Chargers Weekly: Draft Options With PFF's Mike Renner

Matt "Money" Smith and Chris Hayre are joined by Pro Football Focus lead draft analyst Mike Renner (00:24). Among the topics: what the Chargers may do at No. 21 overall (01:45), getting offensive weapons for Justin Herbert (01:45), philosophy on drafting running backs (13:53), options across the defensive line and more (16:15). The guys close the episode with takeaways from this week's owners meetings in Arizona (43:14).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The late fifteen ten touchdowns. We're exactly twenty eight days
from the NFL Draft. Welcome into another episode of Chargers Weekly,
as always, joined by Matt Money, Smith and Money. We

(00:21):
got our front of the show right off the top.
Lead draft analyst Pro Football Focus Mike Renner, and you
mentioned this last week. We're just talking about it all fair.
You've done a few of these these bock draft simulators.
How many hundred? A lot? A lot. It's fun. You know.
I cannot recommend it enough. People go to PF dot
com one download Mike's draft guide. It's awesome. It's it's

(00:44):
time consuming. You'll find yourself lost. You look up and
you've spend an hour and a half reading what Mike's
probably put what eight months into ten months into Mike,
it's uh, no doubt, labor of love. I would assume
it has to be for the amount of time you
put into it. But the mock draft, let's just start there, Mike.
This thing's incredible for people they kind of can't. Maybe
I'll actually fire one off on Turbo and you can

(01:04):
walk me through, because I would assume it's your rankings
that are that are at play when it comes to
the mock draft simulator. So you see my rankings that
are the mock draft simulator, but like the actual draft
order is somewhat random, and the way the players come
off the board, there's a randomness. But we base it
off of a lot of public facing boards, whether it's
like Daniel Jeremiah, whether Dame brug We're like a lot

(01:27):
of the draft analysts kind of get a conglomerate consensus opinion,
and that's kind of where the guys end up coming
off the board. So let's here we go. Ready, we're
gonna we're gonna fire one right here, and I'm gonna
take the Chargers at twenty one. I'm gonna enter the draft.
I got it on turbo, and you're gonna tell me
what you think the best option is and start draft.
Here we go, twenty one. We got Dalton Kincaid. When

(01:47):
we've talked about a lot tight end, Gerald Everett coming back, No,
Dalton Schultz. We got Nolan Smith. We need some edge
rush depth, Za Flowers, need some explosiveness there at the
wide receiver. And let's say, okay, so we got two
tight ends Michael Mary there as well. So if I
throw those four names, oh, in the cornerback Deante Banks.

(02:10):
You all needs for the charger. So if that's what
Tom Talsco is staring at, and I give you this
option as well, Mike, you can trade down someone wants
to jump into that spot and we'll give you a two,
a three, and let's just say a future three as well.
So how about that. I like the idea of trading down.
If all those guys are on the board right there,

(02:31):
I think they're in a good spot to trade down
because I think there's kind of like a couple of
tiers in this draft class and I don't think they're
going to get into that first tier of position players,
and so they're gonna have a lot of options on
the board available, and so like all those guys you mentioned,
I think they'd be happy with any of them. So
I think this is raster that needs to sort of
plan long term thinking wise, because justin Herbert's extensions coming

(02:54):
out right, there's gonna be a lot of money going
his way. And when that's the case, you need cheap talent.
You can't get that one piece that's the difference between
you and a championship. You know, you're in the same
division as Patrick Mahomes. There is no one piece that's
going to be the difference between you and a championship.
You need to be there every single year. If you're
the Los Angeles Chargers and so do that. It takes
more rookie talent keep breeding that young talent, So that

(03:15):
would be the route I'd explore if I had to
pick any of those guys, though, I think the one
I keep coming back to for the charge if he's
there is Dalton Kincaid, the tight end, and I don't
usually go to bat for tight ends that high in
the draft, which should tell you like how good a
prospect Kincaid is, but it's just the reliability aspect of him.
I think he pairs very well with Justin Herbert's game,

(03:36):
because Herbert is a guy who is a flamethrower, and
he's going to throw with anticipation to you. You better
be ready to catch it. Some of these other smaller
slot wide receivers I don't think pair well with Justin
Herbert and kind of like if you have a smaller
catch radius, I just don't think he's going to target
you very much. And that is not the case with
Dalton cain Kad. Massive catch radius, some of the best

(03:58):
ball skills I've ever seen from a tight end prospect.
So pairing him in that offense, I just think he
would go off. I think it would be a perfect
fit and kind of something they're missing. Like we've talked
so much about the tight end position the last few
weeks specifically, and money has been on the concaid train
since I don't know when, since you were you're covering
Utah games right back back Uta USC game and watched

(04:20):
them absolutely destroy a defense single handedly. What would he
mean to a Charger's office with Mike Williams and Keenan Allen. Obviously,
this Austin Eckler situation is still in flux, but obviously
Gerald Everard is there kind of the short term. But
to get you a Travis Kelsey like player in pairing
with Justin Herbert in the West, that sounds like a

(04:41):
pretty good formula. I think it is. And I think
the one thing they're they're missing a couple of things
in there, Stephen cor at the moment, in my opinion,
one they're missing pure dynamism, like a guy who can
really stretch the football field. But to me, you can
find that in the second and third round this receiving class.
I don't think this class is short on those type
but wide receivers that really have some juice to bring

(05:02):
to the table. But I also think what they need
is a guy who can win one on one consistently
when you see man coverage, and the beauty of a
Dalton kincaide is that he's not getting covered by corners
the way Mike Williams and Keenan Allen are. He's getting
covered by safety so he can covered by linebackers when
you see man coverage and all of a sudden, that's
you know, mismatch, that's green light going right to him.

