If I didn’t go to jail, I’d be dead: Danielle Hogan Pt.2

Danielle Hogan was busted dealing cocaine as part of a huge drug syndicate. To prepare for prison, she took boxing lessons and even wore five pairs of underwear the day she was sentenced. From an inmate turning the whole jail against her to a violent prison fight where she was kicked in the ribs, Danielle shares why being locked behind bars saved her life and how she turned her life around.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.

(00:46):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with Daniel Hogan.
Danielle grew up in one of Sydney's most affluent suburbs,
but found her self caught up in a large scale
dialer dealer drug syndic it. We left part one with
Daniel been sentenced three years and ten months imprisonment. Now
we're going to talk about her time in prison, how
she survived, and what being behind bars taught her. Danielle

(01:09):
also talks about what she's doing now and how she's
trying to make a difference working with a group of
ex prisoners for an organization known as Confit and the
new business called inside Out. Daniel Hogan, Welcome back to
Part two of I Catch Killers. Thanks having me Okay, Well,
part one was interesting, entertaining, sad, Yeah, full of my life,

(01:33):
full of emotions and yeah, I always knew there was
a story here and the different things that you've experienced
in life. For those that didn't hear part one, we
talked about your childhood where you grew up in surnives
and then when you were sexually sold as a teenager,
which was sort of a watershed moment in your life
all the way that you viewed the world. Then we

(01:54):
talked about poor relationship choices it's like dating advice on
eye Catch Kill. And then how you found your way
into a situation where you were caught up in a
not caught up. You were working for a large scale
dial a dealer, drug synding it deal in cacaine on
eastern suburbs and CBD. You got the rested and you

(02:19):
a made a career choice that you needed to head
in a different path. But it looks like you made
the choice too late and you got the rested. And
that's where we left you in part one. So we're
talking about the cell complex at Surrey Hill's police station.
So the police have come in and rested you. You
didn't get grunted bail and you were kept there. You

(02:39):
were telling me a story before about what it was
like in the cells at Surrey Hill. So as a
cautionary tale to anyone that thinks is a glamorous life
to be had in crime, tell us your experience there.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh, there's absolutely nothing glamorous about it.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Look, you handed a bar of soap that I'm not
even sure was soap at the time, and you're given
a toothbrush that you kind of is because half the
time the water doesn't work in the cells. So yeah,
the story that I was telling you was basically, I
think it was day three or four. I had a
knock at the cell hogan you know, you can go
for your shower, and now I thought, oh, great, thanks,

(03:13):
this is this is my opportunity finally, and I was
walked to this massive hallway where back of this hallway
you could see two glass glass doors with the showers behind.
And so there was a part like a partition or
sort of like a part that covered those doors, but

(03:35):
the part of that only covered sort of like your stomach.
So I'm going, what's the point in that, you know,
it's not really covering all the parts that need to
be covered. So, as I'm walking towards those shower doors,
I looked to my left and looked to my right,
and there were four cells, and best believe, there were
only men in those cells. And I think it was

(03:55):
a Saturday or Sunday night, which meant all of those
cells were completely filled with males. And I burst into tears, going, Okay,
I really need slush, want a shower, but I do
not want to shower in front of all of these men,
because God knows, you know, what crimes are in here for.
So yeah, as I'm being led to led to the

(04:17):
showers of pretty much a tea towel in my hand,
there was this Cory bloke, this older male, which luckily enough,
he saw what was about to go down, and he
winked at me and he goes, don't worry, Sis, I've
got you. And as I step into the shower, you
know the sixty seconds timer the shower turns on, and
he was grabbing all the pieces of foam, which some

(04:39):
people unfortunately call a mattress in those cells, and he
started placing whatever pieces of foam he could against the
glass so that none of the men could see that
I was showering. And then you know, the rest of
the other cells kind of followed suits. So it was
it was a scary time, but it was actually such
a beautiful thing knowing that, you know, people were actually

(04:59):
coming together and we're trying to make me feel.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
Safe, a little bit of humanity in the dark place.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
Absolutely, and I followed it, definitely followed suit. So when
I returned back to my cell, you know, right around
the corner, I kind of would have gotten around that.
You know, there was a above average looking girl that
was in there, and you know I had another another
older male sort of sing me to sleep, which was

(05:25):
really nice. But then I also had another girl that
came into the cell quite late at night, and she
had done quite a lot of time prior to that,
coming off some very heavy drugs, but really took the
time to actually acknowledge that I was there, I was
a human being. I'd never been there before. And so
the first thing she said was you ever been to

(05:46):
Gel said.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Nut, How did she pick that? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right, she goes, I said nah.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
She goes, yeah, I didn't think so she goes, all right,
she goes, don't worry, she goes, I'll help you out.
So from there, she said, of she was showing me
how to make my bed and you know, sort of
giving me tips and tricks that were that were going
to get me through. And then I was really sad
when we set of parted ways over the next few days.
But then I luckily ran back into her at silver

(06:12):
Water just when the time called for it.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
So yeah, she definitely took care of me.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
So you've spent three or four days in the cells
and people don't understand the process. You're arrested by the police.
We're talking New South Wales here. If it was in Sydney,
you had bail refuse, so you were to be held
in custody and normally there's a trend holding cells at
Surrey Hill's police station that you've talked about, and then
you get moved to a prison if you still haven't

(06:40):
got bail. So that was the trip to prison. How
scared were you, because like so we sit here and laugh,
but you described yourself at the time that you were arrested.
You had long blonde haird down your back. You looked innocent,
and you were going into prison. That must have been
scary for.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
It absolutely just not average our jailbirds. So I was terrified.
But you know, from watching shows like Wentworth or Oranges
in You Black, you know, everything tells you that you
can't show your fear, you can't appear scared, and so

