Did you know that most of what we communicate never comes out of our mouths? This week on Velvet’s Edge, Kelly sits down with internationally recognized body language expert and consumer psychology specialist Adrianne Carter to unpack the hidden signals behind our emotions. From spotting red flags in dating and knowing when someone’s lying, to the power of eye contact, confidence cues, and how Botox and filters affect how we connect—Adrianne explains why body language is the ultimate truth-teller.
Whether you’re navigating relationships, building trust at work, or just want to sharpen your “noticer” skills, this conversation will change the way you see people (and yourself) forever.
Adrianne on:
Ted Talk: bit.ly/ACTxTalk
Website: https://adriannecarter.com
Watch us on YouTube! (By clicking this)
Email us: theedge@velvetsedge.com
Follow the podcast on Instagram: @VelvetsEdgePodcast
HOSTS:
Kelly Henderson // @velvetsedge // velvetsedge.com
Follow Velvet's Edge on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/velvetsedge/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Adrian Carter is an internationally recognized body language expert, consumer
psychology specialist, and corporate trainer specializing in emotional, intelligent facial expressions,
and nonverbal communication. With over twenty years of experience, Adrian
has worked with companies such as American Express, Coca Cola, Goldman, Sachs,
and many more. She also works with security professionals and
(00:34):
corporate leaders to help them decode emotions, enhance interpersonal communication,
and create impactful brand key visuals.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi Adrian, Hello, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here.
I was telling you before the podcast, I am fascinated
by you. I went on these deep dives of all
the different kinds of work you do, and one of
the things that was coming up for me initially was
how do you even train to do something like this.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I'll give you the short answer.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I had my children quite young, and I didn't want
to go back to the nine to five. I wanted
a bit more flexibility. So if someone suggested I go
into market research, I was like, oh, I've never even
heard of market research twenty odd years ago, and it
was absolutely fascinating. But I quickly realized that actually market
research wasn't as good at that time as it could be.
So I traimed to be a counselor and psychotherapist. So
(01:26):
that's where the interest that really went further, understanding what
people do, why they do it, and you know, how
their brains work. And then I came across faces and
I'm like, oh, this is really interesting. People pull faces.
They say one thing, but their face says something different.
So fifteen years ago I went to America and trained
in California at the UC of California with doctor Erica
(01:50):
Rosenberg on facial expressions. How understanding the muscle movements of
the face create these expressions which are linked to emotions.
And the research world that I was still working, even
though I trained as a counter and psychotherapist, was all
about shopper behavior, how people buy, how people don't buy,
you know, all about their behavior, so it all became
(02:10):
very very interesting. So then I trained in body language
about thirteen years ago and it's just still grown from there.
So I left my general manager role in the research
business ten years ago and I've just really focused everything
on faces, body language and how do we use that
for the greater good? If you like earn money too
(02:31):
from it's you know, I'm not a charity.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I'm trying to do anything for free.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
No, no, So you know, how do we commercial like that?
How do we optimize our own body language? How can
teams perform better by understanding facial expressions and body language?
But my background was also consumer psychology, so why people
do what they do? So it's it's kind of layers
upon layers upon layers that's led me to where I
am today.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, you say, we can't not communicate. So even when
we're not using words, we're communicating. How much of a
percentage difference I don't know if you know the exact percentage,
but how much are we actually communicating with our bodies
and our faces versus our words?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
So there is a stat that's often used and often
misquoted actually from Albert Morabian, Professor Albert Morabian that he said,
when're talking about thoughts of feelings, that our body language
is fifty five percent of the communication. Now, that's not
true for every interaction. You know, if I was going
to give you directions now to leave your room wherever
you are, to go downstairs or to go upstairs, you know,
(03:33):
you'd need more than my body language. My words would
be super super important. Right, But that stat where I
do think it is useful. It is to consider more
than the words. Words are useful, But in some contexts
body language, tone of voice, facial expressions actually can sometimes
outweigh the words because we do say things nonverbally that
(03:55):
doesn't always match our words.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Right, So you're almost I think I heard you says
where you're almost muting half of the conversation if you're
not paying attention to the body language.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yes, exactly, that exactly that.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Well, how often in that studying of the body language
and starting to understand human psychology, I love we also
on the podcast are always talking about why we do
what we do, you know, what's driving us and all
of that stuff. So how often are our emotions just
vastly different from what our face and body are communicating.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
A lot of the time. And I believe and from
all my research and studying I've done, that emotions drive
most of our behavior. You know, even when you go
to the supermarket to buy something as innocuous as tea,
there could be some massive emotions that are driving that behavior.
Not not for everybody obviously, but We all do things
(04:49):
because we either like them or don't like them, or
don't do things because we don't like them. So these emotions,
I don't think we pay enough attention to how our
internal emotions are driving our external behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Say that again, how much our internal emotions are driving
our external behavior. So we're just not even paying attention.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
To that most of the time. And you know, I
deal a lot with teams, some functional, some very dysfunctional,
and often underneath the function and the dysfunction are emotions.
When people are emotionally well, they function well and make
more of an effort to function well with other people.
(05:29):
When emotions are taking over and they're not so useful
and dysfunctional teams are happening, there's often emotions that are
driving that dysfunction. So finding out what the emotions are
that are driving the behavior is the key really to
helping them to optimize what's really going on for themselves.
(05:49):
So understanding body language, understanding facial expressions, but also how
they really feel inside, because that's what drives our behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Isn't there a link between emotional and intelligent and understanding
kind of what you're talking about with the body language,
the facial expressions.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Can you talk about that connection?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah? So I was an emotional intelligence the first one
Global Emotional Intelligence a conference about three or four weeks ago.
And when we are emotionally well, you know, we handle
problems much better when we are emotionally not well. And
oftentimes people don't even realize they're emotionally not well, so
they don't even realize that actually they're doing things and
(06:29):
acting in certain ways that it's not useful to them. Now,
I believe all emotions are neither good neither bad, but
they are all a message for us. You know, if
you're feeling angry, that generally means in some way, you're
feeling threatened or something is in your way. If you're
feeling sad, that's always about loss, and it could be
(06:50):
a person, a pen, or a pet. You know, there's
loss somewhere, or even loss of identity or loss of role,
whatever it could be. So understanding the emotion that are
driving our behavior and driving other people's behaviors helps us
have empathy and helps us look at the situation sometimes differently.
So a team I was working with a couple of
months ago, there was a high level of uncertainty in
(07:13):
the team due to the leadership of the team. So
their behaviors were very much like trying to control, trying
to control each other, trying to control lots of different
aspects of the team, and actually all it was causing
was massive dysfunction. But actually, when you understand that uncertainty
is at the root of this, how do we give
control back then? How do we reassure how do we
(07:36):
have leadership that actually helps people feel more certain because
once they get that, they can emotionally function well and
can emotionally function well with each other. So I've made
it sound very simple, and it's not always that simple.
But understanding emotions is that is the first part of
any team analysis or personal analysis that I do, because
(07:59):
once we know what the emotion is, then we can
also understand is it being useful? Is it not being useful?
And you know, fear is a useful emotion. It keeps
us safe from danger. However, in some situations fear isn't
so useful. You know, fear is driving your behavior at
work or in your relationship, then you're going to try
and control the other person or people that's not useful.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
You know, it's just dawning on me as I was
listening to you give that description as you kept saying
personal awareness or and I think I just assumed when
I was prepping for this podcast, Oh, this will help
us to understand other people. But how much of this
can we use on ourselves because a lot of times
are we feeling something inside saying something different, but then
(08:44):
our movements, our actions, our facial expressions are communicating something
completely separate from that.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Absolutely, you know, we often edit our words editor we're saying,
edit how we're really feeling, and sometimes we don't even
know how we're feeling. So everyone thinks body language is
all about how do I read other people? But where
it's really useful is how do I read myself? How
do I understand myself better? You know, sometimes when I'm
(09:11):
having a bit of an off day and I feel
a bit rubbish, I'll go to the mirror and have
a look because I think I don't really know what's
wrong with me today, but I know I don't feel
great going out, a look in the mirror and I
do this, you know, and look like, oh, okay, I
can see some sadness or I can see some fear
on my facial expression. Okay, So because I know what
that looks like and what that means. I can adjust,
I can adapt or you know, do something different rather
(09:35):
than okay, you know, today might be feeling sad. It's
an anniversary of I loved one's death or something. Okay,
so today I'm just going to be kind to myself
and I'm allowed to feel sad. I'm allowed to have
that emotion. Whereas if you're trying to fight it all
the time because I'm not really sure what it is
or why you're feeling so rubbish, then that's not being
very kind to yourself, and it's not being aware of
(09:56):
what's going on for you. And sometimes it's okay to
be sad, it's okay to you know, just allow the
feelings to be there because they're given us a message,
and that message is often really important.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, it's really an interesting thought to think about. If
we're not tapped into our own emotions but also our
own body language and what our bodies are communicating, how
disconnected we actually may be from what's going on in reality.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, that is absolutely okay.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, I mentioned that I have to talk to you
about how to use this in dating and relationships because
I know my listeners that that is going to be
the first thing they're thinking about. I heard you in
another interview say that poker players are typically the best
at controlling their body movements or body language, which makes
total sense. Obviously they're trying not to give away their hand.