(05:23):
So I think that would be, you know, a thing
that they're missing that again would really kind of have
a wave like effect, and that it would impact everyone
else and if everyone else's life easier in that receiving corps,
Mike a lotta you know you mentioned Daniel DJ's got
Zay Flowers mocked to the Chargers. Right now at twenty one,
Dalton's off the board. I think he has him going

(05:45):
to the Patriots if I remember right in this most
recent mock. But let's just to get into Zay. You know,
I'm sure you know, like everybody, it seems as though
this is now the receiver that maybe started down in
the five six slot. Chris Sim's got him his number one.
You know, the athletic guys are freaking out over him.
DJ's got him going to the Chargers kind of walk
us through Zay Jones and kind of why he feels

(06:07):
like he's getting this push and a lot of people
think he might be the best receiver in this draft.
He's got that kind of Noah when you see a
type of athleticism that is just if he wants to
go in a straight line, it's fast. If he wants
to turn left, it's fast. If he wants to stop,
it's fast. Like everything he kind of does almost reminiscent

(06:27):
of like a poor man's jail and wattle, and that's
just he's sudden. He is a very quick dude, and
that's what's winning in the NFL. That's the way of
the world at the wide receiver position today is you
need guys who create space on their own and Zay
Flowers is one of them. And so again, if you're
thinking kind of what I just said, what the Charger
receiving corps is missing, it is missing that high end

(06:50):
caliber of athlete that if he's running you know deep
out of safety has to be accounted for. That's really
going to you know, again, make corners and safeties play
more often open up windows then underneath four year underneath
guys like Mike Williams and Keenan Allen. So I think
that's why you're seeing that connection being made a ton Mike.
What about Quentin Johnson for TCU. I you've tweetered about him.

(07:12):
I think there's varying opinions about him and his style
play and how would that look in a Chargers offense,
especially when we don't really know the future of Mike
and Keenan beyond twenty twenty three. Yeah, So that's the
thing is, I'm not sure the role he fits in
there and maybe you know, if again to your four
would think and you're thinking post life with Keenan Allen,

(07:34):
he can obviously take over that role, but he is
an outside type of wide receiver. That's the body type
he has, that's the play that's where he played pretty
much exclusively at TCU, and I think that's where he
shines is like the vertical tree to me, like the
role ideal role for him is a lot like the
ideal role for DK Metcalf that DK Metcal's playing in
Seattle at the next level, which is he's your let

(07:55):
you know, he's one side of the formation wide receiver.
He's the guy that you know, if you have a
small or corner over there on him, you're a little
worried because he is so big, because he does have
such a big catch rasis because he can't get down
the football field. But he is a project. I do
think he's not nearly the refined route runner as is
a Flowers, Jackson Smith and Jig but Jordanas and the

(08:15):
other three wide receivers getting pretty firm first round hype
at the moment. But in terms of pure physical talent,
like this guy is unique. He's right up in the
realms of you know, the Jamar Chases, the Julio Jones
is of just like athletes that you don't see every
single year at the position. So I think he's well
worth taking a chance on. But you do have to
just realize that he is much more of a boomer

(08:38):
Bus prospect the probably these other guys. All Right, we're
in round two mock draft simulator pick number four, Trey
didn't come through. We've taken Dalton kincaide for uster justin
in the first round. Second round, Now Nathaniel Dell is there.
If we want a wide receiver, you got edge rusher
Tuli Tupolotu of a usc sitting there corner Garrett Williams

(09:01):
and a lot of people start to kind of push
him up, him up a little bit, Carl Brooks, the
edge out of Bowling Green is sitting there. Just kind
of your thoughts. Let's see if there's any other wide receivers,
because we just want to load up on offense. Michael Wilson.
I know a lot of people starting to get high
on Michael Wilson. So maybe let's focus on a couple
of those wide receivers, Rashi, Rice Smu just kind of

(09:22):
a few of those, or if you like the edge
until we put it through, like kind of just your
thoughts of what's available here in the second Yeah, take
Dell would be a guy who would bring you know,
he's almost like a poor man Zay Flowers in this
draft class, and that he's just a little bit lighter,
a little bit shorter, although he does have a bigger wingspan.
I believe then Zay Flowers, which to me is more
important at wide receiver. It's your ability to you know,
make plays outside your frame that matters, not your ability

(09:44):
to get you know, ten eleven feet in the year necessarily.
That is the bigger aspect of playing wide receiver. So
he's a guy that if again, if you're not getting
one of the wide receivers, you're not getting that dynamism
on day one. At the wide receiver position, it would
be guys like Tank Deal, guys Kashaw Boutet from LSU,
guys like Marvin Mims from Oklahoma, all names that you know,

(10:05):
bring some athleticism, even Tyler Scott from Cincinnati bring you know,
low four fours take the top off a defense sort
of thing. You just need that threat. You don't necessarily
need them to come in and catch one hundred balls.
You just need that to be able to deploy in
certain ways in your offense. I love the way we're
doing this interview is money does the mocks. I'm going
to ask you just about some of these storylines that

(10:26):
may affect the Chargers, and I think the biggest name
that could be really a wild card in the first
round is heading Hooker like if five quarterbacks go before
the Chargers of twenty one, maybe a blue chipper at
a certain position group falls in their lap. How do
you view this quarterback class? Obviously the Chargers have their quarterback,
but there's a lot of entry with those first four.

(10:46):
And now you're hearing about Hooker, and you know, obviously
that that injury last year kind of takes him out
of people's minds a little bit, but he was excellent
at Tennessee. He was, and it's a good quarterback class.
I like the top four. I think last year you
were just comparing those four to last year's class, all

(11:06):
four would have gone as QB one. I think all
four would have been top ten picks last year. And
the only reason one of those top four might fall
this year it is just because there's too many, right,
you know, we saw it even in twenty twenty one
when there was you know, Justin Fields fell out of
top ten, Mac Jones Halls out of top ten, just
because there's not enough landing spots for these guys. So
we could see that, and that's that's also why I

(11:27):
don't necessarily buy the Hooker into the first round. Hype
is because of landing spots is because of how many
people are going to say my one first round pick
that I have. And now there are like a bunch
of teams in this year's draft that have multiple more
so than usual. But with my one first round pick,
I'm going to use it on a guy who's gonna
have to red shirt year one, who's coming off of
torn because he's coming off torn acl playing from an

(11:49):
offense in Tennessee. That was, you know, gimmick. Yeah, like
it not NFL. I'll just say not NFL concepts. And
then he's twenty five years old, so just not a
strong profile that you don't need to take that chance
round one. You could fall in love with his tape,
but I just don't think anyone's going to see that
and say, yeah, that'll be my one first round pick. Yeah,

(12:13):
I guess. So what do you think is behind the heat, Mike,
Because it does feel like there's like there's a little
and we kind of know the characteristics that Chris Ballard likes.
There's heat connecting him to the Colts at this point,
where like where is that coming from? Well, he has
talented again, his tape is good, he has tools, he
has a strong arm, like his arms right up there

