June 21, 2022 • 46 mins
This week's episode of Android Bytes actually follows up on something our co-host Mishaal has been looking at for a while: a removable eSIM that lets Android phones without the technology built-in to access eSIM providers. We chat with Christos Omiridis of Telco Village who was part of the team that created eSIM.me.
- 02:09 - What is a SIM? What is an eSIM? Why does it exist?
- 09:15 - Why bring eSIM to a device that doesn't natively support it?
- 15:50 - How does a removable eSIM interface with Android?
- 27:55 - What's the extensibility of modularizing eSIM from other FOSS devs and wireless carriers?
Android Bytes is hosted by Mishaal Rahman, Senior Technical Editor, and David Ruddock, Editor in Chief, of Esper.
Esper enables next-gen device management for company-owned and managed tablets, kiosks, smart phones, IoT edge devices, and more.
For more about Esper:
- Esper Blog
- Mobile Device Management (MDM) Guide
- Android MDM Guide
- iOS MDM Guide
- MDM Solutions
- MDM APIs & SDK
New from the Esper blog:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to Android bites powered by Asper I'm, David
Rudick and each week I'm joinedby my cohost Michelle ramen diving
deep into the world of Android.
And this week we're embarking ona journey that I think is really
interesting because it's an area thatlike many of our episodes, nobody
really talks about, um, in, and theyeven in the kind of niche tech media.
(00:24):
And today we're talking about EIM, whichis something that I know is exciting,
especially to pixel users, becauseGoogle's embrace the standard so much, but
it also has massive global implications.
As the telecom industrycontinues to evolve.
And we have a very special guest today.
Who's responsible for a veryinnovative product in this space.
And I'll let Michelle introduce
Mishaal (00:43):
him.
Thank you, David.
So on today's episode, we'veinvited Christos from telco village.
Welcome to the show Christos.
Thanks, having.
And so the topic of today'sepisode as David mentioned is EIM.
So for those of you don't know,EIM stands for embedded SIM and SIM
stands for subscriber identity module.
(01:03):
It's a very interesting topicbecause there are not that
many phones on the market.
With EIM capabilities built in.
But Ray recently I discovered a productby the company that Christos works for
that actually enables bringing ES IM toalmost any Android smartphone out there.
Most Android smartphones arecompatible with this product.
(01:24):
So that got me wondering how in the heckis this possible knowing what we know or
what we thought we know about ES IM howis it possible to bring something that's
supposed to be embedded into a device?
Externally through what looksto be a regular SIM card.
So that topic that got me down a rabbithole of, uh, GSMA specifications of
what the heck a smart card is of whatAPIs are used in Android to talk to
(01:49):
smart cards and all sorts of business.
And that's kind of what I wanna talkabout on today's episode is like
how the heck does communication withthe SIM card module actually work?
What makes an EIM differentfrom a regular SIM.
On a technical level.
And that's why I wantedto talk with Christos.
Who's an expert in this field before weactually start talking about ES I and
(02:12):
how this communication between Androidand an ES IM module actually works.
I think it's important to understandwhy the ES IM actually exists
because there are two main reasons.
One is the size.
And that's probably the most obviousreason for anyone to understand why the
em exists, because if you've used phonesfor a long time, you know, that SIM
(02:34):
cards used to come in much bigger sizes.
If anyone's used the regular,the original credit card size
SIM card, the one FF size.
But, uh, I wasn't using phones back then.
I used that size, but I think mostpeople today probably use the two
FFF three FFF or four FFF, which ismini micro, and then nano respect.
Most of our modern todaysupport the nano SIM card.
(02:54):
That's what you find on most devices,but even smaller than that, you
have the EIM, which is I embedableinto the devices motherboard.
So instead of dedicating spacefor a physical SIM card trace
lot that has to be removable.
That requires extra space.
Maybe somewhere on the side or in thebody, you can just build it directly
(03:15):
into the motherboard, saving somespace, which is very valuable on
a small device, like a smartphone.
Then in the future soon, we'll haveiSims, which are integrated directly
into the system on chip saving, evenmore space that could be reserved
for other components on the mother.
I wanted to start off by askingyou first, Christo, what do you
know about the EIM form factor?
(03:36):
Because many people don't know orat least, I didn't know until, uh,
a couple of weeks ago that there areactually multiple ES I form factors that
there's not just one size for an EIM.
There's a F two, which stands formachine the machine form factor.
And then there's also the.
W L C S P, which stands for thewafer level chip scale package.
(03:57):
I know there's two differentsizes and like, I know there's
different uses for them.
I wanted to ask you, whatcan you tell us about them?
Yes.
Uh,
Christos (04:03):
basically everything starts with a wafer, which is the circuit, and
then you can build the package around it,depending on the use case that you have.
And for the embedded SIM, starting withthe machine to machine devices, uh,
they wanted to solar them on, on PCBs,on printed circuit boards, and later
they wanted to have them in smaller.
(04:25):
Is waterproof devices.
And this is why theother phone factors came.
We did exactly the opposite.
We did not look into making themsmaller, but installed, uh, the EIM
wafer inside a SIM cut phone factor.
And the reason for that is to createan opportunity for people with
(04:46):
existing devices to benefit from ES.
On their devices, which makestheir devices also more sustainable
using them longer and getting thebenefit of this new technology.
Mishaal (04:57):
It's very confusing, but the embedded in Essem doesn't actually mean
it has to be embedded inside the device.
It's something that youthink you take for granted?
Cause it sounds like, oh, embedded meansit's inside, but the specification doesn't
actually say it has to be inside thedevice, which is a bit of a fun fact that
telco village took advantage of with theEsme product, which we'll talk about in a.
(05:19):
Before we go down.
I think I wanted to touch uponwhat actually comprises a SIM
card that you hold in your hand.
So for the most part, the reason we'reable to go from the big plastic credit
card size card down to the nanos SIMis that most of it was just plastic.
It's just like a covering like a shieldfor the actual circuitry that you can
clearly see is like the yellow part ofany SIM card that you hold that yellow
(05:41):
part without all the plastic around it.
That is what actuallyhas the micro controller.
That's the circuit.
So this micro controller,it has its own CPU.
It has its own Ram.
It has its own storage.
It has its own IO circuitry so thatit can actually communicate with
the card reader and whatever hostdevice this SIM card is attached to.
(06:02):
And this is an entire micro controller.
It has its own embedded firmware,and this firmware is responsible for
communicating with the host device.
And it also is able to storesome contacts, some messages.
So it's not very common nowadays,but a long time ago, people used to
actually store a couple of messagesor a couple of contacts directly on
(06:22):
the SIM card, rather than like in thecloud with Google contacts and SIM
card still enable you to do that, butit's just not very common anymore.
So this whole package, that circuitrythat's called a U I C, which stands
for universal integrated circuit card.
You also see sometimes this referred toas a smart card, which is a generic term
for any card with an embedded circuit.
(06:44):
So a U I C C is a, just aspecific type of smart card
that conforms to a specificationthat was made for this purpose.
One of the differences betweentraditional SIM cards and EIMS is that
EIMS make it possible to store andswitch between multiple SIM profiles.
That's one of the defining differences.
At least most people recognize.
So a SIM profile for those of you don'tknow is what identifies the services
(07:07):
that your device is able to connect to.
So of course, like a carrier doesn't.
Any non-pay customer to be ableto connect to their services.
So you have a profile that determines Ican connect to the voice call service.
I can connect to whateverextra services they have.
I wanted to ask you, why dowe need an EIM to do this?
Why can't we just retrofitexisting traditional SIM cards
(07:28):
to support storing and switchingbetween multiple SIM profiles.
Christos (07:32):
Actually SIM cards can store multiple SIM profiles.
And we've been doing this for yearsbefore SIM the problem there was that,
uh, you also store keys and thosesolutions were all proprie solutions.
Everybody was having his ownsolution as a mobile operator.
You could control those counts where youcould remotely upload SIM profiles there.
(07:56):
The actual problem was theinteroperability between parties.
And this interoperability main problemwas sharing the keys of your network.
The keys that the subscribers identifythemselves to the network with another
party and with EIM, which is a standard.
(08:17):
That a problem will solve because the EIMprofile is including those keys without
the necessity to share them with somebody.
So when you share the EIM profile,you don't share any keys and the
GSMA, uh, which release the standardis creating the root certificate.
So the E U I C C, which is the chip has acertificate from the GSMA, the RSP server.
(08:41):
Which is serving theprofile as a certificate.
So there is an environment created,uh, with trusted parties and therefore
the communication is not possible.
So it's not that it's somethingnew with a SIM profiles, but now
it is a standard that is globally.
Establish and agreed sothat it can be executed.
(09:02):
This is the main advantage of ESIM that this technology enables the
interability between manufacturersof devices, providers, and mobile
Mishaal (09:13):
operators.
Yeah.
So interesting point about thatis while I was researching for the
original article that I wrote on this,I learned about the apple SIM card.
For those of you who actually had aSIM card, a physical SIM card that
let you store multiple profiles ontoit, or I think it came pre-installed
with multiple SIM profiles frommultiple different us carriers.
And you could pick andchoose which one to use.
(09:35):
But as Christos mentioned, the problemwith that is it's not interoperable.
If you were to use an apple SIM card,On a Android device, you wouldn't be
able to switch between the profiles thatwere stored on that SIM card because
only Apple's iOS was set up to do that.
So by introducing the EIM standard,which standardizes the way these profiles
are managed, then you could switchbetween profiles in a standardized way.
