Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand. You
can't help when it comes to communication, having a breakdown
of communication to say that if there is any sort
of communication, you're gonna have bad communication as well. We've
talked about assumptions many times on the show about how
(00:21):
people assume things, and misunderstandings is kind of a smaller
category of that. Misunderstandings and communication are those things that
happened innocently. Most of the time. You'll do something or
someone else will do something, and then you kind of
need two halves to this. You need the person sending
(00:43):
out the message and the person receiving the message. So
the person who sends the message does one thing could
be innocently, and then the person that receives the message
receives it either partially or inaccurately or what have you.
And then you have misunderstandings and they happen all over
the place. They happen in scripture, of course, and this
(01:03):
breakdown in communication. The reason why it's unique, and I
wanted to point it out, is that there is something,
there's this great pride that shadows people when it comes
to knowing things. Well, I know this, or I just
know this. And when it comes to knowing the heart
(01:26):
of man, you will never be right. There's too much
to it. You may have a decent insight and say, okay,
well my perception is this, it's this, or it's this,
But truly, no one knows the heart of man except God.
(01:47):
So one guy says something, the other guy interprets that goes, oh, well,
I think this, and no one ever talks just kind
of go on and start spreading that misunderstanding to others.
You've ever seen a fight or a scuffle breakout between
(02:07):
siblings when a mother or father is in the room
observing everything, and how just the slightest situation, Oh well
he hit me. Well no, he didn't hit you. I
saw the way it went down. He was backing up
from getting from the table and backed his chair and
(02:28):
you not knowing that you were there, and the kids
are so ready to just say no, absolutely not. He
bumped into me. He did that on purpose. And how
much like children are you when you come to a
conclusion that someone has done you wrong without all the facts.
(02:52):
And it seems that because detective shows or television shows
where people can know all and come to conclusions faster
than anybody else, because all things are solved in the
twenty two minute half hour of a television program, or
(03:12):
of course in forty five minutes should they have commercial
breaks and it be an hour. But that's just not
the way life is.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Not.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Everything is going to be so cut and dry, and
there's confusion in life. And communication is of a very
wonderful and delicate art at times. But if you look
at the workplace and even the home and the relationships
you're in, how easy it is to be misunderstood. And
(03:42):
through this misunderstanding, something get buried and then pushed on
to someone else, and then they push it on to
someone else, and then they push it onto someone else,
and it becomes becomes fact just by populous, and scripture
is not keen on that specifically. A scripture says in
Matthew eighteen fifteen that if you have an issue of
(04:05):
any kind, you're to go to that person and you're
to explain your issue, and you're going to let them
defend themselves or explain or learn from what they did wrong.
But it doesn't seem to be in fashion, It doesn't
seem to be in vogue to give somebody the opportunity
(04:31):
to correct themselves, and so someone will go running off
with a misunderstanding. Happens all the time corporate America. The
perception you hear somebody say part of a sentence, or
you see somebody do something. Just the other day, I
saw two people coming out of one of the studios
(04:54):
at the radio station, and they were in a conversation
prior to being in the studio, and then continued it
as they left the studio in a whisper fashion. And
the automatic assumption is that, oh, they must be talking
about the person that they just saw in the studio.
(05:17):
That makes sense, they're leaving the place whispering had nothing
to do with the person in the studio. I see
people in the grocery store who watch somebody who gets
in front of them, and they think that the person
is doing that on purpose, when an actuality, the person
didn't see them or was confused by the way the
(05:37):
line is set. And these little misunderstandings may not seem
like a big deal to you, but what ends up
happening is either hurt feelings come from that, or anger
festers up because somebody feels that they've been done wrong,
Or what happens is somebody will defend themselves in their
(06:02):
own mind if they perceive somebody as doing something to
them by starting some sort of war with that person,
whether it be behind the scenes or spreading rumors or
what have you. And these misunderstandings can be ugly and damaging.
You'd be surprised how much you don't know about the
(06:23):
people around you. And so that's part of the beauty
of getting to know one another. This spreads in so much.
I see wonderful relationships wobbling or taking on horrible, horrible
pain because of misunderstandings, and because of people's fear of
(06:43):
being rejected, they may not be you may not be
very prone to ask the tough questions or to you know,
really find out if something's going on or if there's
a concern. Maybe you don't want to know, but scripture
is clear, you go to one another and you talk
(07:04):
about these things. The majority of the problems that come
from miscommunication, you're going to be cleared up very quickly.
The secondary problem is that nobody believes anybody anymore. So
even when you try and correct things, it seems that
it gets oh okay, yeah, but I still don't believe them,
(07:27):
and I'm not sure why this says, I'm not sure why.
