March 11, 2025 • 41 mins
George is joined by Franchesca Ramsey, the actress, writer, activist and comedian extraordinaire. Franchesca's web series "Shit White Girls Say...to Black Girls" went viral in 2014, and ever since she has been balancing entertainment and activism as a true multi-hyphenate. She hosted a show for MTV, wrote a book called Well,That Escalated Quickly: Memoirs and Mistakes of an Accidental Activist, and recently hosted a podcast looking back at the triumphs and cringe-worthy blindspots of America's Next Top Model, called “We Were All Rooting for You”. This week's Queer Artist Spotlight is "Clippin" by SeanDon.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
When that video went viral, suddenly I had all these
opportunities and all these people asking me to speak on
social justice issues, and I genuinely was like, ah, I am
just like a funny girl who likes photoshops, so I
don't feel totally qualified.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's Francesca Ramsey. In twenty twelve, she made a video
on YouTube call shit White girls say to black girl.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Not to be racist, but not some racist, but not
so racist. My grandma hates collars? Wait is that racist?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That video got twelve million views, and at the time
friend was working multiple jobs as a graphic designer and
fashion making videos on the side, but that viral sketch
changed things for her.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I never had any activist or social justice aspirations, but
I realized, like, oh, I'm I'm actually really good at
talking about identity through a comedic lens, so why not
continue following it.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Her ability to talk about identity issues through comedy has
made Francesca the accomplished artist she is today a writer,
a comedian, a producer. She is also the author of
the book Well That Escalated Quickly, and the creator of
the MTV series Decoded Now. She recently came out with
the podcast that looks back at the boundary, breaking highs
(01:25):
and incredible cringey loads of America's next top model. It's
called We Were All Rooting for You, and it's on audible.
Francesca is a multi hyphenet who has taught us that
even her mistakes can give you great power in this world.
I've known her for several years through social media and
(01:45):
other events and a particular situation that we will discuss
on today's showing Handy, So the world take us.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Super brandy guy, you know what the plan is?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Orca a Latinino. One does understand me.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I'm Georgiam Johnson and this is fighting words. I am
here today with a friend, Miss Francesca Ramsey. How are
you doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
All things considered, I'm doing all right. I'm doing okay.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
How we usually like to start off the show is
because we all have, like the social media platforms, people
see only what we share, and so sometimes they don't
know who we are as people. And I think the
bigger we get, the less human we seem to people. Yes,
and I feel all of that very deeply. Yes, So
we would like for you to tell everybody who is
(02:46):
Francesca Ramsey.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh, Okay, Well, I usually introduce myself as a TV writer,
an actress, a producer. I used to say former graphic designer,
but I've gotten back in my design back, so now
I'm like, no, we hee, a baby graphic designer, a
multi hyphen it in every sense of the word. But
outside of the creative space, I would say I'm a
(03:10):
big softie, I'm an mpath I feel very very deeply.
I care about people. I'm a people person. I like
if we're in the grocery store and you're buying a
snack that I like, like, just believe we're going to
start talking. And I'm also a creative in every sense
of the word. I just I love to make stuff.
There's just nothing better than having an idea and seeing
(03:34):
it come to life and toiling away until it's just right.
And so I'm really thankful that I'm able to do
that as my job.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I love that. And you know, for me, I often
get asked the question like, what was the book that
you read that made you want to be a writer,
And I always tell everybody it actually wasn't my love
of books. It was my hatred of what I was
forced to read, and catcher and a Rise the book
that made me want to become a writer, because I
was like, no kids should ever have to read this,
(04:04):
Like that is so funny. I just think that book
is horrible. So what was the thing in you? You know?
For those who don't know, Francesca has a book that
was wildly successful and popular called Well that Escalated Quickly
memoir The Mistakes of an Accidental Activist. What was it
that made you want to go into you know, writing
(04:25):
a book, but also like going into like the television
and film space.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Well, I mean the title of that book is very
you know. I must say I ate with that one,
because it really was an accident. I went to school
for acting. I left acting school and studied graphic design.
But I studied acting and all through middle school and
high school at a performing arts school. So I was
always very creative and I never had any activist or
(04:53):
social justice aspirations. I genuinely made a sketch called shit
White Girl's Side a Black Girl in twenty twelve. Yes,
and I've been making YouTube videos for about six years.
At that time, while working as a graphic designer, I
worked in fashion. I worked at Maybolene in the package department.
I worked at Anne Taylor doing windows stuff, and when
(05:14):
that video went viral, suddenly I had all these opportunities
and all these people asking me to speak on social
justice issues, and I genuinely was like, ah, I am
just like a funny girl who likes photoshops, so I
don't feel totally qualified. But I also saw the opportunity
to transition in entertainment, which is what I always wanted
(05:37):
to do, and I realized like, oh, I'm actually really
good at talking about identity through a comedic lens, so
why not continue following it. So that's really the thing
that kick started it for me.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Being an advocate, sometimes it means you have to actually
take an action.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I really just try to practice what I preach, and
I have had instances throughout my life and my career
where somebody had to pull me to the side and
I'm so thankful that they did, and similarly, they didn't
have to do that work. It's a lot of emotional labor,
it's a lot of hand holding, and I've done it
enough times over the course of my career and my
(06:21):
life that I feel very adept at it. Again, it
doesn't always work, but if anything, I just get better
with practice, and sometimes it does work and the person goes, oh,
my gosh, you're right, I did mess up. But you
can't get to that place if you don't try. And
I think, especially post election, we are having this reckoning
(06:43):
with a lot of black folks, specifically black women, saying
I'm done doing this work because the reality is a
lot of white people need to do this work and
we've been doing it. And so when you encounter someone
who says something racist, homophobic, sexist, whatever, you have to
get out of your comfort zone and you have to
say something. People will not change. People's eyes and hearts
(07:06):
and minds will not be influenced if you just sit
back and go, oh, I'm throwing up my hands. But
black women, especially we've been the forefront of so many movements, yes,
and queer people of black queer people specifically, that a
lot of us are like, you know what, we need
to work within our own community. There's still lots of
(07:27):
work that needs to be done, but the time for
free labor and education has come and gone.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That's been the most interesting thing I feel post election
is that notion. It's just like, Okay, we're a little
bit over this, And what I've noticed, interestingly enough, is
that the other side, what do you want to call them, Conservatives, maga,
whatever you want, whatever you feel like calling them today
are almost upset that we have decided to just that
(08:00):
be outraged anymore by them and just have the statitudes
to be like you know what, y'all got it, and
to watch like this whole like oh wait, there's no
one left to fight scenario play out?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Oh yeah. I mean think about a great example as
truth social when the conservatives were like, we're gonna leave
Twitter because we are being persecuted, and they started their
own platform and they realized it wasn't very fun over there.
It's both sad and infuriating to realize that for a
lot of people who brand themselves as maga or conservative,
(08:36):
their position isn't so much about what they stand for,
but what they're against. And what they're against is quote
unquote liberal people, snowflake people, the libs, the looney left, whatever,
and so when we aren't there to antagonize, it's like
who are you? And I think about when I was
doing I had a show and I'MTV called Decoded and
(08:58):
it was about race and pop culture and there was
a whole community of people that would make videos about me,
and they would talk about how terrible I was, and
they would cut up my content and they would do
all this stuff, and it was just an onslaught of harassment.
And at the end of six years, I decided that
I didn't want to do the show anymore for a
number of reasons. But I said, quite poignantly, a lot
(09:22):
of y'all's channels are gonna fail when I'm not here,
And guess what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna move on
and do other things because my brand is not built
on talking about other people and how dumb they are
and how they I'm creating stuff all of the time.
Black people, we are creating things. We are innovators, queer people,
we are always pushing culture for We don't need y'all.
