Grief isn’t just about death—it shows up in breakups, job loss, identity shifts, and the quiet heartbreaks of everyday life. In this episode, Kelly sits down with grief expert and psychotherapist John Tsilimparis, author of The Magic in the Tragic, to talk about grief recovery, emotional healing, and why our culture gets grief all wrong.
They discuss how unresolved grief can fuel anxiety and panic, the power of mindfulness in emotional chaos, and practical tools for those navigating loss. If you’ve been taught to rush through grief or skip over heartbreak, John offers a completely different approach—one rooted in compassion, mindfulness, and emotional honesty. He shares tangible tools for navigating anxiety, moving through pain instead of avoiding it, and finding meaning in the mess—even when our culture doesn’t give us permission to grieve.
John's website: JohnTsilimparis.com
Book: The Magic In The Tragic
Socials: @jtsilimparis
Watch us on YouTube! (By clicking this)
Email us: theedge@velvetsedge.com
Follow the podcast on Instagram: @VelvetsEdgePodcast
HOST:
Kelly Henderson // @velvetsedge // velvetsedge.com
Follow Velvet's Edge on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/velvetsedge/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's
Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
John Stilimparus is a psychotherapist, author, and teacher. His work
focuses on grief, counseling, depression, addiction and recovery, anxiety disorders
like OCD, PTSD, phobias, and panic disorders. His new book,
The Magic in the Tragic is rewriting the script on
grief and discovering happiness in our darkest days. Hi John, Hello,
(00:34):
Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I want to start this conversation by just talking about
the fact that you're really addressing the conversation around grief
in such a different way than I've ever heard discussed publicly.
I think one of the most impactful things in your
book was just kind of breaking that down and helping
people to understand what grief really is. And I wanted
(00:58):
to start by just asking you, we will all experience
grief in our lives. Correct.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yes, no matter who you are, no matter how rich
you are, how famous you are, how young or good
looking you are, no matter how many people love you
or you love, You're going to experience grief.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Absolutely do you find that people only equate grief to death.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
They do, and that's why, you know, my goal in
writing the book was to help people to move towards
their grief as opposed to moving away from it and
seeing grief as any adversity that we face. You know,
we face a myriad of emotions all through the day,
and our lives are filled with you know, potential disappointments
like divorces, breakups, career disappointments, financial hardship, fallout from natural disasters.
(01:49):
So grief is really anything that is unresolved, like feelings
that cause us a lot of negativity and stuff. So
it doesn't have to be just from somebody that you lost.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Why do you think our culture downplays all the examples
that you just gave because I find maybe this is
just amongst my friend group, but I can't imagine that.
But I find that when someone goes through a breakup
or a loss, a job loss, anything like the things
you just described, that we kind of have this mentality
of Okay, well on to the next, get over that,
(02:22):
and we really downplay all of the emotions that come
with such a loss. Why do you think we do that?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
We do? And you know, we've always been a be
strong and move on culture. You know, that's been our
narrative for a long time. We're either afraid of wallowing
in the grief for too long and then that gets worse,
or we're afraid of being judged by it. And you know,
it's not the case with the whole world. There are
other countries that actually hold suffering and grief and high regard.
(02:53):
We don't do that. So it is curious about that.
It's almost taboo. So I hope that you know your
listeners who may also feel uncomfortable about talking about grief,
maybe at the end of this conversation might have a
different experience about their own grief. Cut themselves some slack.
And you know, for many people, when you do avoid
grief and you you know, brush it under the carpet
(03:14):
and stuff like that, it has the potential of getting worse. Right,
So it's much wiser to find a way to be
moved by your grief. And that's what the book's about.
It's not necessarily learning to like grief. Nobody will ever
like grief. We all do it, we all avoid it.
Nobody wants to suffer. You know, let's be clear about that,
but you can find, you know, meaning in your grief.
(03:36):
You can actually find purpose in it. Purpose and pain
has a lot of value. So the book helps you
to even find even beauty in your suffering.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, we mentioned the book is called The Magic and
the Tragic, which I think you kind of just summarized
some of the meaning behind that phrase. But I find
it to be such a beautiful phrase. Can you tell
the listeners a little bit more about what it means
to find the magic and the tragic?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, So when I was young, I experienced trauma in
my family, and then as a teenager there was tragedy.
I lost a sibling and it was a really difficult
time for me, and you know, I didn't have the
tools to deal with it, and I didn't really deal
with it until much later. But I found that before
the tragedy, I always had a curious relationship with the arts.
(04:22):
And I don't know why, but I had a little
bit of an aesthetic mindset when it came to music,
and music always made me feel good, even the sad kind.
So I learned that in my darkest moments after this tragedy,
if I listened to music and I paired it together,
somehow it started to change my thoughts and I started
to realize that this was, you know, a different experience
(04:44):
that I was giving myself. I was honoring my grief
in this way, and I was feeling like, whoever wrote
this music knows exactly what I'm feeling like. And it
felt like it legitimized my pain. It felt like it
validated my pain, and that was kind of the beginning
of and I use that often in my psychotherapy practice.
And remember, an aesthetic, Kelly, can be anything that evokes
(05:08):
positive emotion in you. It could be your love for gardening.
