November 19, 2025 • 19 mins
On Politics Thursday this week Nick Mills was joined by Labour MP Ginny Andersen and National's Ōtaki MP Tim Costley.
They discussed the new Cook Strait ferry designs, and price tag and got heated over the end to puberty blockers for young people experiencing gender dysphoria.
Costley and Andersen talked about the other political issues of the week including the rising prison numbers and our police culture.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said, b yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Phones because the shipped they didn't really want to sit
next to each other last week Politics Thursday. He wants
to take over the show. He's got the social media
presence now and he wants to come in. And Tim
Costley from O Techy National Imp, good.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Morning, good morning, your opportunity to talk now, thank you
permission to speak. No, it's great to be here. It's
like we were just chatting with you and Jenny off here.
It's nice to have an excuse to get out of
the building this week. It's long hours and there it's great.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Judy Anderson Labor and Pete nice to have you. And
again I hope you'll fire him up a bit.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Well, it's the first time and like face to face
in person for for us both. So let's let's see
how it goes.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
He's pretty cocky. He's got this little thing where he's
got a little camera and everything he does on life,
he's got this camera on there. So he's kind of
thinks he's a new Tom Cruise, you know, from Tium
because he's helping many kind of things, you know, he's
just I thinks he's a tall version of show.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I can't argue with that, so so.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
He thinks, you know, I want you to I want
you to peg them back. Let's start with fairies, all right, okay, Tim? Happy?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yes, happy?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We've got the new scaled out model, not as big,
not as flash, not as good, but we're going to
get it a couple of years late, going to save
us all shivers lot of money there.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Half the price, right, well, slightly less that that's great. Well,
I think every key we will be happy to know
that their money has been taken really seriously, spent, really wisely,
that we're going to get the two fairies that we
were promised. They're going to be great, they're going to
do the service that we need, but they're also going
to save us a couple of billion dollars. That's money
that can go not just into the schools and hospitals,
(01:58):
but into new roads and the Mountain Vac tunnel. This
is fantastic news for Wellington Guiney.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's pretty hard to have an argument against that.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
These one sort of vital component from this meths equation
that's missing, and that's the six hundred and seventy one
million dollars that Nikola willis paid out, and we still
don't know the total cost of those break fees, So
in all these calculations, that's missing. And the other thing
that's not right is two point two billion was what
(02:27):
was committed. Those those have been substantially inflated, and they're
failing to factor in the fact that these break fee costs.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
That is I mean, I felt sorry for the one
news journalist yesterday when he was asking Winston about it
shut down, closed down, kicked down, because no one seems
to want to talk about the six one hundred million,
do they.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, that's not the exact number that I've seen, but.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Look, it's not in your key lines.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Look, look some of that money gets reused into the
into the project. But regardless, let's run with that. Let's
say your number is right, so of the because because
I think this is going to cost about one point
seven not four. So let's give you another sex. We've
saved one point seven billion, isn't that? Isn't it a
good news story?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And we had the chairman on this morning and it's
eight hundred million, eight hundred sorry, eight hundred yeah, eighty
five million it was a figure that they're going to
be getting reused.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah, well, our calculations are that the theories that we
had lined up were bigger and that they were also cheaper.
At five hundred and fifty one million is what I had.
There's no way that they could have delivered a better deal,
and the fact that it's taken so long and had
to renegotiate that deal has brought Ginny.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You're conveniently forgetting about the infrastructure costs. I mean that
we know on you and that was blowing out. They
were coming. They were knocking on your door every week
for another twenty five to fifty million dollars.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Let's just hope the existing infrastructure holds up because we
know that they're both picked In and Wellington his issues.
So yep, that's great. They found a solution with no
infrastructure requirements there, but those issues are going to have
to be address to one day. And the point I
was going to make was that their level of uncertainty
in the local economy for both Wellington and picked In
(04:15):
has caused real damage to business. And what is this
we're into two years? Really, isn't it? It's two years
of not knowing whether we have a vital connection between
our two islands able to be secured and.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
The one downside of it autumn. And you've got to
be honest about this is that we've got very old
theories that have got to last. What are we dow
twenty twenty six, it's four years, I mean, and we
can all say they've been great lately, and we've we've
got to give praise where praises due. They have been
great lately, but they're old girls. They need some loving.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, look, they're going to get to the finish line.
