July 25, 2025 • 40 mins
Grief comes in all forms—and it’s not just about losing someone. In this episode, Kelly and Chip get honest (and a little unhinged) about the messy, weird, and very real ways grief has shown up in their lives. From heartbreaks and identity shifts to the quiet losses no one talks about, they explore how our culture often skips past grief—and why that doesn’t really work. With their usual mix of humor and heart, they share what’s helped them move through it, what definitely hasn’t, and why healing isn’t one-size-fits-all. If you’ve ever felt like you were doing grief “wrong,” this is your reminder: you’re not.
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HOSTS:
Kelly Henderson // @velvetsedge // velvetsedge.com
Chip Dorsch // @chipdorsch
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, Chip, Hello here. That's really lovely today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You know what's funny is I have aw This is
like bad hair. Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Sometimes I feel like your bad hair is your best hair.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I know. That's why I got to keep it nice
and short, because it's when the sides are awful after
bad hair.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, gets a little mushroomy for you. How do you
think I look.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Well, we've been chatting for a minute, and your face
is less red.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh that is interesting. So I told Chip before we recorded,
I may look a little crazy. When we got on
the recording and we first got on, he was like,
oh whoa, oh.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yeah right, red like sunburn red.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, it feels like a sunburn. I had two laser
treatments today. I did the bb L laser and the
moxy right after. And I'm going to post my documentation
of this process once I kind of get through it.
Because so I'm at this weird age right like I
just turned forty three, and as a girl, you're kind
of in the place where you're like, I've been doing botox.
(01:02):
I've been doing all this stuff. And then I started
to realize, like I didn't like the way it was
looking anymore. And I'm also like almost craving more natural now,
Like the more makeup you do, the more shit you do,
almost makes you look worse as you get older, you know.
And so I'm in this weird in between being like
(01:23):
definitely older and being young to where I'm trying to
figure out my new process, I guess. So I had
heard a lot about these two lasers, and I went
in to see these girls just to try them because
I'm like, Okay, well I do want to work on
my skin. So basically what I'm working on with this
is sun spots, evening out skin tone, fine lines, and wrinkles.
(01:45):
I don't know, I'm just gonna see. I read, you know,
I read mixed views. Some people are like doing lasers
is a waste of time, and then some people swear
by them. So I have to just try everything myself
to figure out how I feel about it. So I'll
keep you guys posted. But it's been interesting. Aging is weird,
Like we kind of talk about this when you're, you know,
coming up on fifty, but like, have you noticed like
each year that passes, I feel like I'm having all
(02:09):
these new awarenesses and I'm stepping into like a new
version of myself. Slowly every year. Do you feel like
that at all? Or am I just like going a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I feel like the pressure for aging for women is
very different than men, true, I mean in the gay community,
it's probably more similar to women. There are changes that
I'm going through that I recognize, but I'm fighting very
hard to like continue to feel like a twenty year old,
you know, like yeah, just mentally.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
That's so interesting because I think I'm doing the opposite
right right. I'm like, there, you couldn't pay me to
go back to my twenties. And I'm also trying I
mean physically, of course, I see, you know. I was
on a shoot with Tucker Wetmore this week, and like
he's just so adorable. I just love him so much.
But he's young, you know, and so all the p
(03:00):
in the video with him, we're all young. And I'm
looking at these kids and I'm like, they're all gorgeous,
Like yeah, they're just kight. Their bodies are tight, like
they look so good. And I just truly feel because
like even his management team everything, I'm the old person
in this crew, like, you know, everyone's younger, and so
it's just really interesting because I have been in the
(03:20):
other position for so many years, and now I'm like, oh,
I'm getting to be the one that's been around the
long time, and like that's older than everyone else, which
obviously I know I'm not old, but like just being
in that company, I kind of felt like I'm the
old fart here, Like I don't go out after you know,
just like.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
We're like, who's that lady, Yeah, ma'am, yeah, ma'am, yes, ma'am. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I mean Tucker is very much respectful like that to me,
and I'm like, oh my god, I don't know that
he does that, but yeah, it's basically like, let me
take care of the lady over here. But anyway, I
just find even watching them though, I'm like, I love
how excited they are. I love being around that energy.
It's so lovely with work. And also, you couldn't pay
(04:05):
me to go back, Like I so the lessons that
I've learned since being in that period in my life,
you couldn't pay me to go through them again. Like right,
It's just I know what they have ahead of them maybe,
and so I'm like just sitting back kind of observing
right from a place of like how fun with that guys?
So there's that like, I don't know what you're talking
about with this, like you wanted to be in your
(04:26):
twenties again. I'm like, what, Well, it's.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Not that I want to be in my twenties, it's
that I don't want to feel old. So I mean,
i'll give you an example. I went and saw cold
Play the other night, and the show was amazing, But
it's a million degrees in Nashville right now, and you
put eighty thousand people in a stadium or however many
people it is.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh, was it at Nissan.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
It was at Nissan, so it's outside and you've just
got more like bodies that are moving and dancing and
screaming that just make it even hotter. And it was like, ooh,
there was like I'm sure some people did, but there
was like occasionally there was like a little bit of
a breeze, but like for the most part, there was
not a breeze at all. And then I went to
the after party, good gush, and I didn't really have
(05:06):
many drinks the whole time, but it was just like
I was like out late doing things that like I
did all the time when I was in my twenties
of course, and thirties and the next day I wasn't hungover,
I was just exbeded. Yeah, I was like, I can't mind.
I just don't recover in the same way. And so
I recognize those things. So I think I probably have
(05:28):
to make some decisions moving forward based on that information,
where it's like I can still go to the show,
but I don't need to be at the after party. No.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
If I start to see my clock and it's eleven
and I'm out a panic, I'm like, cause it's like
I don't want to be out past, Like I don't
want to be not in bed by the latest midnight,
you know, Like I'm getting in bed at like nine nowadays,
Like I just maybe i'll watch a show. It's like
I'm going to bed, but like I don't know, I
really value sleep. My body can't bounce back like you
(06:00):
I said, like I would have been down for like
two or three days from that. It feels like it is.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I mean, it's the recovery is real, you know, It's
it is not easy. So there are those things, and
then you know, looking at my skin and the looseness
and the wrinkles and all those things. But I'm just
I try to ignore it too, I mean not in
an healthy way. Like if I see a spot that
I'm like concerned about, I'm.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Like, you try not to hate on yourself for it,
I think is what you're Yeah, And I think that's
what I'm saying about. Like I haven't I've been trying
to not do botox anymore, and I don't know that
I'll go back to it or not go back to it.
I haven't made my decision, but I wanted everything that
I had to be like out of my face before
I made a decision again. And so I have been
doing that and it's like my forehead moves. This is
(06:44):
going to sound crazy to sell me O, I'm sure,
but like I think a lot of people might relate
to my forehead moves now. And I have like wrinkles,
you know, And at first I freaked out about that,
which made me be really question myself. And because now
I'm looking at my face and I'm like, I actually
just look normal, Like this is what we're supposed to live, right,
And I think it's great to, you know, take care
(07:04):
of yourself. And that's why I wanted to do this
laser because I do have some sun damage that's really
starting to show more, and so I want to get
ahead of that because I'm a makeup artist, Like I
know what that looks like as you just let it
go on. But at the same time, I do want
to be kinder to myself and like try to be
in more acceptance of like I've lived some life and
like there's a lot that comes with aging that's beautiful too,
(07:28):
and so I don't want to just be like this
person that's feeling less than or hating on myself. Even
trying to keep up with the Jones is like what
I think our culture kind of like makes us feel
like we have to do. Like I do feel like
there should be some beauty in this process that I'm
really trying to embrace. So anyway, I'll keep you guys
posted on the laser. But I told you this like
(07:49):
connection between this topic and our topic that we're going
to talk about today, and I actually think they do
tie in together in some weird way. But as a
part of this like aging that I'm talking about, do
you think you go through experiences in life? And like
my podcast on Wednesday was with John Stilim Paris, and
he wrote this book called The Magic and the tragic,
(08:10):
and he really is trying to reframe the conversation about grief,
and one of the main things he says is like,
I think a lot of people try to show up
in this life and pretend that they're not going to
go through a period of grief, and like there's not
one person on this planet that is going to escape
the grief process. Like you don't have to do grieving
(08:31):
in a way that you know, you can stuff it
or whatever, but like you're gonna go through things that hurt.
That's part of life. And right, I think if you
believe anything spiritual, you probably have some sort of insight
into like the whys of what that happens. And I
always try to look at it as like what is
this here to teach me? Like how can I grow
even through the pain? And we talked about this on Wednesday,
(08:52):
But like some of the most painful experiences of my life.