(09:44):
Y'all need us. And so, to go back to your point, George,
a lot of conservative folks, a lot of maga folks
are realizing, well, y'all, y'all don't want to fight with us.
Who am I If I don't have you to fight with,
I don't know. You gotta figure it out.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And that's really what what I've had to even learn
with my book being banned and everything. I was like,
the more I go, the more they go. But once
I just was like, you know what, I'm going to
change what my plan is. I'm going to continue to
fight this thing, but I'm going to fight it with
a different lens, Like I'm not actually fighting a person.
I have to fight a policy, and this policy has
nothing to do with you. Also, I'm going to go
that route to watch the decrease and even the attacks
(10:25):
at me directly and everything, like if it was almost
like oh wow, like they really have no identity outside
of antagonistic politic.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I had that same realization where I was like, oh,
if I stopped feeding the beast, y'all will get bored
and realize you have to move on because to your point,
if if engaging with me is no longer profitable, then
they have to figure something else out. And you know
one thing about us, we stay employed, so I'm not worried.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We always all say all.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Sorts of stuff about my talent and my success or whatever.
The lights somehow stay on.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Exactly that, and the deals keep getting signed, which actually
this is a good pivot to where I wanted to go.
I started out. Okay, first of all, I was not
a writer. I went to school for finance. So oh wow,
this beautiful career that I have was chosen, like I say,
by a higher purpose that finally was like what are
you gonna do? What I'm telling you?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
I will say I know a lot of finance people
who've moved into creative fields.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I always tell them like, creativity is, it's an art,
but it's also a science and mad like it's also
stem at some point. But for like young creatives who
I talked to a lot, they always ask like, how'd
you end up with all this? And I was like,
my advice has always been you start with one thing,
and you get good at one thing, and then you
build off of that one thing. So writing was what
(11:48):
I was good at, and so I was a journalist
and then it was like, well, if I could be
a journalists, then I can write books. Well not on
writing books and somebody offers you a deal to be like, hey,
we want to adapt your book. It's like, okay, well
maybe I can write television and films. Yeah, right, Like
it tentacled off. And so for you, as a creative
who's done a myriad of things and a myriad of spaces.
(12:09):
What advice do you have for the young creative? Because
what I noticed a lot of times with the young
creatives they think success is a microwave and out an oven. Yeah,
and so if it doesn't happen immediately, they jump to
the next thing, They jump to the next thing, and
they never truly find it, or they try to do
multiple things at the same time. What would your advice
be as a og creative in the YouTube days?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
As so one thing that was really transformative for me,
and I will admit this took me many years to
figure out. But setting goals that you can control. So
instead of saying I want to win an Oscar, which
is a great goal, can you write five pages of
(12:55):
your script every week? Can you finish the pilot at
the end of the quarter. Can you shoot a scene
of your short film? Can you take an acting class?
Can you read a pilot a month?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Like? What?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Can you set goals for yourself that help get towards
you know, maybe that big goal of winning an oscar,
But if you want to be a filmmaker, you don't
have to win an Oscar to be a filmmaker. There
are lots of great filmmakers that don't have oscars, and
there's a lot of shitty ones that do have all scars. So,
you know, people to your point about the microwave of
(13:33):
it all. I encounter this a lot of times too,
when I talk to creatives. They're like, how do I
get my podcast beyond the number one chart? How do
I sell a television show? And I'm like, you know,
there's no secret recipe for those things. But if your
version of success is these lofty goals that you never
(13:55):
know when they're gonna happen, you could work ten twenty
thirty years and never sell a television show or be
on the top of the podcast charts or whatever else
those things are, you're gonna get burnt out really fast.
And especially when I'm gonna keep it a buck, your
friends and peers start seeing the success that you want,
(14:16):
you're gonna be like, oh, oh my goodness. You know
what I don't do watch the Emmys. You know why,
because I got a lot of friends winning Emmys. I
love them down, but like, if I get sidetracked by
what y'all are doing, I can't focus on what I'm doing.
And so it's a marathon, not a sprint. And the
(14:38):
other thing is you really have to figure out like
why you're doing it. If you're doing it for the
external stuff, again, it's gonna be really easy to burn out.
But if you're doing it because you have a story
to tell, you really like pushing yourself. You like collaborating,
you like finding For me, and my big one is
telling untold stories. I can do that without anybody else's help.
(15:01):
Help is great, but I don't need to sell a
show or win awards in order to do that. I
can do that with my phone, by myself. So those,
I think would be the two main things I would
say that young creatives need to focus on.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's great, and I oftentimes think about even with myself.
You can want somebody's success, but you may be at
your beginnings while they're in their middles, and some of
them are at their ends, and you're like, oh, I
want this thing that they have, and it's like yeah,
but they're in their middle.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
And sometimes the thing that they have you don't want.
You just you just think you want. I will never forget.
I auditioned for a show once and I was so
heartbroken that I didn't get it, and I just I
did the thing where like I started fantasizing about what
my life was going to be like when I got
this job, and I in my mind, I had already
(15:54):
spent the money. I was already on the red carpet's like,
I was doing all of the things. And then I
came pretty close, but I didn't book the job. And
then years later I became friendly with the person who
did book the job, and I remember we were I
think we were like on vacation and it came up
and I was trying to be so smooth. I was like, oh, yeah,
I remember that. Yeah, sounds familiar. And she was like,
(16:18):
oh what a nightmare that was. And I couldn't cut.
I just was my face I'm sure was giving me away,
but she was just revealing that it was really difficult.
The money wasn't good, she was treated really badly. There
was just all of these nightmare situations were happening there,
and you know, I of course don't wish that on anyone,
(16:41):
but it was so perspective shifting of like, wow, I
was so heartbroken that I didn't get this, and I
was looking at you and I was thinking, God, I
would do anything to be in her shoes. And here
I am now learning that you were miserable and you
weren't even making that much money.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
You know, rejection is sometimes protection. I think about that often, yes,
and it's important to like refocus energy. So sometimes I
also tell that you repurpose envy and jealousy. Yeah, because
that's that's really how you succeed. And it's funny because
there is one person who I remember always talking about
(17:19):
how she had to repurpose her energies when she would
feel envious or jealous, and it was Tyra Banks. There's
actually wow, that's actually one of her biggest clips is
her talking about the jealousy and NBA how to repurpose it.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Listen, there are many things you can say about Tyra,
but one thing you can't say is that she don't
know her shit. She really does. I say something very similar,
I say, stop hating, start studying. And I had many
times what there was somebody I was hating on and
I realized, you know what, I have to be honest
with myself. They are putting in the work. I might
not like it, it might not be for me, but
(17:54):
I'm wasting my time growing through their Instagram and looking
through the comments and said, oh, you know she, of
course she did. Deep Dad. Meanwhile, they're over there working,
So what can I learn from them? How can I
look at the moves that they've made and repurposed them
for myself, you know, kind of like you did with
(18:15):
the book proposal. That was the kick in the pants
that you needed where you were like, if they can
get a book deal, so can I. Guy, right, And
I think about that all the time. When I think
about again the people who were talking about how untalented
I was and how I shouldn't have a show, I'm like,
if you put half of that energy into making your
own thing, you could have a show too.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
You can have a show.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
There's room for all of us.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Speaking of new projects, you recently had a project come out,
a podcast on America's Next Top Model for audible anyone
who still has because we're not going to call it
X no. Absolutely that I feel like it was during
the pandemic when we all were stuck in the house
that there was a resurgence of Top Model clips. Yes,
(19:01):
when all of us who were diehards for the show,
because I used to watch it with my mother and
it was it was a huge hit. Started to see
these clips and be like kind of like, how would
you rewatch Maisha? Maybe this wasn't such a great show,
or like, maybe it's so true.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I don't know. I don't know how we all got
the memo to start rewatching Top Model, but it was
right at the beginning of the pandemic, and that was
really what inspired the show that I hosted for Audible.
