February 11, 2025 • 37 mins
George is joined by Angelica Ross, the actress, musician, businesswoman and activist known for her iconic roles on Pose and American Horror Story. Angelica talks about holding her head high and keeping her integrity in Hollywood, or as Angelica calls it, "the industry of pick-mes." This episode’s Queer Artist Spotlight is on Angelica’s song “Grand Theft Lover.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
What I realized is that as an actor, as an
artist and a creative, they'll let you focus on storytelling,
and you can tell the story of Martin Luther King
or of a revolutionary, but you cannot be the revolutionary.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You cannot wield that power.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
At least that's what they tell you, and I told them,
I'll be damned.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
That's Angelica Ross.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
She's an actress, musician, businesswoman, and downright badass. You might
know her from the TV series Pose or American Horror Story.
If you haven't seen those, prepare for some spoilers and
some behind the.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Scenes t now.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
I originally met Angelica on Twitter, because we're not calling
it x, but our first interaction actually happened when I
was walking through Harlem one day and I heard someone yell,
my name is that George Johnson and I turned around
and they're she was Angela Cross and I ended up
going inside the Little Club and we literally hung out
(01:06):
that whole night, got to know each other, and since
then we have been friends.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
She's like a sister.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I have watched her over the years use her voice
to fight for trans issues, for LGBTQ issues. She's been
unapologetic about it. She's been bold about it, She's been
brave about it, and she just doesn't take no for
an answer. And that's why we love her. Singing in
(01:36):
the heavy Handy, What.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
The world take a sup of?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Brandy?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I spoke to guy, you know what the plan is?
Or became a Latin? You know one does understand me.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is also the
second most bamed book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
A show where we take you to the front of
the culture wars with the people who are using their
words to make change and refuse to be silenced. Today's
guest Angelicaross.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
What's good? Were ready to fight? I'm ready to fight?
Is that what I thought it was?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Oh? This is fighting words? Okay, I'll put the hammer back.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well, let's be very clear.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Okay, Candy, Let's let's be very clear, because you fight
with your words.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But before we get into the fight, end of the words,
I do.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I think the world sees us in one way, social
media sees us in another way, even people in community
viewers in one way. But sometimes we don't get the
opportunity to actually say, like who we are, So who
is Angelic Ross?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
That is an interesting question.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I will say that I have found myself to be
just as a feminine goddess. But at the same time
I embrace the day them of it all because I've
just gotten to know myself beyond my body as a
trans woman in this body that is discovering my own
(03:02):
value in a place that says I have none, and
you know, and also they're realizing that your journey is
not about you alone, and that it's going to affect
so many different people and change so many different people's lives.
So for me, I'm now kind of wrapping myself up
summarizing myself as somebody who can do both. And what
I mean by doing both is someone who can live
(03:23):
a creative life and someone who also can take responsibility
for the communities that I belong to.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
You've been through many iterations of life, Zener. We're once
of the Navy, which I think you know what. It
may come to a surprise to a lot of people, right,
but could you just kind of give us a little
bit about like how you navigated like the transitions of life.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
One of the things that came up first of mine.
Was just thinking about my report card, just growing up
in school and just how it always said I talked
too much. I was a disturbance in class. I was
just always the one growing up that just seemed they
needed to watch because I might not pull my life together,
(04:11):
I might not find my way. They knew from get
go that I was starring in every school, musical, community theater,
played jazz choir, church choir. I was talented, was doing
all that, and that's what I wanted to do. But
my father, as a black man, you know, my mom
struggling working as a teacher. You know, they were just like,
(04:32):
you're not going to get anywhere a singer. YO should
have could have woodas you know, like Cherry Lee Raffo,
Like you're not.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Gonna be singing. YO should have could have wooders.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And so you know, they made me study like business
and things like that.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So my life growing up has been this weird mix
of business and creativity.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I didn't want the business part, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Thinking the Lord that my daddy made me focus on business,
because baby, that is what's keeping me. These still lights
still on in these bills still paid, because.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I am a business. I am my own business.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
For those who don't know, she plays the iconic role
of Candy on Pose. One of my favorite things that
I do know that you did a lot of ad
libs for those scenes, and how you would sure did
the scene once the way they wanted do the scene
once the way you wanted, and oftentimes the way you
did it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Was the one that they chose, the one that they chose.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
But how hard was that fight, specifically for that character.
You know, you also wanted to make sure that the
voice that was given to this character wasn't just from
the writing room, but was also coming from you who
was actually going through the lived experiences of her. And
there's so many other black trans women specifically face.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It was an interesting experience because before going into Pose,
I was going in with a lot of experience. You know,
it wasn't my first time at the rodeo. I'd done
a couple of you know, roles before, not a series
regular role.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So I was just.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Doing Clause before I got to Pose, and then also
with Down on CBS and Transparent and doing a few
other things. And so I heard through the grapevine that
my name was circling around the rooms very early on
and they were auditioning for an electure. I felt like
was just I wasn't ready to play the mother yet
because the skined, you know, everything was just still giving
(06:27):
you know, young, young, petit lit things. So I don't
want it daughter. I just needed to be the daughter, right, Yeah.
But the situation was is when I got the role
and got into the role of Candy. You know, the
great thing was Ryan Murphy wrote that role after meeting me,
so it was something that I didn't have to I
wasn't nervous about because it was like he wrote it
from my embodiment of how I, you know, kind of
(06:49):
showed up to the audition and so I got to
lean into that. But it was to be honest, it
was communicated to me very quickly that this show is
not about you. There are our main characters and this
is where you fit on the call sheet. So piped down,
don't make too much you know, noise, because you know,
(07:12):
it was just like here I come, I am not
just an actor. I'm an act to this, I'm an
advocate and I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
All the things.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
And so like I come in and I go into
the trailer of this all black show, and everybody white
in the hair and makeup trailer, and I'm just like, okay,
so to start.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
With, and it's just like but they're like, no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
No, no, no, no, no no, You're the only one
who is wearing the kinky hair. Me and India had
the most textured hair on the set. We were speaking
up a lot when it came to the fact that
we had white people doing our hair and it was
just not looking right and it wasn't given what it
(07:52):
was supposed to be giving. I was just in tears
one time, like when I was performing, because I was
just really upset with the hairstylist and what theions he
was making. I just remember, we're feeling that sand and
the next day Ryan Murphy's on set and Ryan Murphy's like, oh, Angelica,
He's like, what happened to the other hair that you
were wearing? And I was like, I wanted the hair
that he was talking about. And again, it was always
(08:14):
so many times we're in these decisions where white people
who have just had the benefit of being in the
room longer think that they know what's better than the
people who have actually lived the story longer, who have
been in those environments. So there was a lot of
challenges I realized I was going to have to deal
with very early on. But if it were not for
my Buddhist practice, I definitely would not have gotten through
(08:38):
chanting nomio horing get killed and getting through like and
I would kind of like a turtle, go into my body,
into my shell, because I knew I did not have
the privilege everybody else had to cause a scene and
to do all the things. They already told me to
sit down there and be quiet. So that's what I did,
is shut my fat ass up, sent my ass.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
In the corner. It's hard to imagine you being quiet.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Well, you know, it was an advocate for self.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
But when it comes to work though, when it comes
to work, and when I understand what the situation is
and I want that check to clear, baby, would you
say action? Would you say cut? Where's my trailer? Okay,
but it was a profound experience for me doing Candy's
(09:25):
final season because there's that moment where she's talking in
the in the ballroom and she's telling her tale basically
that I am somebody you know, you the only one
who been in the room the case that I got
something to offer I got talent, you know, and she's
trying to be seen in this space.
