Reserve Bank governor Adrian Orr has resigned suddenly - but why aren't we being told why he's moved on so swiftly? Also, what's his legacy in the role?
And the stories keep coming on the government's cheaper free lunch in schools programme. Are these lunches up to scratch, and was the Prime Minister right to say unhappy parents can send their kids to school with a marmite sandwich and an apple?
Labour's health and Wellington issues spokeswoman Ayesha Verrall and National's Otaki MP Tim Costley joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Ban, can you make your decisions?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
The politics Thursday? This week is Labour's health and Wellington's
issues spokes person spokeswoman is this spokespersonal spokesman?
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Either of those are fine and I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Next, I've just got to make clear it I've been
you know, I've got to clear up, make sure I
get it right. Bi Cheveril morning morning. How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah? Very well, thank you, good to be here, Good.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
To have you here at National's o techy MP Tim
Costly said, once, how are you well?
Speaker 5 (00:55):
Say I and you normally call me what you want,
so you call me anything today. But no, I'm great
and it's good to be with you on a beautiful,
typically sunny day.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
You copped it from the on the show once you
just keep repeating it. Have I affected you?
Speaker 5 (01:08):
I can tell it was more than once, but I
just repeat myself.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I'm not doing it well. See I'm being good.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Covering the big issues.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
That's good to see. Okay, I want to let's start
with the big issues, because you'll know exactly what's going
I'm going to start with with Tim because I'm confused
by this whole thing, and I actually know that he'll
know the answer. Let's start hearing you. Let's start Adrian
or the governor of the Reserve Bank has resigned suddenly
two years into his second five year term. But we
(01:39):
really don't know, well most of us don't know. Tim,
you know, tell us why.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
I love your confidence and me nake it really warms
my heart. Look, I'm not even going to pretend that
I know more than probably what you or anyone listening.
And I know that he resigned yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
And soon she must see something happening.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
Well, look, I'm not proving anything, and I think you'll
hear it from the Prime Minister of the Minister of
Finance if there is. But see, we've got confidence in
the Reserve Bank moving forward. You know it's in the
economies starting to show the right science. Interest rates are
coming down. That makes a real difference to Keili's at
the end of the week.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I sure have you heard anything? I mean, you know
he was in pretty good with you guys. So did
he ring you up and say ah, I've got a
bit of a problem. They won't make me coffee anymore,
so I'm out of here. I mean, what have you heard?
Speaker 4 (02:27):
No, I haven't. I just know what's been reported that
there hasn't been a reason given. I think it's important
to remember all people who are in these high level
senior appointments are people, and things can happen in people's
lives that we might not know about. So I'm not
going to leap in with my speculation except to you know,
he was governor of the Reserve Bank during unprecedented times
(02:51):
in terms of the pandemic and the financial environment during
that time, and you know, I wish him well for
the future.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I should even, you know, as diplomatic as you want
to be, you must look back at the times that
he was governed and say, gosh, just keep printing money. Gosh,
he caused us a few problems that we've got now.
Could have he done it any better?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Well, I think it's with many of the things that
happened during that time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. And
also I'd say that I don't know, I haven't read
any comparisons of his management vis a VI you know,
other central bank governors around the world to say that
the way he did his job was particularly different from others,
(03:37):
you know. So I think we've just got to recognize
it was incredibly, incredibly tough time and wishing well for
the future.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And we know that this position is supposed to be
non political, but we know that Nikola Willis, when she
is an opposition was scathing on him. She was scathing
on him. So obviously this was never going to work.
Why did it take so long?
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Look, I don't know if I characterize it as a
you know, inevitable thing that took too long. I think
what was really the key focus for probably Nicola as
the minister, but for us as a government, is getting
the economy sorted right and to be fear to the
Reserve Bank or the former Reserve Bank governor. It wasn't
just things like counditative easing printing money that took out
economy to the to the set.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
It was.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
It was the amount of deent. It was that it
was the way that money was spent once it was
printed that was wasteful. Actually, that's what we've been focused on,
and it's really pleasing to see what interest rates have
come down now one point seventy five percent. There's almost
two hundred bucks a week extra that that that key
was having the back pocket off the average mortgage, So
that actually makes a real difference. So I think you've
seen actually that over the last few years. Things have
(04:44):
been going in the right direction, over the last a
year and a half. And I've got full confidence and
where the you know, the temporary governor there is zerve
Bank will take us and moving forward.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
I should Someone's come down on them, haven't they. I mean,
someone's come down on them and said, hey, this is
going to be happened this way, or somebody. I mean,
I've met him once, spent an hour with him, Understand,
Adrian or I'm talking about he's a pretty staunch Kiwi bloke.
It's going to be He's not going to be persuaded
to change his mind on anything. Look, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
I don't know, So I don't want to fuel any
particular theory as to why. But what I would say,
in contrast to what Term has just said there is
I don't think you can do what Nikola Willis has
did during her time and opposition which has tried to
make a political enemy of him to be incredibly harsh
(05:35):
of of his work during the time she was in opposition,
take credit for the actions of the bank more recently
while she's in government in terms of bringing down inflation,
and still maintain that monetary policy is independent of government.
