February 17, 2025 • 26 mins
🎧 Episode Overview
Ever wondered what it really takes to be a doula?
Spoiler alert: it’s not just holding hands and cooing over babies!
In this episode of Grace in the Grind, we sit down with Ayla Hartless, a birth and postpartum doula, childbirth educator, and breastfeeding coach, to dive into the realities of birth work. From navigating a largely unregulated industry to supporting families through the highs and lows of childbirth and postpartum, Ayla shares her journey and the unexpected challenges of being a doula.
We also tackle limiting beliefs, the importance of community, and how Ayla transitioned from working in a nursing home to full-time birth coaching. If you’re curious about what it means to truly support new parents or need some inspiration to pursue your passion, this episode is for you!
☕ Grab your favorite drink, settle in, and let’s get into the grace and the grind of birth work!
💡 Key Takeaways from This Episode
✅ What It Takes to Be a Doula
- The realities of working in an unregulated industry
- Why certifications aren’t always required, but heart and compassion are
- How doulas support both moms and families beyond the delivery room
✅ Overcoming Limiting Beliefs & Finding Your Calling
- How Ayla knew she wanted to work in birth support from a young age
- The fears and doubts that held her back—and how she overcame them
- Why her work in a nursing home shaped her approach to birth coaching
✅ Challenges & Burnout in the Doula World
- The emotional and physical demands of the job (52-hour births, anyone?)
- Why many doulas face compassion fatigue and burnout
- How mentorship, boundaries, and fair compensation prevent exhaustion
✅ Facing Controversy & Finding Your People
- Why the doula industry is surprisingly controversial
- How Ayla navigated criticism and rejection for her faith-based approach
- The importance of finding the right community and staying true to your values
💬 Wisdom from Ayla Hartless
"Find community. Surround yourself with people who inspire you, and pull others up alongside you. We grow best together." – Ayla Hartless
📚 Resources Mentioned
📖 Doula & Motherhood Support by Ayla:
🔍 Further Learning:
- The Thompson Method for breastfeeding education
- Exploring the role of emotional intelligence in postpartum recovery
🎧 Connect with Ayla Hartless
🌍 Website: BornMotherhood.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Grace and theGrind, the podcast where we dive
deep into the journeys ofheart centered and purpose driven
leaders and entrepreneurs.
We're here to equip andencourage you on your journey.
So let's get started and findthe grace within the grind.
This is Grace in the Grind.
And now your host, Jim Burgoon.
(00:22):
Welcome to Grace in the Grindwhere we're here to tell the inspiring
stories behind the story ofsome of entrepreneurs, most successful
people and today, an oldfriend of mine, Ayla Heartless, is
here today and we're going tohave just a great conversation about
what she does and how some ofthe struggles she has been through
to get where she is.
Welcome to the show, Ayla.
(00:43):
Good morning, Jeff.
Thank you so much for having me.
It is great for you to be here.
Take the next 60 to 90 secondsand just let the audience know what
you do.
I am a birth doula and apostpartum doula.
I'm also a childbirth educatorand a Thompson method breastfeeding
educator.
So in short, I'm like a birthcoach and a best friend for moms
(01:06):
in the early motherhood season.
Awesome.
So what is first and foremostout of curiosity, what does it take
to become a doula?
Honestly, it's not that hard.
There are trainings andcertifications and the length of
that process is really up toyou depending on the state that you
live in.
Most states aren't superregulated in this industry, but what
(01:28):
it really takes is heart,compassion and dedication to really
walking alongside women andtheir families in the trenches and
the joys and everything inbetween in motherhood.
So there.
This brings up two questionsfor me.
First and foremost, we'regoing to dive into what you, what
made you want to become a doula.
You said something there thatjust piqued my interest.
(01:50):
It says most states aren't regulated.
So if the listener is here andsays I'd love to have a doula, how
do they trust you guys ifyou're not regulated?
Unpack that a little bit.
Yeah.
So working as a non medicalprofessional within like the health
care, usually everything inhealthcare is very regulated.
I actually used to work at anursing home and it's super duper
(02:12):
regulated.
But what we do is we comealongside and we're hired by the
families.
And it's one of those thingsif the government gets in it, which
we have some now some statesare starting to offer community doulas
and you have to go through thestate and be certified through the
state to be able to acceptMedicaid and things like that.
But in that, then you havesome oversight from the state, and
(02:34):
they're telling you what youneed to do, what you shouldn't do.
And being a doula is trulybeing an advocate and someone for
just for that family withoutthe overreach of a hospital system
or battling with insurance orthe stuff that happens whenever you
get into those things.
So because we're notregulated, there isn't a lot of oversight.
You really don't know unlessyou vet your doula, you ask for recommendations,
(02:58):
and really get to know her asa person.
You really don't know.
So those families have to dotheir homework.
And most of my referrals comefrom former clients in word of mouth,
which is really awesome.
Yeah.
So then what drove you or whatwas the journey for you to become
a doula?
What does that look like?
Did you wake up one morningand be like, I'm a mom.
I love being a mom.
I want to help other people bebetter moms.
(03:20):
Unpack some of that a little bit.
Okay?
So honestly, in 8th gradehealth class, they start talking
about, this is how babies are born.
And everyone was like, oh, oh,my gosh, that's gross.
Or that's terrifying, or whatever.
And I remember sitting in that8th grade health class and thinking,
oh, my gosh, that is thecoolest thing I have ever heard.
(03:41):
What a miracle.
But of course, I didn't tellanyone that because I didn't want
to be the weird kid.
And so I just shoved it down.
And I had a lot of limitingbeliefs about myself and things like
that growing up.
And I just.
I always wanted to work inhealthcare with moms and babies,
but I just.
I don't know, I felt like Icouldn't do it for a very long time
(04:02):
until I had my babies.
And I had amazing birth experiences.
I worked in, like I saidearlier, a local nursing home.
And my job was basically to bean advocate for people within the
nursing home system.
To really almost be like, wedidn't call it that, but really to
come alongside them and loveon them and see them as whole people,
(04:25):
help them navigate providerrelationships and resident rights
and all these things.
And I loved it so much.
And when I had my third babyin Covid in 2020, I've had good birth
experiences overall.