Speaker 5 (09:41):
And so I just remember walking out.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Of the ballroom when Candy has that Madonna ponytail on
and everything, and she's like, you're gonna, you know, miss me,
or whatever the case she's saying when she walks out
the door. I walk out the door, the door is
closed behind me, the camera's on the other side of
the door. I I couldn't breathe. I started hyperventilating. I
(10:04):
was just like I was doing like this with our
chest and they were like, are you okay, And I'm like, yeah,
you know, I just got.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Off done acting, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So I felt like I was fine, and I was like, no,
I know, I'll be okay, And all of a sudden,
I just start crying. And I honestly didn't know where
first where it was coming from. And then I realized
that I had been riding Candy's emotions like a wave.
I had been surfing her emotions and as an actor, like,
(10:35):
that's what it's like. So this whole time of being
told you're not pretty enough, that you're not this, and
you're not that, and to also have a sort of
real life experience that. Listen, we go to the red carpet,
we go to the premieres. My budget ain't the same
as the other girl's budgets. So my stylist thank y'all
for doing a look taking a little bit less because
(10:58):
they was giving me a little bit less to hit
that carpet you're under, I'm saying. So, one thing I
knew for sure was that so many people in that
ballroom were gonna miss Candy. Yeah, but we're the same
ones who were telling her to shut up, and we're
the same ones telling her, old girl, go sit down somewhere.
And what I knew was that after that was all
said and done, is that Angelica Ross would also have
(11:20):
that experience that where I would speak up and be
saying the thing everybody else knows the truth, but y'all
telling me to go sit down somewhere, and I end
up suffering consequences because I'm the one in the margins
speaking up that think that she has the privilege like
some white actress that's sitting on a stack. No, she
ain't got it, you know, she just got her integrity.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
And now our Queer Artist Spotlight of the Week. This
week's song is by our very own guest, a jelic Ross.
It's called Grand Theft Lover. Here's a short clip. You
can hear the full song at the end of the episode.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Because I'm always.
Speaker 6 (12:18):
You.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
And now back to my conversation with actress and activists.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And jelic Ross.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
I remember being on Twitter, like right around they did
Candy's death, and I'm watching everybody be pissed all for
the most part.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Like why would they do this?
Speaker 4 (12:51):
And then the post goes up about you going into
American horror story and part of your experience there was
an American heart story.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, I'll just say this, it was just very all
all of it.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You know, you go in and find out how just
Hollywood you just.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I thought I knew and I thought I.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Was prepared, you know, for all the things, but like
you truly just are not. Everything was so calculated in
a way that I just it's hard, you know, it's
hard to unpack. There was just a lot of miscalculations.
You know, in storytelling, we always say we want you
to show us, don't tell us, you know, And so
(13:32):
towards the end of Candy's storyline, there was a lot
of telling and not a lot of showing and all
of a sudden, Candy's.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Are sex worker.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
She got HIV, like all this what she got down
a pig lig You know, it was just like all
of a sudden, It's just like all this stuff that
doesn't really we had no time to kind of process,
and you know, just a lot of the energy was
around Emmy sweep weeks. You know, I just know that
that was a lot of the conversation was around ooh,
this would be great for the Emmy's time and blah
blah blah whatever. And yet when that time came, him alone,
(14:00):
not a single campaign was done for me. Not a
single dollar was spent on an Emmy campaign for me,
and I just almost felt used. Ry Murphy was giving
me my offer for American Horror Story. He gave me
that after telling me that I was leaving Poles. So
it wasn't like I had already had that lined up
(14:22):
and it landed the job and then they decided to
write me off. No, this was him giving me a
job after writing me off sort of situation. And so
you know, he was telling me he was writing this
character Nurse Rita. It was going to be all exciting.
He was telling me all about this before I had
finished filming. So when I finished filming and business affairs
(14:43):
contacted me to offer me the deal. I looked at
the paperwork and I said no, thank you, and they
were like, excuse me, And I was like, yeah, no,
this is not enough money. I need X amount of dollars.
They were like, oh, we can't do that, blah blah blah.
Oh okay, well just tell Ryan Murphy. I really appreciate
the offer, but I'm not going to be able to
(15:04):
do it. And I don't think they expected my Black
Trands self to be turning down another job that might
have been around the same pay. I was getting that pose,
but I'm not trying to go from the same thing
to the same pay. You're in the Sun, but also
now here, I am about to go onto American Horror
(15:25):
Story as a series regular, And the last time I checked,
when I in this script and the way that things
are running, I'm here the same amount of hours they are.
So if I'm putting in the same work that they
putting in, baby, you're gonna have to pay me like
you paying the rest of these people. Now, I don't
know if they paid me like the rest of them people,
but they did up it up several thousand dollars, you know,
(15:46):
per episodes, you know. So I was able to increase
my pay. But the only reason why I was able
to do that was for two reasons. One, I was
ready to walk away, truly. And the only reason why
I'm telling you this is actual truth is because the
reality is I'm a scaredy cat, and the reality is
I did not want to do horror. I had never
(16:09):
seen the show. And so when my friend Amaya Scott
got me on to American Horror storybody get me hooked
on the Witch's season, on the Coven season, Yeah, that's
when I was like, Okay, maybe I can get through this.