So you can't have it both ways.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Are these position really sort of non political wise? I
mean we see it all the time. We see police
commissioners design, we see changes, hospital CEOs resign. I mean
they're supposed to be non political, but we know they're not.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
We have seen an awful lot recently under this this government.
I mean, you know, in the health sector, we've seen
the entire Board of Health New Zealand, the Director General,
the Director of Public Health, the CEO of Health New Zealand,
and half of the tier of management beneath that go
here's another departure. So I think there is something to
(06:36):
be said about the sheer number of people, and I
think that does if when it goes too far, pose
a risk to the neutrality and independence of the public
public service. So I'd put it, I'd put it there
that I don't think it's desirable that these roles get
overly politicized. And there's been an awful lot of departures lately.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Well, I guess you know. The point I would make is, yeah,
people might ask some questions when you know, the Public
Service Commissioner moves out of the role and pops up
in a labor pat event straight away. But actually I
think it does a disservice to the amazing number of
public servants we have in this country that do work
a politically. I've served in the Defense Force and seen
what people do there, but across so many government departments,
(07:17):
and they actually do a remarkable job of getting up
in the morning, serving at the direction of the government
of the day to do the best they can for
New Zealand. And I think I would hate to see
that whittle down to a few examples of where people
have Maybe do you.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Want to just go back to what you said about
Peter Hughes and explain why that's a problem for you,
Because of course, when people resign their roles, they're allowed
to come and talk to anyone and of course, you know,
I'm sure people from the Defense Force could go and
talk to the National Party about their experiences after they
have held public office. What's wrong with that?
Speaker 5 (07:53):
It's very very defensive, No what I said was people
might ask questions when things like that happened, because don't
let me finish, because you have just said that someone's
resigning from Health and Z means they must have been politicized.
That's huge saying that these people left because what they
weren't aligned with the National Party and they were aligned
with yours government, so they had to leave. What I'm
saying is I can understand why in some instances people
(08:15):
might ask questions when something really overt happens. But actually
what I said was there was a huge number of
people that get up in the morning, they work for
the best of New Zealand, and that's what I think
we should be taken out of this.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, I think it is legitimate to ask questions about
the huge number of turnover in the health sector. And actually,
more important than the question of neutrality is the fact
there's actually no one who can run the ship at
the moment. That's the issue, the amount of chaos that's
been caused in the health sector by these departures, which
ultimately I think will be a decision the nation.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
Well, we've just plugged up the holes in the ship.
And you know, remember this was a health system in crisis,
den I actually might but a health system and crisis
under the under ushall when she was the minister. Now,
actually we've seen you know, huge numbers of more than
two thousand extra nurses come on. We've seen targets put
back to get wake times down. And remember what emergency
departments were like. So I'm not going to say here
(09:06):
and pretend that.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
None of them have them through.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Well, I can tell you what I hear people that
have been.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
But there's no improvement in health system performance.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Labour's Health and Willing to Issue spokeswoman is Severil in
the studio with us as well as National's O TACKI
MP tem costly. Let's talk school lunches, Tim, I'm coming
to you first. Okay, have you ever tried one? Uh?
No school?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Didn't you go to the one and eat the element
I'm not going to eat someone else's lunch.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
No. No.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
But they had the big promo Parliament where they brought
them all round and they had all the cameras and
all the fan fee.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
You didn't get invited to that and invited to that one? No,
I haven't any of them. Look, I speak to our
local school. So the issue for me is in and
most schools get them, and company they don't. Most schools
don't don't get them, and that's one of the problems.
We've got genuine kids and with genuine need that would
benefit from them, that aren't gidding them. And then I've
been to some schools in Fena weare where not only
(10:04):
does every student get them and they don't all need them,
but some teachers are getting them as well, And that
was never the intent of the party. I don't believe.
So no, look and all but two of my schools
are really happy with what they're getting because that they're
getting a great local provider. Two of them just wanted
They're like, oh, it's okay, we just prefer to change
to this other provider because it's more convenient for us
to get it from a living well.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
It's all been about the money, hasn't it. I mean,
trying to get the right deal at the right price
and knowledge.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Most for that money. That's right, That's how I would categoriz.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
That's right. But there's it's I should it's been a
bit of a debarkle.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Really hasn't a cherished program that was supporting good nutrition
for kids in need as well as the employment outcomes
for school communities because the way we had set up
the policy, you know, often the mums and dads were
able to get jobs being part of the provision, or
(10:56):
one of my cousins was providing it out of his
supermarket that he that he runs, so smaller set of
providers were providing under us and the product was a
park while as a as a result. And I think
it's quite telling, isn't it. This government spoke a very
big game about being managers and able to get good
managers and able to get better value than we did.