But immediately when you said that, I thought, what about
(10:47):
sociopaths or psychopaths, or serial killers, or what about a
lot of my ex boyfriends. That's kind of the train
of thought I had. So can you talk to that
a little bit about who is control roll in their
body language in a way because they do have the awareness,
or maybe they're lying or they're up to something, And
then we'll get into maybe a little bit how to
(11:08):
read that.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So there are a number of types, and you've mentioned
a few different types of people that will hide their
body language or not even so much hide like a
psychopath or a sociopath. They don't actually feel the feelings,
so they're not hiding. There's nothing going on.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
I don't have it.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, they don't have it. But then there are a
group of people who do hide how they feel. Now
that the reason they hide how they feel could be
for lots of different reasons. I often find when I
come across an adult who is quite shut down emotionally,
don't reveal much. I try to understand where that's coming from.
And often it's coming from a time when they've not
felt safe to show how they really feel. So it
(11:46):
could be as a child, it could be as an adult.
You know, it's not all about childhood, but oftentimes it's
been from a time where they've not felt safe to
show their emotions, so they shut down, and that becomes
learned behavior. Then people in the military, people in security industry,
they're often quite shut down. You often don't get much
emotional response. It's not true of all of them. This
is I'm just generalizing a little bit verre but it's
(12:08):
because they've had to keep their emotions in check to
do the things they've they've done. You know, from a
security perspective, they've shut down their emotions, and then they're
expected to go home and be all fuzzy and warm
and emotional. It's not that easy to do. You know,
people can't do it within the security industry. I do
security aspect, but also from a personal aspect. You know,
(12:29):
some of these men they go home and their wives
expect them to be emotionally aware. Well, that's really difficult
because all day at work they've been emotionally shut down
to do the things they need to do for security.
And other times, children that have been abused either mentally,
physically sexually, they often shut down how they feel too,
because it's not safe for them to show how they feel,
(12:50):
and that can carry on into adulthood and affects all
relations you know, relationships. So there's lots of different reasons
why people may be shut down, not all sinister. Maybe
they're just not even aware that actually it's a good
thing to show emotions.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, that's sort of The psychology background that you have
is so fascinating with all of this to be able
to look into Wait, okay, they're not showing emotions of
what's actually happening. So how do we decipher between a
person that is like not feeling it at all and
then a person who's maybe repressed. How do we decipher
(13:29):
between a person that is like not feeling it at
all and then a person who's maybe repressed or has
been taught to not express emotion or even like in codependency.
I was thinking about my job a little bit, and
when you work for celebrities as I do. Sometimes, like
you can't really have emotions yourself. You know, their world
(13:49):
is the world you're showing up for, and so you
kind of have to not be a human. So like,
how do we differentiate between the different types of people
or why there might not be either feeling emersions or
just showing them.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, So for me, it's all about questions and all
of body language and understand other people. It's all about questions.
How I use the body language and facial expression stuff
is to ask really good questions. As people say, did
you just read my mind? Like, absolutely not. I cannot
read anybody's mind. However, your body language and your facial
expressions will give me a really good clue as to
what might be going on for you, and I use
(14:24):
that clue with questions to try and understand your point
of view. If I assume anything, you know, if I
always assume that arms crossed is defensive, I'm going to
be wrong probably seventy five p cent at the time,
because a lot of people just sit with their arms
crossed just because it's really comfortable. I do it myself.
So it's about asking really good questions. If I was
(14:45):
in an interaction and suddenly somebody went and their face changed,
and you know you hear that. Okay, I'm going to
ask you a question like, oh, what happened? Just then
you feel like I feel like you shut down. But however,
if someone started an interaction and they just cross their
arms and nothing else changes, I'm just going to assume
it's really comfortable for them, or I may even ask
them a question, just say everything okay with you? So
(15:08):
questions I think are people's best friend when it comes
to this kind of work.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's so interesting because even if you ask someone, that
goes back to emotional intelligence because if they don't know,
and they don't even realize they're doing something, because I
think that's probably very subconscious for us, right.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, A lot of the times it is. And I
wouldn't ask questions for everything. I would only ask a
question when the interaction I need to really clarify, okay,
I need to really understand what's going on for the person.
I wouldn't you know. I was delivering workshops last week
in Switzerland, and every time someone does a movement, I'm
not going to ask them a question, right, I'm just
(15:43):
gonna carry on. If I see some a cluster of
movements or a cluster of faceal expressions. Okay, then maybe
I might just say, tell me a little bit more
about what's going on for you, and I'd clarify and
try and you know, get on board with them, or
did that make sense to you? Because I've seen confusion
on their face? Did that makes sense? So I'm using
(16:03):
this information all the time, but not in a way
that becomes annoying that I clarify every single thing, because
you don't always need to know what's going on. Sometimes
you can just let it go, and sometimes you just
ignore what you've seen because it's not appropriate. So I'll
give you an example of that. Me and my husband.
We're out for dinner with some friends of ours a
few years ago, and the wife turned to the husband
and said, we're really happy, aren't we. We're happily married,
(16:25):
aren't we. And the husband did this.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
We kind of did like a half smirk.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Kind smile, and we call that. It is called a
half smile, but it's to do with the facial expression
and the emotion of contempt, which means I feel superior.
You might think that, but I don't think that. And
my husband looked at me, and I was like, none
of our business. You know, in that context, we've seen
something that we know it means something a little bit more.
(16:54):
His wife didn't pick up on it. None of our business.
We don't ever ever talk about that to them. I
talked about to each other in the car and haven't
be like, oh, did you see that?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But we certainly wouldn't say it in that because it's
not appropriate. You know that it's not our business, and
I certainly don't want to go into marital relationship therapy.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I was actually wondering if there is some sort of
ethical guideline that you try to live by with this,
because you could almost it's the same way that when
I speak to psychics, I'm always like, how do you
not tap in on everyone all the time? And it's
almost invasive or invasion of privacy in a.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Way absolutely can be yes. So for me, it's all
about kindness. Okay, if I see something, you know, can
I deal with this in a kind way? Can I
approach it in a kind way and highlight it? Or
if I can't do that, then I'm not going to
say anything because for me, kindness is absolutely king. I
just think this is the knowledge that I have and
(17:53):
that I trained people to have has to be used
with kindness.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, that seems like a good guideline. Okay, to get
back to dating. There have been obviously relationships I mentioned
that I've been in the past where people have looked
me in the eye and lied, and obviously, looking back,
I knew, like, yes, I'm a very intuitive person, and
if I allow myself to tap in, I think that
I instinctually am reading body language and things like that
(18:19):
all the time. But you know, I wouldn't take it,
or I would take it at face value. And I'm
curious if my listeners are hearing this and they're thinking, oh,
you know, I don't know about this guy, or they're
in dating relationships or in relationships like friendships are at work.
Is there like one red flag movement or indicator of
(18:40):
lying that we can be looking for.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
There are lots, but they all mean different things to
different people. So I always say to someone, firstly, trust
your intuition. Yeah, if you're feeling a little bit like
I'm really not sure, trust that. Absolutely trust that. And
I think we're taught not to trust that any more,
but we should. We should absolutely trust that, And A
second one is when someone's behavior changes. Notice it. So
(19:05):
if for example, someone's a fidgeter, means nothing. It's what
they always do, it's their normal behavior. If they stop fidgeting,
that's when I become interested. Oh, because they've changed their behavior.
So now what's going on? If someone talks a lot
and then they suddenly stop talking a lot, Okay, now
what's going on? Yeah, because that's not their normal behavior.
(19:25):
So that that's a fail safe rule that works with
everybody and anybody. That sign of lie in that sign
of deception, it's when their behavior changes from their norm
So you have to know somebody quite well to know
when their behavior changes. You know, I've just met you
for the first time today. I would have no idea
what your signs of deception are because I don't know
you well enough. Right, Okay, However, there would be things
(19:47):
I would be looking for. So if you were saying
things to me, I would be looking for a nose wrinkling.