As much as I fucking hate when people say, like
you'll look back and be grateful for this, I do
because of what the process brought me to within myself,
you know, And I couldn't have gotten there. Like I
don't think we grow without pain. I really don't yeah,
why would you, like, if life's going great, why are
(09:13):
you going to do anything to change it?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Well? And it's funny because if you think about the verse,
when you're trying to avoid grief, how that stunts your growth?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It totally does?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know, It's like you're choosing to not grow by
you know, trying to avoid grief.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Right, Like when you see the older people that you
feel are really emotionally immature, that's probably what it is.
Like we're trying to avoid the hard feelings, but nobody
likes to do it right, Like it's not like you go, oh,
you know, what I want to do today is go
through something really hard, So I have to go through
process Like it's not fun, So of course we want
to avoid it. I think that's like a natural human thing.
(09:48):
But you and I were talking before the podcast of
just like how do we reframe our mindset around grief
and try to look at the beautiful things that can
come from that process us or the gift of grief,
and also really removing the shame that comes around, like
how long that process can take or even like the
(10:11):
lifelong journey that it can be. I know we had
said maybe we should share some of our personal journey
and experiences with grief, and like what that's taught us?
Do you want to stay well?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, it's funny because it's obviously you can grieve
grief effects or as a result, I guess, or is
a byproduct of a lot of things. Like the most
obvious is a breakup or a death or a loved one.
But we're talking about like our youth, like grieving the
loss of that, or the loss of a job, or
the loss of a friendship, the loss of a pet.
(10:42):
And I've experienced a lot of grief in my life.
I mean I lost my best friend Whise in third grade,
and you know, as a third grader, it's like you
really I had pneumonia at the time, and I thought
I was going to die next Like I didn't understand death. Really,
I didn't understand grief. My best friend his name was Evan,
and there's not a day that goes by that I
(11:03):
don't think about him. And I've got a picture of
him in my house, you know, And it's like I
was in third grade, I was a kid, but I'll
never forget him. And I was sick at home with
pneumonia and it was my He died on my sister's
birthday and she was having a slumber party and this
girl named Beth was there who had never met Evan,
and she went through a whole box of tissues, just
(11:24):
bawling her eyes out, and me, I didn't know how
to experience it. And so it's funny like looking back
on it, like the freedom that she felt to breathe
in front of us, where I didn't know what to do.
You know, that's really interests that, like everyone's got it
sort of a different approach or a relationship with grief
(11:46):
because I'm like the sort of an ultra positive person
I try to. I mean, it's probably like meet without
me realizing it, and as I'm saying it, I'm opening
myself up to it. Like I think I tried to
push it down by by finding the beauty in it
rather than just like sitting in the darkness of it,
(12:07):
because I'm not comfortable in that space. But like I
you know, at my grandmother's wedding, she wedding funeral, My
grandmother was my best friend growing up, you know, like
I was so close to her and I was like
all of our grand all of her grandchildren will tell
you that I was her favorite. I'm proudly that, and
I spoke at her funeral like I was not going
(12:28):
to allow my grief to keep me from letting that
room know how important she was to me.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, I still have what I wrote, like, and I've
read through it since, and I can't believe I was
able to get up and say that many words, you know.
But I think my strength and my love for her
allowed me to do that. But I also don't know
that I've ever properly grieved her death in the way
that like it seems necessary for someone that important in
(12:55):
your life, and you know, I don't know where that
comes from. Like it's so there's some the programming for
my family. I like never saw my dad crying when
I was you know, he was like a tough man, like.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
In general, I think, y'ah, I taught.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
That, Yeah, even with like breakups, like I also never
want a burden in anybody, you know, Like that is
the last thing I want to do is to be
a burden to anyone. I want to be helpful and
bring joy. And so I think part of me has
turned off that grieving knob. But I have also learned
(13:30):
that as I've gotten older in life. Even in like
short relationships, like I have a hard time letting them
just end because I don't know if it's the avoidance
of grief or me trying to like smooth it over
and make it really easy for the other person, or
trying to find the good in the person. When red
(13:51):
flags present themselves, I often don't want to see them,
and so then after it's over, I don't know that
I would recognize it as grief, but I think about
it for much longer than I need to, And I
don't know necessarily know that I talk about it like
I shure ye, but I do think about it. So
maybe that is my version of grief. And I think
(14:12):
it probably has a lot just to do with the
household that I grew up in, you know, Yeah, don't
be a cry baby. I know those sorts of things.
And it's like I was a very very sensitive kid.
Like the first time I went hunting, I killed two
squirrels with the gun I'd been given for Christmas. Yeah,
and I was so proud of myself. This is a
(14:33):
little morbid, but like my dad cut the tails off
and like gave me the tails, Like I was a
Davy Crockett or some shit, and my parents are like
where they were trying to find it, and I was
up in my room petting the tails, balling my eyes
out and vowed to never go hunting again. Like that
was the kind of kid I was, And if I
ever lied to my mom or my dad like an
(14:55):
hour later, I would be like bawling and telling them
the truth. And I was really sensitive and not afraid
to cry. Yeah, But I feel like the older I've gotten,
I've hardened, and society has said that's not what you're
supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
And I don't know that you've hardened. I think you've
trained yourself not to like allow that to come out
or definitely not in public to Christ.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But I think I can't remember the last time I
had a really good cry, like yeah, and I understand
the importance of it, like, and I would like to
think that I'm not ashamed of it. I just somewhere
I like closed that box, yes, And I mean that
is it is a shame lock that is on it,
you know. Yeah, even just having this conversation, it's like
I should say out loud to give myself the permission
(15:41):
to like feel those hard feelings whenever I need to,
because they don't escape.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Like you put them into something else.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
There's something Yeah, it's something else. And and I think
that there's also something really beautiful about the idea of
like owning your grief and taking it and turning it
into something else. But you have to recognize it first. Yeah, yeah,
you have to write, you have to sit with it
and recognize it first. And I find this conversation to
(16:10):
be really interesting because otherwise I don't think I would
have ever thought about it.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Well, so I'm hoping that opens the door for some
other people to sort of think about it.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I'm actually really glad that you're telling exactly what it
looks like for you, because you said one thing to
you where you were like, you know, in my family,
we said just be strong. And what's so interesting to
me about that statement is I actually believe that people
who allow themselves to feel the hard feelings are the strongest.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The strongest.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, and we have somehow gotten that mixed up in
our society where we think that you not feeling or
not looking weak or vulnerable, that's strong. That's not strong.
That's not strong. To me, truly, that is one of
the things as I've gotten older, when I see that
in a person, I don't view that as strong. To me,
If anything, it looks more weak. What is really strong
(17:08):
is the people who go face their shit like that
is hard work. It is allowing yourself to go to
the depths like you're talking about, like allowing yourself to
feel the hard feelings, to go to the deep places,
to cry, to be angry, to be an acceptance of that.
That is so much strength. Like what I've observed so
(17:28):
many people in all the work that I've done, and
like I've done a lot of group therapy too, and
like witnessing someone doing that process, I will have the
most respect for those people that I walked through those
journeys with for the rest of my life because like,
to me, I'm like, that is a strong ass person. Yeah,
the person who can meet themselves in the darkest places.
That is strong and to not turn into an asshole
(17:51):
because you go through something hard like, those are the
strong people. But the wats who come out kinder or
that like use it as a growth opportunity or whatever, Like,
I have more respect for that than for anyone that
just like diminishes the feelings and pretends like they're not there.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, totally. I mean I struggle with hard conversations. I
worry and ponder and create scenarios in my mind when
I have to have a hard conversation and I work
really hard to figure out how to soften the conversation.
But every time I have a hard conversation, it's like,
I pre grieve the result and I but the freedom
(18:28):
that you feel after you've just done it is unbelievable.
So it's not the same thing as like recognizing grief
and like really dealing and like digging in and dealing
with it. But I do think it's a It is
a proof that going to dark places and doing hard
(18:49):
things in the moment sucks to have to do it.