But I knew at the end of the day, spiritually speaking,
for a lot of reasons, this was not something I
wanted to do. So I was willing to push a
(16:31):
little harder on the negotiations.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And let it go.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And I think again, that is kind of the energy
you have to have with a lot of these things,
because they try to put you into a situation where
they think that you can't do nothing but say yes,
or that you have no other choice. And I want
people to know I always have a choice. And I
can always choose me.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
What I love about you the most is you're one
of those people who speaks even if your voice quivers,
like even if you know there could be a repercussion
or ramification or And there are times where I look
at you and I'm like, damn, remind yourself of that,
(17:12):
Like speak even if it's shaped like speak even if
the voice is shaky, even if you're nervous, even if
the hands are shaking, like, you still have a voice
and you still have to speak. And I kind of
want to get into the Emma Roberts situation.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Long story short is just that listen going on the
American horstory. Like I said, I had the goal to
negotiate my salary, to demand respect amongst my peers, and
so I was also trying to also just be a
good guest. I was like trying to make it so
(17:48):
that this could just I could continue to being invited
back to.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Do stuff like this and what have you.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
And so I wasn't responding to every little thing that
was a little microgres this that and the third the
cattiness and the stuff or whatever. And the reality was
is that Emma was like causing it on set for everybody.
She was making everybody's life a living hell. On set,
it was just always drama and arguing and stuff going
(18:16):
on and like mind games, and so I will watch
some of these power dynamics, and sometimes I didn't know
what I was watching. I didn't know if I was
seeing a mean girl or if I was seeing a
girl who has been in the industry for so long around.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
All these men, you know, telling them, no, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Doing this, this is what's going to happen.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
And so I'm taking notes like, well, god, I'll be there,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Like is that how that worked?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
But that only worked where you know your father is
a big agent or somebody is your auntie is Julia Roberts.
You know, you got all this kind of stuff going on,
And so all the other cast members are coming in,
We're getting our wigs, touch up, our makeup, you know,
just at different times, and she's not in there, and
I'm hearing these stories and they just just telling me,
(19:05):
they telling me all this stuff, and it's like not one,
not two. It's like almost everybody on set like I'm serious.
And so I felt lucky almost that I was not
experiencing a brun of it, you know. And so then
our final day of filming with each other, she waited
till the final day to cause it. And so basically
(19:25):
she's supposed to get aged up and makeup.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
We're both are.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
She's not letting the makeup artists age her that much
in the screen with me or whatever. Okay, I still
look younger than you and I'm older than you, but okay,
so you know they're aging up, they're aging us up
or whatever, and she don't want to do all that.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
She's just being kind of a little bit of problem.
So she comes back.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
We're about to go film, and she's like, oh yeah,
I'm ready to I was like, oh yeah, you look rested,
Sean Angelica's being mean, And of course I wasn't being mean.
I was just saying, you look rested, look old, you know.
So he John's like, okay, ladies, enough already, you know,
let's get back to work.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So we're filming in a house.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
So the house has this like hallway with a mirror
at the end of the hallway or whatever. So like
she turns around and as she's turning around, she like
takes her little jacket to cover her mouth and he goes, okay, ladies,
you know, let's get back to work, and she goes,
don't you mean, lady and turns around, and she turns
around towards a mirror. So I'm standing behind her and
I'm looking at her dead in the face through the mirror, like,
(20:32):
what did you just say? And she just kind of
walked off, smirking, And I just stood there for a
second because I was just like trying to process lady
like as in one of us, like as in wait,
and I'm not trying to because if I go too
(20:53):
far down this rabbit hole, I'm the one that's gonna.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Get fired, yep, because I've heard stories.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
And rumors already about you get into a little situation
where her she not the one that's gonna be reprimanded.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
It's gonna be you, right, So I shut my ass up.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
But the reason why I finally said something about the
set up and the racism on set as well as
Emma Robberts, the reason why I finally said something is
because of how Ryan Murphy treated me.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Welcome back to Fighting Words.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
I'm Georgia Johnson, and I'm talking to actress, activists and
musician Angelica Ross.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
When I finished filming season eleven of American Horror Story.
Before I even finished filming it, he had already been
talking about us doing this all black American Horror Story season.
He had already alerted the directors of what was happening
next and whatnot. Angelical, You're gonna have about a four
week break and then we're jumping into the next season.
So this ain't just me thinking somebody promised me something
(22:07):
one day, We're gonna write a show for you, or
I got this role maybe in mind for you. This
was everyone was on alert. This was the next season,
what we were doing. Scripts were written, and that we
were on a couple week break. Then basically they said,
Ryan Murphy's got so many shows going on right now
and he's just doing too much. We need to break
this show and do it at the top of that
(22:30):
next following year.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
What have you.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So I was like, okay, fine, So I'm under contract
with them. I can't take any other job unless they
approve it, right, so lo and behold who calls during
that break time Marvel.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I have been auditioning for Marvel for three or four.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Years, and anybody who has gone to Marvel will tell
you that's kind of how it goes. You auditioned for
several years, you don't even know what parts you're auditioning
for because it's so secretive, and then one day they
call you and say, what's your availability? Right, And that's
what they did. They called me. They said, we've now
(23:11):
got this role for you. What's your availability to do
the role? Are you available between this date and this date?
I told my agent, tell them I'm available. He said,
we can't. I said, what you mean we can't. We
got to go through American Horsory first. Well, they haven't
given us any dates about when we're coming back, and
blah blah blah. Okay, well we got to go to
business affairs. They go to business affairs. Business affairs says, no,
(23:34):
she's coming back to the next season. As so far
as we know, she's coming back to next season. So
that happened. I have emails of Marvel checking back a
couple times on my availability. Come February, almost March now comes,
they started to pull the contracts. I call Business faarirs
again and Business Affairs like, oh no, we're actually pulling
(23:56):
the contracts for that right now, and your contract's not
in here.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
You won't be coming back to season eleven.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
That's how I found out, not Ryan Murphy who swears
I'm his black friend on speed dial. He didn't text me,
he didn't give me a heads up. So this just changed.
And now I'm out of a job. So now I
don't know what the tea is and why he's made
that decision, but I don't say anything because I still
(24:22):
need to work and figure things out. So for months
I say nothing, and for months no jobs. And then
I get an offer, a low ball offer to start
on Broadway. My team negotiates to offer and asks for
more money. They won't give us any more money, but
I gotta work. So now I'm on Broadway doing eight
(24:45):
shows a week as the main character, making ten thousand
dollars a week eight shows. That's just way below what
I make, but I had to take it to pay
the bills. You understand, I'm saying, I'm a black trans
woman on SAG I got to make certain amount of
money or I don't have no health insurance. Now I'm
a black trans one with no health insurance, which I
(25:05):
am right now, black trads one with no health insurance.
