June 2, 2025 • 58 mins
For Cheng Lei, being stuck in a Chinese jail was like being buried alive in a concrete coffin. Wrongly incarcerated on espionage charges, the Australian journalist endured years of hell. Her hair fell out, she suffered insomnia and was only known by a number. But the worst part was not seeing her two young children. Almost two years after she was released and reunited with her family, Lei joins Gary Jubelin to share what it took to survive.
Cheng Lei: My Story premieres Tuesday June 3 at 7:30pm AEST on Sky News Australia
Stream at SkyNews.com.au or download the Sky News Australia app
Cheng Lei: A Memoir Of Freedom by Cheng Lei will be published by HarperCollins on Wednesday, June 4 and is available to pre-order now.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life, the average persons never exposed her.
I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty
five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what
I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
the public into the world in which I operated. The
(00:23):
guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
just like the people I talk to. Some of the
content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
me now as I take you into this world. In
(00:46):
part two of my chat with journalist Cheng Lai, who
was imprisoned in China for three years for I suppose
what could be best described as international espion arche, we
talked about how she survived with humor, compassion and dignity,
how she break the inhumane and bizarre rules impose on
her with a bit of rat cunning. I also learn
(01:06):
a lot about human nature from what I consider a
very impressive woman. So welcome back part two.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I promise not to make you cry this time.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I go up from us not to gray, Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'll tiptoe. One of the things that I picked up
on that help you survive, and it's a very human thing,
and maybe it's a very Australian thing too. Giving the
guards that were looking after your nicknames, some of which
weren't flattering, what was the rationale behind that.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, in that existence, you're not allowed to know anything.
You can't ask for the time, You can't ask what
their names are. And these are people who see you
shit show and sleep. It's actually very intimate. I wouldn't
got a relationship, but see them all the time, and
(02:03):
and of course they're the only things or life forms
that you can observe, so you start to try to
work out what they're like, and that's how you identify
them in your head by their nicknames. Any unflattering ones,
(02:24):
well there was a very bad farta considering you know
we're sharing what.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Was called stick.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
One was called child soldier because she looks so tiny
in this huge coat with the walkie talkie, and there
was some of the nicer ones were wordsmith because she
knew a lot of like when I would try to
write letters to my family and if I'd forgotten Chinese words,
(02:59):
she would tell me how to write it.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So there was little doses of humanity.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yes, I mean you couldn't. You couldn't have a conversation,
but if it was just a very quick exchange.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And you had cameras, it wasn't. When the doors shut them,
you could talk that they knew they had cameras on
them as well. Yes, and I would imagine the punishment
would be fairly rigid on them if they break the rules.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Definitely, you.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
With the detention that lasted six months.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
That was rsdl R. Next part is detention.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay, to talk us through that, your next little adventure.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So I knew that the six months were coming up,
and I was looking forward to going somewhere else, and
I had found out that I would have cell mates
and that put me in good spirits. I was really
anticipating some human company, not the type that's surveilling. Yeah.
(04:01):
So when I did get to the detention center, which
is just down the say, down the road. It's all
one interconnected facility. Then I had to go through two
weeks of quarantine and that already was a step up
because I didn't have the guards with me all the time.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
So quarantine, you're locked in, locked in the.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Cell by myself. Look at luxury, luxury exactly enough grade. Yes,
I could walk around instead of being limited to the
ten minutes so called exercise times only a few times
a day.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Can I just and something that I should have mentioned.
We talked about the psychological time that you were detained
for the first six months. Were you allowed to exercise
and what were the physical effects it had on you?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Oh my body went haywire. Yeah, hair fell out, purchase
of it for females. And I injured my back sitting
sitting on my bomb. Yeah, just too much sitting. And
(05:17):
the cell was cold. But then later they put in
a heater and I couldn't move for more than a week.
That's a lying in bed all the time. And cried
buckets when I tried to turn around in bed.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
That painful.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That painful. So the lots of insomnia and anxiety all understandable.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Okay, so you're now looking at cell mates.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, so when I talk us through that that I
could imagine that would be so exciting after what the
deprivation that you've had someone that you might be able
to have a communication of communications with.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I used to compare RSDL to being buried alive, and
that I was actually sitting in a coffin, but being
with people again, especially people who were also suffering the
same fate, that was almost like a warm bath, like
coming in from the cold, because we could laugh, we
(06:28):
could make fun of the terrible food together, we could
share some things. Obviously, they warned us not to say
anything about our cases to each other. We weren't known
by our names, we were only known by numbers. But
still these were comrades.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
As comrades, did you share your names? Did you you
on the opportunities if it presented itself, did you tell
a bit about your backstory?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
And of course that all depends on how much you
trust each other and whether you think that person is decent.
After a while, we did share some names, but one
particular cell mate didn't tell me her name until I
was moved out of the cell with her.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Right so, how many cell mates did you have? And
describe the cell and describe the day to day living, I.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Suppose, so you're woken up by Beethoven's for a Lease
piano music. I feel sorry for the composer to be
used in such a horrible place.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Things don't getting with that, yep.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And so we all sleep on there's one long wooden
bed together about thirty centimeters apart, so you try to
not to intrude on the other person's bedspace as much
as possible. But then you're with each other all the
time and you share everything. The toilet doesn't have a door,
(08:05):
and there's a shower cam that looks straight into it,
so whether you're squatting over the toilet, whether you're having
a shower which is only weekly, whether you're washing your stuff,
they can still see. So five cameras in total in
each corner and the shower or the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Do you become accustomed to that and just okay, well
this is what it is. There is no privacy in.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
You do accept that on an intellectual level. But then
when the buzzer sounds because there's an intercom and you
know that they have been watching you doing something, and
then they holler at you that stop doing that, or
even something as innocuous as I remember Mother's Day twenty
twenty three, I had just gotten this book of songs
(08:53):
Chinese songs, and one of them was about that a
singer had written for his mum, and I thought, oh, okay,
we'll learn this. And so the three of us are
sitting on the beds the edge of the bed together
and learning the song, and the buzzer says, stop huddling,
and you just all of a sudden, you think, oh
my god, I've done something wrong. And it's a terrible
(09:15):
feeling because it just kills all the warmth. And you
know that we were sharing at that moment.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Would add to your paranoia or that must just play
with your mind. I can't even comprehend it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So well, that's what they want that you wouldn't even
dare that you would self censor about what you said
and what you did. And also they encourage you to
snitch on your cell mates.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Were you the whole time spent in the cell, Like,
did you have an exercise yard or you allowed out
to exercise.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I don't call it a yard because it's actually still
an extension of the cell. It's still a concrete box
and you can only see a little sliver of the
sky from the windows. So the first time the doors
out of the bell sounded for exercise, I was so excited.
I waited at the door, thinking, you know this is yeah, yeah, exactly, sure,
(10:11):
shank redemption, you know, ideas of the sky and the sun,
and and then and also seeing other people. I didn't
know how it would work. And then it opens and
it's still this concrete box. I'm not sure how that's
different to exercising in the cell.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I saw the exercises were you're doing just to stay sane, and.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So because there were four of us, each of us
would take one corner and you only had about a
meter of space really to do your exercises. And at
the start I was fairly unfit because I had been
sitting on my bum for six months. So I started
to do push ups on the concrete ground, squats and
(10:58):
leg raisers, and later when I got a book on yoga,
some yoga posers. Because we had these cloth shoes, there's
no shock absorption whatsoever, so any cardio was pretty hard
on the joints. So I only did a little bit
of that, but lots of stretches, lots of light jogging
(11:23):
on the ground, and of course no bras, so we'll
try to tie knots under our bust and so on.
So it was very defeminizing.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Again, it's just this ongoing thing. Where is your case
in regards to the process through the legal system at
this point in time.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, I used to be really naive about how long
it would take, and the prosecutor and the officers weren't
going to enlighten me. But once in the cell, I
discovered that state security cases take years. Years to get
to prosecution, years to get to the trial, years to
get a verdict. And the worst I've heard is eight
(12:08):
years in the one cell right.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
In that detention. That's where you're hell, it's not heaven.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Before being sent to prison, which I think is much
worse because in prison you can have family or friend visits,
you get to buy more stuff, you get to meet
more people. Yes, you are forced into labor, but in
some ways that can be positive too because you actually
(12:37):
feel useful.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Well, I think it sort of demonstrates how low they
took you that you're looking at. If I could get
to prison, that would be great.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, yeah, that would be I was looking forward to jail.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
WHOA, Okay, so you're called in this limbo. Did you
form the friendships of the people that you're in in
the cell with in the tension because you have been
living on each other's nerves. I would imagine there'd be
some highs and lawyers of living that close and with people.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of describing it. Highs
and lows. You in one way, really rely on them
because they're the only people who will comfort you, help you,
even if it's something as small as when you buy
something that you don't want, then you can swap with
(13:31):
them for something else. But then, yes, like you said,
there's no respite and we need space. I mean, even
if you were there with your soulmate, with your wife, yeah,
you would hate them after a while. And these are
(13:51):
the people that you didn't choose to be with who
personalities might not be what you look for in a friend.