But during one of my birthexperiences with my second, one of
the nurses said, thank you somuch for letting us be part of your
(04:45):
birth.
We have never witnessed awoman just have her baby without
assistance, trusting her body.
And I thought, what a weirdthing to be in healthcare.
And to be a labor and deliverynurse and not see, like, normal birthday
without interruptions andwithout medical intervention and
complications, that's scaryand sad to me.
(05:07):
And so after 2020, when I hadmy third kid, I just really dove
in and I got brave, and I knewI didn't want to go back to the nursing
home and work, and so Istarted doing trainings, and I spent
the next year learningeverything I could about birth work
and breastfeeding and figuringout how to do this work.
So there was a lot you justsaid, okay, so limiting beliefs.
(05:32):
I didn't think I could do it.
Then there's the.
You hid what you love becauseyou didn't want to be the weird kid.
And I totally get that.
I was bullied as a kid, so Itotally get not wanting to be the
weird kid.
And then.
And then you're talking aboutyou went into a nursing home and
now you're back in.
Now you actually do the thingthat you wanted to do back in eighth
grade.
So what took you so long to.
(05:52):
To get to the place that youactually wanted to be?
Were you in eighth grade?
Took you a number of years.
Three births.
And how did you get over thelimiting beliefs that kept you from
that?
I think working in the nursing home.
It sounds so weird to be,like, working in nursing home with
people and holding their handsas they pass away and building those
(06:12):
relationships.
It sounds weird to say that'swhat brought me into birth work,
but it really was.
I remember feeling so close tothese people who didn't have support
and that they desperatelyneeded support to navigate a medical
system where they were put ina position where they were vulnerable
and they didn't have anyone towalk alongside them and help them
navigate it.
And that was my job, was toreally know them as people.
(06:34):
And so I remember beingpregnant with my second, and I would
have these little ladies thatcouldn't remember their names.
They couldn't remember theirchildren's names, but I would walk
in with my pregnant belly, andthey would be like, oh, my gosh,
you're here.
And they'd be so glad to see me.
And then they would tell meabout their motherhood journey.
They would tell me about whenthey were pregnant and when they
had their babies, and thissuper special part of their life
(06:58):
was one of the few things thatthey really could remember in detail,
and they wanted to share their stories.
And so between that and mypersonal experiences, I was like,
oh, my gosh, like, this is so important.
Like.
Like this season in our livesas women.
And as like men, as fathers,like, it deserves attention and it
deserves care and support.
(07:18):
And so I think I finally justbelieved that I could do it.
And I think I got upset enoughwith a system that was not listening
to women and not honoringtheir choices.
And a lot of the lies aroundbirth that it has to be horrible
and awful and it doesn't.
I've had beautiful birthexperiences and I've helped other
women have those experiences.
And so I think I just got to apoint where the fear of not doing
(07:41):
what I'm supposed to do isbigger than the fear that it might
not work out.
I love that.
That's powerful and.
But it took you for so long.
So where did that belief saysI can't do this?
Where did that come from?
I think it probably childhoodtrauma, honestly, just I was a kid
that was too scared to talk to anyone.
I remember my first gradeteacher saying to my parents, oh,
(08:02):
Ayla's such a good kid.
Like, she never talks, she'sso quiet.
But it was because I wasterrified of everyone.
I didn't want to talk becausewhat if they didn't like me or what
if I said something stupid orthings that probably weren't even
true that I just believed.
So what were some things that,that really helped you in that?
I know you got more afraid ofnot doing it as opposed to doing
(08:23):
it.
That's a beautiful thing.
But you lived in this fear forwhat, 10, 15 years, 20 years almost
maybe.
But what were some of thethings like, what were like some
breakthrough moments?
Let's go through somebreakthrough moments because I think
that's going to really helpthe listener because there's a lot
of listeners right now who aredealing with limiting beliefs, dealing
with this fact of I want to,but I can't.
(08:46):
So walk through maybe one ortwo breakthrough moments that says,
got you to really say, okay, I can.
Yeah.
So when I worked at thenursing home, I was invited.
We were going through thiswhole like movement of culture change
and I got invited to be on thecommunity to move from such a medicalized
model of care to more personcentered care, which was what I loved.
(09:07):
And so I got invited onto thisleadership committee and I think
that started to build myconfidence that okay, maybe I am
doing something right.
And that didn't go perfectlyor anything, but it really was a
moment where I was like, okay,like maybe I can, maybe I am capable
and maybe I do have somethingto offer.
And then those interactionswith my residents also boosted that.
(09:31):
The other thing that made ahuge difference was being around
other women who were moms inthe same season of me like that I
was and building deeprelationships and connections with
other women and having peoplesaying, oh my gosh, like you are
doing a good job, like you area good mom even when I didn't feel
(09:51):
like it.
And so I want to be thatperson that comes in to see the postpartum
mom and she's blurry eyed fromno sleep and she's frustrated because
her whole life has turnedupside down and she doesn't feel
like herself.
I want to be the person thatcomes in and says, you can do this.
I believe in you even when youdon't believe in you.
Here are some tips and trips.
(10:13):
Let me help you get back onyour feet and remind you that you
are a good mom.
And I think that's where thepassion and the courage comes from
is I don't want people to feelthe way I did.
I want to help them, I want toencourage them.
I want them to feel likethey're good moms.
And yeah, man, that's awesome.
So what would you say to thelistener that would help them collapse
the time between when theyfeel like they're called to something
(10:36):
and when they actually do it?
If we were to say anythingthat collapsed that space of time,
what would you say to them?
Just do it.
Be brave.
You're going to look back andyou maybe it won't work out, but
you're going to learn thingsalong the way.
You're going to grow as aperson along the way and then you
pick.
If it doesn't work out, get upand try something else or try again.
(10:58):
I've never, I've sat with alot of people as they've passed away
and I've gotten to know a lotof people at the end of their lives
and the ones who tried and theones who out went out and did the
things that they wanted to doand they took the risks.
They're not the ones that aresitting there with regret.
It was the people who didn'twho let life pass them by and who
(11:21):
hoped for bigger things butdidn't actually put any effort towards
it.
Those were the people that hada lot of regret.
And I don't want to be like that.
And so I would say just go do it.
Go try.
That is great advice.
So let's switch some gears.
And so now we're gonna.