So for me, it was never about Ryan Murphy handing
me nothing because I've worked and earned everything and even
sometimes wrote the own words that God applauded. My whole
thing is just treat me fair enough that if I
wasn't coming back, let me go out of my contract
so that I could have taken another job and gone
(25:26):
on with Marvel. So I took some time to process
all of that, and I just told myself, Okay, this
is what's not gonna happen, because it was really just
like Elphaba and the Whiz and Yeah and Wicked or
the Wiz and the Whiz. I looked at the Wiz
and I was like, you have no real power. You
(25:47):
need all of this show, the lights, and you need
all of this. My voice is way powerful than your
most strongest light you have on that set.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
You have no real power.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And when I realized, I said, what I told myself
was what will not happen going forward is we won't
be able to walk in the same rooms without them
knowing the truth. You won't be able to hold your
head up as high as I do mine without people
knowing the truth. So I was willing to burn that bridge.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
We oftentimes have to share a community with white ware
people specifically who get to have the ability to use
their marginalization of being queer while also wielding their power
over us and over many others in a way that
doesn't advance us. In many ways, as you said, can
(26:44):
block us and suppress us. But I think the beauty
of you being able to always tell your truth is
the fact that even if you stop this character, even
if you stopped this role, even if this happened, and
this happened, you never stop, Angelica Ross.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Absolutely, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I most think most heartbreaking thing about the experience for
me was to go through a masterclass of learning what
a pick me is and learning that I'm in the
industry of pick me because you go on an audition
and you're literally saying, please pick me, But you don't
(27:27):
have to have the you know, certain characteristics of a
pick me who's willing to step over anybody to get there.
But what I realized was when I was trying to
tell my truth about what I experienced, I realized behind
me was a choir of pick mees and form my
own community. That was like, girl, I don't know why
(27:47):
you saying something. You should have just shut up. That
was all about people wanting to be in my position
and thinking that they could make a better decision than
I in my position. But the truth of the matter
at the end of the day is that you are
not in my position. I am way more powerful than this,
and I know right now that this is a spiritual test.
(28:08):
The reason why I know this is because I can
see and sit in front all this glitz and glimmer
and gowns and houses and money and cars and all
of that. And I'm so glad that you show this
to me because the way my spirituality is shown is
set up. It's always a reflection to let me know
that nothing outside of myself is more valuable than me.
(28:28):
So thank you for showing to me. Thank you for
showing me that I had access to that, because now
I know that I'm actually even more valuable than that.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
The fine thing I always like to end on.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
I always choose like three words that I try to
live by each year. What would be like your phrase
for twenty twenty five that you are.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Going to live?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I'm just getting started.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You hate that.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Remember everybody, don't compare yourself to others.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Remember sometimes your beginnings or where other people are already
at their middles and their ends to always remember you
can start at any time. I love that I'm just
getting started, because that's very powerful. Because if you already
accumulated all the accolades of someone like an Angelica rossing
for them to tell you, oh, maybe I'm just getting started,
then you know there's a lot of power that is
(29:23):
to come.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Absolutely. Thank you for having me, George.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yes, thank you for being here. Angelica, so powerful, so moving.
I love you so much.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I love you too.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
History isn't something you look back at and say it
was inevitable. It happens because people make decisions that are
sometimes very impulsive and of the moment, but those moments
are cumulative realities.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
That quote today comes from the mighty Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Johnson.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
I oftentimes tell people when we talk ab Malcolm X
and we talk about Martin Luther King, we are missing
the third m.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
And that third M is Marsha P. Johnson.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
She was one of the leaders during the Stonewall Riots
of nineteen sixty nine, which was the catalyst for the
LGBTQ rights movement in the United States and across the world.
Most people think that the Stonewall Riots were played.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
They weren't.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
The riots started after the New York City Police Department
did a raid on the Stonewall Inn. Back then, they
used to do what was called genital checks to determine
if people were trans or if they were generally conforming.
That night, the people who were in the Stonewall Inn
had had enough. One person in particular, her name was Stormy,
decided that she was going to fight back against the police.
(30:45):
As they were dragging her out, she yelled, why isn't
anyone doing anything? And it activated all of the queer
people who were there that night, and specifically Miss Major
Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Johnson.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Despite many contrasting stories, Marsha P. Johnson is known as
the person who threw the first brick at Stonewall. She
was a fighter, she was an activist, but most importantly,
she was a human. Her reality was police raids. Her
reality was her life being threatened. But she knew that
(31:20):
liberation only could exist if she and others in community
decided to fight back. It was the impulsive nature of
that evening that led to five Knights of riots in
New York City. She's the reminder that there are oftentimes
when we make history when we're not trying to make
(31:40):
history we are actually just trying to survive. So here's
how the song Grand Theft Lover by our guests Angelic
Ross came together.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I wrote Grand Theft Lover because I was taking online
songwriting class with her, the songwriter, the artist her, So
we had to write two songs as far as our
homework was concerned, one from a chre progression and one
just starting from the lyrics. So I thought about Grand
Theft Lover. I don't know how this came to me. Oh,
(32:18):
I thought Grand Theft Auto that, I thought the game.
I thought Grand Theft Lover, and then I just started
seeing this PlayStation controller in my head with the square
and the triangle and the X and all of that.
So when I wrote the hook square one in a
love triangle, doing circles, still playing games with my ex a,
(32:42):
Grand Theft Lover took my heart and ran for cover.
But the game ain't over yet.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
The game ain't.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Over yet, And I have a queer rapper in there
name Monday, who is an amazing, phenomenal rapper. So if
you haven't heard Grand Theft Lover already, I don't know
what you're waiting for. And plus go download all my
other music too, and here's the song in full.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Thanks for listening to Fighting Words and join us next
time for another round.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Clear one, Ready.
Speaker 7 (33:13):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I know your news.
Speaker 6 (33:19):
Because I'm always stensive dead. You think Clue came up down,
(33:39):
She come up up down, down left right and left
left she comes sque.
Speaker 7 (34:01):
A crand love the nal b a No, you want
to play this gony.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
Witness when there no wish on boser biggs dumb dumb.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's.
Speaker 6 (34:40):
Ve dumb dumdum, it's.
Speaker 7 (34:44):
Che swam love, joy service, lay games and mass love concas.
Speaker 6 (35:05):
No boon because should make no, I.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Don't think it's don't even with the dog bo I
do niggas.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Lokiga bay immediately when you know you know.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
South, it goes.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
Streal with me.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Raby made lad.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
Well, should I look, don't shout and jets friend love
concres nouse should make no relation.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaky
pu Gi Guar Song with Adam Pinkins and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by cole Vos, Bambianna and myself. Original music by
(36:43):
cole Vos. This episode was edited and scored by Max
Michael Miller. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel.
