Kelly sits down with world-renowned psychic medium John Edward to talk about his new book, Chasing Evil—a gripping look at where psychic ability meets criminal investigation. Before diving into the story, Kelly and John explore the foundations of psychic work—how intuitive gifts show up for all of us, why the topic sparks such strong reactions, and what it means to practice with ethics and responsibility.
They also discuss John’s surprising collaboration with the FBI, the transformation of skeptics into believers, and the moments that proved intuition can reveal what logic can’t. The conversation closes with reflections on spirituality, hardship, and letting go—why “letting go” doesn’t mean failure and how we can find meaning in life’s darker chapters.
Socials: @psychicmediumje
Website: https://johnedward.net
New Book: Chasing Evil
John's App: Evolve+: discount for VE listeners: cookie2025
HOST:
Kelly Henderson // @velvetsedge // velvetsedge.com
Follow Velvet's Edge on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/velvetsedge/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that it would be
safe to say that you guys already know that I
have always been fascinated by the unseen because I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Such a feeler.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You know. It's the things we can feel but we
just can't always explain. So when I first came across
John Edward years ago, I was instantly curious. You probably
remember him from a show Crossing Over, which brought the
world of psychic mediums into the mainstream. The nature of
what he does, though, it's always sparked conversation and debate,
and somehow through it all he has built an incredibly
(00:43):
respected and long standing career helping people connect with love.
One two have past, and somehow in the meantime he
has become a multi best selling author. His book Infinite
Quest was actually one of the first that taught me
how to protect my own energy as a highly sun person.
He also dives deep into the ethics of doing psychic
(01:04):
work in that book, which to me is not talked
about enough and is so important in one of the
reasons I respect him so much. He's back now with
a new book called Chasing Evil, which explores his work
alongside the FBI. Let's say it's where intuition meets criminal investigation.
So in this conversation we get into all of it,
(01:24):
the dark and the light sides of human nature and
what happens when we let intuition lead the way. So
we were talking before the podcast and I said, we
have a mutual connection in Bonnie Hammer. She was actually
just on the podcast recently. Some my listeners are very familiar,
and I have to tell you the backstory with all
(01:45):
of this. I had a friend recommend Infinite Quest to me.
This was probably six to eight months ago, and it
was just because of some things that I was going through,
and she was like, you should read this book, like
it's really going to help you. I had obviously heard
of you and I knew of your work, but I
hadn't read any of the books yet. And so I
started reading this book and I was just completely geeking out,
(02:05):
loving everything you were saying, and I said, I have
to have him on the podcast. Like I just got
really excited about it. But of course I had no
idea how to get in touch with you. So I
send a DM and then I see you on your page.
You don't respond to dms or ever. DM people, So
I was like, well, shoot, okay, I'm just gonna sit
with this for a minute. So a couple months goes
by Bonnie Hammers, I guess it was her publicist reaches
(02:28):
out to me and she has a book that's coming out,
and so of course I was like thrilled to have
her on the podcast as well. I was also on
a show via NBC Universal, so we had a connection,
but I had no idea she had been probably your
biggest advocate for your show back in the day. So
she comes on the podcast and kind of nonchalantly in
(02:49):
a story she was telling mention to you, and I thought,
oh my god, this is how I connect with John Edward.
This is like one of those real roundabout, weird ways.
So I waited a little bit on that and then
reached out to her people because I didn't I felt
was like, is this overstepping you know, I never want
to like abuse the connections that I have or whatever.
(03:10):
But they were so great about it. They reached out
to you, We got connected via email. It was so easy,
and then it just validated for me if things are
meant for you, they will find you, like we cannot
miss them.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
So isn't that kind of a weird story.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I kind of liked that the I like how that
came about.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, Yeah, it felt good to me too that it
was such a surprise, because that, to me says it's
no mistake at all.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Bonnie's a powerhouse, So there's a I have a very
special place for her. Her birthday is the day before
my mom's birthday. She had a very metriarchal vibe with me,
well not that far off an age, the way that
she you know, treated me and shepherded Crossing it Over
(03:58):
and and me personally and professionally. I have a great
deal of gratitude to her.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, I mean even her powerhouse is the exact word
I would use.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That was such.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
She was such an inspiration to me as a woman
in business, and because of I think her growth through
the years.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
She spoke a lot to.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
My listeners about not neglecting your empathy, your compassion, and
all of the spiritual things we talk about on this
podcast within being a leader, which I just respect so much.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I have some very fond memories of like when my
first season of Crossing Over started, I was an executive producer,
but I didn't really use the title, because I felt
like I'd never produced television before. How do I how
do I say I'm an executive producer? So I don't
believe in the first season it was even on the
(04:51):
on screen like that he had even said that. I
very quickly, after the first thirteen weeks of doing Crossing Over,
learned what the role was and the position was, and
what my position needed to be within that. And I
remember there's something called was it TSA or the Television
Critics TCA? It was TCA, and I wanted to make
(05:12):
some changes. So Bonnie and I had a lunch and
I said, Hey, I'm I'm an executive producer on the show,
and she said you are. I said, so I could
like make like the executive producer kind of like decisions,
and she said, I went, so, I think I want
to make some changes. All she said to me was
(05:32):
tell me when they're done.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So she just let you have the freedom.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Tell me when they're done.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Wow, yep wow.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
And then equally when she met me, she met me
at a local hotel ballroom. You know, I was wearing
T shirt and jeans, and when I started doing the show,
all of a sudden, like your idea of what you
think you should be doing, you know, kicks in and
I wanted to wear my GLFE on television so I
(06:02):
looked more erudite in my field. And I wanted to
wear a suit so that people would take me seriously
because I felt like I should be dressed and I
wanted a co host. I didn't want to do the
TV stuff. And one of the filming days happened to
be the day that I'm wearing a suit, wearing my
glasses and we were trying out a co host and
(06:23):
Ms Hammer was in the control room and she stopped production,
called me into the office or the control room and
basically said to me, what are you doing. This is
not what we discussed. She goes, You're gonna have to
get your butt upstairs. I want your suit off, I
want your contacts in. I want the guy that I
(06:43):
saw in the hotel ballroom. That's what I want. And
no co host, you don't need one? Yeah, no, I
need one, And she was like, don't need one. So
he earned her last name that day. She brought the
hammer down. Yes read it, and you know she had
the vision of what she wanted it to be, which
was based upon my event. And I, you know, I
(07:05):
was dressed very comfortably at my event, and I you know,
had my contacts in and there was clearly no co
host at my own event. So she was she was correct,
and that's why she's who she is, and that's why
she's had the success.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
And absolutely, and.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I loved your podcast. I listened to the podcast with hers.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Thank you so much the hammer. I love that bringing
in the hammer, but also she just saw you authentically
and wanted you to be yourself, which is completely a
part of her skill set that I respect so much
as well. Well, I told you before we started, I
want to jump into just a couple of basics psychet
questions that I'm sure you've answered a million times in
your lifetime, but I know my listeners would love to hear.
(07:42):
And then we do want to talk about You have
a new book out called Chasing Evil that I finished
and when I tell you, I could not put it down.
I listened to it on an audiobook and I felt
like it was one of those people that's like obsessed
with Dateline or something, constantly watching it is it will
hook you. That book is so good, So I can't
wait to talk about that either. But before we start.
I know in both books that I've read of yours,
(08:03):
and so I'm assuming this is something you say consistently.
You say that everyone has psychic abilities and intuition. So
what is the difference between someone just having a strong
intuition and someone who should be doing reading psychically?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Ooh, I like how you phrase that. Okay, very very
different question than people normally would ask me. So there's
no difference between intuition and psychic ability. They're one of
the same. This anonymous, Okay, there is a difference between
I think people who should do it for other people. Yeah,
I think that you are called to do this for
other people. So let me take you back to the
(08:40):
University of Arizona studies that I was part of. It
called the Afterlife Experiments, where myself and a number of
other mediums were being tested.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I want to say it was the second Maybe it
was a second time we were out there doing these
double blind studies. And for those that understand science, every
time you do anything scientific, you have to basically repeat
and extend what you did. So you repeat the previous
test and then you extend to see how far you
can kind of like, you know, push the data. Okay,
(09:08):
we're there for the second I want to say it's
the second time. It might have been the third study,
because I was out there for four times, three official
and one unofficial. And the scientific moderators came into the
room where the mediums were sitting, and opposite me was
a woman named Susanne Northrope. Susan Northrop is a colleague
of mine. She's also from New York. She's probably got
ten years on me experience wise when it comes to
(09:29):
doing mediumship, if not fifteen. And I've known her since
I'm legitimately like sixteen years old, right, That's how this woman.
So I know her a long time, forty years. And
she's sitting in front of me and to our left.
The scientific moderators come in and said, hey, I'm just curious.
You can teach this like you guys can teach people
to be mediums. I said yes, she said no. So
(09:55):
we had this moment while I had this moment of
like I felt completely awkward because I'm like, what do
you what do you mean? And she said emphatically, mediums
are born, they are not created. And I politely was like, Suzanne,
(10:15):
you teach about the subject matter like you teach workshops?
What do you mean? Like, you know, you've got like
books that you've written about educating people about the subject matter.
And I didn't want to, like, you know, call her
out and be like what do you what do you mean? Right?
So she she said, I will say that again. Mediums
(10:36):
are born, they're not created. So we had this like
minor psych off in front of the scientific moderators, you know,
And then when they walked out, I looked at her
and I was like, how could you say that like
you teach workshops? Like why would you like you saw
classes like you educate and lecture people all the time,
You've written books like.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Right, make that make sense?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Oh? And she looked me dead pan in the face
again and said mediums are born, they're not created. So
let's say that was in nineteen ninety nine ish or
two thousands somewhere around there. I just I agreed to
disagree with her. Then crossing over happened. And when crossing
(11:19):
over happened, it blew the roof off of the subject matter,
and everybody and their brother started becoming psychic mediums all
of a sudden. It was like there went people who
did taro there went the people who did astrology, There
went the people who did regular psychic readings or numerology.
Even there were no more psychometrists or pomists. Everybody was
(11:43):
a psychic medium. And I remember saying to Susanne after
the fact, because she had set me and I still
have it to this day. She sent me this amazing
stuffed bear. When you squeeze it, it has her voice
inside saying congratulations, I'm so proud of what you're doing
for the work.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, it was such a it was a really heartfelt moment.
And like I said, it's all these years later, it's
twenty five years later, I still have it. I got it.
I got it in that moment what she meant, because
anybody could say that they're a psychic medium and use
their intuitive ability and attempt to do mediumship, but the
reality is when you're called upon to do this, you're
(12:23):
called upon to do this. And I didn't have the
experience that I needed to answer the question in the
way that she did. So I'm always very deferential to
the people who come before me. I always want to
give the props to the shar Margolises, the George Anderson,
the Suzanne Northropes, the people who were doing this way
before there was a John Edward. And I think what's
(12:45):
important is to always learn from above so that you
can teach below, right, So in astrology, to talk about
as above so below. I kind of feel that when
it comes to your own, like your own trajectory, know
whose shoulders you're standing on, and know like the accomplishment
that came before you. So I give her full credit
for educating me. Regarding mediums are born, They're not created.