But yeah, so it's a constant push and Paul in
the dynamics.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
You had one person in there that had the intellectual
discussions that you could add with a but she was
a horrible person. Yeah, yeah, that sucks.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It does. If she was easier, she would have been
much nicer to live with.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And at some stage you will put one out and
the cell with her, yes, and then you had to
complain when it just got too much.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Because I couldn't sleep at night. She was paranoid that
I wasn't letting her sleep by making noise, so she
would get up in the middle of the night and
stand at my door, stand at my bed and ask me,
did you pull up the sheets? Really loudly? I mean,
(14:48):
how loud can.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Pulling up the sheets be okay?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
When I was the one being kept awake by her snoring?
But she was such a bully.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah, well that makes that are uncomfortable. You were the
lights on the whole time.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
The only time in three years and two months that
I experienced darkness was a summer blackout, and I remember
all of us were sitting in the darkness, enjoying the
blackout because for once the lights were off and we
couldn't be seen on the monitors.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, I can imagine that. Other friendships you made in
the in the prison.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I'd say two of the best friends. One I nicknamed
Canto because she's both Cantonese. Another one I nicknamed Hannah
because she loved all things Japanese and Hannah means flower
in Japanese and Canto was there from the day I
arrived until the day I went, and we were friends
(15:55):
because we liked to make fun of everything, and we
both had a dirty sense of humor, and she was
also quite daring, so in some of the naughtiest stuff,
she would always be my sidekick, although I didn't let
her get punished because I knew that being foreign citizen
(16:18):
and also being a journalist, her story was being reported
widely that I would I wouldn't be treated as harshly.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Let's talk about some of those things you got up to,
and these are real Shawshank redemption type stuff that brew
and getting on the drink.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
We didn't, we didn't dig ourselves out of the place,
but we did manage to celebrate Canto's birthday with some
home group homebrew.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And that was putting fruit bills and fermenting or.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yes, it was thanks to COVID that we were given
some apples and we could buy sugar. So the first
batch was all moldy, but I scraped it off and
drank it anyway because it just smelled so beautiful. And
then we made a second batch where Canto faked a
(17:11):
stomach ache and said she wanted hot water so we
could sort of sterilize the cup somewhat. And then later
they were my cell mates because then I was I
went upstairs for quarantine and they said the bubbles popping
in the cup was sounded really dangerous, because just in
(17:35):
case an officer came in for an inspection and heard,
what's that noise?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Alcohol? What was the go with the knocking? The very
complicated system to communicate with prisoners in other cells, It.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Just shows how desperate you become to communicate with other people.
I mean, we only spoke to each other for the
whole three years. Well, obviously I was lucky enough to
have the embassy visits. But when the COVID wave hit
(18:13):
and we couldn't exercise in the yard, they would open
the door to the yard every morning for half an
hour for so called fresh air. So I would stand
near the yard and sing because it had good acoustics.
And then one day I heard a male from next door,
(18:37):
because we were the female cell bracketed by two male cells,
and he said, love your singing and said our cell number.
So I said thank you, and we're really happy. Just
so you know how hard it is to actually be heard.
The walls are so thick that we had never heard
(18:59):
a clear sentence before. They make it so that you don't.
You're never in the yard at the same time because
the odd numbers odd numbered cells and the even numbered
cells exercise at different times. But because of COVID, all
the doors were open for all the cells in the
morning to the exercise enclosure. That is, that was how
(19:20):
we could hear each other, And so we started to
illicitly have these conversations. And because the walls are so thick,
you've got to say something like Gary to actually be heard. Yeah,
And sometimes there would be a wind and it would
either help or hinder the conversation. So then we thought
(19:43):
of a way to communicate inside, which was to knock
on the walls via an alphabetical code.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
We played games and I was trying to understand the code,
and that's two knocks for B, very knocks for C.
Was something someone's coming about loud. But how did the
other cell work out the system? Like, well, I suppose
you've got a lot of time on your hands.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
So we had to devise the code while we were
talking in the mornings. Okay, yeah, during the day explain
the rules, and then during the day practice getting the codes.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
And what joy did that bring to you? Being able
to communicate with other.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
People immense It was like a miracle to know people
who live the same lives as we do and are
just two meters away, but they may as well be
on another planet. And that solidarity, the happiness of hearing
(20:55):
like one night there was a full moon, which I
could see like if I stood in a corner near
the toilet, and so we typed on the wall the
code for moon, and then we knew they were looking
at the moon as well by then because they would
respond with things like wine and romance, because the moon
(21:19):
is a very romantic symbol in Chinese culture.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Iose you talk solidarity, Yeah, it must. You would feel
so isolated in the environment you've moon and it just
almost makes you feel like you've got the connection with
the outside world, even though their prisoners sitting in the
same situation right beside you.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Exactly. We often felt we were living underground and that
we were forgotten by the world, and we didn't know
anything about the world. I mean, yes, sure the TV
was on at night, but the state news is is
(22:01):
not exactly a portrayal of the real world. So anything
that we could find out about other people what was happening,
even if we sniffed garlic in the wind.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
It was the sensors.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, it made you feel like you were still alive
and still in the world.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Were you negotiation skills? You managed to watch the Olympics
and the World Cup soccer, Yeah, and that must have
been a big thing for you.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Empowering. Yeah, and to know that journalistic skills can come
in handy anyway. You know that whole pitching. I guess
when you've worked in journalism as long as I had,
which was close to twenty years, you've pitched for a
lot of interviews and you've gotten a lot of rejection.
So that really prepares you well to speak to people
(22:57):
who are very likely to turn down your request.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, but hit the right the right note, and yeah,
they've got it. Singing was another big thing, like and
it's yeah, it's beautiful and you see what you're going
through where someone's birthday, one of your cell mate's birthday,
the songs prepared for them, and you sing a song
and things like that or Christmas Day says little things
(23:23):
that seemed to you hang on to and keep your sanity.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Absolutely, and that's how you make each day different because
like Wednesday, we're going to learn a new song. And Friday,
we're going to review the old songs. Like I said
on Mother's Day, we tried to find one that was
meaningful for the day. And talking about the lyrics, because
I think as women in there, as mothers and girlfriends
(23:49):
and daughters, you it's it's I mean, it's such a
hard place, devoid of touches of femininity, no color, no beauty,
nothing soft and and that can be released through music.
(24:13):
A lot of Daggy eighty songs.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
You had to remember the lyrics and did you have
to make up lyrics?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Okay, some of them I remembered, well some of them
I tried to guess. And now that I know what
the lyrics are, I have to apologize to my cell worts.
But later, when Nick was allowed to write to me,
my former partner, he would send me print outs of
the lyrics and thankfully they were allowed to come in
(24:41):
via the sensors. But I only had a few hours
to read them. And then because all the letters get
taken out of the cell and if I didn't remember it,
then what would I teach myself.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I'm starting to feel sorry for your cell mates. Now
you just made up these lyrics.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Only some little SNA but like, you know, if I
knew three verses, but then I was a bit sketchy
on the third verse then a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, what about books? That was a salvation for your
books coming into the prison.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yes, because in RSDL it was like to ease pain,
and they were my friends. But then in detention where
I had cell mates but we ran out of things
to talk about, they were conversation starters, and they were
ways in which we could learn together and grow together
(25:34):
and discuss because we figured out that if we didn't
lift ourselves, we would think our brains would atrophy, our
moods would always be dark, and when we went out,
whether it's to jail or to see our family, what
(25:55):
would they see. We didn't want that. So it was
you know, exercise would strengthen our bodies, and then we
would keep our minds active with whether it's absorbing you
knowledge or debating some something in a book, or looking
at the world in a different way.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Keeping your mind active. Yeah, Okay, like your book, Well,
now that you bought that up a shame I don't
have a copy. You did mention that you read Eye
Catch Killers in the detention center.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Very much, very good. I don't want to put you
on the spot, but you've probably read one hundred or
so books there, three hundred three hundred? Is it in
the top ten? You can lie to me here.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
I'm not going to do a top ten. I would
say there were books in there that moved me to
my surprise, or moved me or helped me that I
wouldn't have thought they would. Things like poetry, like philosophy,
history and science, because they all give you different perspectives
(27:06):
on suffering. Like science doesn't care to science, happiness is
just a chemical reaction, and we can do that. We
can engineer it in our bodies like exercise or taking
taking things. But I guess that means you don't feel
(27:26):
sorry for yourself. You don't think of yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Okays, a way of stepping away in exactly situation.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
And the universe, like to the universe, what are we,
We're nothing?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Keeping keeping your more indactive. Yeah, and poetry. You had
a few books on poetry that was helping that that
brings in something that seemed to really resonate with you
when you're in there.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, because we didn't see anything beautiful or hear or
touch anything beautiful. Having the beautiful imagery means that our
minds weren't always on dark things like handcuffs and blindfolds
and being wheelchaired around and being called only by a number.
