February 4, 2025 • 26 mins
George M. Johnson is joined by the journalist and producer Keith Boykin to talk about quitting the White House to write a memoir about being Black and gay, and the ways in which history is repeating itself right before our eyes. This episode's Queer Artist Spotlight is on "All Boys Aren't Blue" by Julian King.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
The challenging part for me was I had to quit
my job.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
So I left my job working at the White House
and started working on this book, which was not the.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Very welcome idea.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
People don't usually leave a good, steady government job working
in the White House to go write a book about
being black and guy.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
That's my good friend Keith Boykin.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
He's a journalist and author, a film producer, and back
in the early nineties he was working for President Bill Clinton.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I was working in the White House as a special
assistant to the President, in the highest ranking openly gay
person in the Clinton White House, and that was a
dramatic change for me from having just come out to
being this high profile figure.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Even back then, Keith could see that certain prejudices were cyclical.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It felt a bit like deja vu.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
One of the biggest issues that people were talking about
in the early nineties was about whether LGBTQ people or
at that point it was just gaze where the gaze
should be allowed in the military, which is a really
stupid question because gay people were always in the military.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Anybody who knew anything about the military knew that was true, right.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
But what occurred to me is as I was listening
to a lot of the arguments about this is that
almost exactly the same things that people were saying about
why day and lesbian people should not be allowed in
the military. There were similar arguments to what people were
saying about why black people should not be allowed to
be integrated into the unforces back in the nineteen forties,
and it occurred to me, somebody should put all this
(01:26):
stuff together and write a book about it. So that
was sort of the beginning of the process.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Singing in the heavy handy, some of the world take
a sip of brandy, I spoke the guy.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
You know what the plan is?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
O became a Latin. You know one doesn't the stand me.
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is also the
second most banned book in the United States. This is
Fighting Words, where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and refuse to be silenced.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Today's guest Keith Boykin.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
When you bring on a first guest, you want to
bring on someone who you're cool with, You're comfortable with,
where you know the conversation is going to be free flowing, informational, educational,
and funny. And I couldn't think of anyone else but
my good friend mister Keith Boykin. Keith, how are you
doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I don't know if I'm going to live up to
the funny expectations.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I think you're pretty funny. We've had some very funny moments.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Keith. You have been just about everything.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
You have been a New York Time bestselling author, you
have worked at the White House.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
You you know you are a Harvard Law graduate.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Can you share just like a little bit of your
experience of what it was like being like a black
queer person at Harvard Law.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well that's where Harvard was a place where I first
came to terms with my sexual orientation. It was in
April nineteen ninety one when I started to feel an
attraction to another one of my classmates. I'd never had
any sort of sexual encounter with a man before this time.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And so you would get in a degree in two things, Ah, I.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Was getting I was getting a degree in three or
four things, to be honest, because I really wasn't even
in law school. For law school, I was. I was
an activist when I was in law school. I never
wanted to be a lawyer, so I was very clear
about that from the beginning. But yeah, but so I
had this experience and I realized that I'm gay, and
it was a weird time for me to experience that
(03:47):
because I didn't know any other black, queer people at
all on campus at that point. And so the first
thing I did after I told my mom is I
told a few other people on campus. In fact, one
of the first people I told was my law professor,
and it was such an interesting, funny experience. I remember
(04:08):
he kind of closed the door in his office and
leaned over on the desk and he kind of just
above a whisper, said to me, he said, so I
heard that you're gay.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Now.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
I was like, oh my god, really, like how did
you know? And he told me that one of the
other law professors had told him about it. And it
was such a weird thing that I was like, Oh
my god, law professors at Harvard are actually speculating about
my sex orientation.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I'm talking about it like behind my back.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
Like what a bizarre thing of all things to this
to be happening.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It was just such a weird experience for that it
happened the way it did.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
But for the most part, it was a really positive experience.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I was there at Harvard at the same time when
Barack Obama was in law school.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
He was a class ahead of Like, well, y'all actually
on campus together any point, or did y'all we were?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
He was a class of ninety one. I was a
class of ninety two.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
When my first book came out in nineteen ninety well,
I finished writing in nineteen eighty five. His first book
came out nineteenenty five. His first book was called Dreams
to My Father, and my first book was called One
More River Across Black and Gay in America. And so
Professor Charles Ogletree at Harvard invited both of us to
campus to this thing called Saturday School where we had
to talk about our books. And I remember he signed
(05:25):
a copy of his book to me, and I talked
about my book and everything. And at that point I
was working in the White House, and he told me
he was running for a state Senate and I was, oh, cool,
good for you. You know, Little did I know he
was going to be working in the White House one
day too. And a much higher capacity than I ever
dreamed of. That was kind of the culture of the
(05:48):
people who were there.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It felt like it was a very liberating free place.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
It felt like it was a safe space to be
who I was, and it didn't ocode to me until
after I left the Cocoon if you will, of Harvard
that oh, this is not the way the rest of
the world is. So that's when I kind of kind
of faced the harsh reality of what it meant to
be out in that world.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Even when I was writing All Boys Aren't Blue and
it was like just bringing up like the memories of
the safe space. It was like my family was such
a safe space that I didn't realize like having a
transgender cousin was an issue until like someone else outside
of my family told me, like, that's not everybody don't
have have trans people in they fan.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I was like, wait, what, Like.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
That's just hope, like what you mean like and seeing
how people's reaction to it was was like, Oh, this
is the world I'm going to have to live in.