But what the way that it sets you free afterwards
is the growth. And I think I think if you
can think of grieving in that way and allowing that
grief to sort of drown you for a minute, on
the other side of that is the knowledge that you
(19:10):
know that moment is supposed to bring to you.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You just said that so perfectly like that that is
exactly what it is, because I probably the way I
just said it, it was like really harsh. I don't mean
it like, oh, you fucking weak ass person.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
No, I think they're a really good example. I think
I think that made perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
But I also think that a lot of times we
don't know how to grieve like that is. That's a
thing that I do like about this book is that
he really kind of talks about some of the things
you can do and the beauty you can find. And
I told him on the podcast, like, if you guys
haven't listened, I'll kind of just repeat the story, but like,
definitely go listen, because I found this to be very
(19:48):
cathartic as well. But it was like, thinking through the
times where I've grieved, one of the main things that
pops to my head is like that life just slows down, right,
because then all of a sudden, when you go through
something hard, you look at the shit that you worry
about every day and you're like, why is that the
thing that drives me crazy every day? It doesn't matter,
you know, like everything just becomes less in our day
(20:09):
to day lives because that really hard thing has really
like broken you open to realize none of that stuff
really matters. And I told him, I'm like, my life
just slows down. And it's like when I go outside,
even like if I go sit on my front porch
or something. I remember the last time I was in
a really dark place, I was like, my neighbors probably
think I'm crazy because I didn't have a backyard set
(20:30):
up at all, and so I would sit on this
bench in my front yard and just watch people walk by.
But I like needed to be out of my house,
but I didn't really want to be around people or
go anywhere, you know, And I just was like sitting
there and I would notice the wind blowing through the leaves,
or the butterfly that landed on the plant in front
of me, or just like the noises of the birds,
Like everything just feels more visceral. I feel like like
(20:53):
in those periods of time, and when I would come
out of it, it was almost like I would crave
that connection with nature then again, or like the music
I had been listening to, it's like you just start
to notice. It's like your noticer gets turned way up right,
and that actually is beautiful, Like that's a beautiful part
of the human experience to me, to really realize how
(21:16):
much we're all connected. And I don't know that I
would ever have had those moments if I hadn't gone
through the hard times to give me that, Like, yo,
you need to stop for a second. And like the
shit that I would be worrying about for me to go,
I don't care at all about that right now, Like
that just doesn't matter at all, knowing that.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
We are just a speck of dust on this big,
huge universe. Yeah, it really is a reminder, and I
think it's a beautiful part of grief because it reminds
us that we're small and that these problems that we
think are so big aren't as big as they all are.
And what is important is that the people that are
(22:00):
around you that you love, and the things that you love,
and the beauty that like this is all around us,
those things are what's really important. And it does give
you time to pause. But you know, it's I can
only speak from my experience because I don't know what
it feels like for anyone else to grieve. But like
I feel like societally and the way that like corporate
(22:20):
America approaches it, like they're just like get back on
the horse, like we got shoes to sell. Yeah, we've
got shit that needs to get done. And the funny
thing is is like those few days that you are
out like that, shit still gets done. It's getting done
without you. Well yeah, but we are trained to believe
that the world is going to stop spending if we
(22:41):
don't do what we're supposed to do every day. So
I think culturally we all could use just a reset
and a reframe on the grace that we give ourselves
and the grace that we give others when they're going
through a really hard time.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Well, because we do have this connection of productivity to
worth right, and so if we stop or we can't
function like we normally are, then all of a sudden,
I think it's like we start to question who am I?
Without this stuff? And so that's a really interesting connection
to be faced with. But then it also really makes
(23:15):
you think, like, am I only the person that goes
to work every day? Is that the whole makeup of
who I am?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
It's not. So why wouldn't we allow ourselves the space
to not be okay or not be able to produce
at that same rate?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
You know?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Like I remember one of our friends had a mom.
His mom passed away a couple of years ago, and
it was devastating. She died in a car wreck, and
she was his best friend. They talked every day. I mean,
you and I were talking about this a little bit,
and I remember him talking about like getting work calls
during that time, and he was like, I know I
need to care, but I really can't make myself care
(23:52):
right now. Like it's really difficult for me to want
to show up and do this thing at work because
all I can think about is like, why does this
even matter? Like my best friend just died, my mom
just died, you know, Like that's what matters to me.
And I'm just trying to get out of bed every
day much less like this work process, like it just
(24:13):
doesn't seem important, and truthfully, it probably wasn't at the time.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Of course, we all have responsibilities, we have to pay
bills all the things. But it's like it is interesting
the guilt that we would put on ourselves. I was
telling another story about another friend we've had go through
a breakup and watching her go through the process of
like shaming herself to be over it, you know, and like,
I know I've done that to myself so many times,
and fortunately for me, my body doesn't work that way.
(24:38):
Like I'm too much of a feeler and I'm just
gonna be forced back into feeling even if I don't
want to be. But like the shame that comes with
it sometimes of like why am I not over this yet?
Like we're so mean to ourselves and that's not how
grief works. Like you were talking about, grief isn't linear.
It's like it's very much that quirkscrew process. What were
(24:58):
you talking about?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Was that? I mean when we started talking about the topic,
I'd just seen this today. It was Robin William's son
posted a few days ago and it got picked up
on a site that I follow because it was the end.
It would have been three days ago, it would have
been Robin William's seventy fourth birthday, and I had read
this and it struck me. When you sent me the topics,
(25:20):
I'll just read it. He posted today would have been
my dad's seventy fourth birthday. Every year, the season arrives
with gravity. In just sixty days, we passed through Father's Day,
his birthday, and the anniversary of his death. It's a
tender and complicated stretch of time, one that asks a
lot of the heart. For me. Grief isn't linear. I
think it's so the key part there is the for
(25:42):
me part. For me, grief isn't linear. It loops and
it echoes, it softens, then crescendos. But alongside it lives
a legacy, the kind built not from fame or recognition,
but from generosity and relentless kindness. My father lived to
make people feel seen. He gave permission to feel deeply
into laugh through the pain in his absence. That mission continues.
(26:03):
So today I hold close the idea that the best
way to honor those we love is to live with
the values they stood for, to lead with service and compassion,
to lift others when they're down, and to find the
paths are like even in the dark corners. To anyone
carrying loss right now, you are not alone. You are
part of a passage of love and connection that never
really ends. Happy birthday, Dad, Love you forever. Clearly he's
(26:26):
gone through some he's learned a lot from his grief,
but he's also not willing to let it go. And
I think the important thing to remember there is letting
it go is also letting that string of love that
still exists. For his father, it's like cutting it. It
is the grief is what connects them now, the memories,
(26:46):
the sadness that he's not there. Like, I'm still really
fortunate to have both of my parents, but like I
don't want to ever stop missing them when they're gone.
You know, Like that sounds like a really dark day. Yeah,
we all need to give ourselves a little bit more grace.
And I also think too, it's we need to look
at our friends and the ones that we love and
(27:09):
give them that space to grieve too, and know that
there it's not gonna it's never gonna end for them either.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So to acknowledge it, to allow it to be a process.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Too well, to keep those people alive in their minds too.
You know, It's like it doesn't have to be like
every day being like how are you today, they're like
putting them in a dark mood. You can just be
like I saw this, It made me think of your
mom or your dad or whatever, and like, don't make
it a shameful thing that someone has passed on in
(27:41):
their life, you know. Yeah, which is hard because we're
we are trained to be these non emotional robots.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And I think that's the thing, right, Nobody knows what
to say and I think that's one of the main
things that most people who go through something really hard,
like a death or it's just something tragic, one thing
I think they would say in common is like people
get uncomfortable and don't know what to say, and you know,
we do the thing where we're like, she's in a
better place or whatever, and that it's just such bullshit,
(28:10):
right because it's like not helpful. And so a lot
of times, like one of the things that I've done
when I'm around people who I know are going through
something hard that they've said thank you for later is
asking them what it feels like or how they are
or what can I say. I don't are just saying
I don't know what to say to you.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, I don't know what to say, dude. I this
reminds me in fifth grade.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Am I dude?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, okay, I was just.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
This is just occurring to me. When I was in
fifth grade, a girl named Jennifer in my class, her
father died on Christmas. He was a fisherman and died
in this car. And when I went back to school,
my grandmother had died earlier that year. I said to her,
I'm really sorry. I know how you feel. And she
looked at me and she said, you have no fucking
idea how I feel. And it was the wrong thing
(29:08):
to say, because I didn't know how she felt. I
was equating the same thing, but I hadn't lost my dad.
I didn't know how she felt.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
So it's moments like that too that probably you don't
want me not to know what to say. I don't
want to say the wrong thing, you know, it's and
then that is something that is ingrained in me. But
I the older I've gotten, the more like, you know,
you have to become comfortable with the idea of death,
because it's going to happen to all of us. I
lost a friend a couple of years ago to breast cancer,
(29:36):
and I was sitting at dinner with some friends when
I got the text that she had passed.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I was one of those friends.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
She was one of them, and I was like, oh
my god, my friend Tara just passed away, blah blah,
and it was like it was time, you know, like
she had been fighting it and she was really sick,
and so there was some relief in it. And then
like twenty minutes later, I get a text that was
like JK got the wrong information she's not dead, and
I was like, and I'd already texted a bunch of
friends to like pass information.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
On hers, like at the table, basically crying.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Crying it was, and then I was laughing, you know
because like, and then when I got when we got
together for her funeral with friends, like, we all laughed
about it because it's like that was the most Tara
thing ever that like word got out that she was dead,
but then she wasn't. She would have gotten such a
good laugh out of it. And to be able to,
like in our grief, find the humor the humanity of
(30:30):
the person that we'd lost, I think was really helpful.