(28:16):
We could visualize, you know, the gold hush of noon
in the book in the poem My Country by Dorothy
and mckella, and I love Alison Kraggen's She's an Australian
poet who wrote about the Elwood Organic Fruit and Vegetable
Shop because I love fresh produce, and that took all
(28:39):
the descriptions. Yeah, yeah, And there's a bit about damp
warm orchids, damp woman damp like literal kisses, which I
had to explain to Canto.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I wasn't lost in the translation.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It was English. I was able to get English books.
She loved that.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
It seems like you you were the leader of the
ship in there, like the captain.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I was nicknamed teacher.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I was the head troublemaker, and to the extent that
I bought these male underpants for to sleep in. And
then when it was because every month there was a raid,
and when an officer saw these male underpants, she thought
I had somehow smuggled it in from another cell.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Is this person under the bed?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well, yeah, I just think going through that having no sense, like,
I'm sure it's easier to apply yourself if you know, Okay,
i've got to do five years, I've got to do
two years, and I've got one year down. I've got
four years to get whatever. But you were left in
limbo for a long time, weren't you. You had no
idea of how long are you going to be there for?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Well, I signed a leniency agreement yep, by admitting guilt
and accepting punished that. Uh, because I signed it, the
prosecutor would recommend a five year sentence. And there's a
party in the book about bargaining over my sentence, which
is very dark but slightly funny too. And so I
(30:16):
started counting down five years, which would be November of
this year, right, And I just kept thinking, when I
come out, the kids won't be kids anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
You know, I used to think it was twenty years
or I would never get out. So yeah, expectations, they
are a funny thing. And so I was always working
to that date. But then there was also the possibility
that the judge would sentence me to something longer. I mean,
(30:52):
they hold all the power, and defense lawyers can do
very very very little, if anything.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, dealings with the embassy, How did you find that?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, they were so caring. I still keep in touch
with Tony, the consul officer who came almost thirty times
to visit me and one Chinese New Year because it
was the Year of the Rabbit and I was born
(31:29):
in the Year of the Rabbit. He wore bugs bunny
socks to cheer me up. And it wasn't an in
person visit. It was still by video link, so he
had to lift up his foot and it was on
a wonky angle so I could only see a little bit.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
The thought that make a difference.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And actually, at one of the last visits, I wrote
a little poem, very sentimental poem about the about them
being the the fuzzy wuzzies of defat because they're the
only people to make you feel.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Like people are care. Yeah, did you realize? And I
know there's always debate on whether to go public on
situations like this or whether it's better to handle it
behind closed doors negotiations for a release of someone like yourself,
what was your inclination? Did you want to shout it
(32:31):
from the rooftops, look where I am, rather than people
have found themselves in a similar position to you. Yourself
told look, we don't want to blow this up. It's
easier to negotay that without it be becoming public. What
was your thoughts when you're in.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
There, Well, I thought it was better to have publicity,
to have people know what I was going through. But
my family, especially my dad, who has suffered at the
hands of the Communist Party before he came to Australia,
(33:10):
believed that it was better to keep quiet because China
loves its face. But I still I'm still inclined towards
the media telling the story. And there are examples of
(33:32):
my treatment or getting better treatment because I did complain
about the food, about going hungry, and things did improve.
And to the when there was something that they did
that was that was okay, like when they allowed us
(33:54):
to watch the World Cup whatever, I would say that too.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
I thinkness and transparency.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
I think transparency is important. Each case probably judge on
its own merits, but I would imagine if I was
in a situation that you found yourself in, I'd want
it to be out there publicly. Because otherwise you think, well,
does anyone know, does anyone care?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (34:16):
So I can imagine that would help you dealing with
your situation, knowing that they're people you're not forgotten, because
you would feel forgotten in there.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, I like how you maintain your sanity in that situation, Like, well,
you've talked about the books and the communication, the fun
thing things you do. But full credit to you for
hanging in there, because I can just imagine just just
both give up or you just have a sulk and
life ship.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
No, I think. I think if you were in detention,
you would do a lot of exercise and that creates
the endorphins to not let your mind go, keep you going. Yeah,
and helping people, and again that's Ozzie made ship, standing
up for your mates.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Well, I think, and one of your cell mats in
the books you are very timid, timid young lady and introvert.
But you guys took a lot of comfort in trying
to help her through her times.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Exactly when she did something that was out of a character,
like actually perform a little comedy skit for me on
my birthday, when she ate a bit more, when she
enjoyed the cake. The cake. It was so gratifying, and
(35:40):
that probably helps you more than being helped yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, little things. When did you find out you were
going to escape this night mare?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
September twenty seven, twenty twenty three. Okay, first day of
my life?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
How did I'm about?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
So it was Dave of my sentencing, something I had
been waiting for. So I remember, this is a year
and a half after my show trial, which went for
ninety minutes, and I just wanted it to be over.
I just wanted to get to a different place, and
especially to have family visits. So the same deal mine folded,
(36:24):
feet shackled, handcuffed, and then off to the court, sitting
in this little cage. And then the judge comes over
and he's smiling at me. And in all that time
I'd seen him plenty of times before because he had
to preside over every embassy visit, I'd never seen him smile.
(36:45):
And he said, what do you think you're going to
be sentenced to?
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And I said I had a bad dream that it
was eight years. Then he said, I think you will
be satisfied with the sentence.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
What the fuck?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
So that goes the serenity.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yeah, but did you, like until you actually walked out
or till you're on the plane, did you have this
little bit of a hole back going Oh, how could
they might be playing with me?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I was the champion at dampeney expectations because I would
rather think the worst and then be pleasantly always.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Okay and you okay, you've got the finish line. You're
seeing the finish line. What was going through your mind
about getting back and seeing your kids or your family
and then people close to you.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Well, I still had to jump through a few hoops. Yeah,
And the officers always made it sound like there's still
a chance that you were past that you won't be free.
So I was very nervous about Like, can you imagine
(38:04):
if you think you're going to be freed and then
finally that's taken away from you, that devastated.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I can't imagine, honestly can't imagine.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So very tense couple of weeks between the sentencing and
actually going free.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Did you let your cell mates know? Did you go
back to your yourself?
Speaker 3 (38:23):
You?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I couldn't. That was the cruelest thing. I was put
into a different cell on the morning of the sentencing,
and I still remember telling them be good, remember the
song lyrics I'm going to quiz you when I come back.
(38:44):
And I didn't. Yeah, and I And it was before
they had gotten up, so before waking time. And if
I'd known, I would have given them everything because I
had this sort of single it that's the most coveted items,
(39:05):
luxury items. Yeah, yeah, and I know how much any
of my things would have made a difference to them.
And also, but I guess what the officers say does
make sense in that it would be very cruel to
tell them that I was going free while they still
(39:26):
had long sentences ahead of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I can imagine that they'd be happy for you, but
then reflect on their situation. Yeah, that's probably one of
the conditions that makes sense in what they talk about.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
You are also afraid of messages being sent out.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, well that's true. They seem to be afraid of everything.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
They are, and they still are. I think what I say,
what I do, I think still creates.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
You will not to come on my Catch Killers podcast
because I don't want to get in trouble.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
So it might be bad for life going to China.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I can't get that I did I've been to China
a few times. I quite like it. That's beautiful. Yeah,
your physical I laughed because I went not laughing at you,
laughing with you. You hadn't seen yourself in the mirror
for a long time. You saw yourself, So I'm trying
to tell what did you see and what did Were
(40:32):
you surprised by how you changed over the time that
you spent.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, so the only way that to look at ourselves,
to see ourselves was like there's a bit of the
shower head of chrome chrome, or there's a little bit
of acrylic glass near the door that we used to
nickname the mirror, but that doesn't show you look like
(41:01):
that's that's like a shadow of what you look like.
And then in the court mirror, I just saw this
much older and like very pallid, a ghost of who
I used to be, which was kick ass, like always.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Up and ready to gap. It must come as a
shock you don't realize that the toll has taken on you.
And yeah, and actually looking at yourself in the mirror,
and that.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Day for the court, I had already been dressed in
like my the best clothes I'd born in years. You
thought you're right, exactly, that's right. And I looked ship
and this haircut by this woman who didn't have her
glasses on, and I was kneeling on the on the
bed while she did it.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And you trip home, you're on the plane, you come home.
Tell us about that, because I can't imagine the feeling
that you would have getting on the plane and ready
to fly out of the fly out of the country
and get back to see your children.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Something like heart about to burst and wanting to scream
and laugh and jump up. Because I couldn't on the plane,
I tried to buy a red lipstick on duty free,
and then the stewardess asked me, because I only had
the leftover cash from my prison account, she said, do
(42:32):
you have a card? And then all of a sudden
I felt really shy.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
You've been out of circulation.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I couldn't explain why I didn't have a card. Then
I was just babbling for hours to poor Ambassador Graham Fletcher.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
He flew back with you, Yes he did.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
And I was nervous, anticipating it all, uncertain what I
would see. I mean, I hadn't seen the kids for
so long. I saw some photos, but that's so different. Too.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
What age are we talking the kids went from the
time you last saw them to the time you're about
to see them. What how old were they?