So this you know. I know your listeners can't say that,
but the rinkling of the nose where you kind of
scrunch up your nose. Yeah, people often do that when
they say something they don't believe.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I'm trying to spink when I ever do that.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
So, for example, my friends say, do you want to
come out with us this weekend? And I've had a
really busy week and I really don't want to go,
but I don't want to say no because I'm going
to put it in the WhatsApp group later on, which
is a lot less threatening. I'm like, go, yeahah yah,
I'll be there. And those rings.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
So when you said yeah, yeah, yeah, she squandered her
nose up.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Okay, yeah, that'll do.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
The other thing that people do when they when they
say something but they've got no confidence, or it could
be a little bit of a porky pie lie, is
the shoulder will go up just one sided. A double
sided shoulder shrug means. I don't know that's generally true
for most people in the Western world. But when the
one sided shoulder shrug goes for me, it's always my
(20:44):
left and I do this too. I can't stop my
body from giving this one away, right, But when my shoulder,
my left shoulder goes and it's just that one. Whatever
I've just said, I'm probably not going to do, okay,
So that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Fascinating. That is a really good one. I want to
touch back to the first point that you made, are
our bodies communicating. I'm a big energy person, and I'm
just curious when you said listen to your intuition. Immediately
I thought, is there a way that my body and
that person's body we're communicating without us and like we're
saying different words obviously, but like we're our bodies having
(21:18):
a whole nother dialogue.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I think so too. I'm a great believer in energy.
You know, when some walks into the room, you feel
their presence or not, as the case may be. I
we definitely react energetically to other people. And I think,
you know, part of the energetic stuff that I've certainly
learned about. We are all connected in some way, or
that you and I are connected. Now we've had this conversation, Yeah,
(21:41):
we are not connected. So you know, our energy is
I like you, you like me. That's an energy thing
as well as a visual thing, as well as a
body language thing, as well an appearance thing. I think
energy is working on a whole other level, and I
completely believe that that our interactions are shaped by that energy.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Let's talk about eye contact because I mentioned people looking
you directly in the eyes and lying, So I think
like eye contact has always talked about as the big
indicator of lying, and I think to myself that can't
be true though, because most of the people that have
lied to me have looked me in the face and
done it. So can you talk to about that a
little bit, like, how do we understand what eye contact is?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Is it important?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I know there's a big piece of eye contact that
can be for deep connection as well.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
So can you absolute eye contact?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yes? So normal eye contact in everyday life should be
between sixty to seventy percent of the interaction. That's normal
for most people. Now, neurodiverse people, often not all of them,
often have less eye contact. Some people who are lying
rather than you know, we've always been taught or when
they look away they're lying, right. Oftentimes the truth is
(22:55):
it's the opposite. A liar will try to hold your
gaze longer for a couple of reasons. Firstly, to make
sure that you're going along with what they're trying to
make you believe, and secondly, because everyone knows this myth
that liars look away, So I'm going to hold your
gaze really recently so that you believe me. Actually, the
opposite is actually true, that people will hold the gaze
(23:16):
longer than is normal because they are lying interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Okay, well, then I've done a bunch of energy type
workshops or like tntra with you, like a tantra workshop.
It's such a big part of the deep connection with
your partner to do left eye to left eye. So
why is that what's happening with our bodies when we're
engaging in that kind of eye contact?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And I heard have you heard of the studies where
you can almost get anyone to fall in love with you?
I think it's two minutes or three minutes. Have you
heard about that?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
But I heard seven minutes is like a deep soul connection.
Once you look left eye to left eye for seven minutes,
it's like it unlocks some sort of soul communication or
soul connection. That's the only piece that I've heard.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
But okay, I've not heard about that bit. However, it
would make a lot of sense to me. So there
was a study done by a psychologist a few years
ago now where he got two strangers to sit and
he did pairs of people didn't know each other, and
a high percentage of these couples fell in love and
they had to ask questions, and while they were asking
(24:19):
and answering the questions, to keep looking into each other's eyes.
And it was something about three minutes. I need to
check the stats on that, but yeah, once you stare
or not stare, but that really make that deep eye contact,
you'd begin to develop feelings or at the very least
a bond. Now, with some of my private clients, one
of the questions I always ask them is how much
(24:40):
do you like yourself? And which normally gets a bit
of a shock, like no one was ever asking that before.
Now'm not talking about the affirmations where you know, you
look at the mirror say I love myself, I love myself.
I'm talking about how much do you really like yourself?
And oftentimes people are saying, well, not a lot. So
I respond to that with, well, if you don't like yourself,
your brain is subcoudtually saying is why would anybody else
(25:02):
like me either? So I get them to start looking
in the mirror, maybe for five seconds a day, and
just really look into their own eyes to create that connection.
And while they're looking, they can't have any judgment about themselves.
They can say nice things, yeah, I cannot say anything
horrible about themselves. They can say, oh, my eyes got
really good today. And this is not while you're cleaning
(25:23):
your teeth, and it's not while you're brushing your hair
or whatever other beauty routines you might have. This is
just going to the mirror and looking into your own
eyes and just start with a few seconds and then
build it up until it becomes really comfortable, until you
can do a minute, two minutes, and just just look
at yourself without judgment. Because our self esteem, our liking
(25:43):
of ourselves affect every relationship we have.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
That really just teared me up. And because I think
unless you've done that mirror work, I mean, it's so difficult.
Which is really interesting how hard it can be to
look at your own eyes. Again, I didn't think about
when I was first bringing up I contact. I was
just using it in relation to other people. But the
idea of how you talk to yourself and your relationship
(26:06):
with yourself, how much you like yourself, all the messaging
you're sending to your own body, that is crazy to
think about. So if someone wanted to just start that today,
if they're listening. How I mean, do you just say
just do it as long as you can, or yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Mean, don't make it so that it becomes I never
want to do that again. So that's why I say
five seconds some people, but it's ten seconds. It depends
how much you like or dislike yourself, So people find
it really hard, really hard. You just look at themselves
in the mirror. So just start really small and build
it up. If it's five seconds a day, make it
six seconds tomorrow and maybe seven seconds the next day,
(26:43):
until you get to ten and then do ten seconds
for a few days. And just what you're training your
mind and body is to do become comfortable with yourself.
And that's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
You said it in relation to like how much you
like yourself. The other thing I had experience with was
going through like a super traumatic time and doing that
kind of mirror work. I wasn't allowing myself to acknowledge
the feelings of sadness, of grief of what I'd been through,
And when I would look at myself, I would just
start sobbing immediately when I saw my eyes. It was
(27:24):
almost like looking at a person who had been through war,
you know, like a soldier coming out of war. But
I hadn't been able to acknowledge it until I looked
into my own eyes. And I didn't really make that
connection until you just said this and the other thing.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
You know, I don't know if you saw my ted talk,
but I talk about as humans we need to feel
seen and heard. That also means by ourselves.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Yes, it's most importantly there, I think.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So, I think it all starts with us. You know,
I should probably gathering from our conversation, it starts with me.
Every interaction I go into it starts with me. Yes,
I also to have empathy with the other person. I
want to interact and create great relationships, but it starts
with me. If I've got a great relationship with myself,
I go into that interaction and in a much better place.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Well, I mentioned I work with celebrities in I do
hear makeup and styling. So it's all beauty business. And
I'm curious because in twenty twenty five, it feels like
everyone's either having plastic surgery or botox or filler. How
much is that impacting what we can read with body
language and facial expressions.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Massively masslee, Yes, So I have a client in production.
She's in production of adverts and content, and she's had
quite a lot of work done to her face. And
she said, did you notice? I said I did not.
She well, you never said anything. I said, well, not
my business. You know, yeah, I noticed, but I'm not
going to say anything. It's that kindness again, you know,
(28:49):
it's not my job to highlight it. However, I said,
do people find you hard to read now? She said, oh, yeah,
really hard. But I like that. And I said, the
only thing I would be aware of if I was
you is that when we can't read somebody, we become
very uncertain around them, and we're more likely to avoid them.
When we can read people, we engage, we pick up
(29:10):
those empathy cues, we connect on an energetic level. When
we can't do that because we can't read their face,
because they can't move their face in any way, we
become uncomfortable as humans. So I would just be aware
of that from that perspective. And that is so true.
You know, I've got appliance that I've been working with
for a while, and I always thought she was really
(29:30):
cold and really hard. She's absolutely lovely underneath, but nobody
knows that because she has no movement in her face.
When you really get to know her, you see a
little bit more movement. But she's created this perfect face,
absolutely beautiful, but it's hard to connect to and people
feel like she's difficult. She's really shocked when someone says
(29:50):
that she's difficult, because I'm not because inside she's got
everything else opposite to being difficult going on, but she's
not showing it in any way.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
We will actually avoid people that we can't read. Yes,
that's subconscious, right, like we don't We just can't want
to be around.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, completely subconscious emotions. Stuff happens often below conscious level.