You know, that does not mean that there weren't dark moments,
of course, but you know, I think grieving it is
it's like what he said at Ebbs and Flows. So
sometimes I am laughing about it, but then sometimes I'm like,
I really wish that she was here to experience this
moment because this would be so tar or whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So well, I think that there's two things you've said
that I really want to point out about the grief
process that I think are really important. And one is community, Right,
Like that was something that we talked about on the
podcast Wednesday was he mentioned twelve Step and I've had
this experience as well, where it's like, when you go
to a place of people who have walked through similar stories,
(31:13):
it does help with the pain of what you're feeling,
because grief can feel so isolating, and we keep mentioning death,
but there's so many different things that can happen to
put someone into a grieving place. And I think that
that's also important to say, because it's like I think
when we don't equate it to something big enough, there's
often a lot of shame in that part of the
(31:36):
journey too, and so you're like, oh, but it's no
big deal, you went through something worse, you know. Like
I think that that's a common thing that people say, is, well,
I don't really want to make this a big thing
because like they went through X, Y, and Z, and like,
we cannot compare ourselves to others because everyone's journey is
completely different, and what you experienced in your story could
(31:57):
be as big as in their story for them, you know,
like we don't really know. But finding the people who
can hear you out, who can feel like safe people
to talk to and that will continue on the path
with you, like not it doesn't have to be every day,
but like just so you don't feel like you're walking alone.
Like I find that to be a very important part
(32:18):
of the process of grief, Like the people who can
respect the journey and the process of it. And then
also just like really being honest with each other, like
what we were saying, Like I said to our friend
who lost his mom, like, I don't know what to say,
but I'm happy to sit with you in any of
this because I'm very comfortable there and like, tell me
what you want to say. And like I still often
(32:38):
talk to him about his mom, and he's told me
that was the most helpful thing, because so many people
just want that part of his story to be over
or they think that the conversation about her is over
because she hasn't been here now for maybe like three years,
I think, And for him it's an everyday thing, you know,
just like you're saying. And so I think being acknowledged
(32:59):
in that and witnessed in that is healing for us. Yeah,
people and human So that's just really important too.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I wonder if it's just you know, us again not
knowing what to say. So if you do say something
and then it brings up tears and then you're in
a then you're in this like uncomfortable position in those moments,
like you have to take yourself out of the equation
a little bit and think about the person that isn't
grieving and give them what you think they might.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Need, or just ask them like I just really don't
know that we know, you know, like I don't. I think,
like you said at the beginning of this podcast, everyone
grieves in different ways, and everyone's needs are so different
in those moments, and so like how could you predict it?
But I think what you're trying to say too is
the part about like maybe not taking it personal if
you don't get it exactly right and you upset them,
(33:49):
Like there's all these layers to what they're feeling. Some
of it could just be projection as well, and hopefully
you can say it at some point like you know,
my heart's in the right place. I don't know what
to say say to you, and so I'm struggling like
just be I just think being honest never really goes wrong.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yes, or or offering saying like hey, I have no
idea what you're going through right now, But I am
here no matter what. Yes, call me in the middle
of the night if you need me, ye need I'll
do it.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I think that goes a long way too.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, it really does well.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I was reading about a bunch of other cultures and
John kind of mentioned this in the podcast Wednesday, But
like there would be there's certain cultures that really honor
grief in a way that like if someone spouse dies,
I think it's like I think it was a twelve
month ritual that this person does or whatever, and it's
honored by the whole culture. I'm not doing it very
(34:41):
much justice right now because I don't remember the specifics,
but it's like, because of that happening, like if you
become a widower, people know what that process would be
and it's very respected, and that's all I really want.
I don't think that that's realistic in our culture to
be like, Okay, well see it in twelve months, get
back to us whatever, or that you could even put
(35:02):
a time period on that. But I do think there's
something really beautiful about honoring the process of it and
respecting where people are and knowing it's going to be
day to day for a long time, like they're not
going to even know what each day is going to bring.
And like Robin Williams Sun said, is it just shows
its face usually out of the blue. It's totally unpredictable.
(35:22):
You could be driving down the street and see something
or hear a song or whatever, and that's the thing
that sends you into a bad place that day. So
just knowing that, like you're not just gonna like snap
your fingers and get over something and then be done forever.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Well, it reminds me too of the Stephen Wilson Junior,
who I'm like a super fan of. He has a
song called Grief Is Only Love and the lyric is
grief is only Love with nowhere else to go. And
I think if you can hold onto that concept, and
by the way, if anybody is grieving and needs a
great record to like feel not alone and to cry
(35:56):
and listen to, the Son of Dad by Stephen will
Junior is so good and it's his father was his
best friend and he was a single dad that raised
him and he lost his dad and this record was,
you know how he dealt with that that grief, which
you know, I think in some ways he says, it's
a little unhealthy because now I have to go on
(36:16):
stage and like grief publicly every night. Yeah, but I
think that's his process. So, but grief is only love
with nowhere else to go is such an amazing idea,
so that when you do get sad, it's just a
reminder like that this person or this thing that you
loved so much isn't in your life anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, you wouldn't feel the sadness if you didn't feel
all that.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Love, right, So it's it's a really beautiful thing. I also,
you know, wanted to bring up for my Jewish friends
who sit shiva. It's like that is a cultural thing
that I've never really understood, like exactly what it is.
I've heard the I've heard it mentioned a lot, especially
when I lived in Los Angeles, I had lots of
friends that would sit shiva, and it's such an interesting
(36:58):
I read up about it a little today and it's
a week long morning process. And one of the things
that I thought that was most interesting about it is
like they use the time to discuss the loss and
to accept the comfort from others, And I think that's
really important.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
That's the comfort from others yes.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Because basically you're I mean, you're you're sitting for seven
days and you're you know, guests are coming in to
mourn with you and to grieve with you, and this
all happens post funeral. So once you can't sit shive
until like the grave is completely covered by soil, and
then you sit for seven days and when you when
you end shiva, you get up and you walk around
(37:40):
the block to signify like you're going back into the world.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
But I think the really important thing that jumped out
to me was that it lets you accept the comfort
of others, which it sounds really beautiful to me, you know,
and I love that culture.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, of course it is, but respect it. Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I'm sure you know there are some people that like
take it. I mean that's the wrong term, but like
you know, the people that are like they want the
attention of giving you their acceptance or giving you their
their comfort. People do it for the wrong reasons or
because they feel like they have to or whatever. But
I just love culturally that that exists. Yeah, I know,
like that's I didn't have that in the church that
(38:20):
I grew up in. Like you would have a funeral
and then there was like the party, you know, whatever
it is. You would have the viewing, the funeral, and
then there's the party afterwards where everyone brings a dish
and then everyone leaves and you're stuck there with a
bunch of leftovers and dishes that you have to return.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Not to be Debbie Downer, but yeah, so yeah, I do.
I do agree. I think there's it's a beautiful thing
that people honor it in that way. And although that
process sounds very tiring to me emotionally, I can see
where it would be very cathartic as well, and then
you would maybe be ready to go back out into
(38:57):
the world in a different kind of way, because I've
spent seven straight days going through that process. So I
think it's just an interesting conversation, like we said, and
I do really respect this book The Magic and the
Tragic because reframing that conversation to even speak about grief
in this way, to go try to find the beauty
in it and to find whatever your process was. Like,
(39:20):
he talked a lot about his grieving process involved really
getting into music, and there was some creativity that he
found during one of his deepest grieving processes, and like
really leaning on the arts in certain ways. Like you
were just mentioning Stephen Wilson Junior's album. I mean that's
what he did too, that's how he got it out.
I'm not a songwriter, so don't have that luxury, but
(39:41):
like it could be anything. It could What I described
was sitting outside and noticing nature. That's a beautiful creative
process in a lot of ways too, a connecting process.