(13:07):
So do I think everybody can develop their psychic ability? Yes?
Do I think everybody should develop their intuition in the
psychic ability, yes, I think they should do it to
the point of looking at life through an energetic lens.
For example, both my kids were raised this way. My
son's a doctor, he's going into cardiology. My daughter is
a singer, dancer, actress, writer, that's what she does, astrologer.
(13:31):
But even with her knowledge of astrology, getting her to
look at people's charts for me is like an ordeal.
It's not her calling. She could do it, but it's
not her calling. But that mediums are indeed born, people
are born to do this, and that not everybody should
do readings for other people, because once you walk through
(13:54):
that door, you're now dealing with a different level of
karmic interaction with the universe. The level of the level
of ethics and responsibility that come into play your life
will never be the same. So I'm always the person
that when i'm training someone, hor I know that I'm
talking to somebody who's in development, in training, I will
say to them, are you sure you want to go
(14:15):
down this path? Because once you go down this path,
and once you gain this knowledge, and once you understand
universally how things work, you're going to be looked at,
judged or graded. However you want to phrase that differently,
because you know better now, So you can't go well,
I didn't know, because Yate did. You did know. So
do I think that everybody can develop? I do, and
(14:37):
I think they should. As you know, you talked about Infinitequest,
which is a book that I wrote. I did a
series called Project You. I have that on avall plus
and I want people to do it, but I don't
make the leap into doing it for other people so easily.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, I mean heavy as the crown right, kind of
like you said, once you start walking into that world.
There's a whole another layer of things and beings and
energies that you're dealing with. And so that's what I
love so much about infinite quests. You talk about the
ethics of that, and I want to get into that
in just a second, but I will say when I
was first researching for this podcast, it's still coming up online.
(15:17):
Just how maybe skeptic people are or that you know
that this just isn't scientific. There's a lot of religion
type I don't know, people are businesses that will speak
against psychics directly. So why do you think this is
one of the things that is still in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Five so highly skeptical.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
There's so many people who are highly skeptical, But then
there's also so many people who are leaning more into
it and it's such a guiding force in their life. Yes,
he's holding up his cell phone. What do you mean
by that?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Well, I think that people are not looking towards experts
in the same way as they once used to. I
think people are now getting a false sense of education
and empowerment because the algorithm is pushing information to them
based upon their interests. So, you know, we just went
(16:14):
through a period of time where it was the I
don't know, third, fourth, fifth, sixth time the rapture was
supposed to be happening, right, and now it hasn't happened.
And so instead of people going, oh, I've been duped,
this was a man made thing that got created and
oh it spawned an industry of books called the Left
Behind series and movies and whatever. They go to the
(16:35):
place of, well, we're going to move the goalpost. We're
going to move it to the next date. What will
the next date of the rapture be? Right? So I
think whether we're talking about and I'll try not to
get agitated with this one because it's my background in
healthcare and public health and all that stuff. When you
are taking information from people that are online that don't
(16:55):
have letters in front or after their name when it
comes to healthcare or science, and you are now going
to make bold faced, inaccurate statements that can affect the
health and well being of other people, that's dangerous. So
what they're doing it about religion, politics or whatever. Everybody
has this false sense of intelligence or accuracy of their
(17:18):
own of what they know, and like I can have
a really healthy conversation about astrology with an astrologer. I
can make it sound like I can do astrology because
I know a lot, but I'm not an astrologer. Right
at a certain point, I'm gonna say, Kelly, you need
to go to an astrologer because be able to take
(17:39):
you to the next place and to the next level.
And they're going to explain all of these things. Oh
and by the way, they're going to give you the
math behind it. They're going to tell you how they
got there. They're going to tell you what it means
on a level that I can only superficially kind of
give you a window into that. So, whether it's science
or astrology or this subject matter, it makes me very,
(18:01):
very concerned that people are empowered with ignorance. They're empowered
by arrogance of what they think they know when they don't.
So now that being said, I want to also be
very clear I was that person to a degree when
I was a kid. When I was fifteen, I did
(18:21):
debunk people who did this work when they came to
my grandmother's house, which was quite often. I did make
fun of the people, you know, I did have those
conversations with the relatives that went in for the readings
and came out and going like, how do you believe this?
Like for real, like seriously explain to why you believe this.
Somebody's flipping over a couple of cards and they're giving
you an opinion based upon you know, like what exactly.
(18:45):
And I was condescending and I was negative. But I
also blame it on my youth. I blame it on
a youthful ego. I blame it on my ignorance and
arrogance of being a fifteen year old kid. But then
as I learned, as I studied, Wow, did I recognize
how much I didn't know? Somebody once said that I
was a kid. I used to think I have all
(19:07):
the answers, and now I'm just trying to figure out
what questions to ask.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Hmmm, that is good.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I always say the older I get, the less I know,
But that is actually that more accurate way to say it.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, it was such a profound statement. It was my
cousin's ex mother in law. Her name is March, and
as we were walking through Disney Village in Orlando, Florida,
She's randomly turned to me, looked at me. She's like,
I'm so old now that you know she goes, I
used to think I knew I had all the answers,
and she goes, now, I'm just trying to figure out
which questions to ask. Yeah, and it hit as a kid,
it's like, that's kind of profound.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, if people listening want to do this kind of
work but they're scared. What I'm noticing online is it's
almost like the louder the voice, which to me often
can be ego, the more praise they're getting, followers, all
the things, And so how do we differentiate between that
and a person who is truly doing the work that
(20:00):
we can trust and be open to.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
You need to listen through the ear of ego. You
need to listen through the through the ear of ego,
meaning what is this person's intention, like, what is their intention?
Like if you asked me at sixteen what my intention was,
then you as my intention is. My intention has never shifted.
My intention has never changed. I want to help people.
I want to IMpower. I remember being sixteen years old
(20:25):
and you know, somebody was leaving my my My office
was my grandma's back room, my you know, my backroom,
and she said, when can I do this again? And
I remember thinking well, I just read you, like I
like like the like I just read you. I was like,
I don't know, like maybe like six months a year
from now.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And then when the woman left, my grandma said to me,
why are you telling people not to come see you.
I was like, well, I just read her like, let
some life happen. Let's like, let some stuff happen. Yeah,
And she was like, yeah, but you're gonna You're gonna
have no business. I'm like, I'm really not really worried
about the business part of it. And that's just it.
(21:05):
I was about business. I was never worried about the
finances of it. I mean I've had I've had, case
in point, doing Crossing Over, I had to read celebrities
and they told me that I had to read for
Joan Rivers. And right before the week I was supposed
to read for Joan Rivers, the e true Hollywood story
(21:26):
of Joan Rivers came out and I had watched it.
Actually I had watched it first. Then I found out
that I had to read Joan Rivers and I made
them cancel it. I legit made them cancel it. And
the celebrity booker, her name was Laurie Levine. She was like,
are you out of your mind? She was like you,
it's Joan Rivers. I'm like, I can't do it. I
(21:47):
was like, I'm going to be in my head. I
was like, I can't do it, and she was funny.
Joan was actually gracious. She was like, I appreciate that.
Tell the kid, I appreciate it, and he owes me
a f and reading she did later collect on first sure,
something else, but I feel like, you know, when you
(22:08):
are embarking on an intuitive journey, what is the reason
why you're embarking on it? You want to be able
to do, in my opinion, have the most evolved life
that you can that you came into this incarnation to learn,
and what are the lessons right, because ultimately that's why
we're here, Like this is the classroom. The physical world
is the classroom? Are we learning your lessons? And if
(22:30):
you feel if you're listening to this right now and
you feel stuck or stagnant and you're uncertain as if
you're learning your lessons, well, this medium is going to
tell you to grab your astrological chart done, because they're
going to be able to look at your natal chart
versus where you are today, and they're going to be
able to say, Okay, well here's where your lessons are. Well,
here's what you're working on. Here's why you're feeling the
way you're feeling. Whenever somebody has a tremendous tragic loss,
(22:54):
sure I can connect with the person who's passed. I
can have that conversation, and for the time that work together,
I could show you that there's a survival of consciousness
and life and love were eternal. But guess what, your
grief doesn't go away. It stays and you got to
work on it. And then people want to know, but why,
Well have you astrological shart done? And look at the
(23:15):
day and time of that person passed in your own chart,
and you'll find the butt why in that moment, there's
some lesson that's there. So I like to look at
the bigger picture. But to go back to the skeptical
side of it, I always want people to be skeptical
and I always want them to thinkers about what they're experiencing.
And if you're looking for somebody who's good at what
(23:36):
they do, it shouldn't be about their following account. It
doesn't matter books or TV. And I remember when I
took the stage at Crossing Over. Every day when I
walked out to film that show, I remember thinking of
every person out there that was doing the same work,
whether it be taro, astrology, whatever it was that they
were doing, And I felt like I took the stage
(23:59):
for the work, for the field, not for John Edward,
but for the subject matter. That was my intention. So
I think it's very very important for people to recognize
within themselves what's their motivation and their intention, and if
it's to make money, and that's what your job is
right from the get go, I think you fail.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I was doing this work for a long time before
I left my actual career full time.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So you were still working when you first started doing
psychic readings.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Got yah? I started doing Okay, So I started doing
readings at fifteen.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
I was in high school all through college. I was
in a master's I was in an accelerated program to
get a master's degree in healthcare and public administration. So
that's what my trajectory was. I was working in a hospital.
I was staying working in the hospital. I got married
and my wife said to me, why are you killing yourself?
She's like you're working full time at the hospital. She's like,
(24:56):
and then you're technically working full time doing readings. Why
don't you just do the readings? And I remember thinking,
like for my career, no, I'm like absolutely not. I
was like not happening. And she's like, no, I'm just saying.
She's like, you should, you should totally. I was like,
you shouldn't be thinking that, Like you should be wanting
me to have like real secure job, right. And I
(25:19):
say this openly, if there wasn't a Sandra, there would
not have been a John Edward, because she was the
person who was supportive of me leaving my hospital job
to pursue this work full time with complete and unabashed
support without blinking an eye. And I remember thinking like,
that's not normal, Like you should have been concerned. How
(25:41):
are we gonna pay a mortgage? And all she said
to me was I know you you'd find a way. She said,
if you had to go work at a deli, she goes,
you would do work at a Delhi. She goes, your
work ethic is like, you know, ridiculous. So she's like concerned,
she goes, what I was concerned about was you being happy?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
That is a good wife. We talked about infinite quest
a little bit, and so much of the book is
about the ethics of being psychic, which immediately made me
trust you more because it felt like you do so
much work around that piece of it versus just pumping
out there, like here's how you get a reading all
(26:17):
the things we've just said. How do you balance that
responsibility with maybe some of the stuff that you're getting
about people, or just the responsibility of like the information
you might receive. Do you always feel like you need
to tell people? Or has there ever been a time
where you get something and the ethic part of your
(26:39):
psychic nature says to you, know, this is not the
right time for me to deliver that, Like how does
all of that work?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
So I think in any field you have to look
at the ethics and responsibility. Right with a lawyer or psychic, right,
you have to look at your delivery. My philosophy is
that if I'm getting this information, then there's a reason
why I'm getting it. It's not up to me to
censor it, but it is up to me on how
(27:07):
I'm going to deliver it. So whatever I see here
and feel, I'm going to say with the caveat of
knowing I'm not one hundred percent accurate and fastly misinterpret something.