Let's talk about challengesthat you face getting into this.
Let's talk about some.
Did you face burnout?
One thing I do want to askwhich this fascinates me is the concept
(11:45):
of compassion fatigue.
Did you face that?
Because it's hard when youhave to say goodbye to a lot of people,
like being in that realm ofthe nursing home.
It's.
You're constantly sayinggoodbye, which is so funny that you
went full circle to thebirthing side.
Now you're constantly sayinghello instead of goodbye.
So that's a really cool thing.
(12:06):
Did you face compassionfatigue or what did that look like?
Burnout?
Any of that while you were there?
Absolutely.
I loved my job, but it washard loving people who.
They loved me back.
But they can't remember your name.
They don't remember.
They remembered who I wasbecause they loved me as a person,
but it was exhausting in themost beautiful way.
(12:26):
I left because I had a babythe same week that Covid shut everything
down.
And I just didn't go backafter Covid.
And I have a lot of friendsthat worked in the nursing home.
And I'm so grateful that theLord pulled me out before I had to
walk through that, because itwas really hard for those individuals.
And I'm just grateful that hepulled me out when he did, and he
(12:46):
pointed me in a new direction.
So.
Yeah.
So then how did you.
Or how did you.
Or how do you take care of your.
Yourself?
Like, the self care, theemotional intelligence to make sure
that you rebat re from theplaces where you've poured out so
much?
What do you do personally?
Yeah.
So that's a big thing in doula work.
I was actually talking with adoula friend the other day, and she
(13:07):
was like, I feel like I'mburning out.
And I was like, let's look atthe big picture.
How many clients are youtaking on?
What is truly your capacity?
And then are you being fairlycompensated, or are you giving because
you love the work so much?
Are you giving away the workfor free?
Are you offering to do thesebirths for free?
Are you offering to do too much?
(13:30):
Do you need to increase yourprices so that you feel like your
time is being compensated andthat your family feels like your
time is being compensated?
And she was like, no.
And so that's where I start,is I've tried to find mentorship
from other people in the doulaarena that are doing really well,
that they're thriving becausethey have a good business model.
(13:52):
My mom kept telling me incollege, you need to take a business
class.
And I said, you're insane.
I'm not doing that because Inever want to have a business.
Here I am.
Listen to Your mom, guys.
But yeah.
So, like, really building out,like, remembering that it's not just
loving people well, and it is.
We're compassionate, and wewant to love our clients really well.
But also, I need to take careof myself and my family, and if I
(14:14):
can't do that, I can't do myjob well.
So beyond the business modelside, what do you look for in a good
mentor?
Because you mentionedmentorship with the doula, what are
you looking for in a mentor?
Just separate, a little bit.
Separate from an actual goodbusiness model?
Yeah, I look for someone thatwe have the same values.
Faith is super important tome, and it's super important in my
(14:34):
business.
So I.
When I first got into doulawork, I gravitated towards, like,
the business side of thetrainings, which was great.
But then I found that itdidn't have any spiritual support.
It didn't have any.
We didn't agree on thefundamentals of life.
So it was super challenging.
And so over time, I found someother doulas that, you know that
(14:57):
we have the same beliefs.
And so I'll call her even at along birth, sometimes I'll call my
doula bestie, who lives allthe way in Georgia and I live in
Virginia, and I'll say, hey,this is what's going on.
Can you pray for me?
Can you pray for this client?
Like.
Like, we just need somebreakthrough, and that has been the
biggest thing for me.
(15:17):
I like that term.
Doula bestie.
I like that.
Not heard that one.
I need.
I need a business bestie.
Because if you can have adoula bestie, I can have a business
bestie.
So we got to create those.
So I really think that's the key.
Yeah, it is.
It really is.
Relationships are super key.
This part of what I do in thebusiness that I have is all about
building some things,relational, emotional intelligence
(15:40):
around relationships, becauseyou can't grow without relationships.
So with that being said, Iwant to get into challenges.
Like, when you first start.
Started this, Some of thechallenges you faced, and then move
into some of the challengesyou came up against from people from
different things.
So let's start with the.
What were some of thechallenges you faced when you first
started this app, started this business?
(16:01):
I think I just thought that,oh, I'm gonna be a doula, and I'm
gonna go to these births, andI'm gonna hold these mama's hands,
or I'll go snuggle babiespostpartum, and it's gonna be so
sweet, and it's Gonna be like,so easy and what a way to do life.
And it is.
But also there's a flip side, right?
(16:22):
Like, I've been at births forup to 52 hours and wow.
Yeah.
So I'm all in, which is greatfor my clients, but what happens
with my family?
I have small kids, so what dothey do?
Who's.
I have to have a plan inplace, who gets them to school, who
makes sure that the check goesin for their lunch money stuff.
(16:42):
Little small mom things thatadd up.
And thankfully I've had asupport system come alongside me.
But I know that figuring thatout was a challenge.
And it still is some days, andthat's a big challenge for other
doulas is we're on call allthe time and just figuring out how
to navigate life and find thebalance between work when you're
(17:03):
on call 24 7.
And so, yeah, that wasprobably the first big challenge.
Okay, so what were some of thetensions you faced?
Did people accept you?
Did you run into any, like,negative feedback?
What were some of those challenges?
So overall, in my localcommunity, I was pretty well accepted.
I had a group of peoplecheering me on, which has been super
(17:26):
awesome.
One of the things thathappened that I didn't expect was
that doula work, it's acontroversial world if you're coming
from a faith basedperspective, like I am.
And so I remember, like, I hadposted on the, like, a group Facebook
page that, hey, doula sisters.
(17:46):
Because most doulas are women.
Like, we're walking along,it's women walking alongside women.
And I posted that and I.
Apparently it was the wrongthing to post because I had a whole
bunch of people messaging methat was non inclusive and that it
was hateful and that I need tobe more considerate and thoughtful.
(18:06):
And I just never.
I was so shocked.
And then my company's name iscalled Born Motherhood because I
really believe that that'spart of how God created women, is
to be mothers.
Whether it's spiritual mothersor physical mothers or adoptive mothers,
like, that's part of our nature.
And I had no idea it would be controversial.
But in this Facebook thread,it came up like, how dare you just
(18:32):
say that only women could be mothers?