Following rape fighting words Wherever you get your Podcast
What I realized is that as an actor, as an
artist and a creative, they'll let you focus on storytelling,
and you can tell the story of Martin Luther King
or of a revolutionary, but you cannot be the revolutionary.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You cannot wield that power.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
At least that's what they tell you, and I told them,
I'll be damned.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
That's Angelica Ross.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
She's an actress, musician, businesswoman, and downright badass. You might
know her from the TV series Pose or American Horror Story.
If you haven't seen those, prepare for some spoilers and
some behind the.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Scenes t now.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
I originally met Angelica on Twitter, because we're not calling
it x, but our first interaction actually happened when I
was walking through Harlem one day and I heard someone yell,
my name is that George Johnson and I turned around
and they're she was Angela Cross and I ended up
going inside the Little Club and we literally hung out
(01:06):
that whole night, got to know each other, and since
then we have been friends.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
She's like a sister.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I have watched her over the years use her voice
to fight for trans issues, for LGBTQ issues. She's been
unapologetic about it. She's been bold about it, She's been
brave about it, and she just doesn't take no for
an answer. And that's why we love her. Singing in
(01:36):
the heavy Handy, What.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
The world take a sup of?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Brandy?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I spoke to guy, you know what the plan is?
Or became a Latin? You know one does understand me.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is also the
second most bamed book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
A show where we take you to the front of
the culture wars with the people who are using their
words to make change and refuse to be silenced. Today's
guest Angelicaross.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
What's good? Were ready to fight? I'm ready to fight?
Is that what I thought it was?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Oh? This is fighting words? Okay, I'll put the hammer back.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well, let's be very clear.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Okay, Candy, Let's let's be very clear, because you fight
with your words.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But before we get into the fight, end of the words,
I do.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I think the world sees us in one way, social
media sees us in another way, even people in community
viewers in one way. But sometimes we don't get the
opportunity to actually say, like who we are, So who
is Angelic Ross?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
That is an interesting question.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I will say that I have found myself to be
just as a feminine goddess. But at the same time
I embrace the day them of it all because I've
just gotten to know myself beyond my body as a
trans woman in this body that is discovering my own
(03:02):
value in a place that says I have none, and
you know, and also they're realizing that your journey is
not about you alone, and that it's going to affect
so many different people and change so many different people's lives.
So for me, I'm now kind of wrapping myself up
summarizing myself as somebody who can do both. And what
I mean by doing both is someone who can live
(03:23):
a creative life and someone who also can take responsibility
for the communities that I belong to.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
You've been through many iterations of life, Zener. We're once
of the Navy, which I think you know what. It
may come to a surprise to a lot of people, right,
but could you just kind of give us a little
bit about like how you navigated like the transitions of life.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
One of the things that came up first of mine.
Was just thinking about my report card, just growing up
in school and just how it always said I talked
too much. I was a disturbance in class. I was
just always the one growing up that just seemed they
needed to watch because I might not pull my life together,
(04:11):
I might not find my way. They knew from get
go that I was starring in every school, musical, community theater,
played jazz choir, church choir. I was talented, was doing
all that, and that's what I wanted to do. But
my father, as a black man, you know, my mom
struggling working as a teacher. You know, they were just like,
(04:32):
you're not going to get anywhere a singer. YO should
have could have woodas you know, like Cherry Lee Raffo,
Like you're not.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Gonna be singing. YO should have could have wooders.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And so you know, they made me study like business
and things like that.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So my life growing up has been this weird mix
of business and creativity.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I didn't want the business part, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Thinking the Lord that my daddy made me focus on business,
because baby, that is what's keeping me. These still lights
still on in these bills still paid, because.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I am a business. I am my own business.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
For those who don't know, she plays the iconic role
of Candy on Pose. One of my favorite things that
I do know that you did a lot of ad
libs for those scenes, and how you would sure did
the scene once the way they wanted do the scene
once the way you wanted, and oftentimes the way you
did it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Was the one that they chose, the one that they chose.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
But how hard was that fight, specifically for that character.
You know, you also wanted to make sure that the
voice that was given to this character wasn't just from
the writing room, but was also coming from you who
was actually going through the lived experiences of her. And
there's so many other black trans women specifically face.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It was an interesting experience because before going into Pose,
I was going in with a lot of experience. You know,
it wasn't my first time at the rodeo. I'd done
a couple of you know, roles before, not a series
regular role.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So I was just.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Doing Clause before I got to Pose, and then also
with Down on CBS and Transparent and doing a few
other things. And so I heard through the grapevine that
my name was circling around the rooms very early on
and they were auditioning for an electure. I felt like
was just I wasn't ready to play the mother yet
because the skined, you know, everything was just still giving
(06:27):
you know, young, young, petit lit things. So I don't
want it daughter. I just needed to be the daughter, right, Yeah.
But the situation was is when I got the role
and got into the role of Candy. You know, the
great thing was Ryan Murphy wrote that role after meeting me,
so it was something that I didn't have to I
wasn't nervous about because it was like he wrote it
from my embodiment of how I, you know, kind of
(06:49):
showed up to the audition and so I got to
lean into that. But it was to be honest, it
was communicated to me very quickly that this show is
not about you. There are our main characters and this
is where you fit on the call sheet. So piped down,
don't make too much you know, noise, because you know,
(07:12):
it was just like here I come, I am not
just an actor. I'm an act to this, I'm an
advocate and I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
All the things.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
And so like I come in and I go into
the trailer of this all black show, and everybody white
in the hair and makeup trailer, and I'm just like, okay,
so to start.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
With, and it's just like but they're like, no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
No, no, no, no, no no, You're the only one
who is wearing the kinky hair. Me and India had
the most textured hair on the set. We were speaking
up a lot when it came to the fact that
we had white people doing our hair and it was
just not looking right and it wasn't given what it
(07:52):
was supposed to be giving. I was just in tears
one time, like when I was performing, because I was
just really upset with the hairstylist and what theions he
was making. I just remember, we're feeling that sand and
the next day Ryan Murphy's on set and Ryan Murphy's like, oh, Angelica,
He's like, what happened to the other hair that you
were wearing? And I was like, I wanted the hair
that he was talking about. And again, it was always
(08:14):
so many times we're in these decisions where white people
who have just had the benefit of being in the
room longer think that they know what's better than the
people who have actually lived the story longer, who have
been in those environments. So there was a lot of
challenges I realized I was going to have to deal
with very early on. But if it were not for
my Buddhist practice, I definitely would not have gotten through
(08:38):
chanting nomio horing get killed and getting through like and
I would kind of like a turtle, go into my body,
into my shell, because I knew I did not have
the privilege everybody else had to cause a scene and
to do all the things. They already told me to
sit down there and be quiet. So that's what I did,
is shut my fat ass up, sent my ass.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
In the corner. It's hard to imagine you being quiet.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Well, you know, it was an advocate for self.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
But when it comes to work though, when it comes
to work, and when I understand what the situation is
and I want that check to clear, baby, would you
say action? Would you say cut? Where's my trailer? Okay,
but it was a profound experience for me doing Candy's
(09:25):
final season because there's that moment where she's talking in
the in the ballroom and she's telling her tale basically
that I am somebody you know, you the only one
who been in the room the case that I got
something to offer I got talent, you know, and she's
trying to be seen in this space.