So if I see something negative, I don't blurt out
something negative because what if it's not that? Like, what
if it's just not that? And I I have had
(27:30):
moments where I'm like, I know that this is going
to be negative. I'm not even wondering, like I know it,
like I see it and I know it. So what
I do is I deliver the information in a subtle way.
So you give you an example, Okay, it's how to drive.
And when you have a new driver in a car
(27:50):
and you're teaching them how to drive, it's nerve wracking.
I'm sure it's It is a dangerous thing for you,
for them and for anybody else on the road. Right,
So you don't want to freak them out while they're
behind of a car. You don't want them to You
don't want to cause an accident. You don't want to
cause something that's going to be negative. So even though
(28:12):
there are moments where I wanted to be like stop,
like I didn't want you know, like you want to
do that, you can't. So instead I would say things
in threes. I would go stop, stop stop, go go
go drive drive.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Drive, Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Give me the feeling like I was saying what I
needed to say without yelling stop, go drive you know,
turn turn, turn, And what it did was it made
them comfortable and made them receive the direction for me
sitting in the passenger seat. So if I'm helping somebody
drive in their lives, if I say, oh, there's gonna
(28:52):
be a you're gonna have cancer, that would be bad.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Instead of you know, yelling out you're gonna have cancer,
I will address their health. I will ask if there's
anything pre existing. I'll have a conversation about their blood work.
I'll say like, hey, have you had a physical reasonly?
Have you had something in this area before? Is there
anything going on there? About time I'm done with this reading,
(29:18):
I'm going to hit that subject matter probably about twenty
five times. So they're hearing it, They're just not hearing
it with fear, because if I give something with fear,
that might stop them from going to get that checked.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So basically, you're trying to lay the groundwork for them
to go get it checked.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Almost I'm trying to lay the groundwork for a person
to make empowered.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Choices, empowered choices. I love that.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Okay, Well, I was thinking about this and I think
you touched on this in an Infinite Quest as well.
But I would imagine mediumship comes with a lot of
positive feelings when you're delivering information, but then there's also
the things like you just mentioned and possibly scary information
or grief. How do you not take that on yourself?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
So psychic self defense is something I talk a lot
about when I'm teaching about the subject matter. Yeah, that
is a prophylactic measure that you take when you enter
somebody else's vibration so that you can actually swim in
their water without getting wet. It's pretty much the best
way I can say that. Consider it an energetic condom, right.
It allows you to have the experience and the feeling,
(30:23):
but you don't take stuff with you that is energetically
You never forget that.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
I will never forget that. That's perfect, and that.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Is a thing you need to do, like you need
to protect your energy, because you can other people's stuff
if you are not protected. So it is a conscious
decision and choice of when I'm going to be reading
what I'm not going to be reading. I'm never going
to enter someone's vibration without their consent. I'm not going
to be sitting on a plane, you know, next to
someone and then tuning into their energy. It's quite the opposite.
(30:54):
So when you I worked at a as a manager
adeli when I was a kid, and the owner of
the deli was OCD And if you were not with
a client, you were cleaning. Right. The deli was like spotless.
That's how he had a hatus and it was a
ingrained in me, clean clean, clean, clean clean. Then I
(31:15):
went and worked in healthcare in a laboratory. Well, guess what.
Now you're dealing with universal precautions and protecting your health.
And when you work in a laboratory there's a department
called microbiology, and all you got to do is like
walk through there at one or two times and see
how things grow, and that'll have an effect on your mindset. Right.
So going from the deli to hospitals, I'm a little
(31:38):
bit germophobic when it comes to like, you know, critters
out there. That being said, I'm energetically germophobic as well.
I don't want anybody's stuff, right, So if I'm talking
to somebody and they just had a fight, with their spouse,
and that's in their energy. Let's keep it there, like
I don't need that. It's like you wouldn't want to
have a conversation with somebody who's got really bad halatos.
(32:00):
You don't want to smell that. I don't want to
feel your bad energy. I'm very clear on protecting that.
So when you're developing your intuition, you want to have
a very strong, healthy boundary energetically of what you will
want to do. This is where the ego comes in.
That you're developing, the ego goes, oh my god, and
(32:22):
I talk about it as being your inner monster. Your
ego is the inner monster in development and entitlement is
what I refer to as it's bitch. So an ego
and entitlment moment coming together with development and somebody gets
stuck in that moment. Then they don't think they can
be wrong. Then they think that they can read whenever
(32:43):
they want. Then they think they can enter someone's vibration
with or without their consent, because why would you not
want me to do this? Look what I or the
power of love was so strong from the afterlife that
you know it moved me across the parking lot to
give a message to someone. No, it didn't. Your ego
moved you across the parking lot to get your message.
So it's really really important to understand all of this stuff.
(33:05):
And that is before you even talk to a client, right,
It's got to be the right time and place.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, I love this.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You also mentioned that you're wrong because being a psychic
is it's opened. It's human interpretation of something else, right,
And I think this a lot of times with all
the people we put on pedestals at churches or any
sort of leadership position. It's like, at the end of
the day, there's still humans on this human journey just
as we are, and so we're not going to get
(33:33):
everything right. But one of the big things that people
kind of buck back against the psychic stuff is, well,
they said this and it wasn't exact, or like time
being off or things like that.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
What would you say about that.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I'm going to tell you that the greatest gift I
was given in my development and I share this as
often as I possibly can. A woman that I studied
with named the Sandianna Staisy, and she said randomly when
I was like sixteen, you know, you don't always have
to be one hundred percent accurate because you don't. You
don't always have to be one hundred percent right. And
(34:08):
I remember being confused because you know, as a psychic,
you're supposed to be right right, but you have to
strive to be as close to one hundred percent accurate
as possible. Okay, And there is a very very fine
line between being right and being accurate. And here's the example.
Put me in a room with twenty people to read.
(34:32):
I will look like I'm one hundred percent right in
that room if I don't educate them about the process
and sometimes being what appears to be wrong when you
are getting as close to one hundred percent as accurate
as possible, meaning there will be things that are going
to come through in a reading that the client's not
(34:53):
going to know about yet because it hasn't happened. There's
things like my first interview with Bob hilland right when
he first aated me for that first murder case we
cover in Chasing Evil, he thought I was wrong because
I get the information that he did not have knowledge about.
(35:17):
I became one hundred percent accurate with him when he
talked to his parents outside of the reading. But what
if I didn't push that information, I wouldn't have been accurate.
So there's a fine line between being just right and
then being accurate, meaning sometimes you have to push the
envelope of your intuition and stick to the information that
(35:39):
you're getting when you are perceived wrong when you're not.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, yeah, well we have to talk about Chasing Evil now,
because we've touched on it enough, can you give the
listeners just kind of an overview of exactly what the
book is about before I dive into all my questions.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Sure. In nineteen ninety eight, an agent the FBI named
Robert hilland came to expose me as a calm and
a fraud and to have me arrested to prove out
legit because he heard me on local radio and it pissed
him off. That's the genesis of how we met.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Truly.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I love how much he did not want to believe
in the work that you do. To start the book like,
I love how skeptical he was, because I know my
very first psychic reading, I literally went to it with
so much skepticism that I was so excited to report
back to my friends after about how wrong it was
or how weird or hokey or anything like that. And
that was so the energy that Bob met you with.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
And he still has it to this day.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Oh, how is that possible?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
It's a really good, healthy sense of skepticism. Okay, as
an investigative mind, but so do I. Yeah, it's like
you could be skeptical about the process, you could be
skeptical about the people, you could be skeptical about what
it is that you're getting, because all that means is
that you're thinking, he's no longer cynical.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, that is a good distinction.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, you had said in the beginning of the book
there was a specific reason you never worked with police,
And I kind of always think about this with psychics too.
Why are more psychics not directly working with FBI police?
Like our political world right now, it feels like where
are the psychics? You know, why can't we just get
the answers that way? So what was your reasoning for
(37:22):
not wanting to do that kind of work?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
My father threatened me, He told me not to. My
dad was a New York City police officer and told
me not to one besmirch his name and to don't
ever let me find out you're working with the police
because he was a police officer, and I said it then,
I'll say it now. I have a great respect for
people who put their lives on the line to protect
other people who serve. He was on the job for
a number of years, and it was never something that
I felt a pull towards. Just wasn't my thing. Like
(37:47):
I enjoyed working with my clients. I had been pulled
into other cases along my path before I met Bob,
but not anything like official official. He was the official
for me, So what made you say, yes, my assistant,
can you tell us that story? He had called the
office and I only actually just found this out recently.
(38:11):
I thought he called the office multiple times. So in
one of our previous interviews, I had said, like, in
this guy called my office, like you know, so many times,
and deadpan, he just went no, I didn't, and to
a moment because it was like a live interview, and
I was like what oh, I thought after the fact,
I was like, you didn't call me like multiple times,
(38:32):
and he went no. He was like, hold you want.
It's really fascinating. It's because my assistant at the time
made it so urgent that that got translated to me.
Has multiple calls for some reason. So to me, I
feel like that was some other universal energy, kind of
like you know, sitting on me, going like yes, urgent,
you have to do this. Yeah, And I did, and
(38:54):
I treated it like every other client that I would
work with, you know, just say yes or no, don't
tell me anything. To give information. You're gonna understand some
of it you're not. I'm going to ask you to
write it down and be open to the process and
whatever I see here and feel, I'm going to tell
you what it means to me. If I talk about
people being above you, it's older to the side around
the same ageable who's going to be younger. I be
off by the names, but I won't be off by
what it sounds, and I won't be off by the
(39:15):
initial Do you have any questions? And he was like no, maybe.
Your assistant said, you know, sometimes you work with objects,
and I said, yeah, I do something called psychometry where
I could hold onto an object of something and I
could read the energy of the object. And then I
explained that there's two different types of psychometry. There's objective
psychometry and subjective psychometry. And for your listeners, please never
(39:36):
give a medium a photo of a person who's past,
and never give them an object that belonged to the
person who's past, because you can energetically feel sense and
pick up on the vibrations of that person and describe it.
No different than if you showed me your family photos
and they're all living. I could look at it and
I could see the energy the photo and describe it.