And things like that?
And I was just, I was shocked.
And it mentally andemotionally, it just shocked me.
And.
And it made me like, think,like, what in the world is going
on?
Am I in the right business?
And that confidence took alittle hit and then I pivoted and
realized, like, I just need tofind my people.
Maybe those aren't my people.
(18:52):
And that's okay, that's.
So do you find that there'smore tension or more pushback from
people who are faith based orpeople who are non faith based?
Talking to you like, where doyou find the most pushback?
I think it's non faith based.
And it's just been interestingto navigate that gently and with
compassion and with grace andstill trying to love people, because
(19:13):
that's the foundation of whatI do, is I'm trying to love people.
I'm sorry.
No, go ahead.
So loving people.
So this creates a two part question.
So number one, how did you.
Now I know said you hit the.
The confidence in that, buthow did you navigate the re.
The feelings of rejection inthe midst of that?
I think I just bowed outhonestly of that situation and was
(19:35):
like, okay, sorry.
I think I wrote I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to offend.
And I just took a few stepsback and reevaluated.
Okay, may.
I originally thought I couldbe a doula for anyone, and now I'm
like, I've realized, like,it's okay if I'm not everyone's cup
of tea.
Like, the right people willfind me and there will be doulas
for those other people thatdon't have the same beliefs as I
(19:57):
am.
There are a million doulas out there.
And so I really feel like it'sa very relational business and the
right people will find you.
And so it's just the more I doit, the easier I bounce back.
I love that.
So how do you find, or did youfind that maybe in the beginning
versus now that youinternalized a lot of those messages
(20:18):
or did you always have theright skill set to just bounce it
off?
Oh, I absolutely internalizedit previously.
It's gotten better the moreyou do this work.
And I think business ingeneral, you build a little resilience
and a little you just yourself worth, I think shifts.
I think listening to podcastslike this and hearing from other
(20:39):
business owners and otherpeople that have been through stuff
and they keep going, I thinkthat is huge.
I think that's encouraging.
Like just knowing that you'renot alone in it, you're not the only
one that might be feelingthose things and then, you know,
like speaking truth to myself,I think that's huge.
Okay.
Like, I was not incorrect.
It may not have been perceivedthat way by everyone.
(21:01):
And I don't have to prove thatI was right or wrong or anything.
I can just love them well andkeep Moving on and just keep moving.
I love that.
Keep one foot in front of the others.
And I appreciate the shout outfor the show because that's why we
started the show is there's somany podcasts out there that are
really devoted to businesstips and things like that, but there's
not very many that talk aboutstories behind the stories.
(21:21):
And this is where grace andthe grind comes in.
And so I appreciate you.
I appreciate the conversationwe've been having.
I've got a couple morequestions and then we're going to
land the proverbial plane forthis particular episode.
What is.
So we're looking in here.
I've got my notes in front of me.
Controversial, first and foremost.
I didn't know duels were controversial.
That was.
(21:41):
That blows my mind.
I get it.
Because people are interestingnowadays, so I get it.
But controversial, I.
Ayla, I was not expecting youto be controversial.
I wasn't either.
Honestly, I'm pretty chill.
Yeah, you are pretty chill.
I'm like, man.
So we've gone on a longjourney from the 8 year, 8 8th grader,
(22:02):
the 13, 14 year old who hadhigh hopes but ran to the person
who's working in the nursinghome, saying goodbye, doing those
things to now.
What you do now is does thedoula, the convergence of all of
this?
And the question then becomes,what is next for you?
What does this look like downthe road?
(22:22):
I'm super excited about this.
So when I started doula work,in the back of my head had this thought
like, oh, it would be so coolto one day like build a group of
other doulas and mentor otherdoulas and have an agency.
And honestly, like, that waslike my 10 or 15 year plan and that
would move me towards retirement.
(22:44):
And I never really said muchabout it to anyone and I was almost
a little afraid to dream it myself.
But the Lord is very funny.
And over the past six months,I've had multiple women come up to
me and say, how do I do whatyou do?
I want to do what you do.
How do I do that?
And so this 10 or 15 year planthat I had, the Lord very quickly
(23:07):
accelerated it.
And now we have an agency ofmyself and two other doulas.
And so now I don't have towalk in the work alone.
I have other women that havecome alongside me.
And so we get to provide thatdoula bestie atmosphere.
We're learning together, we'regrowing together, we're supporting
families together, which meansthat we get to do even more of this.
Amazing work.
(23:27):
We can have more women that goand sit with moms postpartum and
we do their dishes and we talkthem through postpartum anxiety and
postpartum depression and wetalk about all the things that no
one wants to talk about.
We can teach more birthclasses and we can do more lactation
education and lactationsupport and really continue meeting
mamas where they are andhelping them get the best start.
(23:49):
And that's beautiful.
It's the dual of besties.
I still love that term and Ithink that's great.
If you think about it like Ihad this 10, 15 year plan.
My plans aren't often what God wants.
And so my when I say I havethis 10 to 15 year plan, it's often
in fear.
And so here we are in six months.
You've already have youragency started.
So we're definitely going tobe praying and supporting you in
(24:11):
whatever we can do there.
Last two questions.
First and foremost at thelistener knows as they make it to
this part of the show where wedo a wisdom bomb, hashtag, wisdombomb.
If you are on Facebook, if youwant to look at all the previous
wisdom bombs, what is a wisdombomb or a portable truth that you
can leave with the listenerthat says, this is something I can
apply to my life today, whatwould you say to them?
(24:32):
I would say find community.
Find people that you can lookup to that you can be inspired by
and also find people that youcan help walk alongside on the journey.
Because we don't want to justI think in our culture in America,
we would try to do thingsalone and I tried to do things alone
for a very long time.
(24:53):
And I was unfulfilled and Ididn't grow.
I wasn't challenged, I wasn't inspired.
And I think that's where a lotof this personal and professional
growth has come from, isfinding other people to walk alongside
and then pulling peoplealongside me as well.
And that would be my advice,is go find community.
Go find a mentor.
Be a mentor and we can allgrow together.
(25:15):
Absolutely.
So how can people find you?
So I'm on Facebook at Born Motherhood.
You can also check me out onmy website@www.for.com.