(09:58):
So like right now there's no way to youcan't like transfer your EIM profiles
from an apple device to an Android device.
But the way in which those profilesare managed is now standardized.
I wanted to talk about nowyour product in particular.
So as you mentioned before, the E beembedded, doesn't actually have to be
within the device and your company,telco village actually took advantage of
(10:20):
this, carve out in the em specificationto basically create a product that
lets you enable EIM on any device.
I wanted to ask you, howexactly does that work?
Can you tell us a bit about.
Christos (10:30):
Let me add something to what you just mentioned with
the E and the GSMA standard.
The standard requires that the profilesare stored in a physical hardware, so
that they're not stored in as a software.
That's the requirement and thisphysical hardware, if it's sold
on, on the motherboard, or if it.
And another way, you know, connectedto the motherboard through the SIM card
(10:54):
is still sufficient for the standard.
As I mentioned before, we weredoing multiple SIM profiles on SIM
cards before, and actually we, weregistered the eim.me domain in
2015, one year ahead, the release.
Of the ESY standard, which is funny.
And we were happy that the ESYstandard hit the market because
(11:16):
this created the ability and theinterpretability as, as we mentioned.
So our goal was to create a removableESY that will upgrade that will add the
ESY functionality to existing devices.
But this was not the only goal.
Our goal was also to.
Create it without rooting a phonewithout soldering, anything without
(11:38):
opening a phone, losing the guarantee.
So we were talking with our colleaguesand, uh, with, with friends, et
cetera, and they were telling us thatthis is impossible because we need
to have some kind of support from thehardware or the software, et cetera.
So eventually we, we use.
The knowledge of 20 years intelecommunications, we used our experience
(11:59):
with multiple SIM profiles on the SIMcard, and we created the SME card, uh,
which is holding the E U I C C chipand the form factor of the SIM card.
And.
While our goal was to lift theusers of existing devices, to
the level of EIM compatibilitywith devices with ISIM built in.
(12:22):
We actually went beyond that becauseif you see, for example, a Google
pixel or any device with built inEIM, it's only for single device.
You cannot use that em, in another device.
So with our solution, we createdEIM capabilities for under
devices, but also beyond that.
So once the EMM profile is downloaded andactivated on the EMM card, you can remove
(12:49):
this card, install it in your laptop, inyour wifi router, in any device with a SIM
slot and benefit from this connectivity.
And.
The second thing that we did is it'sthe world's first dual em solution.
It means that you can havetwo ESY profiles active at
a time on those devices.
(13:10):
And this is also the reasonwhy we have also customers that
already have ESY built devices.
Google pixel is a good exampleand the bio product for these two
regions to be able to move thoseEIM profiles to other devices.
For example, my smartphoneruns out of battery.
Where's my connectivity or I, my displayis broken or any other thing is damaged.
(13:32):
Another reason is when you wantto transfer your profiles from one
brand to another, it's very easy.
You just do it in seconds.
And some operators, when you wantto transfer your EIM profile, they
charge you between $10 and 40 euros.
They call it replacement card.
They make it very difficult for you.
(13:53):
So we tho those customers save, had a.
And money and, uh, sothere's functionality and
there's also convenience.
We created the Esme app ina way in the play store.
The device list has around Ithink, 15,000 compatible devices.
With our product, but there is,uh, a multiple different Android
(14:16):
versions that can be installed.
So it's impossible to create alist which device is compatible
and which is not compatible.
We come to this later, how we checkthe compatibility, but the app will
tell you, you download the free appand you will tell you your device
is compatible or not compatible.
And when it's compatible, you canorder the CDI card, install it.
And then you can just startdownloading ePRO profiles.
(14:38):
And we created.
Let's say the, a varietyof products to align to.
I have a single device.
I only want to use it there.
So I don't want to spend too much money.
I don't need the other features,or I want to switch and manage the
cart between devices, et cetera.
I need more space and more storage.
And therefore we created the varietyof products and our customers
(14:59):
are excited about this product.
And this gives us also themotivation to continue.
We have also.
Uh, future plans.
We can talk about this later, what we areplanning to do with the secure element.
Mishaal (15:10):
Right.
So it's definitely avery ingenious product.
There's nothing else like it that Icould find on the market and just both in
what it does and how it takes advantageof a part about the specification that
I completely wasn't aware of before,which is the fact that removable
embedded SIM cards are possible.
And that it's actually explicitlysomething that's supported by
(15:31):
the G SMAs EIM specification.
They actually does explicitly mention.
Removable E U ICCS and anywhere youlook up you, if you Google, EIMS
almost, everything says it has to beembedded in the device and that's wrong.
It doesn't have to be that way.
And this product proves that.
And the actual specificationallows for that.
The other interesting part is, as youmentioned, you built an app Esme that
(15:55):
communicates with your em.me cardwithout using root access, without
having to be a system pre-installed app.
And that's the other bit thatI found really fascinating.
Like, how is that possible?
How is it possible to just download astandard user installed app from the
play store and have it communicate.
The card that you insert into yourdevice, like, how do you do that?
(16:16):
And that's something that Ispent a bit of time diving into.
And I think I wanna talk about that now,because as we know, SIM cards are meant
to be removable in general, and you'remeant to swap them between devices.
There has to be a standardized wayfor the host device and the host
operating system to communicatewith the firmware on that card.
Because if there wasn't, then yourSIM cards would be tied to a single
(16:39):
platform and that's not very useful.
So I wanted to ask you a bit,Christo, can you tell us about
how that communication works?
Can you describe the software that'srunning on the U I C C slash E U I C C.
And how does the post operating systemlike Android communicate with it?
Christos (16:57):
The software on the us C we can simply call it EIM OS.
So it's a software that managed theMCU, the storage, et cetera, and the
interface to the host, as you mentioned,because it's meant to be removable,
et cetera is just a smart card.
ISO 78, 16 with commands.
(17:17):
It's it's that simple.
And the content of those commandsof course, need to be aligned with
what we sent from the Acme app to theAcme card so that it does the actions
that we wish it's basically that
Mishaal (17:30):
simple.
Right?
So the, this E IM OS, can youtell us a little bit about that?
What kind of programs?
I guess very, very, very basic fromwhat I read Java card SIM apples,
like, can you tell us a bit aboutwhat's actually running on the EIM?
The
Christos (17:45):
most important part here is the certificate.
There is a mechanism that requires the ES C to authenticate itself to the let's
call it network or server the us E Cbeing the client and the other way around.
So both need to authenticate each other.
And from there.
(18:06):
There is another piece of softwarethat does the work, which is, uh,
we are going to talk a bit later.
The LPA, the local profess assistantcan also be implemented in the us C, C.
We are going to build a version that willhave it, but it it's not at the moment.
So the us C is only fulfillthe GSMA standard in terms of
(18:27):
exchanging the information with our.
Mishaal (18:29):
Okay.
So just in summary, all thiscommunication is supposed to
happen in a standardized way.
You have a Java card, apple that'srunning in the ESM OS of the E Y C C.
And that communicates both waysthrough app due commands, which stands
for application protocol, data, unitcommands, and all of those commands.
Those are following a standarddefinition, the ISO 7 816 dash four.
(18:53):
So all of this is, is kind ofstandardized, but one thing I was
interested for me to learn about was thatprior to Android nine, which introduced
the open mobile API or O M API, thatthere was a bit of inconsistencies in
the way that Silicon would actuallyhave their devices communicate with
the smart card on their device.
(19:15):
So I wanted to ask you, if you couldtell us a bit about the situation,
like prior to Android nine, can youtell us about what it was like for.
An app, like ISA me tocommunicate with ISA me card.
Like, was that even possible?
And what did O M B I a do to change?
We have
Christos (19:33):
customers using under five on their phones.
This is the, the oldest hundred versionthat we have, uh, seen customers
successfully using the EME caught anmeapp with the similar lines on MAPP.
Is the OPI library that was before Androidand was used by OEMs like Samsung Harvey.
(19:55):
Samsung did a very good job implementingthis and also continue to use similar
lines OPI even beyond Android lines.
So you have both APIs with themand sometimes we have to switch
between them depending on.
The implementation of theSIM card readers, because
they may not be accessible.
(20:15):
And we tried the one or the otherway, but the way was the same.
There are also other ways of communicatingwith the SIM card, with the very
independent protocol with binary SMS,with a lot of things that are not.
Really related in to Android.
So, so a network provider mobileoperator can talk to its SIM cards,
(20:36):
uh, through the mobile network.
They basically sent communication that istransposing through the Android system.
But if we are talking about an appcommunicating, this is then done through
a MAPP and then eventually open a logicalchannel, sending commands, uh, et cetera.
That's that's the
Mishaal (20:55):
implementation.
So O mappy, by the way, if I didn'tmention before was introduced in
Android nine for a O S P prior tothat, as Christos mentioned, some
OEMs would integrate the librarythemselves, but it's now a standard
feature as of Android nine and later.
And I believe there's even a compatibilitytest suite test that checks for home APIs,
(21:18):
whether or not it's been implemented.
Correct.
So your app, as you mentioned, workswithout root and depending on OS
version, it uses om, API commands orother commands, depending on the device.
I wanted to ask you now, howexactly is your app allowed to send
these commands to the Emme card?
And how do you ensure that only yourapp is able to communicate with the Emme
(21:40):
card and not just any other third partyapp that you download off a Google play?
Like, how does this
Christos (21:43):
privilege work?
As I mentioned before, our goalwas not to require any permissions
or not to require any unnecessarypermissions from the user or the OEM.