Once you have something locked inside you you have some
idea of how it went down, that you believe that
that's the only way it could go down. This is
all throughout scripture. There's tons of things in scripture that
have that the attitude of misunderstanding. There's things that are
(07:52):
taught in scripture that people were taught wrong growing up,
and I still assume that it's in scripture. I hear
arguments all the time. You've heard them on this very
program where people will call up and say, oh, well,
that's because you know the apple that eve ate there
(08:13):
wasn't an apple. It doesn't say anything about an apple.
It says fruit. Not a very big misunderstanding, but some
people can be I've heard arguments saying, oh, well, I
heard that the Garden of Eden was in Palestine, and
that's not possible. They don't have apples. But yeah, all
kinds of a lot of assumptions that someone has to
(08:35):
to swallow first before they can even make that argument.
In logic, they call it a straw man argument. When
you build and imagine like a scarecrow, you build a
false argument, this false person, and then you torch the person.
They say, well, that's fine, but that's not even that's
(08:55):
not even a real person. That person's made out of straw.
And there's much of it in scripture where somebody will say, oh,
well there was two of each animal on the arc. No,
there were pairs. Sometimes there were more than two of
each animal. And people say things like Jonah and the
whale doesn't say whale, says big fish, and different things,
(09:17):
different stories that you know, there was three wise men. No,
doesn't say three wise men. It says the magi there
was three gifts. So the assumption is it's three, but
not necessarily. You know, people think about the image of
an angel and what an angel looks like or what
an angel has and the one pair of wings and
(09:38):
the harp and the singing, and you're not going to
find that in scripture. So there's things that get built
in throughout history or time and the assumption is this
is what scripture says or what have you. And there's
those types of misunderstandings and all in all, the important
(09:58):
thing to do in every case where you think that
you might just on one tiny little point might be wrong,
just take the time to research and take the time
to talk it out. Tom, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show. Hello,
you've been so patient. I recognize that you called last
(10:20):
week as well and you did not get on. I'm
so grateful that you are. You are patient enough because
your call was one that touched me. Well, keep what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
As the word says, keep seeking and keep knocking. I
was a pastor for twenty one years. Eighteen years ago,
though I committed adultery, I did leave the ministry. I repented,
I built bridges. I haven't pastored for eighteen years now.
(10:52):
I'm still with my dear wife of thirty eight years.
But now I have a chance to go back into
the pastorate. But I something nagging at me because biblically
am I permanently disqualified? Or or do I have a
chance at restoration? Since for the overseer he is to
(11:15):
be blameless and above reproach. And so I am struggling
with Biblically, can I be a pastor again?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
There is nothing, there's nothing in scripture that grants that wish,
as it were. I know you're looking for a different answer, Tom,
And the pastor and and and standing before people in
that context is one of great weight and one that
(11:44):
comes up obviously in scripture, as you quote UH and
Timothy and Titus Chuckswindall. UH, well known author and pastor
himself once said that talking about this very issue, that
it takes only one pin to burst a balloon. And
(12:07):
I know that the world continually gets more relaxed with
things and less offended by things, and therefore they start
to go, oh, well, you know you should be more
relaxed on this. And I know you've seen a lot
of TV preachers that have fallen away or had situation
then just get restored right back. And really that all
that does is make Christianity more of a laughing stock.
(12:31):
That doesn't mean that there aren't things for you to do.
There aren't wonderful places for you to be in the
church and things that you can participate in. But it
asks that of Scripture specifically, because that's the mindset that
a pastor has to be in to be in that
place being above reproach. And it doesn't mean that you
(12:52):
can't teach or there aren't ways to teach. I'm gonna
ask you to put stay on hold, Tom, because I
want to talk to you just after this quick uh,
this quick break, but I want to talk to you
more about what that means and some things that you
may be able to do that would fulfill that calling. Tom,
(13:14):
thanks for holding.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
On bumper music but brought me to my knees. That
was I seemed to speak to my heart.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, that's that's why we have someone like Tony with
us to help orchestrate those moments as we go in
and out that emphasize with modern and older music as
to what's going on in people's lives. And right now, Tom,
you stand before your God as someone who has you
think of it this way, you're not being It's not
(13:45):
punitive when I when I tell you that if you're
a pastor and you fall away from the standard of
of leadership, they can fusion lies in Christians going, well,
shouldn't we forgive? Absolutely? But this kind of earlsheibe one
(14:06):
day paint job mentality is great for a car, but
not for restoring a pastor to leadership. And that's become
kind of the the set pacing. Well, if you give
him a year off and we kind of brush him up,
get the dings out, repaint them and put them back
behind the pulpit, everything's going to be fine, but I'll
(14:29):
tell you something. My producer, Neil I thought about ministry
at one time not a good enough guy. Knew it
right out. He's just not a good enough guy, and
and knew that all it would do is bring problems
to God. And so if you're if you're going to
(14:51):
stand before God that way, Tom and lead people, you've
got to be in a different category and you've got
to be created for it. Now. Paul knew this. Paul
knew there that if there were any problems, he would
be disqualified. Listen to his words in one Corinthians nine
twenty seven. He said, I disciplined my body. I disciplined
(15:15):
my body and make it my slave, so that after
I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
And that's, you know, with the context of Paul, obviously,
that's dealing with sexual sin and the concern of that
being a problem. And you, you, in that moment when
(15:40):
you had that affair, you in that moment, said that
that woman, that orgasm, that sexual contact was more important
than your wife, than your own word and commitment and
your God, you fore fitted, you made the decision. You
(16:05):
God told you what the rules were, and you agreed
to them, and you forfeited that. I hope it was
a great orgasm, because that was that you forfeited, that
you gave that up and you walked away from it. Now,
that doesn't mean God hates you. God still loves you.