It could be your love for hard work. It could
be fitness, it could be any of the arts. Of course,
it could be spending time in nature. So it doesn't
have to be my path. But finding that aesthetic, finding
that beauty and pairing that in your dark times is
(05:28):
the way you build emotional resilience, which is converting pain
into thriving.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You know, as you were talking, I was just thinking
through the times of my life when what I would
consider I've been going through the grieving process. And I
think the reason the magic in the Tragic really struck
me so beautifully is that in those moments just like
you're talking about with your music. It was probably some
(05:56):
of the only times in my life that I actually
slowed down an to notice what was happening around. And
you know, when you're going through such a painful time,
everything it's almost visceral, you know, like the air you feel,
the air hits your body, you feel the way the
sun is shining. It's just like you feel everything. I'm
(06:17):
wondering when you were writing the book and you really
came up with the magic of the Tragic, was that
kind of what inspired you to want to help people
with the grief process and really trying to reframe how
we look at grief instead of running from it. Because
to me, I have found a deeper version of myself,
(06:37):
but also such beauty of life within those moments, as
painful as they.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Were, beautifully said. Yeah, again, if evolution didn't think that
grief had any purpose, it would have eliminated it a
long time ago. But it has stuck around for a
long time, so it has its benefits. And yeah, I
definitely used my own experience of putting intention to it
because I think to your point, you're saying that it
(07:02):
slowed you down, So I don't think that happiness or inspiration,
you know, just knocks on your door. I think you
have to create it in your life. You have to
find out what works for you. And so with that intention,
because grief will always be there, hopefully not every day,
but we always experience some discomfort throughout our lives, that
you can use that in a constructive way, that you
(07:24):
can use it. You can almost leverage your pain in
that way. And again a big taboo subject for people
because the reflex is to not think about it and
just to move past it as quickly as possible, But
there is so much value. Imagine if you could learn
how to live with as much faith and as much
confidence and maybe even the sorrowful of the sad as
(07:47):
you do with happy aspects of your life, it would
change your life drastically. And you know, one of the
exercises in the book that I use is called inspiration exposure,
which is where you learn to immerse yourself in your
darkest moments to these aesthetics whatever those are, these awe
inspiring moments or things in your life. And there are
(08:07):
studies out there that show that when they do expose
people to awe inducement and inspiration, it activates the part
of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, which is in
the back of your brain, just behind the forehead. And
when you activate that part of your brain, which is
your executive brain, your higher self, you inspire more motivation
(08:29):
to be hopeful, You inspire more motivation to be at
your best, It inspires more motivation to connect with others,
and it makes you be more self reflective. It makes
you be more introspective with yourself. So if you can
inspire that each time and you do that yourself, you've
(08:49):
got something going there. And so I always tell people
one of the best things you can do for yourself
is to learn how to give yourself uplifting chills as
often as possible.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I think this is such an important conversation because you know,
we always hear that saying hurt people hurt people, And
I think what I would equote that to as someone
who I openly talk about hurts in my life on
this podcast, And so I think, like we said, everyone
goes through hurts, and it is truly in how you
deal with it, because I would say, at this stage
(09:30):
of my life, the hurts in my life have actually
made me into a person I like way more than
I was before those hurts. But I think it's because
I don't know if you know anything about the enneagram,
I'm an ideogram for I'm very comfortable in dark emotions.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I can be okay and the high emotions and the
low emotions because I think they're all a part of
a process. And so I've never shied away from those
low emotions and that's been a gift in my life.
And it's exactly what you're speaking about, what you just said.
And then I also was just thinking, I mean, you're
a psychotherapist. I know you've worked in that field for
over thirty years, so I imagine you've seen people go
(10:10):
through every kind of loss, with every kind of grief.
Is there one thing that you would say people are
most surprised to learn about grief as they go through
these processes.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Well, let me just say first of all that there's
a new CDC report out there that depression has increased
in the last ten years sixty percent. And in twenty
twenty four twenty twenty five, when they started to gather
all the data in the fallout of the pandemic, they
saw that one in eight people ages twelve and up
in the US experienced some degree of depression, so we
(10:44):
know the numbers are up. I've seen in my private
practice that people's anxiety has spiked. I've seen again depression
on the rise. So you know, these are times that
also people are reaching out more to therapy, which is great,
but it's a different time. It's a different kind of chaos,
it's a different kind of uncertainty, not just you know,
the affairs around the world, but in this country as well.
(11:08):
So in my private practice, that's really what I see
is high anxiety and not being able to sort of
balance themselves out because there are no quick answers for
the uncertainties that we're living with right now.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Right, But doesn't that make total sense with the way
that our culture is currently set up. We don't talk
about exactly what you're talking about. We try to sidestep it,
We try to move past it, brush it under the rug,
buy another item off of Instagram to fix it, you know,
get more success, chase money, all of those things, and
none of that is going to remove the emotions all
(11:44):
that are happening inside of us.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Right and again, for most people, if you don't do that,
it can get worse. But we do have a familiarity
with our emotions and we learn not to be afraid
of it. And it's a process. It doesn't happen immediately.
Not everyone is going to, you know, be okay with
their sort of darker, sadder moods. But can you learn
how to be moved by it? Can you learn how
(12:08):
to be inspired by it? And also to understand that
the ancients also have been talking about this for years,
you know, they've been saying that, you know, that builds character,
and I think that it does. Is you just described.
I think that it makes people more compassionate. It's a
rite of passage. It's the way that you get vetted.
It's the way that it increases the sensitivity of your heart.
(12:29):
You're much more compassionate with yourself and others. So there's
so much value in that. But we do want to yeah,
we do want to take away the stigma and the
initial fear. Because it feels bad. I think people translated
as because it feels bad, I shouldn't be feeling this.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I've had a friend recently going through a pretty bad breakup,
and she's been one of the people that we were
talking about earlier that wants to rush through it, you know,
and there's so much shame I'm seeing come from the
fact that she's not over it yet, and I find
that to be so interesting. But in your book you
write about something you say you call it dignifying the suffering.