The only permissions thatwe ask the user to provide.
And these are only optional is,uh, permission to use the camera.
If you want to scan the QR code todownload the Asim profile and the gallery.
(22:06):
To access a Q code.
This is very interesting because theway that it works is, uh, for example,
you buy in , they send you an emailwith a Q code, some operators send
you a postcard with a printed Q code.
That's that's not really environmentalfriendly and not really digital, but yeah,
they, they just print on a SIM category.
(22:27):
However, if I buy online and.
Delivered to me by email, Iwould store it in the gallery.
And then from the gallery, Ican read it with in the app.
So these are the two permissions we ask,but if you don't want to give this two
permissions, you can just enter it manual.
You it's like a URL that youenter with some code, and then
you can download the profile.
(22:48):
The rights that we get.
Are, uh, sourced by the card.
So the card has certificates that declarewhich applications that are assigned
with specific keys are allowed to access.
And we have a set of keys.
Which means that our E CME app has access,but we are also open to provide access
(23:12):
or similar to the entitlement that thatmanufacturers give to other, let's say
developers to access their E U SCCs.
Uh, we have the same option.
So developers are open to contact usin this regards with the advantage.
Say that even if, if somebody saysI have Android running on Google,
Android, running on Samsung, or in othermanufacturers, they would require the
(23:36):
entitlement from each manufacturer, notGoogle as an Android, but Google as a
manufacturer, Samsung as a manufacturerbecause it's access to the hardware.
So this is done with thecase at the same time.
We allow access to the system apps.
So you can access the EME cardwith your SIM manager from
(24:00):
the Google settings up to 111.
It was even.
Possible to download EI profiles becausethe ECM card has a higher priority to the
embedded S C but with hundred 12, theyspecifically address the embedded us C
so that you have to use the Acme app.
But the system itself has accessto the cart is the E S C standard.
(24:24):
So we allow access tothe system itself as.
Mishaal (24:28):
So it's quite interesting.
The way mechanism that this works isactually a certificate that declares,
which apps can interface with iton the Android side and whatever
other operating system is available.
When I was reading through this, I, Ilearned about this is all part of a U
I C C carrier privileged permission.
So basically it's a way for an app toaccess certain privileged telephone
(24:51):
APIs without actually having tobe system pre-installed or having
to be granted a specific permiss.
So this way, EIM dot E is theonly user installed app that can
interface with the ES IME card.
You can't install anyother app on Google play.
That's able to do what the Esme appis able to do, which is download and
manage profiles on the em.me card.
(25:13):
This actually is quite similarto like all other same cards.
Basically you have your carrierapps, which are able to access
carrier privileged APIs inthis, in this very similar way.
This is all standardized through the file.
The whole certificate wouldcall them access rule file.
I believe so.
Um, it was very interesting to learn that.
But one thing that I did discover while Iwas using the eim.me app, is that it's not
(25:38):
able to be pre-installed it's not able tobe integrated into Android settings, like
say Google SIM manager app is, and nowI wanted to ask you about why that's the
case and what would be required in orderto get in ES IM app actually integrated
into the Android operating system.
As like, you know, you go to settings,you're able to directly add anim profile.
Like you can on a pixel.
(25:59):
So, can you tell us about some of thethings that would be required in order
to do that in order to actually integrateyour app into Android OS setting?
Christos (26:06):
What is required is a communication to two directions.
The one is the communication to the RSP,the server that holds the profiles.
This is standardized howit's going to be implemented.
And the other is theconnection to the U I C C.
This application does not need to becertified because it's only the transport.
(26:27):
Let's say the translator,it downloads the profile.
It slices the profile down into commands,and then it is sending it to the U S C C
prior to this, there is the authenticationprocess necessary where the LPA.
Just exchange the informationbetween those two.
And this is why the LPA does notreally have to be in the app.
(26:49):
It can be in the system, it canbe in the app and it can even
be embedded on the chip itself.
This is called LPA E forembedded this time on the chip,
Mishaal (26:59):
a couple of terms are thrown around just now, as you
mentioned, LPA before stands forlocal profile assistant, it's actually
part of the GS A's EIM standard.
So if you look up the GSMA SGP two,two, One of the section talks about
local profile assistant for deviceand that the other one is local
profile assistant for embedded.
So LPA in terms of Androidis the EIM management app.
(27:21):
Google's SIM manager app would be anexample of an L P a D implementation.
Um, another term that Chris hasmentioned before RSP, which is the remote
SIM provisioning, the server on thecarrier side is called the SMDP plus.
So subscription manager,data preparation, plus.
And that server that they deploys,what supports RSP, remote SIM
(27:41):
provisioning, but that's all not Android.
What is Android side is the L P aD, which is the application that
actually helps the user downloadSIM profiles using a QR code, either
downloaded or something they can scan.
There are several applications thatbasically act as an L P a D brand Android.
The EIM me app is basicallykind of like that.
(28:02):
Then there's also an open sourceproject, which I talked about in
my post called open E U Y C C.
, I wanted to ask about yourthoughts on this project and what
are you doing in relation to it?
Christos (28:13):
I think that this is something for OEMs to implement
their LPAs in their systems.
Something that we didn't mention beforeis how can Google make sure that the map
is implemented accurately in the devices?
Fortunately, since 109, themap is there, unfortunately.
(28:33):
The OEMs do not implementit correctly or fully.
So maybe there is no MAPI.
Maybe there is O MAPI only for theN C chip, but not for us C or maybe
there is O MAPI for the us C, butthere is no access to the SIM readers.
And this is why we have createdthis compatibility check.
And maybe this open us C is a way.
(28:53):
For those OEMs to an update to integratethis functionality, to their phones.
We, as Acme are welcoming other LPAsto access our cart because our cart,
the Acme card is a secure element.
And the secure element, the one thingthat it can do is store in profiles.
(29:13):
But the secure element is the same.
Technology that we see onsmart cards for credit cards.
So we can store payment information.
It can be sliced into secure domains andthose secure domains can hold information
like keys, like payment information, likeany other kind of tokens, et cetera, that.
(29:36):
Users or developers are going todevelop and create other products.
So, so we create the foundation on thephysical level and provide the access,
and this can enable other developersto basically build on top of that.
So LPA is just one thing.
And with the secure element, I thinkwe provide a platform and a marketplace
(29:58):
where these things can become reality.
And the Acme app is not only an LPA.
Actually it started very primitiveand we expanded because we've seen
the feedback from the audience that,uh, now that I have the storage to
basically store EIM profiles, wheredo I get those EI profiles from?
(30:20):
And why do I have to gosomewhere else, et cetera.
And we are creating a carrierneutral marketplace where everybody
can offer their easy profiles.
We are going to do KYC.
For them in some countries it'srequired to know your customer.
And if I am, let's say in Germany andI buy anim profile from Doche tele,
(30:42):
from T-Mobile, I need to do KFC there.
And then if I switch toVodafone, I need to do KOC there.
And there are a lot of hurdles thatmake this standard a bit unconvenient.
And while if you have a platform.
Compare it with Amazon as a marketplace,your credit card is store there.
Your address is known you only clickand buy, and we want to create a
(31:03):
similar marketplace for it in profiles.
So that users do not have to start thisonboarding process from the beginning.
It is authentication.
It is payment gateway, et cetera.
David (31:15):
This is I think where strategically, maybe we
can zoom out a little bit.
Just like the situationwith telecom operators.
For example, they have a lotstaked on keeping the physical SIM
standard alive, as long as theycan, especially here in the us.
They are very, very attachedto it and they really have been
(31:36):
very reticent to give it up.
So I'm sure that that is also somethingthat is kind of slow walked this
technology for a number of years now,especially as we go to EIM, because
to me, the carriers, like you said,they intentionally try to make this
difficult or imposed with cost avery arbitrary and capricious way.
It's it has nothing to dowith helping customers.
(31:59):
It has everything to do with makingswitching services and products.
Very difficult.
So it's interesting to me that even em,which I think was in many ways designed
to be friendly to the carrier's concernsabout competition, that y'all were able
to come up with the solution that actuallymodularizes the standard and says, oh,
(32:21):
you can take it anywhere with you now.
That to me is whatmakes it so interesting.
Have you had any conversations withany carriers or manufacturers or other
people in the industry who said I waswaiting for somebody to make this?
I knew it was possible oris it truly just surprise?
Like we literally did notthink this could be done.
Christos (32:39):
I agree with you.
Operators ly think that if they stick toa Simco, they lock down the customer, but
of course the Simco can be replaced withanother Simco and ISIM is a threat to
their eyes because they think that on themarket, they're going to lose a customer.
They don't see that this customeris going to another operator
(33:00):
that could be themselves.
So if I don't offer something,they cannot buy from me.
And if I offer ES IM with an app,Like some operators do, then I cannot
actually call it E and because theydon't give you the activation code
to basically see it as an standard.
But this being said, I think that this issimilar to the number portability that you
(33:24):
didn't have in many countries over years.
It, it established this way.
Uh, we have countries,uh, like Saudi Arabia.
where every operator has Zim andwhere they offer 30% discount.
To EIM compared to Simco.
I mentioned before they know yourcustomer, they're onboarding.
If you have prepaid customers, youhave onboarding costs and those
(33:46):
customers can leave you anyway.
So you don't make any margin ifthey don't stay for a time with you.
So I think that we cannot convinceoperators that EIM is something good for
them and for the future, but we can seean analogy with, do I need a website?
Do I need a web presence?