Doesn't mean I'm making a connection and have a conversation
(39:56):
with your relatives.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
He brought me nine items. I believe five of them
were legitimate from a case of a missing person, and
four of them were control items that he had took
taken from four different women in his office that he
put into the same type of uh, you know bags
for evidence evidence bags, And he laid them all out
in front of me as if they were all part
(40:18):
of the same case. And the first thing I did
was remove the four control item and say, I don't
know what these are. They have nothing to do with
your case. And that was pretty much the genesis of
our first meeting went. And then I started getting information
about not just the case and aspects that were going
to help him eventually on that case. But I wanted
making connections with his relatives, and information came through about
(40:42):
his family that he did not have access to, and
that kind of like flipped him out when he went
home and talked to his parents.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I love that he came in with the test and
you immediately passed it. I mean that did seem to
really lower his guard. I will say one of my
favorite parts of the entire book was watching his transformation,
and it was like his opening up and then he
even started to embrace things. I remember there's one part
of the book where you're talking about using sage and
(41:09):
then him tapping into his own intuition and kind of
speaking to the other side. What was that like for
you to witness.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Kind of really like cool, like a really journey. And
like I said, it's what I want for anybody when
they develop an understanding of the world of energy is
you're part of it, So navigate your world. Now he's
not after twenty five years of working directly with me
and me teaching him right technically, vicariously by working with me,
(41:41):
he's not doing readings. You know, he didn't he didn't
pick up the Gutaro cars. He's no longer he's he's
no local working with the FBI. But he's not doing readings.
He's he's still doing what he does in a different
capacity for the government. But the reality is his language
is different, his perspective is different. So therefore it shifts
the environment that he's working with and living through differently.
(42:02):
And that's the goal. Going back to the first question
of how do you know when you should be doing
readings for other people or how do you know like
you are just developing your intuition for yourself. He's another
great example.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
What is there a difference for you when you're doing
a reading with Joe Shmoe on the street versus when
you were working with him on these cases? Like were
you getting information in different ways it feel different to
you or was it all the same? And you, I mean,
there were so many times in the book you would
call him with such an urgency. How did that look?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
So there are a few people in my world, you know,
a couple of celebrities Bob family, that give me open
permission that if I ever get something about them that
I that I have their consent, that I can actually
you know, call them and say, hey, I'm feeling this
like you good, like everything okay? Otherwise I just don't
(42:57):
do that, and with him we kind of developed this banter,
you know, this kind of rapport where he gave me
permission and like, if you get anything else on this,
let me know. A lot of times they didn't, and
then a few times I did, you know, unexpectedly. You know,
there would be these moments where I would have this
(43:19):
sense of urgency to call him. You know, one case,
I was in Ireland getting ready to do I'm six
hours ahead of him, and I'm you know, getting ready
to go on stage and do an event and I'm
getting information on a case that was taking place at
Yale University. Another time, I just landed it close to
midnight in LaGuardia Airport in New York City after I
was on tour and got information and I was like, dude,
(43:42):
this has to happen now, Like you need to go
do this now. So we've had those moments and then
we have the equal and opposite moment where he's like,
you know this is really important, like you know, what
do you get And I'm like I'm not getting I'm
not getting anything. I'm so sorry, and he'd be like
why not. I'm like, I don't know, I'm late. If
I could answer that, I would tell you, I'd like,
(44:03):
I don't know. So if I had this, you know,
summarize why, I would say, it's probably because there's some
type of lesson, right, you know, And the book ends
on a on a very big lesson of his transformation.
And I remember, you know, when we were writing the book,
trying to figure out how we were gonna end it, like,
you know, how do we how do we end this
(44:25):
twenty five year you know, part one of our working relationship. Well,
the universe answered that question for us. And I don't
want to give anything away because I thought you're chasing
evil because the case that it begins with my journey
with him, not the book, but my journey with him
that that actually missing woman woman, it ends with a
(44:48):
pretty big I'm going to say, blow to his and
to the case legally, and that in that moment, when
that conversation he and I had, I very clearly saw
the ending of the book not from a criminal standpoint,
but from an energetic standpoint. And I think that journey
(45:11):
is the one that's probably the most profound, is that
oop journey going through this, And that's why I want
people to take away from this people like you know,
I was very open and very anxious about this book
coming out because I had agreed to help him. And
I said, listen, as long as my name's not used,
keep my name out of everything. And he was like,
no problem, I want to keep my job. So like
we had a great working relation. But when this book
(45:36):
was coming out, now the anxiety of all those years
of me being involved with this stuff and not talking
about it, you know, having a producer from crossing Over
calling me up and being like, oh my god, this
was going on while you were doing the show.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
I'm like, yep, it was going on while we're doing
the show. And she said to me, she was all
the attacks that you took back. Then she goes and
you could have just like whip this little factoid out
and been like, oh, yeah, well, by the way, here's this,
and he said, no. We both had a mutual agreement
that we were going to keep that under outs and
(46:15):
we did.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
And the book does end up kind of being a
spiritual book after all of the conversation of the crimes
and the investigations you guys were doing, but it becomes
about the lessons that you learned. One of the things
you said at the very end really hit me though.
It was something about the universe's justice system being so
(46:39):
much more profound and great than the one down here.
And sometimes, you know, I think I know me as
a person. If you know anything about astrology. I have
so much libra in my charts. I am big on justice,
like the balance, you know, and I'm just you do too, Okay.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
The libra I have, like I have a stellium and
libra me too.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
So that's the huge part of what matters to me.
And there's so many times in this lifetime where I
feel like, how is this not working out in the
way that I see would be justice? You know? Can
you talk a little bit about that and why you
think the universe has a better justice system than we
may ever know.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
So my guys gave me that says the analogy. Okay,
but you got to come to eighth grade science with me,
chemistry with miss Sullivan, and that was every chemical equation
gets balanced in the universe, right, Chemistry, it's all about
balancing the equation. So we are all chemistry. We are
all energy, so we are all equations, and all equations
(47:42):
in the universe get balanced, and we may not watch
that balance happen, but it's happening all around us as
we speak. So when you apply that to karma or justice,
we may feel in our human ego that earthly justice
(48:02):
has not been served. Kelly, I got a list. I
got a list that you and I could probably share
and cross cross reference and be like you got this one, yeah, yeah,
I got to I got this one in bold, And
then I just sit back and recognize that we can
only be responsible for driving our cars. I can't drive
the other people's cars. So as we drive, drive, drive,
(48:27):
we have to break, break, break before we crash into
something that's going to be damaging for us. And I
think when we get all too consumed by what we
perceive as justice must be served, then we actually become
myopic in our ability to operate within the confines of
(48:47):
the universe we're living in. So my God just told me.
They just said that the justice system to the universe,
you know, pales and compare the justice systems of Earth
pales in comparison to the justice system of the universe.
So we may not we see people get what we
think is their due, but rest assured that they do.
That is the professional side of me answering. The personal
(49:09):
side has a list. I'm like Aria Stark Game of Thrones,
like I haven't not I could separate the personal side
and the professional side, and the personal start well by
the way, I have a scorpio rising if that helps.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Oh yeah, that for sure, fellow us. You really like
revenge and things like that.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
A sun, libra, scorpio rising moon and aquarius so not
only wow, I can detach my emotions from from all
of that, which gives me the ability to do what
I do as well.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
I could be surgical about my readings.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Yeah, because that was so much in the book. You
would not attach emotionally. I would be sobbing with the
stuff you were saying, Like it was I'm a Piscy's
moon if that says anything for you, But like it's
it felt so big and heavy, and these conversations are hard, right,
and you would be able to deliver the information that
he needed without any sort of a emotional tie to it,
so then he could go do his job.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
The only time I had a hard time was with
the little boy Noah. Yeah, that was a tough one
because the daddy and me kicked in.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, but it's so to your point about the justice.
If you guys had focused on what you thought justice
needed to be with the cases in the book, you
would have missed the lessons that were being presented to
you on your own journey, both of you. It seems
like from all of the experiences you had together.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
Yes, yeah, I think it's all about the lesson. Yeah,
everything's about the lesson. And I literally, I mean I
can go in any area of my life, in any
year of my life, I could legitimately tell you that
my probably biggest question always is what am I supposed
(50:49):
to learn from this? So I don't got to do
this anymore. I got to learn from this. To the stops,
I got to learn this. I got to repeat, like,
what have I got to learn from this? Is a
really big question that people should really should should ask them.
Oh and by the way, guess what, news flash, just
because you asked a question, and just because you recognize
what the lesson is, the universe is really good at
(51:11):
giving pop quizzes, really really really good. So for anybody
that's listening who's done the work, and I mean legitimately
you've done your work, you've done your charts, you may
have done therapy, you've done your human design, you've feng shwayed,
you've reiki, you've done all the things right, and you're
now moving on to the next level. And you're ready
(51:33):
for what the next level is. But let's say that
your past pattern was getting involved with somebody who had
addiction issues. Right, the universe sends this amazing person into
your life, and you're the happiest you've ever been. Person
doesn't drink, person's never done recreational drugs. You're like win
or Winner. This is amazing. Two years into the relationship,
(51:55):
you wind up finding they have a gambling problem. So
the addiction issue came out some The universe gives you
a pop quiz and they say, hey, yeah, did you
learn your lesson? Oh no, you didn't learn your lesson. Okay,
So now you're back in school with this person. We'll
check them, see how you know remedial addiction. Human ego
one oh one's going for you, and hopefully you'll be
(52:18):
able to remember all the things that you went through,
and hopefully you'll be able to evolve through this moment
and get back to the empowered version of the life.
You were living.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yeah, I always say on this podcast with the listeners,
what is it here to teach me? That's what we
talk about all the time, and it's the same thing.
So if you could leave people maybe with one message
just of navigating kind of the light and the dark
sides of life, because we're all going to you know,
I always say life is like a quarkscrew, like we're
always going to be going up and down.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
What would that be?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
I always want people to at their core communicate with
the people that are in their lives right now, openly
and honestly about how they feel because sometimes you know,
I promise tomorrow, and so many people that sit in
front of me just want to know that their loved
ones and friends know that they love them, know that
they appreciated them. So I think that's a really really
(53:11):
big one. I mean, we can talk about positive and
negative and lessons and all that kind of stuff, but
at the most boiled down, if it's one thing, it's
let people in your life know that you love them,
that you appreciate them. I think that's really important because
so many people don't get that opportunity, or they just
were living their lives and they missed that opportunity, always
thinking like oh, I've got you know tomorrow, or they
(53:33):
know this until they're not here, and then you wonder,
I'm my god, did they know this? I never said this,
and say the things, and by the way, I mean
say all the things like if somebody's pissing you off,
tell them, tell them and tell them why have the
conversation about it, you know, And if you're dealing with kids,
do it with kids as well. You know. I started
with my kids very very young, where I would say, hey,
(53:54):
in case I get abducted by aliens, I want you
to know this, and they would giggle about the alien's part.
But then the conversation that took place after that was
always something profound. So I think, don't waste time because
so you can't get back when spent, and that's time
and money. And don't waste other people's time and money
because two things you can't get back are are time
(54:16):
and money. So I think communicate, appreciate, and validate the
people in your lives today. So that, as I always
said on crossing over a meeting, like myself isn't who
you're sitting in front of hoping to hear it hoping.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, John Edward, thank you so much for being here.