We were all rooting for you. The titles inspired by
the iconic moment that stopped the world on its axis
(19:43):
when Tyer was yelling at Tiffany, and that moment in particular,
I think a lot of people were seeing with fresh
eyes of realizing like, oh man, I remember this being like, oh,
I live for the drama, and now as an adult,
I'm looking at it and feeling like, oh, this kind
of feels like and I'm not sure this is fair.
And that was the thing I loved about this podcast
(20:06):
is the opportunity to say, hey, here's a piece of
media that I loved and I still love and still
have fond memories for and also was groundbreaking in a
number of ways. But the reality is, things aren't black
and white, and I think it's too often we want
to say like this thing is all good or this
thing is all bad, and the reality is it's a
(20:27):
little bit of column A, a little bit of Columbe.
And so it was a really beautiful opportunity to rewatch
Top Model and get paid for it, you know, but
also to give the show its flowers, because regardless of
what you think about Tyra, or regardless of what you
think about Top Model, her impact cannot be denied. Y'all
(20:48):
are smising You never even see the show before. Okay,
people from the show are legit celebrities. Ya ya da
Costa Eva the diva. Yeah, first trans girl on a
reality show. I mean, there were so many firsts that
she might not necessarily handled the best, but they were
(21:12):
really important and culture shifting, and the way reality TV
is structured today, a lot of it is because of
the way Top Model was structured, and they were really
the first.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I mean, I think that we should probably do that
with most oh yeah shows and sitcoms.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, I mean most things. The reality is, most things
don't age well, most things don't. They are a time
capsule of the moment. And you know, I really hate
the phrase cancel culture because it just doesn't exist, like
we can't cancel top Model. We can't go back in
time and erase it. And I would never suggest like
(21:51):
rip it off the air, no one should watch it.
I think it's I think it's always a good idea
to reflect on our past and recognize how far we
come and how far we need to continue going. It
was really eye opening for myself to even think about
moments on the show, like models doing blackface. When I
was watching that, I didn't think anything of it. I
(22:12):
was like, oh, yes, she looks amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It was it was the dressing up as homeless people.
That's the one I will never forget, even as even
when I first thought I was like, wait a minute,
something about this, it just doesn't see but you.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Get bought, but get watching it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Because it was like, oh, that's interesting. This week's square
(22:58):
out of Spotlight is Clipping by Sean don. Here's a
short sample. You can listen to the whole track. At
the end of the.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Episode to my home, I told them people.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
When you see you know, really space.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
And now back to my conversation with Francesca Ramsey. So
moving forward, as you said, do you make a conscious
decision to always try to get it right? I find
myself as a creative struggling at the axis of well,
I know what's right because I I do this work
(23:45):
and I'm I research and I study and I know
the right things. But then it's like, I'm a creative too,
and sometimes doing what's wrong is what's right to create
the conversation. So do you find yourself at that access
of strung at times with the creativity.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I am definitely somebody who tries very hard to get
things right. But I also have had to give myself
the grace to acknowledge that I'm always I always going
to know. There's a saying you don't always know what
you don't know, And especially again as culture moves forward
and more people get opportunities to have platforms and speak
(24:25):
on certain issues. Are understanding around certain identities and ideas
change and evolve. So while I do the best I
can in this moment, there's nothing to say that five
years from now, somebody might be like, here's an episode
of for Tusca's podcast where she used this word, and
all I can do is say, oh, wow, thanks for
(24:46):
bringing that to my attention. I'm moving forward. I'm gonna
stop saying that. For example, I used to stay crazy
all the time, and I don't say crazy anymore. Every
once in a while I might slip and say it,
but I really push my self to say, well that's wild,
or that's unbelievable, or my flabbers were guested, Like I
just try to say funny, silly, more creative ways. And
(25:11):
it was. It was not until someone brought to my
attention like, hey, this can be really hurtful to people
with disabilities, people that are neurodivergent. This word has been
used in a way that has oppressed our community for
a long time. And when you say it makes me uncomfortable.
And again, I just try to lead by example to
say like, Okay, my world didn't end. I wasn't like
(25:33):
you are. This is now I need to go on
a world tour because I'm being silenced. I just said okay, yeah, sure,
that makes sense. I get it now. I can't go
back in time and erase every single time I've said it.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I always tell everyone the real work is done in
the edits, MM, the real work is done in the critiques,
Like that's actually when you actually have to do the
real work. And you also brought us something where made
me think about what Zorn Hurston said, which essentially was
like she wished that she do everything before she wrote
a book, but that if she knew everything, that she
(26:10):
may never write the book.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Because why would you why would you need to?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So she had to learn how to write books, knowing
that she may not always get something right, but that
there would be another time that she could correct herself
or write it in a new book. And so I
guess that's a good thing to get out there too,
especially any young creatives who are listening. I hope you
are taking all of this wisdom in because people charge
(26:36):
for this type of stuff, which is interesting because I
feel like as black folks, this is one of the
things that we do the best, is we give the
secrets out. We try to let everybody know ahead of time.
I know, I'm so guilty of that. Something else I
want to ask you. I always talk about how the
imagination could be an interesting thing, and as creatives, we
(26:57):
you know, we have to go to dark places sometimes
with the things we're creating. Some times we go to
joyous places. But how I would say, like our liberation
resides in the imagination because you can imagine a world
that's different and what the other side tries to do
is make you only imagine the worst possibilities that will
happen when they do things. Yeah, and so what is
(27:19):
it that you try to do to try and keep
your imagination? I like to say, keep my imagination healthy.
So what are some healthy ways to protect the health
of the creativity And what do you do for self care?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's a really great question. I saw this talked about
on a podcast recently, and I can't remember who it was,
so please forgive me, but they were talking about doing
instead of catastrophizing, which is what you're talking about, which
again is something I'm very good at coming up with
like the Twister, you know, epic bombs falling from the sky,
(27:54):
things falling apart version. But the best case scenarioing of
it all is like, Okay, I know I'm good at
the catastrophizing part. What if everything worked out? What like,
just for a moment's who's it going to hurt to
think of all of the possibilities that are on the
other side. I call it knitting a sweater. Don't knit
(28:15):
a sweater. You and somebody have maybe not connected, and
our inclination is to start knitting a sweater of all
the reasons why they haven't called me because they don't
like me anymore. They have a new friend, they're upset
about this thing that I did, and none of that
is you don't know. Those are things that you invented.
Give your imagination room to play and come up with,
(28:37):
like the silliest scenarios, come up with, you know, the
most gracious scenarios. Sometimes other people are going through stuff
and has nothing to do with us, and we're projecting
onto them that they're mad at us or they don't
like us or whatever. And sometimes people are like, I
lost my job, girl, That's why I didn't call you.
Like I'm going through stuff. So doing that has been
(28:59):
really helped for me. And then self care for me
looks like I love a massage. I have a great
spa that does like day of appointments, and I'm real good.
I'm like, even if it's just thirty minutes, I'm getting
in there. I love that. I love to travel. I
love to take a social media break, even if it's
(29:20):
only for a week. Sometimes I can't afford to take
more because of work stuff, but time away has been
really good. And then another thing for creative people especially
is art that has nothing to do with your work.
I think is very important because if you are blessed
enough to make your creative talent your job, there comes
(29:43):
a point where you can start to like really hate
your creative thing because suddenly you're creating by committee. It's
like we got to get on a call to talk
about the thing, and then you have to get notes,
and then there's a deadline, and then you have to
do with that, and there's just all of these things
and your brain. For me, like i start to struggle
with being able to create on demand because I'm thinking
(30:07):
about like will the cell are people gonna like it?