You know, Back when onlinestores, et cetera, uh, created,
(34:08):
we just let them take their time.
We, of course, we've spoken tomany operators because we are an
operator ourselves and we havethe context to all of them and
they, the most of them think of.
We are going to wait until there are ISIMonly devices and then we have to move.
But we also know, and we see this insome markets that if one operator starts
(34:31):
advertising starts pushing marketing this,then the others will follow in no time.
So we see in Europe, forexample, there is, uh, no
roaming between countries agree.
So within the European union,there's no roaming charges allowed.
And then you have, let's say.
Polish operators selling in Europe,uh, check operators selling in Europe.
(34:52):
It doesn't help the German operators toprotect their SIM card because they're
going to buy from somewhere else anyway.
And the same will ishappening in north America.
We we've seen Canadians buying Asian EIMS.
To use in north Americabecause they only need data.
So they don't have to pay forvoice packages or whatever.
(35:13):
I think it's just a matter of time.
It's it's ISIM is a new path andthe faster they jump on this, the
better market share they can secure.
Mishaal (35:24):
Yeah.
I think the convenience at EIMreally can't be understated in some
situations like my cousin she'svisiting us from Bangladesh and of
course she needs a local Sy cardbecause she's here for several weeks.
So because she has an iPhone, I rememberthat T-Mobile actually offers an app
that just completely guides you throughthe process of setting up an EES.
I profile within the appand paying within the app.
(35:46):
Within a matter of like five minutes,we had service up and running for.
I didn't have to go anywhere else.
I didn't have to go to a store.
Didn't have to shop around for one ofthe various MBN OS that offer plans.
It was just at home connectedto my wifi network, five minutes
up and running with a new plan.
And as you mentioned, even smallercarriers, like in surprise markets
like Canada, connecting to an ES IMoffering from Hong Kong, three, three
(36:09):
Hong Kong, I believe is the carrierthat many of them subscribing to.
There's an opportunity there that a fewcarriers are actually taking advantage of.
And, you know, it's a bit of a chickenand egg situation where more carriers
are waiting for devices to go EIMonly, but devices won't go EIM.
Only if few carriers are supporting EIM.
So like, We're kind of a stuck atthe standstill where the highest
(36:30):
end premium phones have in EIM andthey also have a physical SIM card.
But there's also a littletechnical limitation with the ES.
I currently in that most ES IMSonly support having one of their
SIM profiles active at a time.
And as you mentioned, Chris, four, yoursolution supports enabling multiple ES I
(36:51):
profiles because you can have one ES IIMprofile enabled on your ES IM me card.
And then another one enabled on thephones built in ES I, or you could
have a phone with dual in card slotsand you could have two Essem me.
But something interesting that I learnedabout recently is that Android 13 is
implementing a new feature called multipleenabled profiles, which would enable
(37:14):
you to have two SIM profiles stored onan EIM at the same time, it would allow
you to use both them at the same time.
So I wanted to ask your thoughtson this multiple enable profiles
feature and whether or not it'ssomething that actually could
be done with an eim.me card.
Christos (37:31):
This is a great feature.
Uh, I really welcome this.
Uh, if it's available for us to accessit, we are going to implement this
also forme we had, uh, customersactually, let's start to define how
those multiple is improves, can be used.
It is determined by the numberof SIM card slot, and eventually
by the number of moderns.
(37:53):
So if I have two mode, I can havetwo subscriptions active at a time.
And even in some cases where somebodyhas a dual SIM phone, but wants to use a
second SIM card slot for, he says D card.
It will be a benefit because hecan have one Acme card with two
profiles addressing the two modewhile he has an SD card on the.
(38:14):
That's a lot.
So there is a use case forthis and there is we, we have
received many requests for this.
Uh, so I think it's a,it's a good feature.
And we will implement this.
The access for this is possible meansif the OEM will enable this access,
because it's depending also on them, howlimited this new feature will be similar
(38:35):
to the O MAPI on the, on the previous
Mishaal (38:36):
things.
From what I read according to Google'spatent, it doesn't actually require
two modems for MEP to work, which theconventional wisdom that you would
need for every active SIM profile.
If you want an active dataconnection, you need a second modem,
but, uh, DSDs or dual standby.
DOSIM dual standby.
You could still have EIM MEPwork with a single modem.
(39:00):
Google's patent describes aopening two logical connections
from the SIM car to the modem.
And yeah, I'm curious tosee how it's gonna work.
It's something Google hasn't announcedyet, but there's some documentation
available for it and whether or notthis can be extended to removable.
E YCCS is another story entire.
I
Christos (39:19):
haven't seen the patent.
So I cannot tell something aboutthe patent, but I've seen the
description where you can basicallyaddress two or three mode.
I haven't seen a device with threemode, but at least from the theory
point of view, this is possible.
If their patent can talk tomultiple, let's say networks,
et cetera, in a time differencethan maybe this is also possible.
(39:40):
So theoretically it's possible.
Uh, if there is a requirement fromthe network, That's another thing.
So open to see what this pattern willlook like and how the let's say the mobile
network will or will not have to implementpart of the pattern to, to make it work.
David (39:57):
And another reason this is, I think also starting to come up is that as 5g
networks reach saturation, there are goingto be use cases where having multiple
networks actually is going to providea material benefit to the end user.
And that end user could besomebody doing something like
downloading a very large file.
We've already seen heterogeneousnetworking technology, like Samsung
(40:20):
phones like that, this for years whereyou can use wifi and LT at the same time.
Uh, to boost your download speeds,obviously in America carriers hate
this feature because they would ratheryou be on wifi and nothing else, but
it goes to show that there are goingto be use cases that drive that.
And so if you are able to have aphone that uses what you know, to
be the most reliable data connectionor device that uses the most
(40:43):
reliable data connection day to.
But can keep an active profileenabled that is particularly for
like super high throughput downloadsmaybe, and maybe those are only
necessary during business hours.
And so you have it connected to the highthroughput network when the device is
active and being used, but when shuts off.
It goes down to thesuper low power network.
And maybe that's like a 5g IOT networkwhere it's really just sending some basic
(41:06):
packet data, time to time the check in.
So I'm sure that there are all kindsof use cases out there that have really
yet to be explored for things like this.
And as we make it more integratedon the device, I think that we'll
see those use cases start toemerge the biggest limiting factor.
And I I'm guessing wouldagree, Christo is that.
The physical side of a SIM cardis that it has to go in something.
(41:30):
You have to get it.
And there's one SIM card per device.
And that just makes doing anythingcomplex or unique as far as a
configuration, much more challengingwhen you're making SIM cards.
It's probably a very big scalekind of thing you're doing.
Like an, operator's not going tobe like, oh, we're going to make
this very special configuration forthis one customer on our network.
(41:50):
That's uniquely coded to these SIMcards and they can do special things
that other customers can't nobody'sproviding that kind of service.
So it would make sense that thetechnology should move to the device
and end user side to be managed there.
So that the implementations,just depending on how much
does this cost me to do this.
So the carrier just goesback to being that dumb bite.
Instead of a glorified servicesprovider, which we know they
(42:14):
all aren't, , they're just bits.
So this is really cool.
And I think that you guys havean amazingly interesting product,
and this is usually where I wouldplug where Asper fits in with it.
Um, this one's a little harder for usbecause, you know, we do have mobile
data use case, and it's very interesting,but I've really thought about this
and I'm like, I'm not sure exactly.
But I am sure that eventually we willhave customers wear more flexibility
(42:39):
around mobile data, 5g and Essem isgoing to become a priority because it's
a matter of flexibility for businesses.
Being able to switch providers on the flywould be an amazing way to potentially
reduce your costs or to up your data.
Throughput, if you need more and justbe more competitive, this is all about
helping customers move faster, right?
Making decisions about their network orswitching networks or whatever it may be.
(43:03):
And I think that that is a superdefensible goal for any business in the
tech industry, because this is a problem.
And it's a problem that in many wayshas been artificially constructed
as a business competition barrier.
And it's cool to see somebodystarting to tear it down.
Christos (43:21):
Actually, we are working with mobile operators and we try
to visualize this opportunity.
If I, for example, as a endcustomer, I have to choose between
two networks, one being the premiumnetworks, which is expensive.
And the other one, whichis cheaper with not a good
coverage, I don't have to choose.
(43:42):
I can use both.
So having the ability to use both.
Imagine that if, for example, youintroduce the prepaid model where
customers can buy your service fora day, but not to go to the shop,
not to wait for shipping, et cetera,they just, they don't have coverage.
And now they havecoverage to your network.
Sell them connectivity.
(44:04):
Right on the spot.
Right?
So, so there is opportunity.
And I think that, uh, it willtake some time for operators to
realize that there is opportunity.
Uh, but definitely there is a benefitfor the consumer and if something
is good for the consumer, peoplewill find the way to buy to get
Mishaal (44:23):
it.
Well, that's all the, uh, questionsthat I had for this episode.
I just wanted to thank youChristus again for joining us.
And before we close off, I wanted tohave you tell people where they can
find you online if you're online,anywhere and where they can follow
for updates from you and your company.
Christos (44:43):
Uh, they con contact, uh, me personally through my LinkedIn profile.
Of course they can contact us throughour websites, uh, contact from this
is, uh, we respond to every request.
We, we get a lot ofdifferent ideas, et cetera.
We are open to everybody.
We have.
Actually received orders andcustomers from around 170 countries.
(45:06):
So we see a lot of traction and weare open to developers that want
to build on top of what we created.