But that's why getting the right replacement and one that's
going to last, and having the systems in place so
that you know, Key Rail are building up the capital
to buy the next replacement early is really important. There
are things that we've delivered, but let's also be clear
that there is money in this project. Yet there's you know,
five hundred almost six hundred million for the ships, and
(05:11):
there's almost another you know, six hundred million going into
I think picked in four hundred million for Wellington. So
there is investment into infrastructure, but it's it's picking ships
that work with a lot of the existing infrastructure that
exists on those ports. At each end. That is saving
US billions of dollars and that's got to be a
good thing.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Right, Let's move on. Simmy and Brown is holding new
prescriptions for puberty blockers for young people with gender issues.
We are now waiting until the research is done in
England are UK. There's been quite an uproar on social media,
particular from the trans community. Tim This to me feels political.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I think this is this is first and foremost health.
It's about how do you get sort of evidence based,
clinically sound information that.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We've been we'll be using it since twenty ten, it's
fifteen years. But I've heard of our professor on the
morning saying there's more harm in taking aspirin than there is.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I mean, well, that's not what the research shows, are right,
Look at the report, that's the cast report that's come
out from the UK that shows the evidence is remarkably weak.
That that's that's her words, not mine, remarkab.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
We Why can't when political decisions are made, why can't
they just say, yeah, it's political, we don't like the
idea of it.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well I don't think it is. I think this is
about it. Look, there is the evidence that we are
seeing is that there isn't good evidence for this. There
is a lot of other gender affirming care that is
out there where this is this is one only one
aspect of it. But also you know, there's what we
are seeing evidence around the world of some bias regret
people at very young age making very big decisions. I
(06:48):
think we need to actually make sure parents and families
know that they're giving the absolute best care for the
for the young person.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Ginny, this is life saving stuff for some people. I mean,
let's let's be really clear about this. I mean, this
is this is a very big decision, sort of once
again stuck under the car.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
The GP I think you had on the show I
heard on news talk today said that, and I think
that's the best answer I've heard is this is not
a political call. It's a medical call, and those decisions
should be made by the medical profession, by parents and
their kids. That they're the people that should be making
these decisions, not politicians, not Samin Brown. We know that
(07:30):
we know that Samyon has some particular ideological views, and
by making this into a political football, it only damages
our young people. We know that those people in the
Rainbow community have higher proportion for mental health, for suicide rates,
for all of those issues that are really challenging for
young people. And by politicizing this issue, it doesn't do
(07:52):
them any good at all.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Well, and that doesn't wash with our experience of the
last labor government, right because they absolutely politicized that mandata
what everyone would have to do or not be able
to do, won't front up to the inquiry for it.
And it's fine. I think this is a ministry.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
There was nothing to do with puberty blockers. Are you
accusing that was something else.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I just said that that no politicians should be involved
in any decision about health policy. That is completely the opposite.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I didn't say health policy, I think specifically with this issue.
I think this is a really.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
High on the tread come out of a significant inquiry
into the UK. We are following the best evidence that.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Where do we following the UK before? Where did this
UK thing come in?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I mean, this was in the last two hundred and
fifty years?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, I mean, come on, I mean this is this
is a political decision made by a certain group of
political people that can make that decision. It's pretty obvious.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I genuinely don't think it is. I've spoken to people
that work in this field and the things they tell
me is gender filming KA is far wider than this.
This is one thing there's a lot of buyers regret
out there that we're seeing overseas and that the evidence
just isn't there to say that this is the right
decision at such a young age to put into place. Now,
we've got the report that's come out of the UK
and a number of other countries that have.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Made there's been but there's been some quite significant criticism
of that report saying that wasn't fairly represented across everyone
who should have been on that panel that came out
of there. So there have been criticisms of that report.
So when you see politicians holding up one piece of
research and pointing at it, you've got to ask questions.
And in these issues where you've got young people's mental
(09:29):
health and well being at stake, I just think it's
not the right call for it to be made a
political issue. Let families make these choices.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Let's take a break. At seventeen minutes past eleven, Tim Costley,
Ginny Anderson in the studio, It's Thursday Politics Thursday. When
we come back, I want to talk about the Prime
Minister being awesome happy about the fact that we've got
eleven thousand people in jails. Is it happy the right word?