(12:34):
with I don't think it's quite Will Levis or Anthony Richardson,
but I probably put it a little bit better than
even like Bryce Young and CJ. Strout in terms of
natural Whippy has is a great athlete, and everyone's searching
for those tools, right, That's what you see a year
and a year out. What's winning or what the path
to sort of high end that the NFL looks like

(12:54):
is rushing ability paired with a big arm that gives
you options in today's NFL, when you don't have to
be just your pocket passers of old that has to
hit everything in timing, you can go create on your own.
So I think Henny Hooker brings some of that to
the table. They've already seen kind of the high end
production that he put on the football field, So there

(13:15):
is a lot to like. But again with those knocks,
it just comes down to the investment. How much are
you willing to make And I can't see a team
willing to invest that much in him. Chris. I was
just gonna say, Mike, we've had this debate kind of
all offseason about drafting a running back in the first round. Question,

(13:36):
there you go Bijan Robinson is that guy that we
talk about and what he could be in a Charger's
office with Justin Herbert. How much more dynamic Justin Herbert
can be with with a bell cut like Bjohn Robinson
back there, even with Austin Eckler in the offense. Just
wondering where you fall in terms of drafting a running
back in the first round. And let's just say for

(13:58):
the sake of this conversation, I don't think he will,
but let's say Robinson is there at twenty one in
the Chargers are looking at that card thinking maybe we
turn this in. So I don't think I'm not completely
against the idea of drafting running back in the first round.
It is, in some offenses a valuable position, and you're

(14:19):
getting them at their prime, right, You're getting them at
their prime, and you're getting them fairly cheap. I'm definitely
against paying top dollar for running backs and premes. He
wants to hit like twenty seven, twenty eight, But there's
little reason to think that Bejan Robinson won't be an
insanely productive NFL player. The problem is, do I want
to take the ball out of Justin Herbert's tans? The
answer to that is no, I think Justin Herbert has

(14:41):
shown that he can carry a full workload. You know,
he can be a fifty to sixty drop backs the game,
and you want him to be that. And so then
from that perspective, like you're already diminishing the value. If
you're only going to give Bejan Robinson twelve carries a game,
you're twelve to fifteen carries. Again, that's you're already diminishing that.
So already taking it down a step. And then I
don't think you want to be drafting running backs highly

(15:04):
to try to fix your offensive line to go and
assume that a running back is going to be able
to succeed behind poor run blocking. If you don't have
that aspect in place, first, a running back is not
going to especially in today's NFL. It's just not going
to provide that return on investment. So I'm only four
draft running backs if one you don't have necessarily like

(15:27):
the guy at quarterback, If you are kind of like
where the Falcons are, if you're a run heavy team
as an ethos to begin with, and you have maybe
an average to slightly above average quarterback, then I'll draft
a running back to make him my focal point. If
I have the offensive line to take my running game
to that level that's like the unstoppable level. That's fine
to do in my opinion. But if you're any other team,

(15:47):
like the difference between him in round one and say
you take Bigsby from Auburn around three, you're splitting hairs
with the value they'd bring to the Chargers. Whereas then
that first rounder that's a wide receiver like say Flowers,
going to bring a lot more on the table. All right, well,
let's go to round three. Let's see if we got

(16:08):
Isaiah McGuire, we took we took Uh, we took dal
by the way, so we got a wide receiver, we
got our tight end. Here's some edge options. Isaiah McGuire,
kJ Henry, Mike Morris, Carl Brooks all there. Uh, let's
see if our guy, Yeah, Tank Bigsby's there, Dwayne McBride
is there, Kendra Miller is there. Uh. We are big

(16:29):
proponents on the pod, uh, Mike of draft an offensive lineman,
if not two, maybe even three every single year. Develop
you see how what a premium that position has turned
into in terms of free agency, what you're paying tackles,
So we got a couple of tackles here, Tyler Steen,
Luke Haggard, Connor, Galvin Er. There a couple interior offensive

(16:49):
linemen if uh, let's see, oh Vorhees is there so
maybe a little red shirt, but you get a little
value on on Vorhees uh Zavala, Olawa, Timy. So couple
couple options there. I guess if you want to, I'm
happy to pull any other position group up. That's the
magic of this mock draft simulator. What's the corner class
look like? People? Is a deep deep Like that position

(17:12):
to me is the deepest of any positions. I guess
running back kind of his two, but corner just year
on year comparatively. Like there are so many names that
I watched them like that's you know, that guy should
be a top hundred pick. That guy should be a
top hundred pick. And the third round then feels like
a good spot if you're the charges to take pick
eighty five. You got Syracuse, williams Hodges, Tomlinson, Jalen Jones,

(17:34):
A and M. Bennett, Maryland, Kelly Stanford, Martin Illinois, Clark, Louisville, Moss, Iowa,
McKay Black Blackman, USC there's your top according to your rankings.
I would love I would love Kwon Martin there the
Illinois slot corner slash safety. I think he's a versatile

(17:56):
body type that can do either, has played both, has
played outside corner and safety at Illinois. Very explosive. That's
a guy I would love for Brandon Staley in that defense.
Just adding some more versatile players to a defense that
you know needs like covets for silly like Derwin James.
When you have a guy like that, like you want

(18:16):
other guys who can backfill for Derwin James to play
a bunch of different roles, and so I think Kwan
Martin would be a great hit for them at that point.
Just quickly want to point out on the pod we
are proponents of doing nothing but adding offense on defense.
All we do is undrafted free agents. Good luck Brandon Staley.
Patrick Holmes cannot be stopped. He can only perhaps be outscored.

