February 18, 2025 • 30 mins
George is joined by author and producer Darnell Moore, whose debut memoir won a LAMDA Literary Award. Darnell was one of the first people to read George’s book proposal for All Boys Aren’t Blue, and has been a guiding force for many young authors. They get into the importance of Black mentorship, Black care, and Darnell reveals what it's like bringing his vision to Netflix. Todays' Queer Artist Spotlight is on “Lifeguard" by Rylic.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
We can't do to each other what the system does
to us. I would not be here literally sitting here
talking to you. I would not be grieving had that
not been people to come along in my life to
hold me. None of us exists as an island like.
Part of the power of black queer creativity and collectivity
(00:23):
is a fact that we got us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You know, for everyone out there listening, that's Darnell Moore.
He's a writer, a producer, and an educator. His first book,
No Asses in the Fire, Coming of Age, Black and
Free in America, won a LAMBA Literary Award. When I
wrote my first book, All Boys Aren't Blue, Darnell was
the first person I contacted when I wrote my proposal
(00:45):
for it. He takes his role as a mentor, especially
the black queer folks in activism, community and entertainment, very seriously.
I and many others wouldn't be where we are today
without him.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We have a responsibility, I believe, to not sort of
replicate the Americanized version of meritocracy and sort of rugged
individualism and turn towards a type of black care.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Singing in them heavy handy, what the world? Take a
sip of brandy, you spoke the guy. You know what
the plan is overcame and Latin. You know one does
understand me.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
My name is George M.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is also the
second most bamed book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and refuse to be silenced.
Today's guest is none other than Darnell Moore. Super excited,
super grateful to have a friend A I hate to
(02:09):
say mentor because that sounds so old, like I don't
want to hate you a little bit, but I would
say a big brother in life and spirit. Darnell Moore
here with me today. I'm grateful for you and grateful
that you're here.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Wait, can I just say I am grateful for you.
I'm excited to see your face. You all can't see, George.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
What I believe I had.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
A professor's name was doctor Welch. He used to say
there are certain people that he used to call Ebenezers
that show up in your life that changed the total
trajectory of where you were going.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Even if you didn't know.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Where you were going, there are certain people who could
see where you're going and guide you on that path.
And so I guess, like what I want to ask you,
is I know what you've done for me. I think
I actually know what you've done for a lot of folks.
What is it that continues to give you the purpose
driven life to be such a a thought leader in
your own right, but also such a connector to make
(03:00):
sure that those who are coming after you have opportunities
that they may not even see for themselves.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
You know, I'm Aquarius, so I'm wired in so many
ways to be like altruistic and just of the world.
And I love my people and I love my people big.
But I came up in a generation. I was born
in seventy six, So you have a right to call
me old.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
It's all good. I got graam my bear here, right.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And so the generation of black gay men who were
to be my mentors, folks who were to be my
big brothers, were pretty much a good Many of them
were taken by the HIV and AIDS epidemic.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
They left early.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
You know, I grew up in a city right across
from Philly, which is where Joseph Beem was walking the streets.
I wasn't far from DC, growing up in Camden, New Jersey,
which is where Essex Mfield was right. Those are the
folk whose works resonate with me so much today, but
whose works also haunt me because they left here early,
(04:07):
so coming up really wanting direction and examples for how
I might not only sort of learn how to sort
of write a life on a page, a black queer
life on a page, but also like what it meant
to just to be a black boy growing up in
this world, Like I didn't have those elders to talk to.
(04:27):
And by the time I made it to the streets
thirteen streets specifically in Philly when I was super young, eighteen,
you know, so many of the generation that was in
the same sort of in the same age bracket of mine,
they were also dying around me as in like quick succession.
So I've always been, I think, haunted by the ghost
(04:49):
of accumulated loss. And if you think about it, there
were a whole bunch of black kids who at black queer,
trans non binary mentors because an epidemic that the government
woefully ignored took them away from us right. So what
(05:11):
that meant for me is that I became very adamant
about making sure that I could give to those that
were coming up alongside of me the very thing that
I desired and didn't always receive. I'll also say that
I came up in the age of social media, but
I was like pre social media too, so I got
both capacities to sort of like rock with you on Twitter,
(05:34):
even though I'm not on Twitter anymore, and like rock
with you in the streets, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
And I was of you.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Know, we come from this sort of blogger generation, this
generation of black queer folks who started using social media
as another tool in our arsenal. And I remember elder
what people would consider elders who wasn't really fucking with me.
They were they weren't really seeing me. I remember one
parton I'm not gonna say that name, and I hope
you listen. I love you down, but I remember you
(06:02):
said to me, what are you doing? This is what
this person said to me. What are you doing? Like,
what are you trying to do with your life? Like
what do you want to become? And I'm like, I'm
out here. I know I may be doing things different
than the ways that you know, my folk that came
before me might have been doing things. And by the way,
the work that I was doing in the world I
(06:23):
can only do because of the work that they did.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But there was a sudden sort of like inquisitiveness, a curiousness,
some hater raid that was coming from some of the
black gay men in my life, who I assumed thought
that I was getting some shine that they weren't getting.
That's my assumption. Other part of it was like some
of them were trying to holler, and I wasn't hollering back, right,
(06:49):
So I think some of it was a mix of both.
That was my walk. I wanted black gay big brothers
and mentors, and some people did show up for me,
but a good number folk did not, And I wanted
to return in the favor when it came time for
me to sort of like move in my own life.
