March 23, 2025 • 16 mins
Dr. Wendy is talking to author, educator, and activist Tony Porter. He is co-founder of A CALL TO MEN and internationally recognized for his efforts to prevent violence against women while promoting a healthy, respectful, manhood. He has partnered up with Chispa, the Latin dating app where Latino & Latina singles can meet singles nearby.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI
AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Well,
I told you he was coming. I teased it, I
promised it. I have the official, the real Yes, Tony
Porter here from a Call to Men. Tony, thanks so
much for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you, Doctor Wendy for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm going to embarrass you because I'm going to read
a little bit of a resume in case there are
people out there who have not heard your name. I
think they're two living under a rock somewhere in the world.
So here we go. Tony Porter is an author, educator,
and activist who works on many social justice issues. He
founded an organization of called A Call to Men that
helps promote healthy, respectful manhood. I love that and many
(00:48):
men look up to him. He is a consultant for
the National Football League, the NBA, the NHL, Major League Soccer,
and even has talked at West Point and around the
world world. If you have not seen his Ted talk,
it is amazing. Look him up Tony Porter and it's
one of the top ten Ted talks every man should see.
(01:10):
He's the author of the book Breaking Out of the
man box. Thanks so much again for being here. Let's
talk about why you think this topic is so important
right now.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, it's important for many reasons right now as we
go into the future as men, you know, we continue
to have an epidemic of violence against women and girls
here in the United States of Americas, has stated by
the Center for Disease Control. We know that fifty percent
of excuse me, thirty percent of women who are killed
(01:47):
or killed by their husband, boyfriend, or partner. We know
that we live, unfortunately in a rape culture. We know
that one out of four women will be such the
assaulted during her four years and college. So when you
think about violence against women and girls, and while the
majority of men don't perpetrate the violence, the problem is
(02:10):
with silent to the violence, and it's happening on our watch.
And it's related to what we call the man box
that are called to men, the collective socialization of manhood,
as men would taught collectively to have less value in women,
to view women as the property of men, and to
view women as objects, particularly sexual objects. And again, while
(02:33):
most men don't perpetrate this violence, with silent to the violence,
and that's a youth.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Problem you know you mentioned these statistics about sexual violence,
rape assault. I've been very open in my many years
doing media that I am a survivor of domestic violence,
and I want to tell everybody that it crosses all social, racial,
and economic lines. In fact, probably hear less about the
(03:02):
domestic violence that happens in higher socioeconomic households because the
walls are thicker, the lawns are stretched out, their neighbors
aren't hearing the screaming, etc. And they're less reportable because
of the social shame around it all. But I just
want to say to any woman who's out there who
may be listening, is that this is never your fault,
(03:22):
and it happens to twenty five percent of women. One
in four women will experience domestic violence in their lifetime,
and there's nothing you can do to prevent it. This
is what Tony Porter is doing with his organization A
Call to Men, which is helping to get men to
stop this problem. Tell me about forming the organization A
(03:44):
Call to Men? When and why did you create it?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Created twenty three years ago myself and the other co
found the Ted Bunch. We were both working with men
who were abusive and what we realize is what we
were talking to teaching and in aging men who were abusive.
And these are men who were sent to us by
the courts. The time we were spending with them and
the things we were talking to them about, we realized
(04:10):
we needed to talk to all men about this information,
that it wasn't just the men who were abusive that
were the problem. In essence, we all had a hand
in it through our silence. So it was by way
of that that we decided to start a call to
men to no longer just work with men who were abusive,
(04:30):
but to work with all men.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
So what can those other men do? What do you
suggest with their if they break out from their silence?
