August 27, 2025 • 51 mins
Licensed clinical psychologist and relationship coach Dr. Jaime Zuckerman (Dr. Z) unpacks today’s cultural obsession with narcissism and explains why the term has become one of the most overused buzzwords of modern psychology. She clarifies the difference between narcissistic traits and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), offering insight into the clinical reality behind the label.
The episode explores the insidious nature of narcissistic abuse—how confusion, gaslighting, and trauma bonding can leave victims doubting themselves long after the relationship ends. Dr. Z discusses who may be more susceptible to these dynamics, the connection between narcissism and addiction, and the psychological mechanisms that keep people stuck in toxic relationships.
Practical strategies for recovery and healing are also addressed, including reclaiming boundaries, rebuilding self-trust, and taking back personal power. This conversation provides clarity for anyone seeking to understand narcissism more deeply and insight for those navigating the lasting impact of narcissistic abuse.
Website: drjaimezuckerman.com
Podcast: Next Up Narcissism
Socials: @dr.z_psychologist
Check out Dr. Z's Books HERE!
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HOSTS:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Doctor Jamie Zuckerman, also known as doctor Z, is a
licensed clinical psychologist and relationship coach specializing in narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi, doctor Z, Hi, how are you? I'm good.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I was just saying to you, It's so weird because
I've been following you for years on Instagram, so I
feel like I know you like.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Lady got on and I was like, oh, hey, I interesting.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I wanted to ask you though, because obviously you have
a ton of credentials, but you've now narrowed it down
to focus specifically on narcissistic abuse. Was there some catalysts
that made you go in this direction?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Yeah? So great question. I always get asked this question.
So there were two main things. The first was when
I went into private practice many many moons ago, I
started seeing this pattern. I saw mostly women, but men too,
But I was seeing a lot of women coming in
with you know, they'd say they had anxiety or depression,
but as we started working on it, it really wasn't that,
(01:08):
and it was really that they were in these narcissistic
abusive either you know, intimate relationships or family relationships, even
friendship or coworkers, and nobody knew how do identify it.
Nobody knew what it was. It was so confusing to
even begin to talk about. And so I realized very
quickly that there really were very few resources clinically for
(01:31):
people that were in these relationships. And so it kind
of stemmed from that. And I, you know, and I
always say, for when I was in graduate school, we
didn't really dive that much into narcissistic personality disorder at all.
If anything, we talked about borderline personality sort are, But
really we kind of were given a really quick overview
of like this stereotypical, hollywoodized version of what narcissistic personality
(01:56):
disorder is, which is a part of it, but lean
out the whole picture. And so that happened, and so
I started getting into it for private practice because I
just found it was such a need. And then I
kind of had a front row seat to one of
my nearest and dearest friends going through it and kind
of witness it firsthand and realize, you know, there is
(02:17):
such a need for this, and people feel so lost
and so confused, and they don't know what end is up,
and there's so much healing that needs to come with that.
So that's kind of why I really started to narrow
that down.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
God, I mean, you just pinged so many different questions
for me, So I'm just gonna try to start with
one and then I'll try to cover all.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Oh yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
You mentioned in grad school, y'all not really covering this.
And the next thing I wanted to ask you about was, obviously,
narcissism has become our narcissist has become.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Such a buzzword everywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I feel like anytime I open my social media and
obviously like it's in my algorithm because I've clicked on
a bunch, but I feel like it's still everywhere. So
why when you were going through school was this barely
touched on. Why do you think that it's so much
more widely discussed.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I think it's a couple of things. I think first is,
when you're dealing with narcissistic personality soda, the quote percentage
of people that they say that are diagnosed with this
is very very i would say misrepresented, and so originally
it was thought to be this very tiny portion of
the population for a couple of reasons, once they don't
present for treatment. So really it's kind of this weird
(03:23):
secondhand diagnosis of somebody that you're not really even treating.
You're treating usually the significant others or the friends or
the family members. You're not treating the narcissists themselves, and
if you are, it's very short lived. So I think
that's a big part of it. I think that because
of that, and because there were so much misinformation about it,
(03:44):
that people were always experiencing it, they just never knew
what it was. They would sooner assume that they were
having communication issues or that yes, they were an abusive relationship,
but they couldn't really put their finger on it, and
they really blame themselves that they were at fault because
it's so much manipulative like that, so it's very hard
to identify. And then obviously with social media, I think
(04:07):
is when it really started to kind of take off
for better or worse. Because I hate when diagnoses trend
that yeah it's good and it's bad. But with social media,
I think people started sharing their stories, and I think
survivor stories are one of the most important aspects of treatment,
and so I think when people started seeing other people
going through this and saying, oh my, oh my god,
(04:27):
that's that's my life, you know, or if I even
posted something like wait, what, there's there's a name for this.
This is the thing. And then I think with COVID
in particular, that's when I mean, I'd always specialized in this,
but that's when I really saw an uptick in people
really kind of understanding what it was and realizing that
(04:47):
this is something that they either experienced or were experiencing.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's interesting. Do you think it's because during COVID we
were at home more and so they're spending more time
with these said narcissists.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
That there was nowhere to go, there was no to escape,
But also because our only outlet was social media, and
so everybody was kind of gravitating towards TikTok and Instagram
and way more than they normally would have, and people
were either posting more about it or people were reading
more about it, whatever, whatever the case may be. I
(05:18):
think that's when it really started to kind of go
in that direction for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, well, you mentioned the good and bad about it
being such a talked about thing on social media, and
I want to kind of dive into that because that
is the personal experience that I have had as someone
who has gone through relationships like this, to almost the
point of my own demise, like completely, like it will
take you out, and we'll get into that a little bit,
but I really relate to the good and bad of
(05:45):
it because good being it helped me feel less crazy
to hear some of these people who specialized it, like you.
I've told you, I've been following you for years, and
one of you know, one of the reasons was because
I didn't have that much knowledge about exactly what I
was going through. And it does make you feel so crazy.
So when someone is specifically describing your situation, it is
so validating and you're like, oh my god, thank god.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
You know, there's the relief.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
But then on the flip side, like you said, because
it's so widely discussed now, I feel like in some
ways it's like, oh, well everyone's a narcissist, and so
it kind.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Of loses its power.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So what are you seeing with maybe the bad or
the negative trends happening with it being so easily labeled
and discussed like this, So I.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Think, well, the downside is that exactly like you said,
you know, just because somebody's a jerk, just because somebody
broke up with you, just because somebody cheated on you.
Just because somebody wromed you does not mean they're a narcissist.
Just because somebody's selfish, Just because somebody is self absorbed
does not make them a narcissist. Somebody who is a narcissist.
(06:49):
It is a very distinct and pervasive personality style that
infistrates all aspects of their life. It's not just with
one person. It's not like they're going to be I mean,
will be different with other people, but that's part of
their pattern, but they won't truly inherently be different and
better with somebody else, you know. So I think that's
(07:10):
a big part of it. The other is, I think
sometimes because for some reason, and I've noticed this a lot,
because I get a lot of criticism about this, When
you have a mental health diagnosis, particularly narcisstic personality SODA,
and you have clinicians like myself stating the facts, stating
(07:31):
the symptoms, stating the behaviors that you'll see, you get
a lot of push back in the sense of, you know,
why are you bad mouthing You're a psychologist, why are
you bad mouthing people with a mental health set? And
here's the thing, I think that people are so quick
to say, you know, they're a narcissist or the reverse,
not everyone's a narcissist, and then it waters down what
(07:52):
it really is, and people don't want to come forward
because they don't want to get that label of just
because they were rude to you means they're a narciss
It's that the behavior sounds that bad because they are
that bad, right, it really is that bad. And so
I get a lot of pushback, Well, you know, these
are wounded people too, and I'm not saying they aren't.
(08:15):
But what I am saying is that there's plenty of
wounded people who don't deliberately harm other people. And you know,
I'm not going to say to my patients who are
you know, I always say this because this is true
some of my female patients who are married. I'm not
going to say to my female patients that the reason
why their spouse forces them to have sex with them
and do things they don't want to do is because
(08:36):
they're wounded people. So I think what ended up happening
was it watered down what narcissistic personality sort what narcissistic
abuse really is, and so people are hesitant to come forward.
Sometimes people with very large platforms who may have experienced
this themselves, and not to downplay their experiences they think
are very important. I think then try to educate on
(08:59):
the diagnosis without having the clinical understanding and the behavioral
understanding of the nuances of it, and I think that
gets people into trouble.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I totally totally agree with that. Well, let's maybe dive
into what narcissism really is. We had doctor Keith Campbell
on the podcast. This was years ago, and it was
actually in the trenches of me going through my own
relationships like this and kind of starting to uncover what
narcissism was. And I was digging deep, but I was
(09:28):
still so scared to speak about this topic. And I
think that would make sense to you if you know
anything about narcissism, But it's almost crippling what it does
to your brain to be on the other side of it,
and so I was trying to dip my toe in
and he was a very perfect interview for me for
that because he wrote a book about the sliding scale
(09:48):
of narcissistic traits. So there's narcissistic personality disorder as you're
talking about it. But then obviously, like we all have
a little bit of, you know, a narcissistic trait here
and there, So can you speak to that and how
help my listeners understand the difference between having one narcissistic trait,
having narcissistic personality disorder, or even having a high narcissistic
(10:09):
streak is I guess what my therapist started calling it.
Can you speak to that a little bit and help
the listeners understand?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah? Sure, so, yes, all of us have traits where
whether we want to call them narcissistic traits or whatever
the case may be. But the difference is is that
when you're talking about those types of traits, they're fluid,
meaning you know when you or I are doing something,
let's say that we really excel at right. So you
on your podcast, right, it's your confidence and you're you
(10:40):
feeling empowered. That's going to show through more because it's
your podcast. You know what you're doing, it's you know
what I'm saying, it's it's yours. You own it, So
that's going to come out more. But if you were
to go rock climbing, and let's say you've never gone
rock climbing in your life, you're not going to carry
that same kind of persona about you into a different
situation where you don't know anything about it. You're going
(11:02):
to take in information, You're going to be able to
take a step back, put yourself in check, right, and
so that in that sense, it's fluid, right. Sometimes when
you're doing things where you're very confident. We see this
with athletes a lot. Right, when they're doing what they're
good at their narciss situations, maybe they're higher or their
confidence level is extremely high. But when they're at home
with their family or they're doing something else, it's not there.
(11:24):
Not saying they're not confident, but you see that variation, right.