(07:09):
What I will end with is big shout out to
the black women, particularly black lesbians who took me under
their wings, like Chryl Clark and Jackie Alexander and June
dal Burton and so Reverend Jackie, Like I mean, I
can go down the line with so many people black
women specifically who became the thing that I needed and
(07:29):
so many others.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
So yeah, that was a long way to get.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Back O you. I feel like I have also been
on the road less traveled at times. I feel like
I've also been questioned with a lot of the ways
that I've chosen to have my career. And I also
feel like I've also run into that mentality that comes
from community that's like.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Well, why you not me?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
When I hear you even say like you've had those
type of problems. One, it is affirming, confirming in a
lot of ways to be like, oh, like this is
validating me, because a lot of times we feel like
is it just me that has to deal with the
refusal of passing the baton from certain elders?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Sure, sure, which is a tough conversation, the intergenerational conversation,
as you stated, the HIV epidemic, which because you had
a whole generation kind of like removed in a sense,
and then you have these new kids who actually don't
really remember the epidemic.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I like to always say, like, I want to be
better practice at pointing a finger out myself. And one
of the lessons that I learned is I didn't do
enough early on to deeply learn about the many contributions
of the black gay men who came before me, Like
I wasn't curious enough. Now, don't get me wrong, Like
(08:46):
I knew that they existed, but like I know that
my growth came when I stopped for a second and
had to say, wait a minute, there were whole bunch
of people before me that did some really good ass work,
Like when I discovered Other Countries, which was a collective
(09:08):
of black queer writers, black gay men by men, non
binary folks, some lesbians would come, that would gather in
New York and published a few anthologies, and I went
to their works. It's like a side of Saint and
all these folk, and I'm like, y'all was saying the
things I'm saying ten times more beautiful, like more like
part of the way that I do feel like we
can hone the futures by honor in the past. And
(09:31):
I don't know if we've always always done a good
job of not only learning from once we've come the
life worlds of the people who didn't have the benefit
of a social media hashtag or site to sort of
proliferate their life stories, but we got to do the
what you did right with the book you just published. Right,
you went back, You went back to find out those
(09:52):
stories that were there if you go look for them,
and also to celebrate them, like making a sort of
life path that going to be youthful to anybody means
that I'm going to have to celebrate and bring my
people along with me, including the ones, especially the ones
who've done so much work and often have gone unnoticed
and visibilized, left to die in the archive and in
(10:15):
real life. And I do think our young folks have
an opportunity to be better at learning the foundations upon
which we stand, so we don't get up here and
act like the shit that we doing. Sometimes it's new
what you've done in your career is actually singular, George.
You've done some singular things in your career, right, we
(10:35):
can name that. But you have enough wisdom, I think,
to harken back and to pull those lessons forward into
the work that you're doing today, which I think is
squarely innovative.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I'ma do my thank he i'mma do my thing. I
did not come to play.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
I ain't got no living.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yes, the queer artist Spotlight of the week is a
song by one of my dear friends, Riley. It's called Lifeguard,
and here's a short clip. Stay tuned to the end
of the episode if you'd like to hear the full
track looking for a Life God.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Maybe you want to swim? Want to swim with the
light song.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And now back to my conversation with writer and producer
Darnell Moore. It's interesting because I remember one for those
who don't know, Like before I wrote All Boys Aren't
Blue and was just a baby journalist trying to find
my way, there were these phenomenal memoirs that all came
(11:46):
out around the same time by Darnell Michael Arsenal as
well as said there's a four person Casey Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Casey Gerald.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
There were these four amazing memoirs that all came out
around the same time, and I think it gave it
definitely gave me the inspiration to want to even tell
my own story and truth be told. Darnelle was one
of the first persons to ever even read my proposal.
Before it was called All Boys Are Blue, it was
called Smile, Black Boys Smile. I say that to say
that there's a behind the scenes that happens. I feel
(12:17):
when it comes to black queer folks that a lot
of people don't fully get to see. This is part
of why I wanted to do the podcast, whether it
is hey, can you look at this for me before
I have to send it to this publisher because you've
been through this process, whether it's the biggest thing I
have to deal with now is the sharing of numbers
behind the scenes so that we make sure that and
when people are like, what do you mean sharing numbers?
(12:38):
I mean like, this is what I got paid to
do this, don't accept less than this. This is when
I got paid to do that. Don't accept less than that.
Or hey, this is what they offered me, what do
you feel about it? And going to one another, I
feel like in writing Flamboyance about the Hall of Renaissance
and learning about the Niggarati, these things already were happening
(13:00):
and we just didn't know it. They were already meeting
and sharing numbers and sharing stories and doing that type
of work. So I guess my question to you would
be like, what is the importance of us continuing to
do that, that behind the scenes work, that, as we
like to call it, that secret black meeting work, and
how do we teach the newer generation, like, hey, y'all
(13:20):
are much stronger as a collective. All these opportunities y'all
are fighting for. Y'all shouldn't be fighting each other for them.
Y'all should be fighting the system that made it this
way for you to have to fight each other for them.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Listen, I always say that, you know, I'm not certain
that crabs in a barrel would fight so hard against
each other if it weren't for the barrel. Maybe they would,
But I think the sort of the idea still is
right to say that it isn't The focus isn't the
It's not the crab fighting the crab. The focus is
(13:52):
on the container, the containment, really the system that we
are all trying to work within. And if we could
and turn our attention from one another, our negative attention
from one another, to the system, and remember, there's enough
space for all of us, there's enough space for all
of our big creativity, for all of our love, and
(14:12):
that's a good starting place. But I'll also say, we
can't do to each other what the system does to us.