So I do, and I've done lots of examples of
this where I'll show the picture of someone smiling, lovely,
genuine smile of this picture, same picture, but it's a
pose smile or just you know, a gentle smile. There's
no real activation going on. Right. People will react seventy
(30:32):
five percent more with this than this because this we understand,
it's emotional, it's authentic, it's genuine. As humans, we're drawn
to it.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
This.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We're not that sure a backs, we don't really know
what it means.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That is fascinating because there's sometimes where I just don't
like people and I don't know why, but I bet
it's part of that.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, absolutely, And your subconscious is working all the time.
So you may your subconscious may have seen something in
that person that somebody else who did you wrong or
you didn't like from years ago, and they've picked up
similar cues and clues, so you're subcontrus go hmm, I
don't like you. But it's all happening below conscious level.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So I know a lot of your work is working
with these big brands that we mentioned some of them
at the beginning. So how is that tying into what
you bring to these corporations as far as how they
should advertise in branding and things like that.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
So all of the content, so whether it's any sort
of media where it involves a person, the opportunities to
get it right and to get it wrong are massive.
You know, some of the key visuals that I advise on.
So what happens is that a brand, say like Dove
or you know hair care brands. Personal brands mostly send
me some content images that they're going to use for
their advertising in their marketing, and I'll write reports on
(31:51):
the image and say this is how your consumers or
your shoppers will feel from the talents facial expression and
body language. This is the message there sending as a
human and it's either going to repel or it's going
to bring people forward. And what we want to do
is we want to engage. It's not always happiness. Happiness
isn't always the right emotion. Sometimes it is fear. We
(32:13):
want to in sell a little bit of fear. So
I always say to the brands, start with how you
want your shoppers and consumers to feel when they look
at your key visual or when they look at your media.
How do you want them to feel? And that's your
starting point, and then you build from there with the talent.
And you know, from casting the personality types. That's another
thing that I do that don't really shout about, but
(32:33):
you know how we can personality type people from their
face actually and perception science how we read other people.
So using that science gives brands a much better opportunity.
And I worked out a few years ago now, so
this has probably grown this figure that in the UK alone,
the hair care market just for shampoos, conditioners, those sorts
(32:56):
of products. I'm not talking about hair dye or anything
else is worth something like thirty nine pounds for women
aged eighteen to thirty four. Well, if you just get
a one percent increase, that's a lot of revenue generator. Yeah,
And I know from all the research I've done that
if you use the right facial expression, the right body language,
(33:17):
they'll get at least ten percent more engagement, more sales.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
The fact that all of that has to be thought
about in making a sale is crazy, actually, because I
thought of casting like that has to matter first of all,
from what we just talked about, like does someone even
have movement in their face? And then also like how
genuine are they going to come across? Because I think
there's two types of actors, and some of them are
(33:41):
believable and then some of them you feel like they're
acting yep.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
And so much content out there is created around the acting,
whereas what we want is authenticity as humans. That's what
we respond to, you know, the fake pictures of right,
nobody believes that's authentic. So that's missing a big chunk
of an opportunity that if you just capture that person
in the authentic moment, is going to do a much
(34:06):
better job for you. You know, I had a jewelry
brand that a friend of mine actually was their jewelry brand,
and I said, all of the talents showing the jewelry
looked really miserable. Why don't you just do a trial
and take the faces off. So just show the jewelry
on an arm, on a necklace, but take off the
facial expression. Sales went up with something like seventy six
(34:28):
percent good grief level, and they were like, thank you
very much. That has like transformed their business because they
say all you know, lots of brands will say, oh,
we don't want people to look at the face. We're
not interesting that. Well, we're interested in the clothes or
whatever it is. But as humans, the first thing we
do when we come into contact with another person is
look at their face. All of the eye tracking studies
(34:49):
prove that it's the first thing we do. So if
you get the facial expression wrong straight away, you're either
repelling or engaging. So it just makes sense to pay
attention to that. Take it off. Take the face off.
If it's not doing a good job.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Right, Okay, take it off.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So that's interesting to think about within social media and
this kind of influencer culture because I feel like it
used to be, especially Instagram, it used to be very staged,
and we all kind of did this formula of look
how pretty this is. But what seems to be selling
more now, and I've heard this across the board is
authenticity totally. That so people don't care as much about
(35:27):
pretty perfect all of that. They want to be able
to feel like it's real.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Absolutely. And the reason is, you know, as we become
more a and I evolved, deep fake photographs, deep fake videos,
we want to trust what we're seeing is real. The
authenticity piece and trust are now more important than ever before.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
So you know, we have a lot of big because.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
We have a lot of fake stuff. And that's not
just plastic surgery or fillers or botox, it's actually the
deep fakes too. People want to connect in a more
human way than ever before. I'm busy than I've ever
been in this day and age because people want to trust.
How do I show more trust? How do I make
people trust me more? How do you know? How do
(36:14):
I build my personal brand so that you know, I
sell me? That's become so important.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
But why is it?
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Isn't it fascinating that people have to ask you how
to be themselves?
Speaker 3 (36:26):
That's like in the bigger picture of.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
This whole conversation, I was thinking, Wow, how sad that
we are so programmed to perform that we don't even
know how to be authentic anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, very sad, really sad. But it happens more than
you perhaps realize. It's so important that trust is going
to be the new currency.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Actually, yeah, I think you're totally right, especially with AI
coming so hard. Just to wrap things up, I have
a couple of rapid fire questions. Is there a moment
that you've read someone wrong that there was a big
impact for that, I mean.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Not recently.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Okay, there is someone so European.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I'm not going to say too much because I don't
want to give any identifying details away, but I read
it was a man. Actually I read him really as
a pompous twit, and actually, on my first impression, his
body language, everything about him was designed to make people
think he was very pompous and arrogant. Actually, underneath it,
(37:30):
he's a really nice man and I am actually working
with him now. If you'd have said to me, of
all the people you'll be working with as a private client,
he would be the last one that I would have
ever said would want to become a private client of mine.
And he approached me and said, I'd really like you
to coach me and help me show who I really am,
because he just had no idea. I mean, he came.
(37:50):
He did the pomposity as a means of he actually
felt inside quite low self esteem. So the pomposity, it's
all about putting this front on this, you know, the
big I am, when actually he's really not the big Iaman.
He's actually a really lovely person to leave. So I'm
working with him, And I was really wrong about him
because I just thought he would never be interested in, yeah,
(38:13):
actually becoming who he really is and showing that authenticity
and that trust. And he's a client, So yeah, I
got that one wrong.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Actually, that's interesting that we can almost project like ours,
call that persona, but we can project big puffed up
negative energy too, even when that's not what's actually happening
on the inside.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, absolutely interesting.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
What's a cue that you may still struggle to interpret
in real time?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Is there one?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
If there's more than one person interaction, I can't capture everybody,
much as I would like to be, like, yeah, but
I can't. So you know, I miss stuff, and also,
you know awareness, I don't always switch this on. I'm
not constantly on the lookout to read people, and sometimes
I miss stuff and somebody else will say to me, oh,
did you say that they did it. No, I've never
even saw it completely unaware. Yeah, because I'm not switched
(39:04):
on all the time looking for signs and signals, it
would be exhausted.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Is there something you're practicing in your body right now?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah. I hold my shoulders up quite high. I often
find myself just relaxing, and that's anxiety. Actually, it's often
a sign of anxiety holding So I often think, like,
just remind myself to drop my shoulders, because I do that.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
One of the emotions that drives my behavior is low
level anxiety. Not that I'm a masket case of nerves.
It's just this, you know, learned behavior as a child
that I want to do a good job. I really
care about doing a good job, and that transforms itself
into a bit of anxiety. So oftentimes my shoulders are
up here when actually they should be down here. So
that's something I'm working on all of them.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I think that's a very common one, right, like or
just being tense, like I'll sometimes notice I'm not even
taking deep breaths, yes, if I'm stressed like that, So
it's just that tension or you know, we're holding it
on in our body. That's a good one I think
for everyone to pay attention to. Well, we mentioned the
Ted talk, so I'm going to put a lea to
that in the bio is really it's actually great because
it's like twenty minutes max, and it teaches a lot.
(40:06):
You show the pictures of what you were describing with
the smiles, which I found to be very fascinating, So
I will put that in the description of this podcast
for you guys.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
You also have a book. Can you tell us a
little bit about the book.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
It's a few years old now. It's called The Face Whisperer,
and it's all about faces and emotions and you know
how you can pay attention to and the applications for that.