(11:17):
But it seems like this has just really proved that
that is not the case, and it's been a total
total shambles, thirteen days of butter, chicken, burnt food, non delivery.
It is. I really think it's put paid to the
idea of the government as good managers of public services.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Are you concerned that you've gone to this really big
company and the money is going overseas and it's not
performing and it's not working.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
So, I mean, I think that's pretty roast tented view
of the past, right, And let's start with the fundamentals.
This program was not funded by labor into this year.
So it was not there was no money none whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And how budget's work.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Yeah, I really understand how they were not. There are
no there are four cases for a bunch of stuff
and you had this cut off. We have brought back
the funding and you've got the opportunity usend the local provider.
Schools that were already using local providers were able to
stay with them. That's why my two schools want to
opt into it now because they weren't with it previously.
So schools that were already doing that had the option
(12:16):
to continue. But let's be clear, this should not be
a program to create jobs. This is not a should
not be approble not just feed everyone, because this was
fundamentally about helping kids that had a genuine need. It
came about during the sort of COVID period, helping those
with genuine need to make sure they could feed, be
fed because we know they're going to learn better. That's
what this was about. But it was too broad. It
(12:38):
missed people with genuine need, It hit people that didn't
need the support.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And you've seen the photos, right, you must have seen it.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Well, they're so eager to share them. They've shared photos
from twenty twenty two under the labor program. They're just
going to criticize anything no matter what it says. So
they've shared the.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Wrong So you haven't tried one, tasted one?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
No, I've never eaten one.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
And the teachers who are talking out about this are
they making that story up to that Lunches haven't been
delivered on time. I haven't been suitable, say nails all
the several days.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Place alted plasteric.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
I saw the one photo of the plastic, but I
also saw on criticizing something else which turned out to
be an old photo. So I believe there are genuine
cases where where where there are teething problems and we
want to improve it in terms of them being late.
The stats I shaws saw saw that are all about
ninety nine percent on time.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
There was one particular day apparently no no, no, I like.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
On Monday it was nineteen nine percent. I think last
week there was days where it was one hundred percent.
But of course there had probably been teething problems, and
let's not pretend that went under the last one. It
took a long time for some of my local schools
and live in to be able to set up their
own local program of course we want to do better.
We always want to do better, but we also want
to make sure we do it responsible, responsibly to get
to help as many kids with genuine need where we
(13:50):
can make a difference.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
What did you think when the Prime Minister said if
you don't like the idea of give your kids of
my Mite sandwich and an apple, which I agree with him.
I agree that you know my might sandwich is all
I had, or Veggie might sandwich with letters and an apple?
What's wrong with that?
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Oh? From trying to time, mar Might sandwich never hurt anybody.
But I think we know that our kids have well.
We're one of the third most of beest countries in
the world, so overall, in the long term we do
want to be providing kids with nutritious, nutritious food, and
the program as it was before, achieved that. I think
one of the important things for Christopher Laxon is.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Coming from Marmite sandwiches.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Though is it, well, what's the bread made out of?
Speaker 5 (14:33):
I don't think often. Look, I grew up on sandwiches.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
And do you want to get into a debate about nutrition.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
I'd love to get into a debate about I think
it's actually, the right people have to a school lunch
come from a responsibility that we have.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And you will come back.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think the thing to understand about one of the
changes in our community is now more than half the
kids that live in poverty their parents work. So programs
like this are incredibly important for supporting working peace people
to be able to look after their kids. And we
may not like that as a country, but that is
the reality of people's wages today. This is doing an
(15:13):
incredibly important job for working people, sadly who need the
support for their kids to get to be fed properly.
That's the situation our country is in. And so making
it sound like it's a matter of choice that parents
could just it's just that they never thought of a
marmite sandwich and the Prime Minister needed to remind them
(15:34):
that that was an option. I think that is incredibly
condescending quickly because I do.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
Want to move on to them, and look, I won't
to on the point. Look, you know, I think we
have a responsibility before we have a right. We have
responsibility to look after our kids, not just our own,
but those in our community. And when it comes to it,
the government has to at times step in to do that,
So we should be targeting that as much as we
can to get to those with most needs. Yes, they
are working poor, that's terrible, but that's why our work
(16:00):
to reduce the cost of living to greater economy is
just so important.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So you're saying that we're giving too many children free lunches.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
I think some of the lunches under the old program,
we're going to places where what there wasn't genuine need,
and there were some kids with genuine need who are
missing out.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, but the numbers are increased under your under your change.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
That's that's the point is it's about getting it to
more people. It is because there are like I said,
told me that, hold on.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Hold, I'm just confused here. I might not be the
most smartest guy in the world. You're saying you don't
want to have so many, but you're actually good because
I wanted.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
To see a more targeted approach, because, like I said
at the start, there are schools and carpity with kids
with genuine need, the kind that I she was just
speaking about that weren't getting anything. I would rather that
we targeted this so we could feed more people and
therefore help more people. With genuine need.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Let's move on to the biggest story of the week
Wellington and Wellington this week anyway, Wellington Water. It's a
reporter has found that the organization was spending up to
three times as much as comparable counsels on pipe repairs.
