Ben Greenfield: Blood Boys, Botox, and Biohacking Blunders

What if the key to an extraordinary life is becoming radically, unapologetically yourself?

Today, we’re here with the one-and-only Ben Greenfield, a man who has been pushing the boundaries of human performance for decades. In the ever-evolving world of biohacking, he’s tried just about everything so that you don’t have to.

But we’ve known each other and collaborated as fellow fitness nerds and OG Podcasters for many moons and through many stages of life, celebrating wins together, and even throwing each other a couple of alley-oops.

Ben's not just some fitness guru and ninja warrior, he's a devoted father and renaissance man who writes fiction, play guitar, snowboards, and knows how to survive in the wilderness in style.

There’s no one quite like Ben Greenfield, and I’m grateful to call him a friend.

On this show with Ben, you’ll discover:

• Ben’s latest adventures with botox, blood boys, and biohacking blunders
• Tips for raising a healthy family in the age of tech overload
• Ben’s strategy for reversing arterial calcification and plaque deposition
• The dangers of overtraining and how to find your sweet spot
• The art of being weird
• And much more…

I also want give a quick thank you to all of you who have reached out with well-wishes.

(In case you missed the previous episode, early this summer I was seriously injured in an a high-speed hit-and-run. I’m still recovering from a gnarly concussion, herniated discs, and ligament damage. The other driver fled, but I’m grateful to have a team of Docs and Pros helping me recover. I’m making good progress with physical and balance therapy and I’ll keep you all updated.)

This episode is brought to you by:
Troscriptions - Go to troscriptions.com/WILD or enter WILD at checkout for 10% off your first order.
Fresh Pressed Olive Oil Club - Go to GetFreshAbel.com to get your $39 bottle for just $1 shipping.
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To stay up to date on our next live events, shows and more, sign up for my newsletter at AbelJames.com, and check out my Substack at abeljames.substack.com. 

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:00):
Hey, folks. This is Abel James, and thanks so much for joining us on the show. What if the key to an extraordinary
life is becoming radically, unapologetically
yourself?
Today, we're here with the one and only Ben Greenfield,
a man who's been pushing the boundaries of human performance for decades.
It's hard to believe it's been nearly fourteen years since I first got a call out of the blue from a young Ben Greenfield, and I still to this day have no idea how he got my number. But we've known each other as fellow fitness nerds through many stages of life, celebrating wins together, and we've even thrown each other a couple of alley oops. But Ben is not just another fitness guru and ninja warrior. He's a devoted father and renaissance man who writes fiction,

(00:43):
plays guitar, snowboards,
and knows how to survive in the wilderness in style. There's no one quite like Ben Greenfield, and I'm grateful to call him a friend. Before we get to the interview, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for my newsletter
at abeljames.com.
That's abeljames.com
for updates about upcoming live events and more. And for an ad free version of this show and more behind the scenes goodies, check out my Substack at abeljames.substack.com.

(01:13):
Also, I really appreciate all of you who have reached out over the past couple months with the well wishes.
Long story short, I was injured in a freak hit and run car wreck. They still haven't found the guy as far as I know, but I'm a tough old bird, and I'm recovering well with lots of stories to share as I write my new book about longevity at the same time. So it'll be interesting, and and thanks once again for reaching out. I appreciate all of you. Alright. Onto the show with Ben. You're about to discover

(01:39):
Ben's latest adventures with Botox, Blood Boys, and biohacking blunders,
tips for raising a healthy family in the age of tech overload,
Ben's strategy for reversing arterial calcification
and plaque deposition,
the advantage of being weird, and much more. Let's go hang with Ben.

(08:30):
Welcome back, folks. The one and only Ben Greenfield is in the house. Biohacking maestro, devoted father, boundless author, and the guy who races cheetahs for cardio and sprints faster than your Wi Fi. We both go back to the days of when podcasting was audio only and often downloaded not to iPhones,
but iPods.
We have so much in common and are also delightfully different, and it's a pleasure to be with you today, my dude. Thanks for being here, Ben. Thanks, man. Did you say Cheetos?

(09:00):
Cheetos. Somebody said Cheetos. But I was thinking about this. I said Cheetos.
Cheetos works too. So we can raise four Cheetos. Right? There's nothing wrong with that for an endurance event of some kind. But,
we've known each other. I was I was trying to think about it, but thirteen or fourteen years. Do you remember the first time we crossed paths?
Man, now now I'm gonna feel like an asshole by saying no, but

(09:24):
we've been part of, like, a bunch of different groups and stuff, but no. I don't know. Well, we've crossed paths so many times over the years, but as I remember the first time, I think I had just spoken
at Dave Asprey's
Bulletproof Conference back then about music and the brain. Oh, like oh my gosh. You're right. Like, back like, back when the, the whatever it was called, the Bulletproof Conference,

(09:46):
it was, like, you and me and maybe, like, what, like, 20 people in a little
side room in San Francisco. Like yeah. I heard the other week. Like, he had, like, 4,000 people in,
wherever he did it. So, yeah, that was that was way back in the day. Good memory. Yeah. You talked about music and the brain. I remember that now. But somehow, you got my number out of nowhere, so I get this I get this call afterwards from this unknown number from wherever it was, Idaho or whatever. It's like, hi. This is Vic Greenfield, and I'm gonna talk about the pod. And no one had podcasts back then too. It was just basically, like, a handful of us. But I remember from all the way back then, you were so well researched, so genuinely curious and interested.