That's been a matra of mine. We can't do to
each other what the system does to us. I would
not be here literally sitting here talking to you. I
would not be breathing had there not been people to
come along in my life to hold me and to
(14:34):
make sure that I was good, to sew into me,
to teach me some things. And none of us exists
as an island.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Like.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Part of the power of black queer creativity and collectivity
is a fact that we got us like, we have
a responsibility I believe to not sort of replicate the
Americanized version of meritocracy and sort of rugged individualism and
turn towards a type of black care. And by the way,
(15:06):
like black people at large, I mean, one of the
things that we've been good at is not only caring
for each other, but caring for this nation. Like that's
what we do, and it just behooves us right to
offer each other.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I care.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And here's something, whenever I feel myself getting jealous, I've
got jealous throughout my career. I've set him back and gone,
why why is this happening for such and such? Or
I'm looking at somebody else's timeline and judging my own
timeline against it. And whenever we feel that way, I
would go in even deeper to help the person. Don't
(15:37):
get caught up in sort of egotistical, jealous, self centered
desires that you have. Like part of the way you
get what you deserve is by giving what you deserve.
And that's been my lesson, Like give the thing that
you want. And sometimes that means, yeah, it means I
(15:59):
need to sort of help you get your book done
and I'll get to mine.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I'll get to mine.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
No, that's interesting, and I agree, Like I've been jealous before.
Have I said this out loud publicly? Probably the reason
I wrote All Boys on Blue is because I was
mad that somebody else got a book deal before me.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
But you know what, it's what I'm gonna say, Like
it's important, Like it's important to say those things.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yes, I get jealous, We get jealous.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, you know, like I still bent out of shape
when I'm like looking at somebody else's timeline, I'm like, wait,
I still didn't get X project done.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
They got twenty.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Those are real feelings, These are real, you know, So
thank you for naming that.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, and now back to my conversation with author and
producer Darnell Moore. You have had several careers in your
(17:04):
life just from when I've known you, like it was like, oh,
Darnell's like a writer, that was like Darnell's an editor,
and then you went to Netflix and we all gagged.
So of course this created a new found vision of
us being like, oh wait a minute, like these spaces
are accessible to us, even when we come from worlds
that we don't think can mesh into those spaces. Could
(17:25):
you just tell us, you know, what it is is
your vision as a writer to see what we can
put forth in the television and film space. I always
am a true believer that, like, our work doesn't just
exist in one medium.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I was surprised too when I got you know, as
somebody who has also been heavily involved in organizing work,
I started to realize early on that a lot of
the loud talking and organizing I was doing was really
(18:00):
talking to the choir. And for me, arts and culture
has always been another modality, another route to get to
people that may not be sitting in the quote unquote peues.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So the last ten to fifteen years was really about
me having new tools at my disposal to do the
same work that I've always done, and that is using
whatever means we have necessary to help people change not
only their lives, but their hearts and their minds and
to undo what Balhiks call white supremacists hetero patriarchy. Right,
(18:35):
So going to Netflix was like an easy yes, especially
since the job was focused on supporting content organization, studio
operations of production, animation, studio marketing, publicity, comms, awards like
I've been on on film, both as talent and also
(18:55):
behind the fit, like behind the camera as a director
and producer. I like, I've I've done all of those things.
So when I went into it, my thought was it
was just another opportunity, a big one, nonetheless, to add
my worldview, my expertise, my team's worldviews are expertise to
a company that is at the helm it's a leader
(19:17):
in what it does in terms of streaming.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And I did that for four and a half years.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
It was amazing work to be able to have my
team consult on so maybe I don't know, two hundred
are so titles?
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Right?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
And sometimes that looks very small, like can you read
a script and give us notes? Sometimes it's like can
we bring you in to sort of train a showrunner?
We developed showrunner's trainings, all matter of things. So right now,
after having a break, I call it my respite, my
freedom moment from having left and Netflix.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Back at it.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You know, I'm working on a soon a work on
a screenplay, executive producing a feature doc on bal Hook's
executive producing a dot called White in America baal hook
Stock is being directed by Dream Hampton. Just got the
contract for my second book, which I'm finally finally get
back now that for years, so happily I'm signed with
(20:15):
with One World.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Ultimately.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
You know, what I feel for us as creators, Black
creators in this moment is that we should use whatever
capacities we have, don't feel restricted to be in any
one box, and what we don't know we can learn.