So yeah, so I first andforemost thank you coming on the
show.
We appreciate you being here.
It's such a greatconversation, especially into the
world of motherhood and whatit like, what it means to work with
moms.
So thank you, Ayla, for beinghere with us.
(25:36):
Thank you so much, Jim.
I appreciate you.
And so to you, the listenerwho have made it this far in the
episode.
We just want to thank you forlistening and being faithful to the
Grace and the Grind as we tellthe stories that inspire.
With that being said, whateverplatform you are watching this on
or listening to, make sure tohit the in the comments.
Let us know some questions ifyou have them.
Maybe do a subscribe or followand review us.
(26:00):
We appreciate you for being here.
Catch the either previousepisode you've missed or the next
episode that comes out everyMonday every week.
With that being said you havebeen listening to Grace and the Grind
and I appreciate you being here.
We'll see you on the next one.
This has been Grace and the Grind.
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
If you did, make sure to likerate and review and we'll be back
(26:23):
soon but in the meantime findus on social media.
Eadwithjam Take care ofyourself and we'll see you next time
on Grace in the Grind.
Welcome to Grace and theGrind, the podcast where we dive
deep into the journeys ofheart centered and purpose driven
leaders and entrepreneurs.
We're here to equip andencourage you on your journey.
So let's get started and findthe grace within the grind.
This is Grace in the Grind.
And now your host, Jim Burgoon.
(00:22):
Welcome to Grace in the Grindwhere we're here to tell the inspiring
stories behind the story ofsome of entrepreneurs, most successful
people and today, an oldfriend of mine, Ayla Heartless, is
here today and we're going tohave just a great conversation about
what she does and how some ofthe struggles she has been through
to get where she is.
Welcome to the show, Ayla.
(00:43):
Good morning, Jeff.
Thank you so much for having me.
It is great for you to be here.
Take the next 60 to 90 secondsand just let the audience know what
you do.
I am a birth doula and apostpartum doula.
I'm also a childbirth educatorand a Thompson method breastfeeding
educator.
So in short, I'm like a birthcoach and a best friend for moms
(01:06):
in the early motherhood season.
Awesome.
So what is first and foremostout of curiosity, what does it take
to become a doula?
Honestly, it's not that hard.
There are trainings andcertifications and the length of
that process is really up toyou depending on the state that you
live in.
Most states aren't superregulated in this industry, but what
(01:28):
it really takes is heart,compassion and dedication to really
walking alongside women andtheir families in the trenches and
the joys and everything inbetween in motherhood.
So there.
This brings up two questionsfor me.
First and foremost, we'regoing to dive into what you, what
made you want to become a doula.
You said something there thatjust piqued my interest.
(01:50):
It says most states aren't regulated.
So if the listener is here andsays I'd love to have a doula, how
do they trust you guys ifyou're not regulated?
Unpack that a little bit.
Yeah.
So working as a non medicalprofessional within like the health
care, usually everything inhealthcare is very regulated.
I actually used to work at anursing home and it's super duper
(02:12):
regulated.
But what we do is we comealongside and we're hired by the
families.
And it's one of those thingsif the government gets in it, which
we have some now some statesare starting to offer community doulas
and you have to go through thestate and be certified through the
state to be able to acceptMedicaid and things like that.
But in that, then you havesome oversight from the state, and
(02:34):
they're telling you what youneed to do, what you shouldn't do.
And being a doula is trulybeing an advocate and someone for
just for that family withoutthe overreach of a hospital system
or battling with insurance orthe stuff that happens whenever you
get into those things.
So because we're notregulated, there isn't a lot of oversight.
You really don't know unlessyou vet your doula, you ask for recommendations,
(02:58):
and really get to know her asa person.
You really don't know.
So those families have to dotheir homework.
And most of my referrals comefrom former clients in word of mouth,
which is really awesome.
Yeah.
So then what drove you or whatwas the journey for you to become
a doula?
What does that look like?
Did you wake up one morningand be like, I'm a mom.
I love being a mom.
I want to help other people bebetter moms.
(03:20):
Unpack some of that a little bit.
Okay?
So honestly, in 8th gradehealth class, they start talking
about, this is how babies are born.
And everyone was like, oh, oh,my gosh, that's gross.
Or that's terrifying, or whatever.
And I remember sitting in that8th grade health class and thinking,
oh, my gosh, that is thecoolest thing I have ever heard.
(03:41):
What a miracle.
But of course, I didn't tellanyone that because I didn't want
to be the weird kid.
And so I just shoved it down.
And I had a lot of limitingbeliefs about myself and things like
that growing up.
And I just.
I always wanted to work inhealthcare with moms and babies,
but I just.
I don't know, I felt like Icouldn't do it for a very long time
(04:02):
until I had my babies.
And I had amazing birth experiences.
I worked in, like I saidearlier, a local nursing home.
And my job was basically to bean advocate for people within the
nursing home system.
To really almost be like, wedidn't call it that, but really to
come alongside them and loveon them and see them as whole people,
(04:25):
help them navigate providerrelationships and resident rights
and all these things.
And I loved it so much.
And when I had my third babyin Covid in 2020, I've had good birth
experiences overall.
But during one of my birthexperiences with my second, one of
the nurses said, thank you somuch for letting us be part of your
(04:45):
birth.
We have never witnessed awoman just have her baby without
assistance, trusting her body.
And I thought, what a weirdthing to be in healthcare.
And to be a labor and deliverynurse and not see, like, normal birthday
without interruptions andwithout medical intervention and
complications, that's scaryand sad to me.
(05:07):
And so after 2020, when I hadmy third kid, I just really dove
in and I got brave, and I knewI didn't want to go back to the nursing
home and work, and so Istarted doing trainings, and I spent
the next year learningeverything I could about birth work
and breastfeeding and figuringout how to do this work.
So there was a lot you justsaid, okay, so limiting beliefs.
(05:32):
I didn't think I could do it.
Then there's the.
You hid what you love becauseyou didn't want to be the weird kid.
And I totally get that.
I was bullied as a kid, so Itotally get not wanting to be the
weird kid.
And then.
And then you're talking aboutyou went into a nursing home and
now you're back in.
Now you actually do the thingthat you wanted to do back in eighth
grade.
So what took you so long to.