They know when to be one way, they switch it
to another to adapt to the situation. Okay, Then you
have people that on the surface, their behaviors may look
extremely similar to narcissistic personality disorder, their patterns, what they say,
(11:44):
how they act. However, it could be that they are
repeating the only things that they've known. Right. Maybe they
grow up in an environment and they're repeating the patterns or
their strategy is the total opposite of what they grow
up and to kind of compensate for that. But when
brought to their attention and their awareness that their behaviors
or their patterns are hurting other people, and maybe they
(12:08):
just don't have that awareness and you bring it to
their attention. The function of their behavior isn't to harm others.
So when you bring it to their attention, they may
be scared as hell to change and it may be
very difficult, but the purpose or the why behind their
behavior is not power and control. With a narcissist, their
behaviors across the board will always be about power and control.
(12:32):
It doesn't matter how you dress it up. It could
be taking you to dinner, it could be starting an
argument with you on your birthday. It could be anything.
It could be getting you a gift, it could be
calling you for help. Whatever it is, there's always an
underlying function of power and control. Always, and so I
always tell people that those types of behaviors with a narcissist,
(12:53):
it's going to happen all the time. It's not fluid.
It is constant, characteristic. It's never going to change that.
It's who they are. Doesn't matter what you do differently,
how you respond, that's just that's who they are. That's
not shifting.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
The power and control piece is interesting because I used
to describe it as I just feel like it's always
about winning. Yes, that's what it is, right, Like, it
just felt like, no matter what was happening, or what
was said, or what was done, or what could be
easier if the outcome was more mutual, it felt like
the win was the most important thing at all times.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
And it's not even the win. I would take it
one step further, and I would say, because they wouldn't
care if they lost or they won, as long as
whatever it was gave them access to manipulate your thoughts,
your emotions, and your behaviors. So it's that winning. I
think what you're describing is more of as long as
they can gain access to your internal world, right whether
(13:54):
they're physically present or not, but as long as what
they're doing is giving them control and power over you
and therefore taking control and power away from you.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So, is there a situation where someone can be very high,
like if we're using that scale as the indicator here,
they can be very high in narcissistic traits and not
have full blown narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So is there a situation.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Where someone can be very high like if we're using
that scale as the indicator here. They can be very
high in narcissistic traits and not have full blown narcissistic
personality disorder.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, there can be. I think what you'll find is
that they're probably very difficult to deal with. I think
the defining variable is that is that function again, is
that they don't necessarily want to harm people, but the
thought of giving up control is very scary to them.
So I think you'll find that more and more where
(14:58):
you get to narcissistic personality just or it's you're in
the way of getting what they need, and they'll do
whatever they need to do to get power and control
in those situations, or they'll do whatever they need to
do to manipulate the situation, and there's no remorse or
empathy about that, and they're they're aware of it, they're
aware that they're doing that. They don't they don't care.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, they don't care as exactly what was coming to
my mind, Which is such an interesting thing because if
you're a human with any sort of compassion or empathy,
it doesn't even cross your mind to not care. You know,
I've been in so many situations, and I know in
my situation specifically, I could not wrap my mind around
what was happening, because my brain genuinely does not think
(15:40):
that way. Like I could not process laying my head
down to go to sleep at night doing the kind
of things that were happening. So I just kept trying
to almost rationalize that, Oh, it can't be that. It
looks like this, it smells like this, it walks like this,
it talks like this, But like, it can't be that,
because how could a person do that? Like that is
(16:01):
literally what would go through my mind all the time.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
That's I think one of the defining moments I have
with a lot of my patients is that moment of
clarity where you realize there are no other alternative responses
except the one you really don't want.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
It to be, because if.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
You accept that that's really what it is, your entire
you know, view of people of humanity almost you know,
your entire view of the world is kind of pulled
out from under you, and you have to reformulate how
you view things now. And it makes people. It really
it really throws people. It really throws people.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh and it takes forever for it to fully sink in.
I think krit did for me, at least to really
fully accept it and name it and say what it
was and know that it was not going to change.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It takes forever, It took a lot, and that it
has nothing to do with you, and that it has
nothing to do and that's hard.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's hard to understand too, because to think that somebody
would do this just because they can or just because
it made them feel better, is even though they saw
the pain that you were in and there was no
empathy there. It's a very difficult pill to.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Swallow, very difficult.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, you mentioned that you know, narcissist or people with
high narcissistic traits are also wounded, and I want to
talk a little bit about the origin of narcissism and
why someone would even develop these kind of traits. Are
you just born this way? Is it a nature nature
versus nurture thing? How does this happen and why does
it stay?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, so there's a lot of theories out there, but
primarily what people will tell you and what the research
will tell you is that you know, it really comes
from your developmental upbringing. What starts originally, let's say, as
you know, as children were very smart when we're children,
and so we come up with very creative ways to
make sense and navigate our world, and when our world
(17:56):
is chaotic and uncertain, right, So we see this a
lot with the violence. We see this with you know,
when one caregiver has a drug or alcohol problem or
is neglectful. So you know, any type of chaotic upbringing,
the child has to navigate that. And so what may
have worked for them in childhood, right, Let's say, putting
(18:17):
up a wall and never letting people get to them
ever again, They're never going to let anybody make them
feel like crap ever again. That helps them right through childhood,
let's say. But then once you're out of that dynamic
and you're out of that context and there's no need
for that severe of a behavioral response anymore. But yet
you're still acting in that way, understandably, So throughout your
(18:40):
adulthood it's not working anymore. Right, you start to hit walls,
and your unwillingness or inability to identify that that needs
to shift oftentimes lead you into unhealthy relationships down the
route of personality disorders because they're so solidified and they're
so ingrained in terms so your brain and how you
(19:01):
operate and how you view yourself in relation to the world.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, so it almost starts as a survival skill, just
like everything else. So what is the difference between Like,
I know you know a lot about addiction. We talk
a lot abou addiction on this podcast. And when someone
is an active addiction, they are highly narcissistic typically, or
that's been my experience. I guess I should say they
can be. And then when someone is in let's say,
(19:27):
like an avoidance attachment style, that can also really read
like narcissism. But then I've also experienced addicts that get
sober and that those traits start to go away if
they're working a program, And then with avoidance, I've had
the same situation where if they start working with a therapist,
a lot of those traits go away. So what is
the difference between those kind of diagnosis and maybe a
(19:50):
narcissist that is beyond help or growing or changing or
anything like that. Like, how do we differentiate between that
if we're in a relationship like this.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
So I'll try to see it to clinical at this,
but substance abuse disorders and these kind of avoidant styles
of interacting with people, whether it's anxiety, whether it's low
self esteem, they're not personality disorders.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Okay, so they're they're.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Access one disorders, access two disorders, or personality disorders. So
the difference is that personality disorders are very much this way, right,
They're very much about there's a disconnect between your ability
to see you kind of in conjunction with the world
and working together. It's like you and isolation and everybody
(20:36):
else's kind.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Of so you against the world in a way.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, everybody with narcissis personage that are it's like everybody
is kind of an object and a prop in your
in your movie. Right.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
So with substance abuse, the reason why oftentimes while people
are using that it looks narcissistic, and we see this
a lot with anxiety and depression too, is because it's
such a self focused diagnosis. It's so much about self
consumption and just getting what you need, getting what you need,
getting what you need because you need it right physiologically,
(21:13):
you need it, You'll do whatever you need to do
to get it. It alters your personality. It makes you angry,
it makes you rage, it makes you, you know, switch
on and off really fast. So it looks very unstable,
it looks very self absorbed. It looks very selfish on
the surface. But again and same with avoidant attachment style, right,
you see avoidant attachment style and anxiety disorders and depression.
(21:37):
People that are avoidant with avoidant attachment saying anxiety disorders,
they don't not want to connect with people. They're just
scared or they don't have the social skills, which is
why sometimes we see people misdiagnosed autism sometimes or aspergners
with narciss personality.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
That makes sense to me, you know, because.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
It's so the kind of social skills are a little
bit off, but they don't want to not connect. They
just are either scared they don't have the strategies to
do so, so it looks narcissistic. But again I go
back to the function of the behavior, right, it's not
about power and control, right those maybe it's they're fearful,
(22:22):
they don't want to get hurt. They they're scared, they're
you know, and with substance a biasiness, that's a whole
different situation. But when they're sober, if they had narcissic
personalities or you wouldn't see.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That go away, right, It would be.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
There consistently, whether they were using or not. And then
with somebody who's avoiding intimacy or avoiding relationships or is
kind of that push pull dynamic. If they developed the
strategies to manage the anxiety and the uncertainty and the
discomfort of being with somebody, then you see a change
in their behavior. Somebody with narcissic personalities that are you're
(22:55):
not going to see any meaningful change. It's they're always
going to be that way. That's That's what I'm saying.
On the surface, a lot of the stuff looks the same,
but the underlying reason why they're doing it is very different.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Can a narcissists go to therapy and change.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
They can go to therapy. They won't go to therapy.
If they do go to therapy, it's usually because they
are either court mandated yeah, right, for like quote co parenting,
which is a whole other topic in and of itself.
Or let's say they're in a relationship with somebody or
in a family dynamic and they're saying, you know, well,
I'll go to couples therapy with you, which is the
(23:33):
worst thing to do with a narcissist, And there the
worst thing to do.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
It was terrible.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, it's I never recommend that, and so you know
they they don't think anything's wrong, and if you don't
like their behavior, well that's on you. You have to
figure that out. And so they'll either not stay or
if the therapist buys into it, which happens a lot,
then it's the it's their show, it's their platform, and
they'll use it, but not to get better. So even
(24:00):
so the best of the best of the best therapist
for narcissists, the true narcisst to make any meaningful, sustainable
change outside of the therapy. I mean, I hate saying never,
but it's pretty damn close. I'd say ninety nine point
nine percent. You're not going to change.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, I love that you just mentioned the couple's therapy
piece because that, as I've just said, it was an
experience that I had, and I am so grateful that
I had done all of the work on myself before
I got in that situation, because I was able to
call out what was happening. But what was happening to
me was so dangerous that if I hadn't had, I mean,
(24:39):
any sort of the knowledge that I had had or
the experience of healing that I had had, it would
have taken me out even further, and I was in
such a dark place already, so it was like, it
actually made me so upset about the therapy world in
general that this can happen, because I think it is
so incredibly dangerous for the people that are in the
(25:01):
partnership with the narcissist. But what would happen for me
is before I knew it, every session was about what
I was doing wrong. There was never anything really being
discussed about their part of anything. And that was not why.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
We started going to therapist's.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Right, and I was doing individual stuff on my own
I had for almost a decade. So the fact that
that was happening to me, it was just very scary
to me to witness. Is that what you see often
in your couple's therapy experiences.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
With that all the time. All the time I tell people,
you know, they're like, well, should we go to a
couples therapy No? No, because a couple of things happen. Unfortunately,
you know, a lot of therapists aren't trained to pick
up on the nuances of narcisstic personality or narcissistic abuse.