(07:18):
I just thought, you know, whatever's going to be will be,
and so I did my absolute best to put on
a brave face. I got to Silver Water, which is
pretty much maximum security until they figure out what they're
going to do with you. And so imagine there's so
many girls on a remand there so basically remind is
girls that haven't been sentenced yet, girls that have no

(07:41):
idea what their future holds. You've got women that have
just come to like off of the streets, so they're
coming down off drugs.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
That is like the.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Most volatile and like heightened experience you can ever have
because you don't know who you're talking to, whoever, whoever
they appear to be. In the first five minutes different
a day later. So it was terrifying because you're like,
I don't know who to make connections with. I don't
know who to be open with. Everyone always says you
don't talk about your crimes, and so I was just

(08:11):
in this state of confusion, and so I really shut down,
didn't want to talk about anything. Like you said, I
had been refused bail, which meant I was constantly trying
to fight for the phone, which it is a fight
every time to try and get on a call you know,
your lawyers or your loved ones to explains what's going
on or try and find out what can happen from here. Basically,

(08:33):
I receive word from my lawyers that we can apply
for Supreme court bail. It's very unlikely in this instance,
but they were going to try for it anyway. So yeah,
we went from there.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Because you were charged with commercial quantity drug supply half
a killer. Yeah, okay, so that's yeah, that's a potentially
very lengthy sentence. Had you got to speak to your
parents at this stage by that.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Point, yeah, I think it was like ten days. I
had finally spoken to my parents, and obviously I was
nothing but apologetic, and you know, all they could say
was it's fine, like this is you, Now, this is
up to you. You know, we just want you to
be safe, We want you to be careful.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
I don't think we often consider the people left on
the outside, Like I can imagine your parents obviously, and
the way that you've talked about them, that they love
and care for you and they're decent people, how hard
it would be for their daughter to be in the
situation like that, And basically the only thing you can
say is yeah, be strong and look after yourself absolutely.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
And this is it's a very touchy point for me,
Like we can speak about everything, we can speak about
my traumas and the things that I've been through, but
the only thing that hits hard and hits home the
most for me is the impact it had on my
family and my mates. Like, while I know it was
disappointing and upsetting for them because they obviously had to

(09:58):
wear the wrath of you know, people coming to them,
employers coming to them, or extended family asking like what
the hell? Like we remember Daniella's this you know, inspiring
young kid, and now Watch's in jail.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
So I feel sick that I wasn't there.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
To be the one to explain, you know, why I
was the way that I was, and that it had
nothing to do with my family or nothing to do
with my upbringing. It still hurts so much now, is
because every time I try and communicate that with my
family or even try and bring up the last few years,
my Mum will cry on cue every time, which I

(10:36):
can see anything in this world. I could probably see
someone murdered in front of my eyes, but seeing my
mother cry, I can't. And so yeah, it sucks because
the last thing I ever wanted to do was disappoint them.
But it almost hurts even more the understanding that they have,
and every every time we speak about this, they will

(10:57):
always say the same thing. They always say that you
had to go through what you what you did in
order to become the person that you are now, or
to do what you do for for work, or to
do what you love, you know, And it almost sucks
because it kind of discounts what they went through, you know,
and everything that they did for me, because they did
so much foremen I was inside.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
But it's never about them. It's always like, we did
what we had to do and we got through it.
But all we're worried about is you? And I think
that that's what the definition of being a parent is.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, this is a definition that's a burden of being
a parent too, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, they've got you got your for life and unfortunately,
I'm sure there were moments when they they like but you.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Know what, they did their best and when I mean
their best, they went above and beyond.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
It's just hard and so many people that have been
inside and they look at the pain that they've caused
people close to them and all that. But we're going
to get you surviving through prison at this stage. So
you've gone in there, had the media hit in the prison,
so they are aware that you were the Kcaine dealer
from the and suburbs.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, that's when the media originally hit.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
Luckily enough for me, I didn't have any awareness to
it because I wasn't able to hear or read or
see anything. So my family and friends didn't want to
relay anything. Yep, obviously didn't want to stress me out.
So luckily enough, I actually received Supreme Court bail two
weeks after I was arrested.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
I was then on bail for two years just before.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
We get out of there because you've mentioned another thing
and I don't think we've covered on the podcast that
the lady that you met in the Surrey Hills and
this is a stroke of good luck. So we talked, Calma,
this might have been your karma. She was in Silver War.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
The prison, thank god for that.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
And what did she say and do for you?

Speaker 3 (12:50):
So as soon as so you're kept in yourselves for
a few days, and then as soon as I was
released sort of onto the compound, this is like dumping ground.
This is this was scary shit, you know, And again
didn't know who to talk to. There were people trying
to stand me over for my food. There were people
trying to stand me over for the way that I look,

(13:11):
trying to date me, trying to sexualize the whole situation. Whatever,
and anyway, I was walking up to the office one
of these days, and thank god I saw her, because
she immediately ran towards me and then said to all
of her like everyone that she had known there, she goes,
this is my girl, she goes, I know her, She's

(13:31):
a beautiful person. She goes, none of you fuck with her.
And she was just she was someone in the system
who is so known and is so respected that that
was such a sigh of relief for me.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
How I can only imagine how it made you feel,
and like walking into the yard for the first time
might just yeah, it must have been so scary for it.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
It's nothing that high school can even prepare for, Like.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Well, you went to four different high schools. That can
be scary your first day at Playlightech, but this is
it was another level exactly.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
None of that was like you just never thought you
were going to get bashed or sexually assaulted or you know,
this was an entirely different ballgame. This was arguing with
idiots like this was a you don't you really nothing
prepares you for this moment because you just you don't
know how to act. If I was too articulate, if
I word it things some ways, girls would then get

(14:23):
offended and think that I'm trying to trying to offend
them using bigger words, or you know, if I was
trying to speak sort of street or I was trying
to act a certain way, then girls were smart enough
to figure out that I was acting or there was
no middle ground. You know, it sends you into an
absolute frenzy. For someone that was still trying to build
her personality. You're going, holy shit, like I don't know,

(14:45):
I don't know who to be, how to be?