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Well, I were eight and ten and then looking at it,
they were twelve and fourteen. Big difference, Yeah, huge difference.
Like I used to hold them like mother hen under
my arms, and now they were well, my daughter was
already taller and my son was catching up to me.
(43:38):
And she had like my daughter had to become independent
going to boarding school, and my mum had aged a
lot in that time.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
She was looking after your son.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, well and aba when she came back on weekends
and hold days.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
So which airport did you land at? And felt there
was there a run up in a big cuddle and cry.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
And they were in a in a room. And I
remember walking along the corridor of international arrivals and just
I was floating, but I also felt a bit nervous
because of how I looked and how I was, and
(44:35):
but it also felt like I was finally home. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
What impact do you think this has had on your kids?
Having their mother away in circumstances like this for so long?
Speaker 2 (44:48):
I think my son in some ways, I mean, I'm
trying to get him out of it. In some ways
is still the eight year old who doesn't know if
mom will ever come back, especially last year. He's a
(45:10):
little bit older this year. Last year he used to say,
promised me, like if I went on a business trip,
promised me, you'll come back. And my daughter is some
I guess you would say, far too independent because she's
had to do everything herself and credit to that. And
(45:36):
both kids have a very warped sense of humor, which
I think helped help them get through.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, you've been parted something unfortunately, look at this was
that only tricking And I've been away for four years
in prison. But how has it changed you as a person?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Oh, in many ways. First of all the appreciation of
freedom and life and just knowing that at any moment
it can all go from you. So if you're not
taking everything you can at life's buffet, you are wasting it.
(46:22):
And that was my message at the Ted talk as well.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
It's an interesting message to take, and that very understandable,
isn't it, because life can just be turned upside down,
not just the way your life is, but anyone's life
could be turned upside down in a moment's notice.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, so don't be complacent, don't be lazy. Yeah, and
the things that you'll regret are risks. You didn't take love,
you didn't show, places you didn't explore, So do all that.
Don't wait.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
It's a good, good message.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
And the SATs and the money stuff, don't worry so
much about that.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Well, it didn't help you out much dinner exactly, sitting
over in your detention center with my little box of
but you did, and yes, single it. You were so lucky.
What are you doing since you've you've got back out,
other than rekindling your relationship with your kids that I'm
(47:27):
sure are annoying you by now as well as well
as much as you miss them.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Can I go back to detention again? Exactly?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
So did it turn your way from working as a journalist? Experience?
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Once I got over the Stockholm syndrome and saw how
much journalists other journalists had helped me, I had rediscovered
passion for it, my passion for it, and I was
very lucky that the Sky News offered me a position,
(48:11):
and that to this day when I do get leads
on arbitrary and wrongful detention stories or other stories of injustice,
that I can actually write about it and tried to
make a difference. That's very healing. But then in some
(48:35):
ways I'm being kept from doing what I'm good at doing,
which is reborn on China, especially after what happened with
Premier Li Chung's visit to Canberra last year, because the
diplomats tried to block me, and then all.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
The Chinese diplomas yes, yep.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
And then all the story is around that gave some
people more of an impression that I was now radioactive
and talking to me was was dangerous. So I get
I get shadow canceled.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
That hurts. There was an extract in your book that
you said, and I see that it still carries carries
with you, like your reputation is important and what you
stand for and the stigma of what you've been through.
Lives were being spread on the Chinese internet, commentary branding
(49:38):
mes China Hating West loving spy. Yeah, I carry my
leper status with complex feelings. Whilst it's an honor to
be revived by a regime that invents an alternative reality
because it cannot look after itself squarely, it is sad
and frustrating to be feared where there is no cause.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah, what are they afraid of? Yeah, well, I'm just
trying to do my job.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I pulled that out because I was reading AK. It's
a nice situation. You're out, you're back, reunited with your family,
you're back working, but you're still carrying something, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Yeah, Like last week I discovered that China's top police
university made a video basically warning people about spies and
probably recruiting students as well, and using pictures of me
and of the Canadian hostage diplomacy victims.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, that that must hurt.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
It's yeah, it hurts, and it's also ridiculous. But I'm
trying to turn the hurt into motivation and into calls
for more openness.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Well, you one of the things, and you probably won't
raise it, but I'll raise it that the You've got
an award Australian Journalist Award the Australian Press Counsel, and
the award was in two thousand and twenty four, twenty
twenty four, and basically it was for your honored for
(51:11):
your resilience and courage. So that's a substantial award. And
I think they resilience and courage, they're pretty good characteristics
to be identified by your peers.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I'm very honored and feel undeserving, But I guess I'll
use the ward to do more, to speak up more.
And with this book and the documentary, it is telling
some uncomfortable well for the Chinese government, and there's so
(51:46):
much fear. It's insidious. It's in our universities, it's in
our government officials, it's in every probably every overseas Chinese person,
and it makes people self censor and affects how they
(52:07):
carry themselves and even make friends. It's terrible. And if
we do do that, if we are bound by those fears,
then we're not free. Yeah, then what's the point of
living in Australia. You may as well be in China.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well, I think, yeah, there's a strong possibility you'll have
an important, important role in the future with what your experiences,
your qualifications and your life experiences as well, that it
is a time for someone like yourself to be speaking
out and putting transparency on what's going on.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
I hope so. But I also want people to think
and understand more than they judge. Sometimes I'm disappointed when
I read very simplistic commentary, very absolutist statements. Stop trading
with China, or why do people go to China like,
like you said, you found China to be fantastic. Yeah,
(53:10):
and how do we accept that the beauty or the
ingenuity of the some of the technology, but then also
be able to look at what's wrong with it and
call a spade a spade.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
M Well, hopefully that can that can occur. Just don't
get yourself in the trouble. Speaking of the time in there,
there's a lot of people that, do you, supported you
and carried you. And these are not I'm not talking
your cell mates or the people that you met at
the embassy, but these are people back home that were
(53:51):
champion your cause. And do you want to give a
shout out to those people and what they meant to you?
What was going on?
Speaker 2 (53:58):
I mean, some of the things I knew about, but
the whole of it I only found out after I
came out, and the first few months I went around
thanking them. Whether it's Anlese. Nielsen who's now based in Washington, DC,
who led the public letter writing campaign, her sister Mary
(54:20):
Macklin from wa who heard about my complete stranger and
somehow was able to get her short but very uplifting
notes through to me. I mean to know that strangers
are praying for you. Let's just yeah, so heartwarming, and
(54:41):
I did go go meet her. Some of the writers
I've already spoken about, and the people you've had on
the show, Peter crist Or, Sean Turnell, and Kylie Moore Gilbert,
Kylie and Peter both wrote to me. Yeah, former Prime
Minister John Howard, who wrote this fantastic, pitch perfect letter
(55:03):
to a senior Chinese leader, and of course the defat
officers who came to visit me. Would you believe that
on the day of my freedom flight, Tony from the
embassy still wore colorful.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Socks like maybe he just likes color.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
He said he was watching me like it sounded like
a spy novel, the whole you know, waiting around the
tarmac watching me get on.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
I knew it.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
And my my number in detention was actually double O
three as opposed to double seventh.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
You could never get to double seven double three. That
seems pretty cool, double three okay, that's yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
And all my peers in the media who kept my
story from going cold, and all as saying they believed
in me and that I should be freed. And of
course my former partner, Nick Coyle, who did so much too,
(56:14):
tell journalists what was happening, to speak to diplomats, and
to write all these wonderful love letters to me that
my cell mates couldn't believe, because the common thing in
China is once you've been inside, you're tainted, right, and
(56:36):
people should abandon you.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
It's the next communication helped you, helped you get through.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
It so much. And even seeing those awful comments online,
Nick made a joke. He said, what you should do
is a semi nude spread buried in mounds of cash,
surrounded by oiled out Brazilian toy voice. If they say
I'm spy and you know, yeah, well fling it in
(57:02):
your face, full spy.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yeah. I look that that type of humor that comes
through in your book, and I really enjoyed, enjoyed reading
the book. It's thank you got the sense of who
you were and the strength of character, and you know,
it's the award that you've got for your courage and
your resilience that certainly came through in the book. But
I didn't realize you were going to be so funny.
(57:27):
I'm going to add humor to it. But and the
other thing is it's great when journalism gets a lot
of criticism. Doesn't and it gets a lot of criticism,
but it's so important and it can Making sure that
people tell stories like they supported you is something that
we need to stand strong on.
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah. I think we have to become good journalism consumers
and we can all be citizen journalists. So it's all
about integrity and whatever we do.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah, well, you're very good at what you've done. Because
I haven't cracked you. I was going to get this
was going to be the big scoop for Catch Killer.