So if you go to couple's therapy with your partner
who's a narcissist. They're going to either charm the therapist
(25:53):
and they're so good at manipulating and gas lading, And
you're already going in confused and scared, uncertain and unsure.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
If the behaviors you're a human, you're a schell.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yeah, And so you don't want to speak your truth
because you're petrified because you have to drive home with
this person, and being in a car with an angry
narcissist is not where you want to be. You have
to go into the house with them, put your head
on the pillow next to them, or you have to,
you know, still see them at family events, whatever it is.
And so it's not safe for the survivor to be
(26:24):
in that dynamic. And then they're guessled even more unintentionally
by the therapist because the whole focus of therapy becomes
how you are a bad communicator, how it's a communication
issue not an abuse issue, how you somehow play some
role in this when you don't. And you know, I
think the worst thing I've ever heard that a couple's
(26:46):
therapists had said because they didn't pick up on this,
was they would encourage the couple to go on a
date night once a week.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
That's because that's what we did.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yes, And so well, here you are. You're being physically abused,
verbally abused, sexually abused, and you're being told by somebody
who's supposed to help you to go on date night
with your abuser. It is absolutely crazy. And so you
are totally traumatized, completely invalidated, and here's this professional who
(27:23):
is supposed to be helping you and you're leaving. Now
you feel even more disheartened to the likelihood of you
going to therapy. Now, if a therapist thinks that this
isn't an issue, well maybe it's not, so just isolate
you even further. So I tell people exactly like you did,
you have to do the work yourself. Yeah, prior to
if you do go to couple's therapy, and let's just
(27:43):
say you have a therapist, because all people say, well,
it actually was the best thing that could have happened
to me, because the therapist was able to confirm that, yes,
this person was a narcissist. And then what will happen
is I've had this happen so many times. They'll say,
can I bring my spouse in to the session? And
I'll know exactly what's what about. So you know, once
in a while, then sure you can bring them in.
(28:04):
And I do it on purpose because they will try
to manipulate, they'll try to gaslate me. I already know
what's going on, so I accept my boundaries. You know,
if it's if it's a female, it gets very argumentative.
If it's a male, it gets very They try to
you know, flirt, and then when that doesn't work, they
try something else, and eventually what happens they either storm
out mid session or they tell the partner she's an idiot,
(28:27):
she doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm never going
back to her again. All you guys did was gang
up on me, and they won't go So, you know,
that's usually what happens. But sometimes what it can do
is validate somebody like you to say, okay, wait, no,
all right, they agree with me this is I know
what this is well.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And thank god I had individual experience, like I said,
and I'd had a great therapist, like an individual therapist,
and so I was able to get my validation because
you need it, like I would know that when I
said that you're a shell of a human it's so
interesting that the time of things. But I had a video,
you know how iPhone like shows you old videos like
(29:05):
or photos or whatever. I had one pop up this
week from that time of my life. And I'm not
a big person, but I was probably fifteen pounds lighter
than I am right now, which on me is.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
A lot of weight.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I looked like a skeleton and it was so I
almost just broke down in tears seeing that because I
had to keep going in life, because I have responsibilities
and jobs and all the things. But my eyes in
my body were just screaming that I was in an
abusive situation, and like my eyes were vacant. I was
so incredibly skinny, and I worked until I literally couldn't.
(29:38):
Like it was just, you know, I had a massive
breakdown because for me, it was an experience where I
was in a romantic relationship. I had a work relationship
that was the same way, and a friendship. So I
was having the theme of narcissism yeah come up in
multiple things, but I think that happens to people, and
so I want to talk a little bit about who
this is happening to because the reason I want to
(29:59):
keep talking about this is I don't view myself as
a weak person. I don't view myself as a victim
or anything like that. I feel very capable in life,
but I was not, and I have also done a
ton of work on myself and I continue to always
have a growth mindset that almost made me more susceptible
to this kind of situation. And I want to talk
(30:22):
about that so that anyone else, either in this situation
or coming across people like that, don't end up where
I ended up. So can we talk about what you're
seeing in people that are victims of narcissistic abuse or
survivors or however you want to discribe.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, what does that typically look like?
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, so when you say that you were a shell
of your former self, I hear this all the time
and it breaks my heart. So that feeling is because
you know, when narcissists, what they do, their ultimate goal
is to gain total control over you. And so what
they do is they will very in a very subtle way.
You don't realize this is happening until later on, and
(31:00):
slowly and systematically kind of erode your self esteem one
layer at a time over time, till before you know it,
you are a total shell of your former self. You
have this trauma bond with them where you know that
they are horrible for you. You know this relationship is horrible,
and at the same time, the thought of leaving is
(31:23):
absolutely it's just so unbelievably frightening. And you have you've
been isolated, and you have been gaslets, so you don't
even trust your own perception of things or who you
can trust, and so it's very scary to leave, even
though you know it's not good for you. And I
think one of the things that I heard from from
a client once that I think really hits the nail
(31:45):
on the head for that kind of feeling afterwards, of
that empty shell. She said, I feel like a shell
of who I was. She said, I don't even know
what flavor ice cream I like, and it like it
sounds so ridiculous, but if you really think about it,
we all know what flavor ice cream you like. We
all know what kind of music we like. We know
what clothes we like to wear, we know what music
you know what movies we like. She had no sense
(32:06):
of identity, down to not even knowing the kind of
food she likes, because she was sold this narrative the
entire time of who she was supposed to be, down
to her choices of food. Right, So when you say that,
you know you view yourself as a strong person. One
of the biggest I think misconceptions of people who get
(32:28):
into these relationships is that narcissists go for, you know,
people with low self esteem, who are you know, kind
of just have no opinion, have no backbone. And then
that's not true. Narcissists go for people who are empathetic, sure,
because you know they want that from them, they crave
that they don't have that. But they go for people
(32:50):
who tend to be very successful in what they do,
very strong, have a lot of opinions, have a lot
to offer. You know, they don't go for weak people.
They go for the opposite. It makes number one, it
makes them look good. Number two. And this is the
part that really stilts this day. I always say, it
makes the hair on the backway necks sand up. And
(33:19):
this is the part that really still to this day,
I always say, makes the hair on the backwyecks end up.
The reason why is because if you have somebody who's
already so low about themselves, there's nothing for the narciss
to take away from them. There's no power or control
to gain from them. But if you have somebody who
is confident and reassured and successful and you know, loves
(33:42):
their life and is good at living their life, that's
way more to strip away and they get so much
more from that. So that's why they tend to go
for people like that. You don't go into these relationships
knowing they're abusive. That's the thing. What people don't realize.
These relationships don't start out like this. They know what
they're doing right. There's a deliberate effort to suck you in,
(34:04):
make you feel vulnerable, make you feel like you're special
and you're new. You're almost like they've selected you. They've
chosen you because there's something about you and it feels
really good, and all of us are susceptible to that.
So these relationships, it's not like somebody is being abusive
and you're willingly going blind into this. No, they're they're
not like that in the beginning, and by the time
(34:24):
you realize what's happening, you're not who you were. You're
that strong person. You're still there, but it's it's under
a lot of rubble. We have to like pull it out,
but you don't have that mindset to be able to
get out. If you did, then yeah, you'd get out,
no question about it. But the whole point of stripping
that away is so that when you realize this is
(34:45):
not healthy, you don't have the cognitive or emotional resources,
or financial resources or support so you able to pull
yourself out.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Well, you mentioned a couple of things I want to
touch on. One empathy, because I think that can be
very dangerous in this situation. And two, it's like, when
you realize you need to get out, the actual piece
of getting out, because I mean, all I can speak
about is my own experience. But I realized it very
early on, actually like this is not going to work.
So I would try to get out and then I
(35:14):
am very high in empathy, and the person would come
back and convince me, you know, no, it's different and whatever.
And like I said earlier in the podcast, you can't
fully grapple with or grasp the fact that they're not
telling the truth because, like I, that's just not how
my brain works, That's not what I'm doing on a
day to day basis. So I look at it through
(35:35):
the lens of how I would be operating. So if
I'm going to a person and I'm saying, hey, I
really want to work on this, I really want to
work this out.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I see what I did.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I'll work on that, and you know, really take some
steps to change. I mean it, I'm not just saying it,
but that wasn't my experience. And then every time I
would go back because it happened. I mean, I would
say for almost two years on and off and on
and off and on and off and on and off,
I was it was like taking a tick out of
you know, me, like you were saying, like, I just
(36:06):
became a shell even more of myself, and I became
addicted to the chemicals.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Of whatever that is.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
And I literally started I mean, I was diagnosing myself
with all this like love, addiction and all of these things.
And while maybe there were some traits of that happening
at the time, I don't identify with that out of
a relationship with narcissists.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Now that I have all these.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Other relationships, I'm like, oh wait, I was literally taking
so much ownership for all of these things being quote
unquote wrong with me. Yeah, that weren't actually even reality,
That's right. Can you describe that, like, was that typical?
Is that does normally happened?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Yes, one hundred percent when I was a hundred percent normal,
one hundred percent normal. So I always say this. You know,
on average it's about seven, seven or eight times before
somebody actually leads a relationship for good. So it's very
rare that somebody in a narcissistic abusive relationship is going
to leave and stay.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Well, they did not want you to, I mean, they
don't want you to give, but then they're back, that's right.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And it's not because they want you back because they
miss you or so they love you. It's because they
want to It's a couple of things. One, it's they
want they still want to have control and power over you, right,
they want to know that they can manipulate you at
any time. But also every time you go back, they
(37:23):
view that as almost permission, giving that the way they've
been acting, Well, then you came back.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So it's okay.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
In my eyes, it's okay. The empathetic person, especially for
people who are in the mental health field or for
people who just are always kind of looking about how
to grow and learn, it's so difficult and even as
a psychologist say this, For me to actually actually say,
for the worst to come out of my mouth that
they can't change, Yeah, takes so much to say that.