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, yeah, Well we had going back a couple of years,
Mindy Satori, who does a lot of work in jail
activism and also like helping prisoners before they've gone in,
giving a not a cheat sheet, but giving instructions on
how people should behave when they go in the jarl
because people like yourself, like the little things that you

(15:09):
would have been taught by your mate when you first
met her at the Sydney Police Cells would have been
invaluable for you, like going into prison, how they react.
And you've been through the system now say you know,
but when you first walked in there, you wouldn't have
had any idea.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Absolutely no idea.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
And this is why I'm honestly, I'm so grateful now
for initiatives that are being set up since my release.
So we were going to mention later, but I'll say
it now. So I've recently been working with a coalition
keeping women out of prison, and the work that they've
been doing over the last several months is just inspiring
because they're finally acknowledging the importance of the lived experience

(15:48):
model and bringing real voices in real time, bringing these
women into situations, into policies and government level staff of saying,
you know, this is what they need and why they
need it is because of xyzed. So seeing all of
that stuff come out now and being a part of it,

(16:09):
it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
Well, we'll talk more in depth about that, and also
the aspect of women in prison that are often the
forgotten prisoners compared like the public's perception is that it's
all jails are filled with men, but there's a lot
of women in prison, and I think a number of
women in prison is increasing as well as I understand that.
So we'll talk about that you got bail. So two

(16:32):
weeks you spent at silver Water minus a couple of
days in the luxury resort that the Surrey Hill police cells.
How did it feel when you got bail?

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Honestly, it was my saving grace.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
I'm not a godly person, I'm not a religious person,
but I remember the night before my Supreme Court bail,
I was on the top bunk of a two person cell.
Beneath me was a severe schizophrenic and we were both
screaming out loud this night, and I thought, stuff, while
she's screaming, I'm gonna pray to God, which I haven't done,

(17:03):
you know, since I was a kid, And so I
basically said to God, if you grant me this opportunity,
you know, I'm going to do everything I can to
turn my ways around and to try and you know,
make the most of it. I'm grateful for the fact
that although I was sentenced and sent to jail two
years later, if I had gone to jail in those

(17:25):
two years, I was not mentally prepared. I was mentally
health wise, I was not ready, meaning I was so
sick to the point where I've got suicidal tendencies, I've
got depression, I've got anxiety.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Rather la la lah on paper, you know, I know
that I would not have lasted.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
So I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to spend
those two years out of jail, to redefine myself and
to actually prepare myself for what came next.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Because in that two years, as you would entertain some degree,
I hope that you would know, with the charges and
the strength of the police case, the possibility is that
you're going to go inside. So two years out. Did
the world look different after the first two weeks in
there when you got out, did you go why did
I do this? Why have I put myself in this position?

(18:14):
What was your attitude?

Speaker 3 (18:16):
Absolutely like, naturally you have that why did I do this?
How did I get here? How can I fix it?
But I think in such an early stage, I came
to the conclusion that I can't fix it. I'm the
fixer of my life. I always have been.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
I've always been the one.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, I've always been the one that pulls myself out
of shit or just has to get by. But I
think I came to a point where I was like,
you know what, although everyone's being so hopeful and thinking
that I'm going to get home detention, or that I'm
going to get let off because it's my first offense,
whatever else, I was like, I just had this internal
feeling that I'm like, I'm going to jail. And I

(18:57):
didn't hate it at first. Obviously you resist the idea
thinking oh my god, jail's horrible, but I was going,
you know what, it's either death, rehab, romain a junkie
or Joe.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Okay, So, even at that stage, with the threat of
a lengthy jail sentence. You could see the positives in
them always.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
I think that's just kind of who I was raised
to be. But you know, unfortunately your lawyers need to
make it the worst of the worst outcome. So I
was being told what I was getting charged for, so
I think it was like a maximum of like something
stupid like fifteen years. Yea, you know, And in my
mind I was going, no, like that's not going to happen,

(19:39):
No way. I was preparing for like five years. But
I didn't know what those five years look like because
no one no one really understands or explains the system correctly, right,
because no one truly knows the outcome. So people can't
give you false hope, but at the same time, they
can't give you the worst of the worst out.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Well, there's precedence, but all cases are judged individually. Yeah,
you can't really anticipate what the sentence. But seeing what
you had, I would have an expectation you were going
to go inside. What did you do to prepare yourself
in those two years.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
You already know?