Speaker 5 (09:41):
And so I just remember walking out.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Of the ballroom when Candy has that Madonna ponytail on
and everything, and she's like, you're gonna, you know, miss me,
or whatever the case she's saying when she walks out
the door. I walk out the door, the door is
closed behind me, the camera's on the other side of
the door. I I couldn't breathe. I started hyperventilating. I
(10:04):
was just like I was doing like this with our
chest and they were like, are you okay, And I'm like, yeah,
you know, I just got.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Off done acting, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So I felt like I was fine, and I was like, no,
I know, I'll be okay, And all of a sudden,
I just start crying. And I honestly didn't know where
first where it was coming from. And then I realized
that I had been riding Candy's emotions like a wave.
I had been surfing her emotions and as an actor, like,
(10:35):
that's what it's like. So this whole time of being
told you're not pretty enough, that you're not this, and
you're not that, and to also have a sort of
real life experience that. Listen, we go to the red carpet,
we go to the premieres. My budget ain't the same
as the other girl's budgets. So my stylist thank y'all
for doing a look taking a little bit less because
(10:58):
they was giving me a little bit less to hit
that carpet you're under, I'm saying. So, one thing I
knew for sure was that so many people in that
ballroom were gonna miss Candy. Yeah, but we're the same
ones who were telling her to shut up, and we're
the same ones telling her, old girl, go sit down somewhere.
And what I knew was that after that was all
said and done, is that Angelica Ross would also have
(11:20):
that experience that where I would speak up and be
saying the thing everybody else knows the truth, but y'all
telling me to go sit down somewhere, and I end
up suffering consequences because I'm the one in the margins
speaking up that think that she has the privilege like
some white actress that's sitting on a stack. No, she
ain't got it, you know, she just got her integrity.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
And now our Queer Artist Spotlight of the Week. This
week's song is by our very own guest, a jelic Ross.
It's called Grand Theft Lover. Here's a short clip. You
can hear the full song at the end of the episode.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Because I'm always.
Speaker 6 (12:18):
You.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
And now back to my conversation with actress and activists.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And jelic Ross.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
I remember being on Twitter, like right around they did
Candy's death, and I'm watching everybody be pissed all for
the most part.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Like why would they do this?
Speaker 4 (12:51):
And then the post goes up about you going into
American horror story and part of your experience there was
an American heart story.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, I'll just say this, it was just very all
all of it.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You know, you go in and find out how just
Hollywood you just.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I thought I knew and I thought I.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Was prepared, you know, for all the things, but like
you truly just are not. Everything was so calculated in
a way that I just it's hard, you know, it's
hard to unpack. There was just a lot of miscalculations.
You know, in storytelling, we always say we want you
to show us, don't tell us, you know, And so
(13:32):
towards the end of Candy's storyline, there was a lot
of telling and not a lot of showing and all
of a sudden, Candy's.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Are sex worker.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
She got HIV, like all this what she got down
a pig lig You know, it was just like all
of a sudden, It's just like all this stuff that
doesn't really we had no time to kind of process,
and you know, just a lot of the energy was
around Emmy sweep weeks. You know, I just know that
that was a lot of the conversation was around ooh,
this would be great for the Emmy's time and blah
blah blah whatever. And yet when that time came, him alone,
(14:00):
not a single campaign was done for me. Not a
single dollar was spent on an Emmy campaign for me,
and I just almost felt used. Ry Murphy was giving
me my offer for American Horror Story. He gave me
that after telling me that I was leaving Poles. So
it wasn't like I had already had that lined up
(14:22):
and it landed the job and then they decided to
write me off. No, this was him giving me a
job after writing me off sort of situation. And so
you know, he was telling me he was writing this
character Nurse Rita. It was going to be all exciting.
He was telling me all about this before I had
finished filming. So when I finished filming and business affairs
(14:43):
contacted me to offer me the deal. I looked at
the paperwork and I said no, thank you, and they
were like, excuse me, And I was like, yeah, no,
this is not enough money. I need X amount of dollars.
They were like, oh, we can't do that, blah blah blah.
Oh okay, well just tell Ryan Murphy. I really appreciate
the offer, but I'm not going to be able to
(15:04):
do it. And I don't think they expected my Black
Trands self to be turning down another job that might
have been around the same pay. I was getting that pose,
but I'm not trying to go from the same thing
to the same pay. You're in the Sun, but also
now here, I am about to go onto American Horror
(15:25):
Story as a series regular, And the last time I checked,
when I in this script and the way that things
are running, I'm here the same amount of hours they are.
So if I'm putting in the same work that they
putting in, baby, you're gonna have to pay me like
you paying the rest of these people. Now, I don't
know if they paid me like the rest of them people,
but they did up it up several thousand dollars, you know,
(15:46):
per episodes, you know. So I was able to increase
my pay. But the only reason why I was able
to do that was for two reasons. One, I was
ready to walk away, truly. And the only reason why
I'm telling you this is actual truth is because the
reality is I'm a scaredy cat, and the reality is
I did not want to do horror. I had never
(16:09):
seen the show. And so when my friend Amaya Scott
got me on to American Horror storybody get me hooked
on the Witch's season, on the Coven season, Yeah, that's
when I was like, Okay, maybe I can get through this.