The book is called Chasing Evil. I will put all
of the links to all of John's books and Evolve
Plus I just joined. I'm so excited, so I'll put
all of that in the description of this podcast. For
you guys, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
This was an amazing experience for me, so thank you
for having me. If anybody wants to join Evolve Plus
Yeah on TV, go to the web version and cookie
two zero two five, cookie to zero two and that'll
deep discount if your listeners.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Oh amazing. Okay, I will put that in the description
as well. For you guys, thank you so much again,
it was so lovely meeting you.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Appreciate it. Good luck out there.
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that it would be
safe to say that you guys already know that I
have always been fascinated by the unseen because I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Such a feeler.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You know. It's the things we can feel but we
just can't always explain. So when I first came across
John Edward years ago, I was instantly curious. You probably
remember him from a show Crossing Over, which brought the
world of psychic mediums into the mainstream. The nature of
what he does, though, it's always sparked conversation and debate,
and somehow through it all he has built an incredibly
(00:43):
respected and long standing career helping people connect with love.
One two have past, and somehow in the meantime he
has become a multi best selling author. His book Infinite
Quest was actually one of the first that taught me
how to protect my own energy as a highly sun person.
He also dives deep into the ethics of doing psychic
(01:04):
work in that book, which to me is not talked
about enough and is so important in one of the
reasons I respect him so much. He's back now with
a new book called Chasing Evil, which explores his work
alongside the FBI. Let's say it's where intuition meets criminal investigation.
So in this conversation we get into all of it,
(01:24):
the dark and the light sides of human nature and
what happens when we let intuition lead the way. So
we were talking before the podcast and I said, we
have a mutual connection in Bonnie Hammer. She was actually
just on the podcast recently. Some my listeners are very familiar,
and I have to tell you the backstory with all
(01:45):
of this. I had a friend recommend Infinite Quest to me.
This was probably six to eight months ago, and it
was just because of some things that I was going through,
and she was like, you should read this book, like
it's really going to help you. I had obviously heard
of you and I knew of your work, but I
hadn't read any of the books yet. And so I
started reading this book and I was just completely geeking out,
(02:05):
loving everything you were saying, and I said, I have
to have him on the podcast. Like I just got
really excited about it. But of course I had no
idea how to get in touch with you. So I
send a DM and then I see you on your page.
You don't respond to dms or ever. DM people, So
I was like, well, shoot, okay, I'm just gonna sit
with this for a minute. So a couple months goes
by Bonnie Hammers, I guess it was her publicist reaches
(02:28):
out to me and she has a book that's coming out,
and so of course I was like thrilled to have
her on the podcast as well. I was also on
a show via NBC Universal, so we had a connection,
but I had no idea she had been probably your
biggest advocate for your show back in the day. So
she comes on the podcast and kind of nonchalantly in
(02:49):
a story she was telling mention to you, and I thought,
oh my god, this is how I connect with John Edward.
This is like one of those real roundabout, weird ways.
So I waited a little bit on that and then
reached out to her people because I didn't I felt
was like, is this overstepping you know, I never want
to like abuse the connections that I have or whatever.
(03:10):
But they were so great about it. They reached out
to you, We got connected via email. It was so easy,
and then it just validated for me if things are
meant for you, they will find you, like we cannot
miss them.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
So isn't that kind of a weird story.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I kind of liked that the I like how that
came about.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, Yeah, it felt good to me too that it
was such a surprise, because that, to me says it's
no mistake at all.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Bonnie's a powerhouse, So there's a I have a very
special place for her. Her birthday is the day before
my mom's birthday. She had a very metriarchal vibe with me,
well not that far off an age, the way that
she you know, treated me and shepherded Crossing it Over
(03:58):
and and me personally and professionally. I have a great
deal of gratitude to her.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, I mean even her powerhouse is the exact word
I would use.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That was such.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
She was such an inspiration to me as a woman
in business, and because of I think her growth through
the years.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
She spoke a lot to.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
My listeners about not neglecting your empathy, your compassion, and
all of the spiritual things we talk about on this
podcast within being a leader, which I just respect so much.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I have some very fond memories of like when my
first season of Crossing Over started, I was an executive producer,
but I didn't really use the title, because I felt
like I'd never produced television before. How do I how
do I say I'm an executive producer? So I don't
believe in the first season it was even on the
(04:51):
on screen like that he had even said that. I
very quickly, after the first thirteen weeks of doing Crossing Over,
learned what the role was and the position was, and
what my position needed to be within that. And I
remember there's something called was it TSA or the Television
Critics TCA? It was TCA, and I wanted to make
(05:12):
some changes. So Bonnie and I had a lunch and
I said, Hey, I'm I'm an executive producer on the show,
and she said you are. I said, so I could
like make like the executive producer kind of like decisions,
and she said, I went, so, I think I want
to make some changes. All she said to me was
(05:32):
tell me when they're done.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So she just let you have the freedom.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Tell me when they're done.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Wow, yep wow.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
And then equally when she met me, she met me
at a local hotel ballroom. You know, I was wearing
T shirt and jeans, and when I started doing the show,
all of a sudden, like your idea of what you
think you should be doing, you know, kicks in and
I wanted to wear my GLFE on television so I
(06:02):
looked more erudite in my field. And I wanted to
wear a suit so that people would take me seriously
because I felt like I should be dressed and I
wanted a co host. I didn't want to do the
TV stuff. And one of the filming days happened to
be the day that I'm wearing a suit, wearing my
glasses and we were trying out a co host and
(06:23):
Ms Hammer was in the control room and she stopped production,
called me into the office or the control room and
basically said to me, what are you doing. This is
not what we discussed. She goes, You're gonna have to
get your butt upstairs. I want your suit off, I
want your contacts in. I want the guy that I
(06:43):
saw in the hotel ballroom. That's what I want. And
no co host, you don't need one? Yeah, no, I
need one, And she was like, don't need one. So
he earned her last name that day. She brought the
hammer down. Yes read it, and you know she had
the vision of what she wanted it to be, which
was based upon my event. And I, you know, I
(07:05):
was dressed very comfortably at my event, and I you know,
had my contacts in and there was clearly no co
host at my own event. So she was she was correct,
and that's why she's who she is, and that's why
she's had the success.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
And absolutely, and.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I loved your podcast. I listened to the podcast with hers.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Thank you so much the hammer. I love that bringing
in the hammer, but also she just saw you authentically
and wanted you to be yourself, which is completely a
part of her skill set that I respect so much
as well. Well, I told you before we started, I
want to jump into just a couple of basics psychet
questions that I'm sure you've answered a million times in
your lifetime, but I know my listeners would love to hear.
(07:42):
And then we do want to talk about You have
a new book out called Chasing Evil that I finished
and when I tell you, I could not put it down.
I listened to it on an audiobook and I felt
like it was one of those people that's like obsessed
with Dateline or something, constantly watching it is it will
hook you. That book is so good, So I can't
wait to talk about that either. But before we start.
I know in both books that I've read of yours,
(08:03):
and so I'm assuming this is something you say consistently.
You say that everyone has psychic abilities and intuition. So
what is the difference between someone just having a strong
intuition and someone who should be doing reading psychically?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Ooh, I like how you phrase that. Okay, very very
different question than people normally would ask me. So there's
no difference between intuition and psychic ability. They're one of
the same. This anonymous, Okay, there is a difference between
I think people who should do it for other people. Yeah,
I think that you are called to do this for
other people. So let me take you back to the
(08:40):
University of Arizona studies that I was part of. It
called the Afterlife Experiments, where myself and a number of
other mediums were being tested.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I want to say it was the second Maybe it
was a second time we were out there doing these
double blind studies. And for those that understand science, every
time you do anything scientific, you have to basically repeat
and extend what you did. So you repeat the previous
test and then you extend to see how far you
can kind of like, you know, push the data. Okay,
(09:08):
we're there for the second I want to say it's
the second time. It might have been the third study,
because I was out there for four times, three official
and one unofficial. And the scientific moderators came into the
room where the mediums were sitting, and opposite me was
a woman named Susanne Northrope. Susan Northrop is a colleague
of mine. She's also from New York. She's probably got
ten years on me experience wise when it comes to
(09:29):
doing mediumship, if not fifteen. And I've known her since
I'm legitimately like sixteen years old, right, That's how this woman.
So I know her a long time, forty years. And
she's sitting in front of me and to our left.
The scientific moderators come in and said, hey, I'm just curious.
You can teach this like you guys can teach people
to be mediums. I said yes, she said no. So
(09:55):
we had this moment while I had this moment of
like I felt completely awkward because I'm like, what do
you what do you mean? And she said emphatically, mediums
are born, they are not created. And I politely was like, Suzanne,
(10:15):
you teach about the subject matter like you teach workshops?
What do you mean? Like, you know, you've got like
books that you've written about educating people about the subject matter.
And I didn't want to, like, you know, call her
out and be like what do you what do you mean? Right?
So she she said, I will say that again. Mediums
(10:36):
are born, they're not created. So we had this like
minor psych off in front of the scientific moderators, you know,
And then when they walked out, I looked at her
and I was like, how could you say that like
you teach workshops? Like why would you like you saw
classes like you educate and lecture people all the time,
You've written books like.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Right, make that make sense?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Oh? And she looked me dead pan in the face
again and said mediums are born, they're not created. So
let's say that was in nineteen ninety nine ish or
two thousands somewhere around there. I just I agreed to
disagree with her. Then crossing over happened. And when crossing
(11:19):
over happened, it blew the roof off of the subject matter,
and everybody and their brother started becoming psychic mediums all
of a sudden. It was like there went people who
did taro there went the people who did astrology, There
went the people who did regular psychic readings or numerology.
Even there were no more psychometrists or pomists. Everybody was
(11:43):
a psychic medium. And I remember saying to Susanne after
the fact, because she had set me and I still
have it to this day. She sent me this amazing
stuffed bear. When you squeeze it, it has her voice
inside saying congratulations, I'm so proud of what you're doing
for the work.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, it was such a it was a really heartfelt moment.
And like I said, it's all these years later, it's
twenty five years later, I still have it. I got it.
I got it in that moment what she meant, because
anybody could say that they're a psychic medium and use
their intuitive ability and attempt to do mediumship, but the
reality is when you're called upon to do this, you're
(12:23):
called upon to do this. And I didn't have the
experience that I needed to answer the question in the
way that she did. So I'm always very deferential to
the people who come before me. I always want to
give the props to the shar Margolises, the George Anderson,
the Suzanne Northropes, the people who were doing this way
before there was a John Edward. And I think what's
(12:45):
important is to always learn from above so that you
can teach below, right, So in astrology, to talk about
as above so below. I kind of feel that when
it comes to your own, like your own trajectory, know
whose shoulders you're standing on, and know like the accomplishment
that came before you. So I give her full credit
for educating me. Regarding mediums are born, They're not created.
(13:07):
So do I think everybody can develop their psychic ability? Yes?
Do I think everybody should develop their intuition in the
psychic ability, yes, I think they should do it to
the point of looking at life through an energetic lens.
For example, both my kids were raised this way. My
son's a doctor, he's going into cardiology. My daughter is
a singer, dancer, actress, writer, that's what she does, astrologer.