Speaker 3 (20:13):
So look, I just tried to upskie myself. I tried
to do whatever I thought I could to. Let's say,
like look good in the magistrate's eyes. So I was
completing courses about self development or rehabilitation. I was working
pretty much full time. I was trying to start up businesses.
I was hanging out with more positive people like whatever

(20:35):
I could. But then several months out of my sentencing,
I thought, Okay, if I'm going to jail, I need
to I need to get ready, and so I did that.
I connected with an old friend who is a personal trainer,
and he's a boxer.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
So we started. Yeah, we started boxing.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Sorry I'm laughing because we've already had this joke when
we're speaking the other days, when you were telling me
how you were boxing and getting prepared for prison, and
I couldn't but help make reference to the movie Getting
Hard with Will Ferrell and Kevin Hart. If you haven't
seen the movie, you probably don't understand the joke. But
if you have seen the movie, you'll understand. This was

(21:18):
Will Ferrell was being sent to prison. He was a
nerdy accountant, and Kevin Hart was teaching him be a
tough guy to survive in prison. Oh.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
Look, and they definitely got me prepared. Like, while I
did you know, sort.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Of did you watch that movie while you were preparing
did that movie come out. It would have been around
about the must.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Have been on a subconscious level.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
I must have thought, this is what I need to do,
because I started the boxing classes, but I had to
take it a step further.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
So I think I don't.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Know if it was how to make a shive for yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
No, Look, I think he got really shitty tatoos, like
maybe on his bum or something.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
So I didn't go that. I got really shitty hand tatoos, thinking,
you know the gel demographic, get some really ugly tatoos.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
No one will picked me for the first time. Oh God,
but I look, it sounds like you made the most
you could in those two years that you were out,
and I would imagine you, Yeah, you probably became closer
to your family. Your family would have been really struggling
with the thought that you're going to go inside and
not having any idea what's going to happen when you

(22:18):
go inside. That's it's a scary place.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, And that was the hardest part was I couldn't
read my family because and my friends because at the
same like, everyone around me was putting on a brave
face because they felt like they had to because they
all thought that I was the only one going through this,
that this is me. But like seeing how much it
was impacting everyone without them trying to show how I

(22:41):
was impacting them sucked the most.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Ye.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
So although on paper like I was completing all these
things and I was doing whatever I could, I was
still suffering with like severe PTSD from my previous relationship
that I hadn't dealt with.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
I was dealing with a drug addiction.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
I was still like, they were still all of these
things that parts, yeah, that I couldn't shake. But this
is why I kind of called jail my saving grace
is because genuinely, I think going to jail was probably
one of the best things I could have done.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, that's an interesting thing because I and yeah, this
is where the system probably works, because if you didn't
get a custodial sentence, you would have you would have
been nervous leading up to it. But if you were
allowed to just walk free, maybe you could have fallen
back into old habits, or you wouldn't have learned the
lesson hard enough.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
To be honest, it just would have proven what the
rest of like my prior life had proven, and that
was I get away with bloody matter like now, accountability,
no accountability whatsoever. I've always just managed to skim past
in life, you know, call it winging it or whatever.
But I've never for a lot of the things that
I've done, I've just always managed.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
To get away with.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Well, good on you for recognizing it, because a lot
of people date ye self reflection as you locked up
in the cell. But no, but that that shows that
there is a development and is something that you've recognized,
because yeah, if you keep getting away with things that
there's no lessons learned.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Is it exactly?

Speaker 3 (24:10):
And look to be honest, it was no no accreditation
to corrective services at all. I definitely put in the
work myself. I may I made that decision that I
wanted to change, that I was going to turn my
life right.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
You pleaded guilty, Yeah, okay, that's sentencing. You turn up
with your toothbrush, that's it. I actually bring your tooth bras.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
I turned up with about five pairs of undies on
and inside one of those I had maybe like a
tiny piece of paper like a posted note size, with
all of my numbers scribbled on them.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
I learned that from some of my friends prior to Yeah,
the girl that I'm speaking.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
You learned that from Getting Hard the movie.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
I learned that from Getting On. Yeah, but.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
I wasn't. Look, you're never prepared for a thing like that.
You never prepared for you know, the outcome, let alone,
what's going to happen in that In that initial courtroom,
the conversations that it had, it was an absolute shit show.
It was adjourned several times, which really threw a spanner
in the worst.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
You're in the mindset, Okay, today might be the day,
and then it gets adjourned, and that's good, but yeah,
it's bad in the way too.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
So the first time I was like, cool, I've got
more time. Second time I was like, yeah, I'm getting
over it. Third time I was like send many dollar
at this point, like you so, because it's it's heightening
everyone around you lack emotions And is today that the
last day that we see.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
Her and your family and close friends would have been there? Yeah? Again,
how hard is that for them?

Speaker 2 (25:50):
Again?

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Everyone everyone put on such a brave face and it
killed me, Like it.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Something in a theme, let's.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Call it, in my entire life, in my family and whatever.
Because everyone is always so focused on the positives. We
don't talk about the hard shit. We don't talk about
the real things. So that's always been an issue that
I've struggled with and something that I'm still actively trying
to work on now is creating those really uncomfortable conversations. Yeah,
but having them they're important, and we did, We truly

(26:21):
did start having them before I went to jail, which
is important. But then yet on days like sentencing, you're
going just say something like tell me how you really feel, please,
But everyone just wanted to make sure that look, due
to my mental health history, that I was okay, first
and foremost, that I understood what was going on and
that everything was fine, that no matter what the outcome was,

(26:42):
that they loved me.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
So that's a messaging. I'm just breaking it down. In
my mind. I can imagine walking in there with your parents.
You're probably traveling together and making small talk. Get there
and walk in there, and then it comes to the
court start and your mum's probably give your cuddle, might
be for the last last time for a very long time,

(27:04):
and then you got to go sit and see what happens.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Yeah, the hardest, Like I can laugh about it now,
but the hardest part was when we were driving in
the last time my dad. My dad's my hype man, right,
so's he's the driver and he's trying to get the
tunes going and building the excitement and whatever.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Put on this one song.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
And I always look on the bright side.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
No, it was something from the lyrics were basically like
come home, like you're coming home, like i'll see I'll
see you soon. And then the was that you didn't like.
I didn't So as soon as I think that was
the first thing I said when I jumped Oh was
Bertie whatever? Yeah, one of Bertie's lyrics was something about

(27:49):
coming home. And then the first time, so i'd been
probably like ten or eleven days that I hadn't spoken
to my parents for as soon as I jumped on
the phone to my dad, I was.