Is it gonna go viral? And so it's been so
crucial to have creative outlets that have nothing to do
with anyone else. I don't post it on the internet.
I'm not being paid for it. I don't have a deadline.
No one gets to say if they like it or
they don't like it. It's just for me. I Also,
(30:29):
I have a hot tub. One thing I will do
is be in that hot tub. I'm getting my money's worth.
End of a long day. I'm down there with my
little speaker and just in the bubbly with you know,
a glass of wine or you know, just some friends
hanging out gossiping. So yeah, self care does not have
to be some big involved thing. And something that I
(30:53):
always say is that it has to become a regular
practice even when things are good, so that when things
are challenging, it's easier for you to lean into it.
If you're really going through something, it can be really
hard to be like I'm going to start a self
care practice now, Like, no, start it when you're doing
when you're doing.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Okay, Yeah, routines are important, but I think if you
could just speak really quickly to what has your life
felt like as a as a creative. I know for
me it's a lot of moving parts, a lot of
Net thirties, NET sixties, Net ninetiest my lawyer, NASA sue
(31:32):
type of situations. So there is another side to being
a creative that could be hard and it's not a
steady check.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I recently turned forty one, and I gotta say forty
was a game changer. I feel like I got my superpowers,
my creative brain, just like I always was creative. I
was always I always felt confident as a writer, as
a performer, whatever. But something about like the way I
(32:03):
see the world and the way that I see myself
really crystallized in a way where I really trust myself
and I am less concerned with what other people think
about my work and I'm more concerned with what I
think about my work. I have really committed to creating
opportunities for myself instead of begging other people to give
(32:27):
me an opportunity. I'm just kind of like, if you're interested, great,
If you're not, I'm moving on. Somebody else will be,
you know. And it's been so liberating. And I'm somebody
who I've always been like a very type a planner,
and something I'm really trying to be better about is
(32:48):
just letting go and being in the moment because so
much of the stuff that's happened for my career as
an artist in the past year I never could have anticipated.
So it's like I can waste all the time in
the world ruminating on what I want to happen, and
then someone will be like, hey, you want to host
this show about top model and I was like, what, yeah,
(33:13):
we're thinking about this is perfect for me, you know.
So I feel really really fortunate, and I think a
lot of us rightfully so are feeling nervous about the future.
But for me, the silver lining is this is a
time when artists thrive, like the pressures of the world
(33:37):
and the frustrations of the world and speaking truth to power,
Like all of that comes out of people looking around
them and saying, like things are not right. I need
to do something about this. And I am very heartened
by the fact that so many artists are going to
be They're going to find their superpowers during this time.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I love that. And now back to my conversation with
Francesca Ramsey. So we always end the show, I would say,
(34:27):
what are your three words for twenty twenty five? So
I always pick three words every year, like right at
the start of my year, and sometimes it ends up
being a statement, or sometimes it's three separate words. What
would be your three words for your twenty twenty five
or like I said a statement of three words.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Hey, yeah, I like the three words. I think I
have three words. The first one is abundance and that's
that's a carryover. So I kind of cheated there. But
just thinking about the fact that there are lots of opportunities,
like instead of thinking small, thinking like endless opportunities, endless possibilities,
and then related to abundance delegation, which is something I'm
(35:09):
very bad at but I am slowly getting better at.
I hired someone to film something for me recently, and
I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. And
so if I'm living in abundance, there will be things
I'm not able to do by myself and I will
have to hire someone. I will have to open doors
for other people, I'll have to call other people in
(35:31):
and it's again something I'm not very good at, but
I'm excited to get better at it because I want
to be in a place where I have lots of
things that I'm working on and lots of people that
I'm working with, and I want to be able to
trust myself and them to say, you can take care
of this thing, go do it. And then my third word,
(35:54):
Oh my god, I think I already lost my third word.
I got on such a tangent about all was delegating.
I'm gonna do maybe I just have two words.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Listen, Okay, the remix the remix, Francheska. I want to
thank you for being here today, for its founding so
much wisdom, and just for being someone who uses your
words to help us in this fight of the thing
make call life.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Oh thank you so much. I feel similarly about you,
and I'm so excited for you with the show, and
I'm just honored that I got to be a part
of it.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yes, thank you. And that was Francesca Ramsey. Here's a
quote to leave you with. I love myself when I
am laughing and then again when I am looking mean
and impressive. Those words were given to us by the
(36:45):
iconic Zora No Hurston, who was one of the greatest anthropologists, writers,
thought provokers, and leaders during the Harlem Renaissance and the
Negative Movement. She wrote those words in a letter to
her close friend, the photographer Carl Vin, referring to a
series of photos he had taken of her back in
nineteen thirty four. When zord and Hurston died in nineteen sixty,
(37:08):
she had published more books than any black woman in history.
She was often attacked by her critics, both black and white,
both on the left and on the right, for unorthodox
views and her fiery personality. She was truly an independent
thinker and one of a kind. And now in full
(37:32):
this is clipping by Sean Don Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
I think gonna buck that bit you pass into my home,
I told him, people, when you've seen you, no, I
think niggers home.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Took quick to get the crypt and get the trip
you got to get in my bad.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I bully don't have no feelings ever gotta do too
much of them in my thumbal pitch and ship could
have been just chi could have been chuffled quick to
get the crypt and I get the trip to get
in my bad. I bully don't have no feelings, never
gotta do.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Too much of them in my thumbal pitch and hit
could have been just rip cut a bit, chuffled, click,
put it in the bad man, fuck with the plush.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I don't never take no louse number one kick throwing
nigga on the bouts in the fetal bricks.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
From shopping their broths. These nicks don't like me. I'm
a bitch. Niggas want to fight me, get hit it.
That's hiking, stepping on. That's like I'm hiking.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Really don't want that. You just want to say so
it is macause that cannot be me getting understanding of
their copy for please get back to the streets of
their opinion to stay big body Moore and you believe
it's a dummy. Got a little cribs, a little bummy
into the pain, this little funny steven on the time,
and I stick it in the tummy and then I'd
be done.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
I can't fuck with them and company. These pictures be
sucking them and company, these pictures. But number just a bitch.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
I ain't giving no not of them purping niggas get
a heist, see some juicy juice or a high seat.
People in the pocus on ice seas took me in
my eyes on high seed.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
I'm I'm out about you broke the niggash his coup.
What is that about? Things?
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Really ain't about the ship bitches out on my dead
thought he was on the way back to the clean
to the lot and hit that ship. That that ship
I ain't gonna lie, I thought the fiction, and passing
to my homie, I told him, keeping lokey when you
see me, don't no, I told me not trust you
just send me slicking squally owe me. That's to get
my space. This thing some of Loki, I ain't gonna lie,
(39:32):
I thought, the pitch and.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Passing to my homie. I told him keep it low
key when you see me.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Don't no, I don't not trusting, but just send me
slickers c really owe me proke that psh to get
a space.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
This sink some of Loki ookee shot like.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Truf.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
I'm pretty to get the clipping, the bit you get
the stripped get in my bad now. I fully don't
have no feelings. I gotta do too much of them
in my thumb. Could have been just could have been
shuffle clip quick to get the clip and get the
strip in my bad. I bully don't have no feeling
this stuff. I gotta do too much of them in
(40:18):
my thom could have been could have been chuffled clip.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
I ain't gonna lie. I fucked the bitch and passed
him to my homie, So I told him keep it
low key when you see me.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
You know I told you trust send me slickers, really
owe me jist space to say something.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
A low key.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Fighting Words is production of iHeart Podcast in partnership with
Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced
by Charlotte Morley E. Second producers are myself and tweaty
p G guar Song with Adam Pinke and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by kole Vas Banbianna and myself. Original music by
(41:09):
Cole Vaas. This episode was edited and scored by Max
Michael Milller. Our ieart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel.
