October 22, 2025 • 30 mins
Kelly speaks with Jon Slavet, Founder of Halftime with Jon (HTJ), the network for men at midlife. As an executive and entrepreneur in tech, Jon has led multiple consumer companies from start-up to scaled-up. Earlier in his career he worked at NPR, E!, and Wired. After his personal experience with Divorce at midlife, he was motivated to launch HTJ to support and inspire men going through life-changing experiences. He is happily remarried, and the proud dad of four kids. More about the podcast: With many men experiencing loneliness and disconnection, the need for positive advice and inspiration has never been greater. Halftime with Jon aims to bring expert perspective and insight to help men reconnect to themselves, and what matters most. Season One goes deep into the challenge of Separation and Divorce. With a combination of expert commentary and moments of levity, the podcast delivers the practical tools and emotional strength men need to successfully navigate one of the toughest experiences of their lives.
Kelly and Jon talk about what a "successful" divorce actually looks like, how and when to start dating and having sexual relationships after divorce, why divorce/separation can be more isolating for men and why a relationship isn't a failure just because it ended.
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Socials: @halftimewithjon
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
John Slavitt is the founder of Halftime with John, the
network for men at midlife.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hi, John Kelly, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So, as an executive and entrepreneur in tech, you have
led multiple consumer companies from startup to scaled up, is
what I read in your bio. But it was after
your personal experience with divorce that you wanted to start
this platform for men with Halftime with John. So can
you talk us through what you uncovered during your midlife
divorce experience that made you want to start this platform.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
You're not wasting any time.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm getting right to it, right down to the.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Heart of it. Well, you know, I think we actually
had a similar year in twenty twenty three. I was
looking at your Insta and looking at some of the
stuff that you reposted about all the change, called it
the KRK, screw up, be Up and the down, and
I had a sim experience. I went through this kind
of perfect storm of stuff. In twenty twenty three, my
(01:06):
father passed away after a long illness. The company of
which I was founding CEO, my board decided they want
a different CEO. We had a parting of ways. I
finalized my financial settlement with my ex after so many
years in the beginning of twenty twenty three. We'd been
divorced for a while, but the financial settlement, you know,
I got remarried. I put all of my stuff in
(01:27):
a couple devil bags and moved in with my wife,
who was a much better sense of style than I do.
She refused to allow any of the furniture from my
bachelor apartment to come to the place we live in.
But bottom line is, I had this perfect storm of
all of these things in life, any of which would
be a crisis and an opportunity. And I think that
caused me, you know, in my fifties to step back
(01:49):
and say okay, and my waking up every morning passionate
and aligned in what I'm doing and what I'm bringing
in the world. And the answer was no, And I
turned to my wife and I said, I'm going to
something different. And that's what gave rise to halftime with John,
That's what gave rise to what I'm doing now. And
you know, crisis in life, which often happens at midlife,
(02:11):
which is this cauldron right for growth, causes change and
I'm still in the middle of it.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I always say we wouldn't change without pain, though, So
I do love the idea that crisis kind of causes it,
but what can you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Do with it after? So is there a way to
have a successful divorce?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, you know, it's funny you mentioned this because we
just pushed our latest episode of Halftime with John today,
So wherever you get the podcast or YouTube, my interviewee
is an amazing guy named Tom Sturgis. He's actually kind
of a legend of the music business, the world that
you're part of. He was the head of talent at
you Personal Music for many years. He worked with everyone
from Aretha to fifty cent and he wrote a book
(02:56):
called A Good Divorce and he has lived that And
when I interviewed him what he said when I asked
him the question what does it mean to have a
good divorce? He said, John, it's respect, generosity and kindness.
It's respect, generosity, and kindness. And he repeated that throughout
our time together. And essentially, to kind of paraphrase what
(03:20):
Tom taught me, we have to view the process with
our soon to be X as something that's hopefully leading
to a lifelong relationship that is positive, especially when there
are these precious children in the middle. Now I have
three kids and a step soon. So I have three
kids with my ex, ranging from ahe tent to nineteen.
(03:41):
Tom has three boys, respect, generosity, and kindness. If we
can get over the emotional reactivity that happens in a divorce,
we get over the anger, we get overcoming from the pain,
and have a bit of a vision for life after.
I think a good divorce is possible. That doesn't mean
it's not painful, and it doesn't mean the financial settlement
(04:05):
is not painful.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So it's not without pain that makes it a successful divorce,
which I think is so so such a good point
to make because we as humans instinctively just try to
avoid pain right when we're going through something hard. I
think the things that we deem good or bad are
is it painful or is it not? And I love
(04:29):
that explanation because that's like adulting and one that's like
one statement that sums up adulting to me, because adulting
is not easy, nor is it there's no lack of pain,
but it's how we step into it and how we
handle ourselves through the process.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
I think you're right. And there's famous JFK quote and
I think he had this on his desk in the
Oval office. Lord by ocean is so vast and my
boat is so small at a certain point in life,
and of course, if you go through a separation divorce,
you have to point your little boat into the storm
(05:06):
and understand the only way to get through it is
to go through this storm. That draws on faith, It
draws on personal belief and the idea that you're going
to be okay. And I think until you actually point
your little boat the bow of it into that storm
and go through it emotionally, spiritually, financially, you don't get
(05:31):
to the other side.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Well, your platform is geared towards men specifically. I mean,
obviously you're a man, so I'm assuming that had a
big part in why you wanted to do that. But
is there something that you recognize in men going through
this process that's different from women.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
That's a great question. One thing I would point out
we're building a network for people at Midlife. Our first
show is from Men at Midlife because that was my experience,
but we'll have many hosts and many shows that will
launch over the next couple of years. At halftime with John,
I started with men because it is my personal experience.
(06:10):
One of our upcoming guests Lilah Aitken, who's the founder
of a company called split Fyi. It's a website to
help people go through divorce. She said it very well.