See I told you she was a spot. You beat me.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
I have to go back to see me behind the wheel.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Your kids have sent me the video of your trying
to reverse part. Thank you so much for coming on.
I really enjoyed the chat. And yeah, good luck in
the future. And quite impressive what you've been through and
still come out with a smile on your face.
Speaker 2 (58:35):
Thank you, Gary. She's
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life, the average persons never exposed her.
I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty
five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what
I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
the public into the world in which I operated. The
(00:23):
guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
just like the people I talk to. Some of the
content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
me now as I take you into this world. In
(00:46):
part two of my chat with journalist Cheng Lai, who
was imprisoned in China for three years for I suppose
what could be best described as international espion arche, we
talked about how she survived with humor, compassion and dignity,
how she break the inhumane and bizarre rules impose on
her with a bit of rat cunning. I also learn
(01:06):
a lot about human nature from what I consider a
very impressive woman. So welcome back part two.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I promise not to make you cry this time.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I go up from us not to gray, Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'll tiptoe. One of the things that I picked up
on that help you survive, and it's a very human thing,
and maybe it's a very Australian thing too. Giving the
guards that were looking after your nicknames, some of which
weren't flattering, what was the rationale behind that.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, in that existence, you're not allowed to know anything.
You can't ask for the time, You can't ask what
their names are. And these are people who see you
shit show and sleep. It's actually very intimate. I wouldn't
got a relationship, but see them all the time, and
(02:03):
and of course they're the only things or life forms
that you can observe, so you start to try to
work out what they're like, and that's how you identify
them in your head by their nicknames. Any unflattering ones,
(02:24):
well there was a very bad farta considering you know
we're sharing what.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Was called stick.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
One was called child soldier because she looks so tiny
in this huge coat with the walkie talkie, and there
was some of the nicer ones were wordsmith because she
knew a lot of like when I would try to
write letters to my family and if I'd forgotten Chinese words,
(02:59):
she would tell me how to write it.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So there was little doses of humanity.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yes, I mean you couldn't. You couldn't have a conversation,
but if it was just a very quick exchange.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And you had cameras, it wasn't. When the doors shut them,
you could talk that they knew they had cameras on
them as well. Yes, and I would imagine the punishment
would be fairly rigid on them if they break the rules.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Definitely, you.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
With the detention that lasted six months.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
That was rsdl R. Next part is detention.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay, to talk us through that, your next little adventure.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So I knew that the six months were coming up,
and I was looking forward to going somewhere else, and
I had found out that I would have cell mates
and that put me in good spirits. I was really
anticipating some human company, not the type that's surveilling. Yeah.
(04:01):
So when I did get to the detention center, which
is just down the say, down the road. It's all
one interconnected facility. Then I had to go through two
weeks of quarantine and that already was a step up
because I didn't have the guards with me all the time.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
So quarantine, you're locked in, locked in the.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Cell by myself. Look at luxury, luxury exactly enough grade. Yes,
I could walk around instead of being limited to the
ten minutes so called exercise times only a few times
a day.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Can I just and something that I should have mentioned.
We talked about the psychological time that you were detained
for the first six months. Were you allowed to exercise
and what were the physical effects it had on you?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Oh my body went haywire. Yeah, hair fell out, purchase
of it for females. And I injured my back sitting
sitting on my bomb. Yeah, just too much sitting. And
(05:17):
the cell was cold. But then later they put in
a heater and I couldn't move for more than a week.
That's a lying in bed all the time. And cried
buckets when I tried to turn around in bed.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
That painful.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That painful. So the lots of insomnia and anxiety all understandable.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Okay, so you're now looking at cell mates.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, so when I talk us through that that I
could imagine that would be so exciting after what the
deprivation that you've had someone that you might be able
to have a communication of communications with.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I used to compare RSDL to being buried alive, and
that I was actually sitting in a coffin, but being
with people again, especially people who were also suffering the
same fate, that was almost like a warm bath, like
coming in from the cold, because we could laugh, we
(06:28):
could make fun of the terrible food together, we could
share some things. Obviously, they warned us not to say
anything about our cases to each other. We weren't known
by our names, we were only known by numbers. But
still these were comrades.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
As comrades, did you share your names? Did you you
on the opportunities if it presented itself, did you tell
a bit about your backstory?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
And of course that all depends on how much you
trust each other and whether you think that person is decent.
After a while, we did share some names, but one
particular cell mate didn't tell me her name until I
was moved out of the cell with her.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Right so, how many cell mates did you have? And
describe the cell and describe the day to day living, I.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Suppose, so you're woken up by Beethoven's for a Lease
piano music. I feel sorry for the composer to be
used in such a horrible place.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Things don't getting with that, yep.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And so we all sleep on there's one long wooden
bed together about thirty centimeters apart, so you try to
not to intrude on the other person's bedspace as much
as possible. But then you're with each other all the
time and you share everything. The toilet doesn't have a door,
(08:05):
and there's a shower cam that looks straight into it,
so whether you're squatting over the toilet, whether you're having
a shower which is only weekly, whether you're washing your stuff,
they can still see. So five cameras in total in
each corner and the shower or the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Do you become accustomed to that and just okay, well
this is what it is. There is no privacy in.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
You do accept that on an intellectual level. But then
when the buzzer sounds because there's an intercom and you
know that they have been watching you doing something, and
then they holler at you that stop doing that, or
even something as innocuous as I remember Mother's Day twenty
twenty three, I had just gotten this book of songs
(08:53):
Chinese songs, and one of them was about that a
singer had written for his mum, and I thought, oh, okay,
we'll learn this. And so the three of us are
sitting on the beds the edge of the bed together
and learning the song, and the buzzer says, stop huddling,
and you just all of a sudden, you think, oh
my god, I've done something wrong. And it's a terrible
(09:15):
feeling because it just kills all the warmth. And you
know that we were sharing at that moment.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Would add to your paranoia or that must just play
with your mind. I can't even comprehend it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So well, that's what they want that you wouldn't even
dare that you would self censor about what you said
and what you did. And also they encourage you to
snitch on your cell mates.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Were you the whole time spent in the cell, Like,
did you have an exercise yard or you allowed out
to exercise.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I don't call it a yard because it's actually still
an extension of the cell. It's still a concrete box
and you can only see a little sliver of the
sky from the windows. So the first time the doors
out of the bell sounded for exercise, I was so excited.
I waited at the door, thinking, you know this is yeah, yeah, exactly, sure,
(10:11):
shank redemption, you know, ideas of the sky and the sun,
and and then and also seeing other people. I didn't
know how it would work. And then it opens and
it's still this concrete box. I'm not sure how that's
different to exercising in the cell.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I saw the exercises were you're doing just to stay sane, and.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So because there were four of us, each of us
would take one corner and you only had about a
meter of space really to do your exercises. And at
the start I was fairly unfit because I had been
sitting on my bum for six months. So I started
to do push ups on the concrete ground, squats and
(10:58):
leg raisers, and later when I got a book on yoga,
some yoga posers. Because we had these cloth shoes, there's
no shock absorption whatsoever, so any cardio was pretty hard
on the joints. So I only did a little bit
of that, but lots of stretches, lots of light jogging
(11:23):
on the ground, and of course no bras, so we'll
try to tie knots under our bust and so on.
So it was very defeminizing.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Again, it's just this ongoing thing. Where is your case
in regards to the process through the legal system at
this point in time.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, I used to be really naive about how long
it would take, and the prosecutor and the officers weren't
going to enlighten me. But once in the cell, I
discovered that state security cases take years. Years to get
to prosecution, years to get to the trial, years to
get a verdict. And the worst I've heard is eight
(12:08):
years in the one cell right.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
In that detention. That's where you're hell, it's not heaven.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Before being sent to prison, which I think is much
worse because in prison you can have family or friend visits,
you get to buy more stuff, you get to meet
more people. Yes, you are forced into labor, but in
some ways that can be positive too because you actually
(12:37):
feel useful.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Well, I think it sort of demonstrates how low they
took you that you're looking at. If I could get
to prison, that would be great.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, yeah, that would be I was looking forward to jail.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
WHOA, Okay, so you're called in this limbo. Did you
form the friendships of the people that you're in in
the cell with in the tension because you have been
living on each other's nerves. I would imagine there'd be
some highs and lawyers of living that close and with people.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of describing it. Highs
and lows. You in one way, really rely on them
because they're the only people who will comfort you, help you,
even if it's something as small as when you buy
something that you don't want, then you can swap with
(13:31):
them for something else. But then, yes, like you said,
there's no respite and we need space. I mean, even
if you were there with your soulmate, with your wife, yeah,
you would hate them after a while. And these are
(13:51):
the people that you didn't choose to be with who
personalities might not be what you look for in a friend.