(10:26):
And that's something I really respect about you that you carry forward and I think inspire others to be that way too. But one thing I did wanna ask you maybe to start off is
the advantages of being weird and getting that pushback maybe early in life because you were also homeschooled and kind of, like, doing your own thing for a long time. What can you offer to people out there who are kind of encouraged

(10:46):
to be the same and blend in with the pack? You're a strong alternative
to that. Yeah. Thanks for the backhanded compliment. No. I it takes one to know one.
Yeah. I I was homeschooled, and I and I do think, you know, you you can learn quite a bit from
the,
I believe,
article or now book

(11:07):
somewhat viral at one time called five regrets of the dying by a palliative care practitioner
who basically highlights five things that people tend to regret on their deathbeds.
One is I wish I'd chosen to be happier. One is I wish I'd chosen to show my true emotions.
Let's see. There's there's the I wish I'd worked less,
which I think I'm kinda on that one because I feel like if you really enjoy what you do, I I don't feel like I'm gonna wish I worked less on my deathbed. Let me It's it's it's kinda semantics at some point too. Yeah. Exactly. I wish I'd stayed in touch with old friends, and then I wish I'd chosen to be my true authentic self instead of who I thought the world expected me to be, which is kind of related to the weirdness piece, like being okay with being weird. And I think

(11:53):
that
societally,
especially if we grow up or
or frequently operate in scenarios
in which we are part of a pretty well defined tribe
from an early age, we tend to learn to fall in line because, frankly, I mean, it it's a completely
evolutionary or ancestral, whatever you wanna call it, mechanism

(12:16):
to
not want to
be ostracized
or excommunicated
or banished in some way because, of course, you know, I'm I'm sure, you know, you've you've probably talked about this before, and you and I both know about this from, you know, the whole, like, evolutionary biology or paleo type of approach. If you were banished from the village, it would mean death. And even though

(12:36):
now,
when we are banished from our people, we're probably not gonna die because there's a grocery store around the corner, we still get the high heart rate. We get the high blood pressure. We get the cortisol release. We get the change of the genetic transcriptome for an upregulation of inflammatory cytokines and a downregulation of immune protective factors and all these things that happen
that put our bodies into freak out mode. So

(12:59):
if you grow up, you know, let's say homeschooled,
in a scenario in which you're
a little less likely to be ostracized
or banished or excommunicated
in some way because you've chosen to swim upstream
or be weird or defy the status quo,
your physiology
basically

(13:20):
associates a lot less danger
with you thinking outside the box because they're like, there's no tribe to get kicked out of, basically. So it's just fine to be dangerous because you're your own person anyways.
Thank you very much. I'm okay with being a lone wolf. So I think that you do get a little bit of that
with an alternative educational approach in which you don't have to basically

(13:44):
swim in the same group as the,
or or I I don't know. What do cheetahs do? Run-in the same flock as the cheetahs?
But, yeah, I I think that that's
I I think it's not something that you have to be homeschooled
to be able to
to develop,
but I think it's understanding
that
there's a way to be your own person

(14:06):
without being a total social outcast.
And I think that that's a good way to raise a kid to help them really understand that they can be their true authentic self. And it starts with the parent. Right? Making sure that your child is loved and seen and heard no matter who they are.
And given that, especially being a father, I know you have a certain stance on technology and keep good distance from it in in some cases.

(14:31):
But there's kind of this phenomenon of we were raised before you and I in our generations
before the front facing camera and a lot of this technology.
Essentially, our idea of ourself came mostly from, you know, our small social groups, and now we have this outside in kind of more superficial
approach. So like you were saying earlier,
how do you or how do they find their true selves in a sea of that sort of thing where they may be rewarded for the wrong sorts of things on the Internet, and it takes them down a certain path personality wise that's maybe not so natural in some cases?

(15:05):
Yeah. Yeah. No. I I run into that as a parent as well. I think even though I don't have the perfect answer, you know, a few things that we really focus on as parents is, first of all, I'm a big believer that if you make a thing a thing, it becomes a thing. So
when we raised our sons, we have twin sons, they're 17 years old now, their names are River and Taryn, we used a style of parenting that I didn't come up with, but that I think for the most part is called love and logic style parenting.

(15:34):
In a nutshell, what it means is you educate your child on the consequences of any decision that they might make in life, and then you let them deal with the consequences.
So
rather than having, like, you know, no gluten, no sugar, no snack food type of rule, even though you don't want a ton of that around the house to tempt them, if they decide they're gonna go out and, whatever, eat three cupcakes at Jimmy's birthday party, let them deal with the tummy ache or, you know, the poor sleep or whatever else happens as a consequence of that.

(16:06):
Or
if they decide that they are going to continue to go outside, run around the neighborhood with their shoes off, let them deal with the scrape, the cut, the bruise, etcetera that they get on their feet. Or if they're not gonna, whatever, apply bug spray, the the mosquito bites that they get. And, obviously, there's
limits to that. Like, if your toddler is, you know, ambling towards a hot stove, you don't let them, like, get a third degree burn and say, I see. I told you. And, you know, you you do wanna slap their hand away in some situations.

(16:33):
But, you know, I don't say
no porn in our household. Instead, I educate
my sons on websites like your brain on porn.com
and tell them about the impact that it has societally,
on the way that they view the opposite sex, on what it does to their brains. There is not a no alcohol
rule in our home when our box of Dry Farm wine shows up. You know, every month, we pass around a little shot glass. They get to taste the wines, taste the notes just like we do with olive oil and vinegar and let them appreciate and understand

(17:04):
that aspect of the culinary universe versus it being, oh, this is just what adults do, and someday you'll get drunk and find out, you know, with your friends at a party.
So with screens,
it's really the same thing. Like, I educate them about the impact of blue light on circadian rhythmicity,
on the difference between digital versus analog relationships,

(17:24):
on the importance of, you know, being outside in nature time, etcetera,
on the importance of mitigating your exposure to EMFs.
But when they got their first phone, literally, it was mom and I going on a date,
and we got a phone and left it with them and said, hey. Call us if you need anything. This is your phone now. Right? It wasn't like, you're 16, and, you know, here's some pompoms and glitter falling from the ceiling and a giant banner, and, you know, you get to go out and shop for your new phone. It's just like, yo. Here's this thing. It's useful. So we don't really have screen time rules in our home,

(17:54):
but a big part of love and logic is you have to set the example as a parent. Right? So if
you are educating your child about, let's say, alcohol
and not having a hard and fast no alcohol rule, like, mom and I rarely drink more than one glass of wine at the dinner table in front of our sons. And, occasionally, we will have a cocktail or two, and usually that's when we're out in a day. And we are very, you know, cautious about our alcohol use in front of our sons. Another example would be the phone. Or, like, if you're looking at your phone to check for that important email or you don't have your notifications off and the text message comes through at dinner time, your kid pays way more attention to how many times you're looking at your phone during dinner than they do to the words that are coming out of your mouth about screen time mitigation.

(18:41):
So, yeah, we're just very careful to set a good example and then not to make screen time usage a big thing. So one of my friends came and visited the house, and he loves Xbox. And so he just, like, buys he goes to Walmart and buys, like, this $800
Xbox. I don't even know what it is. I've never used it. But it's upstairs next to the TV. And so, you know, two, you know, 16, 17 year old boys that were 16 when he got you'd think they'd just be up there lounging on the couch in front of this Xbox all day.