(18:38):
We're not interested in trying to stop him. It's we've
seen too many of these games where Justin Herbert scores
a touchdown with three minutes left and they lose the game.
So all we want to do is have offensive weapons.
That is well, I'm sorry, coach, coach day buddy, that's
that is all we want to do. That's why we
have Mike bring us back down to earth a little bit,
just get a different perspective. Hey, let's just say they

(18:59):
don't draft offense in the first round at twenty one,
knowing what the Chargers defense did. They came up strong
last year. But there's some older guys I think the
edge position, Mike, when you talk about Joey Bose and
his injury history and obviously Khalil Mack getting a year older,
not a lot of depth behind those guys at the
edge position at around twenty one. Who could you envision

(19:22):
maybe being there that the Chargers would be Like, Okay,
I think someone like Will McDonald from Iowa State would
be someone that would be intriguing in that he can
obviously still play a role with those two guys on
the football field. He's rushed a lot from the interior
over his career at Iowa State, but I do think
he comes kind of with a project label because he
needs to get stronger. He's two hundred and forty pounds

(19:44):
six foot five, like he needs to add some muscle
to his frame to continue to adjust the NFL game.
But he's a freak athlete, high end athlete that if
he can just learn from two other you know, elite
edge rushers, rub off on him a little bit, I
think you could have an impact player down the road.
So that might be a guy who could be in
the mix there. If you are looking edge, how good

(20:05):
is them? I didn't want to butcher his name. How
good is Cancy from Pittsburgh? Is he like? Obviously the
Aaron Donald comparisons are there because he's a pit guy
because of his size. But what are we talking about
because we know Aaron Donald slid. I was going to
bring him up before you brought up edge that. I
think he would be a great fit. Obviously, brand Salley
works and wondrous with a guy like Aaron Donald's defense,

(20:28):
but I just think great compliment on third downs too.
If you have Joey bos and you have Khalil Mack,
Kalijah Cancy on the interior would be a scary add
to that because he is the best athlete I've seen
that defensive tackle. I mean, he tested out better than
Aaron Donald. He ran a faster fur than Aaron Donald,
had a faster three cone than Aaron Donald. This guy
is as nimble as you'll see for two hundred and

(20:51):
eighty two pounds, but he still is two hundred and
eighty two pounds you're not expecting plus run defense. He
is probably not going to be an every down play
or year one for you, but he knows how to
rush the pastor and even at you know, even at
his size, I trust him to be able to get
after quarterbacks because man, the athlete is just so so

(21:13):
rare and so impressive that he may not even last
to where the Chargers you're drafted. Important to point out,
by the way, Aaron Donald not a good run defender.
So like for people that are like, oh, you can't
do it. The Chargers run defense is too terrible. Hey,
Aaron Donald wreck shop And if you look at his
numbers against the run, they're not great. He's more of
a He's a unique run defender in that you have

(21:35):
to like get him one on one and he has
to have the ability to make plays like when left
or right. He's just not going to sit on a block.
You know, the traditional how you want your front four
to all play and run defense as a unison as
one unit. You're gonna have to bend the rules a
little bit for a guy like Aaron Donald and for
a guy like clash Cancy Mike. It's no secret the

(21:56):
Chargers needs speed at wide receiver. We saw it and
how it hurt the team towards the back half of
the year, especially with Jalen Giton out. Now they're gonna
need a punt returner. DeAndre Carter goes to the Raiders.
Are there guys maybe in mid to late rounds that
have the speed slash punt return capability that could maybe

(22:17):
fulfill both roles, get you some speed on offense and
also provide some special teams choose. One of the more
intriguing returners to me in this draft class is Keaton
Mitchell's running back though from ECU. I love his open
field vision he has. I think he had thirty one
runs of fifteen plus yards this year, which was like
five more than anyone else in the country. Like, he

(22:39):
knows how to go find space in the open field
and then or three seven speed. So he's one of
if you're looking for a returner, a guy I would
point to and probably rounds five, you know, or later.
I'm trying to think of wide receivers in this class,
though with like real deal return nobility. Maybe I think
Trey Tucker from Cincinnati is an intriguing guy as a returner.

(23:01):
Him and de Mario Douglass from Liberty or two guys
that I don't think you're really putting in the starting lineup.
They're both like five eight, but like one eight. You know,
they're not really They're like a role a gadget type
of role player on offense. But I think both can
add some value in the return game. I'd love to
know Mike, because I mean, talk about just a true
savior of the season. Jamari sawlier Rashaun Slater goes down

(23:24):
with three. You're already kind of, you know, dealing with
injuries all over the place on this team. Jamari saw
your steps in and you know, was he elite? No?
But he provided stability sort of? What what led to
him falling all the way to the sixth round one
a national championship? Played inside, played outside? Just kind of
how how did that happen? How did the Chargers end

(23:46):
up with a starting left tackle in the sixth Your
guests is as good as my I think it was
injury related. I have heard that it was, but at
like if it wasn't an injury that kept him out
of his rookie I could not fathom why he fell
that far in the draft because this wasn't you know,
this wasn't like an under scouted guy who wasn't on radars.

(24:08):
You know, he's a multi year starter at Georgia left tackle,
win a national championship. It didn't make sense then, still
doesn't make sense. Now he's a damn good player, like
he was top he was in the top sixty on
the PFF draft board, like his second round grade last year.
It falls all the way to sixth. So obviously the
Chargers the beneficiary. That's a long term starter. I think
you've got both your starting guards in one draft, truthfully,

(24:29):
which hats off time to LESCo. Yeah, hey, Mike, last
one for me and this goes to the other guy,
Zion Johnson, who was selected by the Charges of seventeen overall.
And I think, like you said, they found one of
their future starters at guard for the next decade plus.
What did you see coming out and what did you

(24:50):
see in his first year and did it match up
to the evaluation? Yeah, I thought he was going to
be a little bit better, but I think you saw
him come on, maybe after a little early season struggles,
but he was a guy who just consistent snap after snap,
and and just from like a tools traits perspective, is

(25:11):
how you would build a guard like his. From his frame,
his lower half, his massive, huge hands, long arms, just
you saw a guy that you felt felt like you
just knew it was gonna be a darn good guard
in the NFL. About one of the safest picks that
you can make in the NFL draft. And so I
think that's why, you know, maybe with other needs on
the roster, just like this guy's gonna be good, we're

(25:31):
just gonna take him. Maybe it's a little rich in
the top twenty four guard, but we're just gonna take him.
And so that's how I felt about him. And I
think you're probably going to see that more in year two,
year three, just because NFL transition is tough for everybody.
But I think with the full NFL off season, he's
gonna be a darn good one. So I guess maybe
my last one. I may have one more, Mike, then

(25:52):
we'll let you go. Thanks so much for the time.
Just the their third rounder j T. Woods. You know,
so much excitement led the ncuble an interest options, a
lot of ball production. Couldn't get on the field for
the Chargers all season, But you're scouting report on him
what you saw, why maybe it played out that way
as opposed to him on seating, Nozadlie for that starting
high safety spot. Safety is a position that you know