But yeah, so it's a constant push and Paul in
the dynamics.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
You had one person in there that had the intellectual
discussions that you could add with a but she was
a horrible person. Yeah, yeah, that sucks.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It does. If she was easier, she would have been
much nicer to live with.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And at some stage you will put one out and
the cell with her, yes, and then you had to
complain when it just got too much.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Because I couldn't sleep at night. She was paranoid that
I wasn't letting her sleep by making noise, so she
would get up in the middle of the night and
stand at my door, stand at my bed and ask me,
did you pull up the sheets? Really loudly? I mean,
(14:48):
how loud can.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Pulling up the sheets be okay?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
When I was the one being kept awake by her snoring?
But she was such a bully.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah, well that makes that are uncomfortable. You were the
lights on the whole time.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
The only time in three years and two months that
I experienced darkness was a summer blackout, and I remember
all of us were sitting in the darkness, enjoying the
blackout because for once the lights were off and we
couldn't be seen on the monitors.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, I can imagine that. Other friendships you made in
the in the prison.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I'd say two of the best friends. One I nicknamed
Canto because she's both Cantonese. Another one I nicknamed Hannah
because she loved all things Japanese and Hannah means flower
in Japanese and Canto was there from the day I
arrived until the day I went, and we were friends
(15:55):
because we liked to make fun of everything, and we
both had a dirty sense of humor, and she was
also quite daring, so in some of the naughtiest stuff,
she would always be my sidekick, although I didn't let
her get punished because I knew that being foreign citizen
(16:18):
and also being a journalist, her story was being reported
widely that I would I wouldn't be treated as harshly.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Let's talk about some of those things you got up to,
and these are real Shawshank redemption type stuff that brew
and getting on the drink.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
We didn't, we didn't dig ourselves out of the place,
but we did manage to celebrate Canto's birthday with some
home group homebrew.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And that was putting fruit bills and fermenting or.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yes, it was thanks to COVID that we were given
some apples and we could buy sugar. So the first
batch was all moldy, but I scraped it off and
drank it anyway because it just smelled so beautiful. And
then we made a second batch where Canto faked a
(17:11):
stomach ache and said she wanted hot water so we
could sort of sterilize the cup somewhat. And then later
they were my cell mates because then I was I
went upstairs for quarantine and they said the bubbles popping
in the cup was sounded really dangerous, because just in
(17:35):
case an officer came in for an inspection and heard,
what's that noise?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Alcohol? What was the go with the knocking? The very
complicated system to communicate with prisoners in other cells, It.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Just shows how desperate you become to communicate with other people.
I mean, we only spoke to each other for the
whole three years. Well, obviously I was lucky enough to
have the embassy visits. But when the COVID wave hit
(18:13):
and we couldn't exercise in the yard, they would open
the door to the yard every morning for half an
hour for so called fresh air. So I would stand
near the yard and sing because it had good acoustics.
And then one day I heard a male from next door,
(18:37):
because we were the female cell bracketed by two male cells,
and he said, love your singing and said our cell number.
So I said thank you, and we're really happy. Just
so you know how hard it is to actually be heard.
The walls are so thick that we had never heard
(18:59):
a clear sentence before. They make it so that you don't.
You're never in the yard at the same time because
the odd numbers odd numbered cells and the even numbered
cells exercise at different times. But because of COVID, all
the doors were open for all the cells in the
morning to the exercise enclosure. That is, that was how
(19:20):
we could hear each other, And so we started to
illicitly have these conversations. And because the walls are so thick,
you've got to say something like Gary to actually be heard. Yeah,
And sometimes there would be a wind and it would
either help or hinder the conversation. So then we thought
(19:43):
of a way to communicate inside, which was to knock
on the walls via an alphabetical code.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
We played games and I was trying to understand the code,
and that's two knocks for B, very knocks for C.
Was something someone's coming about loud. But how did the
other cell work out the system? Like, well, I suppose
you've got a lot of time on your hands.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
So we had to devise the code while we were
talking in the mornings. Okay, yeah, during the day explain
the rules, and then during the day practice getting the codes.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
And what joy did that bring to you? Being able
to communicate with other.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
People immense It was like a miracle to know people
who live the same lives as we do and are
just two meters away, but they may as well be
on another planet. And that solidarity, the happiness of hearing
(20:55):
like one night there was a full moon, which I
could see like if I stood in a corner near
the toilet, and so we typed on the wall the
code for moon, and then we knew they were looking
at the moon as well by then because they would
respond with things like wine and romance, because the moon
(21:19):
is a very romantic symbol in Chinese culture.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Iose you talk solidarity, Yeah, it must. You would feel
so isolated in the environment you've moon and it just
almost makes you feel like you've got the connection with
the outside world, even though their prisoners sitting in the
same situation right beside you.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Exactly. We often felt we were living underground and that
we were forgotten by the world, and we didn't know
anything about the world. I mean, yes, sure the TV
was on at night, but the state news is is
(22:01):
not exactly a portrayal of the real world. So anything
that we could find out about other people what was happening,
even if we sniffed garlic in the wind.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
It was the sensors.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, it made you feel like you were still alive
and still in the world.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Were you negotiation skills? You managed to watch the Olympics
and the World Cup soccer, Yeah, and that must have
been a big thing for you.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Empowering. Yeah, and to know that journalistic skills can come
in handy anyway. You know that whole pitching. I guess
when you've worked in journalism as long as I had,
which was close to twenty years, you've pitched for a
lot of interviews and you've gotten a lot of rejection.
So that really prepares you well to speak to people
(22:57):
who are very likely to turn down your request.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, but hit the right the right note, and yeah,
they've got it. Singing was another big thing, like and
it's yeah, it's beautiful and you see what you're going
through where someone's birthday, one of your cell mate's birthday,
the songs prepared for them, and you sing a song
and things like that or Christmas Day says little things
(23:23):
that seemed to you hang on to and keep your sanity.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Absolutely, and that's how you make each day different because
like Wednesday, we're going to learn a new song. And Friday,
we're going to review the old songs. Like I said
on Mother's Day, we tried to find one that was
meaningful for the day. And talking about the lyrics, because
I think as women in there, as mothers and girlfriends
(23:49):
and daughters, you it's it's I mean, it's such a
hard place, devoid of touches of femininity, no color, no beauty,
nothing soft and and that can be released through music.
(24:13):
A lot of Daggy eighty songs.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
You had to remember the lyrics and did you have
to make up lyrics?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Okay, some of them I remembered, well some of them
I tried to guess. And now that I know what
the lyrics are, I have to apologize to my cell worts.
But later, when Nick was allowed to write to me,
my former partner, he would send me print outs of
the lyrics and thankfully they were allowed to come in
(24:41):
via the sensors. But I only had a few hours
to read them. And then because all the letters get
taken out of the cell and if I didn't remember it,
then what would I teach myself.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I'm starting to feel sorry for your cell mates. Now
you just made up these lyrics.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Only some little SNA but like, you know, if I
knew three verses, but then I was a bit sketchy
on the third verse then a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, what about books? That was a salvation for your
books coming into the prison.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yes, because in RSDL it was like to ease pain,
and they were my friends. But then in detention where
I had cell mates but we ran out of things
to talk about, they were conversation starters, and they were
ways in which we could learn together and grow together
(25:34):
and discuss because we figured out that if we didn't
lift ourselves, we would think our brains would atrophy, our
moods would always be dark, and when we went out,
whether it's to jail or to see our family, what
(25:55):
would they see. We didn't want that. So it was
you know, exercise would strengthen our bodies, and then we
would keep our minds active with whether it's absorbing you
knowledge or debating some something in a book, or looking
at the world in a different way.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Keeping your mind active. Yeah, Okay, like your book, Well,
now that you bought that up a shame I don't
have a copy. You did mention that you read Eye
Catch Killers in the detention center.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Very much, very good. I don't want to put you
on the spot, but you've probably read one hundred or
so books there, three hundred three hundred? Is it in
the top ten? You can lie to me here.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
I'm not going to do a top ten. I would
say there were books in there that moved me to
my surprise, or moved me or helped me that I
wouldn't have thought they would. Things like poetry, like philosophy,
history and science, because they all give you different perspectives
(27:06):
on suffering. Like science doesn't care to science, happiness is
just a chemical reaction, and we can do that. We
can engineer it in our bodies like exercise or taking
taking things. But I guess that means you don't feel
(27:26):
sorry for yourself. You don't think of yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Okays, a way of stepping away in exactly situation.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
And the universe, like to the universe, what are we,
We're nothing?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Keeping keeping your more indactive. Yeah, and poetry. You had
a few books on poetry that was helping that that
brings in something that seemed to really resonate with you
when you're in there.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, because we didn't see anything beautiful or hear or
touch anything beautiful. Having the beautiful imagery means that our
minds weren't always on dark things like handcuffs and blindfolds
and being wheelchaired around and being called only by a number.
(28:16):
We could visualize, you know, the gold hush of noon
in the book in the poem My Country by Dorothy
and mckella, and I love Alison Kraggen's She's an Australian
poet who wrote about the Elwood Organic Fruit and Vegetable
Shop because I love fresh produce, and that took all
(28:39):
the descriptions. Yeah, yeah, And there's a bit about damp
warm orchids, damp woman damp like literal kisses, which I
had to explain to Canto.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I wasn't lost in the translation.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It was English. I was able to get English books.