(37:54):
I don't say that casually at all, because that's why
I'm in this field. I think everybody can troubled. That's
why all job except for this, except for this, and
all I can do is work with the people who
are with them and in these relationships to help them
change and stay safe and leave the relationship. But what
you experienced, the blaming yourself and trying to figure out
it must be something wrong with you and diagnosing yourself
(38:17):
and not realizing that it's a reaction and appropriate reaction
to the abuse. I mean, you're constantly being in some way,
shape or form, being told you're not good enough, you're
not doing enough, you don't love enough, you don't care enough,
that they wouldn't have acted this way if you hadn't
(38:37):
done this, and that you guys need to communicate more. So,
even if it's not it's your fault, there's always this
underlying vibe of we need to make this better, we
need to make this work. It's you and I and
we have to fix this. And it's not a we thing.
It's not. It literally has nothing to do with you.
You were caught up in this, but it is not
(38:58):
because of you. The inability to see it for what
it is. It's almost like a fish and a fishball.
That's the analogy I give. You don't know you're in it.
You just know you don't feel right. You know this
isn't healthy. You can't identify it because you're so confused
because abusive people. This is the thing about narcissic abuse,
and this is why it feels addicting narcissistic abuse. In
(39:23):
part of that cycle is that they are purposely not
abusive all the time, outwardly abusive, but those stages of
being nice and loving and doting and apologetic and all
of that stuff is part of the abuse. It's not stages.
It's a cycle. So it's not like they were abusive
but now they're getting better. No, they're just in the
(39:43):
next stage of the cycle. So when that happens, it
creates this kind of chemical addiction that you're talking about.
It's this release of dopamine, these short spurts of dopamine.
You never know when you're going to get it, and
so you keep hanging in there. It's no. The model
is actually very similar to an addiction model. So if
you take gambling, for example, you never know what you're
(40:05):
going to get to. Same with a narcissistic partner. You
can try to predict what's going to set them off.
The whole thing about narcissistic abuse is there is no
rhyme or reason, and that's a purpose. If there was
a pattern to what would set them off, you'd figure
it out. But just when you think you figured it out,
they purposely change it up again, so you have no
(40:26):
idea what's going to set them off, which is why
you're always walking on eggshells, trying everything under the sun
to try to get them to stay not abusive, but
that is the abuse. And so if they are triggered
and they are set off, it must be you because
they're so nice to everybody else, and they've been so
nice for so long, so clearly they're trying, but then
(40:47):
they got set off because of something you apparently did,
and so it just keeps that cycle going of thinking
it's your fault when it's not well.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
And the other thing that I think is really interesting
is somehow they're always the vicar, even when they've done something. Yes, yeah,
and that that has been my experience a lot where
it's like there's a bomb dropped And this wasn't even
in my romantic relationship. This was in the other situations
I was talking about too. There was a bomb drop
that they create like that I really would have nothing
(41:16):
to do with, and then somehow the spin was that
I caused it, it was my fault. And then when
I have an issue with that, I'm playing the victim.
So it's like you really cannot win. And actually even
saying like you don't, it's like you almost don't even
want them to know that you're onto them, because that
(41:37):
all makes it worse.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
You don't that's right, Yeah, I tell people there, Yeah,
I mean the more you figure them out, Yeah, that's
the more they're losing control over you. Okay, So you
know that's why I tell people if they're leaving these relationships,
don't ever tell them that you're onto them. Don't call
them a narcissists, don't tell them that you're leaving, because one,
it makes you way more susceptible to manipulation to convince
(42:01):
you that you're wrong, and you don't want them to
know that they're losing control over you, because that's sometimes
I can escalate the behavior. So the more you figure
them out, the more they feel you're they're losing control
over you. And then that's when things like character assassination
comes in, where they start attacking your character, start talking
badly about you to other people, which they've probably already
(42:23):
laid the groundwork ahead of time, so that if things
blow up you do an ability, yeah, you look crazy,
you lose credibility, no one's going to believe you, you know,
So that starts to happen, and all of that is
so that they want you to respond to that. So
even in the most difficult scenarios where somebody is absolutely
(42:44):
bashing your character around the people that you know and
love with a narcissists, the worst thing to do is
try to defend yourself. Right, is to get your story
out there, because if the function of it is to
control you, the worst thing you can do is give
that control. So I always tell people, don't let them
(43:06):
know you're onto them, don't try to logic with them,
reason with them, respond to it. That's that's what they want.
And it's hard for us because when we're arguing with
someone and we're upset with someone, the natural reaction is
to talk it out.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Well, yeah, to take relationship.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
With right right, even if even if it pains you
and you don't want to be wrong right, Like we've
all been there, you still have that conversation because you
don't want the other person to hurt. And that that's
the difference with this.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I just want to say this, if anyone is listening
and they are identifying and they're stuck in this kind
of relationship, First of all, I have the most empathy,
sympathy compassion for anyone going through this because for me,
it was one of the hardest, if not the hardest
things of my life to go through and experience. And obviously,
(43:58):
if someone is saying lies about you or making up
stories or making you look bad, it's a natural human
response to want to defend.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
So it was.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
I mean, I think that was one of the most
difficult things for me ever, was to have to keep
my mouth shut and let someone continue to your assassinate me,
to be the bad guy in someone's stories, even when
that was impacting my life on such a big scale too.
You know, it's like systematically destroying so much that you've built,
but Also I had a knowing of if I speak out,
(44:29):
it's going to be worse, and like, you just can't
win that war, Like you can't win the war of
the kind of or you can't beat them at the
game that they created.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
So I was gonna say, you can win, but you, okay, most.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
People, you can't win in the way that you think
you would win. Yeah, you win by not participating, rather
than trying to correct them or get ahead or you know,
or or convince people. Otherwise, you actually win by because remember,
their goal isn't too assassinate your character. Your goal is
(45:02):
to assassinate your character so that they get a response
from you, so they get into your head, so they
get an emotional something out of you. Because what they've
been doing hasn't been working.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
It's almost like when you keep talking about.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Trying to control your narrative, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, and when you keep talking about they don't care
if it's good or bad. It's almost just like it's
like a hit, like a drug, Like that's what it
sounds like. It just sounds like they just need some
sort of hit from you. So the more you engage,
the more they get that that was something that really
helped me during the process, because again, you want to defend,
you want to stand up for yourself. Sure, I'm such
(45:43):
a justice person. I'm like, this isn't fair. You know,
that's a big thing for me. So that was what
made it so hard for me to leave these situations too.
But knowing that they were getting more from me responding
actually made it a little easier to be like, okay,
I'm stopping, like to make you actually quit because I
didn't want to give any thing anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
And it's it's hard because you know. The other thing too,
is that by by spreading these rumors and assassinating someone's character,
it's to ruin your credibility, but also so that nobody
will believe the abuse. You know, we see that a lot. Well,
you know she they've been laying the groundwork for years.
Well she she's she's got a lot of depression stuff
(46:22):
going on, or you know, she drinks a little too much,
and then they slowly lay those seeds so that when
they need to use it, it's already been planted.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
I mean, I feel like I could talk about this forever.
This is such a nuanced topic. I know, if anyone
is listening and they're really really just struggling in this situation.
What's the one thing you would say, like, what's the
first step to getting help for yourself or getting out
of the situation?
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Even Yeah, the first step I would say, if you
can find a therapist who is aware of these nuanced behaviors.
Do that. The second thing I would say is that
there is another side to this. Yes, it is very,
very difficult to get there, but I promise you that
once you see the blueprint of a narcissist's behavior, you
(47:07):
absolutely what, one hundred percent cannot unsee it. It is
impossible to unsee it, and so you will have this
moment of like this almost like you Actually, it's one
of the few things that I see with patients where
there's this definitive moment of oh my god, where all
the pieces start to fit together. You know, depression, anxiety,
(47:28):
it's kind of ongoing, it ebbs, it flows, But with this,
there's a very distinct moment and it's very traumatic. I'm
not saying this feels good, but it's this very specific
moment where you realize, oh my god, this is what
it is. Wait, okay, and then you start putting the
pieces together. It totally implodes your world. I mean, it's
very difficult when you come to that realization. But it's
(47:50):
also empowering at the same time, because now that you
can see these patterns, you can be a couple steps
ahead to be able to predict it and then be
able to respond in a much healthier way for yourself,
rather than trying to respond when you're when you're kind
of sucked into that web. It allows you to separate
yourself and look at the behaviors rather than be tangled
up in them.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Yes, you nailed it with Once you see it, you
can't and see it can And then you start seeing
it in.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Other places in your life or in people.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
You meet, and I'm like, now, literally I can shake
someone's hand and be like, hey, I'm walking away, yes,
because I know I cannot engage in those kind of
relationships and not go back to old behaviors that I
used to be in. They it's it's not good for me.
So I just have to not be in those kind
of relationships period.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
So and it's funny. I'll have people say too, you know, well,
they they take it to an extreme. They'll say, oh,
you're gonna be so excited. I went on a date,
but it was horrible. Why was it horrible? He opened
the door for me? What what? What he opened? He
held the door for me, Like I can't open my
own door, and like, okay, well, let's you know, that
(48:55):
doesn't mean they're a narcissists, right back it up a
little bit, right, So, but that's normal. It's normal to
go from when you've been so you know, in one
extreme for so long, it's very normal to go to
the other extreme. And that's why therapy is very helpful yea,
because it helps you move towards the middle. But it's
very common I see that for people to kind of
go from one extreme to the other. And understandably so,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
You're rereading everyone's a narcissist.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, your brain's trying to protect you because if, of
course doesn't want to go through that again.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yes, well, if you are listening and you are resonating
with anything we're saying. Doctor Zy also has her own
podcast and that's that narcissism, which would be also a
great place to start if you're struggling with figuring out
your situation because you can do it on your own.
It can be secret from your partner or whatever. Tell
us a little bit about what you talk about on
the podcast.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Yeah, So next up narcissism. We talk about, or I
should say, I talk about all different topics about narcissistic
abuse and narcissic personality. So are from financial abuse to
co parenting with a narcissist, to working with a narcissists,
how to navigate the relationships, behavioral strategies. I have a
lot of people come on that, you know, our experts
(50:00):
in certain areas of narcissistic abuse to really really kind
of just get into the nuances and the behaviors of it,
because it is, as you said, it's so specific and
really kind of get people on the right path as
to understanding exactly what this type of abuse is and
what it is not.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah, I think the hardest part about this kind of
abuse is it's so psychological, so it's often not even
you can't see it happening like from the outside all
the time. So that is but if you know it,
if you're in it, I do think you know it.