(26:14):
you need repsent you're it's a very visually driven position.
You need to see the NFL game first. You know,
there's a rare to see guys like Derwin James who
year one at safety are impact players. So it's it's
difficult from that perspective the transition, and especially for him
because he's a pure free safety. He's not you know,
a slot. He was in a box guy. He was

(26:36):
a range over the top from either single high, too high,
whatever you want. He is going to be that guy
that can make quarterbacks pay for trying to bite off
a little more. They could chew on some go ball,
some vertical routes on the outside. So that is his role.
That's also kind of what what Nazi Adelie brought the
table like. He was a very similar player. So this
was your transition plan obvious. Now with Adlie retiring, it's

(26:59):
him and I think you're going to see him excel
in that same role as that pure deep guy. All right,
let's do one more here. Let's see what's on the
board mock draft simulator and her draft and we're going
to start it. And on the board right now, Old
Cancy's on the board. Kin Kaid is on the board
as well. So you got both of those guys. Mayor

(27:22):
Addison's a flowers. This is just just kind of given
him one out. It's it's played out, you know, it's
played out differently. Um So Cancy made it to him,
but so did Dalton Kinkaid. So that's your there you go,
what are you doing? That one's tough? Oh man, that
one is tough because they're both unique in their own right.
They're both guys that are you know, not every year

(27:46):
kind of prospects that I would say is that you
and usually those guys tend to go high because if
you if rarity is a skill set that again, if
you want that, if you want pure speed at the
three technique position, you will not find someone with as
much as quash cancer. So in those that scenario, man,
I think I still mean, given Herbert as many weapons

(28:07):
as possible, it's an arms race in the NFL. No
one really get. You have to compete in the AFC
with Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow. You have to
put up over thirty points a game and probably three
straight playoff games to win Super Bowl. That's just a
fact of life, um in that conference nowadays. And so

(28:29):
how am I going to do that? Well, I'm going
to fool proof justin Herbert in this offense and then
let brand Staley handle his side of the ball at
least with my top draft picks, because that's what he
gets paid for, and Herbert gets paid for. You made, Hey,
you made an officially now this is an officially a
Dalton Kincaid podcast. This is it. I mean every week
this guy's name comes up money, that's right. Appreciate you, Mike,

(28:55):
before you go, we got draft hits watching this into this.
Where can they get your stuff and what's the best
way to consume it? Yeah, you can go obviously find
the PF Draft Guide ONPF dot com. All my takes
are in there. The final version releases next Monday. I
believe I'm still working on it. I'm going to get
to work on it right after this, and then you

(29:16):
follow me on Twitter at pfunderscore My so a lot
of good stuff coming out in the next month. You're
the best, dude. We always appreciate this time of month
for sure, all right, guys. Is the official hospitality provider
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(29:40):
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(30:26):
All right, when you got the simulator up, always good
talking to Mike. Were you happy with the results? Kincaid, Yeah,
thanks super like. I can't recommend it enough. Just hit
upf dot com, click on mock draft simulator, you click
on the Chargers. Throw that thing on turbo and it'll
put you through the different scenarios and if you look,
you'll be able to see how the draft lays out. Oh,

(30:48):
how many quarterbacks went ahead of them? Sometimes it is five,
sometimes it's four, sometimes it's three and Levis falls out.
So it gives you the idea and it reminds you
that anything can happen. That Derwin James can slip to
the Chargers at seventeen because the Saints decided to trade
up and you thought they were going to and the
Bills end up taking Edmonds instead of Durwin when you

(31:09):
thought they were going to take Derwin. Like, there's so
many weird things that happened through the course of a draft,
but I was happy to hear Mike echo our sentiments
from a couple of weeks ago, and that is how
many first round grades do you have? Justin Herbert's getting
a fifty million dollar contract, fifty million dollar year contract.
There's somewhere that's. Sorry to spend all your money, mister Spannels,

(31:30):
but it's going to be somewhere in that range. It's
just you gotta add young talent. You've got to just
increase your depth by a pretty chunky percentage because of
that contract now being a reality moving forward. And I
do think there's a chance Bucky's latest draft has Levis sliding.

(31:51):
That Hooker has now kind of taken that spot and
Levis has gone on a slide. So the hope is
that one of those quarterbacks is there at twenty one
and in order to jump ahead of the Vikings as
we talked about. Yeah, and that's sort of and I
know it's it's so there's I'm not going to name names,
but there's a head coach that had an incredible amount

(32:11):
of power in a franchise and would routinely select their
first rounder and then just disappear because he didn't have
the patience to do the work that you need to do.
But he was invested enough to say this is the
guy I want with our first round pick. Pretty Much
all those first round picks were busts, and neither person

(32:32):
is with the franchise any longer. I think I know,
I think I know who you're referring to. I bring
up that point because so many fans are like that.
They only know the first round. They only know Kincaid
or Jordan Addison or Zay Flowers or Nolan Smith or
Elijah Kanzi or Wilson or you know, Breece or Van Ness,

(32:53):
and when the chargers trade out, they're like, we really,
we're not going to get an impact. There are starters
in the second round. That's where you get your starters,
second and third round. So to pick up an extra two,
potentially pick up a one next year, maybe pick up
a two and a three two and when you're obviously
gonna get at least two in of three for trading
out of the first round, but it could be more

(33:13):
than that. Those are starters. You expect those to be starters.
So Sante Samuel Drew Tranquil nazatterly like, that's you know,
Jamari Sawyer's an outlier. Yeah, but you know what we're
getting at here. It's Keenan Allen, you know, third rounder, Like,
that's what we're talking about. Trey Pipkins these so I

(33:35):
was happy to hear him concur with us that that's,
you know, ideal, this is ideal. You're able to trade
back and get really good value for number twenty one. Yeah,
and just look at free agency. They're gonna need starters
coming out of this draft, and they're gonna need to
maybe pick up some picks in that second or third
round in order to get those guys. And you know,

(33:55):
if you stay there and you get King Kaid, that's great.
I also I really like his thought out, uh philosophy
on the running back position, and I'm with him in
terms of, hey, don't don't let h anybody else but
number ten touch the ball. I get that, But I
just you know, that Jacksonville game sticks in my mind.
Second half not be able to run the football, and

(34:16):
I know Robinson could do it, you know. Um, So
that's that's kind of where I get a little bit
conflicted about. You know, you want to make this a
complete football team that can win games in January, and
I think having a guy like a Bijean Robinson or
or a player of his caliber to compliment Austin hopefully