She said, what typically happens with men and women, and
I'm being stereotypical, is if the analogy during the conflict
of divorces like a boxing match, when men and women
go to their corners, they often leverage the thing that
(06:33):
they're most comfortable with. Men sometimes leverage money and women
leverage the kids. Now, this is not every time, but
this is not a typical and that can be a difference.
The other thing that Lilah points out, and she went
through a terrible divorce. Her husband left her when she
was six months pregnant. She said that it's typical for
(06:55):
women on an emotional level to want to maintain emotional
connection with their ex while they're going through the divorce,
whereas men tend to emotionally compartmentalize and not want or
know how to do that. Now, I would argue that
if you're going through the trauma of separation divorce, you
really do need to take a pause on the emotional
(07:17):
connection with your ex. It doesn't mean you can't be kind,
but the expectations of the marriage do not carry through
emotionally to the process of divorce. So I think those
are a couple of the differences. Otherwise, Kelly, it's all
the same. I think that when people are at their worst,
coming from reactivity and acting out of pain and fear,
(07:37):
their behavior is negative. And what I've learned counseling so
many men is that fifty one percent of the battle
is emotional and mental sustainability and forty nine percent is
the tactical and practical process of getting through the divorce.
And this is the same for men and women. If
(07:59):
you can't find practices and support it, or a therapist
or an advocate to support you, the financial aspect of
the negotiations will be that much tougher.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I have a couple more questions I want to get
to you in a minute about that, just as far
as the moving on process goes, because that's something I've
noticed is different between men and women. But first I
want to ask you. You know, millions of people get
divorced every year, and I was reading in your bio too.
You talk a lot about how it's so super isolating
for men specifically, Why is that that time? Why is
(08:33):
that so isolating for a man.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I'm glad you brought this up. Multiple of the experts
that I'm talking to in the season have quoted the
boys don't cry stereotype. It's still alive, and I think
that men come out of childhood losing the vulnerability and
the connectivity that vulnerability provides us with other humans. Owen Marcus,
(08:57):
who's an expert in men's mental emotional health one of
my early gifts, said amazingly that studies show that little
boys and girls at age two, the boys are more
sensitive really once, yes, but once they get a little
bit older, the boys lose that and the girls maintain it.
And what the girls maintain is the emotional connectivity to
(09:18):
other people, particularly the women and their circles of support.
And little boys that grow to be men do not
have the same emotional vulnerability and connectivity and don't have
the same support system naturally when they get to crises
in their lives. You know, it's one thing to have
lots of friends, but it's very different to have men
(09:42):
where you feel you can be yourself, you can share
your weaknesses. You can be vulnerable, you can be emotional.
Many men don't have that, but it turns out that
most women do have it. So all of a sudden,
these boys that became men get into the cauldron of midlife,
the relationship isn't working and to kind of go to
their own corner alone to start, and they don't understand
(10:05):
how to be connected. And that's a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So it's mostly a programming thing.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Then. That's so interesting to me that men are when
they're younger, more sensitive. I mean, it kind of makes
sense to me with some of some other theories that
I'm working through, but I can't Yeah, I can't wrap
my mind around what exactly happens to a man during
the process. Because as a woman, we're so encouraged for community.
So how could a man in this situation in his midlife,
(10:33):
not having that experience throughout his life change that, Like,
how can a man reach out for community during a
hard time like this.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I'm so glad you led me to this question. You
got to take a risk. Start with one person now
that could be a therapist. I think the great thing
is with better help and modern mental health. I think
mental health is being destigmatized. God blessed, and I think
that men should understand that there is no shame in
(11:03):
seeking help. So you can get help from multiple places.
I think that you can get help from a therapist's
you know, I've mentioned you can get help from a friend.
Maybe it's a male friend that your instinct tells you
you could be vulnerable with, and you could say, hey,
I need help and I need your help and take
a chance. Trust your instincts and take a chance. I
(11:25):
think the other piece of it is developing practices that
support our own internal emotional and mental health. Whether it's meditation.
I meditate regularly, whether it's a practice that takes you
out of the dark and into the light. Heck, Tom
stur just talks about how his divorce he found Instagram,
(11:46):
reels and TikTok and he just laughed ten minutes a
day at the absurdity of what's on these platforms. But
I think back to your question, Men need to trust
their instincts and take a risk to connect with other people.
Or it could be a woman in your life. Is
there a woman in your life whom you trust and
you could be vulnerable with.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Okay, Well, that leads me to the next piece that
I want to discuss something that I've noticed between friends
of mine. I mean, I'm midlife, I'm forty two. So
friends of mine going through the process of divorce, whether
it's a man or a woman, there is one significant
difference in every single situation. And the women that I
see going through the divorce take a break. They like
(12:30):
take a pause. They're focused on either whether they have kids,
or the process of the divorce, or healing themselves, like
going through the grief process of the relationship, kind of
finding themselves again. And all of the men immediately start dating.
So is part of that, in your opinion based on
(12:52):
this searching for connection? Maybe maybe that's not been safe
for me, like my men friends to go to other men.
Maybe they don't have those communities or why is that happening?
What is behind this?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
That's interesting? Well, by the way I saw you had
an astrology expert. My wife is a huge lay astrology
expert herself, and I think my wife would say channeling
her is I bet the Capricorn moon women start dating
right away. I'm a Capricorn. Probably Harry achievement oriented, got
my to do list. Your question about the differences between
(13:23):
men and women rebounding and dating right away, You're probably right.
I think any man or woman who is self aware
needs to take a pause and not seek another relationship.
When you're going through your divorce, you're not in a place,
you don't know what you want. You're probably reactive and
(13:46):
you're going to hurt someone else. The truth is, you're
gonna take your hurt and you're going to hurt someone else.