I do have another book coming, but it's not quite
well yet. It's called Beyond Words.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Beyond Words, that's a good yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah, And it touches on that energy stuff. It touches
on our emotions and how we hold our emotions and
faced expressions and body language. So there's there's everything about
where I'm at now, it's the updated version of the
Face Whisperer.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I love that connection between all of them. Well, we'll
be on the lookout for that. Where can people keep
up with you so we can see when this comes out?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
LinkedIn TikTok, Instagram okay, they are my three main alms
as well. Yeah, all the.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Places Okay, Well, I will put all of the links
for you guys in the description of this podcast. I
could talk to you all day because I find it
so fascinating. So thank you so much for this. I'm
so excited for you guys to hear about this and
just thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Thank you, Kelly
Adrian Carter is an internationally recognized body language expert, consumer
psychology specialist, and corporate trainer specializing in emotional, intelligent facial expressions,
and nonverbal communication. With over twenty years of experience, Adrian
has worked with companies such as American Express, Coca Cola, Goldman, Sachs,
and many more. She also works with security professionals and
(00:34):
corporate leaders to help them decode emotions, enhance interpersonal communication,
and create impactful brand key visuals.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi Adrian, Hello, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here.
I was telling you before the podcast, I am fascinated
by you. I went on these deep dives of all
the different kinds of work you do, and one of
the things that was coming up for me initially was
how do you even train to do something like this.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I'll give you the short answer.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I had my children quite young, and I didn't want
to go back to the nine to five. I wanted
a bit more flexibility. So if someone suggested I go
into market research, I was like, oh, I've never even
heard of market research twenty odd years ago, and it
was absolutely fascinating. But I quickly realized that actually market
research wasn't as good at that time as it could be.
So I traimed to be a counselor and psychotherapist. So
(01:26):
that's where the interest that really went further, understanding what
people do, why they do it, and you know, how
their brains work. And then I came across faces and
I'm like, oh, this is really interesting. People pull faces.
They say one thing, but their face says something different.
So fifteen years ago I went to America and trained
in California at the UC of California with doctor Erica
(01:50):
Rosenberg on facial expressions. How understanding the muscle movements of
the face create these expressions which are linked to emotions.
And the research world that I was still working, even
though I trained as a counter and psychotherapist, was all
about shopper behavior, how people buy, how people don't buy,
you know, all about their behavior, so it all became
(02:10):
very very interesting. So then I trained in body language
about thirteen years ago and it's just still grown from there.
So I left my general manager role in the research
business ten years ago and I've just really focused everything
on faces, body language and how do we use that
for the greater good? If you like earn money too
(02:31):
from it's you know, I'm not a charity.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I'm trying to do anything for free.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
No, no, So you know, how do we commercial like that?
How do we optimize our own body language? How can
teams perform better by understanding facial expressions and body language?
But my background was also consumer psychology, so why people
do what they do? So it's it's kind of layers
upon layers upon layers that's led me to where I
am today.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, you say, we can't not communicate. So even when
we're not using words, we're communicating. How much of a
percentage difference I don't know if you know the exact percentage,
but how much are we actually communicating with our bodies
and our faces versus our words?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
So there is a stat that's often used and often
misquoted actually from Albert Morabian, Professor Albert Morabian that he said,
when're talking about thoughts of feelings, that our body language
is fifty five percent of the communication. Now, that's not
true for every interaction. You know, if I was going
to give you directions now to leave your room wherever
you are, to go downstairs or to go upstairs, you know,
(03:33):
you'd need more than my body language. My words would
be super super important. Right, But that stat where I
do think it is useful. It is to consider more
than the words. Words are useful, But in some contexts
body language, tone of voice, facial expressions actually can sometimes
outweigh the words because we do say things nonverbally that
(03:55):
doesn't always match our words.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Right, So you're almost I think I heard you says
where you're almost muting half of the conversation if you're
not paying attention to the body language.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yes, exactly, that exactly that.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Well, how often in that studying of the body language
and starting to understand human psychology, I love we also
on the podcast are always talking about why we do
what we do, you know, what's driving us and all
of that stuff. So how often are our emotions just
vastly different from what our face and body are communicating.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
A lot of the time. And I believe and from
all my research and studying I've done, that emotions drive
most of our behavior. You know, even when you go
to the supermarket to buy something as innocuous as tea,
there could be some massive emotions that are driving that behavior.
Not not for everybody obviously, but We all do things
(04:49):
because we either like them or don't like them, or
don't do things because we don't like them. So these emotions,
I don't think we pay enough attention to how our
internal emotions are driving our external behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Say that again, how much our internal emotions are driving
our external behavior. So we're just not even paying attention.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
To that most of the time. And you know, I
deal a lot with teams, some functional, some very dysfunctional,
and often underneath the function and the dysfunction are emotions.
When people are emotionally well, they function well and make
more of an effort to function well with other people.
(05:29):
When emotions are taking over and they're not so useful
and dysfunctional teams are happening, there's often emotions that are
driving that dysfunction. So finding out what the emotions are
that are driving the behavior is the key really to
helping them to optimize what's really going on for themselves.
(05:49):
So understanding body language, understanding facial expressions, but also how
they really feel inside, because that's what drives our behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Isn't there a link between emotional and intelligent and understanding
kind of what you're talking about with the body language,
the facial expressions.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Can you talk about that connection?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah? So I was an emotional intelligence the first one
Global Emotional Intelligence a conference about three or four weeks ago.
And when we are emotionally well, you know, we handle
problems much better when we are emotionally not well. And
oftentimes people don't even realize they're emotionally not well, so
they don't even realize that actually they're doing things and
(06:29):
acting in certain ways that it's not useful to them. Now,
I believe all emotions are neither good neither bad, but
they are all a message for us. You know, if
you're feeling angry, that generally means in some way, you're
feeling threatened or something is in your way. If you're
feeling sad, that's always about loss, and it could be
(06:50):
a person, a pen, or a pet. You know, there's
loss somewhere, or even loss of identity or loss of role,
whatever it could be. So understanding the emotion that are
driving our behavior and driving other people's behaviors helps us
have empathy and helps us look at the situation sometimes differently.
So a team I was working with a couple of
months ago, there was a high level of uncertainty in
(07:13):
the team due to the leadership of the team. So
their behaviors were very much like trying to control, trying
to control each other, trying to control lots of different
aspects of the team, and actually all it was causing
was massive dysfunction. But actually, when you understand that uncertainty
is at the root of this, how do we give
control back then? How do we reassure how do we
(07:36):
have leadership that actually helps people feel more certain because
once they get that, they can emotionally function well and
can emotionally function well with each other. So I've made
it sound very simple, and it's not always that simple.
But understanding emotions is that is the first part of
any team analysis or personal analysis that I do, because
(07:59):
once we know what the emotion is, then we can
also understand is it being useful? Is it not being useful?
And you know, fear is a useful emotion. It keeps
us safe from danger. However, in some situations fear isn't
so useful. You know, fear is driving your behavior at
work or in your relationship, then you're going to try
and control the other person or people that's not useful.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
You know, it's just dawning on me as I was
listening to you give that description as you kept saying
personal awareness or and I think I just assumed when
I was prepping for this podcast, Oh, this will help
us to understand other people. But how much of this
can we use on ourselves because a lot of times
are we feeling something inside saying something different, but then
(08:44):
our movements, our actions, our facial expressions are communicating something
completely separate from that.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Absolutely, you know, we often edit our words editor we're saying,
edit how we're really feeling, and sometimes we don't even
know how we're feeling. So everyone thinks body language is
all about how do I read other people? But where
it's really useful is how do I read myself? How
do I understand myself better? You know, sometimes when I'm
(09:11):
having a bit of an off day and I feel
a bit rubbish, I'll go to the mirror and have
a look because I think I don't really know what's
wrong with me today, but I know I don't feel
great going out, a look in the mirror and I
do this, you know, and look like, oh, okay, I
can see some sadness or I can see some fear
on my facial expression. Okay, So because I know what
that looks like and what that means. I can adjust,
I can adapt or you know, do something different rather
(09:35):
than okay, you know, today might be feeling sad. It's
an anniversary of I loved one's death or something. Okay,
so today I'm just going to be kind to myself
and I'm allowed to feel sad. I'm allowed to have
that emotion. Whereas if you're trying to fight it all
the time because I'm not really sure what it is
or why you're feeling so rubbish, then that's not being
very kind to yourself, and it's not being aware of
(09:56):
what's going on for you. And sometimes it's okay to
be sad, it's okay to you know, just allow the
feelings to be there because they're given us a message,
and that message is often really important.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, it's really an interesting thought to think about. If
we're not tapped into our own emotions but also our
own body language and what our bodies are communicating, how
disconnected we actually may be from what's going on in reality.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, that is absolutely okay.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, I mentioned that I have to talk to you
about how to use this in dating and relationships because
I know my listeners that that is going to be
the first thing they're thinking about. I heard you in
another interview say that poker players are typically the best
at controlling their body movements or body language, which makes
total sense. Obviously they're trying not to give away their hand.