(34:36):
Austin's still here, um would be a good thing. It
might be a better defense than the defense, no doubt.
It's kind of the best way to look at it.
Put it. If we can pick up a couple first
downs and sustain a drive for four or five minutes
like they did in the Miami game, that's that may
be better than the defense they have. So that's where

(34:57):
the whole bijon part comes in. We're not saying he's
got to you've got to build your offense around bi
Sean Robinson. What we're saying is, when you need to
press that button, let's go press that button. Yeah. And
and the other thing is too, it's it's not it's
not a centerpiece. Look at it as a complimentary piece.
Now you start with design runs that are ripping off
five and seven and nine yards, and guess what happens

(35:19):
to the play action game, And guess what happens to
your shot place. They're finally going to be open because
they weren't open last year because nobody thought they were
running for more than three yards to carry if even that,
and typically if they did, it was Austin Ackler breaking
a tackle in the backfield in order to get those
three yards. Yeah, and there may be a game where
you need your running game to carry you. You know,

(35:40):
it's those games happen in the NFL where you've got
a game plan a different way for a different opponent. So,
but Mike's awesome. Appreciate his time as always. I want
to spend a few minutes on just these owners meetings
and your takeaways from that. Obviously, I think the non
breaking breaking news is that the Chargers and Justin Herbert
there was report that they're they're talking, and I think

(36:01):
we expected that, right What else is doing That deal
is getting done this offseason? When it's getting done, don't know,
but it's getting done. There's you know, is it before Burrow?
Is it before Lamar's trade? Is it after? Is it
Jalen Hurts that gets the deal done first? Whatever it is,

(36:22):
it's going to be a gigantic number and it's going
to get done and it's going to have to change
the way the roster is constructed. So it's not surprising,
I would hope, you know, if that's not news, news
is we tried to reach out to Justin but as
people aren't talking to us, that's news and you gotta concern.
So great great to hear that they are talking. There

(36:47):
was a nugget I think Eric Smith tweeted out that, uh,
the Zion's gonna move the left guard and it's Sawyer
who's going to go to right. So that was Tom's
pressor from Thomas press pressor. He mentioned it could have
been Brandon as well. I thought it was from Tom's though.
I think that he mentioned remember when Zion came out,
he was a left guard, and that's why there was

(37:07):
some speculation that Filer was going to get kicked to
right tackle, that you were going to put Zion at
left guard and then they were going to try to
figure out the right guard position before it became this
Pipkins battle with Storm Norton kind of thing. So I thought,
you know, Zion played well last year, certainly, but if
they feel like like I'm on the left better and

(37:30):
I think part of that is recreating that dominant side
of the line that you can run behind, just a
road grading because of what a great run blocker Rashaan
Slater is. Let's just create sheered dominance on that side
of the ball where if we need it, we can

(37:50):
go get it now. I thought Trey and Zion worked
well together. That was the better side to run to
last year than Sawyer. So that's that's I guess is
let's just even though Trey improved and did pretty darn
well as a run blocker, I think that Sawyer is
going to excel as a guard because we saw when

(38:10):
he did get beat it was on speed. Because once
he gets his hands on you, he tends to dominate.
So he should excel as a guard. But put Zion
back at his natural position where he played his entire
college career, took every single snap, and let's create a
wall specifically in the run game and on Herbert's blindside.
I love outside of the line Slater, Zion Lindsley, I

(38:34):
love it. I love it. And you know you have
saw You're on the right side. He has that positional
flexibility to kick out the right if anything should happen.
So I think the offensive line from a starter perspective,
is in good shape. I mentioned this when we talked
to Mike DeAndre Carter leaving I think is a blow.

(38:54):
You know, this guy was second in the NFL in
punt return average, and we know what special teams means
to this team now with Ryan Ficken, and they have
improved so much. Obviously, I know that they're going to
find a replacement. They probably have a replacement in mind,
money that you and I don't know about. But I

(39:15):
just you know, you don't want to take a step back,
especially at a guy that really helped you kind of
flip the field and now he goes to a arrival.
I believe it was Tom tolesco set it to us
on or it was either Coach Staley or it was
Tom that set it to us. One pregame when we
brought up how well DeAndre had been playing, specifically in
his punt return role, and he said, he gets us
a first down. It's the best way to look at it.

(39:36):
Every single time he catches upon and returns it, he
gets us a first down. His return average was twelve yards.
So that's a huge deal. You've already got your first
first down as your drive starter because he's picked it
up for you. It just goes to show you how
because of all the money that's moved around, the lack
of action and free agency, it goes to show you

(39:56):
how much the quarterback contracts impact X a team that
you can't bring DeAndre Carter back at a million and
a half dollar raise, from what he was making last year.
I'll say this into you know, for those that are
upset that DeAndre Carter is gone, He's been on a
new team almost every year. So as good as he is,

(40:19):
if you're dominant, if you're Devin Hester, if you're Tamarick Vanover,
if you're you know, if you're one of those guys,
you're not going to leave. So they feel like we
can replace that, well, we'll be able to find someone.
Like you said that, we can replace that. More often
than not, your returners come from the draft. They're secondary players,
they're special teamers. You don't want to have starters in

(40:40):
the return game because of the propensity for them to
get injured. We saw that last year in the playoff
game with DeAndre Carter getting injured and now you got
Michael Bandy out there for fifty snaps. Yeah, and that
was a plan was the plan was not to have DeAndre.
He was a fifth receiver coming into camp anyway, so
like the plan wasn't really to use him one offense.
He had to catch forty six balls, had his best

(41:00):
offensive season because of all the injuries. I thought he
had a season worthy of sticking around for that second year.
But you're right, that's this is the business. And when
you have to pay your quarterback a ton of money
and you have to allocate resources to other positions. This
is why it's so hard to build a complete team
in the NFL these days, especially when you have that
paycheck come into your quarterback, and returners aren't as impactful

(41:24):
as they used to be. More, more and more teams
want that ball kicked out of the back of the
end zone on kick returns. They're comfortable with it return
more than kick return and punt returns. You've got so
many more punters that are better than we've ever seen.
It's almost all fair catches. You've got your big leg
guys that just want to kick the hell out of