My first guest of my First Seasons an amazing relationship
expert named Kama Bojuani. You can see her on NBC
and she's at commonolive dot com and she talks about
her own experience of separation divorce, which she's going through
(14:08):
right now. She talks about it openly, and she talks
about how if you go out to the dating apps,
you can find anything you want. As we all know,
you can find any mode and anything you want, and
that will not lead you down a good path if
you're in the middle of your separation divorce. Now, men,
(14:29):
I think who are in that pain. I think it
is very natural to want to find a distraction, whether
it's sex or companionship or whatever you want to find.
And for guys who live from here and want to
pointing to my head, which is most people. I think
(14:52):
that rebounding is a natural instinct. I just say, don't
do it.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Don't do it.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
No, but you said you are remarried, correct, So what
would your suggestions be? So wait until you're officially divorced
possibly or what are the parameters?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Give me some tips here?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, well I got separated seven years ago June, okay,
and divorced, you know, a good while ago. My financial
settlement was separated from my legal divorce, So okay, that's
an important distinction. But what I would say is you've
got to trust yourself and how you are mentally and emotionally, spiritually,
(15:40):
and really check in with that before you actually get
out there and start dating you and want to have
a relationship. Now, what are the other pieces? Are you
emotionally available? What do you have to give to someone else?
Are you just trying to get? And I think the
other piece, yes, is the legal divorce. I think that
most women who have a lot going for them want
(16:03):
to see a guy who is legally divorced where the
county and a judge has stamped that legal divorce. I
remember when I was going through my separation. I think
I probably waited nine to twelve months after I was
separated before dating. Okay, I was on the ASPS. I
think a couple women early on called me out and said, hey,
(16:27):
are you are you legally divorced? Are you know? What
are you going for? I wasn't legally divorced yet, and
I think the truth is I probably wasn't ready, and
it was some time after that. Actually, in the spring
of twenty twenty, I connected with my now wife, and
you met the woman that I was meant to be
(16:48):
with for the rest of my life. I'm very happy
to say so. I would say that you've got to know,
you've got to be available, and I think being legally
divorced is a good idea.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Some form of unavailability if you're still married technically?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's all I've always viewed it.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I think it is, and I think there's a legal
piece to it, there's an emotional piece to it, and
ever lasted aside for him or herself. I think it
is possible if you've been separated for a while and
your legal divorce is in your sites, and you have
not been physical or emotionally connected to your ex for
(17:27):
a good while. I think there are people who were
ready and available. I think it's also valid for a
new potential partner to say, Hey, I'd like to see
you be legally divorced.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, but it depends.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I don't think every case is black and white.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Well. I like that you mentioned the pause though, because
I would imagine if you're coming out of a divorce
and let's say you've been married quite some time, you
might not know even what you want, which I would
imagine walking into dating could be kind of intimidating. Because
you've been in this relationship for a super long time.
You kind of have to get to know yourself again.
(18:03):
So can you talk through a little bit about that, Like,
what are some ways you mentioned meditation? But what are
some ways listeners may take the pause and really lean
into getting to know this new version of themselves.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's a great question, listen, I think speaking some personal experience.
So I'm a Libra and a double Libra. What does
that mean?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I love all this astrology talking about idea.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
By the way, I knew nothing about this and it
was a deep skeptic before I met my wife. Yes,
my wife is a star commercial attorney at a big
tech company, but she happens to be a lay expert
in astrology, and she started feeding me stuff when we
got together, and I thought, how do you know me
better than anyone has ever known me? Just from knowing
(18:49):
my time of day, day place, whatever, year of birth.
So it's legit. I mean, really it is legit, you know. Listen.
I think my first respects Kelly to the question how
do we start to know ourselves again? Is to look
inward and to understand ourselves internally. Try to understand our
(19:11):
own emotions, our own emotional patterns, and our own instincts.
And so I think for most men who come out
of child to disconnect it emotionally, because that's the way
boys are bred, right, I mean boys in this country,
unless you're part of a different, exceptional family or maybe
an exceptional different set of parents. We learn to suck
(19:33):
it up. We learned to achieve, we learned to somewhat
go to loan. As we've discussed. So I think the
first thing is is to figure out ways to understand
our own emotional map. How do we do it? Learning
to meditate and take some space internally allows the instincts
to come up and the self awareness to come up,
and those epiphanies to come up that we never knew
(19:55):
and never thought about. The whole roadmap is truly inside.
I mean God did make each of us with the
whole universe inside of us and all of the answers.
But we spend most of our time and I'm pointing
to my head again for those listening in our minds
and in our to do lists and in what society
(20:15):
or our parents, or our spouse or our friends think
we should be. So I'd say, first look inside and
find those practices. Meditation is a great is a great process.
The other thing is, I'm a big fan of therapy
and I'm actually working with a new therapist looking at
anger and looking at what part anger has played in
(20:35):
my life and my own different emotional parts. There's a
system called internal family systems that my late father in
law worked with called parts work. He passed away. He
was an amazing counselor to so many people, and I'm
working with someone who does that same work. Understand your
own emotional internal map. What isn't driving you to do?
The last thing I tell you and my last episode
(20:58):
guest Derek Haswell, who's the founder of ten Percent Happier,
great company that provides meditation and mindfulness coaching and apps,
and also the Dan Harris the ten percent Happier app.
You know Derek, who's an amazing guy, talks about how
we need to learn to respond not react, and when
(21:22):
we're run by old emotional patterns that are unexamined, we
live our life reacting not responding, So find ways to
slow down and look internally. All the answers are there.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I love all of everything you just said, and I
completely agree. And until you slow down, I find it
difficult as a human to hear anything, to get any
information coming from my insides or my internal map, as
you've talked about. So some in our culture seems so
driven by go go, go go, or compartmentalize like you
(21:54):
mentioned earlier. So sometimes it does take the slowing down
as hard as it can be to get the map,
to get the guidance. But it's not a bad thing.