He didn't. Yeah, happy, Yeah, I'll go with that. It
(09:59):
is Politics Thursday with Tim Costley and Ginny Anderson. The
prison numbers near eleven thousand. Christopher Luckson said, this is
a good thing, and the cost is the cost. But
each prisoner costs us over or around one hundred thousand
a year. Ginny, what do you think when you hear
that the Prime Minister says it's a good thing. We've
(10:20):
got eleven thousand people, nearly eleven thousand people.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
It costs a taxpayer one hundred and twenty thousand dollars
per prisoner per year. So add that up and think
how that could go towards our health, paying for GP visits,
paying for education s.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
But surely you don't want people that are committing crimes,
not to serious crimes, not to be put in most
definitely not.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
We want to reduce recidivism, which is repeat offenders, and
so we want a proper treatment for methanphetamine, for mental health,
for undiagnosed head injuries. A third of prisoners have a
head injury, and so we think that it's important that
people get the support they need to get on the
right path and just simply locking everybody up is not
(11:01):
the answer and it's a waste of taxpayers money. Bill
English himself, former leader of the National Party, said that
prisons are a fiscal and moral failure. So there's been
a complete one eighty from those words to now.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And to this proves that crime is not coming down
under your watch, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Well know, because the figures show that serious crime is
coming down, that ram raids have likes.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Stop before you got it, they came down under us.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
No, you look at the stats from the last two years.
Crime is absolutely coming down under this government. What this
is is do we want lots of people in prison?
Of course we don't, but we want not.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Your Prime Minister thought it was a good thing, correct.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So if you let me say the other half per cent,
and the reason you want to have less people in
prison is because there are less people committing crime. But
if people are committing crime, we can't do what the
last come and said was well, we're just going to
have an arbitrary thirty percent less people in prison.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
It's not what we said a crime.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
We did not absolutely what they're said, and then crime
went up, serious and violent crime. You can't take that approach.
You can't have it. It's okay, there has to be
a consequence. That consequence will be part of a whole
range of things, you know, couple with some of the
social investment stuff we're doing that will ultimately solve that
and over the long term we will see those numbers
come back down. But the harsh reality, and.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
You think those numbers are coming down, let me just
be devil's advocate here. Sure, if you think those numbers
are coming down, why the hell are you building more jails.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Because people are being held accountable for the stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I'm still you're contradicting your own statement. No, not well,
we're building new jails to put more people in jails.
But you said the numbers are coming down. Why are
we building if you don't need them?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Nic I said that the serious enviolent crime is coming down,
but we are actually having consequences for people that are
committing crime at the moment. We're not just taking it.
It's okay, have another goho, son. We're saying, if people
aren't committing the crime they are going to have to
do the time. We would much rather the crime that
no one was doing that. But there has to be
a consequence in place. There has to be a deterran
(12:57):
that's the whole point of a prison.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
But it's important to be not tough on crime, I agree,
but tough on the causes of crime. And that's where
National fails. Ninety seven percent increase in myth in fetamine
under their watch, games are making record profits from manufacturing
and distributing myth and also that is harmful to all
of those who have got mental health issues and are
in prison with the higher rates of drug taking. So
(13:21):
it's all very well saying that you've being tough on crime,
but the real stats show things like myth in phetamine.
Organized crime is booming under this government.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And I'm proud of our anti myth is about five
last two we talked about last week. But look the
stats showing. You want to quote Bill English, He'll tell
you that eighty five percent of people who end up
in our prisons don't have level two in CEA. You
want to fix that, you have to fix fundamentals like education.
That's what we've done. We've been willing to make the
tough calls and do that. What we have and the.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Stats show foreign ideas for your education and.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Select Comittee yesterday the best education policy that we.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Have seen at motion. It's not even a key we want.
You've imported foreign ideas for your education structure.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Children are doing far better now than they were even
at the start of this year. So you deny what
and all the everything's showing us you don't and you
don't even want it because maybe one of the books
came from.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Over teachers and about the curriculum that Eric Stanford has
rolled out and they are absolutely scathing, damaged to damage.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
To achieving at the same rate as Parking. How that
seen boys lifting and they're reading.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
And right, taking the treaty out of the Board of
Trustees is no requirement for.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Sign and fifty years ago. This is a fundamental ature
of if you want people to do well, give them
a decent education. They are getting there under our government.