(41:44):
the ball and they'll they'll hope their gross is somewhere
around fifty plus. You know, in that high forty fifty range,
the return is somewhere around seven to eight, and you
still end up with your forty to forty three nets.
As he leads, there are a handful of those, and
you hope you can spring him. I'm content with allocating

(42:06):
resources elsewhere. I'm totally fine with that. Finding something now
we saw it, We've seen it cost the Chargers games.
We have seen bad returners cost the chart literally cost
the Chargers games. Because I'm thinking of the game in
New England and I again keep forgetting his name. But
when balls inside the five returner fields it, all he

(42:28):
has to do is move his right foot outside and
step on the sideline and it gets on a kickoff
and it ends up at the forty instead he catches
it there. It gets absolutely blown up. It like the
eight and everything which to New England game. It was
a long time. It was when Rivers was still the quarterback.
It was Benjamin. Is it Travis Benjamin. We had the
Travis Benjamin punt return when he went backwards. Yeah, with

(42:50):
another one. So like there's a lot of those instances
where we've talked, you know, two years ago, Oakland or Oakland,
Las Vegas final week, you know fumble on. So yes,
it does matter. You do need someone back there, but
you can find him. Yeah, anything else from Arizona that

(43:12):
stood out league wide or charges related? Obviously there's a
lot going on with the Commanders and well I think
the Eckler stuff is furthered a little bit. Yeah, both
sides are saying the same thing, which is Tom said,
we respect the heck out of Austin. We owed it
to him to be able to go out there and
see if he could find anything to better his individual situation,

(43:32):
and we would accommodate that. You've got Austin we talked
about already, the things he said that he's going to
pursue aggressively a deal that he feels compensates him more
fairly not going to find it. Mike Renner said it.
I am completely against giving free agent, big money free
agent deals to running backs. So it looks like those
two are are headed to stick together. Eckler appears to

(43:56):
be on the Chargers this upcoming season that they'll figure
something out and that they'll work it out. So outside
of that, it feels like those were the big Those
were the big questions. What's going on with Eckler moving
Scion to the left side and the fact that they're
talking to Herbert and that's why all these moves look

(44:16):
the way they look, And the Chargers are getting the
free agent grades that they're getting for not doing a
whole lot. Yeah, which makes what you said last week
even more enticing to trade out of twenty one and
get more picks. And find more starters. You're gonna have
to do it, and they've got to both sides of
the lines. Look at Philadelphia, they load up on old linemen,

(44:39):
they load up on the lineman, and that's how they win.
And that's how they made it into the postseason two
years ago with Jalen Hurts who wasn't playing great at quarterback,
three years ago or four years ago, whatever it was,
when they had no wide receivers and a banged up quarterback,
they still made it because they were so dominant on
the lines. To me, the Chargers really need to invest

(45:02):
resources at those two position groups. Continue to build the
offensive line. If you swing and miss, you swing and miss.
If it's Dan Feenie, Hopefully brain himis comes around this year.
Trey Pickins took three years, but they got it. Yeah,
So you just have to keep investing Forrest Lamp, keep investing,

(45:23):
keep investing in that position group, keep investing in defensive lineman.
Hopefully Tito Obonia comes back sooner than later, because he
looked great when he started getting more and more reps
and got into the rotation. So to me, those are
that's the that to me is the biggest push for
trading out is let's we gotta start building depth along

(45:46):
those along the lines if you're going to be able
to compete, because guys get hurt at those two position
groups pretty regularly, and you better have capable depth so
you don't lose your season and money. It's I think
it's a type of player that you're targeting in those
mid to late rounds. Like you mentioned it to Rent
or about Jamari Sawyer. I mean that guy was seasoned

(46:06):
in the SEC, whereas you know Trey Pipkins. When they
drafted Trey Pipkins, they knew he wasn't gonna be ready
for a few years. Like it's it's war, so, okay,
can we draft guys that we think can make an
impact and actually start some games earlier in their career,
Whereas you know Trey Pipkins and some other guys were, Okay,
this guy's a project, may not be ready for a

(46:26):
couple of years. I think the position that the Chargers
are in, depending on how many picks they can get
in the second, third and later rounds, is maybe trying
to identify some of those guys that can play meaningful
snaps for you this year, right as opposed to saying, Okay,
well this guy will be ready in two or three years.
I'm not sure that the Chargers want to invest in
a ton of those types of players. Well, you're talking,

(46:50):
you're you basically just described the great draft conundrum, traits
versus production. What are we going to value? Are we
gonna value traits? Are we gonna value production? Here's someone,
Jamari Sawyer, does not have the traits. He's got short arms,
he's not that tall, he's not built like a tackle,
he's not super athletic. But okay, production played at Georgia

(47:12):
started inside outside flexibility, kicked inside when Alabama was dominating
on the interior, kicked outside whenever anybody was dominating at
the edge. Was productive, but there were very little traits.
So that's that's what happens when you get into the draft.
That's Look, that's why Justin Herbert fell to the Chargers
at six. Had every trait you could possibly want, size, athleticism,

(47:36):
the brain, freaking hose. But he was in an offense
that was not productive. Played in a Rose Bowl where
he basically ran his tail off as opposed to throw
the ball all over the place in order to get
a win. So that's how you end up getting a
guy like that at number six? And and what did
two a half two had? The production, didn't have the traits,

(47:58):
was injured, busted up hip, not as athletic, not tall, not,
doesn't have the biggest arm, but he had the production.
So that's that's the draft in a nutshell, what do
you want? Do you want the traits? You want the production?
When you pair the two together, that's when you get
a first rounder. That's when you get Dalton Kincade. That's

(48:18):
when you get Jalen Carter. That's when you get Will Anderson.
That's traits plus production. That's what we're talking about. By
the way, this is the time of year or two
where people will resurface old tweets about prospects, and the
amount of stuff that we saw Justin Herbert before the
Chargers drafted him was insane, just like, this guy's got
no chance. And I wouldn't. I would never watch Justin

(48:40):
Herbert on my team. And this is what this is
all about, man, Because I was skeptical of him. I
watched a ton of Pack twelve football. I watched a
lot of Justin Herbert, and I was like, man, this guy,
you know there wasn't the production you were projecting what
justin you had. And God loved Tom Tolesco and his
team and Joejoe and every everybody for doing that. Yeah,

(49:01):
because when when he was at Oregon, it just wasn't there.
The offense was super, super conservative, and he was you
could tell that he was coached to not turn the
ball over and he aimed a lot of his throws
and he played very conservatively. So I think, look, this