But I knew at the end of the day, spiritually speaking,
for a lot of reasons, this was not something I
wanted to do. So I was willing to push a
(16:31):
little harder on the negotiations.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And let it go.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And I think again, that is kind of the energy
you have to have with a lot of these things,
because they try to put you into a situation where
they think that you can't do nothing but say yes,
or that you have no other choice. And I want
people to know I always have a choice. And I
can always choose me.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
What I love about you the most is you're one
of those people who speaks even if your voice quivers,
like even if you know there could be a repercussion
or ramification or And there are times where I look
at you and I'm like, damn, remind yourself of that,
(17:12):
Like speak even if it's shaped like speak even if
the voice is shaky, even if you're nervous, even if
the hands are shaking, like, you still have a voice
and you still have to speak. And I kind of
want to get into the Emma Roberts situation.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Long story short is just that listen going on the
American horstory. Like I said, I had the goal to
negotiate my salary, to demand respect amongst my peers, and
so I was also trying to also just be a
good guest. I was like trying to make it so
(17:48):
that this could just I could continue to being invited
back to.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Do stuff like this and what have you.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
And so I wasn't responding to every little thing that
was a little microgres this that and the third the
cattiness and the stuff or whatever. And the reality was
is that Emma was like causing it on set for everybody.
She was making everybody's life a living hell. On set,
it was just always drama and arguing and stuff going
(18:16):
on and like mind games, and so I will watch
some of these power dynamics, and sometimes I didn't know
what I was watching. I didn't know if I was
seeing a mean girl or if I was seeing a
girl who has been in the industry for so long around.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
All these men, you know, telling them, no, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Doing this, this is what's going to happen.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
And so I'm taking notes like, well, god, I'll be there,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Like is that how that worked?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
But that only worked where you know your father is
a big agent or somebody is your auntie is Julia Roberts.
You know, you got all this kind of stuff going on,
And so all the other cast members are coming in,
We're getting our wigs, touch up, our makeup, you know,
just at different times, and she's not in there, and
I'm hearing these stories and they just just telling me,
(19:05):
they telling me all this stuff, and it's like not one,
not two. It's like almost everybody on set like I'm serious.
And so I felt lucky almost that I was not
experiencing a brun of it, you know. And so then
our final day of filming with each other, she waited
till the final day to cause it. And so basically
(19:25):
she's supposed to get aged up and makeup.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
We're both are.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
She's not letting the makeup artists age her that much
in the screen with me or whatever. Okay, I still
look younger than you and I'm older than you, but okay,
so you know they're aging up, they're aging us up
or whatever, and she don't want to do all that.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
She's just being kind of a little bit of problem.
So she comes back.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
We're about to go film, and she's like, oh yeah,
I'm ready to I was like, oh yeah, you look rested,
Sean Angelica's being mean, And of course I wasn't being mean.
I was just saying, you look rested, look old, you know.
So he John's like, okay, ladies, enough already, you know,
let's get back to work.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So we're filming in a house.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
So the house has this like hallway with a mirror
at the end of the hallway or whatever. So like
she turns around and as she's turning around, she like
takes her little jacket to cover her mouth and he goes, okay, ladies,
you know, let's get back to work, and she goes,
don't you mean, lady and turns around, and she turns
around towards a mirror. So I'm standing behind her and
I'm looking at her dead in the face through the mirror, like,
(20:32):
what did you just say? And she just kind of
walked off, smirking, And I just stood there for a
second because I was just like trying to process lady
like as in one of us, like as in wait,
and I'm not trying to because if I go too
(20:53):
far down this rabbit hole, I'm the one that's gonna.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Get fired, yep, because I've heard stories.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
And rumors already about you get into a little situation
where her she not the one that's gonna be reprimanded.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
It's gonna be you, right, So I shut my ass up.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
But the reason why I finally said something about the
set up and the racism on set as well as
Emma Robberts, the reason why I finally said something is
because of how Ryan Murphy treated me.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Welcome back to Fighting Words.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
I'm Georgia Johnson, and I'm talking to actress, activists and
musician Angelica Ross.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
When I finished filming season eleven of American Horror Story.
Before I even finished filming it, he had already been
talking about us doing this all black American Horror Story season.
He had already alerted the directors of what was happening
next and whatnot. Angelical, You're gonna have about a four
week break and then we're jumping into the next season.
So this ain't just me thinking somebody promised me something
(22:07):
one day, We're gonna write a show for you, or
I got this role maybe in mind for you. This
was everyone was on alert. This was the next season,
what we were doing. Scripts were written, and that we
were on a couple week break. Then basically they said,
Ryan Murphy's got so many shows going on right now
and he's just doing too much. We need to break
this show and do it at the top of that
(22:30):
next following year.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
What have you.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So I was like, okay, fine, So I'm under contract
with them. I can't take any other job unless they
approve it, right, so lo and behold who calls during
that break time Marvel.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I have been auditioning for Marvel for three or four.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Years, and anybody who has gone to Marvel will tell
you that's kind of how it goes. You auditioned for
several years, you don't even know what parts you're auditioning
for because it's so secretive, and then one day they
call you and say, what's your availability? Right, And that's
what they did. They called me. They said, we've now
(23:11):
got this role for you. What's your availability to do
the role? Are you available between this date and this date?
I told my agent, tell them I'm available. He said,
we can't. I said, what you mean we can't. We
got to go through American Horsory first. Well, they haven't
given us any dates about when we're coming back, and
blah blah blah. Okay, well we got to go to
business affairs. They go to business affairs. Business affairs says, no,
(23:34):
she's coming back to the next season. As so far
as we know, she's coming back to next season. So
that happened. I have emails of Marvel checking back a
couple times on my availability. Come February, almost March now comes,
they started to pull the contracts. I call Business faarirs
again and Business Affairs like, oh no, we're actually pulling
(23:56):
the contracts for that right now, and your contract's not
in here.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
You won't be coming back to season eleven.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
That's how I found out, not Ryan Murphy who swears
I'm his black friend on speed dial. He didn't text me,
he didn't give me a heads up. So this just changed.
And now I'm out of a job. So now I
don't know what the tea is and why he's made
that decision, but I don't say anything because I still
(24:22):
need to work and figure things out. So for months
I say nothing, and for months no jobs. And then
I get an offer, a low ball offer to start
on Broadway. My team negotiates to offer and asks for
more money. They won't give us any more money, but
I gotta work. So now I'm on Broadway doing eight
(24:45):
shows a week as the main character, making ten thousand
dollars a week eight shows. That's just way below what
I make, but I had to take it to pay
the bills. You understand, I'm saying, I'm a black trans
woman on SAG I got to make certain amount of
money or I don't have no health insurance. Now I'm
a black trans one with no health insurance, which I
(25:05):
am right now, black trads one with no health insurance.