(13:31):
But even with her knowledge of astrology, getting her to
look at people's charts for me is like an ordeal.
It's not her calling. She could do it, but it's
not her calling. But that mediums are indeed born, people
are born to do this, and that not everybody should
do readings for other people, because once you walk through
(13:54):
that door, you're now dealing with a different level of
karmic interaction with the universe. The level of the level
of ethics and responsibility that come into play your life
will never be the same. So I'm always the person
that when i'm training someone, hor I know that I'm
talking to somebody who's in development, in training, I will
say to them, are you sure you want to go
(14:15):
down this path? Because once you go down this path,
and once you gain this knowledge, and once you understand
universally how things work, you're going to be looked at,
judged or graded. However you want to phrase that differently,
because you know better now, So you can't go well,
I didn't know, because Yate did. You did know. So
do I think that everybody can develop? I do, and
(14:37):
I think they should. As you know, you talked about Infinitequest,
which is a book that I wrote. I did a
series called Project You. I have that on avall plus
and I want people to do it, but I don't
make the leap into doing it for other people so easily.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, I mean heavy as the crown right, kind of
like you said, once you start walking into that world.
There's a whole another layer of things and beings and
energies that you're dealing with. And so that's what I
love so much about infinite quests. You talk about the
ethics of that, and I want to get into that
in just a second, but I will say when I
was first researching for this podcast, it's still coming up online.
(15:17):
Just how maybe skeptic people are or that you know
that this just isn't scientific. There's a lot of religion
type I don't know, people are businesses that will speak
against psychics directly. So why do you think this is
one of the things that is still in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Five so highly skeptical.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
There's so many people who are highly skeptical, But then
there's also so many people who are leaning more into
it and it's such a guiding force in their life. Yes,
he's holding up his cell phone. What do you mean
by that?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Well, I think that people are not looking towards experts
in the same way as they once used to. I
think people are now getting a false sense of education
and empowerment because the algorithm is pushing information to them
based upon their interests. So, you know, we just went
(16:14):
through a period of time where it was the I
don't know, third, fourth, fifth, sixth time the rapture was
supposed to be happening, right, and now it hasn't happened.
And so instead of people going, oh, I've been duped,
this was a man made thing that got created and
oh it spawned an industry of books called the Left
Behind series and movies and whatever. They go to the
(16:35):
place of, well, we're going to move the goalpost. We're
going to move it to the next date. What will
the next date of the rapture be? Right? So I
think whether we're talking about and I'll try not to
get agitated with this one because it's my background in
healthcare and public health and all that stuff. When you
are taking information from people that are online that don't
(16:55):
have letters in front or after their name when it
comes to healthcare or science, and you are now going
to make bold faced, inaccurate statements that can affect the
health and well being of other people, that's dangerous. So
what they're doing it about religion, politics or whatever. Everybody
has this false sense of intelligence or accuracy of their
(17:18):
own of what they know, and like I can have
a really healthy conversation about astrology with an astrologer. I
can make it sound like I can do astrology because
I know a lot, but I'm not an astrologer. Right
at a certain point, I'm gonna say, Kelly, you need
to go to an astrologer because be able to take
(17:39):
you to the next place and to the next level.
And they're going to explain all of these things. Oh
and by the way, they're going to give you the
math behind it. They're going to tell you how they
got there. They're going to tell you what it means
on a level that I can only superficially kind of
give you a window into that. So, whether it's science
or astrology or this subject matter, it makes me very,
(18:01):
very concerned that people are empowered with ignorance. They're empowered
by arrogance of what they think they know when they don't.
So now that being said, I want to also be
very clear I was that person to a degree when
I was a kid. When I was fifteen, I did
(18:21):
debunk people who did this work when they came to
my grandmother's house, which was quite often. I did make
fun of the people, you know, I did have those
conversations with the relatives that went in for the readings
and came out and going like, how do you believe this?
Like for real, like seriously explain to why you believe this.
Somebody's flipping over a couple of cards and they're giving
you an opinion based upon you know, like what exactly.
(18:45):
And I was condescending and I was negative. But I
also blame it on my youth. I blame it on
a youthful ego. I blame it on my ignorance and
arrogance of being a fifteen year old kid. But then
as I learned, as I studied, Wow, did I recognize
how much I didn't know? Somebody once said that I
was a kid. I used to think I have all
(19:07):
the answers, and now I'm just trying to figure out
what questions to ask.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Hmmm, that is good.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I always say the older I get, the less I know,
But that is actually that more accurate way to say it.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, it was such a profound statement. It was my
cousin's ex mother in law. Her name is March, and
as we were walking through Disney Village in Orlando, Florida,
She's randomly turned to me, looked at me. She's like,
I'm so old now that you know she goes, I
used to think I knew I had all the answers,
and she goes, now, I'm just trying to figure out
which questions to ask. Yeah, and it hit as a kid,
it's like, that's kind of profound.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, if people listening want to do this kind of
work but they're scared. What I'm noticing online is it's
almost like the louder the voice, which to me often
can be ego, the more praise they're getting, followers, all
the things, And so how do we differentiate between that
and a person who is truly doing the work that
(20:00):
we can trust and be open to.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
You need to listen through the ear of ego. You
need to listen through the through the ear of ego,
meaning what is this person's intention, like, what is their intention?
Like if you asked me at sixteen what my intention was,
then you as my intention is. My intention has never shifted.
My intention has never changed. I want to help people.
I want to IMpower. I remember being sixteen years old
(20:25):
and you know, somebody was leaving my my My office
was my grandma's back room, my you know, my backroom,
and she said, when can I do this again? And
I remember thinking well, I just read you, like I
like like the like I just read you. I was like,
I don't know, like maybe like six months a year
from now.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And then when the woman left, my grandma said to me,
why are you telling people not to come see you.
I was like, well, I just read her like, let
some life happen. Let's like, let some stuff happen. Yeah,
And she was like, yeah, but you're gonna You're gonna
have no business. I'm like, I'm really not really worried
about the business part of it. And that's just it.
(21:05):
I was about business. I was never worried about the
finances of it. I mean I've had I've had, case
in point, doing Crossing Over, I had to read celebrities
and they told me that I had to read for
Joan Rivers. And right before the week I was supposed
to read for Joan Rivers, the e true Hollywood story
(21:26):
of Joan Rivers came out and I had watched it.
Actually I had watched it first. Then I found out
that I had to read Joan Rivers and I made
them cancel it. I legit made them cancel it. And
the celebrity booker, her name was Laurie Levine. She was like,
are you out of your mind? She was like you,
it's Joan Rivers. I'm like, I can't do it. I
(21:47):
was like, I'm going to be in my head. I
was like, I can't do it, and she was funny.
Joan was actually gracious. She was like, I appreciate that.
Tell the kid, I appreciate it, and he owes me
a f and reading she did later collect on first sure,
something else, but I feel like, you know, when you
(22:08):
are embarking on an intuitive journey, what is the reason
why you're embarking on it? You want to be able
to do, in my opinion, have the most evolved life
that you can that you came into this incarnation to learn,
and what are the lessons right, because ultimately that's why
we're here, Like this is the classroom. The physical world
is the classroom? Are we learning your lessons? And if
(22:30):
you feel if you're listening to this right now and
you feel stuck or stagnant and you're uncertain as if
you're learning your lessons, well, this medium is going to
tell you to grab your astrological chart done, because they're
going to be able to look at your natal chart
versus where you are today, and they're going to be
able to say, Okay, well here's where your lessons are. Well,
here's what you're working on. Here's why you're feeling the
way you're feeling. Whenever somebody has a tremendous tragic loss,
(22:54):
sure I can connect with the person who's passed. I
can have that conversation, and for the time that work together,
I could show you that there's a survival of consciousness
and life and love were eternal. But guess what, your
grief doesn't go away. It stays and you got to
work on it. And then people want to know, but why,
Well have you astrological shart done? And look at the
(23:15):
day and time of that person passed in your own chart,
and you'll find the butt why in that moment, there's
some lesson that's there. So I like to look at
the bigger picture. But to go back to the skeptical
side of it, I always want people to be skeptical
and I always want them to thinkers about what they're experiencing.
And if you're looking for somebody who's good at what
(23:36):
they do, it shouldn't be about their following account. It
doesn't matter books or TV. And I remember when I
took the stage at Crossing Over. Every day when I
walked out to film that show, I remember thinking of
every person out there that was doing the same work,
whether it be taro, astrology, whatever it was that they
were doing, And I felt like I took the stage
(23:59):
for the work, for the field, not for John Edward,
but for the subject matter. That was my intention. So
I think it's very very important for people to recognize
within themselves what's their motivation and their intention, and if
it's to make money, and that's what your job is
right from the get go, I think you fail.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I was doing this work for a long time before
I left my actual career full time.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So you were still working when you first started doing
psychic readings.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Got yah? I started doing Okay, So I started doing
readings at fifteen.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
I was in high school all through college. I was
in a master's I was in an accelerated program to
get a master's degree in healthcare and public administration. So
that's what my trajectory was. I was working in a hospital.
I was staying working in the hospital. I got married
and my wife said to me, why are you killing yourself?
She's like you're working full time at the hospital. She's like,
(24:56):
and then you're technically working full time doing readings. Why
don't you just do the readings? And I remember thinking,
like for my career, no, I'm like absolutely not. I
was like not happening. And she's like, no, I'm just saying.
She's like, you should, you should totally. I was like,
you shouldn't be thinking that, Like you should be wanting
me to have like real secure job, right. And I
(25:19):
say this openly, if there wasn't a Sandra, there would
not have been a John Edward, because she was the
person who was supportive of me leaving my hospital job
to pursue this work full time with complete and unabashed
support without blinking an eye. And I remember thinking like,
that's not normal, Like you should have been concerned. How
(25:41):
are we gonna pay a mortgage? And all she said
to me was I know you you'd find a way. She said,
if you had to go work at a deli, she goes,
you would do work at a Delhi. She goes, your
work ethic is like, you know, ridiculous. So she's like concerned,
she goes, what I was concerned about was you being happy?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
That is a good wife. We talked about infinite quest
a little bit, and so much of the book is
about the ethics of being psychic, which immediately made me
trust you more because it felt like you do so
much work around that piece of it versus just pumping
out there, like here's how you get a reading all
(26:17):
the things we've just said. How do you balance that
responsibility with maybe some of the stuff that you're getting
about people, or just the responsibility of like the information
you might receive. Do you always feel like you need
to tell people? Or has there ever been a time
where you get something and the ethic part of your
(26:39):
psychic nature says to you, know, this is not the
right time for me to deliver that, Like how does
all of that work?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
So I think in any field you have to look
at the ethics and responsibility. Right with a lawyer or psychic, right,
you have to look at your delivery. My philosophy is
that if I'm getting this information, then there's a reason
why I'm getting it. It's not up to me to
censor it, but it is up to me on how
(27:07):
I'm going to deliver it. So whatever I see here
and feel, I'm going to say with the caveat of
knowing I'm not one hundred percent accurate and fastly misinterpret something.