But immediately when you said that, I thought, what about
(10:47):
sociopaths or psychopaths, or serial killers, or what about a
lot of my ex boyfriends. That's kind of the train
of thought I had. So can you talk to that
a little bit about who is control roll in their
body language in a way because they do have the awareness,
or maybe they're lying or they're up to something, And
then we'll get into maybe a little bit how to
(11:08):
read that.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So there are a number of types, and you've mentioned
a few different types of people that will hide their
body language or not even so much hide like a
psychopath or a sociopath. They don't actually feel the feelings,
so they're not hiding. There's nothing going on.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
I don't have it.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, they don't have it. But then there are a
group of people who do hide how they feel. Now
that the reason they hide how they feel could be
for lots of different reasons. I often find when I
come across an adult who is quite shut down emotionally,
don't reveal much. I try to understand where that's coming from.
And often it's coming from a time when they've not
felt safe to show how they really feel. So it
(11:46):
could be as a child, it could be as an adult.
You know, it's not all about childhood, but oftentimes it's
been from a time where they've not felt safe to
show their emotions, so they shut down, and that becomes
learned behavior. Then people in the military, people in security industry,
they're often quite shut down. You often don't get much
emotional response. It's not true of all of them. This
is I'm just generalizing a little bit verre but it's
(12:08):
because they've had to keep their emotions in check to
do the things they've they've done. You know, from a
security perspective, they've shut down their emotions, and then they're
expected to go home and be all fuzzy and warm
and emotional. It's not that easy to do. You know,
people can't do it within the security industry. I do
security aspect, but also from a personal aspect. You know,
(12:29):
some of these men they go home and their wives
expect them to be emotionally aware. Well, that's really difficult
because all day at work they've been emotionally shut down
to do the things they need to do for security.
And other times, children that have been abused either mentally,
physically sexually, they often shut down how they feel too,
because it's not safe for them to show how they feel,
(12:50):
and that can carry on into adulthood and affects all
relations you know, relationships. So there's lots of different reasons
why people may be shut down, not all sinister. Maybe
they're just not even aware that actually it's a good
thing to show emotions.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, that's sort of The psychology background that you have
is so fascinating with all of this to be able
to look into Wait, okay, they're not showing emotions of
what's actually happening. So how do we decipher between a
person that is like not feeling it at all and
then a person who's maybe repressed. How do we decipher
(13:29):
between a person that is like not feeling it at
all and then a person who's maybe repressed or has
been taught to not express emotion or even like in codependency.
I was thinking about my job a little bit, and
when you work for celebrities as I do. Sometimes, like
you can't really have emotions yourself. You know, their world
(13:49):
is the world you're showing up for, and so you
kind of have to not be a human. So like,
how do we differentiate between the different types of people
or why there might not be either feeling emersions or
just showing them.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, So for me, it's all about questions and all
of body language and understand other people. It's all about questions.
How I use the body language and facial expression stuff
is to ask really good questions. As people say, did
you just read my mind? Like, absolutely not. I cannot
read anybody's mind. However, your body language and your facial
expressions will give me a really good clue as to
what might be going on for you, and I use
(14:24):
that clue with questions to try and understand your point
of view. If I assume anything, you know, if I
always assume that arms crossed is defensive, I'm going to
be wrong probably seventy five p cent at the time,
because a lot of people just sit with their arms
crossed just because it's really comfortable. I do it myself.
So it's about asking really good questions. If I was
(14:45):
in an interaction and suddenly somebody went and their face changed,
and you know you hear that. Okay, I'm going to
ask you a question like, oh, what happened? Just then
you feel like I feel like you shut down. But however,
if someone started an interaction and they just cross their
arms and nothing else changes, I'm just going to assume
it's really comfortable for them, or I may even ask
them a question, just say everything okay with you? So
(15:08):
questions I think are people's best friend when it comes
to this kind of work.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's so interesting because even if you ask someone, that
goes back to emotional intelligence because if they don't know,
and they don't even realize they're doing something, because I
think that's probably very subconscious for us, right.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, A lot of the times it is. And I
wouldn't ask questions for everything. I would only ask a
question when the interaction I need to really clarify, okay,
I need to really understand what's going on for the person.
I wouldn't you know. I was delivering workshops last week
in Switzerland, and every time someone does a movement, I'm
not going to ask them a question, right, I'm just
(15:43):
gonna carry on. If I see some a cluster of
movements or a cluster of faceal expressions. Okay, then maybe
I might just say, tell me a little bit more
about what's going on for you, and I'd clarify and
try and you know, get on board with them, or
did that make sense to you? Because I've seen confusion
on their face? Did that makes sense? So I'm using
(16:03):
this information all the time, but not in a way
that becomes annoying that I clarify every single thing, because
you don't always need to know what's going on. Sometimes
you can just let it go, and sometimes you just
ignore what you've seen because it's not appropriate. So I'll
give you an example of that. Me and my husband.
We're out for dinner with some friends of ours a
few years ago, and the wife turned to the husband
and said, we're really happy, aren't we. We're happily married,
(16:25):
aren't we. And the husband did this.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
We kind of did like a half smirk.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Kind smile, and we call that. It is called a
half smile, but it's to do with the facial expression
and the emotion of contempt, which means I feel superior.
You might think that, but I don't think that. And
my husband looked at me, and I was like, none
of our business. You know, in that context, we've seen
something that we know it means something a little bit more.
(16:54):
His wife didn't pick up on it. None of our business.
We don't ever ever talk about that to them. I
talked about to each other in the car and haven't
be like, oh, did you see that?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But we certainly wouldn't say it in that because it's
not appropriate. You know that it's not our business, and
I certainly don't want to go into marital relationship therapy.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I was actually wondering if there is some sort of
ethical guideline that you try to live by with this,
because you could almost it's the same way that when
I speak to psychics, I'm always like, how do you
not tap in on everyone all the time? And it's
almost invasive or invasion of privacy in a.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Way absolutely can be yes. So for me, it's all
about kindness. Okay, if I see something, you know, can
I deal with this in a kind way? Can I
approach it in a kind way and highlight it? Or
if I can't do that, then I'm not going to
say anything because for me, kindness is absolutely king. I
just think this is the knowledge that I have and
(17:53):
that I trained people to have has to be used
with kindness.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, that seems like a good guideline. Okay, to get
back to dating. There have been obviously relationships I mentioned
that I've been in the past where people have looked
me in the eye and lied, and obviously, looking back,
I knew, like, yes, I'm a very intuitive person, and
if I allow myself to tap in, I think that
I instinctually am reading body language and things like that
(18:19):
all the time. But you know, I wouldn't take it,
or I would take it at face value. And I'm
curious if my listeners are hearing this and they're thinking, oh,
you know, I don't know about this guy, or they're
in dating relationships or in relationships like friendships are at work.
Is there like one red flag movement or indicator of
(18:40):
lying that we can be looking for.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
There are lots, but they all mean different things to
different people. So I always say to someone, firstly, trust
your intuition. Yeah, if you're feeling a little bit like
I'm really not sure, trust that. Absolutely trust that. And
I think we're taught not to trust that any more,
but we should. We should absolutely trust that, And A
second one is when someone's behavior changes. Notice it. So
(19:05):
if for example, someone's a fidgeter, means nothing. It's what
they always do, it's their normal behavior. If they stop fidgeting,
that's when I become interested. Oh, because they've changed their behavior.
So now what's going on? If someone talks a lot
and then they suddenly stop talking a lot, Okay, now
what's going on? Yeah, because that's not their normal behavior.
(19:25):
So that that's a fail safe rule that works with
everybody and anybody. That sign of lie in that sign
of deception, it's when their behavior changes from their norm
So you have to know somebody quite well to know
when their behavior changes. You know, I've just met you
for the first time today. I would have no idea
what your signs of deception are because I don't know
you well enough. Right, Okay, However, there would be things
(19:47):
I would be looking for. So if you were saying
things to me, I would be looking for a nose wrinkling.
So this you know. I know your listeners can't say that,
but the rinkling of the nose where you kind of
scrunch up your nose. Yeah, people often do that when
they say something they don't believe.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I'm trying to spink when I ever do that.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
So, for example, my friends say, do you want to
come out with us this weekend? And I've had a
really busy week and I really don't want to go,
but I don't want to say no because I'm going
to put it in the WhatsApp group later on, which
is a lot less threatening. I'm like, go, yeahah yah,
I'll be there. And those rings.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
So when you said yeah, yeah, yeah, she squandered her
nose up.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Okay, yeah, that'll do.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
The other thing that people do when they when they
say something but they've got no confidence, or it could
be a little bit of a porky pie lie, is
the shoulder will go up just one sided. A double
sided shoulder shrug means. I don't know that's generally true
for most people in the Western world. But when the
one sided shoulder shrug goes for me, it's always my
(20:44):
left and I do this too. I can't stop my
body from giving this one away, right, But when my shoulder,
my left shoulder goes and it's just that one. Whatever
I've just said, I'm probably not going to do, okay,
So that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Fascinating. That is a really good one. I want to
touch back to the first point that you made, are
our bodies communicating. I'm a big energy person, and I'm
just curious when you said listen to your intuition. Immediately
I thought, is there a way that my body and
that person's body we're communicating without us and like we're
saying different words obviously, but like we're our bodies having
(21:18):
a whole nother dialogue.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I think so too. I'm a great believer in energy.