And it would be nice if Flavor came out and
supported the good things for once.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Focus groups and platitudes is all that National offers.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right, let's move on, Time to cut and move on police. Yes,
it's been a horrid time over the last couple of
weeks hasn't. Yes, I'm looking straight at you. I mean,
now we find out that your commissioner or police Richard
Chamber has decided to go, I mean pre arranged. I'm
(15:05):
not trying to a crack at them, but probably the
worst time that I can remember in policing in my lifetime. Sure,
you've got no commissioner, no one in charge.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I mean there's still as a commissioner who's in charge.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
There isn't. I mean I went, well, the stuff we've got,
there's no one actually singularly in charge.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Well, he's still the commissioner, but but but he's out
of the country. Yeah, and look, look, I won't pretend
that I know what the reasons for that and the
considerations that went into is that, you know, important enough
to still go or not in the context of what's
happened over the last No one's questioning that the significance
of the last week and a half, as you say,
don't doubt that at all.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I mean, now we've got twenty more offices under investigation.
I mean, it's just not looking good. I'm not saying
it's your fault or anyone's fault, but it's just not
looking good, is it.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
No, No, no, it's it's it's not good. What is good,
you know, as we talked about last week, is the
courageous officers that did the right thing, that spoke up
that that that we are seeing, you know, investigations that
are sorting the place out so that this won't happened
again and people that you know we're doing the wrong
thing will be held to account.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That is important, Ginny, under your watch when you're a
Minister of Police, would you have let the commissioner go
away for two weeks under these circumstances without enacting commissioner, Well, the.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Minister of Police can't direct operationally what the commissioner does.
But it wasn't great timing. This has been a really
sad time for New Zealand in general, and I think
the public feels really let down by the fact that
senior leadership and police failed them.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And also, Jenny, I've got to interrupt you. To be fair,
a lot of these issues that we're seeing is by,
you know, under the watchful eye of Andrew Costel, who
was kind of a Labour's you know, flagship guy. Labour
thought he was the new new coming and I bought
into it as well.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Well, that I p c A report is crystal clear
that there was clear failures there and there's still questions
to be answered around police culture going forward. Matt Mitchell
has not really commented at.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
All on your mess aren't they Well.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I would disagree with that. I would say that when
I first worked in police, and that's a while ago now,
that's over fifteen years ago. That was when the Baisley
Report first came in and there were sixty recommendations for
changing police culture that we monitored through the Auditor General
and there was regular report backs. What this latest information
after this IPCA report shows is there still is significant
(17:34):
work to do to improve police culture, and I think
that the Minister needs to demonstrate the public what the
work program is going forward to reassure people that they
have trust and confidence in the police.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Now, you worked in head office as an employee, So
I've got to ask you this because I'm on the
front line dealing with the police all the time. On
the front line, I believe that they have got us
in them culture. You've worked on it. Do you think
they have police do.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
That's a really difficult question, Nick, because I've seen upfront
what police do and they do. They put everything into
their job. They work over time, They do everything they
can to resolve crime, to hold offenders to account and
to give victims the sense of resolution they need to.
They work incredibly hard for not great pay. So my
(18:22):
experience of working in police is it's an awesome organization
and I think it's really sad for the vast majority
of police officers who do their very best and put
their lives on the line each day.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Tim Richard Chambers, I think most of us have confidence
in him. Most of us think that he's been past
a slippery board and he's trying to clean it up
and run with it.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Your thoughts, Yeah, I've only heard good things. I've met
him just the once when we had a big Boy
racer event and Livin. He and the minister fronted up
immediately within about twelve hours and we went and spent
time with the police on the beach and the other people.
I feel for right now, I was at the weekend
at an event the Strawberry Festival raising money for the
hospice and had to chat with the police there and
(19:06):
just sort of passed on my encouragement to them because
there are thousands of policemen and women that serve this
country across. Obviously, I feel for the woman at the
heart of this, but for all the other police officers there,
this doesn't reflect on them. They do a great job
in our community. I'm really proud of them.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Tim Costly and Johnny Anderson, thank you for coming in.