So I think it's different for everyone. If you are
in a stage of loss or grief, go check out
this book. And also, like what Robin williams Son said,
I love giving back doing service, Like that's a beautiful
way to kind of get out of your own self
(40:03):
and remember what we're all here for, you know, at
the end of the day. So anyway, the book's called
Magic in the Tragic. I'll put it in the description
of this podcast. If you guys want to talk to
us about this conversation at all, you can always email
us at the Edge at velvet sedge dot com. You
can hit me up on Instagram I'm at Velvet.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Edge Chip, I'm at chipdoor should Chip d r scch.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
We also are starting our own Velvet Edge podcast Instagram
at Velvet Edge podcast, so go follow that. We're gonna
be posting really soon, so go check that out. And
as you guys go into the weekend and you're living
on the edge, I hope you always remember too a
casual we gonna nurse this red face. Bye,
Hello, Chip, Hello here. That's really lovely today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You know what's funny is I have aw This is
like bad hair. Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Sometimes I feel like your bad hair is your best hair.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I know. That's why I got to keep it nice
and short, because it's when the sides are awful after
bad hair.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, gets a little mushroomy for you. How do you
think I look.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Well, we've been chatting for a minute, and your face
is less red.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh that is interesting. So I told Chip before we recorded,
I may look a little crazy. When we got on
the recording and we first got on, he was like,
oh whoa, oh.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yeah right, red like sunburn red.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, it feels like a sunburn. I had two laser
treatments today. I did the bb L laser and the
moxy right after. And I'm going to post my documentation
of this process once I kind of get through it.
Because so I'm at this weird age right like I
just turned forty three, and as a girl, you're kind
of in the place where you're like, I've been doing botox.
(01:02):
I've been doing all this stuff. And then I started
to realize, like I didn't like the way it was
looking anymore. And I'm also like almost craving more natural now,
Like the more makeup you do, the more shit you do,
almost makes you look worse as you get older, you know.
And so I'm in this weird in between being like
(01:23):
definitely older and being young to where I'm trying to
figure out my new process, I guess. So I had
heard a lot about these two lasers, and I went
in to see these girls just to try them because
I'm like, Okay, well I do want to work on
my skin. So basically what I'm working on with this
is sun spots, evening out skin tone, fine lines, and wrinkles.
(01:45):
I don't know, I'm just gonna see. I read, you know,
I read mixed views. Some people are like doing lasers
is a waste of time, and then some people swear
by them. So I have to just try everything myself
to figure out how I feel about it. So I'll
keep you guys posted. But it's been interesting. Aging is weird,
Like we kind of talk about this when you're, you know,
coming up on fifty, but like, have you noticed like
each year that passes, I feel like I'm having all
(02:09):
these new awarenesses and I'm stepping into like a new
version of myself. Slowly every year. Do you feel like
that at all? Or am I just like going a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I feel like the pressure for aging for women is
very different than men, true, I mean in the gay community,
it's probably more similar to women. There are changes that
I'm going through that I recognize, but I'm fighting very
hard to like continue to feel like a twenty year old,
you know, like yeah, just mentally.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
That's so interesting because I think I'm doing the opposite
right right. I'm like, there, you couldn't pay me to
go back to my twenties. And I'm also trying I
mean physically, of course, I see, you know. I was
on a shoot with Tucker Wetmore this week, and like
he's just so adorable. I just love him so much.
But he's young, you know, and so all the p
(03:00):
in the video with him, we're all young. And I'm
looking at these kids and I'm like, they're all gorgeous,
Like yeah, they're just kight. Their bodies are tight, like
they look so good. And I just truly feel because
like even his management team everything, I'm the old person
in this crew, like, you know, everyone's younger, and so
it's just really interesting because I have been in the
(03:20):
other position for so many years, and now I'm like, oh,
I'm getting to be the one that's been around the
long time, and like that's older than everyone else, which
obviously I know I'm not old, but like just being
in that company, I kind of felt like I'm the
old fart here, Like I don't go out after you know,
just like.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
We're like, who's that lady, Yeah, ma'am, yeah, ma'am, yes, ma'am. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I mean Tucker is very much respectful like that to me,
and I'm like, oh my god, I don't know that
he does that, but yeah, it's basically like, let me
take care of the lady over here. But anyway, I
just find even watching them though, I'm like, I love
how excited they are. I love being around that energy.
It's so lovely with work. And also, you couldn't pay
(04:05):
me to go back, Like I so the lessons that
I've learned since being in that period in my life,
you couldn't pay me to go through them again. Like right,
It's just I know what they have ahead of them maybe,
and so I'm like just sitting back kind of observing
right from a place of like how fun with that guys?
So there's that like, I don't know what you're talking
about with this, like you wanted to be in your
(04:26):
twenties again. I'm like, what, Well, it's.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Not that I want to be in my twenties, it's
that I don't want to feel old. So I mean,
i'll give you an example. I went and saw cold
Play the other night, and the show was amazing, But
it's a million degrees in Nashville right now, and you
put eighty thousand people in a stadium or however many
people it is.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh, was it at Nissan.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
It was at Nissan, so it's outside and you've just
got more like bodies that are moving and dancing and
screaming that just make it even hotter. And it was like, ooh,
there was like I'm sure some people did, but there
was like occasionally there was like a little bit of
a breeze, but like for the most part, there was
not a breeze at all. And then I went to
the after party, good gush, and I didn't really have
(05:06):
many drinks the whole time, but it was just like
I was like out late doing things that like I
did all the time when I was in my twenties
of course, and thirties and the next day I wasn't hungover,
I was just exbeded. Yeah, I was like, I can't mind.
I just don't recover in the same way. And so
I recognize those things. So I think I probably have
(05:28):
to make some decisions moving forward based on that information,
where it's like I can still go to the show,
but I don't need to be at the after party. No.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
If I start to see my clock and it's eleven
and I'm out a panic, I'm like, cause it's like
I don't want to be out past, Like I don't
want to be not in bed by the latest midnight,
you know, Like I'm getting in bed at like nine nowadays,
Like I just maybe i'll watch a show. It's like
I'm going to bed, but like I don't know, I
really value sleep. My body can't bounce back like you
(06:00):
I said, like I would have been down for like
two or three days from that. It feels like it is.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I mean, it's the recovery is real, you know, It's
it is not easy. So there are those things, and
then you know, looking at my skin and the looseness
and the wrinkles and all those things. But I'm just
I try to ignore it too, I mean not in
an healthy way. Like if I see a spot that
I'm like concerned about, I'm.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Like, you try not to hate on yourself for it,
I think is what you're Yeah, And I think that's
what I'm saying about. Like I haven't I've been trying
to not do botox anymore, and I don't know that
I'll go back to it or not go back to it.
I haven't made my decision, but I wanted everything that
I had to be like out of my face before
I made a decision again. And so I have been
doing that and it's like my forehead moves. This is
(06:44):
going to sound crazy to sell me O, I'm sure,
but like I think a lot of people might relate
to my forehead moves now. And I have like wrinkles,
you know, And at first I freaked out about that,
which made me be really question myself. And because now
I'm looking at my face and I'm like, I actually
just look normal, Like this is what we're supposed to live, right,
And I think it's great to, you know, take care
(07:04):
of yourself. And that's why I wanted to do this
laser because I do have some sun damage that's really
starting to show more, and so I want to get
ahead of that because I'm a makeup artist, Like I
know what that looks like as you just let it
go on. But at the same time, I do want
to be kinder to myself and like try to be
in more acceptance of like I've lived some life and
like there's a lot that comes with aging that's beautiful too,
(07:28):
and so I don't want to just be like this
person that's feeling less than or hating on myself. Even
trying to keep up with the Jones is like what
I think our culture kind of like makes us feel
like we have to do. Like I do feel like
there should be some beauty in this process that I'm
really trying to embrace. So anyway, I'll keep you guys
posted on the laser. But I told you this like
(07:49):
connection between this topic and our topic that we're going
to talk about today, and I actually think they do
tie in together in some weird way. But as a
part of this like aging that I'm talking about, do
you think you go through experiences in life? And like
my podcast on Wednesday was with John Stilim Paris, and
he wrote this book called The Magic and the tragic,
(08:10):
and he really is trying to reframe the conversation about grief,
and one of the main things he says is like,
I think a lot of people try to show up
in this life and pretend that they're not going to
go through a period of grief, and like there's not
one person on this planet that is going to escape
the grief process. Like you don't have to do grieving
(08:31):
in a way that you know, you can stuff it
or whatever, but like you're gonna go through things that hurt.
That's part of life. And right, I think if you
believe anything spiritual, you probably have some sort of insight
into like the whys of what that happens. And I
always try to look at it as like what is
this here to teach me? Like how can I grow
even through the pain? And we talked about this on Wednesday,
(08:52):
But like some of the most painful experiences of my life.
As much as I fucking hate when people say, like
you'll look back and be grateful for this, I do
because of what the process brought me to within myself,
you know, And I couldn't have gotten there. Like I
don't think we grow without pain. I really don't yeah,
why would you, like, if life's going great, why are
(09:13):
you going to do anything to change it?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Well? And it's funny because if you think about the verse,
when you're trying to avoid grief, how that stunts your growth?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It totally does?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know, It's like you're choosing to not grow by
you know, trying to avoid grief.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Right, Like when you see the older people that you
feel are really emotionally immature, that's probably what it is.