And we are also open to listen tocustomers that have maybe specific
needs that we haven't thought about.
So LinkedIn and on a websiteis I think, a good place to.
Mishaal (45:24):
Okay, well, thank you for the outro.
And as you've already mentioned,you can find David and i@esper.io.
And this podcast is Android bites.
We have a webpage up, but youcan also find all our podcast
episodes on blog, doper.io.
So thank you again,Christmas for joining us.
Thanks David, for joining me on anotherepisode and thank you all for listening.
(45:46):
See you next time.
Hello, and welcome to Android bites powered by Asper I'm, David
Rudick and each week I'm joinedby my cohost Michelle ramen diving
deep into the world of Android.
And this week we're embarking ona journey that I think is really
interesting because it's an area thatlike many of our episodes, nobody
really talks about, um, in, and theyeven in the kind of niche tech media.
(00:24):
And today we're talking about EIM, whichis something that I know is exciting,
especially to pixel users, becauseGoogle's embrace the standard so much, but
it also has massive global implications.
As the telecom industrycontinues to evolve.
And we have a very special guest today.
Who's responsible for a veryinnovative product in this space.
And I'll let Michelle introduce
Mishaal (00:43):
him.
Thank you, David.
So on today's episode, we'veinvited Christos from telco village.
Welcome to the show Christos.
Thanks, having.
And so the topic of today'sepisode as David mentioned is EIM.
So for those of you don't know,EIM stands for embedded SIM and SIM
stands for subscriber identity module.
(01:03):
It's a very interesting topicbecause there are not that
many phones on the market.
With EIM capabilities built in.
But Ray recently I discovered a productby the company that Christos works for
that actually enables bringing ES IM toalmost any Android smartphone out there.
Most Android smartphones arecompatible with this product.
(01:24):
So that got me wondering how in the heckis this possible knowing what we know or
what we thought we know about ES IM howis it possible to bring something that's
supposed to be embedded into a device?
Externally through what looksto be a regular SIM card.
So that topic that got me down a rabbithole of, uh, GSMA specifications of
what the heck a smart card is of whatAPIs are used in Android to talk to
(01:49):
smart cards and all sorts of business.
And that's kind of what I wanna talkabout on today's episode is like
how the heck does communication withthe SIM card module actually work?
What makes an EIM differentfrom a regular SIM.
On a technical level.
And that's why I wantedto talk with Christos.
Who's an expert in this field before weactually start talking about ES I and
(02:12):
how this communication between Androidand an ES IM module actually works.
I think it's important to understandwhy the ES IM actually exists
because there are two main reasons.
One is the size.
And that's probably the most obviousreason for anyone to understand why the
em exists, because if you've used phonesfor a long time, you know, that SIM
(02:34):
cards used to come in much bigger sizes.
If anyone's used the regular,the original credit card size
SIM card, the one FF size.
But, uh, I wasn't using phones back then.
I used that size, but I think mostpeople today probably use the two
FFF three FFF or four FFF, which ismini micro, and then nano respect.
Most of our modern todaysupport the nano SIM card.
(02:54):
That's what you find on most devices,but even smaller than that, you
have the EIM, which is I embedableinto the devices motherboard.
So instead of dedicating spacefor a physical SIM card trace
lot that has to be removable.
That requires extra space.
Maybe somewhere on the side or in thebody, you can just build it directly
(03:15):
into the motherboard, saving somespace, which is very valuable on
a small device, like a smartphone.
Then in the future soon, we'll haveiSims, which are integrated directly
into the system on chip saving, evenmore space that could be reserved
for other components on the mother.
I wanted to start off by askingyou first, Christo, what do you
know about the EIM form factor?
(03:36):
Because many people don't know orat least, I didn't know until, uh,
a couple of weeks ago that there areactually multiple ES I form factors that
there's not just one size for an EIM.
There's a F two, which stands formachine the machine form factor.
And then there's also the.
W L C S P, which stands for thewafer level chip scale package.
(03:57):
I know there's two differentsizes and like, I know there's
different uses for them.
I wanted to ask you, whatcan you tell us about them?
Yes.
Uh,
Christos (04:03):
basically everything starts with a wafer, which is the circuit, and
then you can build the package around it,depending on the use case that you have.
And for the embedded SIM, starting withthe machine to machine devices, uh,
they wanted to solar them on, on PCBs,on printed circuit boards, and later
they wanted to have them in smaller.
(04:25):
Is waterproof devices.
And this is why theother phone factors came.
We did exactly the opposite.
We did not look into making themsmaller, but installed, uh, the EIM
wafer inside a SIM cut phone factor.
And the reason for that is to createan opportunity for people with
(04:46):
existing devices to benefit from ES.
On their devices, which makestheir devices also more sustainable
using them longer and getting thebenefit of this new technology.
Mishaal (04:57):
It's very confusing, but the embedded in Essem doesn't actually mean
it has to be embedded inside the device.
It's something that youthink you take for granted?
Cause it sounds like, oh, embedded meansit's inside, but the specification doesn't
actually say it has to be inside thedevice, which is a bit of a fun fact that
telco village took advantage of with theEsme product, which we'll talk about in a.
(05:19):
Before we go down.
I think I wanted to touch uponwhat actually comprises a SIM
card that you hold in your hand.
So for the most part, the reason we'reable to go from the big plastic credit
card size card down to the nanos SIMis that most of it was just plastic.
It's just like a covering like a shieldfor the actual circuitry that you can
clearly see is like the yellow part ofany SIM card that you hold that yellow
(05:41):
part without all the plastic around it.
That is what actuallyhas the micro controller.
That's the circuit.
So this micro controller,it has its own CPU.
It has its own Ram.
It has its own storage.
It has its own IO circuitry so thatit can actually communicate with
the card reader and whatever hostdevice this SIM card is attached to.
(06:02):
And this is an entire micro controller.
It has its own embedded firmware,and this firmware is responsible for
communicating with the host device.
And it also is able to storesome contacts, some messages.
So it's not very common nowadays,but a long time ago, people used to
actually store a couple of messagesor a couple of contacts directly on
(06:22):
the SIM card, rather than like in thecloud with Google contacts and SIM
card still enable you to do that, butit's just not very common anymore.
So this whole package, that circuitrythat's called a U I C, which stands
for universal integrated circuit card.
You also see sometimes this referred toas a smart card, which is a generic term
for any card with an embedded circuit.
(06:44):
So a U I C C is a, just aspecific type of smart card
that conforms to a specificationthat was made for this purpose.
One of the differences betweentraditional SIM cards and EIMS is that
EIMS make it possible to store andswitch between multiple SIM profiles.
That's one of the defining differences.
At least most people recognize.
So a SIM profile for those of you don'tknow is what identifies the services
(07:07):
that your device is able to connect to.
So of course, like a carrier doesn't.
Any non-pay customer to be ableto connect to their services.
So you have a profile that determines Ican connect to the voice call service.
I can connect to whateverextra services they have.
I wanted to ask you, why dowe need an EIM to do this?
Why can't we just retrofitexisting traditional SIM cards
(07:28):
to support storing and switchingbetween multiple SIM profiles.
Christos (07:32):
Actually SIM cards can store multiple SIM profiles.
And we've been doing this for yearsbefore SIM the problem there was that,
uh, you also store keys and thosesolutions were all proprie solutions.
Everybody was having his ownsolution as a mobile operator.
You could control those counts where youcould remotely upload SIM profiles there.
(07:56):
The actual problem was theinteroperability between parties.
And this interoperability main problemwas sharing the keys of your network.
The keys that the subscribers identifythemselves to the network with another
party and with EIM, which is a standard.
(08:17):
That a problem will solve because the EIMprofile is including those keys without
the necessity to share them with somebody.
So when you share the EIM profile,you don't share any keys and the
GSMA, uh, which release the standardis creating the root certificate.
So the E U I C C, which is the chip has acertificate from the GSMA, the RSP server.
(08:41):
Which is serving theprofile as a certificate.
So there is an environment created,uh, with trusted parties and therefore
the communication is not possible.
So it's not that it's somethingnew with a SIM profiles, but now
it is a standard that is globally.
Establish and agreed sothat it can be executed.
(09:02):
This is the main advantage of ESIM that this technology enables the
interability between manufacturersof devices, providers, and mobile
Mishaal (09:13):
operators.
Yeah.
So interesting point about thatis while I was researching for the
original article that I wrote on this,I learned about the apple SIM card.
For those of you who actually had aSIM card, a physical SIM card that
let you store multiple profiles ontoit, or I think it came pre-installed
with multiple SIM profiles frommultiple different us carriers.
And you could pick andchoose which one to use.
(09:35):
But as Christos mentioned, the problemwith that is it's not interoperable.
If you were to use an apple SIM card,On a Android device, you wouldn't be
able to switch between the profiles thatwere stored on that SIM card because
only Apple's iOS was set up to do that.
So by introducing the EIM standard,which standardizes the way these profiles
are managed, then you could switchbetween profiles in a standardized way.
(09:58):
So like right now there's no way to youcan't like transfer your EIM profiles
from an apple device to an Android device.
But the way in which those profilesare managed is now standardized.
I wanted to talk about nowyour product in particular.
So as you mentioned before, the E beembedded, doesn't actually have to be
within the device and your company,telco village actually took advantage of
(10:20):
this, carve out in the em specificationto basically create a product that
lets you enable EIM on any device.
I wanted to ask you, howexactly does that work?
Can you tell us a bit about.