Following Rape Fighting Words Wherever You Get Your Podcast
When that video went viral, suddenly I had all these
opportunities and all these people asking me to speak on
social justice issues, and I genuinely was like, ah, I am
just like a funny girl who likes photoshops, so I
don't feel totally qualified.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's Francesca Ramsey. In twenty twelve, she made a video
on YouTube call shit White girls say to black girl.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Not to be racist, but not some racist, but not
so racist. My grandma hates collars? Wait is that racist?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That video got twelve million views, and at the time
friend was working multiple jobs as a graphic designer and
fashion making videos on the side, but that viral sketch
changed things for her.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I never had any activist or social justice aspirations, but
I realized, like, oh, I'm I'm actually really good at
talking about identity through a comedic lens, so why not
continue following it.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Her ability to talk about identity issues through comedy has
made Francesca the accomplished artist she is today a writer,
a comedian, a producer. She is also the author of
the book Well That Escalated Quickly, and the creator of
the MTV series Decoded Now. She recently came out with
the podcast that looks back at the boundary, breaking highs
(01:25):
and incredible cringey loads of America's next top model. It's
called We Were All Rooting for You, and it's on audible.
Francesca is a multi hyphenet who has taught us that
even her mistakes can give you great power in this world.
I've known her for several years through social media and
(01:45):
other events and a particular situation that we will discuss
on today's showing Handy, So the world take us.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Super brandy guy, you know what the plan is?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Orca a Latinino. One does understand me.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I'm Georgiam Johnson and this is fighting words. I am
here today with a friend, Miss Francesca Ramsey. How are
you doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
All things considered, I'm doing all right. I'm doing okay.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
How we usually like to start off the show is
because we all have, like the social media platforms, people
see only what we share, and so sometimes they don't
know who we are as people. And I think the
bigger we get, the less human we seem to people. Yes,
and I feel all of that very deeply. Yes, So
we would like for you to tell everybody who is
(02:46):
Francesca Ramsey.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh, Okay, Well, I usually introduce myself as a TV writer,
an actress, a producer. I used to say former graphic designer,
but I've gotten back in my design back, so now
I'm like, no, we hee, a baby graphic designer, a
multi hyphen it in every sense of the word. But
outside of the creative space, I would say I'm a
(03:10):
big softie, I'm an mpath I feel very very deeply.
I care about people. I'm a people person. I like
if we're in the grocery store and you're buying a
snack that I like, like, just believe we're going to
start talking. And I'm also a creative in every sense
of the word. I just I love to make stuff.
There's just nothing better than having an idea and seeing
(03:34):
it come to life and toiling away until it's just right.
And so I'm really thankful that I'm able to do
that as my job.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I love that. And you know, for me, I often
get asked the question like, what was the book that
you read that made you want to be a writer,
And I always tell everybody it actually wasn't my love
of books. It was my hatred of what I was
forced to read, and catcher and a Rise the book
that made me want to become a writer, because I
was like, no kids should ever have to read this,
(04:04):
Like that is so funny. I just think that book
is horrible. So what was the thing in you? You know?
For those who don't know, Francesca has a book that
was wildly successful and popular called Well that Escalated Quickly
memoir The Mistakes of an Accidental Activist. What was it
that made you want to go into you know, writing
(04:25):
a book, but also like going into like the television
and film space.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Well, I mean the title of that book is very
you know. I must say I ate with that one,
because it really was an accident. I went to school
for acting. I left acting school and studied graphic design.
But I studied acting and all through middle school and
high school at a performing arts school. So I was
always very creative and I never had any activist or
(04:53):
social justice aspirations. I genuinely made a sketch called shit
White Girl's Side a Black Girl in twenty twelve. Yes,
and I've been making YouTube videos for about six years.
At that time, while working as a graphic designer, I
worked in fashion. I worked at Maybolene in the package department.
I worked at Anne Taylor doing windows stuff, and when
(05:14):
that video went viral, suddenly I had all these opportunities
and all these people asking me to speak on social
justice issues, and I genuinely was like, ah, I am
just like a funny girl who likes photoshops, so I
don't feel totally qualified. But I also saw the opportunity
to transition in entertainment, which is what I always wanted
(05:37):
to do, and I realized like, oh, I'm actually really
good at talking about identity through a comedic lens, so
why not continue following it. So that's really the thing
that kick started it for me.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Being an advocate, sometimes it means you have to actually
take an action.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I really just try to practice what I preach, and
I have had instances throughout my life and my career
where somebody had to pull me to the side and
I'm so thankful that they did, and similarly, they didn't
have to do that work. It's a lot of emotional labor,
it's a lot of hand holding, and I've done it
enough times over the course of my career and my
(06:21):
life that I feel very adept at it. Again, it
doesn't always work, but if anything, I just get better
with practice, and sometimes it does work and the person goes, oh,
my gosh, you're right, I did mess up. But you
can't get to that place if you don't try. And
I think, especially post election, we are having this reckoning
(06:43):
with a lot of black folks, specifically black women, saying
I'm done doing this work because the reality is a
lot of white people need to do this work and
we've been doing it. And so when you encounter someone
who says something racist, homophobic, sexist, whatever, you have to
get out of your comfort zone and you have to
say something. People will not change. People's eyes and hearts
(07:06):
and minds will not be influenced if you just sit
back and go, oh, I'm throwing up my hands. But
black women, especially we've been the forefront of so many movements, yes,
and queer people of black queer people specifically, that a
lot of us are like, you know what, we need
to work within our own community. There's still lots of
(07:27):
work that needs to be done, but the time for
free labor and education has come and gone.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That's been the most interesting thing I feel post election
is that notion. It's just like, Okay, we're a little
bit over this, And what I've noticed, interestingly enough, is
that the other side, what do you want to call them, Conservatives, maga,
whatever you want, whatever you feel like calling them today
are almost upset that we have decided to just that
(08:00):
be outraged anymore by them and just have the statitudes
to be like you know what, y'all got it, and
to watch like this whole like oh wait, there's no
one left to fight scenario play out?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Oh yeah. I mean think about a great example as
truth social when the conservatives were like, we're gonna leave
Twitter because we are being persecuted, and they started their
own platform and they realized it wasn't very fun over there.
It's both sad and infuriating to realize that for a
lot of people who brand themselves as maga or conservative,
(08:36):
their position isn't so much about what they stand for,
but what they're against. And what they're against is quote
unquote liberal people, snowflake people, the libs, the looney left, whatever,
and so when we aren't there to antagonize, it's like
who are you? And I think about when I was
doing I had a show and I'MTV called Decoded and
(08:58):
it was about race and pop culture and there was
a whole community of people that would make videos about me,
and they would talk about how terrible I was, and
they would cut up my content and they would do
all this stuff, and it was just an onslaught of harassment.
And at the end of six years, I decided that
I didn't want to do the show anymore for a
number of reasons. But I said, quite poignantly, a lot
(09:22):
of y'all's channels are gonna fail when I'm not here,
And guess what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna move on
and do other things because my brand is not built
on talking about other people and how dumb they are
and how they I'm creating stuff all of the time.
Black people, we are creating things. We are innovators, queer people,
we are always pushing culture for We don't need y'all.
(09:44):
Y'all need us. And so, to go back to your point, George,
a lot of conservative folks, a lot of maga folks
are realizing, well, y'all, y'all don't want to fight with us.