(13:09):
I just loved the way that was said, because what
I would want to say to my friend is you
are so justified in this moment and for her to
find this kind of strength in that in a different
way she's talking to herself than the shame and the
wanting to move past it. Can you talk a little
bit about dignifying the suffering?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, So if I learn how to not be afraid
of my suffering and try to hold it in high
regard as we just described, then maybe I'm not shaming
myself about it. I'm not rushing through it. I'm actually
dignifying it, which means I'm honoring it. I'm giving it
new meaning. And then little by little I start reassociating
(13:51):
my grief and my emotional pain with positive things like curiosity,
with wonderment, with personal growth, and maybe even with some spirituality.
You know, I always say that because I always try
to try to take the wu out of the wou
for people, because you know, some people are very sort
of opposed to hearing anything spiritual or religious. And I
(14:13):
would say I'm more spiritual than religious. But you know,
some people say that the divine or God or the
universe speaks to us through our aesthetics, speaks to us
through our arts and through nature and stuff. And so
if I can reassociate it to be something like that,
even a spiritual experience, that's giving it a little bit
of dignity, that's giving it some value and some importance
(14:35):
and a different kind of meaning instead of the knee
jer This is bad and it's negative, you know, or
I shouldn't be you know, there's a time frame, you know,
I need two weeks or two months, and after that
I should forget about it and move on. It doesn't
work that way.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Just yeah, Well, you mentioned the rise and anxiety and
all of the OCD, phobia's depression, all of that stuff
in the last ten years. And I'm just curious because
the more I've learned about trauma, the more I see
that it's all connected. And if we don't resolve our
trauma or face it work through the grief, it can
(15:13):
circulate much later in our lives in the form. For me,
it comes up with a lot of anxiety, like I'll
feel it in my body, or I can feel heavy
with depression, things like that. And for me now I
can know because I've done, you know, some work around
this stuff. There's something going on that I'm not addressing
or like what am I trying to side step or
put to the side. And so if you're seeing these
(15:34):
things in your practice, how much are you kind of
equating back to things people haven't dealt with for many
years or like childhood? You know, I know you mentioned
the traumatic events in your childhood and they came up
way later. Can you just talk a little bit more
about that the connection there.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I mean, my psychotherapy practice does respect being a good
historian and not only remembering what has happened to the
way I describe my story, but also doing the work
on that. You know, it's easy to say, oh, yeah,
I feel anxiety and this is kind of how I
felt when I was a kid, and I'm an adult now,
and maybe I shouldn't feel that. I try to change
(16:13):
people's dialogue and instead say, well, that means I need
a little more work on that, or I need to
be healed on that a little bit more. I need
to talk about that a little bit more. So, Yeah,
the trauma stays with us. And because trauma gets encoded
in the senses, not only in memory. It is manifested
sometimes in anxiety, in grief, in depression, and sometimes it's
(16:35):
manifested as panic, and sometimes with digestive problems and aches
and pains and things like that. So looking back and
you know, trying to understand your life looking backwards, but
of course living it moving forwards is a big part
of psychotherapy. And you know, a good psychotherapist will always
(16:56):
include that. It's not always the center, you know, the
center stage for psychotherapy, but it is very important to
go back and look at that. So thanks for bringing that.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Up, of course. And you mentioned spirituality, whatever that looks
like for people. I think religion is one way that
you could be connected to the tree outside for all
I care. You know, as long as you're connected to
something higher than yourself, I see it helping people typically.
And I know you have a podcast called Mindfulness for
the Soul, which I will want to talk about a
little bit more later. But what kind of role do
(17:30):
you find spirituality, mindfulness things like that to play during
seasons of loss or emotional chaos. How are those things
really helping us? From a psychotherapy standpoint.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I think that everybody needs to have something to believe in,
and statistically most of the world is religious and or
spiritual and knowing what's going to happen to you when
you die, or at least believing in something like that
and having that that kind of faith seems to be
a need for humans, however you slice it, or however
(18:05):
you look at it. So that gives people purpose, That
gives people hope, that gives people direction, It gives them guidance.
You know. That's why the twelve step programs in alcoholics
anonymous are so important, because it isn't so much staying
clean and sober and all that stuff, but it's really
the fellowship that you create and how you are in
(18:27):
service of others, and how that gives you, you know,
a place to go each day or a place to
tune into via zoom or however they do it. So
all of that creates purpose, connection and then it inspires
gratitude for a lot of people. So I think it's
a big part of it. It's never the main conversation
that I have with my patients, But if they do
(18:48):
have a sense of faith, I do want to I
want them to explain it to me and to tell
me how that can help them. And lots of times
people have detached from their sense of faith or their
religions for whatever reason, and I helped them to try
to come back to it in a way that maybe
feels safer this time, or maybe feels just a little
more palatable.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You mentioned hope, and I find that to be so
important during grief. Hope and connection. Those were the two
things that really stuck out to me in the last
bit that you said, because for me, during the times
I've talked about the times where I just felt like
I was at the bottom of the barrel, not going
to be able to climb out of it. One seeing
(19:30):
other people who had lived a similar circumstance via connection
that I had and survived and built a life again
gave me hope. And I think when you're in those times,
there's something that our brain needs there that says this
is not the end, this is not I'm not stuck
(19:52):
here forever. I can get out of this circumstance. They
did it, I can do it. Those kind of things.