I know you've got a very very busy couple of days,
even having go to midnight and started in the morning
job at all. Maybe Saturday morning.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah, we could be there at day.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, Saturday night were min man.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Time and yep, no time. You both for coming in.
Enjoyed having you in the studio. Tim Costley and Jinny Anderson.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said, b yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Phones because the shipped they didn't really want to sit
next to each other last week Politics Thursday. He wants
to take over the show. He's got the social media
presence now and he wants to come in. And Tim
Costley from O Techy National Imp, good.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Morning, good morning, your opportunity to talk now, thank you
permission to speak. No, it's great to be here. It's
like we were just chatting with you and Jenny off here.
It's nice to have an excuse to get out of
the building this week. It's long hours and there it's great.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Judy Anderson Labor and Pete nice to have you. And
again I hope you'll fire him up a bit.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Well, it's the first time and like face to face
in person for for us both. So let's let's see
how it goes.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
He's pretty cocky. He's got this little thing where he's
got a little camera and everything he does on life,
he's got this camera on there. So he's kind of
thinks he's a new Tom Cruise, you know, from Tium
because he's helping many kind of things, you know, he's
just I thinks he's a tall version of show.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I can't argue with that, so so.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
He thinks, you know, I want you to I want
you to peg them back. Let's start with fairies, all right, okay, Tim? Happy?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yes, happy?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We've got the new scaled out model, not as big,
not as flash, not as good, but we're going to
get it a couple of years late, going to save
us all shivers lot of money there.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Half the price, right, well, slightly less that that's great. Well,
I think every key we will be happy to know
that their money has been taken really seriously, spent, really wisely,
that we're going to get the two fairies that we
were promised. They're going to be great, they're going to
do the service that we need, but they're also going
to save us a couple of billion dollars. That's money
that can go not just into the schools and hospitals,
(01:58):
but into new roads and the Mountain Vac tunnel. This
is fantastic news for Wellington Guiney.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's pretty hard to have an argument against that.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
These one sort of vital component from this meths equation
that's missing, and that's the six hundred and seventy one
million dollars that Nikola willis paid out, and we still
don't know the total cost of those break fees, So
in all these calculations, that's missing. And the other thing
that's not right is two point two billion was what
(02:27):
was committed. Those those have been substantially inflated, and they're
failing to factor in the fact that these break fee costs.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
That is I mean, I felt sorry for the one
news journalist yesterday when he was asking Winston about it
shut down, closed down, kicked down, because no one seems
to want to talk about the six one hundred million,
do they.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, that's not the exact number that I've seen, but.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Look, it's not in your key lines.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Look, look some of that money gets reused into the
into the project. But regardless, let's run with that. Let's
say your number is right, so of the because because
I think this is going to cost about one point
seven not four. So let's give you another sex. We've
saved one point seven billion, isn't that? Isn't it a
good news story?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And we had the chairman on this morning and it's
eight hundred million, eight hundred sorry, eight hundred yeah, eighty
five million it was a figure that they're going to
be getting reused.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah, well, our calculations are that the theories that we
had lined up were bigger and that they were also cheaper.
At five hundred and fifty one million is what I had.
There's no way that they could have delivered a better deal,
and the fact that it's taken so long and had
to renegotiate that deal has brought Ginny.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You're conveniently forgetting about the infrastructure costs. I mean that
we know on you and that was blowing out. They
were coming. They were knocking on your door every week
for another twenty five to fifty million dollars.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Let's just hope the existing infrastructure holds up because we
know that they're both picked In and Wellington his issues.
So yep, that's great. They found a solution with no
infrastructure requirements there, but those issues are going to have
to be address to one day. And the point I
was going to make was that their level of uncertainty
in the local economy for both Wellington and picked In
(04:15):
has caused real damage to business. And what is this
we're into two years? Really, isn't it? It's two years
of not knowing whether we have a vital connection between
our two islands able to be secured and.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
The one downside of it autumn. And you've got to
be honest about this is that we've got very old
theories that have got to last. What are we dow
twenty twenty six, it's four years, I mean, and we
can all say they've been great lately, and we've we've
got to give praise where praises due. They have been
great lately, but they're old girls. They need some loving.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, look, they're going to get to the finish line.