So yeah, check out that podcast. I'm also going to
put a link to your website because you have two
books that it might also be really good resources, so
(50:39):
you guys go check that out. And also Instagram and
social media. I think that you give such good soundbites
and little videos that have been very helpful for me
and say I will put all of that again in
the description of this podcast for you guys, Thank you
for coming on, thank.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
You for having me, Thank you for talking about this.
It's so important, so I hope this is helpful to
your listeners.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
For me too. Thank you guys for listening.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
Mm hm
Doctor Jamie Zuckerman, also known as doctor Z, is a
licensed clinical psychologist and relationship coach specializing in narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi, doctor Z, Hi, how are you? I'm good.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I was just saying to you, It's so weird because
I've been following you for years on Instagram, so I
feel like I know you like.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Lady got on and I was like, oh, hey, I interesting.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I wanted to ask you though, because obviously you have
a ton of credentials, but you've now narrowed it down
to focus specifically on narcissistic abuse. Was there some catalysts
that made you go in this direction?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Yeah? So great question. I always get asked this question.
So there were two main things. The first was when
I went into private practice many many moons ago, I
started seeing this pattern. I saw mostly women, but men too,
But I was seeing a lot of women coming in
with you know, they'd say they had anxiety or depression,
but as we started working on it, it really wasn't that,
(01:08):
and it was really that they were in these narcissistic
abusive either you know, intimate relationships or family relationships, even
friendship or coworkers, and nobody knew how do identify it.
Nobody knew what it was. It was so confusing to
even begin to talk about. And so I realized very
quickly that there really were very few resources clinically for
(01:31):
people that were in these relationships. And so it kind
of stemmed from that. And I, you know, and I
always say, for when I was in graduate school, we
didn't really dive that much into narcissistic personality disorder at all.
If anything, we talked about borderline personality sort are, But
really we kind of were given a really quick overview
of like this stereotypical, hollywoodized version of what narcissistic personality
(01:56):
disorder is, which is a part of it, but lean
out the whole picture. And so that happened, and so
I started getting into it for private practice because I
just found it was such a need. And then I
kind of had a front row seat to one of
my nearest and dearest friends going through it and kind
of witness it firsthand and realize, you know, there is
(02:17):
such a need for this, and people feel so lost
and so confused, and they don't know what end is up,
and there's so much healing that needs to come with that.
So that's kind of why I really started to narrow
that down.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
God, I mean, you just pinged so many different questions
for me, So I'm just gonna try to start with
one and then I'll try to cover all.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Oh yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
You mentioned in grad school, y'all not really covering this.
And the next thing I wanted to ask you about was, obviously,
narcissism has become our narcissist has become.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Such a buzzword everywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I feel like anytime I open my social media and
obviously like it's in my algorithm because I've clicked on
a bunch, but I feel like it's still everywhere. So
why when you were going through school was this barely
touched on. Why do you think that it's so much
more widely discussed.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I think it's a couple of things. I think first is,
when you're dealing with narcissistic personality soda, the quote percentage
of people that they say that are diagnosed with this
is very very i would say misrepresented, and so originally
it was thought to be this very tiny portion of
the population for a couple of reasons, once they don't
present for treatment. So really it's kind of this weird
(03:23):
secondhand diagnosis of somebody that you're not really even treating.
You're treating usually the significant others or the friends or
the family members. You're not treating the narcissists themselves, and
if you are, it's very short lived. So I think
that's a big part of it. I think that because
of that, and because there were so much misinformation about it,
(03:44):
that people were always experiencing it, they just never knew
what it was. They would sooner assume that they were
having communication issues or that yes, they were an abusive relationship,
but they couldn't really put their finger on it, and
they really blame themselves that they were at fault because
it's so much manipulative like that, so it's very hard
to identify. And then obviously with social media, I think
(04:07):
is when it really started to kind of take off
for better or worse. Because I hate when diagnoses trend
that yeah it's good and it's bad. But with social media,
I think people started sharing their stories, and I think
survivor stories are one of the most important aspects of treatment,
and so I think when people started seeing other people
going through this and saying, oh my, oh my god,
(04:27):
that's that's my life, you know, or if I even
posted something like wait, what, there's there's a name for this.
This is the thing. And then I think with COVID
in particular, that's when I mean, I'd always specialized in this,
but that's when I really saw an uptick in people
really kind of understanding what it was and realizing that
(04:47):
this is something that they either experienced or were experiencing.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's interesting. Do you think it's because during COVID we
were at home more and so they're spending more time
with these said narcissists.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
That there was nowhere to go, there was no to escape,
But also because our only outlet was social media, and
so everybody was kind of gravitating towards TikTok and Instagram
and way more than they normally would have, and people
were either posting more about it or people were reading
more about it, whatever, whatever the case may be. I
(05:18):
think that's when it really started to kind of go
in that direction for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, well, you mentioned the good and bad about it
being such a talked about thing on social media, and
I want to kind of dive into that because that
is the personal experience that I have had as someone
who has gone through relationships like this, to almost the
point of my own demise, like completely, like it will
take you out, and we'll get into that a little bit,
but I really relate to the good and bad of
(05:45):
it because good being it helped me feel less crazy
to hear some of these people who specialized it, like you.
I've told you, I've been following you for years, and
one of you know, one of the reasons was because
I didn't have that much knowledge about exactly what I
was going through. And it does make you feel so crazy.
So when someone is specifically describing your situation, it is
so validating and you're like, oh my god, thank god.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
You know, there's the relief.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
But then on the flip side, like you said, because
it's so widely discussed now, I feel like in some
ways it's like, oh, well everyone's a narcissist, and so
it kind.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Of loses its power.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So what are you seeing with maybe the bad or
the negative trends happening with it being so easily labeled
and discussed like this, So I.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Think, well, the downside is that exactly like you said,
you know, just because somebody's a jerk, just because somebody
broke up with you, just because somebody cheated on you.
Just because somebody wromed you does not mean they're a narcissist.
Just because somebody's selfish, Just because somebody is self absorbed
does not make them a narcissist. Somebody who is a narcissist.
(06:49):
It is a very distinct and pervasive personality style that
infistrates all aspects of their life. It's not just with
one person. It's not like they're going to be I mean,
will be different with other people, but that's part of
their pattern, but they won't truly inherently be different and
better with somebody else, you know. So I think that's
(07:10):
a big part of it. The other is, I think
sometimes because for some reason, and I've noticed this a lot,
because I get a lot of criticism about this, When
you have a mental health diagnosis, particularly narcisstic personality SODA,
and you have clinicians like myself stating the facts, stating
(07:31):
the symptoms, stating the behaviors that you'll see, you get
a lot of push back in the sense of, you know,
why are you bad mouthing You're a psychologist, why are
you bad mouthing people with a mental health set? And
here's the thing, I think that people are so quick
to say, you know, they're a narcissist or the reverse,
not everyone's a narcissist, and then it waters down what
(07:52):
it really is, and people don't want to come forward
because they don't want to get that label of just
because they were rude to you means they're a narciss
It's that the behavior sounds that bad because they are
that bad, right, it really is that bad. And so
I get a lot of pushback, Well, you know, these
are wounded people too, and I'm not saying they aren't.
(08:15):
But what I am saying is that there's plenty of
wounded people who don't deliberately harm other people. And you know,
I'm not going to say to my patients who are
you know, I always say this because this is true
some of my female patients who are married. I'm not
going to say to my female patients that the reason
why their spouse forces them to have sex with them
and do things they don't want to do is because
(08:36):
they're wounded people. So I think what ended up happening
was it watered down what narcissistic personality sort what narcissistic
abuse really is, and so people are hesitant to come forward.
Sometimes people with very large platforms who may have experienced
this themselves, and not to downplay their experiences they think
are very important. I think then try to educate on
(08:59):
the diagnosis without having the clinical understanding and the behavioral
understanding of the nuances of it, and I think that
gets people into trouble.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I totally totally agree with that. Well, let's maybe dive
into what narcissism really is. We had doctor Keith Campbell
on the podcast. This was years ago, and it was
actually in the trenches of me going through my own
relationships like this and kind of starting to uncover what
narcissism was. And I was digging deep, but I was
(09:28):
still so scared to speak about this topic. And I
think that would make sense to you if you know
anything about narcissism, But it's almost crippling what it does
to your brain to be on the other side of it,
and so I was trying to dip my toe in
and he was a very perfect interview for me for
that because he wrote a book about the sliding scale
(09:48):
of narcissistic traits. So there's narcissistic personality disorder as you're
talking about it. But then obviously, like we all have
a little bit of, you know, a narcissistic trait here
and there, So can you speak to that and how
help my listeners understand the difference between having one narcissistic trait,
having narcissistic personality disorder, or even having a high narcissistic
(10:09):
streak is I guess what my therapist started calling it.
Can you speak to that a little bit and help
the listeners understand?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah? Sure, so, yes, all of us have traits where
whether we want to call them narcissistic traits or whatever
the case may be. But the difference is is that
when you're talking about those types of traits, they're fluid,
meaning you know when you or I are doing something,
let's say that we really excel at right. So you
on your podcast, right, it's your confidence and you're you
(10:40):
feeling empowered. That's going to show through more because it's
your podcast. You know what you're doing, it's you know
what I'm saying, it's it's yours. You own it, So
that's going to come out more. But if you were
to go rock climbing, and let's say you've never gone
rock climbing in your life, you're not going to carry
that same kind of persona about you into a different
situation where you don't know anything about it. You're going
(11:02):
to take in information, You're going to be able to
take a step back, put yourself in check, right, and
so that in that sense, it's fluid, right. Sometimes when
you're doing things where you're very confident. We see this
with athletes a lot. Right, when they're doing what they're
good at their narciss situations, maybe they're higher or their
confidence level is extremely high. But when they're at home
with their family or they're doing something else, it's not there.
(11:24):
Not saying they're not confident, but you see that variation, right.
They know when to be one way, they switch it
to another to adapt to the situation. Okay, Then you
have people that on the surface, their behaviors may look
extremely similar to narcissistic personality disorder, their patterns, what they say,
(11:44):
how they act. However, it could be that they are
repeating the only things that they've known. Right. Maybe they
grow up in an environment and they're repeating the patterns or
their strategy is the total opposite of what they grow
up and to kind of compensate for that. But when
brought to their attention and their awareness that their behaviors
or their patterns are hurting other people, and maybe they
(12:08):
just don't have that awareness and you bring it to
their attention. The function of their behavior isn't to harm others.