Are you seeing that a lot in the ways that
people overcome grief and tragedy and things like that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I believe that human beings are wired for connection, but
whenever we have trauma and we're going through difficult times,
we've become rewired temporarily for protection, especially here in this
country given what we talked about before, where we have
that double standard. You know, you're either the life of
the party or you're a pessimist. So the natural reflex
(20:34):
when you're depressed is, you know, it's almost like a
voice telling you, don't reach out, don't let anybody see me,
stay in bed, don't get out of bed. Nothing matters,
nothing's important. So psychotherapy, connection, faith might pull us out
of that, even for one minute and just connect with
somebody and luckily that person is going to be compassionate
(20:55):
or they're going to be somebody that relates to what
you're going through, and then you know what that's going
to do to you. But most of the time that
uplifts you for a little while. You don't feel so alone,
You feel the universality of you know, I'm part of this,
maybe this brotherhood of wounded souls, and many, many of
us are like this all the time, but we don't
(21:15):
know it because we isolate. So I try to break
the cycle of isolation.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
If we have any listeners that are hearing like what
you just said, try to break the cycle of isolation.
I know you give a lot of tips in the
Book of Tangible Tips, and I love that, But would
there be one step that you would say to someone
listening who is resonating with the depression, the anxiety, being
stuck in that, being stuck in the isolation and not
(21:41):
really knowing exactly what the first step should be to
get themselves out of it or to find some of
the magic in the tragic like we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Well, obviously people lack structure when they're typically deeply depressed.
They have stopped doing their routines. They are not you know,
following through on their their tasks, their goals, their assignments
for the day, so to speak. So it's making sure
that people do have structure, making sure that people, despite
how they feel, they are still you know, fulfilling role
(22:12):
obligations and that they are you know, opening up the
shades and getting outside and being with people and talking
to people. But it's really reaching out that's probably what
I would say that most of people is to reach out.
You know, there's an exercise in the book that I
often give to people that really helps them a lot,
and especially if they're struggling with their depression and or
(22:33):
their grief and not giving themselves the compassion to feel
it is I ask people to write themselves a sympathy letter,
a very short one, a letter that you would probably
write to a friend that's going through a real big loss.
And in this letter, you're giving yourself the kind of compassion,
the space to feel the grief, the time to grief
(22:55):
for as long as you want, and you're saying I'm
sorry for what I've been through and what I've gone through,
and that everything that I feel is legitimate and it's okay,
and it's just part of life. There's a very powerful
process to be able to give that to yourself the
way that you might give that to someone else. People
don't do that for themselves. They are more apt to
(23:15):
be kinder and more compassionate with others than they are
with themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yes, that makes so much sense to me. Can you
tell the listeners a little bit about what you talk
about on the podcast and the kind of conversations you're having.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, so it's psychological tips for the day, it's daily reminders,
it's little exercises to stay present as often as possible,
try to stay as authentic as possible. There are you know,
episodes about mindfulness that you mentioned before. There could be
some relaxation techniques, some meditation, some progressive muscle relaxation, all
(23:51):
kinds of things to kind of get you through the day.
So it's sort of like they you know, your daily stop,
your daily break with intention to get some tips to
get you through the day.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Well, that also sounds like a really good place to
start if you're in the place of depression, anxiety, or
really struggling in some grief low moments. If you had
to say one thing that you really want the magic
in the tragic to bring to the country, to anyone,
to people. Because of the work you do and what
you're seeing out there with people, I do think you're
(24:23):
seeing kind of how much a lot of us are
just in the trenches right now. So what's your hope
for this book.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That, as I mentioned before, you're not afraid of your
grief moving forward, and that you know if you do
try to pair it with aspects of your life that
are beautiful or that do give you excitement and they
lift your spirit. You might start developing what I call
grief empowerment. You might walk around feeling a little bit
differently about who you are and what your feelings are
(24:52):
about you know, again, it's very natural to not want
to feel negative feelings. But if you can f find
a way to not fear it and hold it in
high regard as I mentioned before, and honor it, exalt
it as best you can, I think that you're building
stronger resilience. And remember, resilience isn't about having grit and
(25:14):
being let's say a warrior or something like that. It's
really about converting things. So instead of running from your grief,
can you find a way And I think that the
book explains that really well, can you find a way
to transform it into something different, something purposeful? And I
think that it'll help you to thrive better moving forward
(25:36):
in these difficult times.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Resilience does not mean grit. I saw you say that
on Good Morning America, and I thought that is what
we need to hear right now. Resilience doesn't mean it
has to be grit, because that's what we do, right,
we keep striving, we keep feeling like we need to
push through.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
And it was exhausting, right because then if after the
second or third day or fourth day, after you know,
my dark period begins, or I'm feeling depressed or sad
about something, if everyone's telling me that it is about grit,
and then i still can't make it go away because
I'm still feeling that way and I'd still need time
to process it. I'm going to feel weak, Yeah, feel
(26:15):
like a fool. I'm going to feel like I don't
get it. Everybody else does and I don't. So it's
not about grit and you know, being powerful and stuff
like that. So I'm glad you brought that up, because yeah,
I did mention that, and I hope everyone heard that. So,
you know, it's kind of like when people say, with
good intention, you know, you don't look depressed or what
(26:35):
do you have to be sad about? You know, our
immigrant parents tell us that all the time. You know,
you have a roof over your head. You know, you
you live in a in a nice place, or you
live in a in a city that has you know whatever,
resources and fun and you're safe and all that stuff.
But you know, despite the good intention, that's not the
thing you want to hear when you're feeling down, because
(26:57):
that's going to make you feel weak and it's going
to stignatize you.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So you try to make more depressed, more anxious exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, So I have to give it to myself. I
have to learn how to If I can't find people
to give me that kind of support, I can learn
how to do that. And by being sort of the
architect of how you know, my day is going to
progress despite my sad feelings, I again empowering myself, and
I think that's that's really what it's about, is I
(27:27):
don't give people advice. I create the conditions in therapy
for people to learn how to empower themselves and to
make decisions for themselves. That's really what therapy is for.