She loved that.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
It seems like you you were the leader of the
ship in there, like the captain.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I was nicknamed teacher.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I was the head troublemaker, and to the extent that
I bought these male underpants for to sleep in. And
then when it was because every month there was a raid,
and when an officer saw these male underpants, she thought
I had somehow smuggled it in from another cell.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Is this person under the bed?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well, yeah, I just think going through that having no sense, like,
I'm sure it's easier to apply yourself if you know, Okay,
i've got to do five years, I've got to do
two years, and I've got one year down. I've got
four years to get whatever. But you were left in
limbo for a long time, weren't you. You had no
idea of how long are you going to be there for?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Well, I signed a leniency agreement yep, by admitting guilt
and accepting punished that. Uh, because I signed it, the
prosecutor would recommend a five year sentence. And there's a
party in the book about bargaining over my sentence, which
is very dark but slightly funny too. And so I
(30:16):
started counting down five years, which would be November of
this year, right, And I just kept thinking, when I
come out, the kids won't be kids anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
You know, I used to think it was twenty years
or I would never get out. So yeah, expectations, they
are a funny thing. And so I was always working
to that date. But then there was also the possibility
that the judge would sentence me to something longer. I mean,
(30:52):
they hold all the power, and defense lawyers can do
very very very little, if anything.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, dealings with the embassy, How did you find that?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, they were so caring. I still keep in touch
with Tony, the consul officer who came almost thirty times
to visit me and one Chinese New Year because it
was the Year of the Rabbit and I was born
(31:29):
in the Year of the Rabbit. He wore bugs bunny
socks to cheer me up. And it wasn't an in
person visit. It was still by video link, so he
had to lift up his foot and it was on
a wonky angle so I could only see a little bit.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
The thought that make a difference.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And actually, at one of the last visits, I wrote
a little poem, very sentimental poem about the about them
being the the fuzzy wuzzies of defat because they're the
only people to make you feel.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Like people are care. Yeah, did you realize? And I
know there's always debate on whether to go public on
situations like this or whether it's better to handle it
behind closed doors negotiations for a release of someone like yourself,
what was your inclination? Did you want to shout it
(32:31):
from the rooftops, look where I am, rather than people
have found themselves in a similar position to you. Yourself
told look, we don't want to blow this up. It's
easier to negotay that without it be becoming public. What
was your thoughts when you're in.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
There, Well, I thought it was better to have publicity,
to have people know what I was going through. But
my family, especially my dad, who has suffered at the
hands of the Communist Party before he came to Australia,
(33:10):
believed that it was better to keep quiet because China
loves its face. But I still I'm still inclined towards
the media telling the story. And there are examples of
(33:32):
my treatment or getting better treatment because I did complain
about the food, about going hungry, and things did improve.
And to the when there was something that they did
that was that was okay, like when they allowed us
(33:54):
to watch the World Cup whatever, I would say that too.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
I thinkness and transparency.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
I think transparency is important. Each case probably judge on
its own merits, but I would imagine if I was
in a situation that you found yourself in, I'd want
it to be out there publicly. Because otherwise you think, well,
does anyone know, does anyone care?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (34:16):
So I can imagine that would help you dealing with
your situation, knowing that they're people you're not forgotten, because
you would feel forgotten in there.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, I like how you maintain your sanity in that situation, Like, well,
you've talked about the books and the communication, the fun
thing things you do. But full credit to you for
hanging in there, because I can just imagine just just
both give up or you just have a sulk and
life ship.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
No, I think. I think if you were in detention,
you would do a lot of exercise and that creates
the endorphins to not let your mind go, keep you going. Yeah,
and helping people, and again that's Ozzie made ship, standing
up for your mates.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Well, I think, and one of your cell mats in
the books you are very timid, timid young lady and introvert.
But you guys took a lot of comfort in trying
to help her through her times.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Exactly when she did something that was out of a character,
like actually perform a little comedy skit for me on
my birthday, when she ate a bit more, when she
enjoyed the cake. The cake. It was so gratifying, and
(35:40):
that probably helps you more than being helped yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, little things. When did you find out you were
going to escape this night mare?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
September twenty seven, twenty twenty three. Okay, first day of
my life?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
How did I'm about?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
So it was Dave of my sentencing, something I had
been waiting for. So I remember, this is a year
and a half after my show trial, which went for
ninety minutes, and I just wanted it to be over.
I just wanted to get to a different place, and
especially to have family visits. So the same deal mine folded,
(36:24):
feet shackled, handcuffed, and then off to the court, sitting
in this little cage. And then the judge comes over
and he's smiling at me. And in all that time
I'd seen him plenty of times before because he had
to preside over every embassy visit, I'd never seen him smile.
(36:45):
And he said, what do you think you're going to
be sentenced to?
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And I said I had a bad dream that it
was eight years. Then he said, I think you will
be satisfied with the sentence.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
What the fuck?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
So that goes the serenity.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yeah, but did you, like until you actually walked out
or till you're on the plane, did you have this
little bit of a hole back going Oh, how could
they might be playing with me?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I was the champion at dampeney expectations because I would
rather think the worst and then be pleasantly always.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Okay and you okay, you've got the finish line. You're
seeing the finish line. What was going through your mind
about getting back and seeing your kids or your family
and then people close to you.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Well, I still had to jump through a few hoops. Yeah,
And the officers always made it sound like there's still
a chance that you were past that you won't be free.
So I was very nervous about Like, can you imagine
(38:04):
if you think you're going to be freed and then
finally that's taken away from you, that devastated.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I can't imagine, honestly can't imagine.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So very tense couple of weeks between the sentencing and
actually going free.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Did you let your cell mates know? Did you go
back to your yourself?
Speaker 3 (38:23):
You?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I couldn't. That was the cruelest thing. I was put
into a different cell on the morning of the sentencing,
and I still remember telling them be good, remember the
song lyrics I'm going to quiz you when I come back.
(38:44):
And I didn't. Yeah, and I And it was before
they had gotten up, so before waking time. And if
I'd known, I would have given them everything because I
had this sort of single it that's the most coveted items,
(39:05):
luxury items. Yeah, yeah, and I know how much any
of my things would have made a difference to them.
And also, but I guess what the officers say does
make sense in that it would be very cruel to
tell them that I was going free while they still
(39:26):
had long sentences ahead of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I can imagine that they'd be happy for you, but
then reflect on their situation. Yeah, that's probably one of
the conditions that makes sense in what they talk about.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
You are also afraid of messages being sent out.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, well that's true. They seem to be afraid of everything.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
They are, and they still are. I think what I say,
what I do, I think still creates.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
You will not to come on my Catch Killers podcast
because I don't want to get in trouble.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
So it might be bad for life going to China.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I can't get that I did I've been to China
a few times. I quite like it. That's beautiful. Yeah,
your physical I laughed because I went not laughing at you,
laughing with you. You hadn't seen yourself in the mirror
for a long time. You saw yourself, So I'm trying
to tell what did you see and what did Were
(40:32):
you surprised by how you changed over the time that
you spent.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, so the only way that to look at ourselves,
to see ourselves was like there's a bit of the
shower head of chrome chrome, or there's a little bit
of acrylic glass near the door that we used to
nickname the mirror, but that doesn't show you look like
(41:01):
that's that's like a shadow of what you look like.
And then in the court mirror, I just saw this
much older and like very pallid, a ghost of who
I used to be, which was kick ass, like always.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Up and ready to gap. It must come as a
shock you don't realize that the toll has taken on you.
And yeah, and actually looking at yourself in the mirror,
and that.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Day for the court, I had already been dressed in
like my the best clothes I'd born in years. You
thought you're right, exactly, that's right. And I looked ship
and this haircut by this woman who didn't have her
glasses on, and I was kneeling on the on the
bed while she did it.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And you trip home, you're on the plane, you come home.
Tell us about that, because I can't imagine the feeling
that you would have getting on the plane and ready
to fly out of the fly out of the country
and get back to see your children.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Something like heart about to burst and wanting to scream
and laugh and jump up. Because I couldn't on the plane,
I tried to buy a red lipstick on duty free,
and then the stewardess asked me, because I only had
the leftover cash from my prison account, she said, do
(42:32):
you have a card? And then all of a sudden
I felt really shy.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
You've been out of circulation.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I couldn't explain why I didn't have a card. Then
I was just babbling for hours to poor Ambassador Graham Fletcher.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
He flew back with you, Yes he did.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
And I was nervous, anticipating it all, uncertain what I
would see. I mean, I hadn't seen the kids for
so long. I saw some photos, but that's so different. Too.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
What age are we talking the kids went from the
time you last saw them to the time you're about
to see them. What how old were they?
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Well, I were eight and ten and then looking at it,
they were twelve and fourteen. Big difference, Yeah, huge difference.