I love that the way you just framed all of that.
I was just thinking through hearing about your experience and
(22:16):
you mentioned being on the dating app after your divorce.
How different was dating after being married a significant amount
of time from before you got married to then after
and like, how did you adjust? If people are listening,
maybe going through this process now, it could be kind
of intimidating, I would imagine, because the dating world has
changed quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
That's a true statement, Kelly. So I was with my
ex for let's see, a total of seventeen years feteen
years married and three years together before we got married.
So yeah, you know, ironically, when I was a young
guy just moved to the Bay Area, San Francisco, Bay
Area in the late nineties to pursue a career in tech,
(22:58):
Match dot com had launched a couple years before, and
I knew the founders. And by the way, when match
dot com launched, it was in a basement on Brian
Street in San Francisco. It was like thirty engineers and
they couldn't get real women to sign up for the service.
So they created female profiles and impersonated women. That's how
(23:19):
match dot com started. Now it's of course, it's a
part of IAC and it's a huge business. Legitimate men
and women on all of these apps. You know. I
think what you learn is be super overt about who
you are, real, what you want for real and put
that out right on your profile. And I think for
(23:43):
men who are very visual, men tend to go for
look and the looks, and we'll make compromises on other
things for looks. Okay, I'm being stereotypical, bad idea, Okay, Right,
So I think looks are important. Physical chemistry is super
important on that, right, it's not. But be clear about
(24:05):
what you want and interests and background and personality and intelligence, right,
all the things that it turns out like really matter,
and don't compromise those things in service of just hooking
up or a volume of dates, particularly when you're lonely
(24:27):
and if you're rebounding out, like we talked about earlier,
just looking to fill your dance card because your kids
are spending more time with your soon to be x
than with you, and that's created a huge hole. Maybe
your friends have receded from you because they're siding with
your soon to be X. Maybe you just feel lonely,
but I'd say fight those areges and instincts, know what
(24:48):
you want, you know the kind of person you want,
and be patient.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Okay, So there's that much interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I actually listen to your podcast with Tom Sturgis earlier
and and I loved this statement that he said, and
when we kind of mentioned having a successful divorce, but
he said to really try to switch your perspective to
it's not a failure just because it ended, which is
such a big portion of how I'm moving in relationships
(25:16):
in this point in my life as well. And it's
kind of become funny to me to even hear someone
say like, oh, well, that's the one, or you're looking
for the one, because I think relationships can serve us
so much in such a bigger capacity than just that
just the one that you're gonna be with forever. You know,
every relationship in my life has served a deep purpose,
(25:37):
and when I look at it in that way, they
all feel like successes. So how can we, as humans
who have been programmed to kind of, you know, since
day one, it's kind of like you got to find
the one partner, how can we look at the relationships
that have ended as successes.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
You just gave me chills, so good, Anya, as Ausors
would say. And I think our partners, wives, husbands are
not there to make us happy. Our partners are not
there to make us happy. It doesn't mean we shouldn't
be happy with the people in our lives. It doesn't
(26:14):
mean we shouldn't be loving and connected, but at the
end of the day, it's, you know, to be trite.
It's an inside job. And speaking for myself, I came
out of childhood like most high achievers any gram three
by the way, I know, you know the performer, Yeah,
the achiever. I came out with an internal deficit that
(26:39):
Derek has well. My last guest before Tom would call
them not enough. I would say many driven, high achieving
men and women have that deficit. It is a double
led sword. It's a double led sword that causes us
to seek things externally to get praise to fill the
deficit inside. Those things are achievement, they are jobs, they
(27:02):
are titles. Sometimes they're children. It is money, it is
the right in quotes, I did air quotes, the right
spouse or partner, and then we put all of this
pressure on the relationship to make us happy and fulfill us.
So you're right. I love what Tom said, which is
his first marriage was not a failure, it was a success.
(27:24):
He had two beautiful sons from that relationship. I have
three beautiful kids with my ex. I thank God for
my ex. She is a great woman. She is a
strong person. We're trying to figure out how to best
co of parents that we can. It's an ongoing process.
It's never perfect. And I thank god that I met
her and had three beautiful children. I have with her
(27:46):
number one thing in my life, along with my wife
and my step son. So reset and recast the idea
of your first marriage. If you're going through separation and divorce,
what did you learn from it? What did you gain
from it? Also, remember this, at any given point in
our lives, where everything that's led up to that point
(28:08):
creates our mindset and our field of vision, we make
the choices we make based on who we are at
that moment. And if you look back on yourself five
or ten or fifteen years ago or longer, when you
got married, that's the choice you were meant to make
at that time in your life for reasons that sometimes
(28:29):
you can't see. There was no other choice. That person,
that person who became your relationship and the person may
now be your ex. There was a reason, there was
a plan behind it. And so here we are now
with new awareness and new experience to make different choices.
But it's all good.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, it's all good.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I so resonate with the high achieving piece of what
you said. And I think because of that, so many
of us do feel like relationship and ships that end
are embarrassing or it was you know, it's just like
unsuccessful or I've carried a lot of shame in my
life just based on things failing. But exactly like you said,
when I look back now, each relationship that ended was
(29:14):
such a big part of my own evolution, which is
why we're all here anyway, right, just the journey of
our own growth. So if it got you there, it
was worth something. It was a success, even if it
was crazy looking in the moment when you're in it
and it needed to end, or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
That's right, Kelly, And I just say one other thing.
You know how when you look back on your life,
those moments of pain, those moments of change that felt
terrible in the moment, you can't see what's around the
next corner and the next corner in those moments. And
it's only through those moments of change and pain that
(29:53):
give rise to the opportunity for the great things that
are around the next corners. There's a cause and effect.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yes, yes, well it is. The podcast is called Halftime
with John. It's a whole platform. I'm so excited to
see what you do when you open it up to
even more than just the men talk, because I've loved
the men talk from a women's perspective even it's been
great for me. Where else can people find you if
they want to keep up with what you're doing and
(30:20):
just with the company.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Thank you, Kelly. So you can find us at Halftime
dot network. Okay, it's the site for the podcast. You
can find us on YouTube if you starts Halftime with John.