If you can empower yourself, then your life is going
to look vastly different.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I completely agree. Well, I will put the link for
John's podcast in the description of this podcast for you guys,
is there anywhere else that people can keep up with
you if they want to keep up with your work?
Speaker 3 (27:53):
On Instagram it's j Silimparus and then on TikTok it's
John Silimparus okay, and then my website is johnsilimpars dot com.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Perfect again. I will put all of that in the
description of this podcast for you guys, John, thank you
so much for being here. I really love this conversation.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Thank you. It's a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Thank you guys for listening.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,
where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a
little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty
and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.
Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's
Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
John Stilimparus is a psychotherapist, author, and teacher. His work
focuses on grief, counseling, depression, addiction and recovery, anxiety disorders
like OCD, PTSD, phobias, and panic disorders. His new book,
The Magic in the Tragic is rewriting the script on
grief and discovering happiness in our darkest days. Hi John, Hello,
(00:34):
Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I want to start this conversation by just talking about
the fact that you're really addressing the conversation around grief
in such a different way than I've ever heard discussed publicly.
I think one of the most impactful things in your
book was just kind of breaking that down and helping
people to understand what grief really is. And I wanted
(00:58):
to start by just asking you, we will all experience
grief in our lives. Correct.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yes, no matter who you are, no matter how rich
you are, how famous you are, how young or good
looking you are, no matter how many people love you
or you love, You're going to experience grief.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Absolutely do you find that people only equate grief to death.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
They do, and that's why, you know, my goal in
writing the book was to help people to move towards
their grief as opposed to moving away from it and
seeing grief as any adversity that we face. You know,
we face a myriad of emotions all through the day,
and our lives are filled with you know, potential disappointments
like divorces, breakups, career disappointments, financial hardship, fallout from natural disasters.
(01:49):
So grief is really anything that is unresolved, like feelings
that cause us a lot of negativity and stuff. So
it doesn't have to be just from somebody that you lost.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Why do you think our culture downplays all the examples
that you just gave because I find maybe this is
just amongst my friend group, but I can't imagine that.
But I find that when someone goes through a breakup
or a loss, a job loss, anything like the things
you just described, that we kind of have this mentality
of Okay, well on to the next, get over that,
(02:22):
and we really downplay all of the emotions that come
with such a loss. Why do you think we do that?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
We do? And you know, we've always been a be
strong and move on culture. You know, that's been our
narrative for a long time. We're either afraid of wallowing
in the grief for too long and then that gets worse,
or we're afraid of being judged by it. And you know,
it's not the case with the whole world. There are
other countries that actually hold suffering and grief and high regard.
(02:53):
We don't do that. So it is curious about that.
It's almost taboo. So I hope that you know your
listeners who may also feel uncomfortable about talking about grief,
maybe at the end of this conversation might have a
different experience about their own grief. Cut themselves some slack.
And you know, for many people, when you do avoid
grief and you you know, brush it under the carpet
(03:14):
and stuff like that, it has the potential of getting worse. Right,
So it's much wiser to find a way to be
moved by your grief. And that's what the book's about.
It's not necessarily learning to like grief. Nobody will ever
like grief. We all do it, we all avoid it.
Nobody wants to suffer. You know, let's be clear about that,
but you can find, you know, meaning in your grief.
(03:36):
You can actually find purpose in it. Purpose and pain
has a lot of value. So the book helps you
to even find even beauty in your suffering.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, we mentioned the book is called The Magic and
the Tragic, which I think you kind of just summarized
some of the meaning behind that phrase. But I find
it to be such a beautiful phrase. Can you tell
the listeners a little bit more about what it means
to find the magic and the tragic?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, So when I was young, I experienced trauma in
my family, and then as a teenager there was tragedy.
I lost a sibling and it was a really difficult
time for me, and you know, I didn't have the
tools to deal with it, and I didn't really deal
with it until much later. But I found that before
the tragedy, I always had a curious relationship with the arts.
(04:22):
And I don't know why, but I had a little
bit of an aesthetic mindset when it came to music,
and music always made me feel good, even the sad kind.
So I learned that in my darkest moments after this tragedy,
if I listened to music and I paired it together,
somehow it started to change my thoughts and I started
to realize that this was, you know, a different experience
(04:44):
that I was giving myself. I was honoring my grief
in this way, and I was feeling like, whoever wrote
this music knows exactly what I'm feeling like. And it
felt like it legitimized my pain. It felt like it
validated my pain, and that was kind of the beginning
of and I use that often in my psychotherapy practice.
And remember, an aesthetic, Kelly, can be anything that evokes
(05:08):
positive emotion in you. It could be your love for gardening.