Like I used to hold them like mother hen under
my arms, and now they were well, my daughter was
already taller and my son was catching up to me.
(43:38):
And she had like my daughter had to become independent
going to boarding school, and my mum had aged a
lot in that time.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
She was looking after your son.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, well and aba when she came back on weekends
and hold days.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
So which airport did you land at? And felt there
was there a run up in a big cuddle and cry.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
And they were in a in a room. And I
remember walking along the corridor of international arrivals and just
I was floating, but I also felt a bit nervous
because of how I looked and how I was, and
(44:35):
but it also felt like I was finally home. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
What impact do you think this has had on your kids?
Having their mother away in circumstances like this for so long?
Speaker 2 (44:48):
I think my son in some ways, I mean, I'm
trying to get him out of it. In some ways
is still the eight year old who doesn't know if
mom will ever come back, especially last year. He's a
(45:10):
little bit older this year. Last year he used to say,
promised me, like if I went on a business trip,
promised me, you'll come back. And my daughter is some
I guess you would say, far too independent because she's
had to do everything herself and credit to that. And
(45:36):
both kids have a very warped sense of humor, which
I think helped help them get through.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, you've been parted something unfortunately, look at this was
that only tricking And I've been away for four years
in prison. But how has it changed you as a person?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Oh, in many ways. First of all the appreciation of
freedom and life and just knowing that at any moment
it can all go from you. So if you're not
taking everything you can at life's buffet, you are wasting it.
(46:22):
And that was my message at the Ted talk as well.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
It's an interesting message to take, and that very understandable,
isn't it, because life can just be turned upside down,
not just the way your life is, but anyone's life
could be turned upside down in a moment's notice.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, so don't be complacent, don't be lazy. Yeah, and
the things that you'll regret are risks. You didn't take love,
you didn't show, places you didn't explore, So do all that.
Don't wait.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
It's a good, good message.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
And the SATs and the money stuff, don't worry so
much about that.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Well, it didn't help you out much dinner exactly, sitting
over in your detention center with my little box of
but you did, and yes, single it. You were so lucky.
What are you doing since you've you've got back out,
other than rekindling your relationship with your kids that I'm
(47:27):
sure are annoying you by now as well as well
as much as you miss them.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Can I go back to detention again? Exactly?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
So did it turn your way from working as a journalist? Experience?
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Once I got over the Stockholm syndrome and saw how
much journalists other journalists had helped me, I had rediscovered
passion for it, my passion for it, and I was
very lucky that the Sky News offered me a position,
(48:11):
and that to this day when I do get leads
on arbitrary and wrongful detention stories or other stories of injustice,
that I can actually write about it and tried to
make a difference. That's very healing. But then in some
(48:35):
ways I'm being kept from doing what I'm good at doing,
which is reborn on China, especially after what happened with
Premier Li Chung's visit to Canberra last year, because the
diplomats tried to block me, and then all.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
The Chinese diplomas yes, yep.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
And then all the story is around that gave some
people more of an impression that I was now radioactive
and talking to me was was dangerous. So I get
I get shadow canceled.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
That hurts. There was an extract in your book that
you said, and I see that it still carries carries
with you, like your reputation is important and what you
stand for and the stigma of what you've been through.
Lives were being spread on the Chinese internet, commentary branding
(49:38):
mes China Hating West loving spy. Yeah, I carry my
leper status with complex feelings. Whilst it's an honor to
be revived by a regime that invents an alternative reality
because it cannot look after itself squarely, it is sad
and frustrating to be feared where there is no cause.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah, what are they afraid of? Yeah, well, I'm just
trying to do my job.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I pulled that out because I was reading AK. It's
a nice situation. You're out, you're back, reunited with your family,
you're back working, but you're still carrying something, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Yeah, Like last week I discovered that China's top police
university made a video basically warning people about spies and
probably recruiting students as well, and using pictures of me
and of the Canadian hostage diplomacy victims.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, that that must hurt.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
It's yeah, it hurts, and it's also ridiculous. But I'm
trying to turn the hurt into motivation and into calls
for more openness.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Well, you one of the things, and you probably won't
raise it, but I'll raise it that the You've got
an award Australian Journalist Award the Australian Press Counsel, and
the award was in two thousand and twenty four, twenty
twenty four, and basically it was for your honored for
(51:11):
your resilience and courage. So that's a substantial award. And
I think they resilience and courage, they're pretty good characteristics
to be identified by your peers.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I'm very honored and feel undeserving, But I guess I'll
use the ward to do more, to speak up more.
And with this book and the documentary, it is telling
some uncomfortable well for the Chinese government, and there's so
(51:46):
much fear. It's insidious. It's in our universities, it's in
our government officials, it's in every probably every overseas Chinese person,
and it makes people self censor and affects how they
(52:07):
carry themselves and even make friends. It's terrible. And if
we do do that, if we are bound by those fears,
then we're not free. Yeah, then what's the point of
living in Australia. You may as well be in China.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well, I think, yeah, there's a strong possibility you'll have
an important, important role in the future with what your experiences,
your qualifications and your life experiences as well, that it
is a time for someone like yourself to be speaking
out and putting transparency on what's going on.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
I hope so. But I also want people to think
and understand more than they judge. Sometimes I'm disappointed when
I read very simplistic commentary, very absolutist statements. Stop trading
with China, or why do people go to China like,
like you said, you found China to be fantastic. Yeah,
(53:10):
and how do we accept that the beauty or the
ingenuity of the some of the technology, but then also
be able to look at what's wrong with it and
call a spade a spade.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
M Well, hopefully that can that can occur. Just don't
get yourself in the trouble. Speaking of the time in there,
there's a lot of people that, do you, supported you
and carried you. And these are not I'm not talking
your cell mates or the people that you met at
the embassy, but these are people back home that were
(53:51):
champion your cause. And do you want to give a
shout out to those people and what they meant to you?
What was going on?
Speaker 2 (53:58):
I mean, some of the things I knew about, but
the whole of it I only found out after I
came out, and the first few months I went around
thanking them. Whether it's Anlese. Nielsen who's now based in Washington, DC,
who led the public letter writing campaign, her sister Mary
(54:20):
Macklin from wa who heard about my complete stranger and
somehow was able to get her short but very uplifting
notes through to me. I mean to know that strangers
are praying for you. Let's just yeah, so heartwarming, and
(54:41):
I did go go meet her. Some of the writers
I've already spoken about, and the people you've had on
the show, Peter crist Or, Sean Turnell, and Kylie Moore Gilbert,
Kylie and Peter both wrote to me. Yeah, former Prime
Minister John Howard, who wrote this fantastic, pitch perfect letter
(55:03):
to a senior Chinese leader, and of course the defat
officers who came to visit me. Would you believe that
on the day of my freedom flight, Tony from the
embassy still wore colorful.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Socks like maybe he just likes color.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
He said he was watching me like it sounded like
a spy novel, the whole you know, waiting around the
tarmac watching me get on.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
I knew it.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
And my my number in detention was actually double O
three as opposed to double seventh.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
You could never get to double seven double three. That
seems pretty cool, double three okay, that's yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
And all my peers in the media who kept my
story from going cold, and all as saying they believed
in me and that I should be freed. And of
course my former partner, Nick Coyle, who did so much too,
(56:14):
tell journalists what was happening, to speak to diplomats, and
to write all these wonderful love letters to me that
my cell mates couldn't believe, because the common thing in
China is once you've been inside, you're tainted, right, and
(56:36):
people should abandon you.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
It's the next communication helped you, helped you get through.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
It so much. And even seeing those awful comments online,
Nick made a joke. He said, what you should do
is a semi nude spread buried in mounds of cash,
surrounded by oiled out Brazilian toy voice. If they say
I'm spy and you know, yeah, well fling it in
(57:02):
your face, full spy.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yeah. I look that that type of humor that comes
through in your book, and I really enjoyed, enjoyed reading
the book. It's thank you got the sense of who
you were and the strength of character, and you know,
it's the award that you've got for your courage and
your resilience that certainly came through in the book. But
I didn't realize you were going to be so funny.
(57:27):
I'm going to add humor to it. But and the
other thing is it's great when journalism gets a lot
of criticism. Doesn't and it gets a lot of criticism,
but it's so important and it can Making sure that
people tell stories like they supported you is something that
we need to stand strong on.
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah. I think we have to become good journalism consumers
and we can all be citizen journalists. So it's all
about integrity and whatever we do.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah, well, you're very good at what you've done. Because
I haven't cracked you. I was going to get this
was going to be the big scoop for Catch Killer.
See I told you she was a spot. You beat me.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
I have to go back to see me behind the wheel.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Your kids have sent me the video of your trying
to reverse part. Thank you so much for coming on.
I really enjoyed the chat. And yeah, good luck in
the future. And quite impressive what you've been through and
still come out with a smile on your face.
Speaker 2 (58:35):
Thank you, Gary. She's
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