John is Jon. By the way, there's no age. You
can find us. Also wherever that you would listen to
your podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I will put all of that in the description of
the podcast for you guys. As always, John, thank you
so much for being here. I really enjoyed this conversation
me too, Kelly.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Thank you.
John Slavitt is the founder of Halftime with John, the
network for men at midlife.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hi, John Kelly, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So, as an executive and entrepreneur in tech, you have
led multiple consumer companies from startup to scaled up, is
what I read in your bio. But it was after
your personal experience with divorce that you wanted to start
this platform for men with Halftime with John. So can
you talk us through what you uncovered during your midlife
divorce experience that made you want to start this platform.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
You're not wasting any time.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm getting right to it, right down to the.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Heart of it. Well, you know, I think we actually
had a similar year in twenty twenty three. I was
looking at your Insta and looking at some of the
stuff that you reposted about all the change, called it
the KRK, screw up, be Up and the down, and
I had a sim experience. I went through this kind
of perfect storm of stuff. In twenty twenty three, my
(01:06):
father passed away after a long illness. The company of
which I was founding CEO, my board decided they want
a different CEO. We had a parting of ways. I
finalized my financial settlement with my ex after so many
years in the beginning of twenty twenty three. We'd been
divorced for a while, but the financial settlement, you know,
I got remarried. I put all of my stuff in
(01:27):
a couple devil bags and moved in with my wife,
who was a much better sense of style than I do.
She refused to allow any of the furniture from my
bachelor apartment to come to the place we live in.
But bottom line is, I had this perfect storm of
all of these things in life, any of which would
be a crisis and an opportunity. And I think that
caused me, you know, in my fifties to step back
(01:49):
and say okay, and my waking up every morning passionate
and aligned in what I'm doing and what I'm bringing
in the world. And the answer was no, And I
turned to my wife and I said, I'm going to
something different. And that's what gave rise to halftime with John,
That's what gave rise to what I'm doing now. And
you know, crisis in life, which often happens at midlife,
(02:11):
which is this cauldron right for growth, causes change and
I'm still in the middle of it.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I always say we wouldn't change without pain, though, So
I do love the idea that crisis kind of causes it,
but what can you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Do with it after? So is there a way to
have a successful divorce?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, you know, it's funny you mentioned this because we
just pushed our latest episode of Halftime with John today,
So wherever you get the podcast or YouTube, my interviewee
is an amazing guy named Tom Sturgis. He's actually kind
of a legend of the music business, the world that
you're part of. He was the head of talent at
you Personal Music for many years. He worked with everyone
from Aretha to fifty cent and he wrote a book
(02:56):
called A Good Divorce and he has lived that And
when I interviewed him what he said when I asked
him the question what does it mean to have a
good divorce? He said, John, it's respect, generosity and kindness.
It's respect, generosity, and kindness. And he repeated that throughout
our time together. And essentially, to kind of paraphrase what
(03:20):
Tom taught me, we have to view the process with
our soon to be X as something that's hopefully leading
to a lifelong relationship that is positive, especially when there
are these precious children in the middle. Now I have
three kids and a step soon. So I have three
kids with my ex, ranging from ahe tent to nineteen.
(03:41):
Tom has three boys, respect, generosity, and kindness. If we
can get over the emotional reactivity that happens in a divorce,
we get over the anger, we get overcoming from the pain,
and have a bit of a vision for life after.
I think a good divorce is possible. That doesn't mean
it's not painful, and it doesn't mean the financial settlement
(04:05):
is not painful.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So it's not without pain that makes it a successful divorce,
which I think is so so such a good point
to make because we as humans instinctively just try to
avoid pain right when we're going through something hard. I
think the things that we deem good or bad are
is it painful or is it not? And I love
(04:29):
that explanation because that's like adulting and one that's like
one statement that sums up adulting to me, because adulting
is not easy, nor is it there's no lack of pain,
but it's how we step into it and how we
handle ourselves through the process.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
I think you're right. And there's famous JFK quote and
I think he had this on his desk in the
Oval office. Lord by ocean is so vast and my
boat is so small at a certain point in life,
and of course, if you go through a separation divorce,
you have to point your little boat into the storm
(05:06):
and understand the only way to get through it is
to go through this storm. That draws on faith, It
draws on personal belief and the idea that you're going
to be okay. And I think until you actually point
your little boat the bow of it into that storm
and go through it emotionally, spiritually, financially, you don't get
(05:31):
to the other side.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Well, your platform is geared towards men specifically. I mean,
obviously you're a man, so I'm assuming that had a
big part in why you wanted to do that. But
is there something that you recognize in men going through
this process that's different from women.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
That's a great question. One thing I would point out
we're building a network for people at Midlife. Our first
show is from Men at Midlife because that was my experience,
but we'll have many hosts and many shows that will
launch over the next couple of years. At halftime with John,
I started with men because it is my personal experience.
(06:10):
One of our upcoming guests Lilah Aitken, who's the founder
of a company called split Fyi. It's a website to
help people go through divorce. She said it very well.
She said, what typically happens with men and women, and
I'm being stereotypical, is if the analogy during the conflict
of divorces like a boxing match, when men and women
go to their corners, they often leverage the thing that
(06:33):
they're most comfortable with. Men sometimes leverage money and women
leverage the kids. Now, this is not every time, but
this is not a typical and that can be a difference.