Is it about when they hear something or see something,
how should they react?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Well, that's part of it, you know. Part of it
is how we react in the presence of violence. But
equally important to our work at a call to men
is preventing the violence going upstream and prevent the violence
from happening at all. And that really speaks to the
teaching of men, boys, what it means to be a man,
(05:08):
and reteaching ourselves is men, what we've been taught that
it means to be a man. Again, we've been taught
to have less value. We've been taught women at the
property of men. We have been taught women are objects,
particularly sexual objects. Is the reteaching of what it means
to be a man, this collective socialization of manhood. So
(05:28):
our work is really rooted around preventing the violence.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So what are the hallmarks of healthy manhood in your mind?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well? And yet, and before I even share about that,
these same rigid notions of masculinity, they're not only fostering
this epidemic of violence against women and girls, they're hurting
men as well, and so men, so so much of
what we're taught that it means to be a man
is men don't ask for help. That asks me for
(05:58):
help is a sign of weakness. That's fostering an epidemic
of issues with we as men as well. Be it
our mental health, be it our physical health. This inability
to ask for help as men. And you couple that
with the lack of emotional intelligence we have because as men,
we're taught to shut down our feelings and emotions at
(06:21):
a very early age. The only emotion we give each
other permission to express is anger. So we have a
lack of emotional intelligence and this inability to ask for help.
When you put that together, you can see the mental
health challenges it's created for we as men. We know
that approximately six million men every year go undiagnosed for
(06:42):
anxiety and depression. We know men complete suicide four times
that the rate of women. We know men don't practice
preventative health care medicine. We know that men who are
partners are actually healthier than men who are single, and
it really has nothing to do with the man is
more about that partner in his life. So this thing
(07:04):
around help being taught that help is a sign of
weakness is really killing us as men. So the things
that we're talking about right now, and not only fostering
and epidemical violence against women and girls, they're also hurting
men as well. So when you ask about what are
some healthy masculinity, healthy manhood solutions, one is embracing our
(07:29):
full range of emotions. That is okay not to just
talk about anger, but to talk about fear, to talk
about pain. As men, we talk about the importance of
value on women in our lives and that women are
not the property of men. To stop using denigrating language,
and to such as it relates to women to challenge
(07:49):
harmful messages in respect to gender. All right, that is
okay to hav an interest in the experience of women
and girls, and now particularly teaching this our boys, that
it's okay to have an interest in the experience of
women and girls. Of sexual conquest is not a goal.
And of course, as I mentioned, asking for help is
(08:09):
not a sign of weakness, is actually a sign of strength.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Tony Porter, we got to go to a break, Tony
Porter of A Call to Men. When we come back,
I want to talk about how our culture is finally
starting to spread. Your message from Ted Lasso to comedian
Bill Burr will touch on it, as well as your
partnership with the biggest Latino dating app. My guest, Tony Porter,
founder of A Call to Men, has been teaching healthy
(08:35):
manhood for decades. I don't know if you've seen Tony.
Last night, I watched a new Netflix comedy special by
the comedian Bill Burr, who is a normally loud, raunchy,
angry comedian, and he talked about how the death of
his friend caused him to start to connect with his
wife and eventually his feelings and he talks about how
(08:58):
the only two emotions men are allowed to feel are
fine and angry, and when he actually sat with these
feelings wrapped in a blanket, how much better he felt
just by allowing himself to experience it. I also noticed
Ted Lasso just got picked up for a third season,
and that certainly is one TV series that's working to
(09:19):
break out, helping many men athletes in that show break
out of the man box. Do you think our culture
is finally hearing what you've been screaming from the mountaintops
for a few decades.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
You know, we're having some wonderful examples of that. You
gave two and both examples you gave. Also, I know
we're going to talk about Chispa, the dating app for
the LATINX community, what we're trying to do at a
call to men, And again the examples you gave are
(09:51):
excellent examples of using culture to impact culture. Right that,
of course, we can teach him in school and other places.
But you what's out there already that people are really
invested in and making use of and is not going anywhere,
by the way, how do we use culture to impact culture?
So when we find it in the Entertainment Committee and
(10:13):
places like that is very, very helpful. There's a new
Netflix mini series called Adolescence. I believe that really really
leans into what we're teaching boys about what it means
to be a man and many of the challenges that
comes with that.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm glad that's happening. I notice you use the term
the man box, and of course the famous international study
called the man Box I teach in my developmental psychology class.