Who am I If I don't have you to fight with,
I don't know. You gotta figure it out.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And that's really what what I've had to even learn
with my book being banned and everything. I was like,
the more I go, the more they go. But once
I just was like, you know what, I'm going to
change what my plan is. I'm going to continue to
fight this thing, but I'm going to fight it with
a different lens, Like I'm not actually fighting a person.
I have to fight a policy, and this policy has
nothing to do with you. Also, I'm going to go
that route to watch the decrease and even the attacks
(10:25):
at me directly and everything, like if it was almost
like oh wow, like they really have no identity outside
of antagonistic politic.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I had that same realization where I was like, oh,
if I stopped feeding the beast, y'all will get bored
and realize you have to move on because to your point,
if if engaging with me is no longer profitable, then
they have to figure something else out. And you know
one thing about us, we stay employed, so I'm not worried.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We always all say all.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Sorts of stuff about my talent and my success or whatever.
The lights somehow stay on.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Exactly that, and the deals keep getting signed, which actually
this is a good pivot to where I wanted to go.
I started out. Okay, first of all, I was not
a writer. I went to school for finance. So oh wow,
this beautiful career that I have was chosen, like I say,
by a higher purpose that finally was like what are
you gonna do? What I'm telling you?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
I will say I know a lot of finance people
who've moved into creative fields.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I always tell them like, creativity is, it's an art,
but it's also a science and mad like it's also
stem at some point. But for like young creatives who
I talked to a lot, they always ask like, how'd
you end up with all this? And I was like,
my advice has always been you start with one thing,
and you get good at one thing, and then you
build off of that one thing. So writing was what
(11:48):
I was good at, and so I was a journalist
and then it was like, well, if I could be
a journalists, then I can write books. Well not on
writing books and somebody offers you a deal to be like, hey,
we want to adapt your book. It's like, okay, well
maybe I can write television and films. Yeah, right, Like
it tentacled off. And so for you, as a creative
who's done a myriad of things and a myriad of spaces.
(12:09):
What advice do you have for the young creative? Because
what I noticed a lot of times with the young
creatives they think success is a microwave and out an oven. Yeah,
and so if it doesn't happen immediately, they jump to
the next thing, They jump to the next thing, and
they never truly find it, or they try to do
multiple things at the same time. What would your advice
be as a og creative in the YouTube days?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
As so one thing that was really transformative for me,
and I will admit this took me many years to
figure out. But setting goals that you can control. So
instead of saying I want to win an Oscar, which
is a great goal, can you write five pages of
(12:55):
your script every week? Can you finish the pilot at
the end of the quarter. Can you shoot a scene
of your short film? Can you take an acting class?
Can you read a pilot a month?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Like? What?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Can you set goals for yourself that help get towards
you know, maybe that big goal of winning an oscar,
But if you want to be a filmmaker, you don't
have to win an Oscar to be a filmmaker. There
are lots of great filmmakers that don't have oscars, and
there's a lot of shitty ones that do have all scars. So,
you know, people to your point about the microwave of
(13:33):
it all. I encounter this a lot of times too,
when I talk to creatives. They're like, how do I
get my podcast beyond the number one chart? How do
I sell a television show? And I'm like, you know,
there's no secret recipe for those things. But if your
version of success is these lofty goals that you never
(13:55):
know when they're gonna happen, you could work ten twenty
thirty years and never sell a television show or be
on the top of the podcast charts or whatever else
those things are, you're gonna get burnt out really fast.
And especially when I'm gonna keep it a buck, your
friends and peers start seeing the success that you want,
(14:16):
you're gonna be like, oh, oh my goodness. You know
what I don't do watch the Emmys. You know why,
because I got a lot of friends winning Emmys. I
love them down, but like, if I get sidetracked by
what y'all are doing, I can't focus on what I'm doing.
And so it's a marathon, not a sprint. And the
(14:38):
other thing is you really have to figure out like
why you're doing it. If you're doing it for the
external stuff, again, it's gonna be really easy to burn out.
But if you're doing it because you have a story
to tell, you really like pushing yourself. You like collaborating,
you like finding For me, and my big one is
telling untold stories. I can do that without anybody else's help.
(15:01):
Help is great, but I don't need to sell a
show or win awards in order to do that. I
can do that with my phone, by myself. So those,
I think would be the two main things I would
say that young creatives need to focus on.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's great, and I oftentimes think about even with myself.
You can want somebody's success, but you may be at
your beginnings while they're in their middles, and some of
them are at their ends, and you're like, oh, I
want this thing that they have, and it's like yeah,
but they're in their middle.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
And sometimes the thing that they have you don't want.
You just you just think you want. I will never forget.
I auditioned for a show once and I was so
heartbroken that I didn't get it, and I just I
did the thing where like I started fantasizing about what
my life was going to be like when I got
this job, and I in my mind, I had already
(15:54):
spent the money. I was already on the red carpet's like,
I was doing all of the things. And then I
came pretty close, but I didn't book the job. And
then years later I became friendly with the person who
did book the job, and I remember we were I
think we were like on vacation and it came up
and I was trying to be so smooth. I was like, oh, yeah,
I remember that. Yeah, sounds familiar. And she was like,
(16:18):
oh what a nightmare that was. And I couldn't cut.
I just was my face I'm sure was giving me away,
but she was just revealing that it was really difficult.
The money wasn't good, she was treated really badly. There
was just all of these nightmare situations were happening there,
and you know, I of course don't wish that on anyone,
(16:41):
but it was so perspective shifting of like, wow, I
was so heartbroken that I didn't get this, and I
was looking at you and I was thinking, God, I
would do anything to be in her shoes. And here
I am now learning that you were miserable and you
weren't even making that much money.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
You know, rejection is sometimes protection. I think about that often, yes,
and it's important to like refocus energy. So sometimes I
also tell that you repurpose envy and jealousy. Yeah, because
that's that's really how you succeed. And it's funny because
there is one person who I remember always talking about
(17:19):
how she had to repurpose her energies when she would
feel envious or jealous, and it was Tyra Banks. There's
actually wow, that's actually one of her biggest clips is
her talking about the jealousy and NBA how to repurpose it.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Listen, there are many things you can say about Tyra,
but one thing you can't say is that she don't
know her shit. She really does. I say something very similar,
I say, stop hating, start studying. And I had many
times what there was somebody I was hating on and
I realized, you know what, I have to be honest
with myself. They are putting in the work. I might
not like it, it might not be for me, but
(17:54):
I'm wasting my time growing through their Instagram and looking
through the comments and said, oh, you know she, of
course she did. Deep Dad. Meanwhile, they're over there working,
So what can I learn from them? How can I
look at the moves that they've made and repurposed them
for myself, you know, kind of like you did with
(18:15):
the book proposal. That was the kick in the pants
that you needed where you were like, if they can
get a book deal, so can I. Guy, right, And
I think about that all the time. When I think
about again the people who were talking about how untalented
I was and how I shouldn't have a show, I'm like,
if you put half of that energy into making your
own thing, you could have a show too.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
You can have a show.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
There's room for all of us.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Speaking of new projects, you recently had a project come out,
a podcast on America's Next Top Model for audible anyone
who still has because we're not going to call it
X no. Absolutely that I feel like it was during
the pandemic when we all were stuck in the house
that there was a resurgence of Top Model clips. Yes,
(19:01):
when all of us who were diehards for the show,
because I used to watch it with my mother and
it was it was a huge hit. Started to see
these clips and be like kind of like, how would
you rewatch Maisha? Maybe this wasn't such a great show,
or like, maybe it's so true.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I don't know. I don't know how we all got
the memo to start rewatching Top Model, but it was
right at the beginning of the pandemic, and that was
really what inspired the show that I hosted for Audible.