Speaker 4 (27:58):
Like, well, those lyrics are right. It didn't quite cut it,
didn't you. Okay, So you're there, You've gone through the
court proceedings. There's a lot of stuff that goes on,
and that it's hard when you're sitting there and they're
talking about your life, your future, the things that you've done,
and you're sitting there and almost like a side piece
to what's going on. We've everyone talking about you, not

(28:21):
so much to you, and then the judges you've been
found guilty or you've played guilty, and the judge has
to hand down the sentencing. What sentence did.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
You get again, Because, like you just said, because you're
kind of sitting on the sidelines of your entire life,
I couldn't really understand what was happening to get complicated
with and some of the terminology they use. I'm like,
why dumb it down for a person?

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Please, you know, hold up a sign, please, you've got this.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
I need subtitles at that point.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
But I just remember this, this pivotal moment of my
barrister speaking to the magistrate and saying, like you could
you could tell that we were really, you know, trying
to pull every string we could at that point, because
my magistrate turned around saying, you know, if you send
her to jail, there's going to be a target on
her back because of all the media attention.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
I was like, as if that's something you'd mentioned in
a court room.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
But anyway, your defense said said that to the magistry.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
Like basically put out all the media attention that was
that was put out prior to that saying, do you
realize what you're doing to this young girl? If you're
if you're about to send it at a prison, like
you're basically putting her in harms way, And so I
remember hearing that and going hmm, like that's going to
be on the news. And then I looked over at
the magistrate and then before I knew it, the magistrate

(29:42):
was handing down my sentence, wouldn't even look at me,
and all I heard was four years, ten months, and
in my mind, I was like, oh my god, I'm
going to jail for four years. It's all like, I
was like, what I There's no emotion you can even
describe at that point when you hear something like that.
I think I let out like a nervous laugh. So
I was like, oh shit, like this is okay, plot.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Twist laughing at yourself.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, I'm going, oh okay, what now? You know? This
is insane.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
So from there it was, honestly, I think I felt
like I was in a dream state, like it didn't
feel real at all. I remember looking to all of
the seats, so my family, some of my friends were there.
Everyone was crying, obviously, and then I remember looking at
my barrister. He walked over to me and he just

(30:30):
started thrying cash, and I was like, what is happening
right now? But it's because no one tells you again
you need physical money, Like you can't go in with
a credit card. You know, you need cash on you
to put anything in your account. So he's throwing me
whatever he could. I'm trying to catch all of it.
And then I had two officers walk over to me,
handcuff me, and then walk me past all of my

(30:53):
friends and family to basically in the smallest elevator I've
ever seen, to then go beneath the beneath the Dunning
Center Court cinema.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Your family say there when you've been walked past in handcuffs.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
I don't even remember words, to be honest, I just
remember I kind of like flung my arms around them
in handcuffs to hug them. Wasn't allowed to do that,
so arms were removed instantaneously because it was during COVID
as well, mind you. Yeah, so yeah, that happened. And
then I just remember my dad kind of nodding as
if to say, like, you'll be all right. I think,

(31:28):
out of everyone, I think my dad and I were
kind of the only two that recognized that I was
going to jail, that I was going to be sentenced
to present so kind of gave me the look of
it's okay. And then yeah, I walked into the tiniest
elevator I've ever seen, and I just remember handcuffs in
front of me.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
I look at the handcuffs. I look down.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
I'm in stilettos, and I just started laughing because I
was like, this is a weird shit. Ever, I'm like,
what what is happening right now? You know you can't
write this stuff?

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
So yeah, from there, I was thrown into a dry cell,
strip searched all the rest of it, and that that
was a pivotal moment for me. Everyone always says it's
you know when you're arrested, or you know, when you
spend a few days in jail whatever. No, no, no,
That that was the moment that I was like, this
shit needs to change now.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, when the sentence where you're looking down the track
of spending news in prison.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
Yeah, I just thought about things really quickly and I
was like, you know what, no one's coming, Like, no
one's coming to save me.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
This is up to me now.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
That's the thing that I don't think and it's important
that people have experienced talk about it because I've seen
the look of shock on people's faces when they're actually
going to jail. What And yeah, I explained to it,
and I explained it in hard terms sometimes to people. No,
your life, as you've known, that has ended at this
point in time, and now everything you do will be

(32:54):
controlled by someone telling you what to do at what time,
and you have no idea. But that's that's the consequences
of going to prison.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
And it was kind of like a double edged sword,
right because, like you said, like it's that acceptance that
nothing that happens from here on out is up to you.
But at the same time, it kind of is like
your mentality is up to you. Fair Enough, you're told
when to eat, went to sleep, when to go to
the whatever. But your mentality of how you drive this

(33:23):
entire several like next few years, that's all up to you.
You can either remain a victim, you know. I experienced
so many girls in there that were so mad at
the system, was so mad at their friends or whoever
they thought that they were in there because of And
I would always rebuttal with like no, like you're in

(33:43):
here because of you, Like yeah, and I recognize, like
I got myself here and although I have all this
support on the outside, they're not the ones that are
in here every single day going through what I'm about
to experience, Like I either had to man the fuck
up and decide that whatever I do from here on
out is completely up to me, or I can just

(34:05):
sort of give in.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, well, that that mindset is probably dictates how you're
going to do the time and how you are when
you come out, if you come out. So you're on
the on the prison van heading heading to prison. How
did that feel when you realized it wasn't sort of
the silver Water experience where you're expecting to get bail.
You know, this is now your life for a substantial

(34:29):
period of time. How did you feel?