(19:09):
I've seen them using it twice.
And the reason for that, I think, is because we have engineered
our entire home and land to be one giant playground.
I mean, we've got obstacle course and Frisbee golf course, and we converted the barn into pickleball, and we've got a pond with, you know, paddleboards on the edge of it. And there's, like, you know, paintball guns and airsoft guns. And, like, it's a fun place to be. And I think that, especially for kids, if you engineer the environment

(19:39):
to create a lot of more fun options than sitting inside playing video games, that also makes a little bit easier to have the no screen time rule and have it actually work because there's so many other fun things beyond screens.
Shifting gears slightly,
how far away
are we from at least one of the twins beating dad at some sort of game, physically speaking? Where where are we at? So, ping pong lasted seven years,

(20:06):
and then this it was like the the what's the guy the Roger Bannister effect where
one night, one of them beat me twenty two twenty, and, like, the next night, his brother beat me. That's not your weak spot.
Yeah. And it was it was it's literally it was kinda like yeah. It was like, oh, dad's beatable? Alright. Here we go. So they beat me in ping pong a few times since then. I've got a pretty good record. We trained for, like, eight months last year down down in your neck of the woods in Austin for one of those Spartan decafits,

(20:35):
and,
I wiped their ass on that one.
I was pretty proud about because I know that won't last too long. I I don't know. We still work out and stuff together, but at 17,
maybe I'm just choosing activities that I know they can't beat me at yet. But
so far,
I'm still
the house champion of
everything except those two ping pong games. But I know my time will come. You know? But but, like, seriously, I, like, I don't wanna sound hubristic, but I take really good care of myself, and I will I've always had this philosophy. Like, I wanna be like the 40, 50 year old guy and feel and operate like I could in my twenties.

(21:13):
And I think having them around does push me a little bit more, but I am proud of the fact that I I can still physically outcompete my sons. Yeah. Well and some people listening might not be aware of how much of an OG you actually are with all of this. This isn't some, like, new gimmick that that you're obsessed with health. You've literally put in decades and change

(21:34):
of studying all sorts of different disciplines and applying that. And, I'm curious how much for you in terms of whether it's performance, nutrition, fueling, that sort of thing has changed or how much have you changed your approach over the years versus just kind of learning more about how to apply the fundamental principles?
Oh, a ton. I mean, you know, I was the the highly masochistic,

(21:58):
you know, dude in spandex racing adventure races and Ironman triathlons around the globe for, like, fifteen years.
I raced professionally for Spartan, for Reebok for four years after that. You know, my average week was easily
and I I was still kinda like a minimalist training guy, like, even back in the day, mostly because
I wanted to make money and run my businesses and be a CEO and not a full time athlete. So, you know, I was training less than a lot of my peers, but still a solid, like, fourteen to eighteen hours a week of just, like, training.

(22:29):
And, really, it was
taking a deeper dive into biohacking,
blood and biomarker tracking, self quantification,
and seeing that I was healthy on the outside or apparently healthy on the outside, but unhealthy on the inside
that
kind of switch
my approach to training and exercise
overall. I mean, dialing things

(22:51):
way back. And this really agrees with the research if you look at a guy like, doctor James O'Keefe who has found kind of the Goldilocks zone of exercise
to be about no more than a hundred and fifty minutes of
moderate intensity exercise
per week and no more than seventy minutes of very, very high hard intensity exercise per week before

(23:13):
atherosclerosis
kicks in, arterial stiffness,
and,
decreased mortality,
which is a paradox for a lot of people who think exercise is healthy and also something that a lot of people don't need to hear. Right? So, like, you know, if if you're still in, you know, rolling a scooter around Walmart mode, like, what you need to hear is move more and eat less. But

(23:35):
if you're exercising really hard like I was, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm still dealing with the implications of that. I was hypogonadal.
I had a messed up thyroid,
rampant inflammation,
a lot of biological issues related to overtraining.
So now, you know, I walk. Obviously, I'm walking while I'm talking to you. You know, so I have a treadmill in my office.

(23:55):
I walk maybe
one to two hours a day. I lift weights,
four times a week for about an hour,
and then I typically have about three high intensity interval training sessions of around twenty minutes,
each week. And then everything else is like, you know, pickleball,
tennis,
you know, Frisbee golf, hanging out with the kids, you know, sometimes swimming.

(24:19):
So it's pretty reasonable compared to what it used to be. But, yeah, for me, one of the big things that changed was, you know, more exercise and more fitness
is better, and there there's a pretty stark difference between, you know, performance and health. Even, like, it was funny because last week, I was speaking to a professional football team, and
all the guys sitting in the front row were, like, the owners and the managers and the coaches.

(24:41):
And they were asking questions about their health and longevity
and, you know, inhibiting mTOR pathways and not having excess protein. And every response I gave to them to all the players in the room, I was like, ignore what I'm about to tell, you know, your coach here or your owner here. Ever almost everything
that increases longevity
is not synonymous

(25:02):
with increasing performance. And in fact, the two are often not parallel. Like, if you wanna be a professional athlete,
don't fool yourself into thinking that that's gonna track well with a lot of longevity markers. You know, maybe that's an okay chapter of your life at one time, but I'm certainly not in that chapter of life anymore.
So that's one thing. I got pretty hardcore into the keto low carb thing. Did you kinda get on that bandwagon

(25:25):
for a while too? I dipped into it for a while, but I've always been kind of moderate for a maverick.
Yeah. Because, I mean, like, I I did the University of Connecticut study with Jeff Volek where he had Yeah. Yeah. He was in the park. It's, like, go high, like, 90%
fat for twelve months.
And then another group of endurance athletes eat eat, well, basically, what the Gatorade Sports Science Institute was pushing out as carbohydrate recommendations, which I still think are too high, but it's like a 60 to 80% carbohydrate based diet.

(25:56):
And
the group that followed the
low carb keto diet, as did the other group, went in after twelve months and did a battery of exercise tests at University of Connecticut.
Like, I remember I showed up and they, like, did muscle biopsy,
like, a guillotine into the quads and fat biopsy.
I was walking around with a pee jug for twenty four hours to collect hormones.