You know, I watched Titus Kafar's Exhibit and Forgiveness when
he showed his film at Gogozian. He never written up
(20:43):
a screenplay before he sat down. Over the course, I
think three or four months, wrote a screenplay and directed
his first film. It's a beautiful, stunning work, and it
just reminded me how much we can do when we
just believe even ourselves first and not wait for any
industry to put a check mark.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Next to the box of the thing that we want
to do, we can do it.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
So I guess what would be your fighting words to give.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
As encouragement to the I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I guess the future generations, the current generations, even people
who are in our generations who are just looking for
something to hold on to. What words can you give
as the fighting word? Mantra for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So it's twenty twenty five. We've just witnessed an administration
of white nationalists, Christian nationalists dot dot dot enter into
power in the White House on Martin Luther King day,
(22:00):
same day as an inauguration. So how does one respond,
especially how our black people to respond to a nation
state that we have put so much faith in. And
I always say, the fact that this country still exists
as is like without having a rage of black people
consume it says something about the reality that as far
(22:21):
as much harm has been done to us, our love
for this country and our faith in it still compels
us to do something like get out there and vote
writ large because of that hope that we have in
this country. I would say it, And I don't know
if I have the perfect sentence. But I tire of
(22:43):
releasing so much of my love and my attention to
white normativity to this country. And part of what I
want this year is for us to turn our attention
back to each other, reserve all of the energy that
we would have used to fight somebody, to tell somebody
(23:04):
that they're wrong, somebody walking by us with maga hats
on signifying that they're part of this sort of nationalist movement.
You know, old neighbors like I have who are on
Instagram every day mocking the quote unquote woke people.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I ain't giving them my energy like that.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I'm not putting my energy, investing my heart, my heart's
my mind into anybody that can't see me.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Let's turn to each other.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I'm serious, be angry, be upset, But by divesting our
energy like really in sort of like like white rage
and turnative into black love is how we build up
the necessary community and psychological space that we are going
to need to survive not only this four years, but
(23:53):
to survive has always been a fire that has been
America that we've been living through and moving through.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So that would be it turn to each other.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I love that divest your energy and white rage and
turn it into black love. I couldn't have said it
any more poetically myself. What do they say the three
emotions are, it's not really loving hate, it's loving fear.
Come on, and so that white rage oftentimes is because
of a fear. So we're able to turn that fear
into love. I think that's where we take back our power.
(24:25):
Darnell more everyone. Yeah, Like, there's no me without you,
no shade, and people just need to understand.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
You're no same. Yes, thank you same, thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
What is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal,
and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised
or misunderstood. I know anger. Today's quote is very near
and dear to my heart. It's from Joseph Being, an
author from Philadelphia who wrote short stories, essays, and poetry.
(25:06):
In the early nineteen eighties, Joseph Being worked in a
bookstore in Philadelphia called Giovanni's Room after the iconic James
Baldwin novel, but ironically, there weren't a lot of books
by black gay men there, so in nineteen eighty six,
Joseph Being published the first ever black gay anthology in America,
Gathering essays poems and fiction from authors in his community.
(25:28):
He said that he spoke for the brothers who's silence
has cost them their sanity. Joseph being passed away due
to complications from AIDS in nineteen ninety five. As a
person living with HIV, I understand what it means to
be silenced. It was people like Joseph being who fought
(25:50):
for our voices to be heard. It's people like him
who did the work that allows me to be alive
today and do the very very very very important work
of sharing my words, my story, and my truth with.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
The world and now in full.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
This is Lifeguard by Ry Alexander. Thanks for listening to
fighting words and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Looking for a life God time, Maybe wanna swim? Wanna
swim with the life soft look called a little my Gus.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
I'm on the show. Got a little my gus, called
a little some my God.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Some call a little some my gus. Got a little
some my God. Looking for some prayers. Pray for God
that that don'll think you but you feel in den
we can stack of bless the rangers who have been
the nineties learned how they'll be your play, you pay
my part of the part of me is just be
becoming in your favorite what's my name? Saying something like
(27:01):
my tone used to change it? Her good boys bit
his glass? How fast you want to hill? The baby
slipping off this ram.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
That's the thing in the buildings. I slip in with
the gas, never putting no air.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
Into your past.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I passed a couple of us on Tuesday, say.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I say that they for maybe lady bade the rescues
on the way for a life God, Maybe wanna swim,
wanna swim with the light soft b got a little sun,
my guts some on the show, got a little son,
my gus.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
Some got a little some my gus some God a
little some my gut something, got a little some.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
My gout some if you got your God to put
your up on my face.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
They said, there's no way. There's no Bacon like Mace,
No only couple you, there's no one.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
There's the way the way that Jay says, Oh say
you know there's nothing in the safe, Say take a
walk in the wild. If you walk with me, they
know what mister person's fouled by bout it. It's a while.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
You didn't get it anywhere. If you get up for
a spile, I would put it.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
If you say it, come around, baby, Why with these
If you choose it, you're gonna drown.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Travel your fade.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Choose it to the fade, treating to the putting, nothing
but the same for a lifeguard.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
T Baby, want to swim? Wanna swem with the light off.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
It's got a little so.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
I got some of the show.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Got a little so my God. Something got a little some,
my God. Some got a little some, My God. Something
got a little some, my God.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Some look at life, God, God, look at God.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Tell me what you look up and you look up
to baby guarded like thess in the the water. Let
it down, down, Baby, take the top of the guitar.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Take it down.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Baby wants to messing with the doz. Probably feels like
you gonna swim and should probably took a polly. Probably
see me he has an option.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Probaly see me as you likes to probaly see me as.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
You're looking for a lifeguard.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Maybe you want to swim, and you want to swim
with the light song got a little some, my God,
something keeping for a life God God. Maybe want to swim,
want to Swim with the Light song, got a little some,
My got some, the show got a little some, My God,
(29:36):
some got a little some.