So if I see something negative, I don't blurt out
something negative because what if it's not that? Like, what
if it's just not that? And I I have had
(27:30):
moments where I'm like, I know that this is going
to be negative. I'm not even wondering, like I know it,
like I see it and I know it. So what
I do is I deliver the information in a subtle way.
So you give you an example, Okay, it's how to drive.
And when you have a new driver in a car
(27:50):
and you're teaching them how to drive, it's nerve wracking.
I'm sure it's It is a dangerous thing for you,
for them and for anybody else on the road. Right,
So you don't want to freak them out while they're
behind of a car. You don't want them to You
don't want to cause an accident. You don't want to
cause something that's going to be negative. So even though
(28:12):
there are moments where I wanted to be like stop,
like I didn't want you know, like you want to
do that, you can't. So instead I would say things
in threes. I would go stop, stop stop, go go
go drive drive.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Drive, Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Give me the feeling like I was saying what I
needed to say without yelling stop, go drive you know,
turn turn, turn, And what it did was it made
them comfortable and made them receive the direction for me
sitting in the passenger seat. So if I'm helping somebody
drive in their lives, if I say, oh, there's gonna
(28:52):
be a you're gonna have cancer, that would be bad.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Instead of you know, yelling out you're gonna have cancer,
I will address their health. I will ask if there's
anything pre existing. I'll have a conversation about their blood work.
I'll say like, hey, have you had a physical reasonly?
Have you had something in this area before? Is there
anything going on there? About time I'm done with this reading,
(29:18):
I'm going to hit that subject matter probably about twenty
five times. So they're hearing it, They're just not hearing
it with fear, because if I give something with fear,
that might stop them from going to get that checked.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So basically, you're trying to lay the groundwork for them
to go get it checked.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Almost I'm trying to lay the groundwork for a person
to make empowered.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Choices, empowered choices. I love that.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Okay, Well, I was thinking about this and I think
you touched on this in an Infinite Quest as well.
But I would imagine mediumship comes with a lot of
positive feelings when you're delivering information, but then there's also
the things like you just mentioned and possibly scary information
or grief. How do you not take that on yourself?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
So psychic self defense is something I talk a lot
about when I'm teaching about the subject matter. Yeah, that
is a prophylactic measure that you take when you enter
somebody else's vibration so that you can actually swim in
their water without getting wet. It's pretty much the best
way I can say that. Consider it an energetic condom, right.
It allows you to have the experience and the feeling,
(30:23):
but you don't take stuff with you that is energetically
You never forget that.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
I will never forget that. That's perfect, and that.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Is a thing you need to do, like you need
to protect your energy, because you can other people's stuff
if you are not protected. So it is a conscious
decision and choice of when I'm going to be reading
what I'm not going to be reading. I'm never going
to enter someone's vibration without their consent. I'm not going
to be sitting on a plane, you know, next to
someone and then tuning into their energy. It's quite the opposite.
(30:54):
So when you I worked at a as a manager
adeli when I was a kid, and the owner of
the deli was OCD And if you were not with
a client, you were cleaning. Right. The deli was like spotless.
That's how he had a hatus and it was a
ingrained in me, clean clean, clean, clean clean. Then I
(31:15):
went and worked in healthcare in a laboratory. Well, guess what.
Now you're dealing with universal precautions and protecting your health.
And when you work in a laboratory there's a department
called microbiology, and all you got to do is like
walk through there at one or two times and see
how things grow, and that'll have an effect on your mindset. Right.
So going from the deli to hospitals, I'm a little
(31:38):
bit germophobic when it comes to like, you know, critters
out there. That being said, I'm energetically germophobic as well.
I don't want anybody's stuff, right, So if I'm talking
to somebody and they just had a fight, with their spouse,
and that's in their energy. Let's keep it there, like
I don't need that. It's like you wouldn't want to
have a conversation with somebody who's got really bad halatos.
(32:00):
You don't want to smell that. I don't want to
feel your bad energy. I'm very clear on protecting that.
So when you're developing your intuition, you want to have
a very strong, healthy boundary energetically of what you will
want to do. This is where the ego comes in.
That you're developing, the ego goes, oh my god, and
(32:22):
I talk about it as being your inner monster. Your
ego is the inner monster in development and entitlement is
what I refer to as it's bitch. So an ego
and entitlment moment coming together with development and somebody gets
stuck in that moment. Then they don't think they can
be wrong. Then they think that they can read whenever
(32:43):
they want. Then they think they can enter someone's vibration
with or without their consent, because why would you not
want me to do this? Look what I or the
power of love was so strong from the afterlife that
you know it moved me across the parking lot to
give a message to someone. No, it didn't. Your ego
moved you across the parking lot to get your message.
So it's really really important to understand all of this stuff.
(33:05):
And that is before you even talk to a client, right,
It's got to be the right time and place.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, I love this.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You also mentioned that you're wrong because being a psychic
is it's opened. It's human interpretation of something else, right,
And I think this a lot of times with all
the people we put on pedestals at churches or any
sort of leadership position. It's like, at the end of
the day, there's still humans on this human journey just
as we are, and so we're not going to get
(33:33):
everything right. But one of the big things that people
kind of buck back against the psychic stuff is, well,
they said this and it wasn't exact, or like time
being off or things like that.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
What would you say about that.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I'm going to tell you that the greatest gift I
was given in my development and I share this as
often as I possibly can. A woman that I studied
with named the Sandianna Staisy, and she said randomly when
I was like sixteen, you know, you don't always have
to be one hundred percent accurate because you don't. You
don't always have to be one hundred percent right. And
(34:08):
I remember being confused because you know, as a psychic,
you're supposed to be right right, but you have to
strive to be as close to one hundred percent accurate
as possible. Okay, And there is a very very fine
line between being right and being accurate. And here's the example.
Put me in a room with twenty people to read.
(34:32):
I will look like I'm one hundred percent right in
that room if I don't educate them about the process
and sometimes being what appears to be wrong when you
are getting as close to one hundred percent as accurate
as possible, meaning there will be things that are going
to come through in a reading that the client's not
(34:53):
going to know about yet because it hasn't happened. There's
things like my first interview with Bob hilland right when
he first aated me for that first murder case we
cover in Chasing Evil, he thought I was wrong because
I get the information that he did not have knowledge about.
(35:17):
I became one hundred percent accurate with him when he
talked to his parents outside of the reading. But what
if I didn't push that information, I wouldn't have been accurate.
So there's a fine line between being just right and
then being accurate, meaning sometimes you have to push the
envelope of your intuition and stick to the information that
(35:39):
you're getting when you are perceived wrong when you're not.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, yeah, well we have to talk about Chasing Evil now,
because we've touched on it enough, can you give the
listeners just kind of an overview of exactly what the
book is about before I dive into all my questions.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Sure. In nineteen ninety eight, an agent the FBI named
Robert hilland came to expose me as a calm and
a fraud and to have me arrested to prove out
legit because he heard me on local radio and it pissed
him off. That's the genesis of how we met.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Truly.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I love how much he did not want to believe
in the work that you do. To start the book like,
I love how skeptical he was, because I know my
very first psychic reading, I literally went to it with
so much skepticism that I was so excited to report
back to my friends after about how wrong it was
or how weird or hokey or anything like that. And
that was so the energy that Bob met you with.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
And he still has it to this day.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Oh, how is that possible?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
It's a really good, healthy sense of skepticism. Okay, as
an investigative mind, but so do I. Yeah, it's like
you could be skeptical about the process, you could be
skeptical about the people, you could be skeptical about what
it is that you're getting, because all that means is
that you're thinking, he's no longer cynical.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, that is a good distinction.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, you had said in the beginning of the book
there was a specific reason you never worked with police,
And I kind of always think about this with psychics too.
Why are more psychics not directly working with FBI police?
Like our political world right now, it feels like where
are the psychics? You know, why can't we just get
the answers that way? So what was your reasoning for
(37:22):
not wanting to do that kind of work?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
My father threatened me, He told me not to. My
dad was a New York City police officer and told
me not to one besmirch his name and to don't
ever let me find out you're working with the police
because he was a police officer, and I said it then,
I'll say it now. I have a great respect for
people who put their lives on the line to protect
other people who serve. He was on the job for
a number of years, and it was never something that
I felt a pull towards. Just wasn't my thing. Like
(37:47):
I enjoyed working with my clients. I had been pulled
into other cases along my path before I met Bob,
but not anything like official official. He was the official
for me, So what made you say, yes, my assistant,
can you tell us that story? He had called the
office and I only actually just found this out recently.
(38:11):
I thought he called the office multiple times. So in
one of our previous interviews, I had said, like, in
this guy called my office, like you know, so many times,
and deadpan, he just went no, I didn't, and to
a moment because it was like a live interview, and
I was like what oh, I thought after the fact,
I was like, you didn't call me like multiple times,
(38:32):
and he went no. He was like, hold you want.
It's really fascinating. It's because my assistant at the time
made it so urgent that that got translated to me.
Has multiple calls for some reason. So to me, I
feel like that was some other universal energy, kind of
like you know, sitting on me, going like yes, urgent,
you have to do this. Yeah, And I did, and
(38:54):
I treated it like every other client that I would
work with, you know, just say yes or no, don't
tell me anything. To give information. You're gonna understand some
of it you're not. I'm going to ask you to
write it down and be open to the process and
whatever I see here and feel, I'm going to tell
you what it means to me. If I talk about
people being above you, it's older to the side around
the same ageable who's going to be younger. I be
off by the names, but I won't be off by
what it sounds, and I won't be off by the
(39:15):
initial Do you have any questions? And he was like no, maybe.
Your assistant said, you know, sometimes you work with objects,
and I said, yeah, I do something called psychometry where
I could hold onto an object of something and I
could read the energy of the object. And then I
explained that there's two different types of psychometry. There's objective
psychometry and subjective psychometry. And for your listeners, please never
(39:36):
give a medium a photo of a person who's past,
and never give them an object that belonged to the
person who's past, because you can energetically feel sense and
pick up on the vibrations of that person and describe it.
No different than if you showed me your family photos
and they're all living. I could look at it and
I could see the energy the photo and describe it.
Doesn't mean I'm making a connection and have a conversation
(39:56):
with your relatives.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
He brought me nine items. I believe five of them
were legitimate from a case of a missing person, and
four of them were control items that he had took
taken from four different women in his office that he
put into the same type of uh, you know bags
for evidence evidence bags, And he laid them all out
in front of me as if they were all part
(40:18):
of the same case. And the first thing I did
was remove the four control item and say, I don't
know what these are. They have nothing to do with
your case. And that was pretty much the genesis of
our first meeting went. And then I started getting information
about not just the case and aspects that were going
to help him eventually on that case. But I wanted
making connections with his relatives, and information came through about
(40:42):
his family that he did not have access to, and
that kind of like flipped him out when he went
home and talked to his parents.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I love that he came in with the test and
you immediately passed it. I mean that did seem to
really lower his guard. I will say one of my
favorite parts of the entire book was watching his transformation,
and it was like his opening up and then he
even started to embrace things. I remember there's one part
of the book where you're talking about using sage and
(41:09):
then him tapping into his own intuition and kind of
speaking to the other side. What was that like for
you to witness.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Kind of really like cool, like a really journey. And
like I said, it's what I want for anybody when
they develop an understanding of the world of energy is
you're part of it, So navigate your world. Now he's
not after twenty five years of working directly with me
and me teaching him right technically, vicariously by working with me,
(41:41):
he's not doing readings. You know, he didn't he didn't
pick up the Gutaro cars. He's no longer he's he's
no local working with the FBI. But he's not doing readings.