There as much and there were and such, there was
little oversight of finances even was talked about. I share
(17:09):
there's been the scandal after scandal with Wellington Water.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
What is the answer, Well, as it's currently constituted, it
cannot go on, and were our government's water reforms to continue,
it would not be there. There would be a new
a new body and new government.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And the new coalition's got one of those plans too.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yes, well it was not there. They they have delayed
all of that work by deciding they wanted to throw
all of that those reforms out. So currently we are
stuck with Wellington Water and cleaning up the mess that
that's going on going on there. I do think, I mean,
you're totally right to go to the background number of issues,
including it goes back. Was it two or three years
(17:54):
ago we had the fluoride. They're not even putting fluoride
in the water properly, which made me and.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Then the finance has been a whole lot of things inhritable.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Yeah, and the idea that you know contract is Fulton
Hogan we're getting making a nice little sum out of this.
Well while we felt in Wellington we weren't the council
wasn't able to invest enough to get the change we
needed in our pipes, as total disgrace. So I do
think there needs to be accountability for this.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So that mean your accountabilities, that mean Nick Leggett got
to go?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Well, I mean I think there does need to be
a high, high level accountability. Whether that's I don't know
enough about the dynamics here, don't know if that's with
Neck or the chief executive, but it doesn't look like
a good job has been done. He's been there for
two years.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Chim, do we need to go chasing these contractors in trial?
We announced today that Fulcon Hogan made four hundred and
seventy three million dollar profit last year. Should we go
after some of that money and say, hey, you've overcharged us?
Will you?
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Absolutely right, except that these are the contracts that they
signed up to at the time, right, And this is
the reason we need to bring in better structure, governance,
bitter management. This is why our local water don't well
policy is going to improve it. And the previous three
waters one was to blunt. It would shackle people like
Nelson to Wellington's water woes up on the Company Coast
where I live. We don't want to be tied up
(19:21):
with them. We want to you know, it makes far
more sense for us to join a local group of councils,
you know, between sort of company and palms to the north,
So that approach is going to be far better. But
absolutely we need better governance and management, a proper ceco
with some balance sheet separation for Wellington negleg it should
you go well, no, I think he's been hamstrung by
the structure I mean these camp.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
But he's been in charge for two years.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Well every year they have to go cap in hand
to the four different councils that they're serving to try and.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Surely if they're not running their own program or their
own business properly, doesn't matter that they go cap in hand.
If they can't get their own basics right, someone has
to pay well at.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
The moment it's right. Pay is paying right. And this
is why you know, Wellington needed. I would suggest focus
on getting the water and the pipes right before they
keep throwing an more bicycle lanes and golden miles. Let's
get the fundamental.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I think that's a little unfair because what the report
has shown is that you know, we may well have
put more money in. In fact, Wellington was putting plenty
of money in and actually we weren't getting the value
out of it that we needed. So I think to
say that it's to put the blame at the council
and the council's priorities isn't fair. That's not fair. What
(20:32):
this report shows is that it's actually there's there are
unbelievably poor management at Wellington Water that needs to be
sorted out.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Okay, just quickly, because I know we're running out of time.
We learned this week that officials encouraged Nichol Willis to
go back and renegotiate with High Undi Shipyard after canceling
two of the mega fairies. Now the government has set
aside three hundred million dollars to break as a break
fee to the company, regardless of we get new fairies
from Highundi. I sure is this more proof that Nicholas
(21:02):
shouldn't have canceled the Fairies. She jumped into quick. She
made it too quick.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
It absolutely is. And your recall, Nick, it was on
this show that we litigated some of those decisions early
on in this government's government's term. It looked reckless in
the past, and I think Nicola was too eager to
make a big political show of canceling a project and
not actually thoughtful, and as it turns out, not even
paying attention to the advice she was given. Well, she's
(21:28):
very lucky Winston Peters is there to save her a
bacon on this one.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well, I think she had it all sorted. I came
out in the show and said she had it all sorted.
But Winston wanted a Braille compatibility bigger so that she said,
well you take it on, Tim, Will we have an
answer by the end of this month? We will, Winston
give us an answer. Will we have it sorted? We will?
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Our government will give you an answer. And well you're
part of that government, correct, And so you'll get that answer. So,
as Nichola Wallace, you'll get that answer by the end
of the month. Probably won't be from me standing here now.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
No, No, I just asked if it will be on
that time frame that what I was asking a clear.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
Plan will being placed by the end of end of March.
Three hundred million. Yet that's a huge break free, right,
That's a lot of money. But you've got to remember
this is a seven hundred and seventy five million dollar
project that blew out to more than three billion, potentially
four billion, three four five times the original cost. It
is worth sadly having to spend that three hundred million
that we'd rather not have to to save billions of dollars.