(07:06):
So every week on the show, I like to highlight
a different queer contemporary artist. I think it's important to
use our platforms to amplify other people's platforms. This week's
song is All Boys Aren't Blue by Julian King. I
was honored when I first heard this song, which is
inspired by my book All Boys Are Blue, and which
shows us that art doesn't only have to be in
(07:26):
one form. Here's a short clip, and stay tuned at
the end of the episode for the full track.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You have to wake up in the morning.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
I'm never gonna be worshed too many times. I'll give
a popsy shine too many times. I'll give you sa
sashion and now I'm recredited because I'm wasting the time
and I'm not on you all. I've gotta beat your
twoful white gotta be faithful on our stead. I can
(07:57):
beat you.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Now back to my conversation with journalist Keith Boykin. Now,
you know you're talking about the nineties, around the height
of the HIV epidemic, or right after I would say
treatments first started to be introduced. Could you also kind
of tell us like what that experience was like. As one,
You're this public figure now working at the White House,
(08:19):
black gay man. You had the intersection of the HIV
epidemic and you also have this whole introduction which would
be coming some years later around like download culture in
the black community.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, it reminds me when I first had the conversation
with my mom back in nineteen ninety one, called her
from the phone, Texas and we had a very long,
difficult conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
But the first two things she teld me were at first,
she told.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Me that she loved me, which was the most important
thing I needed to hear from my mom. But second
thing she told me was to be careful. And I
knew what she meant by that, and it became clear
over time what she meant even more. But she meant
that she knew that it was going to be easy.
She knew that hivy age was a huge issue for
(09:08):
people in the LGBTQA community, but particularly for black a men.
And she knew that there's also a threat of violence
because my mom's brother, who was my uncle, was murdered
back in nineteen eighty in part, I believe because he
was good, and I think I saw so much of
the death and destruction that wiped out people in our
community because I came out in this early nineties environment,
(09:31):
when that generation of people who were writers.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
From the late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties. The
Essex Hemphills and the Craig Harris and the Marlon riggs
Is of the world and the Joe Beams. Those people
were all dying. Yeah, and that's the whole generation of
black queer leaders and literary figures who just disappeared and
were never able to transfer their knowledge to the next generation.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I am a person who is a public figure, who
is publicly living with HIV, been very involved in that fight,
and it's interesting living in this generation who didn't get
to see that death and didn't get to see that
destruction that happened with so many communities, and so it
then becomes on us the storytellers, to one remind people
(10:22):
not to forget about our past while also trying to
forge new ways forward to help move our community. And
we're in very interesting times when we think about just
the state of LGBTQ culture, black LGBTQ culture.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
What do you feel about this?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I hate to even call it a new rise in attacks,
but I feel like the more public we have become,
I'll say it that way, the more targeted we have become.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Oh wow, yeah, Well, I'm glad you put that into
historic context too, because I feel like there was a
transition that took place I would say probably starting.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Around that time in the nineties within the.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
LGBTQOI community, with black queer communities in particular.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I know that's going to sound weird to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
But one of the things that I remember when I
came out and began the inviting in process was the
whole experience of going to a nightclub. And I say this.
I say this because it was a very liberatory thing.
It was like, you go out and if you hear music,
you hear house music. You never heard that anywhere else.
People were just free and really enjoying themselves, and then
(11:38):
it started to crash. And I think this is something
that's been going on for a while. But I've always
said there are two influences that made an impact. One
was the HIV AIDS epidemic, which changed everything in terms
of the way black queer people identify ourselves. And then
second was hip hop. I think that hip hop sort
of created this sort of sort of hyper masculine image
(12:00):
that we sort of subscribed to in our communities. That
began the rise of the homothogue, which Robalton and other
people started talking about in the late nineteen nineties and
by magazine. For a lot of people looking back from
my generation, you would think, oh, well, people today are
so fortunate because they don't have to deal with a
lot of the.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Struggles that we dealt with.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
But on the other hand, I always remind people that
the opposite side of that is, with more visibility comes
the more tax And now we're seeing this huge backlash.