You know, when some walks into the room, you feel
their presence or not, as the case may be. I
we definitely react energetically to other people. And I think,
you know, part of the energetic stuff that I've certainly
learned about. We are all connected in some way, or
that you and I are connected. Now we've had this conversation, Yeah,
(21:41):
we are not connected. So you know, our energy is
I like you, you like me. That's an energy thing
as well as a visual thing, as well as a
body language thing, as well an appearance thing. I think
energy is working on a whole other level, and I
completely believe that that our interactions are shaped by that energy.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Let's talk about eye contact because I mentioned people looking
you directly in the eyes and lying, So I think
like eye contact has always talked about as the big
indicator of lying, and I think to myself that can't
be true though, because most of the people that have
lied to me have looked me in the face and
done it. So can you talk to about that a
little bit, like, how do we understand what eye contact is?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Is it important?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I know there's a big piece of eye contact that
can be for deep connection as well.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
So can you absolute eye contact?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yes? So normal eye contact in everyday life should be
between sixty to seventy percent of the interaction. That's normal
for most people. Now, neurodiverse people, often not all of them,
often have less eye contact. Some people who are lying
rather than you know, we've always been taught or when
they look away they're lying, right. Oftentimes the truth is
(22:55):
it's the opposite. A liar will try to hold your
gaze longer for a couple of reasons. Firstly, to make
sure that you're going along with what they're trying to
make you believe, and secondly, because everyone knows this myth
that liars look away, So I'm going to hold your
gaze really recently so that you believe me. Actually, the
opposite is actually true, that people will hold the gaze
(23:16):
longer than is normal because they are lying interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Okay, well, then I've done a bunch of energy type
workshops or like tntra with you, like a tantra workshop.
It's such a big part of the deep connection with
your partner to do left eye to left eye. So
why is that what's happening with our bodies when we're
engaging in that kind of eye contact?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And I heard have you heard of the studies where
you can almost get anyone to fall in love with you?
I think it's two minutes or three minutes. Have you
heard about that?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
But I heard seven minutes is like a deep soul connection.
Once you look left eye to left eye for seven minutes,
it's like it unlocks some sort of soul communication or
soul connection. That's the only piece that I've heard.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
But okay, I've not heard about that bit. However, it
would make a lot of sense to me. So there
was a study done by a psychologist a few years
ago now where he got two strangers to sit and
he did pairs of people didn't know each other, and
a high percentage of these couples fell in love and
they had to ask questions, and while they were asking
(24:19):
and answering the questions, to keep looking into each other's eyes.
And it was something about three minutes. I need to
check the stats on that, but yeah, once you stare
or not stare, but that really make that deep eye contact,
you'd begin to develop feelings or at the very least
a bond. Now, with some of my private clients, one
of the questions I always ask them is how much
(24:40):
do you like yourself? And which normally gets a bit
of a shock, like no one was ever asking that before.
Now'm not talking about the affirmations where you know, you
look at the mirror say I love myself, I love myself.
I'm talking about how much do you really like yourself?
And oftentimes people are saying, well, not a lot. So
I respond to that with, well, if you don't like yourself,
your brain is subcoudtually saying is why would anybody else
(25:02):
like me either? So I get them to start looking
in the mirror, maybe for five seconds a day, and
just really look into their own eyes to create that connection.
And while they're looking, they can't have any judgment about themselves.
They can say nice things, yeah, I cannot say anything
horrible about themselves. They can say, oh, my eyes got
really good today. And this is not while you're cleaning
(25:23):
your teeth, and it's not while you're brushing your hair
or whatever other beauty routines you might have. This is
just going to the mirror and looking into your own
eyes and just start with a few seconds and then
build it up until it becomes really comfortable, until you
can do a minute, two minutes, and just just look
at yourself without judgment. Because our self esteem, our liking
(25:43):
of ourselves affect every relationship we have.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
That really just teared me up. And because I think
unless you've done that mirror work, I mean, it's so difficult.
Which is really interesting how hard it can be to
look at your own eyes. Again, I didn't think about
when I was first bringing up I contact. I was
just using it in relation to other people. But the
idea of how you talk to yourself and your relationship
(26:06):
with yourself, how much you like yourself, all the messaging
you're sending to your own body, that is crazy to
think about. So if someone wanted to just start that today,
if they're listening. How I mean, do you just say
just do it as long as you can, or yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Mean, don't make it so that it becomes I never
want to do that again. So that's why I say
five seconds some people, but it's ten seconds. It depends
how much you like or dislike yourself, So people find
it really hard, really hard. You just look at themselves
in the mirror. So just start really small and build
it up. If it's five seconds a day, make it
six seconds tomorrow and maybe seven seconds the next day,
(26:43):
until you get to ten and then do ten seconds
for a few days. And just what you're training your
mind and body is to do become comfortable with yourself.
And that's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
You said it in relation to like how much you
like yourself. The other thing I had experience with was
going through like a super traumatic time and doing that
kind of mirror work. I wasn't allowing myself to acknowledge
the feelings of sadness, of grief of what I'd been through,
And when I would look at myself, I would just
start sobbing immediately when I saw my eyes. It was
(27:24):
almost like looking at a person who had been through war,
you know, like a soldier coming out of war. But
I hadn't been able to acknowledge it until I looked
into my own eyes. And I didn't really make that
connection until you just said this and the other thing.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
You know, I don't know if you saw my ted talk,
but I talk about as humans we need to feel
seen and heard. That also means by ourselves.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Yes, it's most importantly there, I think.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So, I think it all starts with us. You know,
I should probably gathering from our conversation, it starts with me.
Every interaction I go into it starts with me. Yes,
I also to have empathy with the other person. I
want to interact and create great relationships, but it starts
with me. If I've got a great relationship with myself,
I go into that interaction and in a much better place.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Well, I mentioned I work with celebrities in I do
hear makeup and styling. So it's all beauty business. And
I'm curious because in twenty twenty five, it feels like
everyone's either having plastic surgery or botox or filler. How
much is that impacting what we can read with body
language and facial expressions.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Massively masslee, Yes, So I have a client in production.
She's in production of adverts and content, and she's had
quite a lot of work done to her face. And
she said, did you notice? I said I did not.
She well, you never said anything. I said, well, not
my business. You know, yeah, I noticed, but I'm not
going to say anything. It's that kindness again, you know,
(28:49):
it's not my job to highlight it. However, I said,
do people find you hard to read now? She said, oh, yeah,
really hard. But I like that. And I said, the
only thing I would be aware of if I was
you is that when we can't read somebody, we become
very uncertain around them, and we're more likely to avoid them.
When we can read people, we engage, we pick up
(29:10):
those empathy cues, we connect on an energetic level. When
we can't do that because we can't read their face,
because they can't move their face in any way, we
become uncomfortable as humans. So I would just be aware
of that from that perspective. And that is so true.
You know, I've got appliance that I've been working with
for a while, and I always thought she was really
(29:30):
cold and really hard. She's absolutely lovely underneath, but nobody
knows that because she has no movement in her face.
When you really get to know her, you see a
little bit more movement. But she's created this perfect face,
absolutely beautiful, but it's hard to connect to and people
feel like she's difficult. She's really shocked when someone says
(29:50):
that she's difficult, because I'm not because inside she's got
everything else opposite to being difficult going on, but she's
not showing it in any way.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
We will actually avoid people that we can't read. Yes,
that's subconscious, right, like we don't We just can't want
to be around.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, completely subconscious emotions. Stuff happens often below conscious level.
So I do, and I've done lots of examples of
this where I'll show the picture of someone smiling, lovely,
genuine smile of this picture, same picture, but it's a
pose smile or just you know, a gentle smile. There's
no real activation going on. Right. People will react seventy
(30:32):
five percent more with this than this because this we understand,
it's emotional, it's authentic, it's genuine. As humans, we're drawn
to it.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
This.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We're not that sure a backs, we don't really know
what it means.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That is fascinating because there's sometimes where I just don't
like people and I don't know why, but I bet
it's part of that.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, absolutely, And your subconscious is working all the time.