Like we're trying to avoid the hard feelings, but nobody
likes to do it right, Like it's not like you go, oh,
you know, what I want to do today is go
through something really hard, So I have to go through
process Like it's not fun, So of course we want
to avoid it. I think that's like a natural human thing.
(09:48):
But you and I were talking before the podcast of
just like how do we reframe our mindset around grief
and try to look at the beautiful things that can
come from that process us or the gift of grief,
and also really removing the shame that comes around, like
how long that process can take or even like the
(10:11):
lifelong journey that it can be. I know we had
said maybe we should share some of our personal journey
and experiences with grief, and like what that's taught us?
Do you want to stay well?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, it's funny because it's obviously you can grieve
grief effects or as a result, I guess, or is
a byproduct of a lot of things. Like the most
obvious is a breakup or a death or a loved one.
But we're talking about like our youth, like grieving the
loss of that, or the loss of a job, or
the loss of a friendship, the loss of a pet.
(10:42):
And I've experienced a lot of grief in my life.
I mean I lost my best friend Whise in third grade,
and you know, as a third grader, it's like you
really I had pneumonia at the time, and I thought
I was going to die next Like I didn't understand death. Really,
I didn't understand grief. My best friend his name was Evan,
and there's not a day that goes by that I
(11:03):
don't think about him. And I've got a picture of
him in my house, you know, And it's like I
was in third grade, I was a kid, but I'll
never forget him. And I was sick at home with
pneumonia and it was my He died on my sister's
birthday and she was having a slumber party and this
girl named Beth was there who had never met Evan,
and she went through a whole box of tissues, just
(11:24):
bawling her eyes out, and me, I didn't know how
to experience it. And so it's funny like looking back
on it, like the freedom that she felt to breathe
in front of us, where I didn't know what to do.
You know, that's really interests that, like everyone's got it
sort of a different approach or a relationship with grief
(11:46):
because I'm like the sort of an ultra positive person
I try to. I mean, it's probably like meet without
me realizing it, and as I'm saying it, I'm opening
myself up to it. Like I think I tried to
push it down by by finding the beauty in it
rather than just like sitting in the darkness of it,
(12:07):
because I'm not comfortable in that space. But like I
you know, at my grandmother's wedding, she wedding funeral, My
grandmother was my best friend growing up, you know, like
I was so close to her and I was like
all of our grand all of her grandchildren will tell
you that I was her favorite. I'm proudly that, and
I spoke at her funeral like I was not going
(12:28):
to allow my grief to keep me from letting that
room know how important she was to me.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, I still have what I wrote, like, and I've
read through it since, and I can't believe I was
able to get up and say that many words, you know.
But I think my strength and my love for her
allowed me to do that. But I also don't know
that I've ever properly grieved her death in the way
that like it seems necessary for someone that important in
(12:55):
your life, and you know, I don't know where that
comes from. Like it's so there's some the programming for
my family. I like never saw my dad crying when
I was you know, he was like a tough man, like.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
In general, I think, y'ah, I taught.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
That, Yeah, even with like breakups, like I also never
want a burden in anybody, you know, Like that is
the last thing I want to do is to be
a burden to anyone. I want to be helpful and
bring joy. And so I think part of me has
turned off that grieving knob. But I have also learned
(13:30):
that as I've gotten older in life. Even in like
short relationships, like I have a hard time letting them
just end because I don't know if it's the avoidance
of grief or me trying to like smooth it over
and make it really easy for the other person, or
trying to find the good in the person. When red
(13:51):
flags present themselves, I often don't want to see them,
and so then after it's over, I don't know that
I would recognize it as grief, but I think about
it for much longer than I need to, And I
don't know necessarily know that I talk about it like
I shure ye, but I do think about it. So
maybe that is my version of grief. And I think
(14:12):
it probably has a lot just to do with the
household that I grew up in, you know, Yeah, don't
be a cry baby. I know those sorts of things.
And it's like I was a very very sensitive kid.
Like the first time I went hunting, I killed two
squirrels with the gun I'd been given for Christmas. Yeah,
and I was so proud of myself. This is a
(14:33):
little morbid, but like my dad cut the tails off
and like gave me the tails, Like I was a
Davy Crockett or some shit, and my parents are like
where they were trying to find it, and I was
up in my room petting the tails, balling my eyes
out and vowed to never go hunting again. Like that
was the kind of kid I was, And if I
ever lied to my mom or my dad like an
(14:55):
hour later, I would be like bawling and telling them
the truth. And I was really sensitive and not afraid
to cry. Yeah, But I feel like the older I've gotten,
I've hardened, and society has said that's not what you're
supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
And I don't know that you've hardened. I think you've
trained yourself not to like allow that to come out
or definitely not in public to Christ.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But I think I can't remember the last time I
had a really good cry, like yeah, and I understand
the importance of it, like, and I would like to
think that I'm not ashamed of it. I just somewhere
I like closed that box, yes, And I mean that
is it is a shame lock that is on it,
you know. Yeah, even just having this conversation, it's like
I should say out loud to give myself the permission
(15:41):
to like feel those hard feelings whenever I need to,
because they don't escape.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Like you put them into something else.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
There's something Yeah, it's something else. And and I think
that there's also something really beautiful about the idea of
like owning your grief and taking it and turning it
into something else. But you have to recognize it first. Yeah, yeah,
you have to write, you have to sit with it
and recognize it first. And I find this conversation to
(16:10):
be really interesting because otherwise I don't think I would
have ever thought about it.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Well, so I'm hoping that opens the door for some
other people to sort of think about it.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I'm actually really glad that you're telling exactly what it
looks like for you, because you said one thing to
you where you were like, you know, in my family,
we said just be strong. And what's so interesting to
me about that statement is I actually believe that people
who allow themselves to feel the hard feelings are the strongest.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The strongest.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, and we have somehow gotten that mixed up in
our society where we think that you not feeling or
not looking weak or vulnerable, that's strong. That's not strong.
That's not strong. To me, truly, that is one of
the things as I've gotten older, when I see that
in a person, I don't view that as strong. To me,
If anything, it looks more weak. What is really strong
(17:08):
is the people who go face their shit like that
is hard work. It is allowing yourself to go to
the depths like you're talking about, like allowing yourself to
feel the hard feelings, to go to the deep places,
to cry, to be angry, to be an acceptance of that.
That is so much strength. Like what I've observed so
(17:28):
many people in all the work that I've done, and
like I've done a lot of group therapy too, and
like witnessing someone doing that process, I will have the
most respect for those people that I walked through those
journeys with for the rest of my life because like,
to me, I'm like, that is a strong ass person. Yeah,
the person who can meet themselves in the darkest places.
That is strong and to not turn into an asshole
(17:51):
because you go through something hard like, those are the
strong people. But the wats who come out kinder or
that like use it as a growth opportunity or whatever, Like,
I have more respect for that than for anyone that
just like diminishes the feelings and pretends like they're not there.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, totally. I mean I struggle with hard conversations. I
worry and ponder and create scenarios in my mind when
I have to have a hard conversation and I work
really hard to figure out how to soften the conversation.
But every time I have a hard conversation, it's like,
I pre grieve the result and I but the freedom
(18:28):
that you feel after you've just done it is unbelievable.
So it's not the same thing as like recognizing grief
and like really dealing and like digging in and dealing
with it. But I do think it's a It is
a proof that going to dark places and doing hard
(18:49):
things in the moment sucks to have to do it.
But what the way that it sets you free afterwards
is the growth. And I think I think if you
can think of grieving in that way and allowing that
grief to sort of drown you for a minute, on
the other side of that is the knowledge that you
(19:10):
know that moment is supposed to bring to you.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You just said that so perfectly like that that is
exactly what it is, because I probably the way I
just said it, it was like really harsh. I don't mean
it like, oh, you fucking weak ass person.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
No, I think they're a really good example. I think
I think that made perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
But I also think that a lot of times we
don't know how to grieve like that is. That's a
thing that I do like about this book is that
he really kind of talks about some of the things
you can do and the beauty you can find. And
I told him on the podcast, like, if you guys
haven't listened, I'll kind of just repeat the story, but like,
definitely go listen, because I found this to be very
(19:48):
cathartic as well. But it was like, thinking through the
times where I've grieved, one of the main things that
pops to my head is like that life just slows down, right,
because then all of a sudden, when you go through
something hard, you look at the shit that you worry
about every day and you're like, why is that the
thing that drives me crazy every day? It doesn't matter,
you know, like everything just becomes less in our day
(20:09):
to day lives because that really hard thing has really
like broken you open to realize none of that stuff
really matters. And I told him, I'm like, my life
just slows down. And it's like when I go outside,
even like if I go sit on my front porch
or something. I remember the last time I was in
a really dark place, I was like, my neighbors probably
think I'm crazy because I didn't have a backyard set
(20:30):
up at all, and so I would sit on this
bench in my front yard and just watch people walk by.