But it's not just about queer identity or black queer
identity or blackness itself. They're trying to roll back everything,
all the progress of the twentieth century and put us
back to the nineteenth century in terms of black people, women,
(12:41):
LGBTQIA people, all these things that anything that challenges the
way white, heteronormative people view the world has become a
subject of concern. That's the reason why they're banning books
like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to
stop the teaching of our history, black history, of queer history,
any history that challenges the whitewash norm.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And it's really disturbing to see this.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
But what's most disturbing because I don't think that everybody's
even fully aware of what's going on?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Like, this is efing crazy, what's going on right now?
Speaker 6 (13:13):
And people, I think, because they don't have that historical context,
they think that this is just normal.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Completely back Can I cuss on this?
Speaker 7 (13:20):
Yes, absolutely, it's completely bas and crazy.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Now back to my conversation with journalist Keith Boykin. So
your new book, why does Everything have to Be about race?
Twenty five arguments that won't go away? I think it
was perfect timing that a book needed to come out
like this with the current state of affairs. You brought
up a very interesting point about how they're trying to
(14:03):
roll us back to the nineteenth century, right because I
always said, like when I used to see Maga, I like, oh,
they want to go back to like the fifties. And
then when they banned black history in Florida, I said, oh,
they want to go back to the eighteen fifties.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Got it.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
People always say like, oh, we're post slavery, we're post segregation,
we're post these things, even though we're really not. We
never have been. These things have just been transformed into
new systems. So could you just give us a little
bit of insight into this amazing book you wrote and why.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Now, Yeah, you mentioned MAGA.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
The one question I would want to ask Donald Trump
above all else is when you say make America great again,
that assumes that America was great at some point in
the past. What year, specifically do you think America was great?
Because if it is the nineteen fifties, that's instructive in
its in of itself, because that was the time as
when we were segregated, when women didn't have rights, where
(15:00):
people had no race, but there's also a time when
we had a ninety four percent top marginal tax rate.
I'm sure he doesn't want to go back to that
era where people like him were paying a large amount
of taxes and the unions, where labor units are very strong,
because that's the way we were able to create a
post war economy that helped America be prosperous for a
half a century.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
But Reagan came in and dismantled all that.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
And so if he wants to go back, does he
only want to go back to the social structure of
that time of the nineteen fifties, or does he want
to go back to the economic structure, because the economic
structure was a lot fairer than our current economic structure.
But if he wants to go back to the eighteen fifties,
as you're suggesting, we have a whole different set of
problems here. We are at this momentous time in history
(15:43):
where we're being gas lit.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
A lot of people out there who are.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Clearly engaged in racist activity, racist thinking, racist behaviors, and
putting racist policies.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Aren't in total denial of it. The right thing is
if oh, it's not racist.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
That they're eliminating affirmative action, that's just helping all races.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
It has become acceptable because what used to be fringe.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Arguments and marginalized arguments have now been mainstream. And I
think these arguments are designed to mislead us, designed to
misdirect us. And so I started the book with a
quote from Tony Morrison, who is I think one of
your and my favorite authors, absolutely and Tony Morrison gave
this speech at Portland State University back in nineteen seventy
(16:28):
five where she talked about the function of racism, and
she said the function, the very serious function of racism
is distraction.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
She says, you know, it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Keeps you from doing your work, It keeps you explaining
over and over again. Somebody says your head is in
shape propist, you have to show that it is. Somebody
says you have no history, so you have to prove
that you do. Somebody says you have no art and cultures,
you have to dredge all that up. I've come up
with a secondary meeting, which I don't know if she
meant this as well, but I'm also interpreting it this
now that when she says the function of racism is distraction,
(16:59):
but it's also to distract white people.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Because there's so many.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Poor and middle class white people in America who don't
have good jobs, who don't have job security, who don't
have affordable health care, who can't afford to go to
college because college is so ridiculously expensive, who are looking
at all the issues that are going on in the
world today and saying, why are we in this problem?
(17:25):
And racism comes along and offers a distraction. So don't
think about an employment or housing, or education, or criminal
justice or climate change. Just think about those black people
and those brown people, think about those Mexicans coming across
the border.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
That's your real problem. That's what they want you to do.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
They want you to be so enraged by these peripheral
issues that have no impact on your day to day
life and won't make your life any better, so you
won't focus on the fact that the people who are
telling you this aren't doing anything to solve those problems.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Every time that there is.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
A period of black advancement, it's followed by peers of
white rage. And you saw this in the Civil War.