(16:29):
The Church once loves you and wants you in the church.
But this kind of revolving door can be a problem,
especially to non believers, and believers just end up going
oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and they hear the teacher at
the pulpit and they go, oh, well, it's not a
(16:49):
big deal, you know. And it's not that you can't
be human, but you got to be above reproach. You've
got to be standing above those things. You have to
be a good husband and a righteous man. And that's
the core problem with the church is that they look
(17:09):
for dynamic speakers, good writers, somebody who can publish books,
someone who can sing well play guitar, and that's and
none of those things are mentioned in scripture, none of them.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And yet you gave Peter a second chance.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's not about second chances, Peter. Peter denied in fear.
But Peter didn't in that state of authority sleep with someone.
Sexual sin you know this in scripture is set apart
(17:45):
and as a sin gets the body and that and
culturally that tends to kind of fall by the wayside.
You can look for excuses, tom, Yeah, and you'll find
them in every nook and cranny of life. You will
find And I know that the assumption is, oh, well,
you know what, there's this this show, they call it
(18:06):
Jesus Christ show. They've got to have liberal theology. No,
that is the That is the one reason why I'm
here is in hopes of one letting the legalists that
are just you know, trying to to crush the spirit
of Christianity know that I'm out there watching, and two
(18:28):
to let the those that are liberal in their theology
know that I'm out there watching.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, I always used to say, an excuse there's only
a skin of a reason wrapped in a lie. So
I'm not looking for any excuses.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
And that's a beautiful way to say it. You've got
You've got your lovely wife who has been who has
been wonderful enough to forgive you through all of this
and to stand by you. That's amazing. You should be
received into the body and uh, you should participate in
the church and enjoy the church and be brought back
into fellowship, but not as a pastor. There's nothing in
(19:06):
scripture that's going to say that nothing. And I know
that's hard line, and I know people will have problems
with it, and people are going to say, but I
went through this and now i'm a But it doesn't
matter if if you do that, in that moment, you
tell God, I want this instant, I want this romance,
I want this physical sensation. I want this more than
I want you. And this position that you called me
(19:29):
to you and you give it up, you had the
strength to not do it, and you chose not to.
There's a lot of sins you fall into in life
because they're around you and the way it is and
getting upset. I mean, if you were dealing with with
certain other attributes, it's not like you were gluttonous and
(19:52):
you've lost the weight. Now this is something specific, and
I know that that stinks and it's not what you
wanted to hear. But the reason why you should seek leadership,
the reason why you should seek God is because you
respect it, because you're good at it, you're comfortable doing it,
(20:16):
or you liked it and you received a lot from it,
and people seem to like when you say, that's not it.
I see these little, these small little churches, Tom, with
twenty families in them, and the pastor doesn't speak that well,
but boy he loves God, and boy he knows scripture.
(20:39):
And they're small little churches. And then you get these
slick churches, and not all the large ones are slick,
but you know the difference. Slick churches with everything right
and everything is going smoothly, and they get massive and
people think that that's where God is because they're massive. Again,
because I'm gonna get emails people getting confused. I'm not
(21:01):
saying that a mega church or a very large churches
is not a church of God. I'm saying there's a difference.
But to just look at those appearances and say ones
of God because it's large, and ones not of God
because it's small. And all these different excuses people make
about what a pastor should be and what shouldn't and
all these things. No Scripture says, and it's very specific,
and you knew that going into it, Tom, and you
(21:23):
could quote it to me today and you said, for
that moment, that time, however long the affair lasted, that
it didn't matter. You said, I don't care, I want
this and I want it now, and you got it.
Thank Heaven that your wife is a godly woman who
(21:49):
allowed you back into the marital bed and in her life.
You should count your blessings there. And it doesn't mean
that you can't write about your experiences, that you can't
use it to be a teaching tool, That you'll never
(22:10):
use any of your abilities for God is a silly statement.