What I find interesting is that you have partnered with Chispa,
which is the largest Latino dating app, to help men
of a certain culture break out of their own version
(10:54):
of the man box. What is the man box and
what do Latin Why do matt Many Latin men feel
more trapped in it.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, in the Latin community they call it machiese mo.
And I got to be honest with you, I don't
culturally believe that LATINX men are more tracked in it
than other men. I believe each cultural group has their
examples of it, and we're all caught up in it.
In that box, men are taught to be tough, strong, courageous. Again,
(11:29):
less value in women. Women as a property. Men don't
share their feelings or emotions you know that you can
only be heterosexual as a man. You can't be gay, queer,
any of the likes. Men must always be in control.
There's no space for vulnerability. Again, the only emotion that
(11:49):
we can express is anger. We have to be aggressive,
show no weakness, no fear. Young men today talk about
that you can't be soft as men. So there's a
lot of of in this box. The ingredients in this
box in many respects are holding us hostage, and we
(12:10):
as men are the ones that primarily hold each other
hostage to the box. And what's really key in this
box it leads very very little space for men to
be their authentic selves. We have to be a role
self worth, a whole self.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So after the next break, I am going to share
some of the tips that your organization, A Call to Men,
has come up with when partnering with CHISPA. So I
will go through don't go away people, Gus. I will
go through ten tips for men really not just Latin men,
for men to use on dating sites to have better
luck in having an authentic, healthy relationship. But before we go,
(12:50):
Tony Porter, I've got to ask you. I know you
have spoken to the most masculine groups of men on
the planet from the NFL to West Point. How has
our current political climate impacted your work here in America?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Well, you know, our political climate is really not much
different than whether we're talking about sports organization or other
spaces men men where you find men, where we congregate.
You know, we take a couple of steps forward, we
take a couple of steps back. That's the work of
social justice, social movement work. You know, the political climate
(13:33):
is just another example of the work that's in front
of us as men to do well.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I want you to keep up with the good work
that you're doing. Earlier in the show tonight, I was
talking about the World Happiness Report that just came out
and that America has sunk out of the top twenty
down to twenty four, and those Nordic countries are way
there at the top. And you know, my daughter spent
some time studying in Sweden that I visited her a
(14:00):
couple times, and I was amazed to see how many tattooed,
musclely bearded men were wearing babies around and hanging out
in groups of guys changing diapers and coffee shops. And
I realized it was partly because of what the government
there does. They make both partners share in the time
off and get paid for parental leave. It's not called
(14:23):
maternity leave. It's parental leave, and both partners have to
take a piece of it. Do you think we'll ever
get that there in America?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
We might not be where there are, but we have
examples of it. I mean, I remember the time when
we didn't have changing stations in men's bathrooms. We have
those today. We have you know, the backsacks of front
sacks that men use carrying I see it's not abnormal
to see men moving around the country with a baby
on their front or a baby on their back. We
(14:53):
have those, you know, we have our examples of those.
You might find some countries, of course, that are further
a law the game than we are, but we're in
it as men. We work a lot with men and
fatherhood programs and where men are really learning how to
not just coach our children, but to nurse our children,
(15:14):
and to love our children, and the importance of being
loving with our children and not just coaching. And and
we have paternity leave here in our country for men.
I just had a staff member that was just on
a male identified staff member that was just on three
months fraternity leave, and so we have our examples of it.
(15:35):
Some countries maybe further along, and some countries are not
quite where we are. But I've been doing this work
for twenty plus years. I'm blessed to have seen some examples,
many examples of change is taking place here. And I've
spent many places abroad and so in other places as well.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Tony Porter, a pleasure to meet you, founder of A
Call to Men. Thank you for being with us when
we come back.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I've got news from his group, A Call to Men
and the Latino dating site chis but ten tips for
men on how to use dating sites and apps for success.