After the Civil War is over and emancipation, black people
have these rights, and you have the Reconstruction era from
eighteen sixty five to eighteen seventy seven.
Speaker 6 (18:18):
Then white people are like, oh no, we can't have
all this, We're gonna shut this stuff down.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
In reconstruction, they start the KKK, They start creating these
white citizens councils, they start creating erecting Confederate monuments. You know,
one hundred years after the Civil War, they start doing
all these things to fight back against the advancement of
black people.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
And we're seeing that right now.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
My grandmother always said, when you bless some time, you
gotta use your blessings to bless others. And I feel
like we and blessed with being voices from our generations,
and now we get to do that thing work to
uplift other voices that also so importantly need to be heard.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
If somebody had told me ten twenty years ago that
I would be doing what I'm doing right now and
living the way I'm living and still be happy and
able to do all things I want to do, I
would have been really excited about that, because I'm just yeah,
I'm fifty eight years old. I'm actually happy about that
because you know, a lot of people, especially in my community,
(19:33):
never got to be anywhere near this far. I think
about people like Elin Harris, who didn't even make it
to fifty eight.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I think living every year you're here is a blessing.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So I'm just grateful to be here and grateful to
be able to communicate with people like you.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
We don't get to look at a lot of older
black gay men because so many of them were taken
from us, and so even for a person like me,
it is a privilege to still be in community with
so many of you who not only gave us the
wisdoms but still continue to want us to elevate all
of the work that you all have done, and you know,
(20:08):
we continue to walk past with bricks that you all laid.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Thank you, George I appreciate you having me on this show,
and I'm so excited for everything you're doing.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
And congratulations and all the work and keep it up.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Today, I'm going to leave you with my favorite quote.
If there's a book you want to read and it
hasn't been written yet, then you must write it. That's
from the mighty Tony Morrison, literary giant who passed away
in twenty nineteen. She was the first black woman to
win a Nobel Prize in literature. Her novel The Bluest Eye,
(20:49):
which was published in nineteen seventy, has consistently been amongst
the most banned books in this country from the nineteen
nineties through today. I often joke about how when All
Boys Aren't Blue first hit the band book list, Tony
Morrison's book was also on it. It's probably the only
time I will make a list with the iconic Tony Morrison.
(21:12):
This quote is the only quote that I have tattooed
on my body. It's the one that I live by.
So remember that if you are searching for something in
this world and it just doesn't seem to exist, it
may be that you are the person that is supposed
to make it. And now in full. This is all
(21:33):
Boys Aren't Blue by Julian King. Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 7 (21:43):
I want this song.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
To shape the way America sees black and brown boys.
You know, and when you listen to this, when you
understand why I'm going.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Too many times I had to pologize too many times
in way you got it so I didn't have to
wake up in the morning.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I'm never gonna be worse.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
Too many times I give him opposition too many times.
I'll give you sad, sassion, And now I'm a granted
because I wasted in the time and I'm not on
you on. I've gotta be true to go hell gotta
be painful on her stead. I can be true to
whom I've a KNOWNSD me and really lost me for
(22:38):
a well and probably lose some friends unfortunately. But I'd
rather be down for me because of everybody trying to
live a life that brings a little.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Piece yell because song for.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
His un blues song is a grad song? Is that
a worth for God?
Speaker 7 (22:59):
And not long to understand me?