It could be your love for hard work. It could
be fitness, it could be any of the arts. Of course,
it could be spending time in nature. So it doesn't
have to be my path. But finding that aesthetic, finding
that beauty and pairing that in your dark times is
(05:28):
the way you build emotional resilience, which is converting pain
into thriving.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You know, as you were talking, I was just thinking
through the times of my life when what I would
consider I've been going through the grieving process. And I
think the reason the magic in the Tragic really struck
me so beautifully is that in those moments just like
you're talking about with your music. It was probably some
(05:56):
of the only times in my life that I actually
slowed down an to notice what was happening around. And
you know, when you're going through such a painful time,
everything it's almost visceral, you know, like the air you feel,
the air hits your body, you feel the way the
sun is shining. It's just like you feel everything. I'm
(06:17):
wondering when you were writing the book and you really
came up with the magic of the Tragic, was that
kind of what inspired you to want to help people
with the grief process and really trying to reframe how
we look at grief instead of running from it. Because
to me, I have found a deeper version of myself,
(06:37):
but also such beauty of life within those moments, as
painful as they.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Were, beautifully said. Yeah, again, if evolution didn't think that
grief had any purpose, it would have eliminated it a
long time ago. But it has stuck around for a
long time, so it has its benefits. And yeah, I
definitely used my own experience of putting intention to it
because I think to your point, you're saying that it
(07:02):
slowed you down, So I don't think that happiness or inspiration,
you know, just knocks on your door. I think you
have to create it in your life. You have to
find out what works for you. And so with that intention,
because grief will always be there, hopefully not every day,
but we always experience some discomfort throughout our lives, that
you can use that in a constructive way, that you
(07:24):
can use it. You can almost leverage your pain in
that way. And again a big taboo subject for people
because the reflex is to not think about it and
just to move past it as quickly as possible, But
there is so much value. Imagine if you could learn
how to live with as much faith and as much
confidence and maybe even the sorrowful of the sad as
(07:47):
you do with happy aspects of your life, it would
change your life drastically. And you know, one of the
exercises in the book that I use is called inspiration exposure,
which is where you learn to immerse yourself in your
darkest moments to these aesthetics whatever those are, these awe
inspiring moments or things in your life. And there are
(08:07):
studies out there that show that when they do expose
people to awe inducement and inspiration, it activates the part
of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, which is in
the back of your brain, just behind the forehead. And
when you activate that part of your brain, which is
your executive brain, your higher self, you inspire more motivation
(08:29):
to be hopeful, You inspire more motivation to be at
your best, It inspires more motivation to connect with others,
and it makes you be more self reflective. It makes
you be more introspective with yourself. So if you can
inspire that each time and you do that yourself, you've
(08:49):
got something going there. And so I always tell people
one of the best things you can do for yourself
is to learn how to give yourself uplifting chills as
often as possible.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I think this is such an important conversation because you know,
we always hear that saying hurt people hurt people, And
I think what I would equote that to as someone
who I openly talk about hurts in my life on
this podcast, And so I think, like we said, everyone
goes through hurts, and it is truly in how you
deal with it, because I would say, at this stage
(09:30):
of my life, the hurts in my life have actually
made me into a person I like way more than
I was before those hurts. But I think it's because
I don't know if you know anything about the enneagram,
I'm an ideogram for I'm very comfortable in dark emotions.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I can be okay and the high emotions and the
low emotions because I think they're all a part of
a process. And so I've never shied away from those
low emotions and that's been a gift in my life.
And it's exactly what you're speaking about, what you just said.
And then I also was just thinking, I mean, you're
a psychotherapist. I know you've worked in that field for
over thirty years, so I imagine you've seen people go
(10:10):
through every kind of loss, with every kind of grief.
Is there one thing that you would say people are
most surprised to learn about grief as they go through
these processes.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Well, let me just say first of all that there's
a new CDC report out there that depression has increased
in the last ten years sixty percent. And in twenty
twenty four twenty twenty five, when they started to gather
all the data in the fallout of the pandemic, they
saw that one in eight people ages twelve and up
in the US experienced some degree of depression, so we
(10:44):
know the numbers are up. I've seen in my private
practice that people's anxiety has spiked. I've seen again depression
on the rise. So you know, these are times that
also people are reaching out more to therapy, which is great,
but it's a different time. It's a different kind of chaos,
it's a different kind of uncertainty, not just you know,
the affairs around the world, but in this country as well.
(11:08):
So in my private practice, that's really what I see
is high anxiety and not being able to sort of
balance themselves out because there are no quick answers for
the uncertainties that we're living with right now.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Right, But doesn't that make total sense with the way
that our culture is currently set up. We don't talk
about exactly what you're talking about. We try to sidestep it,
We try to move past it, brush it under the rug,
buy another item off of Instagram to fix it, you know,
get more success, chase money, all of those things, and
none of that is going to remove the emotions all
(11:44):
that are happening inside of us.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Right and again, for most people, if you don't do that,
it can get worse. But we do have a familiarity
with our emotions and we learn not to be afraid
of it. And it's a process. It doesn't happen immediately.
Not everyone is going to, you know, be okay with
their sort of darker, sadder moods. But can you learn
how to be moved by it? Can you learn how
(12:08):
to be inspired by it? And also to understand that
the ancients also have been talking about this for years,
you know, they've been saying that, you know, that builds character,
and I think that it does. Is you just described.
I think that it makes people more compassionate. It's a
rite of passage. It's the way that you get vetted.
It's the way that it increases the sensitivity of your heart.
(12:29):
You're much more compassionate with yourself and others. So there's
so much value in that. But we do want to yeah,
we do want to take away the stigma and the
initial fear. Because it feels bad. I think people translated
as because it feels bad, I shouldn't be feeling this.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I've had a friend recently going through a pretty bad breakup,
and she's been one of the people that we were
talking about earlier that wants to rush through it, you know,
and there's so much shame I'm seeing come from the
fact that she's not over it yet, and I find
that to be so interesting. But in your book you
write about something you say you call it dignifying the suffering.
(13:09):
I just loved the way that was said, because what
I would want to say to my friend is you
are so justified in this moment and for her to
find this kind of strength in that in a different
way she's talking to herself than the shame and the
wanting to move past it. Can you talk a little
bit about dignifying the suffering?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, So if I learn how to not be afraid
of my suffering and try to hold it in high
regard as we just described, then maybe I'm not shaming
myself about it. I'm not rushing through it. I'm actually
dignifying it, which means I'm honoring it. I'm giving it
new meaning. And then little by little I start reassociating
(13:51):
my grief and my emotional pain with positive things like curiosity,
with wonderment, with personal growth, and maybe even with some spirituality.