The other thing that Lilah points out, and she went
through a terrible divorce. Her husband left her when she
was six months pregnant. She said that it's typical for
(06:55):
women on an emotional level to want to maintain emotional
connection with their ex while they're going through the divorce,
whereas men tend to emotionally compartmentalize and not want or
know how to do that. Now, I would argue that
if you're going through the trauma of separation divorce, you
really do need to take a pause on the emotional
(07:17):
connection with your ex. It doesn't mean you can't be kind,
but the expectations of the marriage do not carry through
emotionally to the process of divorce. So I think those
are a couple of the differences. Otherwise, Kelly, it's all
the same. I think that when people are at their worst,
coming from reactivity and acting out of pain and fear,
(07:37):
their behavior is negative. And what I've learned counseling so
many men is that fifty one percent of the battle
is emotional and mental sustainability and forty nine percent is
the tactical and practical process of getting through the divorce.
And this is the same for men and women. If
(07:59):
you can't find practices and support it, or a therapist
or an advocate to support you, the financial aspect of
the negotiations will be that much tougher.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I have a couple more questions I want to get
to you in a minute about that, just as far
as the moving on process goes, because that's something I've
noticed is different between men and women. But first I
want to ask you. You know, millions of people get
divorced every year, and I was reading in your bio too.
You talk a lot about how it's so super isolating
for men specifically, Why is that that time? Why is
(08:33):
that so isolating for a man.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I'm glad you brought this up. Multiple of the experts
that I'm talking to in the season have quoted the
boys don't cry stereotype. It's still alive, and I think
that men come out of childhood losing the vulnerability and
the connectivity that vulnerability provides us with other humans. Owen Marcus,
(08:57):
who's an expert in men's mental emotional health one of
my early gifts, said amazingly that studies show that little
boys and girls at age two, the boys are more
sensitive really once, yes, but once they get a little
bit older, the boys lose that and the girls maintain it.
And what the girls maintain is the emotional connectivity to
(09:18):
other people, particularly the women and their circles of support.
And little boys that grow to be men do not
have the same emotional vulnerability and connectivity and don't have
the same support system naturally when they get to crises
in their lives. You know, it's one thing to have
lots of friends, but it's very different to have men
(09:42):
where you feel you can be yourself, you can share
your weaknesses. You can be vulnerable, you can be emotional.
Many men don't have that, but it turns out that
most women do have it. So all of a sudden,
these boys that became men get into the cauldron of midlife,
the relationship isn't working and to kind of go to
their own corner alone to start, and they don't understand
(10:05):
how to be connected. And that's a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So it's mostly a programming thing.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Then. That's so interesting to me that men are when
they're younger, more sensitive. I mean, it kind of makes
sense to me with some of some other theories that
I'm working through, but I can't Yeah, I can't wrap
my mind around what exactly happens to a man during
the process. Because as a woman, we're so encouraged for community.
So how could a man in this situation in his midlife,
(10:33):
not having that experience throughout his life change that, Like,
how can a man reach out for community during a
hard time like this.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I'm so glad you led me to this question. You
got to take a risk. Start with one person now
that could be a therapist. I think the great thing
is with better help and modern mental health. I think
mental health is being destigmatized. God blessed, and I think
that men should understand that there is no shame in
(11:03):
seeking help. So you can get help from multiple places.
I think that you can get help from a therapist's
you know, I've mentioned you can get help from a friend.
Maybe it's a male friend that your instinct tells you
you could be vulnerable with, and you could say, hey,
I need help and I need your help and take
a chance. Trust your instincts and take a chance. I
(11:25):
think the other piece of it is developing practices that
support our own internal emotional and mental health. Whether it's meditation.
I meditate regularly, whether it's a practice that takes you
out of the dark and into the light. Heck, Tom
stur just talks about how his divorce he found Instagram,
(11:46):
reels and TikTok and he just laughed ten minutes a
day at the absurdity of what's on these platforms. But
I think back to your question, Men need to trust
their instincts and take a risk to connect with other people.
Or it could be a woman in your life. Is
there a woman in your life whom you trust and
you could be vulnerable with.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Okay, Well, that leads me to the next piece that
I want to discuss something that I've noticed between friends
of mine. I mean, I'm midlife, I'm forty two. So
friends of mine going through the process of divorce, whether
it's a man or a woman, there is one significant
difference in every single situation. And the women that I
see going through the divorce take a break. They like
(12:30):
take a pause. They're focused on either whether they have kids,
or the process of the divorce, or healing themselves, like
going through the grief process of the relationship, kind of
finding themselves again. And all of the men immediately start dating.
So is part of that, in your opinion based on
(12:52):
this searching for connection? Maybe maybe that's not been safe
for me, like my men friends to go to other men.
Maybe they don't have those communities or why is that happening?
What is behind this?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
That's interesting? Well, by the way I saw you had
an astrology expert. My wife is a huge lay astrology
expert herself, and I think my wife would say channeling
her is I bet the Capricorn moon women start dating
right away. I'm a Capricorn. Probably Harry achievement oriented, got
my to do list. Your question about the differences between
(13:23):
men and women rebounding and dating right away, You're probably right.
I think any man or woman who is self aware
needs to take a pause and not seek another relationship.
When you're going through your divorce, you're not in a place,
you don't know what you want. You're probably reactive and
(13:46):
you're going to hurt someone else. The truth is, you're
gonna take your hurt and you're going to hurt someone else.
My first guest of my First Seasons an amazing relationship
expert named Kama Bojuani. You can see her on NBC
and she's at commonolive dot com and she talks about
her own experience of separation divorce, which she's going through
(14:08):
right now. She talks about it openly, and she talks
about how if you go out to the dating apps,
you can find anything you want. As we all know,
you can find any mode and anything you want, and
that will not lead you down a good path if
you're in the middle of your separation divorce. Now, men,
(14:29):
I think who are in that pain. I think it
is very natural to want to find a distraction, whether
it's sex or companionship or whatever you want to find.