Speaker 5 (23:02):
Pride softs like boys else in the world.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
It was true so it's only.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
For you to read us and all boys humble.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
So many times I thought to myself, whoe would be
with you and everybody else? And I'm just trusting me
grabbing how about you not see it?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Say you love me? You say well love this is here.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
And living back up because testament to future me be
an example. Love was strongest soul the words is.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
And then he saying here I love you.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Day, I tell you I'm fighting for you. Gotta be
true to who who I am. I gotta be faiful
and where I stand I can be true to whoever
knows me and really loves me. For law. All might
lose some friends, unfortunate thing, but around the be down
for only me because the me be bunny trying to
(23:59):
live a life. If the prince little geese, Yeah, sample
he's on blue. Somebody's sailod. Some boys got a work
hard and feed it out in stand little little crid.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Some boys that bold pronouns in the world is true.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
For you to be boys on the blue. All boys
are blue, All boys on blue.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
They are blue.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
They are blue, they are blue. Songs on blue, getting
somble they side, yeah, work card and Nelson the world
(25:07):
show always Boys, Some boys like Some boys like you
(25:28):
songs Blue but Boys, There's some boys like some boys
like you.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Is That Can.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Producers are myself and Tweaky p gar Song with Adam
Pinkins and Brick.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Cats for Best Case Videos.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
The theme song was written and composed by Cole Voss,
Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Colevos. This episode was
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our Heart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rape, Fighting Words,
Wherever you get your Podcasts
The challenging part for me was I had to quit
my job.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
So I left my job working at the White House
and started working on this book, which was not the.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Very welcome idea.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
People don't usually leave a good, steady government job working
in the White House to go write a book about
being black and guy.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
That's my good friend Keith Boykin.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
He's a journalist and author, a film producer, and back
in the early nineties he was working for President Bill Clinton.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I was working in the White House as a special
assistant to the President, in the highest ranking openly gay
person in the Clinton White House, and that was a
dramatic change for me from having just come out to
being this high profile figure.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Even back then, Keith could see that certain prejudices were cyclical.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It felt a bit like deja vu.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
One of the biggest issues that people were talking about
in the early nineties was about whether LGBTQ people or
at that point it was just gaze where the gaze
should be allowed in the military, which is a really
stupid question because gay people were always in the military.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Anybody who knew anything about the military knew that was true, right.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
But what occurred to me is as I was listening
to a lot of the arguments about this is that
almost exactly the same things that people were saying about
why day and lesbian people should not be allowed in
the military. There were similar arguments to what people were
saying about why black people should not be allowed to
be integrated into the unforces back in the nineteen forties,
and it occurred to me, somebody should put all this
(01:26):
stuff together and write a book about it. So that
was sort of the beginning of the process.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Singing in the heavy handy, some of the world take
a sip of brandy, I spoke the guy.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
You know what the plan is?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
O became a Latin. You know one doesn't the stand me.
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is also the
second most banned book in the United States. This is
Fighting Words, where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and refuse to be silenced.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Today's guest Keith Boykin.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
When you bring on a first guest, you want to
bring on someone who you're cool with, You're comfortable with,
where you know the conversation is going to be free flowing, informational, educational,
and funny. And I couldn't think of anyone else but
my good friend mister Keith Boykin. Keith, how are you
doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I don't know if I'm going to live up to
the funny expectations.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I think you're pretty funny. We've had some very funny moments.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Keith. You have been just about everything.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
You have been a New York Time bestselling author, you
have worked at the White House.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
You you know you are a Harvard Law graduate.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Can you share just like a little bit of your
experience of what it was like being like a black
queer person at Harvard Law.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well that's where Harvard was a place where I first
came to terms with my sexual orientation. It was in
April nineteen ninety one when I started to feel an
attraction to another one of my classmates. I'd never had
any sort of sexual encounter with a man before this time.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And so you would get in a degree in two things, Ah, I.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Was getting I was getting a degree in three or
four things, to be honest, because I really wasn't even
in law school. For law school, I was. I was
an activist when I was in law school. I never
wanted to be a lawyer, so I was very clear
about that from the beginning. But yeah, but so I
had this experience and I realized that I'm gay, and
it was a weird time for me to experience that
(03:47):
because I didn't know any other black, queer people at
all on campus at that point. And so the first
thing I did after I told my mom is I
told a few other people on campus. In fact, one
of the first people I told was my law professor,
and it was such an interesting, funny experience. I remember
(04:08):
he kind of closed the door in his office and
leaned over on the desk and he kind of just
above a whisper, said to me, he said, so I
heard that you're gay.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Now.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
I was like, oh my god, really, like how did
you know? And he told me that one of the
other law professors had told him about it. And it
was such a weird thing that I was like, Oh
my god, law professors at Harvard are actually speculating about
my sex orientation.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I'm talking about it like behind my back.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
Like what a bizarre thing of all things to this
to be happening.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It was just such a weird experience for that it
happened the way it did.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
But for the most part, it was a really positive experience.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I was there at Harvard at the same time when
Barack Obama was in law school.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
He was a class ahead of Like, well, y'all actually
on campus together any point, or did y'all we were?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
He was a class of ninety one. I was a
class of ninety two.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
When my first book came out in nineteen ninety well,
I finished writing in nineteen eighty five. His first book
came out nineteenenty five. His first book was called Dreams
to My Father, and my first book was called One
More River Across Black and Gay in America. And so
Professor Charles Ogletree at Harvard invited both of us to
campus to this thing called Saturday School where we had
to talk about our books. And I remember he signed
(05:25):
a copy of his book to me, and I talked
about my book and everything. And at that point I
was working in the White House, and he told me
he was running for a state Senate and I was, oh, cool,
good for you. You know, Little did I know he
was going to be working in the White House one
day too. And a much higher capacity than I ever
dreamed of. That was kind of the culture of the
(05:48):
people who were there.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It felt like it was a very liberating free place.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
It felt like it was a safe space to be
who I was, and it didn't ocode to me until
after I left the Cocoon if you will, of Harvard
that oh, this is not the way the rest of
the world is. So that's when I kind of kind
of faced the harsh reality of what it meant to
be out in that world.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Even when I was writing All Boys Aren't Blue and
it was like just bringing up like the memories of
the safe space. It was like my family was such
a safe space that I didn't realize like having a
transgender cousin was an issue until like someone else outside
of my family told me, like, that's not everybody don't
have have trans people in they fan.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I was like, wait, what, Like.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
That's just hope, like what you mean like and seeing
how people's reaction to it was was like, Oh, this
is the world I'm going to have to live in.