But you can't do that anymore because if you do that,
as it says in scripture, you crucify me twice. If
you do that, you stand and it doesn't show the
glory of forgiveness. It shows that nobody's watching the church
(22:35):
and nobody cares. And it's beyond just being human. It
was decisive, wouldn't you say, Tom, you made a decision
to do that. Yes, And aren't you man enough both
as a human and a Christian to receive those consequences
(22:58):
as they stand here on earth?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I would hope so.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Well, then why don't you move forward with that? An
opportunity doesn't mean it's a good one just because it exists.
There are Christians that ask the other Christians to do
things all the time that may not be good for them.
The hope is that you have your own set of
tools for discernment and the ability to go Nope, this
(23:24):
isn't right for me, because you know, one Christian can
say you want to come over, I'm having a wine
tasting and it's not a problem for them, and it's
not a sin. Yet you're asking an alcoholic a Christian
and for them it would be a sin to participate in.
(23:44):
You can't slap the face of God on this one, Tom,
and I know that's not what you were looking for.
And you were so very brave and you know to
take the time and to call and to share those
things and to explain what you've gone through. But I
think that the church waivers far too much on certain things.
(24:05):
And as I said, you know, my producer Neil couldn't
live up to what it takes to be a pastor,
which is why he's not and why he's got to
participate in a show like this too, hopefully show his
own love for God. Susan, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I just want to start by saying thank you very
much for your show. I really appreciate it, and I
learn a lot from it, so I look forward to
it every week.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Oh, you're very nice, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Okay, I have a question. I have two parts to it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I hope that.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Doesn't seem too foolish, but I wondered the Bible says
we are wonderfully and fearfully made. I wondered if there's
any spiritual connection or significance to men and beards. Okay,
And I have two questions to questions religious. At number one,
why did God create men to have beards? You know,
(25:13):
he career, they were created that way when all they
do is shave it off. And then the main reason
is my son decided to go a beard, and I
just thought, like most guys, he wanted to just give
his face a rest from shaving every day. But when
I asked him, I was very surprised to hear his answer.
He said he did some research on it, and in
(25:36):
Bible times the only men that were bare face, as
he says, were eunuchs and gays, and so he said,
I will never be bear faced again. And I thought
very strange. And I was just wondering if you had
any any thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Not true on a lot of different levels, and there's
so much which unfortunately we're not going to have time
to get through all of it, so I'll cut right
to the chase that the reason why there's beards is
because the bodies are adaptable. The bodies are adaptive to
their surroundings, and body hair is part of that process.
That's why you get you know, what people call goose
(26:19):
pimples or goosebumps and the hair stands on it and
stuff like that. That is a reaction to the surrounding
and your body adapting to it. And the little hairs
on your arms, the hairs on your face are all
there for protective reasons for different parts or different things
that were done that we're the roles of men and women.
That's why there's differences there. And you know, women may
(26:40):
carry fatty tissue in certain areas that men don't, et cetera.
Some people would say, well, that has to do with
the evolutionary process and all this. No, that's by design
and there's specifics to it and a biological specifics to
it that help with the individuals too. Aesthetics there air
aesthetic difference is just like you see in nature, specifically
(27:03):
for the appearance of you know if you see often
the male of the species often has the really colorful plumes,
and you think it would be the ladies, but not
necessarily true. And that's to attract a mate, and so
there's certain things about it being masculine and being distinct
from the female that becomes attractive. Doesn't mean that a
(27:25):
woman now likes a beard, but I will tell you
this that even women who like clean shaven men like
when a man has double sometimes and it gives that
look of relaxation and all these things. So there's aesthetic
things that go there. Scripturally, the reason why our Jewish
brothers and sisters would trim their beards, and now the
(27:49):
Orthodox Acidic Jews and the like will continue with this
process is because Leviticus nineteen twenty seven, specifically Leviticus nineteen
twenty seven talks about rounding the corner of your head.
So the beards and the sideburns were grown out, grown out,
and this part of the process of separating. The Levitical
laws were there to separate from the Pagans at the time,
(28:12):
and what the Pagans were doing, the our Jewish brothers
and sisters wouldn't be doing. So they would try and
separate themselves from the things that were going going on
in the day. Now, some of the pagans might have
and did practice in certain things, whether it be homosexuality
(28:32):
or what have you, and so that may be where
your son is kind of turning this up. But really
it's a it's a it's a far stretch, and I'm
not sure what your uh, you know, what your son
is protesting or what issues he's going through that he
feels the need to protest his sexuality or his lack
(28:55):
of a certain type of sexuality or I'm not sure
what's going on there or what your son is going through.