(22:22):
So is that ideal? Of course it's not. But this
is the situation we've been put in where approject was
blown out by such a huge amount.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
So I just want to make it perfectly clear to
our listeners we will get an answer by the end
of the month.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Yep, clear plan by the end of the month.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Okay. Thanks Term and Aisha for joining us.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Ban, can you make your decisions?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
The politics Thursday? This week is Labour's health and Wellington's
issues spokes person spokeswoman is this spokespersonal spokesman?
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Either of those are fine and I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Next, I've just got to make clear it I've been
you know, I've got to clear up, make sure I
get it right. Bi Cheveril morning morning. How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah? Very well, thank you, good to be here, Good.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
To have you here at National's o techy MP Tim
Costly said, once, how are you well?
Speaker 5 (00:55):
Say I and you normally call me what you want,
so you call me anything today. But no, I'm great
and it's good to be with you on a beautiful,
typically sunny day.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
You copped it from the on the show once you
just keep repeating it. Have I affected you?
Speaker 5 (01:08):
I can tell it was more than once, but I
just repeat myself.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I'm not doing it well. See I'm being good.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Covering the big issues.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
That's good to see. Okay, I want to let's start
with the big issues, because you'll know exactly what's going
I'm going to start with with Tim because I'm confused
by this whole thing, and I actually know that he'll
know the answer. Let's start hearing you. Let's start Adrian
or the governor of the Reserve Bank has resigned suddenly
two years into his second five year term. But we
(01:39):
really don't know, well most of us don't know. Tim,
you know, tell us why.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
I love your confidence and me nake it really warms
my heart. Look, I'm not even going to pretend that
I know more than probably what you or anyone listening.
And I know that he resigned yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
And soon she must see something happening.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
Well, look, I'm not proving anything, and I think you'll
hear it from the Prime Minister of the Minister of
Finance if there is. But see, we've got confidence in
the Reserve Bank moving forward. You know it's in the
economies starting to show the right science. Interest rates are
coming down. That makes a real difference to Keili's at
the end of the week.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I sure have you heard anything? I mean, you know
he was in pretty good with you guys. So did
he ring you up and say ah, I've got a
bit of a problem. They won't make me coffee anymore,
so I'm out of here. I mean, what have you heard?
Speaker 4 (02:27):
No, I haven't. I just know what's been reported that
there hasn't been a reason given. I think it's important
to remember all people who are in these high level
senior appointments are people, and things can happen in people's
lives that we might not know about. So I'm not
going to leap in with my speculation except to you know,
he was governor of the Reserve Bank during unprecedented times
(02:51):
in terms of the pandemic and the financial environment during
that time, and you know, I wish him well for
the future.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I should even, you know, as diplomatic as you want
to be, you must look back at the times that
he was governed and say, gosh, just keep printing money. Gosh,
he caused us a few problems that we've got now.
Could have he done it any better?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Well, I think it's with many of the things that
happened during that time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. And
also I'd say that I don't know, I haven't read
any comparisons of his management vis a VI you know,
other central bank governors around the world to say that
the way he did his job was particularly different from others,
(03:37):
you know. So I think we've just got to recognize
it was incredibly, incredibly tough time and wishing well for
the future.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And we know that this position is supposed to be
non political, but we know that Nikola Willis, when she
is an opposition was scathing on him. She was scathing
on him. So obviously this was never going to work.
Why did it take so long?
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Look, I don't know if I characterize it as a
you know, inevitable thing that took too long. I think
what was really the key focus for probably Nicola as
the minister, but for us as a government, is getting
the economy sorted right and to be fear to the
Reserve Bank or the former Reserve Bank governor. It wasn't
just things like counditative easing printing money that took out
economy to the to the set.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
It was.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
It was the amount of deent. It was that it
was the way that money was spent once it was
printed that was wasteful. Actually, that's what we've been focused on,
and it's really pleasing to see what interest rates have
come down now one point seventy five percent. There's almost
two hundred bucks a week extra that that that key
was having the back pocket off the average mortgage, So
that actually makes a real difference. So I think you've
seen actually that over the last few years. Things have
(04:44):
been going in the right direction, over the last a
year and a half. And I've got full confidence and
where the you know, the temporary governor there is zerve
Bank will take us and moving forward.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
I should Someone's come down on them, haven't they. I mean,
someone's come down on them and said, hey, this is
going to be happened this way, or somebody. I mean,
I've met him once, spent an hour with him, Understand,
Adrian or I'm talking about he's a pretty staunch Kiwi bloke.
It's going to be He's not going to be persuaded
to change his mind on anything. Look, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
I don't know, So I don't want to fuel any
particular theory as to why. But what I would say,
in contrast to what Term has just said there is
I don't think you can do what Nikola Willis has
did during her time and opposition which has tried to
make a political enemy of him to be incredibly harsh
(05:35):
of of his work during the time she was in opposition,
take credit for the actions of the bank more recently
while she's in government in terms of bringing down inflation,
and still maintain that monetary policy is independent of government.