So you may your subconscious may have seen something in
that person that somebody else who did you wrong or
you didn't like from years ago, and they've picked up
similar cues and clues, so you're subcontrus go hmm, I
don't like you. But it's all happening below conscious level.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So I know a lot of your work is working
with these big brands that we mentioned some of them
at the beginning. So how is that tying into what
you bring to these corporations as far as how they
should advertise in branding and things like that.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
So all of the content, so whether it's any sort
of media where it involves a person, the opportunities to
get it right and to get it wrong are massive.
You know, some of the key visuals that I advise on.
So what happens is that a brand, say like Dove
or you know hair care brands. Personal brands mostly send
me some content images that they're going to use for
their advertising in their marketing, and I'll write reports on
(31:51):
the image and say this is how your consumers or
your shoppers will feel from the talents facial expression and
body language. This is the message there sending as a
human and it's either going to repel or it's going
to bring people forward. And what we want to do
is we want to engage. It's not always happiness. Happiness
isn't always the right emotion. Sometimes it is fear. We
(32:13):
want to in sell a little bit of fear. So
I always say to the brands, start with how you
want your shoppers and consumers to feel when they look
at your key visual or when they look at your media.
How do you want them to feel? And that's your
starting point, and then you build from there with the talent.
And you know, from casting the personality types. That's another
thing that I do that don't really shout about, but
(32:33):
you know how we can personality type people from their
face actually and perception science how we read other people.
So using that science gives brands a much better opportunity.
And I worked out a few years ago now, so
this has probably grown this figure that in the UK alone,
the hair care market just for shampoos, conditioners, those sorts
(32:56):
of products. I'm not talking about hair dye or anything
else is worth something like thirty nine pounds for women
aged eighteen to thirty four. Well, if you just get
a one percent increase, that's a lot of revenue generator. Yeah,
And I know from all the research I've done that
if you use the right facial expression, the right body language,
(33:17):
they'll get at least ten percent more engagement, more sales.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
The fact that all of that has to be thought
about in making a sale is crazy, actually, because I
thought of casting like that has to matter first of all,
from what we just talked about, like does someone even
have movement in their face? And then also like how
genuine are they going to come across? Because I think
there's two types of actors, and some of them are
(33:41):
believable and then some of them you feel like they're
acting yep.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
And so much content out there is created around the acting,
whereas what we want is authenticity as humans. That's what
we respond to, you know, the fake pictures of right,
nobody believes that's authentic. So that's missing a big chunk
of an opportunity that if you just capture that person
in the authentic moment, is going to do a much
(34:06):
better job for you. You know, I had a jewelry
brand that a friend of mine actually was their jewelry brand,
and I said, all of the talents showing the jewelry
looked really miserable. Why don't you just do a trial
and take the faces off. So just show the jewelry
on an arm, on a necklace, but take off the
facial expression. Sales went up with something like seventy six
(34:28):
percent good grief level, and they were like, thank you
very much. That has like transformed their business because they
say all you know, lots of brands will say, oh,
we don't want people to look at the face. We're
not interesting that. Well, we're interested in the clothes or
whatever it is. But as humans, the first thing we
do when we come into contact with another person is
look at their face. All of the eye tracking studies
(34:49):
prove that it's the first thing we do. So if
you get the facial expression wrong straight away, you're either
repelling or engaging. So it just makes sense to pay
attention to that. Take it off. Take the face off.
If it's not doing a good job.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Right, Okay, take it off.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So that's interesting to think about within social media and
this kind of influencer culture because I feel like it
used to be, especially Instagram, it used to be very staged,
and we all kind of did this formula of look
how pretty this is. But what seems to be selling
more now, and I've heard this across the board is
authenticity totally. That so people don't care as much about
(35:27):
pretty perfect all of that. They want to be able
to feel like it's real.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Absolutely. And the reason is, you know, as we become
more a and I evolved, deep fake photographs, deep fake videos,
we want to trust what we're seeing is real. The
authenticity piece and trust are now more important than ever before.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
So you know, we have a lot of big because.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
We have a lot of fake stuff. And that's not
just plastic surgery or fillers or botox, it's actually the
deep fakes too. People want to connect in a more
human way than ever before. I'm busy than I've ever
been in this day and age because people want to trust.
How do I show more trust? How do I make
people trust me more? How do you know? How do
(36:14):
I build my personal brand so that you know, I
sell me? That's become so important.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
But why is it?
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Isn't it fascinating that people have to ask you how
to be themselves?
Speaker 3 (36:26):
That's like in the bigger picture of.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
This whole conversation, I was thinking, Wow, how sad that
we are so programmed to perform that we don't even
know how to be authentic anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, very sad, really sad. But it happens more than
you perhaps realize. It's so important that trust is going
to be the new currency.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Actually, yeah, I think you're totally right, especially with AI
coming so hard. Just to wrap things up, I have
a couple of rapid fire questions. Is there a moment
that you've read someone wrong that there was a big
impact for that, I mean.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Not recently.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Okay, there is someone so European.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I'm not going to say too much because I don't
want to give any identifying details away, but I read
it was a man. Actually I read him really as
a pompous twit, and actually, on my first impression, his
body language, everything about him was designed to make people
think he was very pompous and arrogant. Actually, underneath it,
(37:30):
he's a really nice man and I am actually working
with him now. If you'd have said to me, of
all the people you'll be working with as a private client,
he would be the last one that I would have
ever said would want to become a private client of mine.
And he approached me and said, I'd really like you
to coach me and help me show who I really am,
because he just had no idea. I mean, he came.
(37:50):
He did the pomposity as a means of he actually
felt inside quite low self esteem. So the pomposity, it's
all about putting this front on this, you know, the
big I am, when actually he's really not the big Iaman.
He's actually a really lovely person to leave. So I'm
working with him, And I was really wrong about him
because I just thought he would never be interested in, yeah,
(38:13):
actually becoming who he really is and showing that authenticity
and that trust. And he's a client, So yeah, I
got that one wrong.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Actually, that's interesting that we can almost project like ours,
call that persona, but we can project big puffed up
negative energy too, even when that's not what's actually happening
on the inside.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, absolutely interesting.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
What's a cue that you may still struggle to interpret
in real time?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Is there one?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
If there's more than one person interaction, I can't capture everybody,
much as I would like to be, like, yeah, but
I can't. So you know, I miss stuff, and also,
you know awareness, I don't always switch this on. I'm
not constantly on the lookout to read people, and sometimes
I miss stuff and somebody else will say to me, oh,
did you say that they did it. No, I've never
even saw it completely unaware. Yeah, because I'm not switched
(39:04):
on all the time looking for signs and signals, it
would be exhausted.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Is there something you're practicing in your body right now?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah. I hold my shoulders up quite high. I often
find myself just relaxing, and that's anxiety. Actually, it's often
a sign of anxiety holding So I often think, like,
just remind myself to drop my shoulders, because I do that.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
One of the emotions that drives my behavior is low
level anxiety. Not that I'm a masket case of nerves.
It's just this, you know, learned behavior as a child
that I want to do a good job. I really
care about doing a good job, and that transforms itself
into a bit of anxiety. So oftentimes my shoulders are
up here when actually they should be down here. So
that's something I'm working on all of them.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I think that's a very common one, right, like or
just being tense, like I'll sometimes notice I'm not even
taking deep breaths, yes, if I'm stressed like that, So
it's just that tension or you know, we're holding it
on in our body. That's a good one I think
for everyone to pay attention to. Well, we mentioned the
Ted talk, so I'm going to put a lea to
that in the bio is really it's actually great because
it's like twenty minutes max, and it teaches a lot.
(40:06):
You show the pictures of what you were describing with
the smiles, which I found to be very fascinating, So
I will put that in the description of this podcast
for you guys.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
You also have a book. Can you tell us a
little bit about the book.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
It's a few years old now. It's called The Face Whisperer,
and it's all about faces and emotions and you know
how you can pay attention to and the applications for that.
I do have another book coming, but it's not quite
well yet. It's called Beyond Words.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Beyond Words, that's a good yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah, And it touches on that energy stuff. It touches
on our emotions and how we hold our emotions and
faced expressions and body language. So there's there's everything about
where I'm at now, it's the updated version of the
Face Whisperer.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I love that connection between all of them. Well, we'll
be on the lookout for that. Where can people keep
up with you so we can see when this comes out?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
LinkedIn TikTok, Instagram okay, they are my three main alms
as well. Yeah, all the.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Places Okay, Well, I will put all of the links
for you guys in the description of this podcast. I
could talk to you all day because I find it
so fascinating. So thank you so much for this. I'm
so excited for you guys to hear about this and
just thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Thank you, Kelly
Host
Kelly Henderson
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.