Christos (10:30):
Let me add something to what you just mentioned with
the E and the GSMA standard.
The standard requires that the profilesare stored in a physical hardware, so
that they're not stored in as a software.
That's the requirement and thisphysical hardware, if it's sold
on, on the motherboard, or if it.
And another way, you know, connectedto the motherboard through the SIM card
(10:54):
is still sufficient for the standard.
As I mentioned before, we weredoing multiple SIM profiles on SIM
cards before, and actually we, weregistered the eim.me domain in
2015, one year ahead, the release.
Of the ESY standard, which is funny.
And we were happy that the ESYstandard hit the market because
(11:16):
this created the ability and theinterpretability as, as we mentioned.
So our goal was to create a removableESY that will upgrade that will add the
ESY functionality to existing devices.
But this was not the only goal.
Our goal was also to.
Create it without rooting a phonewithout soldering, anything without
(11:38):
opening a phone, losing the guarantee.
So we were talking with our colleaguesand, uh, with, with friends, et
cetera, and they were telling us thatthis is impossible because we need
to have some kind of support from thehardware or the software, et cetera.
So eventually we, we use.
The knowledge of 20 years intelecommunications, we used our experience
(11:59):
with multiple SIM profiles on the SIMcard, and we created the SME card, uh,
which is holding the E U I C C chipand the form factor of the SIM card.
And.
While our goal was to lift theusers of existing devices, to
the level of EIM compatibilitywith devices with ISIM built in.
(12:22):
We actually went beyond that becauseif you see, for example, a Google
pixel or any device with built inEIM, it's only for single device.
You cannot use that em, in another device.
So with our solution, we createdEIM capabilities for under
devices, but also beyond that.
So once the EMM profile is downloaded andactivated on the EMM card, you can remove
(12:49):
this card, install it in your laptop, inyour wifi router, in any device with a SIM
slot and benefit from this connectivity.
And.
The second thing that we did is it'sthe world's first dual em solution.
It means that you can havetwo ESY profiles active at
a time on those devices.
(13:10):
And this is also the reasonwhy we have also customers that
already have ESY built devices.
Google pixel is a good exampleand the bio product for these two
regions to be able to move thoseEIM profiles to other devices.
For example, my smartphoneruns out of battery.
Where's my connectivity or I, my displayis broken or any other thing is damaged.
(13:32):
Another reason is when you wantto transfer your profiles from one
brand to another, it's very easy.
You just do it in seconds.
And some operators, when you wantto transfer your EIM profile, they
charge you between $10 and 40 euros.
They call it replacement card.
They make it very difficult for you.
(13:53):
So we tho those customers save, had a.
And money and, uh, sothere's functionality and
there's also convenience.
We created the Esme app ina way in the play store.
The device list has around Ithink, 15,000 compatible devices.
With our product, but there is,uh, a multiple different Android
(14:16):
versions that can be installed.
So it's impossible to create alist which device is compatible
and which is not compatible.
We come to this later, how we checkthe compatibility, but the app will
tell you, you download the free appand you will tell you your device
is compatible or not compatible.
And when it's compatible, you canorder the CDI card, install it.
And then you can just startdownloading ePRO profiles.
(14:38):
And we created.
Let's say the, a varietyof products to align to.
I have a single device.
I only want to use it there.
So I don't want to spend too much money.
I don't need the other features,or I want to switch and manage the
cart between devices, et cetera.
I need more space and more storage.
And therefore we created the varietyof products and our customers
(14:59):
are excited about this product.
And this gives us also themotivation to continue.
We have also.
Uh, future plans.
We can talk about this later, what we areplanning to do with the secure element.
Mishaal (15:10):
Right.
So it's definitely avery ingenious product.
There's nothing else like it that Icould find on the market and just both in
what it does and how it takes advantageof a part about the specification that
I completely wasn't aware of before,which is the fact that removable
embedded SIM cards are possible.
And that it's actually explicitlysomething that's supported by
(15:31):
the G SMAs EIM specification.
They actually does explicitly mention.
Removable E U ICCS and anywhere youlook up you, if you Google, EIMS
almost, everything says it has to beembedded in the device and that's wrong.
It doesn't have to be that way.
And this product proves that.
And the actual specificationallows for that.
The other interesting part is, as youmentioned, you built an app Esme that
(15:55):
communicates with your em.me cardwithout using root access, without
having to be a system pre-installed app.
And that's the other bit thatI found really fascinating.
Like, how is that possible?
How is it possible to just download astandard user installed app from the
play store and have it communicate.
The card that you insert into yourdevice, like, how do you do that?
(16:16):
And that's something that Ispent a bit of time diving into.
And I think I wanna talk about that now,because as we know, SIM cards are meant
to be removable in general, and you'remeant to swap them between devices.
There has to be a standardized wayfor the host device and the host
operating system to communicatewith the firmware on that card.
Because if there wasn't, then yourSIM cards would be tied to a single
(16:39):
platform and that's not very useful.
So I wanted to ask you a bit,Christo, can you tell us about
how that communication works?
Can you describe the software that'srunning on the U I C C slash E U I C C.
And how does the post operating systemlike Android communicate with it?
Christos (16:57):
The software on the us C we can simply call it EIM OS.
So it's a software that managed theMCU, the storage, et cetera, and the
interface to the host, as you mentioned,because it's meant to be removable,
et cetera is just a smart card.
ISO 78, 16 with commands.
(17:17):
It's it's that simple.
And the content of those commandsof course, need to be aligned with
what we sent from the Acme app to theAcme card so that it does the actions
that we wish it's basically that
Mishaal (17:30):
simple.
Right?
So the, this E IM OS, can youtell us a little bit about that?
What kind of programs?
I guess very, very, very basic fromwhat I read Java card SIM apples,
like, can you tell us a bit aboutwhat's actually running on the EIM?
The
Christos (17:45):
most important part here is the certificate.
There is a mechanism that requires the ES C to authenticate itself to the let's
call it network or server the us E Cbeing the client and the other way around.
So both need to authenticate each other.
And from there.
(18:06):
There is another piece of softwarethat does the work, which is, uh,
we are going to talk a bit later.
The LPA, the local profess assistantcan also be implemented in the us C, C.
We are going to build a version that willhave it, but it it's not at the moment.
So the us C is only fulfillthe GSMA standard in terms of
(18:27):
exchanging the information with our.
Mishaal (18:29):
Okay.
So just in summary, all thiscommunication is supposed to
happen in a standardized way.
You have a Java card, apple that'srunning in the ESM OS of the E Y C C.
And that communicates both waysthrough app due commands, which stands
for application protocol, data, unitcommands, and all of those commands.
Those are following a standarddefinition, the ISO 7 816 dash four.
(18:53):
So all of this is, is kind ofstandardized, but one thing I was
interested for me to learn about was thatprior to Android nine, which introduced
the open mobile API or O M API, thatthere was a bit of inconsistencies in
the way that Silicon would actuallyhave their devices communicate with
the smart card on their device.
(19:15):
So I wanted to ask you, if you couldtell us a bit about the situation,
like prior to Android nine, can youtell us about what it was like for.
An app, like ISA me tocommunicate with ISA me card.
Like, was that even possible?
And what did O M B I a do to change?
We have
Christos (19:33):
customers using under five on their phones.
This is the, the oldest hundred versionthat we have, uh, seen customers
successfully using the EME caught anmeapp with the similar lines on MAPP.
Is the OPI library that was before Androidand was used by OEMs like Samsung Harvey.
(19:55):
Samsung did a very good job implementingthis and also continue to use similar
lines OPI even beyond Android lines.
So you have both APIs with themand sometimes we have to switch
between them depending on.
The implementation of theSIM card readers, because
they may not be accessible.
(20:15):
And we tried the one or the otherway, but the way was the same.
There are also other ways of communicatingwith the SIM card, with the very
independent protocol with binary SMS,with a lot of things that are not.
Really related in to Android.
So, so a network provider mobileoperator can talk to its SIM cards,
(20:36):
uh, through the mobile network.
They basically sent communication that istransposing through the Android system.
But if we are talking about an appcommunicating, this is then done through
a MAPP and then eventually open a logicalchannel, sending commands, uh, et cetera.
That's that's the
Mishaal (20:55):
implementation.
So O mappy, by the way, if I didn'tmention before was introduced in
Android nine for a O S P prior tothat, as Christos mentioned, some
OEMs would integrate the librarythemselves, but it's now a standard
feature as of Android nine and later.
And I believe there's even a compatibilitytest suite test that checks for home APIs,
(21:18):
whether or not it's been implemented.
Correct.
So your app, as you mentioned, workswithout root and depending on OS
version, it uses om, API commands orother commands, depending on the device.
I wanted to ask you now, howexactly is your app allowed to send
these commands to the Emme card?
And how do you ensure that only yourapp is able to communicate with the Emme
(21:40):
card and not just any other third partyapp that you download off a Google play?
Like, how does this
Christos (21:43):
privilege work?
As I mentioned before, our goalwas not to require any permissions
or not to require any unnecessarypermissions from the user or the OEM.
The only permissions thatwe ask the user to provide.
And these are only optional is,uh, permission to use the camera.
If you want to scan the QR code todownload the Asim profile and the gallery.
(22:06):
To access a Q code.
This is very interesting because theway that it works is, uh, for example,
you buy in , they send you an emailwith a Q code, some operators send
you a postcard with a printed Q code.
That's that's not really environmentalfriendly and not really digital, but yeah,
they, they just print on a SIM category.
(22:27):
However, if I buy online and.