You know, I always say that because I always try
to try to take the wu out of the wou
for people, because you know, some people are very sort
of opposed to hearing anything spiritual or religious. And I
(14:13):
would say I'm more spiritual than religious. But you know,
some people say that the divine or God or the
universe speaks to us through our aesthetics, speaks to us
through our arts and through nature and stuff. And so
if I can reassociate it to be something like that,
even a spiritual experience, that's giving it a little bit
of dignity, that's giving it some value and some importance
(14:35):
and a different kind of meaning instead of the knee
jer This is bad and it's negative, you know, or
I shouldn't be you know, there's a time frame, you know,
I need two weeks or two months, and after that
I should forget about it and move on. It doesn't
work that way.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Just yeah, Well, you mentioned the rise and anxiety and
all of the OCD, phobia's depression, all of that stuff
in the last ten years. And I'm just curious because
the more I've learned about trauma, the more I see
that it's all connected. And if we don't resolve our
trauma or face it work through the grief, it can
(15:13):
circulate much later in our lives in the form. For me,
it comes up with a lot of anxiety, like I'll
feel it in my body, or I can feel heavy
with depression, things like that. And for me now I
can know because I've done, you know, some work around
this stuff. There's something going on that I'm not addressing
or like what am I trying to side step or
put to the side. And so if you're seeing these
(15:34):
things in your practice, how much are you kind of
equating back to things people haven't dealt with for many
years or like childhood? You know, I know you mentioned
the traumatic events in your childhood and they came up
way later. Can you just talk a little bit more
about that the connection there.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I mean, my psychotherapy practice does respect being a good
historian and not only remembering what has happened to the
way I describe my story, but also doing the work
on that. You know, it's easy to say, oh, yeah,
I feel anxiety and this is kind of how I
felt when I was a kid, and I'm an adult now,
and maybe I shouldn't feel that. I try to change
(16:13):
people's dialogue and instead say, well, that means I need
a little more work on that, or I need to
be healed on that a little bit more. I need
to talk about that a little bit more. So, Yeah,
the trauma stays with us. And because trauma gets encoded
in the senses, not only in memory. It is manifested
sometimes in anxiety, in grief, in depression, and sometimes it's
(16:35):
manifested as panic, and sometimes with digestive problems and aches
and pains and things like that. So looking back and
you know, trying to understand your life looking backwards, but
of course living it moving forwards is a big part
of psychotherapy. And you know, a good psychotherapist will always
(16:56):
include that. It's not always the center, you know, the
center stage for psychotherapy, but it is very important to
go back and look at that. So thanks for bringing that.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Up, of course. And you mentioned spirituality, whatever that looks
like for people. I think religion is one way that
you could be connected to the tree outside for all
I care. You know, as long as you're connected to
something higher than yourself, I see it helping people typically.
And I know you have a podcast called Mindfulness for
the Soul, which I will want to talk about a
little bit more later. But what kind of role do
(17:30):
you find spirituality, mindfulness things like that to play during
seasons of loss or emotional chaos. How are those things
really helping us? From a psychotherapy standpoint.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I think that everybody needs to have something to believe in,
and statistically most of the world is religious and or
spiritual and knowing what's going to happen to you when
you die, or at least believing in something like that
and having that that kind of faith seems to be
a need for humans, however you slice it, or however
(18:05):
you look at it. So that gives people purpose, That
gives people hope, that gives people direction, It gives them guidance.
You know. That's why the twelve step programs in alcoholics
anonymous are so important, because it isn't so much staying
clean and sober and all that stuff, but it's really
the fellowship that you create and how you are in
(18:27):
service of others, and how that gives you, you know,
a place to go each day or a place to
tune into via zoom or however they do it. So
all of that creates purpose, connection and then it inspires
gratitude for a lot of people. So I think it's
a big part of it. It's never the main conversation
that I have with my patients, But if they do
(18:48):
have a sense of faith, I do want to I
want them to explain it to me and to tell
me how that can help them. And lots of times
people have detached from their sense of faith or their
religions for whatever reason, and I helped them to try
to come back to it in a way that maybe
feels safer this time, or maybe feels just a little
more palatable.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You mentioned hope, and I find that to be so
important during grief. Hope and connection. Those were the two
things that really stuck out to me in the last
bit that you said, because for me, during the times
I've talked about the times where I just felt like
I was at the bottom of the barrel, not going
to be able to climb out of it. One seeing
(19:30):
other people who had lived a similar circumstance via connection
that I had and survived and built a life again
gave me hope. And I think when you're in those times,
there's something that our brain needs there that says this
is not the end, this is not I'm not stuck
(19:52):
here forever. I can get out of this circumstance. They
did it, I can do it. Those kind of things.
Are you seeing that a lot in the ways that
people overcome grief and tragedy and things like that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I believe that human beings are wired for connection, but
whenever we have trauma and we're going through difficult times,
we've become rewired temporarily for protection, especially here in this
country given what we talked about before, where we have
that double standard. You know, you're either the life of
the party or you're a pessimist. So the natural reflex
(20:34):
when you're depressed is, you know, it's almost like a
voice telling you, don't reach out, don't let anybody see me,
stay in bed, don't get out of bed. Nothing matters,
nothing's important. So psychotherapy, connection, faith might pull us out
of that, even for one minute and just connect with
somebody and luckily that person is going to be compassionate
(20:55):
or they're going to be somebody that relates to what
you're going through, and then you know what that's going
to do to you. But most of the time that
uplifts you for a little while. You don't feel so alone,
You feel the universality of you know, I'm part of this,
maybe this brotherhood of wounded souls, and many, many of
us are like this all the time, but we don't
(21:15):
know it because we isolate. So I try to break
the cycle of isolation.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
If we have any listeners that are hearing like what
you just said, try to break the cycle of isolation.