So when you bring it to their attention, they may
be scared as hell to change and it may be
very difficult, but the purpose or the why behind their
behavior is not power and control. With a narcissist, their
behaviors across the board will always be about power and control.
(12:32):
It doesn't matter how you dress it up. It could
be taking you to dinner, it could be starting an
argument with you on your birthday. It could be anything.
It could be getting you a gift, it could be
calling you for help. Whatever it is, there's always an
underlying function of power and control. Always, and so I
always tell people that those types of behaviors with a narcissist,
(12:53):
it's going to happen all the time. It's not fluid.
It is constant, characteristic. It's never going to change that.
It's who they are. Doesn't matter what you do differently,
how you respond, that's just that's who they are. That's
not shifting.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
The power and control piece is interesting because I used
to describe it as I just feel like it's always
about winning. Yes, that's what it is, right, Like, it
just felt like, no matter what was happening, or what
was said, or what was done, or what could be
easier if the outcome was more mutual, it felt like
the win was the most important thing at all times.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
And it's not even the win. I would take it
one step further, and I would say, because they wouldn't
care if they lost or they won, as long as
whatever it was gave them access to manipulate your thoughts,
your emotions, and your behaviors. So it's that winning. I
think what you're describing is more of as long as
they can gain access to your internal world, right whether
(13:54):
they're physically present or not, but as long as what
they're doing is giving them control and power over you
and therefore taking control and power away from you.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So, is there a situation where someone can be very high,
like if we're using that scale as the indicator here,
they can be very high in narcissistic traits and not
have full blown narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So is there a situation.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Where someone can be very high like if we're using
that scale as the indicator here. They can be very
high in narcissistic traits and not have full blown narcissistic
personality disorder.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, there can be. I think what you'll find is
that they're probably very difficult to deal with. I think
the defining variable is that is that function again, is
that they don't necessarily want to harm people, but the
thought of giving up control is very scary to them.
So I think you'll find that more and more where
(14:58):
you get to narcissistic personality just or it's you're in
the way of getting what they need, and they'll do
whatever they need to do to get power and control
in those situations, or they'll do whatever they need to
do to manipulate the situation, and there's no remorse or
empathy about that, and they're they're aware of it, they're
aware that they're doing that. They don't they don't care.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, they don't care as exactly what was coming to
my mind, Which is such an interesting thing because if
you're a human with any sort of compassion or empathy,
it doesn't even cross your mind to not care. You know,
I've been in so many situations, and I know in
my situation specifically, I could not wrap my mind around
what was happening, because my brain genuinely does not think
(15:40):
that way. Like I could not process laying my head
down to go to sleep at night doing the kind
of things that were happening. So I just kept trying
to almost rationalize that, Oh, it can't be that. It
looks like this, it smells like this, it walks like this,
it talks like this, But like, it can't be that,
because how could a person do that? Like that is
(16:01):
literally what would go through my mind all the time.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
That's I think one of the defining moments I have
with a lot of my patients is that moment of
clarity where you realize there are no other alternative responses
except the one you really don't want.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
It to be, because if.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
You accept that that's really what it is, your entire
you know, view of people of humanity almost you know,
your entire view of the world is kind of pulled
out from under you, and you have to reformulate how
you view things now. And it makes people. It really
it really throws people. It really throws people.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh and it takes forever for it to fully sink in.
I think krit did for me, at least to really
fully accept it and name it and say what it
was and know that it was not going to change.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It takes forever, It took a lot, and that it
has nothing to do with you, and that it has
nothing to do and that's hard.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's hard to understand too, because to think that somebody
would do this just because they can or just because
it made them feel better, is even though they saw
the pain that you were in and there was no
empathy there. It's a very difficult pill to.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Swallow, very difficult.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, you mentioned that you know, narcissist or people with
high narcissistic traits are also wounded, and I want to
talk a little bit about the origin of narcissism and
why someone would even develop these kind of traits. Are
you just born this way? Is it a nature nature
versus nurture thing? How does this happen and why does
it stay?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, so there's a lot of theories out there, but
primarily what people will tell you and what the research
will tell you is that you know, it really comes
from your developmental upbringing. What starts originally, let's say, as
you know, as children were very smart when we're children,
and so we come up with very creative ways to
make sense and navigate our world, and when our world
(17:56):
is chaotic and uncertain, right, So we see this a
lot with the violence. We see this with you know,
when one caregiver has a drug or alcohol problem or
is neglectful. So you know, any type of chaotic upbringing,
the child has to navigate that. And so what may
have worked for them in childhood, right, Let's say, putting
(18:17):
up a wall and never letting people get to them
ever again, They're never going to let anybody make them
feel like crap ever again. That helps them right through childhood,
let's say. But then once you're out of that dynamic
and you're out of that context and there's no need
for that severe of a behavioral response anymore. But yet
you're still acting in that way, understandably, So throughout your
(18:40):
adulthood it's not working anymore. Right, you start to hit walls,
and your unwillingness or inability to identify that that needs
to shift oftentimes lead you into unhealthy relationships down the
route of personality disorders because they're so solidified and they're
so ingrained in terms so your brain and how you
(19:01):
operate and how you view yourself in relation to the world.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, so it almost starts as a survival skill, just
like everything else. So what is the difference between Like,
I know you know a lot about addiction. We talk
a lot abou addiction on this podcast. And when someone
is an active addiction, they are highly narcissistic typically, or
that's been my experience. I guess I should say they
can be. And then when someone is in let's say,
(19:27):
like an avoidance attachment style, that can also really read
like narcissism. But then I've also experienced addicts that get
sober and that those traits start to go away if
they're working a program, And then with avoidance, I've had
the same situation where if they start working with a therapist,
a lot of those traits go away. So what is
the difference between those kind of diagnosis and maybe a
(19:50):
narcissist that is beyond help or growing or changing or
anything like that. Like, how do we differentiate between that
if we're in a relationship like this.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
So I'll try to see it to clinical at this,
but substance abuse disorders and these kind of avoidant styles
of interacting with people, whether it's anxiety, whether it's low
self esteem, they're not personality disorders.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Okay, so they're they're.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Access one disorders, access two disorders, or personality disorders. So
the difference is that personality disorders are very much this way, right,
They're very much about there's a disconnect between your ability
to see you kind of in conjunction with the world
and working together. It's like you and isolation and everybody
(20:36):
else's kind.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Of so you against the world in a way.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, everybody with narcissis personage that are it's like everybody
is kind of an object and a prop in your
in your movie. Right.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
So with substance abuse, the reason why oftentimes while people
are using that it looks narcissistic, and we see this
a lot with anxiety and depression too, is because it's
such a self focused diagnosis. It's so much about self
consumption and just getting what you need, getting what you need,
getting what you need because you need it right physiologically,
(21:13):
you need it, You'll do whatever you need to do
to get it. It alters your personality. It makes you angry,
it makes you rage, it makes you, you know, switch
on and off really fast. So it looks very unstable,
it looks very self absorbed. It looks very selfish on
the surface. But again and same with avoidant attachment style, right,
you see avoidant attachment style and anxiety disorders and depression.
(21:37):
People that are avoidant with avoidant attachment saying anxiety disorders,
they don't not want to connect with people. They're just
scared or they don't have the social skills, which is
why sometimes we see people misdiagnosed autism sometimes or aspergners
with narciss personality.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
That makes sense to me, you know, because.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
It's so the kind of social skills are a little
bit off, but they don't want to not connect. They
just are either scared they don't have the strategies to
do so, so it looks narcissistic. But again I go
back to the function of the behavior, right, it's not
about power and control, right those maybe it's they're fearful,
(22:22):
they don't want to get hurt. They they're scared, they're
you know, and with substance a biasiness, that's a whole
different situation. But when they're sober, if they had narcissic
personalities or you wouldn't see.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That go away, right, It would be.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
There consistently, whether they were using or not. And then
with somebody who's avoiding intimacy or avoiding relationships or is
kind of that push pull dynamic. If they developed the
strategies to manage the anxiety and the uncertainty and the
discomfort of being with somebody, then you see a change
in their behavior. Somebody with narcissic personalities that are you're
(22:55):
not going to see any meaningful change. It's they're always
going to be that way. That's That's what I'm saying.
On the surface, a lot of the stuff looks the same,
but the underlying reason why they're doing it is very different.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Can a narcissists go to therapy and change.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
They can go to therapy. They won't go to therapy.
If they do go to therapy, it's usually because they
are either court mandated yeah, right, for like quote co parenting,
which is a whole other topic in and of itself.
Or let's say they're in a relationship with somebody or
in a family dynamic and they're saying, you know, well,
I'll go to couples therapy with you, which is the
(23:33):
worst thing to do with a narcissist, And there the
worst thing to do.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
It was terrible.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, it's I never recommend that, and so you know
they they don't think anything's wrong, and if you don't
like their behavior, well that's on you. You have to
figure that out. And so they'll either not stay or
if the therapist buys into it, which happens a lot,
then it's the it's their show, it's their platform, and
they'll use it, but not to get better. So even
(24:00):
so the best of the best of the best therapist
for narcissists, the true narcisst to make any meaningful, sustainable
change outside of the therapy. I mean, I hate saying never,
but it's pretty damn close. I'd say ninety nine point
nine percent. You're not going to change.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, I love that you just mentioned the couple's therapy
piece because that, as I've just said, it was an
experience that I had, and I am so grateful that
I had done all of the work on myself before
I got in that situation, because I was able to
call out what was happening. But what was happening to
me was so dangerous that if I hadn't had, I mean,
(24:39):
any sort of the knowledge that I had had or
the experience of healing that I had had, it would
have taken me out even further, and I was in
such a dark place already, so it was like, it
actually made me so upset about the therapy world in
general that this can happen, because I think it is
so incredibly dangerous for the people that are in the
(25:01):
partnership with the narcissist. But what would happen for me
is before I knew it, every session was about what
I was doing wrong. There was never anything really being
discussed about their part of anything. And that was not why.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
We started going to therapist's.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Right, and I was doing individual stuff on my own
I had for almost a decade. So the fact that
that was happening to me, it was just very scary
to me to witness. Is that what you see often
in your couple's therapy experiences.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
With that all the time. All the time I tell people,
you know, they're like, well, should we go to a
couples therapy No? No, because a couple of things happen. Unfortunately,
you know, a lot of therapists aren't trained to pick
up on the nuances of narcisstic personality or narcissistic abuse.