(26:19):
We did a stool test.
They had me do a VO two max test, which is basically running until you fall off the back of the treadmill. Then I came in the next morning, and they gave me my pre
workout meal, which was basically,
like, one strawberry in a cup of heavy cream.
And so that's supposed to last me three hours for running on a treadmill because it's, you know, ketogenic or whatever. And then I I put on you gotta wear a mask that measures your carbon dioxide

(26:45):
exhaled and your oxygen consumed to approximate carbon fat burning, and then they have, like, a needle in the arm for measuring bloods. So I run three hours on the treadmill, no TV, no music, staring at a white wall, run 23 miles,
and then they they did that with all the other athletes.
And long story short is what they found out was that if you follow a high fat diet for a longer period of time than what research studies had done in the past because most studies before that were, like, you know, six weeks, twelve weeks, twenty weeks, whatever. This is a full year.

(27:17):
They essentially rewrote the physiology textbooks
displaying that, you know, whereas we thought you could burn, like, one gram of fat per minute, well, it turns out you can burn, like, 1.5
to two grams of fat per minute if you fat adapt and train yourself how to burn fat as a fuel. And, of course, a whole bunch of people, including myself, took that and ran with it, you know, literally and figuratively,

(27:40):
and began to heavily restrict carbohydrates because, you know, you could do just as good on fats and turn yourself into a fat burning machine.
But
what they don't tell you, you know, or what what tends to fly under the radar at least is
that type of carbohydrate restriction
paired with heavy amounts of physical activity
can lead to thyroid dysregulation,

(28:01):
and testosterone dysregulation,
and lack of proteoglycans
for joints, and all sorts of issues that I actually experience.
So I've, you know, I've kind of come full circle. I'm probably a little bit like you, very omnivorous.
Pretty wide ranging in terms of my macros.
Don't even pay that much attention to them.
I do

(28:21):
like, I'm cognizant of my sugar intake. I wear a CGM on my arm,
and I tend to eat kinda
like vegetable
protein fat most of the day and then do what I call a carb refeed at night. Right? I save the majority of my carbs for the evening just because that's usually the the most socially wide ranging meal. The meal where you might be out at a restaurant, the meal where you're eating more out with the family. I'm not a Brian Johnson finished dinner at 5PM guy, so or 11AM or whenever it is who finishes dinner. So I tend to eat a lot more carbs with dinner. I find it helps with sleep, kinda reloads the liver and the muscle glycogen stores for the workout the next day. Now I'm good to go. So so, yeah, those are a couple things, like exercising a lot, restricting carbs, definitely changed my mind on those.

(29:06):
Yeah. Interesting. Very similar to what I've experienced and continue to do. But I'm curious, any surprises from the CGM?
I think most of the surprises,
a lot of people know about now.
But a couple that come to mind are,
you know, the slow carb thing back to the carbs. I was eating some slow carbs. You know, if you were to read, like, I don't know, Tim Ferris's four hour body or whatever, you know, all of them are in there. And I was getting blood glucose spikes, and it turns out I have, like, an autoimmune

(29:35):
white blood cell reaction to beans and legumes.
Like, my body just does not do well with them. So even though they're slow carbs,
the hypercortisolic
response that I get from eating a food I'm intolerant or mildly allergic to causes a blood sugar reaction.
So that's interesting and and kinda shows you how you can personalize your diet. You don't necessarily wanna restrict foods based on your CGM data, but

(29:59):
if your CGM data is showing you having a blood sugar spike to foods that you would not expect to spike your blood sugar, you should go get a food allergy test and see if you actually do have a true, you know, IgE, IgA,
IgG sensitivity to those tests.
Another one is that, you know, we know walking before and after a meal controls blood glucose, which is awesome, and and a lot of people know that,

(30:22):
as does lifting weights, especially because
of the acute weightlifting response, but also the fact that long term
muscle can serve as a metabolic sink and kinda soak up glucose out of the bloodstream.
But then hold, for me,
beats
walking
or weightlifting
hands down. The extent to which my blood glucose will stay stable even after, like, a like a Thanksgiving

(30:46):
meal style
face feeding
Cheeto
fest, whatever, getting in cold water is like a cheat code if you're gonna go have a big meal, especially a meal that contains an appreciable amount of carbohydrates.
And even though a lot of people don't wanna go jump in a cold bath after, whatever,
a hot date out where you punished half of the bread basket, afterwards,

(31:07):
it it'll have the same effect. So
cold was another surprising one. And then
two other things that were interesting.
One
is that
I've noticed if I'm fasting
and I start to go out and be physically active, if my blood sugar is low, which it can be if you're fasting, you're totally flat during a workout.

(31:28):
But if you have some of those ketones, like liquid ketones,
I can go and go and go and have a blood glucose of, like, 50 to 60, which is what you'd expect because they kinda, like, give your body an alternate fuel source. But it's cool to see it in action and see that it's low on the CGM and see that happen. And then the last thing was
I interviewed
on my podcast

(31:49):
a doctor who specializes in the use of
Ozempic
and GLP one peptides
and is into the concept of microdosing with them, which I think is a reasonable idea. You know, using less than a doctor would normally prescribe to
kinda skirt some of the GI effects and muscle loss effects,
but still get some of the appetite suppression effects. And as I found out from her,

(32:13):
like pleiotropic or system wide effects that go beyond just appetite regulation, like blood pressure,
you know, risk of dementia,
cognition,
cardiovascular health, etcetera.
So
what I did
leading up to that podcast
was
I got GLP-one peptide
and I injected. I didn't get the full load pen, but I was basically microdosing with it.

(32:36):
I,
as would be expected, was not very hungry.
Even though I wanted to eat, I just didn't have an urs tea. I was eating a lot less. And so when I'd go to sleep at night, my blood glucose levels
were really low. And usually and this is true for a lot of people. If your blood glucose levels are low,
usually you wake up sometime between about 1AM and 3AM,

(32:58):
and that's like this hypercortisolic
response again to cause your liver to release glucose
to kinda give you energy to get through the night, but that cortisol wakes you up. And so a lot of people have, like, wakings in that range because they just didn't eat enough food or didn't eat enough carbs. You know, another reason why eating carbs with dinner can help with sleep.