I know you give a lot of tips in the
Book of Tangible Tips, and I love that, But would
there be one step that you would say to someone
listening who is resonating with the depression, the anxiety, being
stuck in that, being stuck in the isolation and not
(21:41):
really knowing exactly what the first step should be to
get themselves out of it or to find some of
the magic in the tragic like we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Well, obviously people lack structure when they're typically deeply depressed.
They have stopped doing their routines. They are not you know,
following through on their their tasks, their goals, their assignments
for the day, so to speak. So it's making sure
that people do have structure, making sure that people, despite
how they feel, they are still you know, fulfilling role
(22:12):
obligations and that they are you know, opening up the
shades and getting outside and being with people and talking
to people. But it's really reaching out that's probably what
I would say that most of people is to reach out.
You know, there's an exercise in the book that I
often give to people that really helps them a lot,
and especially if they're struggling with their depression and or
(22:33):
their grief and not giving themselves the compassion to feel
it is I ask people to write themselves a sympathy letter,
a very short one, a letter that you would probably
write to a friend that's going through a real big loss.
And in this letter, you're giving yourself the kind of compassion,
the space to feel the grief, the time to grief
(22:55):
for as long as you want, and you're saying I'm
sorry for what I've been through and what I've gone through,
and that everything that I feel is legitimate and it's okay,
and it's just part of life. There's a very powerful
process to be able to give that to yourself the
way that you might give that to someone else. People
don't do that for themselves. They are more apt to
(23:15):
be kinder and more compassionate with others than they are
with themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yes, that makes so much sense to me. Can you
tell the listeners a little bit about what you talk
about on the podcast and the kind of conversations you're having.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, so it's psychological tips for the day, it's daily reminders,
it's little exercises to stay present as often as possible,
try to stay as authentic as possible. There are you know,
episodes about mindfulness that you mentioned before. There could be
some relaxation techniques, some meditation, some progressive muscle relaxation, all
(23:51):
kinds of things to kind of get you through the day.
So it's sort of like they you know, your daily stop,
your daily break with intention to get some tips to
get you through the day.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Well, that also sounds like a really good place to
start if you're in the place of depression, anxiety, or
really struggling in some grief low moments. If you had
to say one thing that you really want the magic
in the tragic to bring to the country, to anyone,
to people. Because of the work you do and what
you're seeing out there with people, I do think you're
(24:23):
seeing kind of how much a lot of us are
just in the trenches right now. So what's your hope
for this book.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That, as I mentioned before, you're not afraid of your
grief moving forward, and that you know if you do
try to pair it with aspects of your life that
are beautiful or that do give you excitement and they
lift your spirit. You might start developing what I call
grief empowerment. You might walk around feeling a little bit
differently about who you are and what your feelings are
(24:52):
about you know, again, it's very natural to not want
to feel negative feelings. But if you can f find
a way to not fear it and hold it in
high regard as I mentioned before, and honor it, exalt
it as best you can, I think that you're building
stronger resilience. And remember, resilience isn't about having grit and
(25:14):
being let's say a warrior or something like that. It's
really about converting things. So instead of running from your grief,
can you find a way And I think that the
book explains that really well, can you find a way
to transform it into something different, something purposeful? And I
think that it'll help you to thrive better moving forward
(25:36):
in these difficult times.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Resilience does not mean grit. I saw you say that
on Good Morning America, and I thought that is what
we need to hear right now. Resilience doesn't mean it
has to be grit, because that's what we do, right,
we keep striving, we keep feeling like we need to
push through.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
And it was exhausting, right because then if after the
second or third day or fourth day, after you know,
my dark period begins, or I'm feeling depressed or sad
about something, if everyone's telling me that it is about grit,
and then i still can't make it go away because
I'm still feeling that way and I'd still need time
to process it. I'm going to feel weak, Yeah, feel
(26:15):
like a fool. I'm going to feel like I don't
get it. Everybody else does and I don't. So it's
not about grit and you know, being powerful and stuff
like that. So I'm glad you brought that up, because yeah,
I did mention that, and I hope everyone heard that. So,
you know, it's kind of like when people say, with
good intention, you know, you don't look depressed or what
(26:35):
do you have to be sad about? You know, our
immigrant parents tell us that all the time. You know,
you have a roof over your head. You know, you
you live in a in a nice place, or you
live in a in a city that has you know whatever,
resources and fun and you're safe and all that stuff.
But you know, despite the good intention, that's not the
thing you want to hear when you're feeling down, because
(26:57):
that's going to make you feel weak and it's going
to stignatize you.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So you try to make more depressed, more anxious exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, So I have to give it to myself. I
have to learn how to If I can't find people
to give me that kind of support, I can learn
how to do that. And by being sort of the
architect of how you know, my day is going to
progress despite my sad feelings, I again empowering myself, and
I think that's that's really what it's about, is I
(27:27):
don't give people advice. I create the conditions in therapy
for people to learn how to empower themselves and to
make decisions for themselves. That's really what therapy is for.
If you can empower yourself, then your life is going
to look vastly different.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I completely agree. Well, I will put the link for
John's podcast in the description of this podcast for you guys,
is there anywhere else that people can keep up with
you if they want to keep up with your work?
Speaker 3 (27:53):
On Instagram it's j Silimparus and then on TikTok it's
John Silimparus okay, and then my website is johnsilimpars dot com.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Perfect again. I will put all of that in the
description of this podcast for you guys, John, thank you
so much for being here. I really love this conversation.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Thank you. It's a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Thank you guys for listening.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,
where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a
little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty
and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Kelly Henderson
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.