Speaker 5 (29:39):
My got some, got a little some, My got something, got.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
A little some, I Got some.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaky
Puchi Guar Song with Adam Pinkss.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
And Brick Cats for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
The theme song was written and composed by cole Vos
Banbianna and Myself. Original music by Colevas. This episode was
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our iHeart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rape, Fighting Words,
Wherever you get your Podcasts
We can't do to each other what the system does
to us. I would not be here literally sitting here
talking to you. I would not be grieving had that
not been people to come along in my life to
hold me. None of us exists as an island like.
Part of the power of black queer creativity and collectivity
(00:23):
is a fact that we got us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You know, for everyone out there listening, that's Darnell Moore.
He's a writer, a producer, and an educator. His first book,
No Asses in the Fire, Coming of Age, Black and
Free in America, won a LAMBA Literary Award. When I
wrote my first book, All Boys Aren't Blue, Darnell was
the first person I contacted when I wrote my proposal
(00:45):
for it. He takes his role as a mentor, especially
the black queer folks in activism, community and entertainment, very seriously.
I and many others wouldn't be where we are today
without him.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We have a responsibility, I believe, to not sort of
replicate the Americanized version of meritocracy and sort of rugged
individualism and turn towards a type of black care.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Singing in them heavy handy, what the world? Take a
sip of brandy, you spoke the guy. You know what
the plan is overcame and Latin. You know one does
understand me.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
My name is George M.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is also the
second most bamed book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and refuse to be silenced.
Today's guest is none other than Darnell Moore. Super excited,
super grateful to have a friend A I hate to
(02:09):
say mentor because that sounds so old, like I don't
want to hate you a little bit, but I would
say a big brother in life and spirit. Darnell Moore
here with me today. I'm grateful for you and grateful
that you're here.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Wait, can I just say I am grateful for you.
I'm excited to see your face. You all can't see, George.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
What I believe I had.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
A professor's name was doctor Welch. He used to say
there are certain people that he used to call Ebenezers
that show up in your life that changed the total
trajectory of where you were going.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Even if you didn't know.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Where you were going, there are certain people who could
see where you're going and guide you on that path.
And so I guess, like what I want to ask you,
is I know what you've done for me. I think
I actually know what you've done for a lot of folks.
What is it that continues to give you the purpose
driven life to be such a a thought leader in
your own right, but also such a connector to make
(03:00):
sure that those who are coming after you have opportunities
that they may not even see for themselves.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
You know, I'm Aquarius, so I'm wired in so many
ways to be like altruistic and just of the world.
And I love my people and I love my people big.
But I came up in a generation. I was born
in seventy six, So you have a right to call
me old.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
It's all good. I got graam my bear here, right.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And so the generation of black gay men who were
to be my mentors, folks who were to be my
big brothers, were pretty much a good Many of them
were taken by the HIV and AIDS epidemic.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
They left early.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
You know, I grew up in a city right across
from Philly, which is where Joseph Beem was walking the streets.
I wasn't far from DC, growing up in Camden, New Jersey,
which is where Essex Mfield was right. Those are the
folk whose works resonate with me so much today, but
whose works also haunt me because they left here early,
(04:07):
so coming up really wanting direction and examples for how
I might not only sort of learn how to sort
of write a life on a page, a black queer
life on a page, but also like what it meant
to just to be a black boy growing up in
this world, Like I didn't have those elders to talk to.
(04:27):
And by the time I made it to the streets
thirteen streets specifically in Philly when I was super young, eighteen,
you know, so many of the generation that was in
the same sort of in the same age bracket of mine,
they were also dying around me as in like quick succession.
So I've always been, I think, haunted by the ghost
(04:49):
of accumulated loss. And if you think about it, there
were a whole bunch of black kids who at black queer,
trans non binary mentors because an epidemic that the government
woefully ignored took them away from us right. So what
(05:11):
that meant for me is that I became very adamant
about making sure that I could give to those that
were coming up alongside of me the very thing that
I desired and didn't always receive. I'll also say that
I came up in the age of social media, but
I was like pre social media too, so I got
both capacities to sort of like rock with you on Twitter,
(05:34):
even though I'm not on Twitter anymore, and like rock
with you in the streets, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
And I was of you.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Know, we come from this sort of blogger generation, this
generation of black queer folks who started using social media
as another tool in our arsenal. And I remember elder
what people would consider elders who wasn't really fucking with me.
They were they weren't really seeing me. I remember one
parton I'm not gonna say that name, and I hope
you listen. I love you down, but I remember you
(06:02):
said to me, what are you doing? This is what
this person said to me. What are you doing? Like,
what are you trying to do with your life? Like
what do you want to become? And I'm like, I'm
out here. I know I may be doing things different
than the ways that you know, my folk that came
before me might have been doing things. And by the way,
the work that I was doing in the world I
(06:23):
can only do because of the work that they did.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But there was a sudden sort of like inquisitiveness, a curiousness,
some hater raid that was coming from some of the
black gay men in my life, who I assumed thought
that I was getting some shine that they weren't getting.
That's my assumption. Other part of it was like some
of them were trying to holler, and I wasn't hollering back, right,
(06:49):
So I think some of it was a mix of both.
That was my walk. I wanted black gay big brothers
and mentors, and some people did show up for me,
but a good number folk did not, And I wanted
to return in the favor when it came time for
me to sort of like move in my own life.