You're listening to doctor Wendy Walls show on KFI Am
six forty were live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Right now,
let's go to the twenty four hour KFI Newsroom
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI
AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Well,
I told you he was coming. I teased it, I
promised it. I have the official, the real Yes, Tony
Porter here from a Call to Men. Tony, thanks so
much for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you, Doctor Wendy for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm going to embarrass you because I'm going to read
a little bit of a resume in case there are
people out there who have not heard your name. I
think they're two living under a rock somewhere in the world.
So here we go. Tony Porter is an author, educator,
and activist who works on many social justice issues. He
founded an organization of called A Call to Men that
helps promote healthy, respectful manhood. I love that and many
(00:48):
men look up to him. He is a consultant for
the National Football League, the NBA, the NHL, Major League Soccer,
and even has talked at West Point and around the
world world. If you have not seen his Ted talk,
it is amazing. Look him up Tony Porter and it's
one of the top ten Ted talks every man should see.
(01:10):
He's the author of the book Breaking Out of the
man box. Thanks so much again for being here. Let's
talk about why you think this topic is so important
right now.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, it's important for many reasons right now as we
go into the future as men, you know, we continue
to have an epidemic of violence against women and girls
here in the United States of Americas, has stated by
the Center for Disease Control. We know that fifty percent
of excuse me, thirty percent of women who are killed
(01:47):
or killed by their husband, boyfriend, or partner. We know
that we live, unfortunately in a rape culture. We know
that one out of four women will be such the
assaulted during her four years and college. So when you
think about violence against women and girls, and while the
majority of men don't perpetrate the violence, the problem is
(02:10):
with silent to the violence, and it's happening on our watch.
And it's related to what we call the man box
that are called to men, the collective socialization of manhood,
as men would taught collectively to have less value in women,
to view women as the property of men, and to
view women as objects, particularly sexual objects. And again, while
(02:33):
most men don't perpetrate this violence, with silent to the violence,
and that's a youth.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Problem you know you mentioned these statistics about sexual violence,
rape assault. I've been very open in my many years
doing media that I am a survivor of domestic violence,
and I want to tell everybody that it crosses all social, racial,
and economic lines. In fact, probably hear less about the
(03:02):
domestic violence that happens in higher socioeconomic households because the
walls are thicker, the lawns are stretched out, their neighbors
aren't hearing the screaming, etc. And they're less reportable because
of the social shame around it all. But I just
want to say to any woman who's out there who
may be listening, is that this is never your fault,
(03:22):
and it happens to twenty five percent of women. One
in four women will experience domestic violence in their lifetime,
and there's nothing you can do to prevent it. This
is what Tony Porter is doing with his organization A
Call to Men, which is helping to get men to
stop this problem. Tell me about forming the organization A
(03:44):
Call to Men? When and why did you create it?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Created twenty three years ago myself and the other co
found the Ted Bunch. We were both working with men
who were abusive and what we realize is what we
were talking to teaching and in aging men who were abusive.
And these are men who were sent to us by
the courts. The time we were spending with them and
the things we were talking to them about, we realized
(04:10):
we needed to talk to all men about this information,
that it wasn't just the men who were abusive that
were the problem. In essence, we all had a hand
in it through our silence. So it was by way
of that that we decided to start a call to
men to no longer just work with men who were abusive,
(04:30):
but to work with all men.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
So what can those other men do? What do you
suggest with their if they break out from their silence?