Delivered to me by email, Iwould store it in the gallery.
And then from the gallery, Ican read it with in the app.
So these are the two permissions we ask,but if you don't want to give this two
permissions, you can just enter it manual.
You it's like a URL that youenter with some code, and then
you can download the profile.
(22:48):
The rights that we get.
Are, uh, sourced by the card.
So the card has certificates that declarewhich applications that are assigned
with specific keys are allowed to access.
And we have a set of keys.
Which means that our E CME app has access,but we are also open to provide access
(23:12):
or similar to the entitlement that thatmanufacturers give to other, let's say
developers to access their E U SCCs.
Uh, we have the same option.
So developers are open to contact usin this regards with the advantage.
Say that even if, if somebody saysI have Android running on Google,
Android, running on Samsung, or in othermanufacturers, they would require the
(23:36):
entitlement from each manufacturer, notGoogle as an Android, but Google as a
manufacturer, Samsung as a manufacturerbecause it's access to the hardware.
So this is done with thecase at the same time.
We allow access to the system apps.
So you can access the EME cardwith your SIM manager from
(24:00):
the Google settings up to 111.
It was even.
Possible to download EI profiles becausethe ECM card has a higher priority to the
embedded S C but with hundred 12, theyspecifically address the embedded us C
so that you have to use the Acme app.
But the system itself has accessto the cart is the E S C standard.
(24:24):
So we allow access tothe system itself as.
Mishaal (24:28):
So it's quite interesting.
The way mechanism that this works isactually a certificate that declares,
which apps can interface with iton the Android side and whatever
other operating system is available.
When I was reading through this, I, Ilearned about this is all part of a U
I C C carrier privileged permission.
So basically it's a way for an app toaccess certain privileged telephone
(24:51):
APIs without actually having tobe system pre-installed or having
to be granted a specific permiss.
So this way, EIM dot E is theonly user installed app that can
interface with the ES IME card.
You can't install anyother app on Google play.
That's able to do what the Esme appis able to do, which is download and
manage profiles on the em.me card.
(25:13):
This actually is quite similarto like all other same cards.
Basically you have your carrierapps, which are able to access
carrier privileged APIs inthis, in this very similar way.
This is all standardized through the file.
The whole certificate wouldcall them access rule file.
I believe so.
Um, it was very interesting to learn that.
But one thing that I did discover while Iwas using the eim.me app, is that it's not
(25:38):
able to be pre-installed it's not able tobe integrated into Android settings, like
say Google SIM manager app is, and nowI wanted to ask you about why that's the
case and what would be required in orderto get in ES IM app actually integrated
into the Android operating system.
As like, you know, you go to settings,you're able to directly add anim profile.
Like you can on a pixel.
(25:59):
So, can you tell us about some of thethings that would be required in order
to do that in order to actually integrateyour app into Android OS setting?
Christos (26:06):
What is required is a communication to two directions.
The one is the communication to the RSP,the server that holds the profiles.
This is standardized howit's going to be implemented.
And the other is theconnection to the U I C C.
This application does not need to becertified because it's only the transport.
(26:27):
Let's say the translator,it downloads the profile.
It slices the profile down into commands,and then it is sending it to the U S C C
prior to this, there is the authenticationprocess necessary where the LPA.
Just exchange the informationbetween those two.
And this is why the LPA does notreally have to be in the app.
(26:49):
It can be in the system, it canbe in the app and it can even
be embedded on the chip itself.
This is called LPA E forembedded this time on the chip,
Mishaal (26:59):
a couple of terms are thrown around just now, as you
mentioned, LPA before stands forlocal profile assistant, it's actually
part of the GS A's EIM standard.
So if you look up the GSMA SGP two,two, One of the section talks about
local profile assistant for deviceand that the other one is local
profile assistant for embedded.
So LPA in terms of Androidis the EIM management app.
(27:21):
Google's SIM manager app would be anexample of an L P a D implementation.
Um, another term that Chris hasmentioned before RSP, which is the remote
SIM provisioning, the server on thecarrier side is called the SMDP plus.
So subscription manager,data preparation, plus.
And that server that they deploys,what supports RSP, remote SIM
(27:41):
provisioning, but that's all not Android.
What is Android side is the L P aD, which is the application that
actually helps the user downloadSIM profiles using a QR code, either
downloaded or something they can scan.
There are several applications thatbasically act as an L P a D brand Android.
The EIM me app is basicallykind of like that.
(28:02):
Then there's also an open sourceproject, which I talked about in
my post called open E U Y C C.
, I wanted to ask about yourthoughts on this project and what
are you doing in relation to it?
Christos (28:13):
I think that this is something for OEMs to implement
their LPAs in their systems.
Something that we didn't mention beforeis how can Google make sure that the map
is implemented accurately in the devices?
Fortunately, since 109, themap is there, unfortunately.
(28:33):
The OEMs do not implementit correctly or fully.
So maybe there is no MAPI.
Maybe there is O MAPI only for theN C chip, but not for us C or maybe
there is O MAPI for the us C, butthere is no access to the SIM readers.
And this is why we have createdthis compatibility check.
And maybe this open us C is a way.
(28:53):
For those OEMs to an update to integratethis functionality, to their phones.
We, as Acme are welcoming other LPAsto access our cart because our cart,
the Acme card is a secure element.
And the secure element, the one thingthat it can do is store in profiles.
(29:13):
But the secure element is the same.
Technology that we see onsmart cards for credit cards.
So we can store payment information.
It can be sliced into secure domains andthose secure domains can hold information
like keys, like payment information, likeany other kind of tokens, et cetera, that.
(29:36):
Users or developers are going todevelop and create other products.
So, so we create the foundation on thephysical level and provide the access,
and this can enable other developersto basically build on top of that.
So LPA is just one thing.
And with the secure element, I thinkwe provide a platform and a marketplace
(29:58):
where these things can become reality.
And the Acme app is not only an LPA.
Actually it started very primitiveand we expanded because we've seen
the feedback from the audience that,uh, now that I have the storage to
basically store EIM profiles, wheredo I get those EI profiles from?
(30:20):
And why do I have to gosomewhere else, et cetera.
And we are creating a carrierneutral marketplace where everybody
can offer their easy profiles.
We are going to do KYC.
For them in some countries it'srequired to know your customer.
And if I am, let's say in Germany andI buy anim profile from Doche tele,
(30:42):
from T-Mobile, I need to do KFC there.
And then if I switch toVodafone, I need to do KOC there.
And there are a lot of hurdles thatmake this standard a bit unconvenient.
And while if you have a platform.
Compare it with Amazon as a marketplace,your credit card is store there.
Your address is known you only clickand buy, and we want to create a
(31:03):
similar marketplace for it in profiles.
So that users do not have to start thisonboarding process from the beginning.
It is authentication.
It is payment gateway, et cetera.
David (31:15):
This is I think where strategically, maybe we
can zoom out a little bit.
Just like the situationwith telecom operators.
For example, they have a lotstaked on keeping the physical SIM
standard alive, as long as theycan, especially here in the us.
They are very, very attachedto it and they really have been
(31:36):
very reticent to give it up.
So I'm sure that that is also somethingthat is kind of slow walked this
technology for a number of years now,especially as we go to EIM, because
to me, the carriers, like you said,they intentionally try to make this
difficult or imposed with cost avery arbitrary and capricious way.
It's it has nothing to dowith helping customers.
(31:59):
It has everything to do with makingswitching services and products.
Very difficult.
So it's interesting to me that even em,which I think was in many ways designed
to be friendly to the carrier's concernsabout competition, that y'all were able
to come up with the solution that actuallymodularizes the standard and says, oh,
(32:21):
you can take it anywhere with you now.
That to me is whatmakes it so interesting.
Have you had any conversations withany carriers or manufacturers or other
people in the industry who said I waswaiting for somebody to make this?
I knew it was possible oris it truly just surprise?
Like we literally did notthink this could be done.
Christos (32:39):
I agree with you.
Operators ly think that if they stick toa Simco, they lock down the customer, but
of course the Simco can be replaced withanother Simco and ISIM is a threat to
their eyes because they think that on themarket, they're going to lose a customer.
They don't see that this customeris going to another operator
(33:00):
that could be themselves.
So if I don't offer something,they cannot buy from me.
And if I offer ES IM with an app,Like some operators do, then I cannot
actually call it E and because theydon't give you the activation code
to basically see it as an standard.
But this being said, I think that this issimilar to the number portability that you
(33:24):
didn't have in many countries over years.
It, it established this way.
Uh, we have countries,uh, like Saudi Arabia.
where every operator has Zim andwhere they offer 30% discount.
To EIM compared to Simco.
I mentioned before they know yourcustomer, they're onboarding.
If you have prepaid customers, youhave onboarding costs and those
(33:46):
customers can leave you anyway.
So you don't make any margin ifthey don't stay for a time with you.
So I think that we cannot convinceoperators that EIM is something good for
them and for the future, but we can seean analogy with, do I need a website?
Do I need a web presence?
You know, Back when onlinestores, et cetera, uh, created,
(34:08):
we just let them take their time.
We, of course, we've spoken tomany operators because we are an
operator ourselves and we havethe context to all of them and
they, the most of them think of.
We are going to wait until there are ISIMonly devices and then we have to move.
But we also know, and we see this insome markets that if one operator starts
(34:31):
advertising starts pushing marketing this,then the others will follow in no time.
So we see in Europe, forexample, there is, uh, no
roaming between countries agree.
So within the European union,there's no roaming charges allowed.