So for me, it was never about Ryan Murphy handing
me nothing because I've worked and earned everything and even
sometimes wrote the own words that God applauded. My whole
thing is just treat me fair enough that if I
wasn't coming back, let me go out of my contract
so that I could have taken another job and gone
(25:26):
on with Marvel. So I took some time to process
all of that, and I just told myself, Okay, this
is what's not gonna happen, because it was really just
like Elphaba and the Whiz and Yeah and Wicked or
the Wiz and the Whiz. I looked at the Wiz
and I was like, you have no real power. You
(25:47):
need all of this show, the lights, and you need
all of this. My voice is way powerful than your
most strongest light you have on that set.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
You have no real power.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And when I realized, I said, what I told myself
was what will not happen going forward is we won't
be able to walk in the same rooms without them
knowing the truth. You won't be able to hold your
head up as high as I do mine without people
knowing the truth. So I was willing to burn that bridge.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
We oftentimes have to share a community with white ware
people specifically who get to have the ability to use
their marginalization of being queer while also wielding their power
over us and over many others in a way that
doesn't advance us. In many ways, as you said, can
(26:44):
block us and suppress us. But I think the beauty
of you being able to always tell your truth is
the fact that even if you stop this character, even
if you stopped this role, even if this happened, and
this happened, you never stop, Angelica Ross.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Absolutely, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I most think most heartbreaking thing about the experience for
me was to go through a masterclass of learning what
a pick me is and learning that I'm in the
industry of pick me because you go on an audition
and you're literally saying, please pick me, But you don't
(27:27):
have to have the you know, certain characteristics of a
pick me who's willing to step over anybody to get there.
But what I realized was when I was trying to
tell my truth about what I experienced, I realized behind
me was a choir of pick mees and form my
own community. That was like, girl, I don't know why
(27:47):
you saying something. You should have just shut up. That
was all about people wanting to be in my position
and thinking that they could make a better decision than
I in my position. But the truth of the matter
at the end of the day is that you are
not in my position. I am way more powerful than this,
and I know right now that this is a spiritual test.
(28:08):
The reason why I know this is because I can
see and sit in front all this glitz and glimmer
and gowns and houses and money and cars and all
of that. And I'm so glad that you show this
to me because the way my spirituality is shown is
set up. It's always a reflection to let me know
that nothing outside of myself is more valuable than me.
(28:28):
So thank you for showing to me. Thank you for
showing me that I had access to that, because now
I know that I'm actually even more valuable than that.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
The fine thing I always like to end on.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
I always choose like three words that I try to
live by each year. What would be like your phrase
for twenty twenty five that you are.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Going to live?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I'm just getting started.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You hate that.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Remember everybody, don't compare yourself to others.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Remember sometimes your beginnings or where other people are already
at their middles and their ends to always remember you
can start at any time. I love that I'm just
getting started, because that's very powerful. Because if you already
accumulated all the accolades of someone like an Angelica rossing
for them to tell you, oh, maybe I'm just getting started,
then you know there's a lot of power that is
(29:23):
to come.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Absolutely. Thank you for having me, George.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yes, thank you for being here. Angelica, so powerful, so moving.
I love you so much.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I love you too.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
History isn't something you look back at and say it
was inevitable. It happens because people make decisions that are
sometimes very impulsive and of the moment, but those moments
are cumulative realities.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
That quote today comes from the mighty Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Johnson.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
I oftentimes tell people when we talk ab Malcolm X
and we talk about Martin Luther King, we are missing
the third m.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
And that third M is Marsha P. Johnson.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
She was one of the leaders during the Stonewall Riots
of nineteen sixty nine, which was the catalyst for the
LGBTQ rights movement in the United States and across the world.
Most people think that the Stonewall Riots were played.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
They weren't.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
The riots started after the New York City Police Department
did a raid on the Stonewall Inn. Back then, they
used to do what was called genital checks to determine
if people were trans or if they were generally conforming.
That night, the people who were in the Stonewall Inn
had had enough. One person in particular, her name was Stormy,
decided that she was going to fight back against the police.
(30:45):
As they were dragging her out, she yelled, why isn't
anyone doing anything? And it activated all of the queer
people who were there that night, and specifically Miss Major
Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Johnson.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Despite many contrasting stories, Marsha P. Johnson is known as
the person who threw the first brick at Stonewall. She
was a fighter, she was an activist, but most importantly,
she was a human. Her reality was police raids. Her
reality was her life being threatened. But she knew that
(31:20):
liberation only could exist if she and others in community
decided to fight back. It was the impulsive nature of
that evening that led to five Knights of riots in
New York City. She's the reminder that there are oftentimes
when we make history when we're not trying to make
(31:40):
history we are actually just trying to survive. So here's
how the song Grand Theft Lover by our guests Angelic
Ross came together.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I wrote Grand Theft Lover because I was taking online
songwriting class with her, the songwriter, the artist her, So
we had to write two songs as far as our
homework was concerned, one from a chre progression and one
just starting from the lyrics. So I thought about Grand
Theft Lover. I don't know how this came to me. Oh,
(32:18):
I thought Grand Theft Auto that, I thought the game.
I thought Grand Theft Lover, and then I just started
seeing this PlayStation controller in my head with the square
and the triangle and the X and all of that.
So when I wrote the hook square one in a
love triangle, doing circles, still playing games with my ex a,
(32:42):
Grand Theft Lover took my heart and ran for cover.
But the game ain't over yet.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
The game ain't.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Over yet, And I have a queer rapper in there
name Monday, who is an amazing, phenomenal rapper. So if
you haven't heard Grand Theft Lover already, I don't know
what you're waiting for. And plus go download all my
other music too, and here's the song in full.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Thanks for listening to Fighting Words and join us next
time for another round.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Clear one, Ready.
Speaker 7 (33:13):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I know your news.
Speaker 6 (33:19):
Because I'm always stensive dead. You think Clue came up down,
(33:39):
She come up up down, down left right and left
left she comes sque.
Speaker 7 (34:01):
A crand love the nal b a No, you want
to play this gony.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
Witness when there no wish on boser biggs dumb dumb.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's.
Speaker 6 (34:40):
Ve dumb dumdum, it's.
Speaker 7 (34:44):
Che swam love, joy service, lay games and mass love concas.
Speaker 6 (35:05):
No boon because should make no, I.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Don't think it's don't even with the dog bo I
do niggas.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Lokiga bay immediately when you know you know.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
South, it goes.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
Streal with me.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Raby made lad.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
Well, should I look, don't shout and jets friend love
concres nouse should make no relation.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaky
pu Gi Guar Song with Adam Pinkins and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by cole Vos, Bambianna and myself. Original music by
(36:43):
cole Vos. This episode was edited and scored by Max
Michael Miller. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel.
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