(33:20):
But because I was using this medication,
I wasn't as hungry. So I was having low blood glucose during the night,
but I was sleeping like a baby. I would get up in the morning, I'd be like, wait. And I look at my blood glucose. I should have woke up at, like, 1AM or 2AM last night because my blood glucose was in the fifties, and I just didn't. So that was surprising that there's something about these

(33:41):
GLP-one peptides that help you to almost,
kinda like using ketones,
function and do okay, but on low blood glucose. You know, almost like they keep you from being
awake and hangry.
Yeah. That's fascinating.
Now what about I know I've heard you outline some of the protocols that you use to reverse the damages,

(34:03):
of overtraining, especially
as it relates to the heart and circulatory system. What did that look like for you, or what does that still look like?
Yeah. Well,
you know, in addition to, like, the arterial stiffness,
the atherosclerosis
that I was talking about that that doctor James O'Keefe has produced the lion's share of research about when it comes to how too much exercise

(34:24):
can create arterial stiffness. What you also see
is if cardiovascular
tissue
has inflammation or long periods of time with hypoxia
or excess workload as would happen, you know, in somebody like me, an Ironman triathlete or a six times a week CrossFitter
or a marathoner or anybody who's putting their body through a pretty rigorous workload,

(34:46):
you tend to see plaque deposition because that's how the body patches stuff up. Right? It is with these these foam cells that eventually harden and become plaque as white blood cells migrate to the area to help heal tissue. It's the body's natural healing response,
but plaque is plaque. You know, and as plaque progresses, you can get stenosis or a narrowing of the vessel if the plaque really starts to pack on more plaque and starts to create just a, you know, a a smaller and smaller diameter

(35:13):
garden hose for the blood to pass through. So
the good part about this is that when you see plaque deposition in athletes or exercising individuals,
it is typically more what's called stable plaque.
Stable plaque is a lot less likely to
break loose and cause issues like a stroke or cardiovascular

(35:35):
incident like like a heart attack,
but it's still risky.
Now if you were to get a test,
you can actually see what kind of plaque deposition
that you have.
The
most common medical test to do this is called a CT angiography.
Now CT angiography is great because it will show you if you have plaque deposition

(35:57):
and a newer test called a Clearly scan, which a lot of doctors now use, will show you not only if you have plaque deposition,
whether that plaque is stable or unstable
and where it's at. So that's a super useful test. And I think especially men, you know, who like exercising men who think they're super heart healthy and have a great lipid panel, I fell into that category.

(36:20):
It's shocking now how many guys I've seen come out of that test and be like, woah. I guess I do have issues that I need to work on because my heart's gotten pretty beat up from all these years of training.
The problem with the CT angiography
is you can't use it to
or you shouldn't use it to track heart health long term or track plaque long term because it does involve a pretty massive dose of radiation.

(36:45):
However, using that as the first baseline test that you get can tell you a lot because it's the most accurate way to do it. Now then the question becomes, well, how do I test this going forward?
There's another test called the CIMT.
I just had another follow-up CIMT like two weeks ago. That stands for carotid intima media thickness score. And the CIMT

(37:06):
uses
no radiation,
totally noninvasive,
dirt cheap, or at least relatively cheap compared to a CTN geography.
It's an ultrasound scan of the carotid, as the name implies, either side of your neck. Get a readout on a screen, and it tells you the plaque in the carotid, which
correlates as long as the practitioner

(37:27):
doing it is doing it right and interpreting the data correctly,
which nowadays is easy because most of that is done by software,
correlates with about 97 to 98% accuracy
with the CTN geography.
So
that's how you can actually test it. And that was where I found when I did the CT angiography
and also verified with follow-up CIMTs,

(37:49):
I've got plaque deposition.
Not because I'm, you know, fat, sick, and unhealthy and eating, we'll change the snack products, Doritos on the couch tonight. It's just because I'm really pushing myself.
So that's great to know, but the question becomes, well, is it a doom scroll? You know, you're just, like, stuck with this potential
I hate this name. Like, do your potential widowmaker, you know, which is actually

(38:10):
one of the vessels that's most problematic. And I actually have, like, 8% plaque deposition in my LVA,
my widow maker, which
sounds like a lot, but I've seen guys with a lot more than that. So what do you do about it? Well,
a standard
medical approach,
which there's a pretty robust body of research to show this actually works,

(38:32):
is a lodostatin
combo,
typically
one called rosuvastatin
and one called ezetimibe,
combined
with a newer drug called a PCSK nine inhibitor,
which basically upregulates the density of your LDL receptors to pull LDL out of the blood. The PCSK nine is a twice a month injection, and then the low dose statin, you just take that daily.

(38:55):
It's an approach that can work, but as you know, Abel, like with pharmaceuticals,
you tend to have to look a little bit more deeply at the long term implications. You know, in the case of statins, for example, you can see muscle wasting,
paradoxically, some atrophy of cardiovascular tissue.
You can see loss of co q 10. Some of this can be mitigated via supplementation,

(39:16):
but I think that
there are some natural approaches that you can look at
and that you can use a CIMT to track
before you pull out the bigger guns. So a few of those
most promising ones, like, I'll I'll give you, like, the the biggest bang for your buck ones. One is high dose niacin.
This is the

(39:37):
same type of thing that causes flushing because you get such a big,
almost like like vasodilatory
effect. But as you can imagine, that's great for the heart. You know, eating
beets and pomegranate
and, you know, even typical things you'd find in a pre workout like arginine or or
nitric oxide precursor.
I mean, for some guys even like Viagra or, you know, sildenafil or tadalafil or one of the Viagra like ingredients,

(40:03):
All of those are pretty good, and there's no reason you can't stack those together. You have to pay attention to your blood pressure if you do because sometimes you take too much of that stuff and the blood pressure can drop too low. But niacin is the one that seems to be the biggest sledgehammer, especially for the plaque piece. So that's one. It's high dose niacin.
Another one is,

(40:24):
let me ask you this. Have you been to Japan?
Not yet. Okay. Alright. Great country,
and I actually used to race triathlons there. What I used to have for breakfast in Japan
was white rice,
a seaweed wrap, like the nori seaweed wrap, mustard, and these slimy beans called natto. It's basically like a fermented soybean. And you can make well, you can make natto. It's kinda

(40:46):
laborious. It's it's like I've I've done it before,
and let me put it this way. It's easier to buy at the local Asian food market.
Anyways, though, natto is chock full of nattokinase,
and nattokinase
is kind of like a plaque dissolving
natural compounds, like an enzyme that can degrade plaque. So we're not talking about stopping the progression of plaque. We're actually talking about the capability to regress

(41:11):
plaque, especially when you've got something that opens up the vasculature
like niacin on board. So nattokinase,
you can get that as a supplement.
You can eat slimy fermented soybeans for breakfast. You can do both, but that'll be another one.
Vitamin k in all three forms,
incredibly important
for,

(41:31):
not only stopping the progression of plaque, but in some cases, it might help with plaque regression.
I think vitamin k is a great
supplement anyways
just for general health, bone health, teeth health, etcetera.
But, vitamin k one, k two, I think the last one is called, like, menaquinone,
something like that. Anyways, there's there's, like, three different forms. But getting all the different forms of vitamin k, that's another big win.