So if you go to couple's therapy with your partner
who's a narcissist. They're going to either charm the therapist
(25:53):
and they're so good at manipulating and gas lading, And
you're already going in confused and scared, uncertain and unsure.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
If the behaviors you're a human, you're a schell.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yeah, And so you don't want to speak your truth
because you're petrified because you have to drive home with
this person, and being in a car with an angry
narcissist is not where you want to be. You have
to go into the house with them, put your head
on the pillow next to them, or you have to,
you know, still see them at family events, whatever it is.
And so it's not safe for the survivor to be
(26:24):
in that dynamic. And then they're guessled even more unintentionally
by the therapist because the whole focus of therapy becomes
how you are a bad communicator, how it's a communication
issue not an abuse issue, how you somehow play some
role in this when you don't. And you know, I
think the worst thing I've ever heard that a couple's
(26:46):
therapists had said because they didn't pick up on this,
was they would encourage the couple to go on a
date night once a week.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
That's because that's what we did.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yes, And so well, here you are. You're being physically abused,
verbally abused, sexually abused, and you're being told by somebody
who's supposed to help you to go on date night
with your abuser. It is absolutely crazy. And so you
are totally traumatized, completely invalidated, and here's this professional who
(27:23):
is supposed to be helping you and you're leaving. Now
you feel even more disheartened to the likelihood of you
going to therapy. Now, if a therapist thinks that this
isn't an issue, well maybe it's not, so just isolate
you even further. So I tell people exactly like you did,
you have to do the work yourself. Yeah, prior to
if you do go to couple's therapy, and let's just
(27:43):
say you have a therapist, because all people say, well,
it actually was the best thing that could have happened
to me, because the therapist was able to confirm that, yes,
this person was a narcissist. And then what will happen
is I've had this happen so many times. They'll say,
can I bring my spouse in to the session? And
I'll know exactly what's what about. So you know, once
in a while, then sure you can bring them in.
(28:04):
And I do it on purpose because they will try
to manipulate, they'll try to gaslate me. I already know
what's going on, so I accept my boundaries. You know,
if it's if it's a female, it gets very argumentative.
If it's a male, it gets very They try to
you know, flirt, and then when that doesn't work, they
try something else, and eventually what happens they either storm
out mid session or they tell the partner she's an idiot,
(28:27):
she doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm never going
back to her again. All you guys did was gang
up on me, and they won't go So, you know,
that's usually what happens. But sometimes what it can do
is validate somebody like you to say, okay, wait, no,
all right, they agree with me this is I know
what this is well.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And thank god I had individual experience, like I said,
and I'd had a great therapist, like an individual therapist,
and so I was able to get my validation because
you need it, like I would know that when I
said that you're a shell of a human it's so
interesting that the time of things. But I had a video,
you know how iPhone like shows you old videos like
(29:05):
or photos or whatever. I had one pop up this
week from that time of my life. And I'm not
a big person, but I was probably fifteen pounds lighter
than I am right now, which on me is.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
A lot of weight.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I looked like a skeleton and it was so I
almost just broke down in tears seeing that because I
had to keep going in life, because I have responsibilities
and jobs and all the things. But my eyes in
my body were just screaming that I was in an
abusive situation, and like my eyes were vacant. I was
so incredibly skinny, and I worked until I literally couldn't.
(29:38):
Like it was just, you know, I had a massive
breakdown because for me, it was an experience where I
was in a romantic relationship. I had a work relationship
that was the same way, and a friendship. So I
was having the theme of narcissism yeah come up in
multiple things, but I think that happens to people, and
so I want to talk a little bit about who
this is happening to because the reason I want to
(29:59):
keep talking about this is I don't view myself as
a weak person. I don't view myself as a victim
or anything like that. I feel very capable in life,
but I was not, and I have also done a
ton of work on myself and I continue to always
have a growth mindset that almost made me more susceptible
to this kind of situation. And I want to talk
(30:22):
about that so that anyone else, either in this situation
or coming across people like that, don't end up where
I ended up. So can we talk about what you're
seeing in people that are victims of narcissistic abuse or
survivors or however you want to discribe.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, what does that typically look like?
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, so when you say that you were a shell
of your former self, I hear this all the time
and it breaks my heart. So that feeling is because
you know, when narcissists, what they do, their ultimate goal
is to gain total control over you. And so what
they do is they will very in a very subtle way.
You don't realize this is happening until later on, and
(31:00):
slowly and systematically kind of erode your self esteem one
layer at a time over time, till before you know it,
you are a total shell of your former self. You
have this trauma bond with them where you know that
they are horrible for you. You know this relationship is horrible,
and at the same time, the thought of leaving is
(31:23):
absolutely it's just so unbelievably frightening. And you have you've
been isolated, and you have been gaslets, so you don't
even trust your own perception of things or who you
can trust, and so it's very scary to leave, even
though you know it's not good for you. And I
think one of the things that I heard from from
a client once that I think really hits the nail
(31:45):
on the head for that kind of feeling afterwards, of
that empty shell. She said, I feel like a shell
of who I was. She said, I don't even know
what flavor ice cream I like, and it like it
sounds so ridiculous, but if you really think about it,
we all know what flavor ice cream you like. We
all know what kind of music we like. We know
what clothes we like to wear, we know what music
you know what movies we like. She had no sense
(32:06):
of identity, down to not even knowing the kind of
food she likes, because she was sold this narrative the
entire time of who she was supposed to be, down
to her choices of food. Right, So when you say that,
you know you view yourself as a strong person. One
of the biggest I think misconceptions of people who get
(32:28):
into these relationships is that narcissists go for, you know,
people with low self esteem, who are you know, kind
of just have no opinion, have no backbone. And then
that's not true. Narcissists go for people who are empathetic, sure,
because you know they want that from them, they crave
that they don't have that. But they go for people
(32:50):
who tend to be very successful in what they do,
very strong, have a lot of opinions, have a lot
to offer. You know, they don't go for weak people.
They go for the opposite. It makes number one, it
makes them look good. Number two. And this is the
part that really stilts this day. I always say, it
makes the hair on the backway necks sand up. And
(33:19):
this is the part that really still to this day,
I always say, makes the hair on the backwyecks end up.
The reason why is because if you have somebody who's
already so low about themselves, there's nothing for the narciss
to take away from them. There's no power or control
to gain from them. But if you have somebody who
is confident and reassured and successful and you know, loves
(33:42):
their life and is good at living their life, that's
way more to strip away and they get so much
more from that. So that's why they tend to go
for people like that. You don't go into these relationships
knowing they're abusive. That's the thing. What people don't realize.
These relationships don't start out like this. They know what
they're doing right. There's a deliberate effort to suck you in,
(34:04):
make you feel vulnerable, make you feel like you're special
and you're new. You're almost like they've selected you. They've
chosen you because there's something about you and it feels
really good, and all of us are susceptible to that.
So these relationships, it's not like somebody is being abusive
and you're willingly going blind into this. No, they're they're
not like that in the beginning, and by the time
(34:24):
you realize what's happening, you're not who you were. You're
that strong person. You're still there, but it's it's under
a lot of rubble. We have to like pull it out,
but you don't have that mindset to be able to
get out. If you did, then yeah, you'd get out,
no question about it. But the whole point of stripping
that away is so that when you realize this is
(34:45):
not healthy, you don't have the cognitive or emotional resources,
or financial resources or support so you able to pull
yourself out.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Well, you mentioned a couple of things I want to
touch on. One empathy, because I think that can be
very dangerous in this situation. And two, it's like, when
you realize you need to get out, the actual piece
of getting out, because I mean, all I can speak
about is my own experience. But I realized it very
early on, actually like this is not going to work.
So I would try to get out and then I
(35:14):
am very high in empathy, and the person would come
back and convince me, you know, no, it's different and whatever.
And like I said earlier in the podcast, you can't
fully grapple with or grasp the fact that they're not
telling the truth because, like I, that's just not how
my brain works, That's not what I'm doing on a
day to day basis. So I look at it through
(35:35):
the lens of how I would be operating. So if
I'm going to a person and I'm saying, hey, I
really want to work on this, I really want to
work this out.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I see what I did.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I'll work on that, and you know, really take some
steps to change. I mean it, I'm not just saying it,
but that wasn't my experience. And then every time I
would go back because it happened. I mean, I would
say for almost two years on and off and on
and off and on and off and on and off,
I was it was like taking a tick out of
you know, me, like you were saying, like, I just
(36:06):
became a shell even more of myself, and I became
addicted to the chemicals.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Of whatever that is.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
And I literally started I mean, I was diagnosing myself
with all this like love, addiction and all of these things.
And while maybe there were some traits of that happening
at the time, I don't identify with that out of
a relationship with narcissists.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Now that I have all these.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Other relationships, I'm like, oh wait, I was literally taking
so much ownership for all of these things being quote
unquote wrong with me. Yeah, that weren't actually even reality,
That's right. Can you describe that, like, was that typical?
Is that does normally happened?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Yes, one hundred percent when I was a hundred percent normal,
one hundred percent normal. So I always say this. You know,
on average it's about seven, seven or eight times before
somebody actually leads a relationship for good. So it's very
rare that somebody in a narcissistic abusive relationship is going
to leave and stay.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Well, they did not want you to, I mean, they
don't want you to give, but then they're back, that's right.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And it's not because they want you back because they
miss you or so they love you. It's because they
want to It's a couple of things. One, it's they
want they still want to have control and power over you, right,
they want to know that they can manipulate you at
any time. But also every time you go back, they
(37:23):
view that as almost permission, giving that the way they've
been acting, Well, then you came back.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So it's okay.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
In my eyes, it's okay. The empathetic person, especially for
people who are in the mental health field or for
people who just are always kind of looking about how
to grow and learn, it's so difficult and even as
a psychologist say this, For me to actually actually say,
for the worst to come out of my mouth that
they can't change, Yeah, takes so much to say that.
(37:54):
I don't say that casually at all, because that's why
I'm in this field. I think everybody can troubled. That's
why all job except for this, except for this, and
all I can do is work with the people who
are with them and in these relationships to help them
change and stay safe and leave the relationship. But what
you experienced, the blaming yourself and trying to figure out
it must be something wrong with you and diagnosing yourself
(38:17):
and not realizing that it's a reaction and appropriate reaction
to the abuse. I mean, you're constantly being in some way,
shape or form, being told you're not good enough, you're
not doing enough, you don't love enough, you don't care enough,
that they wouldn't have acted this way if you hadn't
(38:37):
done this, and that you guys need to communicate more. So,
even if it's not it's your fault, there's always this
underlying vibe of we need to make this better, we
need to make this work. It's you and I and
we have to fix this. And it's not a we thing.