We were all rooting for you. The titles inspired by
the iconic moment that stopped the world on its axis
(19:43):
when Tyer was yelling at Tiffany, and that moment in particular,
I think a lot of people were seeing with fresh
eyes of realizing like, oh man, I remember this being like, oh,
I live for the drama, and now as an adult,
I'm looking at it and feeling like, oh, this kind
of feels like and I'm not sure this is fair.
And that was the thing I loved about this podcast
(20:06):
is the opportunity to say, hey, here's a piece of
media that I loved and I still love and still
have fond memories for and also was groundbreaking in a
number of ways. But the reality is, things aren't black
and white, and I think it's too often we want
to say like this thing is all good or this
thing is all bad, and the reality is it's a
(20:27):
little bit of column A, a little bit of Columbe.
And so it was a really beautiful opportunity to rewatch
Top Model and get paid for it, you know, but
also to give the show its flowers, because regardless of
what you think about Tyra, or regardless of what you
think about Top Model, her impact cannot be denied. Y'all
(20:48):
are smising You never even see the show before. Okay,
people from the show are legit celebrities. Ya ya da
Costa Eva the diva. Yeah, first trans girl on a
reality show. I mean, there were so many firsts that
she might not necessarily handled the best, but they were
(21:12):
really important and culture shifting, and the way reality TV
is structured today, a lot of it is because of
the way Top Model was structured, and they were really
the first.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I mean, I think that we should probably do that
with most oh yeah shows and sitcoms.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, I mean most things. The reality is, most things
don't age well, most things don't. They are a time
capsule of the moment. And you know, I really hate
the phrase cancel culture because it just doesn't exist, like
we can't cancel top Model. We can't go back in
time and erase it. And I would never suggest like
(21:51):
rip it off the air, no one should watch it.
I think it's I think it's always a good idea
to reflect on our past and recognize how far we
come and how far we need to continue going. It
was really eye opening for myself to even think about
moments on the show, like models doing blackface. When I
was watching that, I didn't think anything of it. I
(22:12):
was like, oh, yes, she looks amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It was it was the dressing up as homeless people.
That's the one I will never forget, even as even
when I first thought I was like, wait a minute,
something about this, it just doesn't see but you.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Get bought, but get watching it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Because it was like, oh, that's interesting. This week's square
(22:58):
out of Spotlight is Clipping by Sean don. Here's a
short sample. You can listen to the whole track. At
the end of the.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Episode to my home, I told them people.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
When you see you know, really space.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
And now back to my conversation with Francesca Ramsey. So
moving forward, as you said, do you make a conscious
decision to always try to get it right? I find
myself as a creative struggling at the axis of well,
I know what's right because I I do this work
(23:45):
and I'm I research and I study and I know
the right things. But then it's like, I'm a creative too,
and sometimes doing what's wrong is what's right to create
the conversation. So do you find yourself at that access
of strung at times with the creativity.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I am definitely somebody who tries very hard to get
things right. But I also have had to give myself
the grace to acknowledge that I'm always I always going
to know. There's a saying you don't always know what
you don't know, And especially again as culture moves forward
and more people get opportunities to have platforms and speak
(24:25):
on certain issues. Are understanding around certain identities and ideas
change and evolve. So while I do the best I
can in this moment, there's nothing to say that five
years from now, somebody might be like, here's an episode
of for Tusca's podcast where she used this word, and
all I can do is say, oh, wow, thanks for
(24:46):
bringing that to my attention. I'm moving forward. I'm gonna
stop saying that. For example, I used to stay crazy
all the time, and I don't say crazy anymore. Every
once in a while I might slip and say it,
but I really push my self to say, well that's wild,
or that's unbelievable, or my flabbers were guested, Like I
just try to say funny, silly, more creative ways. And
(25:11):
it was. It was not until someone brought to my
attention like, hey, this can be really hurtful to people
with disabilities, people that are neurodivergent. This word has been
used in a way that has oppressed our community for
a long time. And when you say it makes me uncomfortable.
And again, I just try to lead by example to
say like, Okay, my world didn't end. I wasn't like
(25:33):
you are. This is now I need to go on
a world tour because I'm being silenced. I just said okay, yeah, sure,
that makes sense. I get it now. I can't go
back in time and erase every single time I've said it.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I always tell everyone the real work is done in
the edits, MM, the real work is done in the critiques,
Like that's actually when you actually have to do the
real work. And you also brought us something where made
me think about what Zorn Hurston said, which essentially was
like she wished that she do everything before she wrote
a book, but that if she knew everything, that she
(26:10):
may never write the book.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Because why would you why would you need to?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So she had to learn how to write books, knowing
that she may not always get something right, but that
there would be another time that she could correct herself
or write it in a new book. And so I
guess that's a good thing to get out there too,
especially any young creatives who are listening. I hope you
are taking all of this wisdom in because people charge
(26:36):
for this type of stuff, which is interesting because I
feel like as black folks, this is one of the
things that we do the best, is we give the
secrets out. We try to let everybody know ahead of time.
I know, I'm so guilty of that. Something else I
want to ask you. I always talk about how the
imagination could be an interesting thing, and as creatives, we
(26:57):
you know, we have to go to dark places sometimes
with the things we're creating. Some times we go to
joyous places. But how I would say, like our liberation
resides in the imagination because you can imagine a world
that's different and what the other side tries to do
is make you only imagine the worst possibilities that will
happen when they do things. Yeah, and so what is
(27:19):
it that you try to do to try and keep
your imagination? I like to say, keep my imagination healthy.
So what are some healthy ways to protect the health
of the creativity And what do you do for self care?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's a really great question. I saw this talked about
on a podcast recently, and I can't remember who it was,
so please forgive me, but they were talking about doing
instead of catastrophizing, which is what you're talking about, which
again is something I'm very good at coming up with
like the Twister, you know, epic bombs falling from the sky,
(27:54):
things falling apart version. But the best case scenarioing of
it all is like, Okay, I know I'm good at
the catastrophizing part. What if everything worked out? What like,
just for a moment's who's it going to hurt to
think of all of the possibilities that are on the
other side. I call it knitting a sweater. Don't knit
(28:15):
a sweater. You and somebody have maybe not connected, and
our inclination is to start knitting a sweater of all
the reasons why they haven't called me because they don't
like me anymore. They have a new friend, they're upset
about this thing that I did, and none of that
is you don't know. Those are things that you invented.
Give your imagination room to play and come up with,
(28:37):
like the silliest scenarios, come up with, you know, the
most gracious scenarios. Sometimes other people are going through stuff
and has nothing to do with us, and we're projecting
onto them that they're mad at us or they don't
like us or whatever. And sometimes people are like, I
lost my job, girl, That's why I didn't call you.
Like I'm going through stuff. So doing that has been
(28:59):
really helped for me. And then self care for me
looks like I love a massage. I have a great
spa that does like day of appointments, and I'm real good.
I'm like, even if it's just thirty minutes, I'm getting
in there. I love that. I love to travel. I
love to take a social media break, even if it's
(29:20):
only for a week. Sometimes I can't afford to take
more because of work stuff, but time away has been
really good. And then another thing for creative people especially
is art that has nothing to do with your work.
I think is very important because if you are blessed
enough to make your creative talent your job, there comes
(29:43):
a point where you can start to like really hate
your creative thing because suddenly you're creating by committee. It's
like we got to get on a call to talk
about the thing, and then you have to get notes,
and then there's a deadline, and then you have to
do with that, and there's just all of these things
and your brain. For me, like i start to struggle
with being able to create on demand because I'm thinking
(30:07):
about like will the cell are people gonna like it?
Is it gonna go viral? And so it's been so
crucial to have creative outlets that have nothing to do
with anyone else. I don't post it on the internet.