There might be that would be a time for another discussion,
is my guess. But that's the biblical tie in and
then biological tie in and all of that, and I
hope that that helps kf I am six forty on
demand
You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand. You
can't help when it comes to communication, having a breakdown
of communication to say that if there is any sort
of communication, you're gonna have bad communication as well. We've
talked about assumptions many times on the show about how
(00:21):
people assume things, and misunderstandings is kind of a smaller
category of that. Misunderstandings and communication are those things that
happened innocently. Most of the time. You'll do something or
someone else will do something, and then you kind of
need two halves to this. You need the person sending
(00:43):
out the message and the person receiving the message. So
the person who sends the message does one thing could
be innocently, and then the person that receives the message
receives it either partially or inaccurately or what have you.
And then you have misunderstandings and they happen all over
the place. They happen in scripture, of course, and this
(01:03):
breakdown in communication. The reason why it's unique, and I
wanted to point it out, is that there is something,
there's this great pride that shadows people when it comes
to knowing things. Well, I know this, or I just
know this. And when it comes to knowing the heart
(01:26):
of man, you will never be right. There's too much
to it. You may have a decent insight and say, okay,
well my perception is this, it's this, or it's this,
But truly, no one knows the heart of man except God.
(01:47):
So one guy says something, the other guy interprets that goes, oh, well,
I think this, and no one ever talks just kind
of go on and start spreading that misunderstanding to others.
You've ever seen a fight or a scuffle breakout between
(02:07):
siblings when a mother or father is in the room
observing everything, and how just the slightest situation, Oh well
he hit me. Well no, he didn't hit you. I
saw the way it went down. He was backing up
from getting from the table and backed his chair and
(02:28):
you not knowing that you were there, and the kids
are so ready to just say no, absolutely not. He
bumped into me. He did that on purpose. And how
much like children are you when you come to a
conclusion that someone has done you wrong without all the facts.
(02:52):
And it seems that because detective shows or television shows
where people can know all and come to conclusions faster
than anybody else, because all things are solved in the
twenty two minute half hour of a television program, or
(03:12):
of course in forty five minutes should they have commercial
breaks and it be an hour. But that's just not
the way life is.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Not.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Everything is going to be so cut and dry, and
there's confusion in life. And communication is of a very
wonderful and delicate art at times. But if you look
at the workplace and even the home and the relationships
you're in, how easy it is to be misunderstood. And
(03:42):
through this misunderstanding, something get buried and then pushed on
to someone else, and then they push it on to
someone else, and then they push it onto someone else,
and it becomes becomes fact just by populous, and scripture
is not keen on that specifically. A scripture says in
Matthew eighteen fifteen that if you have an issue of
(04:05):
any kind, you're to go to that person and you're
to explain your issue, and you're going to let them
defend themselves or explain or learn from what they did wrong.
But it doesn't seem to be in fashion, It doesn't
seem to be in vogue to give somebody the opportunity
(04:31):
to correct themselves, and so someone will go running off
with a misunderstanding. Happens all the time corporate America. The
perception you hear somebody say part of a sentence, or
you see somebody do something. Just the other day, I
saw two people coming out of one of the studios
(04:54):
at the radio station, and they were in a conversation
prior to being in the studio, and then continued it
as they left the studio in a whisper fashion. And
the automatic assumption is that, oh, they must be talking
about the person that they just saw in the studio.
(05:17):
That makes sense, they're leaving the place whispering had nothing
to do with the person in the studio. I see
people in the grocery store who watch somebody who gets
in front of them, and they think that the person
is doing that on purpose, when an actuality, the person
didn't see them or was confused by the way the
(05:37):
line is set. And these little misunderstandings may not seem
like a big deal to you, but what ends up
happening is either hurt feelings come from that, or anger
festers up because somebody feels that they've been done wrong,
Or what happens is somebody will defend themselves in their
(06:02):
own mind if they perceive somebody as doing something to
them by starting some sort of war with that person,
whether it be behind the scenes or spreading rumors or
what have you. And these misunderstandings can be ugly and damaging.
You'd be surprised how much you don't know about the
(06:23):
people around you. And so that's part of the beauty
of getting to know one another. This spreads in so much.
I see wonderful relationships wobbling or taking on horrible, horrible
pain because of misunderstandings, and because of people's fear of
(06:43):
being rejected, they may not be you may not be
very prone to ask the tough questions or to you know,
really find out if something's going on or if there's
a concern. Maybe you don't want to know, but scripture
is clear, you go to one another and you talk
(07:04):
about these things. The majority of the problems that come
from miscommunication, you're going to be cleared up very quickly.
The secondary problem is that nobody believes anybody anymore. So
even when you try and correct things, it seems that
it gets oh okay, yeah, but I still don't believe them,
(07:27):
and I'm not sure why this says, I'm not sure why.