And for guys who live from here and want to
pointing to my head, which is most people. I think
(14:52):
that rebounding is a natural instinct. I just say, don't
do it.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Don't do it.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
No, but you said you are remarried, correct, So what
would your suggestions be? So wait until you're officially divorced
possibly or what are the parameters?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Give me some tips here?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, well I got separated seven years ago June, okay,
and divorced, you know, a good while ago. My financial
settlement was separated from my legal divorce, So okay, that's
an important distinction. But what I would say is you've
got to trust yourself and how you are mentally and emotionally, spiritually,
(15:40):
and really check in with that before you actually get
out there and start dating you and want to have
a relationship. Now, what are the other pieces? Are you
emotionally available? What do you have to give to someone else?
Are you just trying to get? And I think the
other piece, yes, is the legal divorce. I think that
most women who have a lot going for them want
(16:03):
to see a guy who is legally divorced where the
county and a judge has stamped that legal divorce. I
remember when I was going through my separation. I think
I probably waited nine to twelve months after I was
separated before dating. Okay, I was on the ASPS. I
think a couple women early on called me out and said, hey,
(16:27):
are you are you legally divorced? Are you know? What
are you going for? I wasn't legally divorced yet, and
I think the truth is I probably wasn't ready, and
it was some time after that. Actually, in the spring
of twenty twenty, I connected with my now wife, and
you met the woman that I was meant to be
(16:48):
with for the rest of my life. I'm very happy
to say so. I would say that you've got to know,
you've got to be available, and I think being legally
divorced is a good idea.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Some form of unavailability if you're still married technically?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's all I've always viewed it.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I think it is, and I think there's a legal
piece to it, there's an emotional piece to it, and
ever lasted aside for him or herself. I think it
is possible if you've been separated for a while and
your legal divorce is in your sites, and you have
not been physical or emotionally connected to your ex for
(17:27):
a good while. I think there are people who were
ready and available. I think it's also valid for a
new potential partner to say, Hey, I'd like to see
you be legally divorced.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, but it depends.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I don't think every case is black and white.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Well. I like that you mentioned the pause though, because
I would imagine if you're coming out of a divorce
and let's say you've been married quite some time, you
might not know even what you want, which I would
imagine walking into dating could be kind of intimidating. Because
you've been in this relationship for a super long time.
You kind of have to get to know yourself again.
(18:03):
So can you talk through a little bit about that, Like,
what are some ways you mentioned meditation? But what are
some ways listeners may take the pause and really lean
into getting to know this new version of themselves.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's a great question, listen, I think speaking some personal experience.
So I'm a Libra and a double Libra. What does
that mean?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I love all this astrology talking about idea.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
By the way, I knew nothing about this and it
was a deep skeptic before I met my wife. Yes,
my wife is a star commercial attorney at a big
tech company, but she happens to be a lay expert
in astrology, and she started feeding me stuff when we
got together, and I thought, how do you know me
better than anyone has ever known me? Just from knowing
(18:49):
my time of day, day place, whatever, year of birth.
So it's legit. I mean, really it is legit, you know. Listen.
I think my first respects Kelly to the question how
do we start to know ourselves again? Is to look
inward and to understand ourselves internally. Try to understand our
(19:11):
own emotions, our own emotional patterns, and our own instincts.
And so I think for most men who come out
of child to disconnect it emotionally, because that's the way
boys are bred, right, I mean boys in this country,
unless you're part of a different, exceptional family or maybe
an exceptional different set of parents. We learn to suck
(19:33):
it up. We learned to achieve, we learned to somewhat
go to loan. As we've discussed. So I think the
first thing is is to figure out ways to understand
our own emotional map. How do we do it? Learning
to meditate and take some space internally allows the instincts
to come up and the self awareness to come up,
and those epiphanies to come up that we never knew
(19:55):
and never thought about. The whole roadmap is truly inside.
I mean God did make each of us with the
whole universe inside of us and all of the answers.
But we spend most of our time and I'm pointing
to my head again for those listening in our minds
and in our to do lists and in what society
(20:15):
or our parents, or our spouse or our friends think
we should be. So I'd say, first look inside and
find those practices. Meditation is a great is a great process.
The other thing is, I'm a big fan of therapy
and I'm actually working with a new therapist looking at
anger and looking at what part anger has played in
(20:35):
my life and my own different emotional parts. There's a
system called internal family systems that my late father in
law worked with called parts work. He passed away. He
was an amazing counselor to so many people, and I'm
working with someone who does that same work. Understand your
own emotional internal map. What isn't driving you to do?
The last thing I tell you and my last episode
(20:58):
guest Derek Haswell, who's the founder of ten Percent Happier,
great company that provides meditation and mindfulness coaching and apps,
and also the Dan Harris the ten percent Happier app.
You know Derek, who's an amazing guy, talks about how
we need to learn to respond not react, and when
(21:22):
we're run by old emotional patterns that are unexamined, we
live our life reacting not responding, So find ways to
slow down and look internally. All the answers are there.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I love all of everything you just said, and I
completely agree. And until you slow down, I find it
difficult as a human to hear anything, to get any
information coming from my insides or my internal map, as
you've talked about. So some in our culture seems so
driven by go go, go go, or compartmentalize like you
(21:54):
mentioned earlier. So sometimes it does take the slowing down
as hard as it can be to get the map,
to get the guidance. But it's not a bad thing.
I love that the way you just framed all of that.
I was just thinking through hearing about your experience and
(22:16):
you mentioned being on the dating app after your divorce.
How different was dating after being married a significant amount
of time from before you got married to then after
and like, how did you adjust? If people are listening,
maybe going through this process now, it could be kind
of intimidating, I would imagine, because the dating world has
changed quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
That's a true statement, Kelly. So I was with my
ex for let's see, a total of seventeen years feteen
years married and three years together before we got married.