But that's why getting the right replacement and one that's
going to last, and having the systems in place so
that you know, Key Rail are building up the capital
to buy the next replacement early is really important. There
are things that we've delivered, but let's also be clear
that there is money in this project. Yet there's you know,
five hundred almost six hundred million for the ships, and
(05:11):
there's almost another you know, six hundred million going into
I think picked in four hundred million for Wellington. So
there is investment into infrastructure, but it's it's picking ships
that work with a lot of the existing infrastructure that
exists on those ports. At each end. That is saving
US billions of dollars and that's got to be a
good thing.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Right, Let's move on. Simmy and Brown is holding new
prescriptions for puberty blockers for young people with gender issues.
We are now waiting until the research is done in
England are UK. There's been quite an uproar on social media,
particular from the trans community. Tim This to me feels political.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I think this is this is first and foremost health.
It's about how do you get sort of evidence based,
clinically sound information that.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We've been we'll be using it since twenty ten, it's
fifteen years. But I've heard of our professor on the
morning saying there's more harm in taking aspirin than there is.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I mean, well, that's not what the research shows, are right,
Look at the report, that's the cast report that's come
out from the UK that shows the evidence is remarkably weak.
That that's that's her words, not mine, remarkab.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
We Why can't when political decisions are made, why can't
they just say, yeah, it's political, we don't like the
idea of it.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well I don't think it is. I think this is
about it. Look, there is the evidence that we are
seeing is that there isn't good evidence for this. There
is a lot of other gender affirming care that is
out there where this is this is one only one
aspect of it. But also you know, there's what we
are seeing evidence around the world of some bias regret
people at very young age making very big decisions. I
(06:48):
think we need to actually make sure parents and families
know that they're giving the absolute best care for the
for the young person.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Ginny, this is life saving stuff for some people. I mean,
let's let's be really clear about this. I mean, this
is this is a very big decision, sort of once
again stuck under the car.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
The GP I think you had on the show I
heard on news talk today said that, and I think
that's the best answer I've heard is this is not
a political call. It's a medical call, and those decisions
should be made by the medical profession, by parents and
their kids. That they're the people that should be making
these decisions, not politicians, not Samin Brown. We know that
(07:30):
we know that Samyon has some particular ideological views, and
by making this into a political football, it only damages
our young people. We know that those people in the
Rainbow community have higher proportion for mental health, for suicide rates,
for all of those issues that are really challenging for
young people. And by politicizing this issue, it doesn't do
(07:52):
them any good at all.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Well, and that doesn't wash with our experience of the
last labor government, right because they absolutely politicized that mandata
what everyone would have to do or not be able
to do, won't front up to the inquiry for it.
And it's fine. I think this is a ministry.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
There was nothing to do with puberty blockers. Are you
accusing that was something else.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I just said that that no politicians should be involved
in any decision about health policy. That is completely the opposite.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I didn't say health policy, I think specifically with this issue.
I think this is a really.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
High on the tread come out of a significant inquiry
into the UK. We are following the best evidence that.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Where do we following the UK before? Where did this
UK thing come in?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I mean, this was in the last two hundred and
fifty years?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, I mean, come on, I mean this is this
is a political decision made by a certain group of
political people that can make that decision. It's pretty obvious.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I genuinely don't think it is. I've spoken to people
that work in this field and the things they tell
me is gender filming KA is far wider than this.
This is one thing there's a lot of buyers regret
out there that we're seeing overseas and that the evidence
just isn't there to say that this is the right
decision at such a young age to put into place. Now,
we've got the report that's come out of the UK
and a number of other countries that have.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Made there's been but there's been some quite significant criticism
of that report saying that wasn't fairly represented across everyone
who should have been on that panel that came out
of there. So there have been criticisms of that report.
So when you see politicians holding up one piece of
research and pointing at it, you've got to ask questions.
And in these issues where you've got young people's mental
(09:29):
health and well being at stake, I just think it's
not the right call for it to be made a
political issue. Let families make these choices.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Let's take a break. At seventeen minutes past eleven, Tim Costley,
Ginny Anderson in the studio, It's Thursday Politics Thursday. When
we come back, I want to talk about the Prime
Minister being awesome happy about the fact that we've got
eleven thousand people in jails. Is it happy the right word?