He's he's still doing what he does in a different
capacity for the government. But the reality is his language
is different, his perspective is different. So therefore it shifts
the environment that he's working with and living through differently.
(42:02):
And that's the goal. Going back to the first question
of how do you know when you should be doing
readings for other people or how do you know like
you are just developing your intuition for yourself. He's another
great example.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
What is there a difference for you when you're doing
a reading with Joe Shmoe on the street versus when
you were working with him on these cases? Like were
you getting information in different ways it feel different to
you or was it all the same? And you, I mean,
there were so many times in the book you would
call him with such an urgency. How did that look?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
So there are a few people in my world, you know,
a couple of celebrities Bob family, that give me open
permission that if I ever get something about them that
I that I have their consent, that I can actually
you know, call them and say, hey, I'm feeling this
like you good, like everything okay? Otherwise I just don't
(42:57):
do that, and with him we kind of developed this banter,
you know, this kind of rapport where he gave me
permission and like, if you get anything else on this,
let me know. A lot of times they didn't, and
then a few times I did, you know, unexpectedly. You know,
there would be these moments where I would have this
(43:19):
sense of urgency to call him. You know, one case,
I was in Ireland getting ready to do I'm six
hours ahead of him, and I'm you know, getting ready
to go on stage and do an event and I'm
getting information on a case that was taking place at
Yale University. Another time, I just landed it close to
midnight in LaGuardia Airport in New York City after I
was on tour and got information and I was like, dude,
(43:42):
this has to happen now, Like you need to go
do this now. So we've had those moments and then
we have the equal and opposite moment where he's like,
you know this is really important, like you know, what
do you get And I'm like I'm not getting I'm
not getting anything. I'm so sorry, and he'd be like
why not. I'm like, I don't know, I'm late. If
I could answer that, I would tell you, I'd like,
(44:03):
I don't know. So if I had this, you know,
summarize why, I would say, it's probably because there's some
type of lesson, right, you know, And the book ends
on a on a very big lesson of his transformation.
And I remember, you know, when we were writing the book,
trying to figure out how we were gonna end it, like,
you know, how do we how do we end this
(44:25):
twenty five year you know, part one of our working relationship. Well,
the universe answered that question for us. And I don't
want to give anything away because I thought you're chasing
evil because the case that it begins with my journey
with him, not the book, but my journey with him
that that actually missing woman woman, it ends with a
(44:48):
pretty big I'm going to say, blow to his and
to the case legally, and that in that moment, when
that conversation he and I had, I very clearly saw
the ending of the book not from a criminal standpoint,
but from an energetic standpoint. And I think that journey
(45:11):
is the one that's probably the most profound, is that
oop journey going through this, And that's why I want
people to take away from this people like you know,
I was very open and very anxious about this book
coming out because I had agreed to help him. And
I said, listen, as long as my name's not used,
keep my name out of everything. And he was like,
no problem, I want to keep my job. So like
we had a great working relation. But when this book
(45:36):
was coming out, now the anxiety of all those years
of me being involved with this stuff and not talking
about it, you know, having a producer from crossing Over
calling me up and being like, oh my god, this
was going on while you were doing the show.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
I'm like, yep, it was going on while we're doing
the show. And she said to me, she was all
the attacks that you took back. Then she goes and
you could have just like whip this little factoid out
and been like, oh, yeah, well, by the way, here's this,
and he said, no. We both had a mutual agreement
that we were going to keep that under outs and
(46:15):
we did.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
And the book does end up kind of being a
spiritual book after all of the conversation of the crimes
and the investigations you guys were doing, but it becomes
about the lessons that you learned. One of the things
you said at the very end really hit me though.
It was something about the universe's justice system being so
(46:39):
much more profound and great than the one down here.
And sometimes, you know, I think I know me as
a person. If you know anything about astrology. I have
so much libra in my charts. I am big on justice,
like the balance, you know, and I'm just you do too, Okay.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
The libra I have, like I have a stellium and
libra me too.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
So that's the huge part of what matters to me.
And there's so many times in this lifetime where I
feel like, how is this not working out in the
way that I see would be justice? You know? Can
you talk a little bit about that and why you
think the universe has a better justice system than we
may ever know.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
So my guys gave me that says the analogy. Okay,
but you got to come to eighth grade science with me,
chemistry with miss Sullivan, and that was every chemical equation
gets balanced in the universe, right, Chemistry, it's all about
balancing the equation. So we are all chemistry. We are
all energy, so we are all equations, and all equations
(47:42):
in the universe get balanced, and we may not watch
that balance happen, but it's happening all around us as
we speak. So when you apply that to karma or justice,
we may feel in our human ego that earthly justice
(48:02):
has not been served. Kelly, I got a list. I
got a list that you and I could probably share
and cross cross reference and be like you got this one, yeah, yeah,
I got to I got this one in bold, And
then I just sit back and recognize that we can
only be responsible for driving our cars. I can't drive
the other people's cars. So as we drive, drive, drive,
(48:27):
we have to break, break, break before we crash into
something that's going to be damaging for us. And I
think when we get all too consumed by what we
perceive as justice must be served, then we actually become
myopic in our ability to operate within the confines of
(48:47):
the universe we're living in. So my God just told me.
They just said that the justice system to the universe,
you know, pales and compare the justice systems of Earth
pales in comparison to the justice system of the universe.
So we may not we see people get what we
think is their due, but rest assured that they do.
That is the professional side of me answering. The personal
(49:09):
side has a list. I'm like Aria Stark Game of Thrones,
like I haven't not I could separate the personal side
and the professional side, and the personal start well by
the way, I have a scorpio rising if that helps.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Oh yeah, that for sure, fellow us. You really like
revenge and things like that.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
A sun, libra, scorpio rising moon and aquarius so not
only wow, I can detach my emotions from from all
of that, which gives me the ability to do what
I do as well.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
I could be surgical about my readings.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Yeah, because that was so much in the book. You
would not attach emotionally. I would be sobbing with the
stuff you were saying, Like it was I'm a Piscy's
moon if that says anything for you, But like it's
it felt so big and heavy, and these conversations are hard, right,
and you would be able to deliver the information that
he needed without any sort of a emotional tie to it,
so then he could go do his job.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
The only time I had a hard time was with
the little boy Noah. Yeah, that was a tough one
because the daddy and me kicked in.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, but it's so to your point about the justice.
If you guys had focused on what you thought justice
needed to be with the cases in the book, you
would have missed the lessons that were being presented to
you on your own journey, both of you. It seems
like from all of the experiences you had together.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
Yes, yeah, I think it's all about the lesson. Yeah,
everything's about the lesson. And I literally, I mean I
can go in any area of my life, in any
year of my life, I could legitimately tell you that
my probably biggest question always is what am I supposed
(50:49):
to learn from this? So I don't got to do
this anymore. I got to learn from this. To the stops,
I got to learn this. I got to repeat, like,
what have I got to learn from this? Is a
really big question that people should really should should ask them.
Oh and by the way, guess what, news flash, just
because you asked a question, and just because you recognize
what the lesson is, the universe is really good at
(51:11):
giving pop quizzes, really really really good. So for anybody
that's listening who's done the work, and I mean legitimately
you've done your work, you've done your charts, you may
have done therapy, you've done your human design, you've feng shwayed,
you've reiki, you've done all the things right, and you're
now moving on to the next level. And you're ready
(51:33):
for what the next level is. But let's say that
your past pattern was getting involved with somebody who had
addiction issues. Right, the universe sends this amazing person into
your life, and you're the happiest you've ever been. Person
doesn't drink, person's never done recreational drugs. You're like win
or Winner. This is amazing. Two years into the relationship,
(51:55):
you wind up finding they have a gambling problem. So
the addiction issue came out some The universe gives you
a pop quiz and they say, hey, yeah, did you
learn your lesson? Oh no, you didn't learn your lesson. Okay,
So now you're back in school with this person. We'll
check them, see how you know remedial addiction. Human ego
one oh one's going for you, and hopefully you'll be
(52:18):
able to remember all the things that you went through,
and hopefully you'll be able to evolve through this moment
and get back to the empowered version of the life.
You were living.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yeah, I always say on this podcast with the listeners,
what is it here to teach me? That's what we
talk about all the time, and it's the same thing.
So if you could leave people maybe with one message
just of navigating kind of the light and the dark
sides of life, because we're all going to you know,
I always say life is like a quarkscrew, like we're
always going to be going up and down.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
What would that be?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
I always want people to at their core communicate with
the people that are in their lives right now, openly
and honestly about how they feel because sometimes you know,
I promise tomorrow, and so many people that sit in
front of me just want to know that their loved
ones and friends know that they love them, know that
they appreciated them. So I think that's a really really
(53:11):
big one. I mean, we can talk about positive and
negative and lessons and all that kind of stuff, but
at the most boiled down, if it's one thing, it's
let people in your life know that you love them,
that you appreciate them. I think that's really important because
so many people don't get that opportunity, or they just
were living their lives and they missed that opportunity, always
thinking like oh, I've got you know tomorrow, or they
(53:33):
know this until they're not here, and then you wonder,
I'm my god, did they know this? I never said this,
and say the things, and by the way, I mean
say all the things like if somebody's pissing you off,
tell them, tell them and tell them why have the
conversation about it, you know, And if you're dealing with kids,
do it with kids as well. You know. I started
with my kids very very young, where I would say, hey,
(53:54):
in case I get abducted by aliens, I want you
to know this, and they would giggle about the alien's part.
But then the conversation that took place after that was
always something profound. So I think, don't waste time because
so you can't get back when spent, and that's time
and money. And don't waste other people's time and money
because two things you can't get back are are time
(54:16):
and money. So I think communicate, appreciate, and validate the
people in your lives today. So that, as I always
said on crossing over a meeting, like myself isn't who
you're sitting in front of hoping to hear it hoping.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, John Edward, thank you so much for being here.
The book is called Chasing Evil. I will put all
of the links to all of John's books and Evolve
Plus I just joined. I'm so excited, so I'll put
all of that in the description of this podcast. For
you guys, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
This was an amazing experience for me, so thank you
for having me. If anybody wants to join Evolve Plus
Yeah on TV, go to the web version and cookie
two zero two five, cookie to zero two and that'll
deep discount if your listeners.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Oh amazing. Okay, I will put that in the description
as well. For you guys, thank you so much again,
it was so lovely meeting you.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Appreciate it. Good luck out there.
Host
Kelly Henderson
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.