So you can't have it both ways.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Are these position really sort of non political wise? I
mean we see it all the time. We see police
commissioners design, we see changes, hospital CEOs resign. I mean
they're supposed to be non political, but we know they're not.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
We have seen an awful lot recently under this this government.
I mean, you know, in the health sector, we've seen
the entire Board of Health New Zealand, the Director General,
the Director of Public Health, the CEO of Health New Zealand,
and half of the tier of management beneath that go
here's another departure. So I think there is something to
(06:36):
be said about the sheer number of people, and I
think that does if when it goes too far, pose
a risk to the neutrality and independence of the public
public service. So I'd put it, I'd put it there
that I don't think it's desirable that these roles get
overly politicized. And there's been an awful lot of departures lately.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Well, I guess you know. The point I would make is, yeah,
people might ask some questions when you know, the Public
Service Commissioner moves out of the role and pops up
in a labor pat event straight away. But actually I
think it does a disservice to the amazing number of
public servants we have in this country that do work
a politically. I've served in the Defense Force and seen
what people do there, but across so many government departments,
(07:17):
and they actually do a remarkable job of getting up
in the morning, serving at the direction of the government
of the day to do the best they can for
New Zealand. And I think I would hate to see
that whittle down to a few examples of where people
have Maybe do you.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Want to just go back to what you said about
Peter Hughes and explain why that's a problem for you,
Because of course, when people resign their roles, they're allowed
to come and talk to anyone and of course, you know,
I'm sure people from the Defense Force could go and
talk to the National Party about their experiences after they
have held public office. What's wrong with that?
Speaker 5 (07:53):
It's very very defensive, No what I said was people
might ask questions when things like that happened, because don't
let me finish, because you have just said that someone's
resigning from Health and Z means they must have been politicized.
That's huge saying that these people left because what they
weren't aligned with the National Party and they were aligned
with yours government, so they had to leave. What I'm
saying is I can understand why in some instances people
(08:15):
might ask questions when something really overt happens. But actually
what I said was there was a huge number of
people that get up in the morning, they work for
the best of New Zealand, and that's what I think
we should be taken out of this.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, I think it is legitimate to ask questions about
the huge number of turnover in the health sector. And actually,
more important than the question of neutrality is the fact
there's actually no one who can run the ship at
the moment. That's the issue, the amount of chaos that's
been caused in the health sector by these departures, which
ultimately I think will be a decision the nation.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
Well, we've just plugged up the holes in the ship.
And you know, remember this was a health system in crisis,
den I actually might but a health system and crisis
under the under ushall when she was the minister. Now,
actually we've seen you know, huge numbers of more than
two thousand extra nurses come on. We've seen targets put
back to get wake times down. And remember what emergency
departments were like. So I'm not going to say here
(09:06):
and pretend that.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
None of them have them through.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Well, I can tell you what I hear people that
have been.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
But there's no improvement in health system performance.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Labour's Health and Willing to Issue spokeswoman is Severil in
the studio with us as well as National's O TACKI
MP tem costly. Let's talk school lunches, Tim, I'm coming
to you first. Okay, have you ever tried one? Uh?
No school?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Didn't you go to the one and eat the element
I'm not going to eat someone else's lunch.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
No. No.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
But they had the big promo Parliament where they brought
them all round and they had all the cameras and
all the fan fee.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
You didn't get invited to that and invited to that one? No,
I haven't any of them. Look, I speak to our
local school. So the issue for me is in and
most schools get them, and company they don't. Most schools
don't don't get them, and that's one of the problems.
We've got genuine kids and with genuine need that would
benefit from them, that aren't gidding them. And then I've
been to some schools in Fena weare where not only
(10:04):
does every student get them and they don't all need them,
but some teachers are getting them as well, And that
was never the intent of the party. I don't believe.
So no, look and all but two of my schools
are really happy with what they're getting because that they're
getting a great local provider. Two of them just wanted
They're like, oh, it's okay, we just prefer to change
to this other provider because it's more convenient for us
to get it from a living well.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
It's all been about the money, hasn't it. I mean,
trying to get the right deal at the right price
and knowledge.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Most for that money. That's right, That's how I would categoriz.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
That's right. But there's it's I should it's been a
bit of a debarkle.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Really hasn't a cherished program that was supporting good nutrition
for kids in need as well as the employment outcomes
for school communities because the way we had set up
the policy, you know, often the mums and dads were
able to get jobs being part of the provision, or
(10:56):
one of my cousins was providing it out of his
supermarket that he that he runs, so smaller set of
providers were providing under us and the product was a
park while as a as a result. And I think
it's quite telling, isn't it. This government spoke a very
big game about being managers and able to get good
managers and able to get better value than we did.
(11:17):
But it seems like this has just really proved that
that is not the case, and it's been a total
total shambles, thirteen days of butter, chicken, burnt food, non delivery.
It is. I really think it's put paid to the
idea of the government as good managers of public services.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Are you concerned that you've gone to this really big
company and the money is going overseas and it's not
performing and it's not working.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
So, I mean, I think that's pretty roast tented view
of the past, right, And let's start with the fundamentals.