(07:09):
What I will end with is big shout out to
the black women, particularly black lesbians who took me under
their wings, like Chryl Clark and Jackie Alexander and June
dal Burton and so Reverend Jackie, Like I mean, I
can go down the line with so many people black
women specifically who became the thing that I needed and
(07:29):
so many others.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
So yeah, that was a long way to get.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Back O you. I feel like I have also been
on the road less traveled at times. I feel like
I've also been questioned with a lot of the ways
that I've chosen to have my career. And I also
feel like I've also run into that mentality that comes
from community that's like.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Well, why you not me?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
When I hear you even say like you've had those
type of problems. One, it is affirming, confirming in a
lot of ways to be like, oh, like this is
validating me, because a lot of times we feel like
is it just me that has to deal with the
refusal of passing the baton from certain elders?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Sure, sure, which is a tough conversation, the intergenerational conversation,
as you stated, the HIV epidemic, which because you had
a whole generation kind of like removed in a sense,
and then you have these new kids who actually don't
really remember the epidemic.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I like to always say, like, I want to be
better practice at pointing a finger out myself. And one
of the lessons that I learned is I didn't do
enough early on to deeply learn about the many contributions
of the black gay men who came before me, Like
I wasn't curious enough. Now, don't get me wrong, Like
(08:46):
I knew that they existed, but like I know that
my growth came when I stopped for a second and
had to say, wait a minute, there were whole bunch
of people before me that did some really good ass work,
Like when I discovered Other Countries, which was a collective
(09:08):
of black queer writers, black gay men by men, non
binary folks, some lesbians would come, that would gather in
New York and published a few anthologies, and I went
to their works. It's like a side of Saint and
all these folk, and I'm like, y'all was saying the
things I'm saying ten times more beautiful, like more like
part of the way that I do feel like we
can hone the futures by honor in the past. And
(09:31):
I don't know if we've always always done a good
job of not only learning from once we've come the
life worlds of the people who didn't have the benefit
of a social media hashtag or site to sort of
proliferate their life stories, but we got to do the
what you did right with the book you just published. Right,
you went back, You went back to find out those
(09:52):
stories that were there if you go look for them,
and also to celebrate them, like making a sort of
life path that going to be youthful to anybody means
that I'm going to have to celebrate and bring my
people along with me, including the ones, especially the ones
who've done so much work and often have gone unnoticed
and visibilized, left to die in the archive and in
(10:15):
real life. And I do think our young folks have
an opportunity to be better at learning the foundations upon
which we stand, so we don't get up here and
act like the shit that we doing. Sometimes it's new
what you've done in your career is actually singular, George.
You've done some singular things in your career, right, we
(10:35):
can name that. But you have enough wisdom, I think,
to harken back and to pull those lessons forward into
the work that you're doing today, which I think is
squarely innovative.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I'ma do my thank he i'mma do my thing. I
did not come to play.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
I ain't got no living.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yes, the queer artist Spotlight of the week is a
song by one of my dear friends, Riley. It's called Lifeguard,
and here's a short clip. Stay tuned to the end
of the episode if you'd like to hear the full
track looking for a Life God.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Maybe you want to swim? Want to swim with the
light song.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And now back to my conversation with writer and producer
Darnell Moore. It's interesting because I remember one for those
who don't know, Like before I wrote All Boys Aren't
Blue and was just a baby journalist trying to find
my way, there were these phenomenal memoirs that all came
(11:46):
out around the same time by Darnell Michael Arsenal as
well as said there's a four person Casey Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Casey Gerald.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
There were these four amazing memoirs that all came out
around the same time, and I think it gave it
definitely gave me the inspiration to want to even tell
my own story and truth be told. Darnelle was one
of the first persons to ever even read my proposal.
Before it was called All Boys Are Blue, it was
called Smile, Black Boys Smile. I say that to say
that there's a behind the scenes that happens. I feel
(12:17):
when it comes to black queer folks that a lot
of people don't fully get to see. This is part
of why I wanted to do the podcast, whether it
is hey, can you look at this for me before
I have to send it to this publisher because you've
been through this process, whether it's the biggest thing I
have to deal with now is the sharing of numbers
behind the scenes so that we make sure that and
when people are like, what do you mean sharing numbers?
(12:38):
I mean like, this is what I got paid to
do this, don't accept less than this. This is when
I got paid to do that. Don't accept less than that.
Or hey, this is what they offered me, what do
you feel about it? And going to one another, I
feel like in writing Flamboyance about the Hall of Renaissance
and learning about the Niggarati, these things already were happening
(13:00):
and we just didn't know it. They were already meeting
and sharing numbers and sharing stories and doing that type
of work. So I guess my question to you would
be like, what is the importance of us continuing to
do that, that behind the scenes work, that, as we
like to call it, that secret black meeting work, and
how do we teach the newer generation, like, hey, y'all
(13:20):
are much stronger as a collective. All these opportunities y'all
are fighting for. Y'all shouldn't be fighting each other for them.
Y'all should be fighting the system that made it this
way for you to have to fight each other for them.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Listen, I always say that, you know, I'm not certain
that crabs in a barrel would fight so hard against
each other if it weren't for the barrel. Maybe they would,
But I think the sort of the idea still is
right to say that it isn't The focus isn't the
It's not the crab fighting the crab. The focus is
(13:52):
on the container, the containment, really the system that we
are all trying to work within. And if we could
and turn our attention from one another, our negative attention
from one another, to the system, and remember, there's enough
space for all of us, there's enough space for all
of our big creativity, for all of our love, and
(14:12):
that's a good starting place. But I'll also say, we
can't do to each other what the system does to us.