So yeah, you know, ironically, when I was a young
guy just moved to the Bay Area, San Francisco, Bay
Area in the late nineties to pursue a career in tech,
(22:58):
Match dot com had launched a couple years before, and
I knew the founders. And by the way, when match
dot com launched, it was in a basement on Brian
Street in San Francisco. It was like thirty engineers and
they couldn't get real women to sign up for the service.
So they created female profiles and impersonated women. That's how
(23:19):
match dot com started. Now it's of course, it's a
part of IAC and it's a huge business. Legitimate men
and women on all of these apps. You know. I
think what you learn is be super overt about who
you are, real, what you want for real and put
that out right on your profile. And I think for
(23:43):
men who are very visual, men tend to go for
look and the looks, and we'll make compromises on other
things for looks. Okay, I'm being stereotypical, bad idea, Okay, Right,
So I think looks are important. Physical chemistry is super
important on that, right, it's not. But be clear about
(24:05):
what you want and interests and background and personality and intelligence, right,
all the things that it turns out like really matter,
and don't compromise those things in service of just hooking
up or a volume of dates, particularly when you're lonely
(24:27):
and if you're rebounding out, like we talked about earlier,
just looking to fill your dance card because your kids
are spending more time with your soon to be x
than with you, and that's created a huge hole. Maybe
your friends have receded from you because they're siding with
your soon to be X. Maybe you just feel lonely,
but I'd say fight those areges and instincts, know what
(24:48):
you want, you know the kind of person you want,
and be patient.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Okay, So there's that much interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I actually listen to your podcast with Tom Sturgis earlier
and and I loved this statement that he said, and
when we kind of mentioned having a successful divorce, but
he said to really try to switch your perspective to
it's not a failure just because it ended, which is
such a big portion of how I'm moving in relationships
(25:16):
in this point in my life as well. And it's
kind of become funny to me to even hear someone
say like, oh, well, that's the one, or you're looking
for the one, because I think relationships can serve us
so much in such a bigger capacity than just that
just the one that you're gonna be with forever. You know,
every relationship in my life has served a deep purpose,
(25:37):
and when I look at it in that way, they
all feel like successes. So how can we, as humans
who have been programmed to kind of, you know, since
day one, it's kind of like you got to find
the one partner, how can we look at the relationships
that have ended as successes.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
You just gave me chills, so good, Anya, as Ausors
would say. And I think our partners, wives, husbands are
not there to make us happy. Our partners are not
there to make us happy. It doesn't mean we shouldn't
be happy with the people in our lives. It doesn't
(26:14):
mean we shouldn't be loving and connected, but at the
end of the day, it's, you know, to be trite.
It's an inside job. And speaking for myself, I came
out of childhood like most high achievers any gram three
by the way, I know, you know the performer, Yeah,
the achiever. I came out with an internal deficit that
(26:39):
Derek has well. My last guest before Tom would call
them not enough. I would say many driven, high achieving
men and women have that deficit. It is a double
led sword. It's a double led sword that causes us
to seek things externally to get praise to fill the
deficit inside. Those things are achievement, they are jobs, they
(27:02):
are titles. Sometimes they're children. It is money, it is
the right in quotes, I did air quotes, the right
spouse or partner, and then we put all of this
pressure on the relationship to make us happy and fulfill us.
So you're right. I love what Tom said, which is
his first marriage was not a failure, it was a success.
(27:24):
He had two beautiful sons from that relationship. I have
three beautiful kids with my ex. I thank God for
my ex. She is a great woman. She is a
strong person. We're trying to figure out how to best
co of parents that we can. It's an ongoing process.
It's never perfect. And I thank god that I met
her and had three beautiful children. I have with her
(27:46):
number one thing in my life, along with my wife
and my step son. So reset and recast the idea
of your first marriage. If you're going through separation and divorce,
what did you learn from it? What did you gain
from it? Also, remember this, at any given point in
our lives, where everything that's led up to that point
(28:08):
creates our mindset and our field of vision, we make
the choices we make based on who we are at
that moment. And if you look back on yourself five
or ten or fifteen years ago or longer, when you
got married, that's the choice you were meant to make
at that time in your life for reasons that sometimes
(28:29):
you can't see. There was no other choice. That person,
that person who became your relationship and the person may
now be your ex. There was a reason, there was
a plan behind it. And so here we are now
with new awareness and new experience to make different choices.
But it's all good.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, it's all good.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I so resonate with the high achieving piece of what
you said. And I think because of that, so many
of us do feel like relationship and ships that end
are embarrassing or it was you know, it's just like
unsuccessful or I've carried a lot of shame in my
life just based on things failing. But exactly like you said,
when I look back now, each relationship that ended was
(29:14):
such a big part of my own evolution, which is
why we're all here anyway, right, just the journey of
our own growth. So if it got you there, it
was worth something. It was a success, even if it
was crazy looking in the moment when you're in it
and it needed to end, or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
That's right, Kelly, And I just say one other thing.
You know how when you look back on your life,
those moments of pain, those moments of change that felt
terrible in the moment, you can't see what's around the
next corner and the next corner in those moments. And
it's only through those moments of change and pain that
(29:53):
give rise to the opportunity for the great things that
are around the next corners. There's a cause and effect.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yes, yes, well it is. The podcast is called Halftime
with John. It's a whole platform. I'm so excited to
see what you do when you open it up to
even more than just the men talk, because I've loved
the men talk from a women's perspective even it's been
great for me. Where else can people find you if
they want to keep up with what you're doing and
(30:20):
just with the company.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Thank you, Kelly. So you can find us at Halftime
dot network. Okay, it's the site for the podcast. You
can find us on YouTube if you starts Halftime with John.
John is Jon. By the way, there's no age. You
can find us. Also wherever that you would listen to
your podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I will put all of that in the description of
the podcast for you guys. As always, John, thank you
so much for being here. I really enjoyed this conversation
me too, Kelly.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Thank you.
Host
Kelly Henderson
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