And then you have, let's say.
Polish operators selling in Europe,uh, check operators selling in Europe.
(34:52):
It doesn't help the German operators toprotect their SIM card because they're
going to buy from somewhere else anyway.
And the same will ishappening in north America.
We we've seen Canadians buying Asian EIMS.
To use in north Americabecause they only need data.
So they don't have to pay forvoice packages or whatever.
(35:13):
I think it's just a matter of time.
It's it's ISIM is a new path andthe faster they jump on this, the
better market share they can secure.
Mishaal (35:24):
Yeah.
I think the convenience at EIMreally can't be understated in some
situations like my cousin she'svisiting us from Bangladesh and of
course she needs a local Sy cardbecause she's here for several weeks.
So because she has an iPhone, I rememberthat T-Mobile actually offers an app
that just completely guides you throughthe process of setting up an EES.
I profile within the appand paying within the app.
(35:46):
Within a matter of like five minutes,we had service up and running for.
I didn't have to go anywhere else.
I didn't have to go to a store.
Didn't have to shop around for one ofthe various MBN OS that offer plans.
It was just at home connectedto my wifi network, five minutes
up and running with a new plan.
And as you mentioned, even smallercarriers, like in surprise markets
like Canada, connecting to an ES IMoffering from Hong Kong, three, three
(36:09):
Hong Kong, I believe is the carrierthat many of them subscribing to.
There's an opportunity there that a fewcarriers are actually taking advantage of.
And, you know, it's a bit of a chickenand egg situation where more carriers
are waiting for devices to go EIMonly, but devices won't go EIM.
Only if few carriers are supporting EIM.
So like, We're kind of a stuck atthe standstill where the highest
(36:30):
end premium phones have in EIM andthey also have a physical SIM card.
But there's also a littletechnical limitation with the ES.
I currently in that most ES IMSonly support having one of their
SIM profiles active at a time.
And as you mentioned, Chris, four, yoursolution supports enabling multiple ES I
(36:51):
profiles because you can have one ES IIMprofile enabled on your ES IM me card.
And then another one enabled on thephones built in ES I, or you could
have a phone with dual in card slotsand you could have two Essem me.
But something interesting that I learnedabout recently is that Android 13 is
implementing a new feature called multipleenabled profiles, which would enable
(37:14):
you to have two SIM profiles stored onan EIM at the same time, it would allow
you to use both them at the same time.
So I wanted to ask your thoughtson this multiple enable profiles
feature and whether or not it'ssomething that actually could
be done with an eim.me card.
Christos (37:31):
This is a great feature.
Uh, I really welcome this.
Uh, if it's available for us to accessit, we are going to implement this
also forme we had, uh, customersactually, let's start to define how
those multiple is improves, can be used.
It is determined by the numberof SIM card slot, and eventually
by the number of moderns.
(37:53):
So if I have two mode, I can havetwo subscriptions active at a time.
And even in some cases where somebodyhas a dual SIM phone, but wants to use a
second SIM card slot for, he says D card.
It will be a benefit because hecan have one Acme card with two
profiles addressing the two modewhile he has an SD card on the.
(38:14):
That's a lot.
So there is a use case forthis and there is we, we have
received many requests for this.
Uh, so I think it's a,it's a good feature.
And we will implement this.
The access for this is possible meansif the OEM will enable this access,
because it's depending also on them, howlimited this new feature will be similar
(38:35):
to the O MAPI on the, on the previous
Mishaal (38:36):
things.
From what I read according to Google'spatent, it doesn't actually require
two modems for MEP to work, which theconventional wisdom that you would
need for every active SIM profile.
If you want an active dataconnection, you need a second modem,
but, uh, DSDs or dual standby.
DOSIM dual standby.
You could still have EIM MEPwork with a single modem.
(39:00):
Google's patent describes aopening two logical connections
from the SIM car to the modem.
And yeah, I'm curious tosee how it's gonna work.
It's something Google hasn't announcedyet, but there's some documentation
available for it and whether or notthis can be extended to removable.
E YCCS is another story entire.
I
Christos (39:19):
haven't seen the patent.
So I cannot tell something aboutthe patent, but I've seen the
description where you can basicallyaddress two or three mode.
I haven't seen a device with threemode, but at least from the theory
point of view, this is possible.
If their patent can talk tomultiple, let's say networks,
et cetera, in a time differencethan maybe this is also possible.
(39:40):
So theoretically it's possible.
Uh, if there is a requirement fromthe network, That's another thing.
So open to see what this pattern willlook like and how the let's say the mobile
network will or will not have to implementpart of the pattern to, to make it work.
David (39:57):
And another reason this is, I think also starting to come up is that as 5g
networks reach saturation, there are goingto be use cases where having multiple
networks actually is going to providea material benefit to the end user.
And that end user could besomebody doing something like
downloading a very large file.
We've already seen heterogeneousnetworking technology, like Samsung
(40:20):
phones like that, this for years whereyou can use wifi and LT at the same time.
Uh, to boost your download speeds,obviously in America carriers hate
this feature because they would ratheryou be on wifi and nothing else, but
it goes to show that there are goingto be use cases that drive that.
And so if you are able to have aphone that uses what you know, to
be the most reliable data connectionor device that uses the most
(40:43):
reliable data connection day to.
But can keep an active profileenabled that is particularly for
like super high throughput downloadsmaybe, and maybe those are only
necessary during business hours.
And so you have it connected to the highthroughput network when the device is
active and being used, but when shuts off.
It goes down to thesuper low power network.
And maybe that's like a 5g IOT networkwhere it's really just sending some basic
(41:06):
packet data, time to time the check in.
So I'm sure that there are all kindsof use cases out there that have really
yet to be explored for things like this.
And as we make it more integratedon the device, I think that we'll
see those use cases start toemerge the biggest limiting factor.
And I I'm guessing wouldagree, Christo is that.
The physical side of a SIM cardis that it has to go in something.
(41:30):
You have to get it.
And there's one SIM card per device.
And that just makes doing anythingcomplex or unique as far as a
configuration, much more challengingwhen you're making SIM cards.
It's probably a very big scalekind of thing you're doing.
Like an, operator's not going tobe like, oh, we're going to make
this very special configuration forthis one customer on our network.
(41:50):
That's uniquely coded to these SIMcards and they can do special things
that other customers can't nobody'sproviding that kind of service.
So it would make sense that thetechnology should move to the device
and end user side to be managed there.
So that the implementations,just depending on how much
does this cost me to do this.
So the carrier just goesback to being that dumb bite.
Instead of a glorified servicesprovider, which we know they
(42:14):
all aren't, , they're just bits.
So this is really cool.
And I think that you guys havean amazingly interesting product,
and this is usually where I wouldplug where Asper fits in with it.
Um, this one's a little harder for usbecause, you know, we do have mobile
data use case, and it's very interesting,but I've really thought about this
and I'm like, I'm not sure exactly.
But I am sure that eventually we willhave customers wear more flexibility
(42:39):
around mobile data, 5g and Essem isgoing to become a priority because it's
a matter of flexibility for businesses.
Being able to switch providers on the flywould be an amazing way to potentially
reduce your costs or to up your data.
Throughput, if you need more and justbe more competitive, this is all about
helping customers move faster, right?
Making decisions about their network orswitching networks or whatever it may be.
(43:03):
And I think that that is a superdefensible goal for any business in the
tech industry, because this is a problem.
And it's a problem that in many wayshas been artificially constructed
as a business competition barrier.
And it's cool to see somebodystarting to tear it down.
Christos (43:21):
Actually, we are working with mobile operators and we try
to visualize this opportunity.
If I, for example, as a endcustomer, I have to choose between
two networks, one being the premiumnetworks, which is expensive.
And the other one, whichis cheaper with not a good
coverage, I don't have to choose.
(43:42):
I can use both.
So having the ability to use both.
Imagine that if, for example, youintroduce the prepaid model where
customers can buy your service fora day, but not to go to the shop,
not to wait for shipping, et cetera,they just, they don't have coverage.
And now they havecoverage to your network.
Sell them connectivity.
(44:04):
Right on the spot.
Right?
So, so there is opportunity.
And I think that, uh, it willtake some time for operators to
realize that there is opportunity.
Uh, but definitely there is a benefitfor the consumer and if something
is good for the consumer, peoplewill find the way to buy to get
Mishaal (44:23):
it.
Well, that's all the, uh, questionsthat I had for this episode.
I just wanted to thank youChristus again for joining us.
And before we close off, I wanted tohave you tell people where they can
find you online if you're online,anywhere and where they can follow
for updates from you and your company.
Christos (44:43):
Uh, they con contact, uh, me personally through my LinkedIn profile.
Of course they can contact us throughour websites, uh, contact from this
is, uh, we respond to every request.
We, we get a lot ofdifferent ideas, et cetera.
We are open to everybody.
We have.
Actually received orders andcustomers from around 170 countries.
(45:06):
So we see a lot of traction and weare open to developers that want
to build on top of what we created.
And we are also open to listen tocustomers that have maybe specific
needs that we haven't thought about.
So LinkedIn and on a websiteis I think, a good place to.
Mishaal (45:24):
Okay, well, thank you for the outro.
And as you've already mentioned,you can find David and i@esper.io.
And this podcast is Android bites.
We have a webpage up, but youcan also find all our podcast
episodes on blog, doper.io.
So thank you again,Christmas for joining us.
Thanks David, for joining me on anotherepisode and thank you all for listening.
(45:46):
See you next time.
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