Is it about when they hear something or see something,
how should they react?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Well, that's part of it, you know. Part of it
is how we react in the presence of violence. But
equally important to our work at a call to men
is preventing the violence going upstream and prevent the violence
from happening at all. And that really speaks to the
teaching of men, boys, what it means to be a man,
(05:08):
and reteaching ourselves is men, what we've been taught that
it means to be a man. Again, we've been taught
to have less value. We've been taught women at the
property of men. We have been taught women are objects,
particularly sexual objects. Is the reteaching of what it means
to be a man, this collective socialization of manhood. So
(05:28):
our work is really rooted around preventing the violence.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So what are the hallmarks of healthy manhood in your mind?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well? And yet, and before I even share about that,
these same rigid notions of masculinity, they're not only fostering
this epidemic of violence against women and girls, they're hurting
men as well, and so men, so so much of
what we're taught that it means to be a man
is men don't ask for help. That asks me for
(05:58):
help is a sign of weakness. That's fostering an epidemic
of issues with we as men as well. Be it
our mental health, be it our physical health. This inability
to ask for help as men. And you couple that
with the lack of emotional intelligence we have because as men,
we're taught to shut down our feelings and emotions at
(06:21):
a very early age. The only emotion we give each
other permission to express is anger. So we have a
lack of emotional intelligence and this inability to ask for help.
When you put that together, you can see the mental
health challenges it's created for we as men. We know
that approximately six million men every year go undiagnosed for
(06:42):
anxiety and depression. We know men complete suicide four times
that the rate of women. We know men don't practice
preventative health care medicine. We know that men who are
partners are actually healthier than men who are single, and
it really has nothing to do with the man is
more about that partner in his life. So this thing
(07:04):
around help being taught that help is a sign of
weakness is really killing us as men. So the things
that we're talking about right now, and not only fostering
and epidemical violence against women and girls, they're also hurting
men as well. So when you ask about what are
some healthy masculinity, healthy manhood solutions, one is embracing our
(07:29):
full range of emotions. That is okay not to just
talk about anger, but to talk about fear, to talk
about pain. As men, we talk about the importance of
value on women in our lives and that women are
not the property of men. To stop using denigrating language,
and to such as it relates to women to challenge
(07:49):
harmful messages in respect to gender. All right, that is
okay to hav an interest in the experience of women
and girls, and now particularly teaching this our boys, that
it's okay to have an interest in the experience of
women and girls. Of sexual conquest is not a goal.
And of course, as I mentioned, asking for help is
(08:09):
not a sign of weakness, is actually a sign of strength.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Tony Porter, we got to go to a break, Tony
Porter of A Call to Men. When we come back,
I want to talk about how our culture is finally
starting to spread. Your message from Ted Lasso to comedian
Bill Burr will touch on it, as well as your
partnership with the biggest Latino dating app. My guest, Tony Porter,
founder of A Call to Men, has been teaching healthy
(08:35):
manhood for decades. I don't know if you've seen Tony.
Last night, I watched a new Netflix comedy special by
the comedian Bill Burr, who is a normally loud, raunchy,
angry comedian, and he talked about how the death of
his friend caused him to start to connect with his
wife and eventually his feelings and he talks about how
(08:58):
the only two emotions men are allowed to feel are
fine and angry, and when he actually sat with these
feelings wrapped in a blanket, how much better he felt
just by allowing himself to experience it. I also noticed
Ted Lasso just got picked up for a third season,
and that certainly is one TV series that's working to
(09:19):
break out, helping many men athletes in that show break
out of the man box. Do you think our culture
is finally hearing what you've been screaming from the mountaintops
for a few decades.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
You know, we're having some wonderful examples of that. You
gave two and both examples you gave. Also, I know
we're going to talk about Chispa, the dating app for
the LATINX community, what we're trying to do at a
call to men, And again the examples you gave are
(09:51):
excellent examples of using culture to impact culture. Right that,
of course, we can teach him in school and other places.
But you what's out there already that people are really
invested in and making use of and is not going anywhere,
by the way, how do we use culture to impact culture?
So when we find it in the Entertainment Committee and
(10:13):
places like that is very, very helpful. There's a new
Netflix mini series called Adolescence. I believe that really really
leans into what we're teaching boys about what it means
to be a man and many of the challenges that
comes with that.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm glad that's happening. I notice you use the term
the man box, and of course the famous international study
called the man Box I teach in my developmental psychology class.