(05:52):
To get to the place that youactually wanted to be?
Were you in eighth grade?
Took you a number of years.
Three births.
And how did you get over thelimiting beliefs that kept you from
that?
I think working in the nursing home.
It sounds so weird to be,like, working in nursing home with
people and holding their handsas they pass away and building those
(06:12):
relationships.
It sounds weird to say that'swhat brought me into birth work,
but it really was.
I remember feeling so close tothese people who didn't have support
and that they desperatelyneeded support to navigate a medical
system where they were put ina position where they were vulnerable
and they didn't have anyone towalk alongside them and help them
navigate it.
And that was my job, was toreally know them as people.
(06:34):
And so I remember beingpregnant with my second, and I would
have these little ladies thatcouldn't remember their names.
They couldn't remember theirchildren's names, but I would walk
in with my pregnant belly, andthey would be like, oh, my gosh,
you're here.
And they'd be so glad to see me.
And then they would tell meabout their motherhood journey.
They would tell me about whenthey were pregnant and when they
had their babies, and thissuper special part of their life
(06:58):
was one of the few things thatthey really could remember in detail,
and they wanted to share their stories.
And so between that and mypersonal experiences, I was like,
oh, my gosh, like, this is so important.
Like.
Like this season in our livesas women.
And as like men, as fathers,like, it deserves attention and it
deserves care and support.
(07:18):
And so I think I finally justbelieved that I could do it.
And I think I got upset enoughwith a system that was not listening
to women and not honoringtheir choices.
And a lot of the lies aroundbirth that it has to be horrible
and awful and it doesn't.
I've had beautiful birthexperiences and I've helped other
women have those experiences.
And so I think I just got to apoint where the fear of not doing
(07:41):
what I'm supposed to do isbigger than the fear that it might
not work out.
I love that.
That's powerful and.
But it took you for so long.
So where did that belief saysI can't do this?
Where did that come from?
I think it probably childhoodtrauma, honestly, just I was a kid
that was too scared to talk to anyone.
I remember my first gradeteacher saying to my parents, oh,
(08:02):
Ayla's such a good kid.
Like, she never talks, she'sso quiet.
But it was because I wasterrified of everyone.
I didn't want to talk becausewhat if they didn't like me or what
if I said something stupid orthings that probably weren't even
true that I just believed.
So what were some things that,that really helped you in that?
I know you got more afraid ofnot doing it as opposed to doing
(08:23):
it.
That's a beautiful thing.
But you lived in this fear forwhat, 10, 15 years, 20 years almost
maybe.
But what were some of thethings like, what were like some
breakthrough moments?
Let's go through somebreakthrough moments because I think
that's going to really helpthe listener because there's a lot
of listeners right now who aredealing with limiting beliefs, dealing
with this fact of I want to,but I can't.
(08:46):
So walk through maybe one ortwo breakthrough moments that says,
got you to really say, okay, I can.
Yeah.
So when I worked at thenursing home, I was invited.
We were going through thiswhole like movement of culture change
and I got invited to be on thecommunity to move from such a medicalized
model of care to more personcentered care, which was what I loved.
(09:07):
And so I got invited onto thisleadership committee and I think
that started to build myconfidence that okay, maybe I am
doing something right.
And that didn't go perfectlyor anything, but it really was a
moment where I was like, okay,like maybe I can, maybe I am capable
and maybe I do have somethingto offer.
And then those interactionswith my residents also boosted that.
(09:31):
The other thing that made ahuge difference was being around
other women who were moms inthe same season of me like that I
was and building deeprelationships and connections with
other women and having peoplesaying, oh my gosh, like you are
doing a good job, like you area good mom even when I didn't feel
(09:51):
like it.
And so I want to be thatperson that comes in to see the postpartum
mom and she's blurry eyed fromno sleep and she's frustrated because
her whole life has turnedupside down and she doesn't feel
like herself.
I want to be the person thatcomes in and says, you can do this.
I believe in you even when youdon't believe in you.
Here are some tips and trips.
(10:13):
Let me help you get back onyour feet and remind you that you
are a good mom.
And I think that's where thepassion and the courage comes from
is I don't want people to feelthe way I did.
I want to help them, I want toencourage them.
I want them to feel likethey're good moms.
And yeah, man, that's awesome.
So what would you say to thelistener that would help them collapse
the time between when theyfeel like they're called to something
(10:36):
and when they actually do it?
If we were to say anythingthat collapsed that space of time,
what would you say to them?
Just do it.
Be brave.
You're going to look back andyou maybe it won't work out, but
you're going to learn thingsalong the way.
You're going to grow as aperson along the way and then you
pick.
If it doesn't work out, get upand try something else or try again.
(10:58):
I've never, I've sat with alot of people as they've passed away
and I've gotten to know a lotof people at the end of their lives
and the ones who tried and theones who out went out and did the
things that they wanted to doand they took the risks.
They're not the ones that aresitting there with regret.
It was the people who didn'twho let life pass them by and who
(11:21):
hoped for bigger things butdidn't actually put any effort towards
it.
Those were the people that hada lot of regret.
And I don't want to be like that.
And so I would say just go do it.
Go try.
That is great advice.
So let's switch some gears.
And so now we're gonna.
Let's talk about challengesthat you face getting into this.
Let's talk about some.
Did you face burnout?
One thing I do want to askwhich this fascinates me is the concept
(11:45):
of compassion fatigue.
Did you face that?
Because it's hard when youhave to say goodbye to a lot of people,
like being in that realm ofthe nursing home.
It's.
You're constantly sayinggoodbye, which is so funny that you
went full circle to thebirthing side.
Now you're constantly sayinghello instead of goodbye.
So that's a really cool thing.
(12:06):
Did you face compassionfatigue or what did that look like?
Burnout?
Any of that while you were there?
Absolutely.
I loved my job, but it washard loving people who.
They loved me back.
But they can't remember your name.
They don't remember.
They remembered who I wasbecause they loved me as a person,
but it was exhausting in themost beautiful way.
(12:26):
I left because I had a babythe same week that Covid shut everything
down.
And I just didn't go backafter Covid.
And I have a lot of friendsthat worked in the nursing home.
And I'm so grateful that theLord pulled me out before I had to
walk through that, because itwas really hard for those individuals.