Once you have something locked inside you you have some
idea of how it went down, that you believe that
that's the only way it could go down. This is
all throughout scripture. There's tons of things in scripture that
have that the attitude of misunderstanding. There's things that are
(07:52):
taught in scripture that people were taught wrong growing up,
and I still assume that it's in scripture. I hear
arguments all the time. You've heard them on this very
program where people will call up and say, oh, well,
that's because you know the apple that eve ate there
(08:13):
wasn't an apple. It doesn't say anything about an apple.
It says fruit. Not a very big misunderstanding, but some
people can be I've heard arguments saying, oh, well, I
heard that the Garden of Eden was in Palestine, and
that's not possible. They don't have apples. But yeah, all
kinds of a lot of assumptions that someone has to
(08:35):
to swallow first before they can even make that argument.
In logic, they call it a straw man argument. When
you build and imagine like a scarecrow, you build a
false argument, this false person, and then you torch the person.
They say, well, that's fine, but that's not even that's
(08:55):
not even a real person. That person's made out of straw.
And there's much of it in scripture where somebody will say, oh,
well there was two of each animal on the arc. No,
there were pairs. Sometimes there were more than two of
each animal. And people say things like Jonah and the
whale doesn't say whale, says big fish, and different things,
(09:17):
different stories that you know, there was three wise men. No,
doesn't say three wise men. It says the magi there
was three gifts. So the assumption is it's three, but
not necessarily. You know, people think about the image of
an angel and what an angel looks like or what
an angel has and the one pair of wings and
(09:38):
the harp and the singing, and you're not going to
find that in scripture. So there's things that get built
in throughout history or time and the assumption is this
is what scripture says or what have you. And there's
those types of misunderstandings and all in all, the important
(09:58):
thing to do in every case where you think that
you might just on one tiny little point might be wrong,
just take the time to research and take the time
to talk it out. Tom, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show. Hello,
you've been so patient. I recognize that you called last
(10:20):
week as well and you did not get on. I'm
so grateful that you are. You are patient enough because
your call was one that touched me. Well, keep what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
As the word says, keep seeking and keep knocking. I
was a pastor for twenty one years. Eighteen years ago,
though I committed adultery, I did leave the ministry. I repented,
I built bridges. I haven't pastored for eighteen years now.
(10:52):
I'm still with my dear wife of thirty eight years.
But now I have a chance to go back into
the pastorate. But I something nagging at me because biblically
am I permanently disqualified? Or or do I have a
chance at restoration? Since for the overseer he is to
(11:15):
be blameless and above reproach. And so I am struggling
with Biblically, can I be a pastor again?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
There is nothing, there's nothing in scripture that grants that wish,
as it were. I know you're looking for a different answer, Tom,
And the pastor and and and standing before people in
that context is one of great weight and one that
(11:44):
comes up obviously in scripture, as you quote UH and
Timothy and Titus Chuckswindall. UH, well known author and pastor
himself once said that talking about this very issue, that
it takes only one pin to burst a balloon. And
(12:07):
I know that the world continually gets more relaxed with
things and less offended by things, and therefore they start
to go, oh, well, you know you should be more
relaxed on this. And I know you've seen a lot
of TV preachers that have fallen away or had situation
then just get restored right back. And really that all
that does is make Christianity more of a laughing stock.
(12:31):
That doesn't mean that there aren't things for you to do.
There aren't wonderful places for you to be in the
church and things that you can participate in. But it
asks that of Scripture specifically, because that's the mindset that
a pastor has to be in to be in that
place being above reproach. And it doesn't mean that you
(12:52):
can't teach or there aren't ways to teach. I'm gonna
ask you to put stay on hold, Tom, because I
want to talk to you just after this quick uh,
this quick break, but I want to talk to you
more about what that means and some things that you
may be able to do that would fulfill that calling. Tom,
(13:14):
thanks for holding.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
On bumper music but brought me to my knees. That
was I seemed to speak to my heart.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, that's that's why we have someone like Tony with
us to help orchestrate those moments as we go in
and out that emphasize with modern and older music as
to what's going on in people's lives. And right now, Tom,
you stand before your God as someone who has you
think of it this way, you're not being It's not
(13:45):
punitive when I when I tell you that if you're
a pastor and you fall away from the standard of
of leadership, they can fusion lies in Christians going, well,
shouldn't we forgive? Absolutely? But this kind of earlsheibe one
(14:06):
day paint job mentality is great for a car, but
not for restoring a pastor to leadership. And that's become
kind of the the set pacing. Well, if you give
him a year off and we kind of brush him up,
get the dings out, repaint them and put them back
behind the pulpit, everything's going to be fine, but I'll
(14:29):
tell you something. My producer, Neil I thought about ministry
at one time not a good enough guy. Knew it
right out. He's just not a good enough guy, and
and knew that all it would do is bring problems
to God. And so if you're if you're going to
(14:51):
stand before God that way, Tom and lead people, you've
got to be in a different category and you've got
to be created for it. Now. Paul knew this. Paul
knew there that if there were any problems, he would
be disqualified. Listen to his words in one Corinthians nine
twenty seven. He said, I disciplined my body. I disciplined
(15:15):
my body and make it my slave, so that after
I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
And that's, you know, with the context of Paul, obviously,
that's dealing with sexual sin and the concern of that
being a problem. And you, you, in that moment when
(15:40):
you had that affair, you in that moment, said that
that woman, that orgasm, that sexual contact was more important
than your wife, than your own word and commitment and
your God, you fore fitted, you made the decision. You
(16:05):
God told you what the rules were, and you agreed
to them, and you forfeited that. I hope it was
a great orgasm, because that was that you forfeited, that
you gave that up and you walked away from it. Now,
that doesn't mean God hates you. God still loves you.