But I like needed to be out of my house,
but I didn't really want to be around people or
go anywhere, you know, And I just was like sitting
there and I would notice the wind blowing through the leaves,
or the butterfly that landed on the plant in front
of me, or just like the noises of the birds,
Like everything just feels more visceral. I feel like like
(20:53):
in those periods of time, and when I would come
out of it, it was almost like I would crave
that connection with nature then again, or like the music
I had been listening to, it's like you just start
to notice. It's like your noticer gets turned way up right,
and that actually is beautiful, Like that's a beautiful part
of the human experience to me, to really realize how
(21:16):
much we're all connected. And I don't know that I
would ever have had those moments if I hadn't gone
through the hard times to give me that, Like, yo,
you need to stop for a second. And like the
shit that I would be worrying about for me to go,
I don't care at all about that right now, Like
that just doesn't matter at all, knowing that.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
We are just a speck of dust on this big,
huge universe. Yeah, it really is a reminder, and I
think it's a beautiful part of grief because it reminds
us that we're small and that these problems that we
think are so big aren't as big as they all are.
And what is important is that the people that are
(22:00):
around you that you love, and the things that you love,
and the beauty that like this is all around us,
those things are what's really important. And it does give
you time to pause. But you know, it's I can
only speak from my experience because I don't know what
it feels like for anyone else to grieve. But like
I feel like societally and the way that like corporate
(22:20):
America approaches it, like they're just like get back on
the horse, like we got shoes to sell. Yeah, we've
got shit that needs to get done. And the funny
thing is is like those few days that you are
out like that, shit still gets done. It's getting done
without you. Well yeah, but we are trained to believe
that the world is going to stop spending if we
(22:41):
don't do what we're supposed to do every day. So
I think culturally we all could use just a reset
and a reframe on the grace that we give ourselves
and the grace that we give others when they're going
through a really hard time.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Well, because we do have this connection of productivity to
worth right, and so if we stop or we can't
function like we normally are, then all of a sudden,
I think it's like we start to question who am I?
Without this stuff? And so that's a really interesting connection
to be faced with. But then it also really makes
(23:15):
you think, like, am I only the person that goes
to work every day? Is that the whole makeup of
who I am?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
It's not. So why wouldn't we allow ourselves the space
to not be okay or not be able to produce
at that same rate?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
You know?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Like I remember one of our friends had a mom.
His mom passed away a couple of years ago, and
it was devastating. She died in a car wreck, and
she was his best friend. They talked every day. I mean,
you and I were talking about this a little bit,
and I remember him talking about like getting work calls
during that time, and he was like, I know I
need to care, but I really can't make myself care
(23:52):
right now. Like it's really difficult for me to want
to show up and do this thing at work because
all I can think about is like, why does this
even matter? Like my best friend just died, my mom
just died, you know, Like that's what matters to me.
And I'm just trying to get out of bed every
day much less like this work process, like it just
(24:13):
doesn't seem important, and truthfully, it probably wasn't at the time.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Of course, we all have responsibilities, we have to pay
bills all the things. But it's like it is interesting
the guilt that we would put on ourselves. I was
telling another story about another friend we've had go through
a breakup and watching her go through the process of
like shaming herself to be over it, you know, and like,
I know I've done that to myself so many times,
and fortunately for me, my body doesn't work that way.
(24:38):
Like I'm too much of a feeler and I'm just
gonna be forced back into feeling even if I don't
want to be. But like the shame that comes with
it sometimes of like why am I not over this yet?
Like we're so mean to ourselves and that's not how
grief works. Like you were talking about, grief isn't linear.
It's like it's very much that quirkscrew process. What were
(24:58):
you talking about?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Was that? I mean when we started talking about the topic,
I'd just seen this today. It was Robin William's son
posted a few days ago and it got picked up
on a site that I follow because it was the end.
It would have been three days ago, it would have
been Robin William's seventy fourth birthday, and I had read
this and it struck me. When you sent me the topics,
(25:20):
I'll just read it. He posted today would have been
my dad's seventy fourth birthday. Every year, the season arrives
with gravity. In just sixty days, we passed through Father's Day,
his birthday, and the anniversary of his death. It's a
tender and complicated stretch of time, one that asks a
lot of the heart. For me. Grief isn't linear. I
think it's so the key part there is the for
(25:42):
me part. For me, grief isn't linear. It loops and
it echoes, it softens, then crescendos. But alongside it lives
a legacy, the kind built not from fame or recognition,
but from generosity and relentless kindness. My father lived to
make people feel seen. He gave permission to feel deeply
into laugh through the pain in his absence. That mission continues.
(26:03):
So today I hold close the idea that the best
way to honor those we love is to live with
the values they stood for, to lead with service and compassion,
to lift others when they're down, and to find the
paths are like even in the dark corners. To anyone
carrying loss right now, you are not alone. You are
part of a passage of love and connection that never
really ends. Happy birthday, Dad, Love you forever. Clearly he's
(26:26):
gone through some he's learned a lot from his grief,
but he's also not willing to let it go. And
I think the important thing to remember there is letting
it go is also letting that string of love that
still exists. For his father, it's like cutting it. It
is the grief is what connects them now, the memories,
(26:46):
the sadness that he's not there. Like, I'm still really
fortunate to have both of my parents, but like I
don't want to ever stop missing them when they're gone.
You know, Like that sounds like a really dark day. Yeah,
we all need to give ourselves a little bit more grace.
And I also think too, it's we need to look
at our friends and the ones that we love and
(27:09):
give them that space to grieve too, and know that
there it's not gonna it's never gonna end for them either.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So to acknowledge it, to allow it to be a process.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Too well, to keep those people alive in their minds too.
You know, It's like it doesn't have to be like
every day being like how are you today, they're like
putting them in a dark mood. You can just be
like I saw this, It made me think of your
mom or your dad or whatever, and like, don't make
it a shameful thing that someone has passed on in
(27:41):
their life, you know. Yeah, which is hard because we're
we are trained to be these non emotional robots.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And I think that's the thing, right, Nobody knows what
to say and I think that's one of the main
things that most people who go through something really hard,
like a death or it's just something tragic, one thing
I think they would say in common is like people
get uncomfortable and don't know what to say, and you know,
we do the thing where we're like, she's in a
better place or whatever, and that it's just such bullshit,
(28:10):
right because it's like not helpful. And so a lot
of times, like one of the things that I've done
when I'm around people who I know are going through
something hard that they've said thank you for later is
asking them what it feels like or how they are
or what can I say. I don't are just saying
I don't know what to say to you.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, I don't know what to say, dude. I this
reminds me in fifth grade.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Am I dude?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, okay, I was just.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
This is just occurring to me. When I was in
fifth grade, a girl named Jennifer in my class, her
father died on Christmas. He was a fisherman and died
in this car. And when I went back to school,
my grandmother had died earlier that year. I said to her,
I'm really sorry. I know how you feel. And she
looked at me and she said, you have no fucking
idea how I feel. And it was the wrong thing
(29:08):
to say, because I didn't know how she felt. I
was equating the same thing, but I hadn't lost my dad.
I didn't know how she felt.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
So it's moments like that too that probably you don't
want me not to know what to say. I don't
want to say the wrong thing, you know, it's and
then that is something that is ingrained in me. But
I the older I've gotten, the more like, you know,
you have to become comfortable with the idea of death,
because it's going to happen to all of us. I
lost a friend a couple of years ago to breast cancer,
(29:36):
and I was sitting at dinner with some friends when
I got the text that she had passed.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I was one of those friends.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
She was one of them, and I was like, oh
my god, my friend Tara just passed away, blah blah,
and it was like it was time, you know, like
she had been fighting it and she was really sick,
and so there was some relief in it. And then
like twenty minutes later, I get a text that was
like JK got the wrong information she's not dead, and
I was like, and I'd already texted a bunch of
friends to like pass information.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
On hers, like at the table, basically crying.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Crying it was, and then I was laughing, you know
because like, and then when I got when we got
together for her funeral with friends, like, we all laughed
about it because it's like that was the most Tara
thing ever that like word got out that she was dead,
but then she wasn't. She would have gotten such a
good laugh out of it. And to be able to,
like in our grief, find the humor the humanity of
(30:30):
the person that we'd lost, I think was really helpful.