(49:22):
is the time of year and and it's fine. I'm
the one that ran my mouth. You know. My my
video comes up all the time on Check's podcast about
Patrick Mahomes asking why if you're the Chiefs and you
just won the division, are you drafting a guy that's
got no footwork? That's that's everything is off platform, everything
is when the play is broken down, Well, you pair
him with Andy Reid and you let him sit for

(49:44):
a year. And yeah, they have they had that vision
that I did not. I was talking about it. And
that's the that when you have someone like Joel Klatt
that made the type of declarative statement he did on Herbert. Yeah,
that's because he watched so much college football. That's the
funny thing. Is the people that have those takes and

(50:05):
those positions are the ones that watch a hundred times
more snaps than the people that are criticizing them for
their opinion. They just watch too much. They watched too
much football, developed an opinion based on what they saw
and what their brain was telling them they saw, as
opposed to having the vision of okay, six six two

(50:26):
forty valid heisman, you know, academic heisman, you know, giant arm. Yeah,
I can see where this Herbert thing could go. Instead.
It's while I watched all of his games at Oregon
and he's very soft spoken, and you know, all of
those things. You have too much information. It's hard, it is,
It is very hard. The one thing I will tell
you I learned about, you know, running my mouth on

(50:47):
Mahomes is don't do it. Just just couch things a
little bit better, you know, just say wow. You know what.
Kudos to the chiefs. They certainly see things that you
didn't see on the tape, and they feel like that
raw talent they're going to be able to, you know,
to to rein that in and make him as effective
inside the pocket as he is outside. Because look, the

(51:09):
Mahome sizzle real was incredible from Texas Tech. It was ridiculous.
But that's what the whole that's that's his entire college career.
You know, he finished colleague and it's like, name the
Texas Tech quarterback that ever had an impact in the league.
There wasn't one though, it never happened that often. Hail. Yeah.
It was like, you can't draft someone from that. And
that's why it's so stupid to say something like, well

(51:30):
you can't take CJ. Stroud from Ohio State. Name in
Ohio state quarterback that's you know, been effective in the
the NFL. Well yeah, look at Texas Tech. It was
people would just swear that thing off, like no way,
no way, that's a gimmick offense and want nothing. That's
the Quintin m Quentin Johnson thing is you watch that

(51:51):
TCU tape. The guy's wide open all the time. He
is wide stinking open. When you pull up his touchdowns.
If you go to the PFF and you plup is
touchdown real, there's not a corner around him. There's nobody
around him. So it's like, Okay, well, I don't know
how do I interpret this? What am I doing? What? What?
What am I? What? Am I going to do with them. Yeah,

(52:12):
as as people watch our podcast and all these draft
uh pods and articles, everyone knows that nobody knows anything
right and and anybody can there's a lot of people
that know a lot more than we do, that's for sure.
Well that's try, that's what and and money. Even those
guys will have terrible takes that will be brought up
down the line. And you know, everybody misses in the draft.

(52:35):
That's why it's so hard. That's why the drafts. You're like, wow,
it's so different. The NFL is a completely different sport
than college football. That that's that's the thing. Now, Look,
I think that you're never going to post them hitting
it on the head. That just doesn't happen. It's freezing
cold takes. There's no you know, flame and hot takes

(52:56):
that people want to retweet a million times. When you
hear somebody get it right, they enjoy. So they want
to celebrate your failures. That's why Petrol's you know and
I do the show that we do because people want
to hear about what idiots we are and how much
we fail at life. And it makes them feel good
and that's great, and that's that's the draft, you're going
to miss more than you hit, especially when you're in

(53:18):
the fourth round and you're taking the one hundred and
fifty third player off the board, you know, and there's
been one hundred and fifty guys that have gone ahead
of them. Yeah, you're probably gonna have a tough time
hitting a home run on that one. Yeah, it's playing
quarterback in the NFL is considerably different than playing quarterback
in college. So it's it's not a general managers make

(53:41):
a lot of money. Make a lot of money for
a reason, because it is not an easy gig. Speaking
of home runs, are you go into Opening Night tonight?
He'd be out there. I will be, I will be.
I hate the sound of it. Should be Opening day.
I should not be here doing this right now. I
should be. It's like the first time, it like with
fifteen years that they've done this at night. Why, it's
a huge It's a huge season for Major League Baseball,

(54:04):
and I think they want that premier team in that
primetime West Coast primetime window. Having the Dodgers play at
noon as opposed to seven deprives the league from its
West Coast crown jewel, and that's what it's all TV.

(54:24):
So when you had this is this is going to
go down as a seminal year in baseball. If things
have changed, are going to change moving forward. They're going
to talk about this year as the year that the
game changed. Pitch clock is changing. You know, we're going
to have games because we're the Dodger station where I
do the radio show. We had minor league games. We

(54:46):
had a Clayton Kershaw minor league game that went two
hours that and it wasn't it wasn't a weird game.
That was just Kershaw dominated. And you look up and
you're like, holy crap, we're in the ninth inning and
this game has been on for an hour and fifty
eight minutes. It was crazy. So that's going to change.
You're gonna have more offense, You're gonna have a return
to the athlete, and more stolen bases. So to me,

(55:09):
today's a huge day for Major League Baseball. They they
really want to roll out and say we got something,
we got some sizzle here, we got something going. You're
gonna really like what we've done with this sport this
year after years of being a punching bag and three
and a half and four hour games where there's guys
standing around picking their tails, taking four minutes to get

(55:32):
through one at bat. So I think they're excited and
they wanted the Dodgers. That's a very long way of
answering your question. That's that's why we got Opening Night
because they want that prime time West Coast. Hey, look
what we're doing and watch. Watch what a Dodgers game
looks like. Now, you're not going to bed at ten
forty five at the end of the ninth inning. You're
going to bed. You're you're done at nine thirty, and

(55:54):
we're rolling out of here. I love this time of
year because we got the draft in the air. You
got Opening Day Baseball twenty eight days away from the
twenty twenty three NFL Draft, And each week we'll get
a guest on we'll answer your questions. It'll be very
draft heavy in April. Money. This was great. Appreciate Mike

(56:15):
Renner joining us for money. I'm Chris. This has been
Chargers Weekly. We'll see you next week, all right, guys.
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