(41:57):
And then magnesium
would be the last one that I think is is super important. You take those type of things, and then you pair them with the lifestyle practices
that you would assume would be good aerobic exercise,
infrared sauna,
sweating, hot cold contrast, anything that's kind of moving blood around the body, the same type of thing an athlete might do on recovery day, that can be super helpful for the plaque piece as well. Long story short

(42:22):
is that, you know, if a typical
healthy person, I know a lot of your listeners are healthy, Abel,
is testing their lipid panel, you know, whatever, you know, function health or or Xiphox. You know, there's there's so many companies testing this now, and they're getting good lipids.
That doesn't mean everything's okay. And I think especially if you've been pushing your body hard, it's a good idea to get a CT angiography

(42:47):
or a CIMT.
If you show plaque, don't freak out.
Don't go to the big shotgun drugs first, at least in my opinion. I'm not a doctor, but but I wouldn't.
But first, try things like niacin, nattokinase,
magnesium,
adjust your exercise intensity,
start hitting the sauna, do some hot cold contrast, etcetera.
Because you can regress plaque. It's it's not a,

(43:09):
like I said, it's not a total doom scroll.
What about your risk tolerance
for kind of, like, new or experimental procedures or even proven
procedures that you're subjecting yourself to. How do you evaluate these sorts of things and whether they're worth it or not?
I mean, you just inject the stem cells in your penis and see if it turns blue, it falls off. And if it does

(43:32):
Typical Tuesday for Ben Green. Oh, happy wife, happy wife thing in terms
of a really relevant scenario.
You know, there in the whole biohacking industry at least, you know, there is a certain pioneering component.
Not only that, but there's also the component of, well, you know, I'm taking, whatever, 50 different supplements
and doing, you know, five different types of workouts. Who's to say unless I do a strict washout period? You know, how much of an effect this actually has and how much of it is is a combinatorial

(44:01):
effect from these other things that I'm doing. So for me personally,
I do take a pretty good dive into the research. GPT has made that way easier
because it's getting better and better and better and better for me to be able to actually say and I'm look. I'm I'm totally not I'm not wanting this to be crass,
but this is what comes to mind. You know,

(44:22):
the whole, like, stem cells in the penis thing. When I was down in Austin last time, I went to a place called Austin Regenerative Therapy.
There were two procedures
that they
wanted to do on me that at first glance you might think are totally fringe, like there can't be any research on this type of procedures.
One was
therapeutic

(44:43):
plasma replacement, which you can only do in the state of Texas.
This is different than therapeutic plasma exchange where they take out your plasma
and then replace that with albumin
and some vitamins and nutrients and minerals. This is actually taking out your plasma
and replacing
it with, in my case, that of a young, healthy eighteen to twenty five year old male donor population.

(45:06):
So for three days, I sat there on her feet, received 10 bags of plasma infusion.
And by the way, I felt incredible afterwards.
And then the other one was Botox. My wife asked me
why I was getting Botox,
especially why I was getting Botox in my penis, which is what they do. They call it it's a horrible name. They call it, like, p oh, PTox.

(45:28):
PTox. I'm like, I don't why don't you call this, like I told them, why don't you call it bonus or something like like, PTox sounds horrible. And my wife's like, why are you injecting a paralytic toxin into your dick?
Turns out what the mechanism of action is supposed to be is that it relaxes smooth muscle. And by doing so, because the smooth muscle has become paralyzed to a certain extent, you get

(45:51):
increased vasodilatory
capacity and more blood flow into the area. So for me,
you know, for both of those things, I went and I actually dug into PubMed and looked at, well, is there actual research on
therapeutic plasma replacement
for
longevity,
or for reducing all cause risk of mortality?
And is there effect of

(46:11):
Botox on penile function in men? And it turns out that there actually is a robust body of research on both. So, know, in a situation like that, I think research helps a ton. There's still an n equals one type of components, granted a lot of the research is not super long term, you know, human clinical research.
But, you know so, yeah, there is a risk there is a risk component, certainly.

(46:34):
But I do try to pay attention to the research. And then I also will, of course, when you look at the research, and you know this, Abel, this is a huge problem in the supplements industry. The research will say, well, sure. There's great
data on whatever, red Korean natto ginseng or whatever. And so you'll get your supplement, but it turns out they've got, like, you know, one twelfth the dose that's actually used in him and his research, and they're fairy dusting. And so I'll look at that too. I'll be like, well, is the research that this works, and does this product actually

(47:06):
contain or use the modality
or ingredient that they actually
used in the research?
And you've, also injected stem cells in other parts of your body.
Tell us about that. And, also, it can go wrong. Right? So it's it's worth acknowledging that this isn't isn't something that you should just rush into.
I've been utilizing stem cells in my own health and longevity routine

(47:29):
for probably
almost ten years.
I've done everything from the full body stem cell protocol
in Park City, Utah with a doctor named doctor Harry Adelson three times where they go head to toe in every joint with, like, a bone marrow stem cell soup. I've done stem cell infusions with what are called MUSELLS, which are a

(47:49):
newer form of stem cell
that is capable
of
transforming into different types of cells for tissue healing, but with a very, very low risk of what's called teratogenicity,
which is its potential for causing cancer, which can be an issue with stem cells that have been expanded
or
grown for too long a period of time.

(48:11):
I've combined stem cells with exosomes, which are the little signaling packets that allow stem cells to to talk better to
the tissues.
Probably done just about every type of stem cell therapy
that one could get, and
it can go wrong. It can go terribly wrong. Gosh. I remember I was down in Florida, and both my wife and I were harvesting our stem cells.