That's been a matra of mine. We can't do to
each other what the system does to us. I would
not be here literally sitting here talking to you. I
would not be breathing had there not been people to
come along in my life to hold me and to
(14:34):
make sure that I was good, to sew into me,
to teach me some things. And none of us exists
as an island.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Like.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Part of the power of black queer creativity and collectivity
is a fact that we got us like, we have
a responsibility I believe to not sort of replicate the
Americanized version of meritocracy and sort of rugged individualism and
turn towards a type of black care. And by the way,
(15:06):
like black people at large, I mean, one of the
things that we've been good at is not only caring
for each other, but caring for this nation. Like that's
what we do, and it just behooves us right to
offer each other.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I care.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And here's something, whenever I feel myself getting jealous, I've
got jealous throughout my career. I've set him back and gone,
why why is this happening for such and such? Or
I'm looking at somebody else's timeline and judging my own
timeline against it. And whenever we feel that way, I
would go in even deeper to help the person. Don't
(15:37):
get caught up in sort of egotistical, jealous, self centered
desires that you have. Like part of the way you
get what you deserve is by giving what you deserve.
And that's been my lesson, Like give the thing that
you want. And sometimes that means, yeah, it means I
(15:59):
need to sort of help you get your book done
and I'll get to mine.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I'll get to mine.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
No, that's interesting, and I agree, Like I've been jealous before.
Have I said this out loud publicly? Probably the reason
I wrote All Boys on Blue is because I was
mad that somebody else got a book deal before me.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
But you know what, it's what I'm gonna say, Like
it's important, Like it's important to say those things.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yes, I get jealous, We get jealous.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, you know, like I still bent out of shape
when I'm like looking at somebody else's timeline, I'm like, wait,
I still didn't get X project done.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
They got twenty.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Those are real feelings, These are real, you know, So
thank you for naming that.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, and now back to my conversation with author and
producer Darnell Moore. You have had several careers in your
(17:04):
life just from when I've known you, like it was like, oh,
Darnell's like a writer, that was like Darnell's an editor,
and then you went to Netflix and we all gagged.
So of course this created a new found vision of
us being like, oh wait a minute, like these spaces
are accessible to us, even when we come from worlds
that we don't think can mesh into those spaces. Could
(17:25):
you just tell us, you know, what it is is
your vision as a writer to see what we can
put forth in the television and film space. I always
am a true believer that, like, our work doesn't just
exist in one medium.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I was surprised too when I got you know, as
somebody who has also been heavily involved in organizing work,
I started to realize early on that a lot of
the loud talking and organizing I was doing was really
(18:00):
talking to the choir. And for me, arts and culture
has always been another modality, another route to get to
people that may not be sitting in the quote unquote peues.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So the last ten to fifteen years was really about
me having new tools at my disposal to do the
same work that I've always done, and that is using
whatever means we have necessary to help people change not
only their lives, but their hearts and their minds and
to undo what Balhiks call white supremacists hetero patriarchy. Right,
(18:35):
So going to Netflix was like an easy yes, especially
since the job was focused on supporting content organization, studio
operations of production, animation, studio marketing, publicity, comms, awards like
I've been on on film, both as talent and also
(18:55):
behind the fit, like behind the camera as a director
and producer. I like, I've I've done all of those things.
So when I went into it, my thought was it
was just another opportunity, a big one, nonetheless, to add
my worldview, my expertise, my team's worldviews are expertise to
a company that is at the helm it's a leader
(19:17):
in what it does in terms of streaming.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And I did that for four and a half years.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
It was amazing work to be able to have my
team consult on so maybe I don't know, two hundred
are so titles?
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Right?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
And sometimes that looks very small, like can you read
a script and give us notes? Sometimes it's like can
we bring you in to sort of train a showrunner?
We developed showrunner's trainings, all matter of things. So right now,
after having a break, I call it my respite, my
freedom moment from having left and Netflix.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Back at it.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You know, I'm working on a soon a work on
a screenplay, executive producing a feature doc on bal Hook's
executive producing a dot called White in America baal hook
Stock is being directed by Dream Hampton. Just got the
contract for my second book, which I'm finally finally get
back now that for years, so happily I'm signed with
(20:15):
with One World.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Ultimately.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
You know, what I feel for us as creators, Black
creators in this moment is that we should use whatever
capacities we have, don't feel restricted to be in any
one box, and what we don't know we can learn.
You know, I watched Titus Kafar's Exhibit and Forgiveness when
he showed his film at Gogozian. He never written up
(20:43):
a screenplay before he sat down. Over the course, I
think three or four months, wrote a screenplay and directed
his first film. It's a beautiful, stunning work, and it
just reminded me how much we can do when we
just believe even ourselves first and not wait for any
industry to put a check mark.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Next to the box of the thing that we want
to do, we can do it.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
So I guess what would be your fighting words to give.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
As encouragement to the I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I guess the future generations, the current generations, even people
who are in our generations who are just looking for
something to hold on to. What words can you give
as the fighting word? Mantra for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So it's twenty twenty five. We've just witnessed an administration
of white nationalists, Christian nationalists dot dot dot enter into
power in the White House on Martin Luther King day,
(22:00):
same day as an inauguration. So how does one respond,
especially how our black people to respond to a nation
state that we have put so much faith in. And
I always say, the fact that this country still exists
as is like without having a rage of black people
consume it says something about the reality that as far
(22:21):
as much harm has been done to us, our love
for this country and our faith in it still compels
us to do something like get out there and vote
writ large because of that hope that we have in
this country. I would say it, And I don't know
if I have the perfect sentence. But I tire of
(22:43):
releasing so much of my love and my attention to
white normativity to this country. And part of what I
want this year is for us to turn our attention
back to each other, reserve all of the energy that
we would have used to fight somebody, to tell somebody
(23:04):
that they're wrong, somebody walking by us with maga hats
on signifying that they're part of this sort of nationalist movement.