I'm not being paid for it. I don't have a deadline.
No one gets to say if they like it or
they don't like it. It's just for me. I Also,
(30:29):
I have a hot tub. One thing I will do
is be in that hot tub. I'm getting my money's worth.
End of a long day. I'm down there with my
little speaker and just in the bubbly with you know,
a glass of wine or you know, just some friends
hanging out gossiping. So yeah, self care does not have
to be some big involved thing. And something that I
(30:53):
always say is that it has to become a regular
practice even when things are good, so that when things
are challenging, it's easier for you to lean into it.
If you're really going through something, it can be really
hard to be like I'm going to start a self
care practice now, Like, no, start it when you're doing
when you're doing.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Okay, Yeah, routines are important, but I think if you
could just speak really quickly to what has your life
felt like as a as a creative. I know for
me it's a lot of moving parts, a lot of
Net thirties, NET sixties, Net ninetiest my lawyer, NASA sue
(31:32):
type of situations. So there is another side to being
a creative that could be hard and it's not a
steady check.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I recently turned forty one, and I gotta say forty
was a game changer. I feel like I got my superpowers,
my creative brain, just like I always was creative. I
was always I always felt confident as a writer, as
a performer, whatever. But something about like the way I
(32:03):
see the world and the way that I see myself
really crystallized in a way where I really trust myself
and I am less concerned with what other people think
about my work and I'm more concerned with what I
think about my work. I have really committed to creating
opportunities for myself instead of begging other people to give
(32:27):
me an opportunity. I'm just kind of like, if you're interested, great,
If you're not, I'm moving on. Somebody else will be,
you know. And it's been so liberating. And I'm somebody
who I've always been like a very type a planner,
and something I'm really trying to be better about is
(32:48):
just letting go and being in the moment because so
much of the stuff that's happened for my career as
an artist in the past year I never could have anticipated.
So it's like I can waste all the time in
the world ruminating on what I want to happen, and
then someone will be like, hey, you want to host
this show about top model and I was like, what, yeah,
(33:13):
we're thinking about this is perfect for me, you know.
So I feel really really fortunate, and I think a
lot of us rightfully so are feeling nervous about the future.
But for me, the silver lining is this is a
time when artists thrive, like the pressures of the world
(33:37):
and the frustrations of the world and speaking truth to power,
Like all of that comes out of people looking around
them and saying, like things are not right. I need
to do something about this. And I am very heartened
by the fact that so many artists are going to
be They're going to find their superpowers during this time.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I love that. And now back to my conversation with
Francesca Ramsey. So we always end the show, I would say,
(34:27):
what are your three words for twenty twenty five? So
I always pick three words every year, like right at
the start of my year, and sometimes it ends up
being a statement, or sometimes it's three separate words. What
would be your three words for your twenty twenty five
or like I said a statement of three words.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Hey, yeah, I like the three words. I think I
have three words. The first one is abundance and that's
that's a carryover. So I kind of cheated there. But
just thinking about the fact that there are lots of opportunities,
like instead of thinking small, thinking like endless opportunities, endless possibilities,
and then related to abundance delegation, which is something I'm
(35:09):
very bad at but I am slowly getting better at.
I hired someone to film something for me recently, and
I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. And
so if I'm living in abundance, there will be things
I'm not able to do by myself and I will
have to hire someone. I will have to open doors
for other people, I'll have to call other people in
(35:31):
and it's again something I'm not very good at, but
I'm excited to get better at it because I want
to be in a place where I have lots of
things that I'm working on and lots of people that
I'm working with, and I want to be able to
trust myself and them to say, you can take care
of this thing, go do it. And then my third word,
(35:54):
Oh my god, I think I already lost my third word.
I got on such a tangent about all was delegating.
I'm gonna do maybe I just have two words.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Listen, Okay, the remix the remix, Francheska. I want to
thank you for being here today, for its founding so
much wisdom, and just for being someone who uses your
words to help us in this fight of the thing
make call life.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Oh thank you so much. I feel similarly about you,
and I'm so excited for you with the show, and
I'm just honored that I got to be a part
of it.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yes, thank you. And that was Francesca Ramsey. Here's a
quote to leave you with. I love myself when I
am laughing and then again when I am looking mean
and impressive. Those words were given to us by the
(36:45):
iconic Zora No Hurston, who was one of the greatest anthropologists, writers,
thought provokers, and leaders during the Harlem Renaissance and the
Negative Movement. She wrote those words in a letter to
her close friend, the photographer Carl Vin, referring to a
series of photos he had taken of her back in
nineteen thirty four. When zord and Hurston died in nineteen sixty,
(37:08):
she had published more books than any black woman in history.
She was often attacked by her critics, both black and white,
both on the left and on the right, for unorthodox
views and her fiery personality. She was truly an independent
thinker and one of a kind. And now in full
(37:32):
this is clipping by Sean Don Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
I think gonna buck that bit you pass into my home,
I told him, people, when you've seen you, no, I
think niggers home.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Took quick to get the crypt and get the trip
you got to get in my bad.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I bully don't have no feelings ever gotta do too
much of them in my thumbal pitch and ship could
have been just chi could have been chuffled quick to
get the crypt and I get the trip to get
in my bad. I bully don't have no feelings, never
gotta do.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Too much of them in my thumbal pitch and hit
could have been just rip cut a bit, chuffled, click,
put it in the bad man, fuck with the plush.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I don't never take no louse number one kick throwing
nigga on the bouts in the fetal bricks.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
From shopping their broths. These nicks don't like me. I'm
a bitch. Niggas want to fight me, get hit it.
That's hiking, stepping on. That's like I'm hiking.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Really don't want that. You just want to say so
it is macause that cannot be me getting understanding of
their copy for please get back to the streets of
their opinion to stay big body Moore and you believe
it's a dummy. Got a little cribs, a little bummy
into the pain, this little funny steven on the time,
and I stick it in the tummy and then I'd
be done.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
I can't fuck with them and company. These pictures be
sucking them and company, these pictures. But number just a bitch.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
I ain't giving no not of them purping niggas get
a heist, see some juicy juice or a high seat.
People in the pocus on ice seas took me in
my eyes on high seed.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
I'm I'm out about you broke the niggash his coup.
What is that about? Things?
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Really ain't about the ship bitches out on my dead
thought he was on the way back to the clean
to the lot and hit that ship. That that ship
I ain't gonna lie, I thought the fiction, and passing
to my homie, I told him, keeping lokey when you
see me, don't no, I told me not trust you
just send me slicking squally owe me. That's to get
my space. This thing some of Loki, I ain't gonna lie,
(39:32):
I thought, the pitch and.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Passing to my homie. I told him keep it low
key when you see me.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Don't no, I don't not trusting, but just send me
slickers c really owe me proke that psh to get
a space.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
This sink some of Loki ookee shot like.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Truf.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
I'm pretty to get the clipping, the bit you get
the stripped get in my bad now. I fully don't
have no feelings. I gotta do too much of them
in my thumb. Could have been just could have been
shuffle clip quick to get the clip and get the
strip in my bad. I bully don't have no feeling
this stuff. I gotta do too much of them in
(40:18):
my thom could have been could have been chuffled clip.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
I ain't gonna lie. I fucked the bitch and passed
him to my homie, So I told him keep it
low key when you see me.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
You know I told you trust send me slickers, really
owe me jist space to say something.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
A low key.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Fighting Words is production of iHeart Podcast in partnership with
Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced
by Charlotte Morley E. Second producers are myself and tweaty
p G guar Song with Adam Pinke and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by kole Vas Banbianna and myself. Original music by
(41:09):
Cole Vaas. This episode was edited and scored by Max
Michael Milller. Our ieart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel.
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