(07:06):
So every week on the show, I like to highlight
a different queer contemporary artist. I think it's important to
use our platforms to amplify other people's platforms. This week's
song is All Boys Aren't Blue by Julian King. I
was honored when I first heard this song, which is
inspired by my book All Boys Are Blue, and which
shows us that art doesn't only have to be in
(07:26):
one form. Here's a short clip, and stay tuned at
the end of the episode for the full track.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You have to wake up in the morning.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
I'm never gonna be worshed too many times. I'll give
a popsy shine too many times. I'll give you sa
sashion and now I'm recredited because I'm wasting the time
and I'm not on you all. I've gotta beat your
twoful white gotta be faithful on our stead. I can
(07:57):
beat you.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Now back to my conversation with journalist Keith Boykin. Now,
you know you're talking about the nineties, around the height
of the HIV epidemic, or right after I would say
treatments first started to be introduced. Could you also kind
of tell us like what that experience was like. As one,
You're this public figure now working at the White House,
(08:19):
black gay man. You had the intersection of the HIV
epidemic and you also have this whole introduction which would
be coming some years later around like download culture in
the black community.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, it reminds me when I first had the conversation
with my mom back in nineteen ninety one, called her
from the phone, Texas and we had a very long,
difficult conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
But the first two things she teld me were at first,
she told.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Me that she loved me, which was the most important
thing I needed to hear from my mom. But second
thing she told me was to be careful. And I
knew what she meant by that, and it became clear
over time what she meant even more. But she meant
that she knew that it was going to be easy.
She knew that hivy age was a huge issue for
(09:08):
people in the LGBTQA community, but particularly for black a men.
And she knew that there's also a threat of violence
because my mom's brother, who was my uncle, was murdered
back in nineteen eighty in part, I believe because he
was good, and I think I saw so much of
the death and destruction that wiped out people in our
community because I came out in this early nineties environment,
(09:31):
when that generation of people who were writers.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
From the late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties. The
Essex Hemphills and the Craig Harris and the Marlon riggs
Is of the world and the Joe Beams. Those people
were all dying. Yeah, and that's the whole generation of
black queer leaders and literary figures who just disappeared and
were never able to transfer their knowledge to the next generation.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I am a person who is a public figure, who
is publicly living with HIV, been very involved in that fight,
and it's interesting living in this generation who didn't get
to see that death and didn't get to see that
destruction that happened with so many communities, and so it
then becomes on us the storytellers, to one remind people
(10:22):
not to forget about our past while also trying to
forge new ways forward to help move our community. And
we're in very interesting times when we think about just
the state of LGBTQ culture, black LGBTQ culture.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
What do you feel about this?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I hate to even call it a new rise in attacks,
but I feel like the more public we have become,
I'll say it that way, the more targeted we have become.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Oh wow, yeah, Well, I'm glad you put that into
historic context too, because I feel like there was a
transition that took place I would say probably starting.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Around that time in the nineties within the.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
LGBTQOI community, with black queer communities in particular.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I know that's going to sound weird to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
But one of the things that I remember when I
came out and began the inviting in process was the
whole experience of going to a nightclub. And I say this.
I say this because it was a very liberatory thing.
It was like, you go out and if you hear music,
you hear house music. You never heard that anywhere else.
People were just free and really enjoying themselves, and then
(11:38):
it started to crash. And I think this is something
that's been going on for a while. But I've always
said there are two influences that made an impact. One
was the HIV AIDS epidemic, which changed everything in terms
of the way black queer people identify ourselves. And then
second was hip hop. I think that hip hop sort
of created this sort of sort of hyper masculine image
(12:00):
that we sort of subscribed to in our communities. That
began the rise of the homothogue, which Robalton and other
people started talking about in the late nineteen nineties and
by magazine. For a lot of people looking back from
my generation, you would think, oh, well, people today are
so fortunate because they don't have to deal with a
lot of the.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Struggles that we dealt with.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
But on the other hand, I always remind people that
the opposite side of that is, with more visibility comes
the more tax And now we're seeing this huge backlash.