He didn't. Yeah, happy, Yeah, I'll go with that. It
(09:59):
is Politics Thursday with Tim Costley and Ginny Anderson. The
prison numbers near eleven thousand. Christopher Luckson said, this is
a good thing, and the cost is the cost. But
each prisoner costs us over or around one hundred thousand
a year. Ginny, what do you think when you hear
that the Prime Minister says it's a good thing. We've
(10:20):
got eleven thousand people, nearly eleven thousand people.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
It costs a taxpayer one hundred and twenty thousand dollars
per prisoner per year. So add that up and think
how that could go towards our health, paying for GP visits,
paying for education s.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
But surely you don't want people that are committing crimes,
not to serious crimes, not to be put in most
definitely not.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
We want to reduce recidivism, which is repeat offenders, and
so we want a proper treatment for methanphetamine, for mental health,
for undiagnosed head injuries. A third of prisoners have a
head injury, and so we think that it's important that
people get the support they need to get on the
right path and just simply locking everybody up is not
(11:01):
the answer and it's a waste of taxpayers money. Bill
English himself, former leader of the National Party, said that
prisons are a fiscal and moral failure. So there's been
a complete one eighty from those words to now.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And to this proves that crime is not coming down
under your watch, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Well know, because the figures show that serious crime is
coming down, that ram raids have likes.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Stop before you got it, they came down under us.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
No, you look at the stats from the last two years.
Crime is absolutely coming down under this government. What this
is is do we want lots of people in prison?
Of course we don't, but we want not.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Your Prime Minister thought it was a good thing, correct.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So if you let me say the other half per cent,
and the reason you want to have less people in
prison is because there are less people committing crime. But
if people are committing crime, we can't do what the
last come and said was well, we're just going to
have an arbitrary thirty percent less people in prison.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
It's not what we said a crime.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
We did not absolutely what they're said, and then crime
went up, serious and violent crime. You can't take that approach.
You can't have it. It's okay, there has to be
a consequence. That consequence will be part of a whole
range of things, you know, couple with some of the
social investment stuff we're doing that will ultimately solve that
and over the long term we will see those numbers
come back down. But the harsh reality, and.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
You think those numbers are coming down, let me just
be devil's advocate here. Sure, if you think those numbers
are coming down, why the hell are you building more jails.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Because people are being held accountable for the stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I'm still you're contradicting your own statement. No, not well,
we're building new jails to put more people in jails.
But you said the numbers are coming down. Why are
we building if you don't need them?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Nic I said that the serious enviolent crime is coming down,
but we are actually having consequences for people that are
committing crime at the moment. We're not just taking it.
It's okay, have another goho, son. We're saying, if people
aren't committing the crime they are going to have to
do the time. We would much rather the crime that
no one was doing that. But there has to be
a consequence in place. There has to be a deterran
(12:57):
that's the whole point of a prison.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
But it's important to be not tough on crime, I agree,
but tough on the causes of crime. And that's where
National fails. Ninety seven percent increase in myth in fetamine
under their watch, games are making record profits from manufacturing
and distributing myth and also that is harmful to all
of those who have got mental health issues and are
in prison with the higher rates of drug taking. So
(13:21):
it's all very well saying that you've being tough on crime,
but the real stats show things like myth in phetamine.
Organized crime is booming under this government.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And I'm proud of our anti myth is about five
last two we talked about last week. But look the
stats showing. You want to quote Bill English, He'll tell
you that eighty five percent of people who end up
in our prisons don't have level two in CEA. You
want to fix that, you have to fix fundamentals like education.
That's what we've done. We've been willing to make the
tough calls and do that. What we have and the.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Stats show foreign ideas for your education and.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Select Comittee yesterday the best education policy that we.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Have seen at motion. It's not even a key we want.
You've imported foreign ideas for your education structure.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Children are doing far better now than they were even
at the start of this year. So you deny what
and all the everything's showing us you don't and you
don't even want it because maybe one of the books
came from.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Over teachers and about the curriculum that Eric Stanford has
rolled out and they are absolutely scathing, damaged to damage.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
To achieving at the same rate as Parking. How that
seen boys lifting and they're reading.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
And right, taking the treaty out of the Board of
Trustees is no requirement for.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Sign and fifty years ago. This is a fundamental ature
of if you want people to do well, give them
a decent education. They are getting there under our government.