What I find interesting is that you have partnered with Chispa,
which is the largest Latino dating app, to help men
of a certain culture break out of their own version
(10:54):
of the man box. What is the man box and
what do Latin Why do matt Many Latin men feel
more trapped in it.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, in the Latin community they call it machiese mo.
And I got to be honest with you, I don't
culturally believe that LATINX men are more tracked in it
than other men. I believe each cultural group has their
examples of it, and we're all caught up in it.
In that box, men are taught to be tough, strong, courageous. Again,
(11:29):
less value in women. Women as a property. Men don't
share their feelings or emotions you know that you can
only be heterosexual as a man. You can't be gay, queer,
any of the likes. Men must always be in control.
There's no space for vulnerability. Again, the only emotion that
(11:49):
we can express is anger. We have to be aggressive,
show no weakness, no fear. Young men today talk about
that you can't be soft as men. So there's a
lot of of in this box. The ingredients in this
box in many respects are holding us hostage, and we
(12:10):
as men are the ones that primarily hold each other
hostage to the box. And what's really key in this
box it leads very very little space for men to
be their authentic selves. We have to be a role
self worth, a whole self.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So after the next break, I am going to share
some of the tips that your organization, A Call to Men,
has come up with when partnering with CHISPA. So I
will go through don't go away people, Gus. I will
go through ten tips for men really not just Latin men,
for men to use on dating sites to have better
luck in having an authentic, healthy relationship. But before we go,
(12:50):
Tony Porter, I've got to ask you. I know you
have spoken to the most masculine groups of men on
the planet from the NFL to West Point. How has
our current political climate impacted your work here in America?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Well, you know, our political climate is really not much
different than whether we're talking about sports organization or other
spaces men men where you find men, where we congregate.
You know, we take a couple of steps forward, we
take a couple of steps back. That's the work of
social justice, social movement work. You know, the political climate
(13:33):
is just another example of the work that's in front
of us as men to do well.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I want you to keep up with the good work
that you're doing. Earlier in the show tonight, I was
talking about the World Happiness Report that just came out
and that America has sunk out of the top twenty
down to twenty four, and those Nordic countries are way
there at the top. And you know, my daughter spent
some time studying in Sweden that I visited her a
(14:00):
couple times, and I was amazed to see how many tattooed,
musclely bearded men were wearing babies around and hanging out
in groups of guys changing diapers and coffee shops. And
I realized it was partly because of what the government
there does. They make both partners share in the time
off and get paid for parental leave. It's not called
(14:23):
maternity leave. It's parental leave, and both partners have to
take a piece of it. Do you think we'll ever
get that there in America?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
We might not be where there are, but we have
examples of it. I mean, I remember the time when
we didn't have changing stations in men's bathrooms. We have
those today. We have you know, the backsacks of front
sacks that men use carrying I see it's not abnormal
to see men moving around the country with a baby
on their front or a baby on their back. We
(14:53):
have those, you know, we have our examples of those.
You might find some countries, of course, that are further
a law the game than we are, but we're in
it as men. We work a lot with men and
fatherhood programs and where men are really learning how to
not just coach our children, but to nurse our children,
(15:14):
and to love our children, and the importance of being
loving with our children and not just coaching. And and
we have paternity leave here in our country for men.
I just had a staff member that was just on
a male identified staff member that was just on three
months fraternity leave, and so we have our examples of it.
(15:35):
Some countries maybe further along, and some countries are not
quite where we are. But I've been doing this work
for twenty plus years. I'm blessed to have seen some examples,
many examples of change is taking place here. And I've
spent many places abroad and so in other places as well.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Tony Porter, a pleasure to meet you, founder of A
Call to Men. Thank you for being with us when
we come back.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I've got news from his group, A Call to Men
and the Latino dating site chis but ten tips for
men on how to use dating sites and apps for success.
You're listening to doctor Wendy Walls show on KFI Am
six forty were live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Right now,
let's go to the twenty four hour KFI Newsroom
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