It's not. It literally has nothing to do with you.
You were caught up in this, but it is not
(38:58):
because of you. The inability to see it for what
it is. It's almost like a fish and a fishball.
That's the analogy I give. You don't know you're in it.
You just know you don't feel right. You know this
isn't healthy. You can't identify it because you're so confused
because abusive people. This is the thing about narcissic abuse,
and this is why it feels addicting narcissistic abuse. In
(39:23):
part of that cycle is that they are purposely not
abusive all the time, outwardly abusive, but those stages of
being nice and loving and doting and apologetic and all
of that stuff is part of the abuse. It's not stages.
It's a cycle. So it's not like they were abusive
but now they're getting better. No, they're just in the
(39:43):
next stage of the cycle. So when that happens, it
creates this kind of chemical addiction that you're talking about.
It's this release of dopamine, these short spurts of dopamine.
You never know when you're going to get it, and
so you keep hanging in there. It's no. The model
is actually very similar to an addiction model. So if
you take gambling, for example, you never know what you're
(40:05):
going to get to. Same with a narcissistic partner. You
can try to predict what's going to set them off.
The whole thing about narcissistic abuse is there is no
rhyme or reason, and that's a purpose. If there was
a pattern to what would set them off, you'd figure
it out. But just when you think you figured it out,
they purposely change it up again, so you have no
(40:26):
idea what's going to set them off, which is why
you're always walking on eggshells, trying everything under the sun
to try to get them to stay not abusive, but
that is the abuse. And so if they are triggered
and they are set off, it must be you because
they're so nice to everybody else, and they've been so
nice for so long, so clearly they're trying, but then
(40:47):
they got set off because of something you apparently did,
and so it just keeps that cycle going of thinking
it's your fault when it's not well.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
And the other thing that I think is really interesting
is somehow they're always the vicar, even when they've done something. Yes, yeah,
and that that has been my experience a lot where
it's like there's a bomb dropped And this wasn't even
in my romantic relationship. This was in the other situations
I was talking about too. There was a bomb drop
that they create like that I really would have nothing
(41:16):
to do with, and then somehow the spin was that
I caused it, it was my fault. And then when
I have an issue with that, I'm playing the victim.
So it's like you really cannot win. And actually even
saying like you don't, it's like you almost don't even
want them to know that you're onto them, because that
(41:37):
all makes it worse.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
You don't that's right, Yeah, I tell people there, Yeah,
I mean the more you figure them out, Yeah, that's
the more they're losing control over you. Okay, So you
know that's why I tell people if they're leaving these relationships,
don't ever tell them that you're onto them. Don't call
them a narcissists, don't tell them that you're leaving, because one,
it makes you way more susceptible to manipulation to convince
(42:01):
you that you're wrong, and you don't want them to
know that they're losing control over you, because that's sometimes
I can escalate the behavior. So the more you figure
them out, the more they feel you're they're losing control
over you. And then that's when things like character assassination
comes in, where they start attacking your character, start talking
badly about you to other people, which they've probably already
(42:23):
laid the groundwork ahead of time, so that if things
blow up you do an ability, yeah, you look crazy,
you lose credibility, no one's going to believe you, you know,
So that starts to happen, and all of that is
so that they want you to respond to that. So
even in the most difficult scenarios where somebody is absolutely
(42:44):
bashing your character around the people that you know and
love with a narcissists, the worst thing to do is
try to defend yourself. Right, is to get your story
out there, because if the function of it is to
control you, the worst thing you can do is give
that control. So I always tell people, don't let them
(43:06):
know you're onto them, don't try to logic with them,
reason with them, respond to it. That's that's what they want.
And it's hard for us because when we're arguing with
someone and we're upset with someone, the natural reaction is
to talk it out.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Well, yeah, to take relationship.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
With right right, even if even if it pains you
and you don't want to be wrong right, Like we've
all been there, you still have that conversation because you
don't want the other person to hurt. And that that's
the difference with this.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I just want to say this, if anyone is listening
and they are identifying and they're stuck in this kind
of relationship, First of all, I have the most empathy,
sympathy compassion for anyone going through this because for me,
it was one of the hardest, if not the hardest
things of my life to go through and experience. And obviously,
(43:58):
if someone is saying lies about you or making up
stories or making you look bad, it's a natural human
response to want to defend.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
So it was.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
I mean, I think that was one of the most
difficult things for me ever, was to have to keep
my mouth shut and let someone continue to your assassinate me,
to be the bad guy in someone's stories, even when
that was impacting my life on such a big scale too.
You know, it's like systematically destroying so much that you've built,
but Also I had a knowing of if I speak out,
(44:29):
it's going to be worse, and like, you just can't
win that war, Like you can't win the war of
the kind of or you can't beat them at the
game that they created.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
So I was gonna say, you can win, but you, okay, most.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
People, you can't win in the way that you think
you would win. Yeah, you win by not participating, rather
than trying to correct them or get ahead or you know,
or or convince people. Otherwise, you actually win by because remember,
their goal isn't too assassinate your character. Your goal is
(45:02):
to assassinate your character so that they get a response
from you, so they get into your head, so they
get an emotional something out of you. Because what they've
been doing hasn't been working.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
It's almost like when you keep talking about.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Trying to control your narrative, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, and when you keep talking about they don't care
if it's good or bad. It's almost just like it's
like a hit, like a drug, Like that's what it
sounds like. It just sounds like they just need some
sort of hit from you. So the more you engage,
the more they get that that was something that really
helped me during the process, because again, you want to defend,
you want to stand up for yourself. Sure, I'm such
(45:43):
a justice person. I'm like, this isn't fair. You know,
that's a big thing for me. So that was what
made it so hard for me to leave these situations too.
But knowing that they were getting more from me responding
actually made it a little easier to be like, okay,
I'm stopping, like to make you actually quit because I
didn't want to give any thing anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
And it's it's hard because you know. The other thing too,
is that by by spreading these rumors and assassinating someone's character,
it's to ruin your credibility, but also so that nobody
will believe the abuse. You know, we see that a lot. Well,
you know she they've been laying the groundwork for years.
Well she she's she's got a lot of depression stuff
(46:22):
going on, or you know, she drinks a little too much,
and then they slowly lay those seeds so that when
they need to use it, it's already been planted.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
I mean, I feel like I could talk about this forever.
This is such a nuanced topic. I know, if anyone
is listening and they're really really just struggling in this situation.
What's the one thing you would say, like, what's the
first step to getting help for yourself or getting out
of the situation?
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Even Yeah, the first step I would say, if you
can find a therapist who is aware of these nuanced behaviors.
Do that. The second thing I would say is that
there is another side to this. Yes, it is very,
very difficult to get there, but I promise you that
once you see the blueprint of a narcissist's behavior, you
(47:07):
absolutely what, one hundred percent cannot unsee it. It is
impossible to unsee it, and so you will have this
moment of like this almost like you Actually, it's one
of the few things that I see with patients where
there's this definitive moment of oh my god, where all
the pieces start to fit together. You know, depression, anxiety,
(47:28):
it's kind of ongoing, it ebbs, it flows, But with this,
there's a very distinct moment and it's very traumatic. I'm
not saying this feels good, but it's this very specific
moment where you realize, oh my god, this is what
it is. Wait, okay, and then you start putting the
pieces together. It totally implodes your world. I mean, it's
very difficult when you come to that realization. But it's
(47:50):
also empowering at the same time, because now that you
can see these patterns, you can be a couple steps
ahead to be able to predict it and then be
able to respond in a much healthier way for yourself,
rather than trying to respond when you're when you're kind
of sucked into that web. It allows you to separate
yourself and look at the behaviors rather than be tangled
up in them.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Yes, you nailed it with Once you see it, you
can't and see it can And then you start seeing
it in.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Other places in your life or in people.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
You meet, and I'm like, now, literally I can shake
someone's hand and be like, hey, I'm walking away, yes,
because I know I cannot engage in those kind of
relationships and not go back to old behaviors that I
used to be in. They it's it's not good for me.
So I just have to not be in those kind
of relationships period.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
So and it's funny. I'll have people say too, you know, well,
they they take it to an extreme. They'll say, oh,
you're gonna be so excited. I went on a date,
but it was horrible. Why was it horrible? He opened
the door for me? What what? What he opened? He
held the door for me, Like I can't open my
own door, and like, okay, well, let's you know, that
(48:55):
doesn't mean they're a narcissists, right back it up a
little bit, right, So, but that's normal. It's normal to
go from when you've been so you know, in one
extreme for so long, it's very normal to go to
the other extreme. And that's why therapy is very helpful yea,
because it helps you move towards the middle. But it's
very common I see that for people to kind of
go from one extreme to the other. And understandably so,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
You're rereading everyone's a narcissist.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, your brain's trying to protect you because if, of
course doesn't want to go through that again.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yes, well, if you are listening and you are resonating
with anything we're saying. Doctor Zy also has her own
podcast and that's that narcissism, which would be also a
great place to start if you're struggling with figuring out
your situation because you can do it on your own.
It can be secret from your partner or whatever. Tell
us a little bit about what you talk about on
the podcast.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Yeah, So next up narcissism. We talk about, or I
should say, I talk about all different topics about narcissistic
abuse and narcissic personality. So are from financial abuse to
co parenting with a narcissist, to working with a narcissists,
how to navigate the relationships, behavioral strategies. I have a
lot of people come on that, you know, our experts
(50:00):
in certain areas of narcissistic abuse to really really kind
of just get into the nuances and the behaviors of it,
because it is, as you said, it's so specific and
really kind of get people on the right path as
to understanding exactly what this type of abuse is and
what it is not.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah, I think the hardest part about this kind of
abuse is it's so psychological, so it's often not even
you can't see it happening like from the outside all
the time. So that is but if you know it,
if you're in it, I do think you know it.
So yeah, check out that podcast. I'm also going to
put a link to your website because you have two
books that it might also be really good resources, so
(50:39):
you guys go check that out. And also Instagram and
social media. I think that you give such good soundbites
and little videos that have been very helpful for me
and say I will put all of that again in
the description of this podcast for you guys, Thank you
for coming on, thank.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
You for having me, Thank you for talking about this.
It's so important, so I hope this is helpful to
your listeners.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
For me too. Thank you guys for listening.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
Mm hm
Host
Kelly Henderson
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