And it would be nice if Flavor came out and
supported the good things for once.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Focus groups and platitudes is all that National offers.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right, let's move on, Time to cut and move on police. Yes,
it's been a horrid time over the last couple of
weeks hasn't. Yes, I'm looking straight at you. I mean,
now we find out that your commissioner or police Richard
Chamber has decided to go, I mean pre arranged. I'm
(15:05):
not trying to a crack at them, but probably the
worst time that I can remember in policing in my lifetime. Sure,
you've got no commissioner, no one in charge.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I mean there's still as a commissioner who's in charge.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
There isn't. I mean I went, well, the stuff we've got,
there's no one actually singularly in charge.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Well, he's still the commissioner, but but but he's out
of the country. Yeah, and look, look, I won't pretend
that I know what the reasons for that and the
considerations that went into is that, you know, important enough
to still go or not in the context of what's
happened over the last No one's questioning that the significance
of the last week and a half, as you say,
don't doubt that at all.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I mean, now we've got twenty more offices under investigation.
I mean, it's just not looking good. I'm not saying
it's your fault or anyone's fault, but it's just not
looking good, is it.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
No, No, no, it's it's it's not good. What is good,
you know, as we talked about last week, is the
courageous officers that did the right thing, that spoke up
that that that we are seeing, you know, investigations that
are sorting the place out so that this won't happened
again and people that you know we're doing the wrong
thing will be held to account.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That is important, Ginny, under your watch when you're a
Minister of Police, would you have let the commissioner go
away for two weeks under these circumstances without enacting commissioner, Well, the.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Minister of Police can't direct operationally what the commissioner does.
But it wasn't great timing. This has been a really
sad time for New Zealand in general, and I think
the public feels really let down by the fact that
senior leadership and police failed them.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And also, Jenny, I've got to interrupt you. To be fair,
a lot of these issues that we're seeing is by,
you know, under the watchful eye of Andrew Costel, who
was kind of a Labour's you know, flagship guy. Labour
thought he was the new new coming and I bought
into it as well.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Well, that I p c A report is crystal clear
that there was clear failures there and there's still questions
to be answered around police culture going forward. Matt Mitchell
has not really commented at.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
All on your mess aren't they Well.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I would disagree with that. I would say that when
I first worked in police, and that's a while ago now,
that's over fifteen years ago. That was when the Baisley
Report first came in and there were sixty recommendations for
changing police culture that we monitored through the Auditor General
and there was regular report backs. What this latest information
after this IPCA report shows is there still is significant
(17:34):
work to do to improve police culture, and I think
that the Minister needs to demonstrate the public what the
work program is going forward to reassure people that they
have trust and confidence in the police.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Now, you worked in head office as an employee, So
I've got to ask you this because I'm on the
front line dealing with the police all the time. On
the front line, I believe that they have got us
in them culture. You've worked on it. Do you think
they have police do.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
That's a really difficult question, Nick, because I've seen upfront
what police do and they do. They put everything into
their job. They work over time, They do everything they
can to resolve crime, to hold offenders to account and
to give victims the sense of resolution they need to.
They work incredibly hard for not great pay. So my
(18:22):
experience of working in police is it's an awesome organization
and I think it's really sad for the vast majority
of police officers who do their very best and put
their lives on the line each day.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Tim Richard Chambers, I think most of us have confidence
in him. Most of us think that he's been past
a slippery board and he's trying to clean it up
and run with it.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Your thoughts, Yeah, I've only heard good things. I've met
him just the once when we had a big Boy
racer event and Livin. He and the minister fronted up
immediately within about twelve hours and we went and spent
time with the police on the beach and the other people.
I feel for right now, I was at the weekend
at an event the Strawberry Festival raising money for the
hospice and had to chat with the police there and
(19:06):
just sort of passed on my encouragement to them because
there are thousands of policemen and women that serve this
country across. Obviously, I feel for the woman at the
heart of this, but for all the other police officers there,
this doesn't reflect on them. They do a great job
in our community. I'm really proud of them.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Tim Costly and Johnny Anderson, thank you for coming in.
I know you've got a very very busy couple of days,
even having go to midnight and started in the morning
job at all. Maybe Saturday morning.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah, we could be there at day.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, Saturday night were min man.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Time and yep, no time. You both for coming in.
Enjoyed having you in the studio. Tim Costley and Jinny Anderson.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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