Speaker 2 (34:31):
It was interesting?

Speaker 3 (34:32):
I think because I was not prepared, but I had
a taste to it prior. I kind of knew boxing train, Yeah,
I was ready, you know, gloves, I don't know. I
kind of I sort of knew what to expect. I
knew the conversations I was going to be having. I
knew how to handle the girls. What I wasn't expecting

(34:54):
was the fact that it was during COVID and it
was during Christmas and years, so I didn't my cell
for over a month, and that was the scariest part.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Were you in the cell on your own, which.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Was even scarier I would have preferred. I love my
own company.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
I'm good, You're safe, you know, but you're always you're
put in with someone that you have no idea about who.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
We're sharing with without giving up the name, Yeah I was.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
I was putting with a girl who we actually ended
up becoming really close friends at the end of it.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, once we separated, once we left parted ways.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
But at the time she was coming off a lot
of drugs when we were thrown in the cell together,
so I didn't hear from her for the first I'd say,
like five six days.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yeah, you just got this body, basically a.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Literal body, like I just checked that she was breathing
every couple hours. She just slept.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
But then when she woke up, one of the funniest
people I ever met, you know, just so down to earth,
like same things, so so loved life. Just so I
wouldn't I wouldn't say innocent, but just had this thing
about her where she made every moment important when she
was awake. Yeah, you know, And so we had a
great time, like all through Christmas. We would never forget

(36:06):
this time. We freaked all the screws out. One time,
I think it was Christmas Eve.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
We had baby powder.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Yeah, and so we had a we had a plate
out one day and they obviously, like the officers knew
what I was in for. So we put all the
baby powder on the plate and we started coming it up. Yeah,
and they would and they would come and do night checks,
but they'd walk to the veranda side, so you've kind
of got like a massive like glass screen.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
View of our skirls. And so they walked past and
we're pretending that we were doing lines off this off
this red plate, and so they ran in and like
tried to cause the scene and we're just like, ah,
it's maybe powder like sucked in. Like little things like that.
It seriously gets you by.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Well, I suppose you got to find the joy in
those little little.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Moments you do, and there's so many of them in there.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
When you're out with the population, And did you have
to adjust your attitude and absolutely what sort of changes
did you have to make?

Speaker 3 (37:01):
We both did, and that was that's what kind of
became the beautiful thing. Is like when we'd returned back
to our cell, like we could be ourselves, you know,
but when we're out there, we'd have to be brave,
we'd have to be short, we'd have to be quick
witted with you know, remarks or that type of shit,
Like you just had to be defensive all the time.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
And that was a sad reality.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
Like for me, it was one thing, but for my roommate,
for example, she was Indigenous, but she was white indigenous,
so she's fighting battles that I couldn't even handle, you know,
her own people weren't even accepting of her. So even
seeing that, I was going, fuck, like, I have it hard,
but there's other people here that have it so much harder.
So that's the thing that people don't recognize, is like,

(37:47):
and kind of what made it easier for me is
recognizing that every single person that was on that compound,
we're all fighting our own battles. We would all go
back into our cells of an afternoon and be like,
oh my god, I just had to do that, including
the bullies, including the standovers, including you know, all of
these people that seem like the toughest and the roughest,
like they're putting on the front as well, they're.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
All just people and then going back in the cell
and just like they can switch off the Yeah, did
you experience or encounter violence in there?

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Absolutely? Those those boxing classes definitely came to.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Use, right, Okay, so health your hands up.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Not for only only for one like serious occasion, I'd
say so. From silver Water, I got moved to Windsor yep,
and that was easily my scariest time. So that was
minimum security, but that meant you're put on a compound
like an area of about three hundred women, and anyone

(38:44):
can imagine three hundred women what that looks like. You know,
it was crazy. There was just honestly, it felt like
you're in year ten again. There's so much bitchiness, there's rumors,
there's whatever. So day one of me being there, I'm
pushing through this massive thing of all my clothes and
all of the newcomers with me.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
It was lockdown.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
So all of the girls were looking out through their
rooms obviously like the new fresh meat on the compound,
and so everyone had sort of seen who I was
whatever else. And then the next day, I'm walking around.
Luckily I made a friend because I lived in the
same area as her at the time, so we became
very chummy very quickly, and she was honestly, I believed

(39:28):
at one point she was my guardian angel for what
came next. So anyway, we're walking around one day and
I think this was the second day, and I had
one of my coal offenders come up to me. And
I didn't know a that two coal fenders could be
in the same jail at the same time. But also
I didn't know that she disliked me the way that

(39:51):
she did, so we never really got along like in
the past. But it was very high by there was nothing,
you know, too serious. So I walked up to her
being friendly, being nice. Who I am, Oh, I can't
believe we're here together, blah blah blah, And she was
met that same energy, exactly the same, Oh, I'm so
happy you're here, Come and see me later this or
the other. Continue to walk anyway, Later that afternoon, I'm

(40:14):
doing laps outside. You're walking around this massive compound outside, right,
and I walk past this group of girls and I
hear barking like barking like dogs, and I look at
my friend and I was like, that was weird?

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Is that for you?

Speaker 3 (40:27):
And she goes, listen, I've been here for six months.
She goes, I've never been barked out. She goes, have
you done something wrong?

Speaker 2 (40:34):
And I laughed. I was like, we've obviously all done
something wrong, like we're all here, right, VALI valid right?
And she's like no, I mean are you a dog?

