of like the
present current moment. Maybe that's your breath, or maybe that's
the feeling of your you know, legs if you're sitting
on the floor, whatever that looks like. But it's just
(23:12):
like a gentle bringing back trying to approach it with
without judgment. Well, the next big portion of the book
UM breaks down the difference between rational and irrational thought,
And it made me think, how much is of my
anxiety is actually just irrational thought? So how much of
(23:34):
our anxiety are we just making up in our head? Well,
so I would say that for people that are struggling
with you know, true anxiety disorders, and we're experiencing anxiety
when anxiety isn't helpful, most of those thoughts are irrational.
So what do you mean when the anxiety isn't helpful?
(23:55):
So there are situations in life that anxiety is the
appropriate response, and it actually allows us to be more successful. Um.
For example, this is just like a basic example. But
let's say, um, you know, in college or you know,
high school, whatever that is, you have a test tomorrow
(24:16):
and you feel anxious about that. Well, having a little
bit of that anxiety in that situation is probably very
appropriate because if you fear that you're going to fail,
you're more likely to study and do better. Right, So
for something like that, anxiety may be appropriate. Um. Now,
when we are experiencing anxiety and we're worried about what
(24:37):
so and so thinks about us that I'm going to
see tonight, that's not helpful for me, right, Like, that's
not in any way making me better or making me
perform better. That's irrational thought, right, That's what I would
call mind reading. Well, you also there's a part of
the activity. I don't remember it's specifically on this chapter
(24:58):
or not, but you have a chart that kind of
breaks down this is what's happening, what is the reality? Um?
Is that actually true? Like you say the yes and knows.
I can't remember the exact breakdown on the chart, but
that that activity in and of itself, just asking yourself,
like what part of that is true? Because for me,
(25:21):
I don't even I think the you know, the mindfulness.
All that stuff is obviously the first steps, because you
have to recognize what you're feeling. But like specifically, when
you mentioned what someone's thinking about you, like, we don't
know what other people are thinking, so you have to
actually ask yourself, is this actually happening or is this
just happening in my head? Absolutely? Yeah, So we kind
of um kind of talk about to um the different
(25:43):
cognitive distortions that people typically engage in, and so sometimes too,
if you get good at recognizing that, you can label
it and say, oh, I'm totally mind reading right now.
That is also another really good way to check to
see if that's a rational spot, because if you know
you're engaging in a cognitive story action, it's not a
rational thought. Probably something that we need to restructure. Um.
(26:04):
But otherwise, Yeah, you're going through and you're just you're
asking yourself where you know these thoughts are present? Is
there evidence that supports these thoughts. If there is evidence
that's supporting those thoughts, then that's probably telling you that
your emotional response is appropriate for that situation. If, on
the other hand, which is probably more likely that there's
(26:25):
not any evidence that's supporting those thoughts, they ask more
than likely telling us, Okay, this anxiety isn't helpful for
me right now. I can restructure these thoughts or practice
a different coping skill to help manage this. Okay, we've
mentioned a couple of times that you have these activities
at the end of each chapter, and you really, you know,
suggest that people put these into practice for a week
(26:46):
at a time before they move on to the next chapter.
What do you feel is beneficial about having an actual
practice versus doing just weeks and weeks and years and
years of just talk therapy. Well, I think there's a
couple a couple of things. Um. The reason that I
(27:06):
specifically like to give an activity to be practicing for
that week is, for one, it creates um some accountability. Right,
So like if you're supposed to be working on this thing,
it's going to be something that Okay, I gotta you know,
I have to focus on that today. I have to
focus on that today. And that's one way that this
is going to be develop a routine kind of throughout
(27:28):
your life. Um. The other thing is that we learn
best by doing two ways of learning. So maybe you're reading,
but then also you're writing. Yeah, so that's a really
good way to learn whatever the skill is for that week,
for it to really sink in. Yeah, yeah, that makes
total sense. Um, you just mentioned that putting things into
(27:53):
practice because you know this isn't going to go away.
That's the thing about anxiety. It's similar to the pain thing.
Like if you suffer from an anxiety disorder, the chances
are you're going to feel anxiety again at some point
in your life. You're not just going to get fixed
if you do enough therapy or you read this book
or anything like that. But it is about putting things
into practice, especially when things come up and you get
(28:15):
triggered because that's the thing, right, Like, none of this
is just going to go away, right, And that's actually
one of the you know, big things that I talked
about in the book, and that the book book does
not claim to cure anxiety because we have not found
to cure for anxiety right now. Even the best of
medication just helps us manage anxiety, doesn't actually cure it.
(28:37):
So unfortunately, Yeah, if you're a person who tends to
be a little bit more anxious and struggles with anxiety,
that's probably something that's going to continue to come up
in different parts of your life. And will notice that
there's some periods of time when like, oh we're great,
um and this anxiety is like super will and then
there's periods of our life where anxiety is really high.
(28:58):
So yeah, that's it's good to have these skills so
that you have them, you practice them, you're good at them,
so that when that anxiety comes up again, you're like, Okay,
I got this right. How has your anxiety changed over
the years. Well, I would say that kind of like
I said, sometimes I think what I hear myself and
also other people is sometimes the content changes. So obviously
(29:23):
I'm not like worried about the house burning down anymore,
things like that. Like the content has definitely changed. Um.
But I would say most of the time now, I'm
not having long periods of anxiety anymore. UM. So there
are definitely things that come up that make me feel anxious,
and I get that. For me, it's like a drop
(29:43):
in my stomach. UM, And I still experience that sometime.
Unfortunately for me, I'm one of the people that if
I am feeling a lot of anxiety, I also get
images associated with that. So it's not just a physical
feeling of anxiety, it's I see it happening. It's like
a movie in my brain right and so that is
very distressful at times. But I notice it doesn't last
(30:05):
for very long anymore. So it peaks and then it
very quickly goes away because I'm taking care of it
right away, and you probably recognize it quicker. Yes. Interesting.
The book is Conquer Anxiety in ten weeks. Jesse Jensen,
thank you so much for being here, UM, thank you
so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Where
can people find you so they can't follow me on
(30:29):
Instagram at Jesse Jensen Therapy UM and then I also
have my website and where the UM book is posted
is Insight Counseling Services WI dot com Insight Counseling Services.
You guys, go check it out. I truly recommend this book.
It's an easy read, it's very quick, and the activities
(30:50):
are super helpful. I've actually started to put some into
practice myself. So and thank you Jesse. Yes, you're very welcome.
I'm so happy to hear that. All right, thank you again,
and thank you guys for listening. H m hm
Host
Kelly Henderson
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