But it's not just about queer identity or black queer
identity or blackness itself. They're trying to roll back everything,
all the progress of the twentieth century and put us
back to the nineteenth century in terms of black people, women,
(12:41):
LGBTQIA people, all these things that anything that challenges the
way white, heteronormative people view the world has become a
subject of concern. That's the reason why they're banning books
like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to
stop the teaching of our history, black history, of queer history,
any history that challenges the whitewash norm.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And it's really disturbing to see this.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
But what's most disturbing because I don't think that everybody's
even fully aware of what's going on?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Like, this is efing crazy, what's going on right now?
Speaker 6 (13:13):
And people, I think, because they don't have that historical context,
they think that this is just normal.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Completely back Can I cuss on this?
Speaker 7 (13:20):
Yes, absolutely, it's completely bas and crazy.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Now back to my conversation with journalist Keith Boykin. So
your new book, why does Everything have to Be about race?
Twenty five arguments that won't go away? I think it
was perfect timing that a book needed to come out
like this with the current state of affairs. You brought
up a very interesting point about how they're trying to
(14:03):
roll us back to the nineteenth century, right because I
always said, like when I used to see Maga, I like, oh,
they want to go back to like the fifties. And
then when they banned black history in Florida, I said, oh,
they want to go back to the eighteen fifties.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Got it.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
People always say like, oh, we're post slavery, we're post segregation,
we're post these things, even though we're really not. We
never have been. These things have just been transformed into
new systems. So could you just give us a little
bit of insight into this amazing book you wrote and why.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Now, Yeah, you mentioned MAGA.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
The one question I would want to ask Donald Trump
above all else is when you say make America great again,
that assumes that America was great at some point in
the past. What year, specifically do you think America was great?
Because if it is the nineteen fifties, that's instructive in
its in of itself, because that was the time as
when we were segregated, when women didn't have rights, where
(15:00):
people had no race, but there's also a time when
we had a ninety four percent top marginal tax rate.
I'm sure he doesn't want to go back to that
era where people like him were paying a large amount
of taxes and the unions, where labor units are very strong,
because that's the way we were able to create a
post war economy that helped America be prosperous for a
half a century.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
But Reagan came in and dismantled all that.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
And so if he wants to go back, does he
only want to go back to the social structure of
that time of the nineteen fifties, or does he want
to go back to the economic structure, because the economic
structure was a lot fairer than our current economic structure.
But if he wants to go back to the eighteen fifties,
as you're suggesting, we have a whole different set of
problems here. We are at this momentous time in history
(15:43):
where we're being gas lit.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
A lot of people out there who are.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Clearly engaged in racist activity, racist thinking, racist behaviors, and
putting racist policies.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Aren't in total denial of it. The right thing is
if oh, it's not racist.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
That they're eliminating affirmative action, that's just helping all races.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
It has become acceptable because what used to be fringe.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Arguments and marginalized arguments have now been mainstream. And I
think these arguments are designed to mislead us, designed to
misdirect us. And so I started the book with a
quote from Tony Morrison, who is I think one of
your and my favorite authors, absolutely and Tony Morrison gave
this speech at Portland State University back in nineteen seventy
(16:28):
five where she talked about the function of racism, and
she said the function, the very serious function of racism
is distraction.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
She says, you know, it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Keeps you from doing your work, It keeps you explaining
over and over again. Somebody says your head is in
shape propist, you have to show that it is. Somebody
says you have no history, so you have to prove
that you do. Somebody says you have no art and cultures,
you have to dredge all that up. I've come up
with a secondary meeting, which I don't know if she
meant this as well, but I'm also interpreting it this
now that when she says the function of racism is distraction,
(16:59):
but it's also to distract white people.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Because there's so many.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Poor and middle class white people in America who don't
have good jobs, who don't have job security, who don't
have affordable health care, who can't afford to go to
college because college is so ridiculously expensive, who are looking
at all the issues that are going on in the
world today and saying, why are we in this problem?
(17:25):
And racism comes along and offers a distraction. So don't
think about an employment or housing, or education, or criminal
justice or climate change. Just think about those black people
and those brown people, think about those Mexicans coming across
the border.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
That's your real problem. That's what they want you to do.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
They want you to be so enraged by these peripheral
issues that have no impact on your day to day
life and won't make your life any better, so you
won't focus on the fact that the people who are
telling you this aren't doing anything to solve those problems.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Every time that there is.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
A period of black advancement, it's followed by peers of
white rage. And you saw this in the Civil War.
After the Civil War is over and emancipation, black people
have these rights, and you have the Reconstruction era from
eighteen sixty five to eighteen seventy seven.