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Are you a giver? And I was like, what the
Like what are you talking about? And she goes, have
you given anyone up? Have you done something wrong? Said no,
like I'm here, I'm doing my time, Like what are
you talking about? Couldn't understand anyway cap happening. We'll walking around.
Other girls were barking or making just smart remarks, and

(41:04):
I was like, now I've had enough of this because
you're walking around with your blood pressure through the roof.
You're going you just don't know what's going to happen.
I'm looking behind my back if someone's gonna dog shot me.
You know, you have no idea anyway. So I walk
up to one of the girls that's kind of like
seen as like the head honcho in the jail, and
I said, what's up, like I don't understand what's going on.
I just got here. You know, girls are saying XYZ.

(41:27):
And she goes, oh, we hear that. You're a give up,
Like you're a dog. You gave up the syndicate. And
I laughed because I was like, are you joking? Like
I'm doing the most amount of time that any of
the girls are doing. That doesn't that doesn't make sense
in any way, shape or form. She's like, well, that's
just what we've heard, so we're going to act accordingly.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
That's scary. I'm the statement going.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
You can't argue with idiots, right, So I'm going, how
do I how do I handle this situation? And then
I've always been told like, if your old school jail,
you're old school criminals. Whatever you read statements, if that's
how you find out if someone's a dog. So I
was laughing because I was going, we can all, I said,
We'll go to the office. They can print out our
eighteen thousand page brief. We can all sit there and

(42:13):
sing Kumbaya and read like my brief because I've done
absolutely nothing wrong. And she's like, I don't want to
hear it. You're a dog. We know you're a dog.
It came from above. So I'm going, what is anyway cool?
Kept walking and I was like wrapping my head around
this for the rest of the afternoon, going something's going
to come from this. I don't know how to handle it.
And I'm crying to my friend, going have you ever

(42:36):
dealt with like this my first day?

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Angail?

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Like what, you know what? There's no TV show that
prepares you for me. It's like what do I do?
And she goes, look, all we can do is try
and talk some sense into this girl that was like
higher up or she said, you need to talk to
your cold fender because obviously it's come from that. Yeah,
And so tried to talk to my cole Fender wouldn't
have a bar of it. She was very much like

(43:01):
set in her ways that that was the case. She
was adamant that I was a dog. But mind you,
she'd also been there three months prior to me, so
she'd built friendships and.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
She made a name.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, She's got a crew around her.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
So she told all of them, and so I'm stressing
out at this point, but I was like, you know what,
I can't I have to show face, Like I can't
hide in my room.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
There's nothing I can do about it. So I'm still walking, walking, walking,
and then this random girl who never met walks up
to me and she goes, are you Doneyelle? I said yep.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
She goes, all right, you've got sixty seconds to put
yourself into protection or else we're going to put you there.
All right, this girl's twice my size. I'm going I
don't know how to handle this at the moment. And
then mind you, because it's a drama, girls drama, everyone
starts swarming, so there's like fifty people on her side.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
I had only made two friends.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
This day, so.

Speaker 3 (44:01):
Right, so I'm turning around and I'm going, oh god,
what do I do here? And both of my friends
are like, yeah, you're okay, we've got you. So I
turn into freaking Wolf of Wall Street at this point
because everyone's always told me you don't show your fear, like,
just stand up for yourself, stand your ground. So I
start banging on my chest. I'm like, I'm not going anywhere,

(44:21):
like I fucking leave it, right, and then this girl
starts counting sixty fifty nine fifty eight, and all of
her friends around her, for some reason, start singing.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
That what's it that rspc CT that's what do you know?
There is that song? Don't know what?

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (44:41):
That And then we are fairly don't know, just trying
to create that like weird intimidation. So she starts counting,
they start singing. I'm looking around for whoever I can,
being like, oh mind you, we're the only white girls
here in this situation. So start counting, start counting. Get
to one, I'm still screaming the same thing. I'm not

(45:03):
going anywhere. I was like, bring your friend out. I
said my issues with her, not with you, da da
da da wouldn't hear it. I think she got to
like four or three, someone jumps out from behind her
and just punches me in the mouth. So then as
that happens, I sort of swing to the left, see
the girls behind me. I go like this is if
to be like this is happening. And then it just

(45:25):
swarms like it turns into like a freakin' footy scrum.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
It was insane.

Speaker 3 (45:31):
And then this is mind you, this is right out
the front of all of the stuff, like the stuff office.
So I'm trying to scream as that as I can,
being like maybe it'll cause something they'll realize.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
That something's happening.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
It'll get broken up. I wasn't ready for this, right,
no way, anyway, get here in the mouth, turn back around,
start swinging, doing whatever I can. I get hit in
the back of the head.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
I fall.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
I was getting kicked in the ribs or whatever else.
And then I don't know if I passed out. I
don't know what happened. All I remember is it gets
broken up. I'm mid panic attack at this point, meaning
crying so hard there's snot in my mouth, like I'm horrified.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Oh your big girls, what's up with your Oh?