(16:29):
The Church once loves you and wants you in the church.
But this kind of revolving door can be a problem,
especially to non believers, and believers just end up going
oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and they hear the teacher at
the pulpit and they go, oh, well, it's not a
(16:49):
big deal, you know. And it's not that you can't
be human, but you got to be above reproach. You've
got to be standing above those things. You have to
be a good husband and a righteous man. And that's
the core problem with the church is that they look
(17:09):
for dynamic speakers, good writers, somebody who can publish books,
someone who can sing well play guitar, and that's and
none of those things are mentioned in scripture, none of them.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And yet you gave Peter a second chance.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's not about second chances, Peter. Peter denied in fear.
But Peter didn't in that state of authority sleep with someone.
Sexual sin you know this in scripture is set apart
(17:45):
and as a sin gets the body and that and
culturally that tends to kind of fall by the wayside.
You can look for excuses, tom, Yeah, and you'll find
them in every nook and cranny of life. You will
find And I know that the assumption is, oh, well,
you know what, there's this this show, they call it
(18:06):
Jesus Christ show. They've got to have liberal theology. No,
that is the That is the one reason why I'm
here is in hopes of one letting the legalists that
are just you know, trying to to crush the spirit
of Christianity know that I'm out there watching, and two
(18:28):
to let the those that are liberal in their theology
know that I'm out there watching.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, I always used to say, an excuse there's only
a skin of a reason wrapped in a lie. So
I'm not looking for any excuses.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
And that's a beautiful way to say it. You've got
You've got your lovely wife who has been who has
been wonderful enough to forgive you through all of this
and to stand by you. That's amazing. You should be
received into the body and uh, you should participate in
the church and enjoy the church and be brought back
into fellowship, but not as a pastor. There's nothing in
(19:06):
scripture that's going to say that nothing. And I know
that's hard line, and I know people will have problems
with it, and people are going to say, but I
went through this and now i'm a But it doesn't
matter if if you do that, in that moment, you
tell God, I want this instant, I want this romance,
I want this physical sensation. I want this more than
I want you. And this position that you called me
(19:29):
to you and you give it up, you had the
strength to not do it, and you chose not to.
There's a lot of sins you fall into in life
because they're around you and the way it is and
getting upset. I mean, if you were dealing with with
certain other attributes, it's not like you were gluttonous and
(19:52):
you've lost the weight. Now this is something specific, and
I know that that stinks and it's not what you
wanted to hear. But the reason why you should seek leadership,
the reason why you should seek God is because you
respect it, because you're good at it, you're comfortable doing it,
(20:16):
or you liked it and you received a lot from it,
and people seem to like when you say, that's not it.
I see these little, these small little churches, Tom, with
twenty families in them, and the pastor doesn't speak that well,
but boy he loves God, and boy he knows scripture.
(20:39):
And they're small little churches. And then you get these
slick churches, and not all the large ones are slick,
but you know the difference. Slick churches with everything right
and everything is going smoothly, and they get massive and
people think that that's where God is because they're massive. Again,
because I'm gonna get emails people getting confused. I'm not
(21:01):
saying that a mega church or a very large churches
is not a church of God. I'm saying there's a difference.
But to just look at those appearances and say ones
of God because it's large, and ones not of God
because it's small. And all these different excuses people make
about what a pastor should be and what shouldn't and
all these things. No Scripture says, and it's very specific,
and you knew that going into it, Tom, and you
(21:23):
could quote it to me today and you said, for
that moment, that time, however long the affair lasted, that
it didn't matter. You said, I don't care, I want
this and I want it now, and you got it.
Thank Heaven that your wife is a godly woman who
(21:49):
allowed you back into the marital bed and in her life.
You should count your blessings there. And it doesn't mean
that you can't write about your experiences, that you can't
use it to be a teaching tool, That you'll never
(22:10):
use any of your abilities for God is a silly statement.