(48:35):
They were harvesting our fat
to store the stem cells from our fat
for storage for future injuries, for future therapies, etcetera.
The day after I got my fat cells extracted
at this clinic,
it was called the I think it was called the American Stem Cell Institute. It's It's pretty long ago in Florida. They got raided,

(48:57):
I believe it was the FDA,
for
a series of procedures that they'd done in which patients had become blinded
by a stem cell procedure gone wrong to the eyes.
Another
case,
was with a very well known
medical practitioner
who
last year nearly

(49:18):
died,
from the same spinal infection that I've seen occur in three other individuals,
including notable celebrities who have gone
to Mexico,
typically it's Mexico,
to do stem cell treatments in the spine.
I can tell you, Abel, that the
issue is not

(49:38):
the stem cells.
It is usually the way in which they are stored,
shipped, and handled
so there can be contamination.
Although most stem cells these days are pretty pure, it's not the purification process. It's what happens during the handling leading up the procedure, or
the procedure is done improperly
or in a sloppy manner. And that is why

(50:01):
you really have to do your research before working with anybody. Like, you don't wanna just, like, go to the fly by night budget two for one clinic in Tijuana or whatever to get stem cells done. You wanna go to clinics that have a robust reputation. You wanna call people or talk to people who have been there and been treated before.
You wanna run it by respected physicians in the industry in the regenerative medicine space. So,

(50:24):
yeah, stem cells
are
not that dangerous. It's the way that they're administered
that can cause issues.
What about, to make this question short, longevity as a death avoidance
cult
and the alternative to that. I've heard you speak about this in a few ways. And you're also a deeply spiritual man, so I do appreciate sincerely your perspective. So why don't you just rant on that for a bit?

(50:47):
Yeah. It it's this idea of grasping and straws to live as long as possible because, you know, at the end of this life, that's all there is, baby. And
for me,
that is a very morbid way to live one's life, based upon the belief or the principle that we are all a bunch of chunks of flesh and blood floating on a giant rock through space,

(51:07):
seeing who can make the most money and via Darwinian principles,
have the most sex, propagate the species, get the most houses, cars, you know,
women, bank accounts, fun, you name it. And then at the end of the day, boom, you're gone. You disintegrate.
Game over.
If
that's the way that you see
life,

(51:29):
then I think it can become very tempting to adopt
a nearly transhumanistic
lens through which you view health and biohacking. I wanna live as long as possible.
There is nothing after this. I want to almost, like, play God and figure out how to achieve immortality.
And I think we would be fooling ourselves
into believing

(51:49):
that
someone
could even live, like, to one fifty.
I mean, look at how far science and health has progressed
in the past hundred years, and the longest
human on lifespan, I believe, is a 117.
I think with all the stem cells and biohacking and protocols in the world, we'd we'd be lucky to get somebody to hit one twenty five, like, you know, at least in this

(52:12):
decade.
That may change as technology progresses.
And, of course, if it changes, then the question becomes, well, is that person who maybe gets to a 130
getting to a 130, but living those hundred and thirty years largely, like, huddled up inside a hyperbaric chamber, cold and hungry and libido less and fasting and never swimming with the sharks or getting out in the sunshine or, you know, staying out past their bedtime? So, you know, the question becomes, like, what's the quality of those hundred and thirty years gonna be from a societal and happiness standpoint?

(52:41):
So the way that I look at this is I don't do a lot of these things so that I can live as long as possible. I mean, frankly, Abel, if you look at my family genetics, like, most of the dudes in my family croak when they're somewhere around, like, early seventies, you know, late seventies if they're lucky.
If I do a good job, I could probably
make it to 90.

(53:01):
I mean and I'm not saying that again to as stinking thinking to manifest myself dying when I'm 90. I'm just being realistic here for a moment. But
I do think that
I can live as healthy
and as robust
and as
complete and fulfill the life as possible as close to
let's say it is 90. As close

(53:23):
to the day of 90 as I possibly can. Like, if I die at 90 after a day of snowboarding, making sweet hot love to my wife, you know, after a meal, rib eye steak and apple pie, that's great. Right? Versus, you know, living an extra
twenty, thirty years, but not having high quality of life
or
being just

(53:44):
kinda lonely and deprived.
So
I am a Christian.
I believe I'm gonna be immortal
and that I will have an amazing existence and a new heaven and a new earth surrounded by my friends and my family,
having a great time for the rest of my life. I do wanna equip myself to make as good an impact as I can while I'm in this body on this planet,

(54:06):
but
I also
am not, like, grasping
desperately
at every last second of life because this is all I've got.
Yeah.
I'm sure a lot of people wanna paint you into the box of, or put you into the box of just being a fitness guy, but you're largely creative, and you've been into music for a long time. You write creatively.

(54:27):
To you, what what is the value of that practice? Why do you do it, and and why should others consider it?
Well, I mean, we we are humans. We we thrive
on beauty and
art. And, you know, as you've written about so elegantly,
you know, with your work on music and the brain and creativity,

(54:48):
it's something that seems to feed not only our soul
but our brain in terms of the way that it sparks neurotransmitters
and the highly dopaminergic
response.
I think
that especially in the sector of health,
we can focus quite a bit on
our bodies.
But when it comes to, again, life fulfillment and happiness, I mean,

(55:11):
I love
cooking. I love grilling and sous ving and coming up with new spice rubs
and,
you know,
getting the crispy side of the scam and perfected and the texture
of a brisket, you know, just spot on and jiggly like it's supposed to be when it comes out. And I love having 30 people gathered around our big table and, you know, singing the doxology at the top of our lungs and saying a prayer and diving in.