Speaker 6 (18:18):
Then white people are like, oh no, we can't have
all this, We're gonna shut this stuff down.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
In reconstruction, they start the KKK, They start creating these
white citizens councils, they start creating erecting Confederate monuments. You know,
one hundred years after the Civil War, they start doing
all these things to fight back against the advancement of
black people.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
And we're seeing that right now.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
My grandmother always said, when you bless some time, you
gotta use your blessings to bless others. And I feel
like we and blessed with being voices from our generations,
and now we get to do that thing work to
uplift other voices that also so importantly need to be heard.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
If somebody had told me ten twenty years ago that
I would be doing what I'm doing right now and
living the way I'm living and still be happy and
able to do all things I want to do, I
would have been really excited about that, because I'm just yeah,
I'm fifty eight years old. I'm actually happy about that
because you know, a lot of people, especially in my community,
(19:33):
never got to be anywhere near this far. I think
about people like Elin Harris, who didn't even make it
to fifty eight.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I think living every year you're here is a blessing.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So I'm just grateful to be here and grateful to
be able to communicate with people like you.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
We don't get to look at a lot of older
black gay men because so many of them were taken
from us, and so even for a person like me,
it is a privilege to still be in community with
so many of you who not only gave us the
wisdoms but still continue to want us to elevate all
of the work that you all have done, and you know,
(20:08):
we continue to walk past with bricks that you all laid.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Thank you, George I appreciate you having me on this show,
and I'm so excited for everything you're doing.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
And congratulations and all the work and keep it up.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Today, I'm going to leave you with my favorite quote.
If there's a book you want to read and it
hasn't been written yet, then you must write it. That's
from the mighty Tony Morrison, literary giant who passed away
in twenty nineteen. She was the first black woman to
win a Nobel Prize in literature. Her novel The Bluest Eye,
(20:49):
which was published in nineteen seventy, has consistently been amongst
the most banned books in this country from the nineteen
nineties through today. I often joke about how when All
Boys Aren't Blue first hit the band book list, Tony
Morrison's book was also on it. It's probably the only
time I will make a list with the iconic Tony Morrison.
(21:12):
This quote is the only quote that I have tattooed
on my body. It's the one that I live by.
So remember that if you are searching for something in
this world and it just doesn't seem to exist, it
may be that you are the person that is supposed
to make it. And now in full. This is all
(21:33):
Boys Aren't Blue by Julian King. Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 7 (21:43):
I want this song.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
To shape the way America sees black and brown boys.
You know, and when you listen to this, when you
understand why I'm going.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Too many times I had to pologize too many times
in way you got it so I didn't have to
wake up in the morning.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I'm never gonna be worse.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
Too many times I give him opposition too many times.
I'll give you sad, sassion, And now I'm a granted
because I wasted in the time and I'm not on
you on. I've gotta be true to go hell gotta
be painful on her stead. I can be true to
whom I've a KNOWNSD me and really lost me for
(22:38):
a well and probably lose some friends unfortunately. But I'd
rather be down for me because of everybody trying to
live a life that brings a little.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Piece yell because song for.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
His un blues song is a grad song? Is that
a worth for God?
Speaker 7 (22:59):
And not long to understand me?
Speaker 5 (23:02):
Pride softs like boys else in the world.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
It was true so it's only.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
For you to read us and all boys humble.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
So many times I thought to myself, whoe would be
with you and everybody else? And I'm just trusting me
grabbing how about you not see it?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Say you love me? You say well love this is here.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
And living back up because testament to future me be
an example. Love was strongest soul the words is.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
And then he saying here I love you.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Day, I tell you I'm fighting for you. Gotta be
true to who who I am. I gotta be faiful
and where I stand I can be true to whoever
knows me and really loves me. For law. All might
lose some friends, unfortunate thing, but around the be down
for only me because the me be bunny trying to
(23:59):
live a life. If the prince little geese, Yeah, sample
he's on blue. Somebody's sailod. Some boys got a work
hard and feed it out in stand little little crid.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Some boys that bold pronouns in the world is true.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
For you to be boys on the blue. All boys
are blue, All boys on blue.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
They are blue.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
They are blue, they are blue. Songs on blue, getting
somble they side, yeah, work card and Nelson the world
(25:07):
show always Boys, Some boys like Some boys like you
(25:28):
songs Blue but Boys, There's some boys like some boys
like you.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Is That Can.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Producers are myself and Tweaky p gar Song with Adam
Pinkins and Brick.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Cats for Best Case Videos.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
The theme song was written and composed by Cole Voss,
Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Colevos. This episode was
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our Heart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rape, Fighting Words,
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