You know, old neighbors like I have who are on
Instagram every day mocking the quote unquote woke people.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I ain't giving them my energy like that.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I'm not putting my energy, investing my heart, my heart's
my mind into anybody that can't see me.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Let's turn to each other.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I'm serious, be angry, be upset, But by divesting our
energy like really in sort of like like white rage
and turnative into black love is how we build up
the necessary community and psychological space that we are going
to need to survive not only this four years, but
(23:53):
to survive has always been a fire that has been
America that we've been living through and moving through.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So that would be it turn to each other.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I love that divest your energy and white rage and
turn it into black love. I couldn't have said it
any more poetically myself. What do they say the three
emotions are, it's not really loving hate, it's loving fear.
Come on, and so that white rage oftentimes is because
of a fear. So we're able to turn that fear
into love. I think that's where we take back our power.
(24:25):
Darnell more everyone. Yeah, Like, there's no me without you,
no shade, and people just need to understand.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
You're no same. Yes, thank you same, thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
What is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal,
and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised
or misunderstood. I know anger. Today's quote is very near
and dear to my heart. It's from Joseph Being, an
author from Philadelphia who wrote short stories, essays, and poetry.
(25:06):
In the early nineteen eighties, Joseph Being worked in a
bookstore in Philadelphia called Giovanni's Room after the iconic James
Baldwin novel, but ironically, there weren't a lot of books
by black gay men there, so in nineteen eighty six,
Joseph Being published the first ever black gay anthology in America,
Gathering essays poems and fiction from authors in his community.
(25:28):
He said that he spoke for the brothers who's silence
has cost them their sanity. Joseph being passed away due
to complications from AIDS in nineteen ninety five. As a
person living with HIV, I understand what it means to
be silenced. It was people like Joseph being who fought
(25:50):
for our voices to be heard. It's people like him
who did the work that allows me to be alive
today and do the very very very very important work
of sharing my words, my story, and my truth with.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
The world and now in full.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
This is Lifeguard by Ry Alexander. Thanks for listening to
fighting words and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Looking for a life God time, Maybe wanna swim? Wanna
swim with the life soft look called a little my Gus.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
I'm on the show. Got a little my gus, called
a little some my God.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Some call a little some my gus. Got a little
some my God. Looking for some prayers. Pray for God
that that don'll think you but you feel in den
we can stack of bless the rangers who have been
the nineties learned how they'll be your play, you pay
my part of the part of me is just be
becoming in your favorite what's my name? Saying something like
(27:01):
my tone used to change it? Her good boys bit
his glass? How fast you want to hill? The baby
slipping off this ram.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
That's the thing in the buildings. I slip in with
the gas, never putting no air.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
Into your past.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I passed a couple of us on Tuesday, say.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I say that they for maybe lady bade the rescues
on the way for a life God, Maybe wanna swim,
wanna swim with the light soft b got a little sun,
my guts some on the show, got a little son,
my gus.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
Some got a little some my gus some God a
little some my gut something, got a little some.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
My gout some if you got your God to put
your up on my face.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
They said, there's no way. There's no Bacon like Mace,
No only couple you, there's no one.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
There's the way the way that Jay says, Oh say
you know there's nothing in the safe, Say take a
walk in the wild. If you walk with me, they
know what mister person's fouled by bout it. It's a while.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
You didn't get it anywhere. If you get up for
a spile, I would put it.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
If you say it, come around, baby, Why with these
If you choose it, you're gonna drown.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Travel your fade.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Choose it to the fade, treating to the putting, nothing
but the same for a lifeguard.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
T Baby, want to swim? Wanna swem with the light off.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
It's got a little so.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
I got some of the show.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Got a little so my God. Something got a little some,
my God. Some got a little some, My God. Something
got a little some, my God.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Some look at life, God, God, look at God.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Tell me what you look up and you look up
to baby guarded like thess in the the water. Let
it down, down, Baby, take the top of the guitar.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Take it down.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Baby wants to messing with the doz. Probably feels like
you gonna swim and should probably took a polly. Probably
see me he has an option.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Probaly see me as you likes to probaly see me as.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
You're looking for a lifeguard.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Maybe you want to swim, and you want to swim
with the light song got a little some, my God,
something keeping for a life God God. Maybe want to swim,
want to Swim with the Light song, got a little some,
My got some, the show got a little some, My God,
(29:36):
some got a little some.
Speaker 5 (29:39):
My got some, got a little some, My got something, got.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
A little some, I Got some.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaky
Puchi Guar Song with Adam Pinkss.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
And Brick Cats for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
The theme song was written and composed by cole Vos
Banbianna and Myself. Original music by Colevas. This episode was
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our iHeart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rape, Fighting Words,
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