And I'm just grateful that hepulled me out when he did, and he
(12:46):
pointed me in a new direction.
So.
Yeah.
So then how did you.
Or how did you.
Or how do you take care of your.
Yourself?
Like, the self care, theemotional intelligence to make sure
that you rebat re from theplaces where you've poured out so
much?
What do you do personally?
Yeah.
So that's a big thing in doula work.
I was actually talking with adoula friend the other day, and she
(13:07):
was like, I feel like I'mburning out.
And I was like, let's look atthe big picture.
How many clients are youtaking on?
What is truly your capacity?
And then are you being fairlycompensated, or are you giving because
you love the work so much?
Are you giving away the workfor free?
Are you offering to do thesebirths for free?
Are you offering to do too much?
(13:30):
Do you need to increase yourprices so that you feel like your
time is being compensated andthat your family feels like your
time is being compensated?
And she was like, no.
And so that's where I start,is I've tried to find mentorship
from other people in the doulaarena that are doing really well,
that they're thriving becausethey have a good business model.
(13:52):
My mom kept telling me incollege, you need to take a business
class.
And I said, you're insane.
I'm not doing that because Inever want to have a business.
Here I am.
Listen to Your mom, guys.
But yeah.
So, like, really building out,like, remembering that it's not just
loving people well, and it is.
We're compassionate, and wewant to love our clients really well.
But also, I need to take careof myself and my family, and if I
(14:14):
can't do that, I can't do myjob well.
So beyond the business modelside, what do you look for in a good
mentor?
Because you mentionedmentorship with the doula, what are
you looking for in a mentor?
Just separate, a little bit.
Separate from an actual goodbusiness model?
Yeah, I look for someone thatwe have the same values.
Faith is super important tome, and it's super important in my
(14:34):
business.
So I.
When I first got into doulawork, I gravitated towards, like,
the business side of thetrainings, which was great.
But then I found that itdidn't have any spiritual support.
It didn't have any.
We didn't agree on thefundamentals of life.
So it was super challenging.
And so over time, I found someother doulas that, you know that
(14:57):
we have the same beliefs.
And so I'll call her even at along birth, sometimes I'll call my
doula bestie, who lives allthe way in Georgia and I live in
Virginia, and I'll say, hey,this is what's going on.
Can you pray for me?
Can you pray for this client?
Like.
Like, we just need somebreakthrough, and that has been the
biggest thing for me.
(15:17):
I like that term.
Doula bestie.
I like that.
Not heard that one.
I need.
I need a business bestie.
Because if you can have adoula bestie, I can have a business
bestie.
So we got to create those.
So I really think that's the key.
Yeah, it is.
It really is.
Relationships are super key.
This part of what I do in thebusiness that I have is all about
building some things,relational, emotional intelligence
(15:40):
around relationships, becauseyou can't grow without relationships.
So with that being said, Iwant to get into challenges.
Like, when you first start.
Started this, Some of thechallenges you faced, and then move
into some of the challengesyou came up against from people from
different things.
So let's start with the.
What were some of thechallenges you faced when you first
started this app, started this business?
(16:01):
I think I just thought that,oh, I'm gonna be a doula, and I'm
gonna go to these births, andI'm gonna hold these mama's hands,
or I'll go snuggle babiespostpartum, and it's gonna be so
sweet, and it's Gonna be like,so easy and what a way to do life.
And it is.
But also there's a flip side, right?
(16:22):
Like, I've been at births forup to 52 hours and wow.
Yeah.
So I'm all in, which is greatfor my clients, but what happens
with my family?
I have small kids, so what dothey do?
Who's.
I have to have a plan inplace, who gets them to school, who
makes sure that the check goesin for their lunch money stuff.
(16:42):
Little small mom things thatadd up.
And thankfully I've had asupport system come alongside me.
But I know that figuring thatout was a challenge.
And it still is some days, andthat's a big challenge for other
doulas is we're on call allthe time and just figuring out how
to navigate life and find thebalance between work when you're
(17:03):
on call 24 7.
And so, yeah, that wasprobably the first big challenge.
Okay, so what were some of thetensions you faced?
Did people accept you?
Did you run into any, like,negative feedback?
What were some of those challenges?
So overall, in my localcommunity, I was pretty well accepted.
I had a group of peoplecheering me on, which has been super
(17:26):
awesome.
One of the things thathappened that I didn't expect was
that doula work, it's acontroversial world if you're coming
from a faith basedperspective, like I am.
And so I remember, like, I hadposted on the, like, a group Facebook
page that, hey, doula sisters.
(17:46):
Because most doulas are women.
Like, we're walking along,it's women walking alongside women.
And I posted that and I.
Apparently it was the wrongthing to post because I had a whole
bunch of people messaging methat was non inclusive and that it
was hateful and that I need tobe more considerate and thoughtful.
(18:06):
And I just never.
I was so shocked.
And then my company's name iscalled Born Motherhood because I
really believe that that'spart of how God created women, is
to be mothers.
Whether it's spiritual mothersor physical mothers or adoptive mothers,
like, that's part of our nature.
And I had no idea it would be controversial.
But in this Facebook thread,it came up like, how dare you just
(18:32):
say that only women could be mothers?
And things like that?
And I was just, I was shocked.
And it mentally andemotionally, it just shocked me.
And.
And it made me like, think,like, what in the world is going
on?
Am I in the right business?
And that confidence took alittle hit and then I pivoted and
realized, like, I just need tofind my people.
Maybe those aren't my people.
(18:52):
And that's okay, that's.
So do you find that there'smore tension or more pushback from
people who are faith based orpeople who are non faith based?
Talking to you like, where doyou find the most pushback?
I think it's non faith based.
And it's just been interestingto navigate that gently and with
compassion and with grace andstill trying to love people, because
(19:13):
that's the foundation of whatI do, is I'm trying to love people.
I'm sorry.
No, go ahead.
So loving people.
So this creates a two part question.
So number one, how did you.
Now I know said you hit the.
The confidence in that, buthow did you navigate the re.
The feelings of rejection inthe midst of that?
I think I just bowed outhonestly of that situation and was
(19:35):
like, okay, sorry.
I think I wrote I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to offend.
And I just took a few stepsback and reevaluated.
Okay, may.