You know, that does not mean that there weren't dark moments,
of course, but you know, I think grieving it is
it's like what he said at Ebbs and Flows. So
sometimes I am laughing about it, but then sometimes I'm like,
I really wish that she was here to experience this
moment because this would be so tar or whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So well, I think that there's two things you've said
that I really want to point out about the grief
process that I think are really important. And one is community, Right,
Like that was something that we talked about on the
podcast Wednesday was he mentioned twelve Step and I've had
this experience as well, where it's like, when you go
to a place of people who have walked through similar stories,
(31:13):
it does help with the pain of what you're feeling,
because grief can feel so isolating, and we keep mentioning death,
but there's so many different things that can happen to
put someone into a grieving place. And I think that
that's also important to say, because it's like I think
when we don't equate it to something big enough, there's
often a lot of shame in that part of the
(31:36):
journey too, and so you're like, oh, but it's no
big deal, you went through something worse, you know. Like
I think that that's a common thing that people say, is, well,
I don't really want to make this a big thing
because like they went through X, Y, and Z, and like,
we cannot compare ourselves to others because everyone's journey is
completely different, and what you experienced in your story could
(31:57):
be as big as in their story for them, you know,
like we don't really know. But finding the people who
can hear you out, who can feel like safe people
to talk to and that will continue on the path
with you, like not it doesn't have to be every day,
but like just so you don't feel like you're walking alone.
Like I find that to be a very important part
(32:18):
of the process of grief, Like the people who can
respect the journey and the process of it. And then
also just like really being honest with each other, like
what we were saying, Like I said to our friend
who lost his mom, like, I don't know what to say,
but I'm happy to sit with you in any of
this because I'm very comfortable there and like, tell me
what you want to say. And like I still often
(32:38):
talk to him about his mom, and he's told me
that was the most helpful thing, because so many people
just want that part of his story to be over
or they think that the conversation about her is over
because she hasn't been here now for maybe like three years,
I think, And for him it's an everyday thing, you know,
just like you're saying. And so I think being acknowledged
(32:59):
in that and witnessed in that is healing for us. Yeah,
people and human So that's just really important too.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I wonder if it's just you know, us again not
knowing what to say. So if you do say something
and then it brings up tears and then you're in
a then you're in this like uncomfortable position in those moments,
like you have to take yourself out of the equation
a little bit and think about the person that isn't
grieving and give them what you think they might.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Need, or just ask them like I just really don't
know that we know, you know, like I don't. I think,
like you said at the beginning of this podcast, everyone
grieves in different ways, and everyone's needs are so different
in those moments, and so like how could you predict it?
But I think what you're trying to say too is
the part about like maybe not taking it personal if
you don't get it exactly right and you upset them,
(33:49):
Like there's all these layers to what they're feeling. Some
of it could just be projection as well, and hopefully
you can say it at some point like you know,
my heart's in the right place. I don't know what
to say say to you, and so I'm struggling like
just be I just think being honest never really goes wrong.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yes, or or offering saying like hey, I have no
idea what you're going through right now, But I am
here no matter what. Yes, call me in the middle
of the night if you need me, ye need I'll
do it.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I think that goes a long way too.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, it really does well.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I was reading about a bunch of other cultures and
John kind of mentioned this in the podcast Wednesday, But
like there would be there's certain cultures that really honor
grief in a way that like if someone spouse dies,
I think it's like I think it was a twelve
month ritual that this person does or whatever, and it's
honored by the whole culture. I'm not doing it very
(34:41):
much justice right now because I don't remember the specifics,
but it's like, because of that happening, like if you
become a widower, people know what that process would be
and it's very respected, and that's all I really want.
I don't think that that's realistic in our culture to
be like, Okay, well see it in twelve months, get
back to us whatever, or that you could even put
(35:02):
a time period on that. But I do think there's
something really beautiful about honoring the process of it and
respecting where people are and knowing it's going to be
day to day for a long time, like they're not
going to even know what each day is going to bring.
And like Robin Williams Sun said, is it just shows
its face usually out of the blue. It's totally unpredictable.
(35:22):
You could be driving down the street and see something
or hear a song or whatever, and that's the thing
that sends you into a bad place that day. So
just knowing that, like you're not just gonna like snap
your fingers and get over something and then be done forever.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Well, it reminds me too of the Stephen Wilson Junior,
who I'm like a super fan of. He has a
song called Grief Is Only Love and the lyric is
grief is only Love with nowhere else to go. And
I think if you can hold onto that concept, and
by the way, if anybody is grieving and needs a
great record to like feel not alone and to cry
(35:56):
and listen to, the Son of Dad by Stephen will
Junior is so good and it's his father was his
best friend and he was a single dad that raised
him and he lost his dad and this record was,
you know how he dealt with that that grief, which
you know, I think in some ways he says, it's
a little unhealthy because now I have to go on
(36:16):
stage and like grief publicly every night. Yeah, but I
think that's his process. So, but grief is only love
with nowhere else to go is such an amazing idea,
so that when you do get sad, it's just a
reminder like that this person or this thing that you
loved so much isn't in your life anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, you wouldn't feel the sadness if you didn't feel
all that.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Love, right, So it's it's a really beautiful thing. I also,
you know, wanted to bring up for my Jewish friends
who sit shiva. It's like that is a cultural thing
that I've never really understood, like exactly what it is.
I've heard the I've heard it mentioned a lot, especially
when I lived in Los Angeles, I had lots of
friends that would sit shiva, and it's such an interesting
(36:58):
I read up about it a little today and it's
a week long morning process. And one of the things
that I thought that was most interesting about it is
like they use the time to discuss the loss and
to accept the comfort from others, And I think that's
really important.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
That's the comfort from others yes.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Because basically you're I mean, you're you're sitting for seven
days and you're you know, guests are coming in to
mourn with you and to grieve with you, and this
all happens post funeral. So once you can't sit shive
until like the grave is completely covered by soil, and
then you sit for seven days and when you when
you end shiva, you get up and you walk around
(37:40):
the block to signify like you're going back into the world.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
But I think the really important thing that jumped out
to me was that it lets you accept the comfort
of others, which it sounds really beautiful to me, you know,
and I love that culture.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, of course it is, but respect it. Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I'm sure you know there are some people that like
take it. I mean that's the wrong term, but like
you know, the people that are like they want the
attention of giving you their acceptance or giving you their
their comfort. People do it for the wrong reasons or
because they feel like they have to or whatever. But
I just love culturally that that exists. Yeah, I know,
like that's I didn't have that in the church that
(38:20):
I grew up in. Like you would have a funeral
and then there was like the party, you know, whatever
it is. You would have the viewing, the funeral, and
then there's the party afterwards where everyone brings a dish
and then everyone leaves and you're stuck there with a
bunch of leftovers and dishes that you have to return.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Not to be Debbie Downer, but yeah, so yeah, I do.
I do agree. I think there's it's a beautiful thing
that people honor it in that way. And although that
process sounds very tiring to me emotionally, I can see
where it would be very cathartic as well, and then
you would maybe be ready to go back out into
(38:57):
the world in a different kind of way, because I've
spent seven straight days going through that process. So I
think it's just an interesting conversation, like we said, and
I do really respect this book The Magic and the
Tragic because reframing that conversation to even speak about grief
in this way, to go try to find the beauty
in it and to find whatever your process was. Like,
(39:20):
he talked a lot about his grieving process involved really
getting into music, and there was some creativity that he
found during one of his deepest grieving processes, and like
really leaning on the arts in certain ways. Like you
were just mentioning Stephen Wilson Junior's album. I mean that's
what he did too, that's how he got it out.
I'm not a songwriter, so don't have that luxury, but
(39:41):
like it could be anything. It could What I described
was sitting outside and noticing nature. That's a beautiful creative
process in a lot of ways too, a connecting process.
So I think it's different for everyone. If you are
in a stage of loss or grief, go check out
this book. And also, like what Robin williams Son said,
I love giving back doing service, Like that's a beautiful
way to kind of get out of your own self
(40:03):
and remember what we're all here for, you know, at
the end of the day. So anyway, the book's called
Magic in the Tragic. I'll put it in the description
of this podcast. If you guys want to talk to
us about this conversation at all, you can always email
us at the Edge at velvet sedge dot com. You
can hit me up on Instagram I'm at Velvet.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Edge Chip, I'm at chipdoor should Chip d r scch.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
We also are starting our own Velvet Edge podcast Instagram
at Velvet Edge podcast, so go follow that. We're gonna
be posting really soon, so go check that out. And
as you guys go into the weekend and you're living
on the edge, I hope you always remember too a
casual we gonna nurse this red face. Bye,
Host
Kelly Henderson
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