(55:39):
I love, you know, busting out a colorful salad
and, you know, playing scrabble and dinner games for an hour with my family at night.
Every single night before dinner, I've got my guitar out. Our whole family is stomping our feet and clapping and singing songs and having a wonderful time. My wife and my sons are at the Oregon Coast right now. Last night,

(56:01):
I was out in the patio all by myself. I was playing guitar to the geese. Literally, the the geese and little babies were out there, and I'm cranking out John Denver with a big smile on my face.
And
I also think that, you know, stale scientific health writing is
sure useful,
but I love to to crank out stories and use my imagination to create fictitious characters. You know, I wrote a book called The Forest, the first of a five part fiction series that I'm working on,

(56:29):
with my my twin sons or the inspiration for the protagonist. It takes place in a, you know, magical world where they cross a portal and live the classic hero's journey.
And and
I think sometimes we tend to pigeonhole
ourselves into certain categories, like I'm the health guy, I'm the fitness guy, or I'm the biohacker,
or I'm the dancer, or I'm the musician, or I'm the chef, or I'm the secretary, or I'm the accountant. But

(56:54):
last time I checked, there wasn't some, like, life rule that you have to simply
excel in one specific category. I I certainly think people have
gifts that they tend to
be given,
granted to by God that allow them to
really touch people's lives in a meaningful way. But that doesn't mean you can't take a whole bunch of other stuff that you even potentially suck at

(57:17):
and not derive a great deal of enjoyment out of it or create a lot of enjoyment
in other people's lives from it. So sometimes I think we sell ourselves short. Like, we're just like, man, I can't do that.
I love it when I see somebody who's, like,
playing an open mic night at my mom's coffee shop and just crushing it. Like, there was, like, a, like, a 65 year old guy the other night doing Irish music,

(57:40):
and I come up to him like, dude, when did you start? He's like, oh, I was 50.
You know? Or, you know, or you or you see somebody who's just, like, incredible at chess and they started when they were 60 or somebody who started slacklining when they were 70. I mean, like, what's the Chinese proverb? The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago or today. Right? And I think that certainly applies to just all these different things that we can learn, and

(58:03):
I pair that with
what I was talking about earlier. Right? You do risk FOMO if you decide to be a Renaissance person,
especially in an era in which we are just bombarded
with information about where we can go and what we can do and what we can learn and Udemy and Khan and YouTube.
And it's like, dude, my head's gonna explode. I don't even know where to start.

(58:24):
This is where
my life philosophy,
I think, gives me a lot of peace because
I don't think we're gonna be a bunch of, like,
angels sitting on a fluffy cloud playing a harp in heaven. Like, the way I read the Bible, for example, is it says it's a new heaven and a new earth
as just like where we are now, but made perfect. So I literally believe in my heart I will be able to play guitar the rest of my life, write books the rest of my life,

(58:50):
snowboard,
eFoil,
climb mountains. However, anything I suck at now, I pretty much have eternity
to play around with. So I'm not, like, super duper desperate in this life to just, like, have it all, but I do like to dabble and enjoy a lot of stuff. I don't push the panic button though on, like, having to be proficient at everything or having to try everything because

(59:10):
of that part about me feeling as though immortality is a little bit more or, I guess, less esoteric and ethereal than a lot of people might think that it is.
Along those lines, in just the couple minutes that we have left, I would love to hear what you think about, like,
a
a forward looking skill stack, not only for our generation, but also for your boys and and the people who come up later. Like, what are the essential skills for humans

(59:35):
moving forward in an age when AI can do a lot of things better than or or arguably better than humans can?
Yeah. So from an educational standpoint, I really like Naval Ravikant's take on this, which is just a modern twist on the classical education approach. Like,
if you're and this this is the way that we homeschool our sons. This is what we're really focused on and kinda let everything else be their passions and interests and desires.

(59:58):
A human being should be able to
read professionally or, like, digest a large amount of information via the written word.
They should be able to
express their thoughts clearly
and efficiently
and preferably elegantly.
So,
basically, that's reading and writing.
Be able to do rough figuring and

(01:00:18):
arithmetic, not necessarily algebra and calculus, but just have a basic understanding of of math and geometry
and calculating. Like, whatever. If I drill through the wood at this angle, this is where that drill bit's gonna pop out. And then
some amount of logic and or
programming, like understanding if this, then that scenario is like, we accomplished a lot of that through gaming

(01:00:40):
at night. Like, we would just play tons of card games, battle games in our house at night so to to better understand, you know, a equals b, b equals c, then a equals c type of scenarios.
And then finally, rhetoric, like being able to persuade,
being able to sell, being able to to express your thoughts not only in written word but verbally.
So you look at reading,

(01:01:02):
writing, math, logic, and rhetoric as
core underlying principles.
Passions, interests, and desires based on your unique gifts and callings fall on top of that. And then my twist on that would be
two additional things. One, that I've done a really good job teaching my sons.
One, that I'm in the throes of trying to teach them.

(01:01:25):
The one that I've done a good job of is they've been in wilderness survival camp every summer since they were six.
They have, at this point, done eleven years
of wilderness and wilderness awareness training, you know, bird language,
animal tracking,
hunting, fire making, shelter building. They are now teachers. However, not teachers. They're called mentors, almost like TAs

(01:01:47):
at the wilderness survival camp that they went to. So, like, basically,
just know how to get dropped off in the woods and fend for yourself. And you don't have to do it when you're a kid. You can learn this at at any age.
And trust me, it's better
to do it outside
than to learn it on YouTube and think you know how to do it. Like, you actually have to go camping and be cold and figure out how to start a fire when your fingers aren't working. And yeah. So so that's one. And then the other would be being able to prompt AI

(01:02:17):
really, really well.
And that's a new one, and that that's why it's it's suddenly come up as highly important on my radar for my own personal skill set, for my son's skill set, like and that refers to kinda, like, some of the future you're probably alluding to. Like, you need to be able to delegate to a computer
really effectively.
It's coming to me quickly because I've always been a Tim Ferriss four hour work week guy, you know, in terms of delegation, outsourcing, VAs,

(01:02:42):
and telling other people how to do something
for you in a way that gets it done as efficiently as possible. Prompting a computer
is
pretty similar. And, of course, like the giant, like, elephant in the room cheat code is anytime I don't know the prompt, I tell AI what I want it to do, and then I say, how can I write this prompt more effectively for you to do this better? And I'm like,

(01:03:03):
technically,
if you know how to prompt something to help you write a better prompt, you you almost solve your own problem. Yeah.
The true concept of meta. Awesome. Ben, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. What is the best place for people to find the updated version of your book Boundless as well as, your work and whatever is next to come?

(01:03:23):
I mean, probably Google, but
Probably Chadd GBT. Yeah. Probably chaddgbt. My website's bengreenfieldlife.com,
and then, my book's on Amazon or wherever
books are are sold.
Awesome.
Ben, thanks so much. Really respect you and and appreciate our friendship over the years. Come back anytime.
Cool, dude. Thanks for having me on. Those were awesome questions.

(01:04:01):
Hey. Abel here one more time. And if you believe in our mission to create a world where health is the norm, not sickness, here are a few things you can do to help keep this show coming your way. Click like, subscribe, and leave a quick review wherever you listen to or watch your podcasts.
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