I originally thought I couldbe a doula for anyone, and now I'm
like, I've realized, like,it's okay if I'm not everyone's cup
of tea.
Like, the right people willfind me and there will be doulas
for those other people thatdon't have the same beliefs as I
(19:57):
am.
There are a million doulas out there.
And so I really feel like it'sa very relational business and the
right people will find you.
And so it's just the more I doit, the easier I bounce back.
I love that.
So how do you find, or did youfind that maybe in the beginning
versus now that youinternalized a lot of those messages
(20:18):
or did you always have theright skill set to just bounce it
off?
Oh, I absolutely internalizedit previously.
It's gotten better the moreyou do this work.
And I think business ingeneral, you build a little resilience
and a little you just yourself worth, I think shifts.
I think listening to podcastslike this and hearing from other
(20:39):
business owners and otherpeople that have been through stuff
and they keep going, I thinkthat is huge.
I think that's encouraging.
Like just knowing that you'renot alone in it, you're not the only
one that might be feelingthose things and then, you know,
like speaking truth to myself,I think that's huge.
Okay.
Like, I was not incorrect.
It may not have been perceivedthat way by everyone.
(21:01):
And I don't have to prove thatI was right or wrong or anything.
I can just love them well andkeep Moving on and just keep moving.
I love that.
Keep one foot in front of the others.
And I appreciate the shout outfor the show because that's why we
started the show is there's somany podcasts out there that are
really devoted to businesstips and things like that, but there's
not very many that talk aboutstories behind the stories.
(21:21):
And this is where grace andthe grind comes in.
And so I appreciate you.
I appreciate the conversationwe've been having.
I've got a couple morequestions and then we're going to
land the proverbial plane forthis particular episode.
What is.
So we're looking in here.
I've got my notes in front of me.
Controversial, first and foremost.
I didn't know duels were controversial.
That was.
(21:41):
That blows my mind.
I get it.
Because people are interestingnowadays, so I get it.
But controversial, I.
Ayla, I was not expecting youto be controversial.
I wasn't either.
Honestly, I'm pretty chill.
Yeah, you are pretty chill.
I'm like, man.
So we've gone on a longjourney from the 8 year, 8 8th grader,
(22:02):
the 13, 14 year old who hadhigh hopes but ran to the person
who's working in the nursinghome, saying goodbye, doing those
things to now.
What you do now is does thedoula, the convergence of all of
this?
And the question then becomes,what is next for you?
What does this look like downthe road?
(22:22):
I'm super excited about this.
So when I started doula work,in the back of my head had this thought
like, oh, it would be so coolto one day like build a group of
other doulas and mentor otherdoulas and have an agency.
And honestly, like, that waslike my 10 or 15 year plan and that
would move me towards retirement.
(22:44):
And I never really said muchabout it to anyone and I was almost
a little afraid to dream it myself.
But the Lord is very funny.
And over the past six months,I've had multiple women come up to
me and say, how do I do whatyou do?
I want to do what you do.
How do I do that?
And so this 10 or 15 year planthat I had, the Lord very quickly
(23:07):
accelerated it.
And now we have an agency ofmyself and two other doulas.
And so now I don't have towalk in the work alone.
I have other women that havecome alongside me.
And so we get to provide thatdoula bestie atmosphere.
We're learning together, we'regrowing together, we're supporting
families together, which meansthat we get to do even more of this.
Amazing work.
(23:27):
We can have more women that goand sit with moms postpartum and
we do their dishes and we talkthem through postpartum anxiety and
postpartum depression and wetalk about all the things that no
one wants to talk about.
We can teach more birthclasses and we can do more lactation
education and lactationsupport and really continue meeting
mamas where they are andhelping them get the best start.
(23:49):
And that's beautiful.
It's the dual of besties.
I still love that term and Ithink that's great.
If you think about it like Ihad this 10, 15 year plan.
My plans aren't often what God wants.
And so my when I say I havethis 10 to 15 year plan, it's often
in fear.
And so here we are in six months.
You've already have youragency started.
So we're definitely going tobe praying and supporting you in
(24:11):
whatever we can do there.
Last two questions.
First and foremost at thelistener knows as they make it to
this part of the show where wedo a wisdom bomb, hashtag, wisdombomb.
If you are on Facebook, if youwant to look at all the previous
wisdom bombs, what is a wisdombomb or a portable truth that you
can leave with the listenerthat says, this is something I can
apply to my life today, whatwould you say to them?
(24:32):
I would say find community.
Find people that you can lookup to that you can be inspired by
and also find people that youcan help walk alongside on the journey.
Because we don't want to justI think in our culture in America,
we would try to do thingsalone and I tried to do things alone
for a very long time.
(24:53):
And I was unfulfilled and Ididn't grow.
I wasn't challenged, I wasn't inspired.
And I think that's where a lotof this personal and professional
growth has come from, isfinding other people to walk alongside
and then pulling peoplealongside me as well.
And that would be my advice,is go find community.
Go find a mentor.
Be a mentor and we can allgrow together.
(25:15):
Absolutely.
So how can people find you?
So I'm on Facebook at Born Motherhood.
You can also check me out onmy website@www.for.com.
So yeah, so I first andforemost thank you coming on the
show.
We appreciate you being here.
It's such a greatconversation, especially into the
world of motherhood and whatit like, what it means to work with
moms.
So thank you, Ayla, for beinghere with us.
(25:36):
Thank you so much, Jim.
I appreciate you.
And so to you, the listenerwho have made it this far in the
episode.
We just want to thank you forlistening and being faithful to the
Grace and the Grind as we tellthe stories that inspire.
With that being said, whateverplatform you are watching this on
or listening to, make sure tohit the in the comments.
Let us know some questions ifyou have them.
Maybe do a subscribe or followand review us.
(26:00):
We appreciate you for being here.
Catch the either previousepisode you've missed or the next
episode that comes out everyMonday every week.
With that being said you havebeen listening to Grace and the Grind
and I appreciate you being here.
We'll see you on the next one.
This has been Grace and the Grind.
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
If you did, make sure to likerate and review and we'll be back
(26:23):
soon but in the meantime findus on social media.
Eadwithjam Take care ofyourself and we'll see you next time
on Grace in the Grind.
Host
Jim Burgoon
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