This program was not funded by labor into this year.
So it was not there was no money none whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And how budget's work.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Yeah, I really understand how they were not. There are
no there are four cases for a bunch of stuff
and you had this cut off. We have brought back
the funding and you've got the opportunity usend the local provider.
Schools that were already using local providers were able to
stay with them. That's why my two schools want to
opt into it now because they weren't with it previously.
So schools that were already doing that had the option
(12:16):
to continue. But let's be clear, this should not be
a program to create jobs. This is not a should
not be approble not just feed everyone, because this was
fundamentally about helping kids that had a genuine need. It
came about during the sort of COVID period, helping those
with genuine need to make sure they could feed, be
fed because we know they're going to learn better. That's
what this was about. But it was too broad. It
(12:38):
missed people with genuine need, It hit people that didn't
need the support.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And you've seen the photos, right, you must have seen it.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Well, they're so eager to share them. They've shared photos
from twenty twenty two under the labor program. They're just
going to criticize anything no matter what it says. So
they've shared the.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Wrong So you haven't tried one, tasted one?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
No, I've never eaten one.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
And the teachers who are talking out about this are
they making that story up to that Lunches haven't been
delivered on time. I haven't been suitable, say nails all
the several days.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Place alted plasteric.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
I saw the one photo of the plastic, but I
also saw on criticizing something else which turned out to
be an old photo. So I believe there are genuine
cases where where where there are teething problems and we
want to improve it in terms of them being late.
The stats I shaws saw saw that are all about
ninety nine percent on time.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
There was one particular day apparently no no, no, I like.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
On Monday it was nineteen nine percent. I think last
week there was days where it was one hundred percent.
But of course there had probably been teething problems, and
let's not pretend that went under the last one. It
took a long time for some of my local schools
and live in to be able to set up their
own local program of course we want to do better.
We always want to do better, but we also want
to make sure we do it responsible, responsibly to get
to help as many kids with genuine need where we
(13:50):
can make a difference.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
What did you think when the Prime Minister said if
you don't like the idea of give your kids of
my Mite sandwich and an apple, which I agree with him.
I agree that you know my might sandwich is all
I had, or Veggie might sandwich with letters and an apple?
What's wrong with that?
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Oh? From trying to time, mar Might sandwich never hurt anybody.
But I think we know that our kids have well.
We're one of the third most of beest countries in
the world, so overall, in the long term we do
want to be providing kids with nutritious, nutritious food, and
the program as it was before, achieved that. I think
one of the important things for Christopher Laxon is.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Coming from Marmite sandwiches.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Though is it, well, what's the bread made out of?
Speaker 5 (14:33):
I don't think often. Look, I grew up on sandwiches.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
And do you want to get into a debate about nutrition.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
I'd love to get into a debate about I think
it's actually, the right people have to a school lunch
come from a responsibility that we have.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And you will come back.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think the thing to understand about one of the
changes in our community is now more than half the
kids that live in poverty their parents work. So programs
like this are incredibly important for supporting working peace people
to be able to look after their kids. And we
may not like that as a country, but that is
the reality of people's wages today. This is doing an
(15:13):
incredibly important job for working people, sadly who need the
support for their kids to get to be fed properly.
That's the situation our country is in. And so making
it sound like it's a matter of choice that parents
could just it's just that they never thought of a
marmite sandwich and the Prime Minister needed to remind them
(15:34):
that that was an option. I think that is incredibly
condescending quickly because I do.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
Want to move on to them, and look, I won't
to on the point. Look, you know, I think we
have a responsibility before we have a right. We have
responsibility to look after our kids, not just our own,
but those in our community. And when it comes to it,
the government has to at times step in to do that,
So we should be targeting that as much as we
can to get to those with most needs. Yes, they
are working poor, that's terrible, but that's why our work
(16:00):
to reduce the cost of living to greater economy is
just so important.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So you're saying that we're giving too many children free lunches.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
I think some of the lunches under the old program,
we're going to places where what there wasn't genuine need,
and there were some kids with genuine need who are
missing out.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, but the numbers are increased under your under your change.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
That's that's the point is it's about getting it to
more people. It is because there are like I said,
told me that, hold on.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Hold, I'm just confused here. I might not be the
most smartest guy in the world. You're saying you don't
want to have so many, but you're actually good because
I wanted.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
To see a more targeted approach, because, like I said
at the start, there are schools and carpity with kids
with genuine need, the kind that I she was just
speaking about that weren't getting anything. I would rather that
we targeted this so we could feed more people and
therefore help more people. With genuine need.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Let's move on to the biggest story of the week
Wellington and Wellington this week anyway, Wellington Water. It's a
reporter has found that the organization was spending up to
three times as much as comparable counsels on pipe repairs.