But you can't do that anymore because if you do that,
as it says in scripture, you crucify me twice. If
you do that, you stand and it doesn't show the
glory of forgiveness. It shows that nobody's watching the church
(22:35):
and nobody cares. And it's beyond just being human. It
was decisive, wouldn't you say, Tom, you made a decision
to do that. Yes, And aren't you man enough both
as a human and a Christian to receive those consequences
(22:58):
as they stand here on earth?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I would hope so.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Well, then why don't you move forward with that? An
opportunity doesn't mean it's a good one just because it exists.
There are Christians that ask the other Christians to do
things all the time that may not be good for them.
The hope is that you have your own set of
tools for discernment and the ability to go Nope, this
(23:24):
isn't right for me, because you know, one Christian can
say you want to come over, I'm having a wine
tasting and it's not a problem for them, and it's
not a sin. Yet you're asking an alcoholic a Christian
and for them it would be a sin to participate in.
(23:44):
You can't slap the face of God on this one, Tom,
and I know that's not what you were looking for.
And you were so very brave and you know to
take the time and to call and to share those
things and to explain what you've gone through. But I
think that the church waivers far too much on certain things.
(24:05):
And as I said, you know, my producer Neil couldn't
live up to what it takes to be a pastor,
which is why he's not and why he's got to
participate in a show like this too, hopefully show his
own love for God. Susan, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I just want to start by saying thank you very
much for your show. I really appreciate it, and I
learn a lot from it, so I look forward to
it every week.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Oh, you're very nice, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Okay, I have a question. I have two parts to it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I hope that.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Doesn't seem too foolish, but I wondered the Bible says
we are wonderfully and fearfully made. I wondered if there's
any spiritual connection or significance to men and beards. Okay,
And I have two questions to questions religious. At number one,
why did God create men to have beards? You know,
(25:13):
he career, they were created that way when all they
do is shave it off. And then the main reason
is my son decided to go a beard, and I
just thought, like most guys, he wanted to just give
his face a rest from shaving every day. But when
I asked him, I was very surprised to hear his answer.
He said he did some research on it, and in
(25:36):
Bible times the only men that were bare face, as
he says, were eunuchs and gays, and so he said,
I will never be bear faced again. And I thought
very strange. And I was just wondering if you had
any any thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Not true on a lot of different levels, and there's
so much which unfortunately we're not going to have time
to get through all of it, so I'll cut right
to the chase that the reason why there's beards is
because the bodies are adaptable. The bodies are adaptive to
their surroundings, and body hair is part of that process.
That's why you get you know, what people call goose
(26:19):
pimples or goosebumps and the hair stands on it and
stuff like that. That is a reaction to the surrounding
and your body adapting to it. And the little hairs
on your arms, the hairs on your face are all
there for protective reasons for different parts or different things
that were done that we're the roles of men and women.
That's why there's differences there. And you know, women may
(26:40):
carry fatty tissue in certain areas that men don't, et cetera.
Some people would say, well, that has to do with
the evolutionary process and all this. No, that's by design
and there's specifics to it and a biological specifics to
it that help with the individuals too. Aesthetics there air
aesthetic difference is just like you see in nature, specifically
(27:03):
for the appearance of you know if you see often
the male of the species often has the really colorful plumes,
and you think it would be the ladies, but not
necessarily true. And that's to attract a mate, and so
there's certain things about it being masculine and being distinct
from the female that becomes attractive. Doesn't mean that a
(27:25):
woman now likes a beard, but I will tell you
this that even women who like clean shaven men like
when a man has double sometimes and it gives that
look of relaxation and all these things. So there's aesthetic
things that go there. Scripturally, the reason why our Jewish
brothers and sisters would trim their beards, and now the
(27:49):
Orthodox Acidic Jews and the like will continue with this
process is because Leviticus nineteen twenty seven, specifically Leviticus nineteen
twenty seven talks about rounding the corner of your head.
So the beards and the sideburns were grown out, grown out,
and this part of the process of separating. The Levitical
laws were there to separate from the Pagans at the time,
(28:12):
and what the Pagans were doing, the our Jewish brothers
and sisters wouldn't be doing. So they would try and
separate themselves from the things that were going going on
in the day. Now, some of the pagans might have
and did practice in certain things, whether it be homosexuality
(28:32):
or what have you, and so that may be where
your son is kind of turning this up. But really
it's a it's a it's a far stretch, and I'm
not sure what your uh, you know, what your son
is protesting or what issues he's going through that he
feels the need to protest his sexuality or his lack
(28:55):
of a certain type of sexuality or I'm not sure
what's going on there or what your son is going through.
There might be that would be a time for another discussion,
is my guess. But that's the biblical tie in and
then biological tie in and all of that, and I
hope that that helps kf I am six forty on
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