There as much and there were and such, there was
little oversight of finances even was talked about. I share
(17:09):
there's been the scandal after scandal with Wellington Water.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
What is the answer, Well, as it's currently constituted, it
cannot go on, and were our government's water reforms to continue,
it would not be there. There would be a new
a new body and new government.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And the new coalition's got one of those plans too.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yes, well it was not there. They they have delayed
all of that work by deciding they wanted to throw
all of that those reforms out. So currently we are
stuck with Wellington Water and cleaning up the mess that
that's going on going on there. I do think, I mean,
you're totally right to go to the background number of issues,
including it goes back. Was it two or three years
(17:54):
ago we had the fluoride. They're not even putting fluoride
in the water properly, which made me and.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Then the finance has been a whole lot of things inhritable.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Yeah, and the idea that you know contract is Fulton
Hogan we're getting making a nice little sum out of this.
Well while we felt in Wellington we weren't the council
wasn't able to invest enough to get the change we
needed in our pipes, as total disgrace. So I do
think there needs to be accountability for this.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So that mean your accountabilities, that mean Nick Leggett got
to go?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Well, I mean I think there does need to be
a high, high level accountability. Whether that's I don't know
enough about the dynamics here, don't know if that's with
Neck or the chief executive, but it doesn't look like
a good job has been done. He's been there for
two years.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Chim, do we need to go chasing these contractors in trial?
We announced today that Fulcon Hogan made four hundred and
seventy three million dollar profit last year. Should we go
after some of that money and say, hey, you've overcharged us?
Will you?
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Absolutely right, except that these are the contracts that they
signed up to at the time, right, And this is
the reason we need to bring in better structure, governance,
bitter management. This is why our local water don't well
policy is going to improve it. And the previous three
waters one was to blunt. It would shackle people like
Nelson to Wellington's water woes up on the Company Coast
where I live. We don't want to be tied up
(19:21):
with them. We want to you know, it makes far
more sense for us to join a local group of councils,
you know, between sort of company and palms to the north,
So that approach is going to be far better. But
absolutely we need better governance and management, a proper ceco
with some balance sheet separation for Wellington negleg it should
you go well, no, I think he's been hamstrung by
the structure I mean these camp.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
But he's been in charge for two years.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Well every year they have to go cap in hand
to the four different councils that they're serving to try and.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Surely if they're not running their own program or their
own business properly, doesn't matter that they go cap in hand.
If they can't get their own basics right, someone has
to pay well at.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
The moment it's right. Pay is paying right. And this
is why you know, Wellington needed. I would suggest focus
on getting the water and the pipes right before they
keep throwing an more bicycle lanes and golden miles. Let's
get the fundamental.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I think that's a little unfair because what the report
has shown is that you know, we may well have
put more money in. In fact, Wellington was putting plenty
of money in and actually we weren't getting the value
out of it that we needed. So I think to
say that it's to put the blame at the council
and the council's priorities isn't fair. That's not fair. What
(20:32):
this report shows is that it's actually there's there are
unbelievably poor management at Wellington Water that needs to be
sorted out.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Okay, just quickly, because I know we're running out of time.
We learned this week that officials encouraged Nichol Willis to
go back and renegotiate with High Undi Shipyard after canceling
two of the mega fairies. Now the government has set
aside three hundred million dollars to break as a break
fee to the company, regardless of we get new fairies
from Highundi. I sure is this more proof that Nicholas
(21:02):
shouldn't have canceled the Fairies. She jumped into quick. She
made it too quick.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
It absolutely is. And your recall, Nick, it was on
this show that we litigated some of those decisions early
on in this government's government's term. It looked reckless in
the past, and I think Nicola was too eager to
make a big political show of canceling a project and
not actually thoughtful, and as it turns out, not even
paying attention to the advice she was given. Well, she's
(21:28):
very lucky Winston Peters is there to save her a
bacon on this one.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well, I think she had it all sorted. I came
out in the show and said she had it all sorted.
But Winston wanted a Braille compatibility bigger so that she said,
well you take it on, Tim, Will we have an
answer by the end of this month? We will, Winston
give us an answer. Will we have it sorted? We will?
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Our government will give you an answer. And well you're
part of that government, correct, And so you'll get that answer. So,
as Nichola Wallace, you'll get that answer by the end
of the month. Probably won't be from me standing here now.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
No, No, I just asked if it will be on
that time frame that what I was asking a clear.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
Plan will being placed by the end of end of March.
Three hundred million. Yet that's a huge break free, right,
That's a lot of money. But you've got to remember
this is a seven hundred and seventy five million dollar
project that blew out to more than three billion, potentially
four billion, three four five times the original cost. It
is worth sadly having to spend that three hundred million
that we'd rather not have to to save billions of dollars.
(22:22):
So is that ideal? Of course it's not. But this
is the situation we've been put in where approject was
blown out by such a huge amount.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
So I just want to make it perfectly clear to
our listeners we will get an answer by the end
of the month.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Yep, clear plan by the end of the month.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Okay. Thanks Term and Aisha for joining us.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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