Speaker 2 (46:14):
The audacity? Right? How do I be scared? And I
just remember being handcuffed, hands beha my back.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
I'm sitting on the ground and this one officer lifts
me up by the handcuffs. He goes, you're safe, You're okay,
there's nothing wrong with you. We're moving you away now.
He goes, stop fucking crying, You're okay, be proud.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
So I put my head off, catching my snot in my.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
I put my head up and I walk out, and
I'm just sort of like nodding my head as if
to say like I'm okay, Like you didn't you didn't
you get me.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, anyway, I get moved.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
To segregated cells, and by then I let everything out.
I'm losing it because I'm going I don't know what
happens from here. You know that was minimum security, so
I either stay there or I go to protection. I'm
not going to protection, no fucking way. So I'm losing
it waiting for you know what's happened. Next, the governor
comes in. She sits down with me, and she goes, look,

(47:14):
I've done this for fifteen years.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
She said.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
I see this a lot. She goes, you know, pretty
girl like you comes in. Everyone has something to say
about it. She goes, you're practically the home and away
in this situation.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
You know drama. They love that.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
And she said, so what do you want to do.
I said, you're not putting me back out there because
I will die and I know that. I said, I'm
not looking over my shoulder for the rest of my sentence.
I said, but you're not sending me to protection either.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
There's no way.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
I've done nothing wrong. Why should I go there? I said,
so what are you going to do? And she goes, okay,
She goes, I'm going to send you to maximum I
go maximum security. I was like, what with the killers
and the girls that are doing you know, ten years plus.
I go, that sounds like a great idea. And she goes,
before you say anything, she goes, this is a good

(47:59):
thing you. She goes, there's only like thirty girls to
each unit. She said, it's drama free. Girls just want
to do their time. They don't give a shit. There's
no drama. There's you know, it's a lot less than
what you just experience. So she said, please trust me,
I'm going to send you there. And then from there
I got thrown in there with no shoes, no property, nothing,

(48:21):
And then from there it was that, honestly, was probably
the best time I.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Had right in the in the maximum maximum security. Well
what a story. But like, full credit for you for
standing your ground on it, and that that's a test.
Everyone that goes to prison talks about the tests. At
some stage it's going to come, and I'm.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Just glad it came earlier on.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Yeah, yeah, but it's a horrible thing to ye walk
around with that when you went to maximum security, did
you change your attitude or how did you survive in prison?
In there, like not just physically mentally, emotionally was what
was the secret?

Speaker 3 (48:59):
I think I just came to the conclusion when I
was in minimum, although it was such a short stay,
I really tried to blend in. I did whatever I
could to sort of lay low, because that's what everyone tells.
You don't get involved in the drug game, don't you know,
stick out too much.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Just try to do it.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
I've never been that great girl. I've never fit in,
whether I wanted to or not. I've just it's not
my personality, it's not my looks nor whatever. Just never
fit in. So recognized that didn't work. So I was like,
you know what, if I can't fit in, I'm going
to stand out. I'm going to stand up.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Fuck it. I started recognizing very early on that there
were all these.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
Inconsistencies in women's prisons. So I'm going to make sure
I'm the one that tries to work on them or
fix them. And that's what I did. Although I was
extremely limited in maximum security, they moved me several months
later to minimum up in Kempsey, and that's where I
really started to put the work in let's call.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
It and agitating for prisoner's rights and we should change
this and change that is that the type of thing
you're talking.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
About, absolutely like it was.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
So you became the loud voice in the yard.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
I became a delegate absolutely, so I was known at
the start, I was known as a scrim which is
basically like a screw criminal.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
So you basically work with the officers.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
But I thought, you know what, if you're that small
minded to put me on that and make me out
as if to be like I'm against all of you
and I'm the one that's trying to actually get things
running for you, guys here, fucking try me. You know,
I more or less one of things done for myself.
I recognized that I didn't have anything available to me.
I didn't have any education, self development program, nothing, nothing,

(50:49):
not even a gym facility. So I'm going, Okay, I
want all of these things for myself. But then I'm
looking behind me, I'm going none of these like, no
one has anything available. Women, men get a thing. We're
the minority. So I'm going, okay, how can I fix this,
not only like a personal level, how can I fix
with everyone else here?

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Just a couple of things. That was a clever strategy
in your mind to change. Okay, Well, I can't blend in. Well,
I'm going to stand out and just be who I am.
That's a yeah, it's a good strategy there because other
people might have just well, I've just got to keep
my head down even more, and that was not going
to work with end in tears again, not that you cry,

(51:32):
you just have. You just had a running nose when
they bashed you. Okay. So, and I know this is
something in our conversations before the podcast, very important to
you about women in prison and how we could make
it a better place. I acknowledge I was native to
it until it's been pointed out by quite a few
women that have come on the podcast that we don't

(51:53):
get the type of things that are available to men
in men's prisons. So talk us through that, the union
delegate there, How could it.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
Be improved in so many ways more than one, But
to be honest, just education and upskilling, like I remember, so,
don't get me wrong. There were courses available, but they
were very like mindset or just minimal, Like there were
booklets that we were all doing that was coloring in
like stuff that you'd give to a child. And I'm going,

(52:23):
you're literally receiving women you're receiving a captured audience that
are sober for the first time in their lives, that
are away from every destruction that they know, every responsibility
that they know. You've got them in their truest, most
like pure form possible.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
So why not do something with it? You know?

Speaker 3 (52:42):
And I met I became close with so many women
that were doing like six seven, eight years and whenever
the like previous to me coming they were being told
in terms of like tape courses or any form of
education that they were either not doing enough time to
feel a course.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Or they were doing too much time. What does that
even mean? Too much time? You know?

Speaker 3 (53:06):
So it aggravated me so much. And then sitting in
these programs as well, where everything was about mindset and
being mindful, like mindfulness, Like these women would have had
no idea about any of this stuff prior to incarcerations.
So it's like, why cant you just pick up at
a place of like, oh, let's learn how to meditate
when we should be learning. Okay, why should you learn

(53:27):
to meditate?

Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah, it's got to be more and more depth to it.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
Perhaps just deal with the initial trauma or like what
what is it that makes you tick or what is
it that has upset you that has made you commit
this crime? You know, no one, no one is passionate
enough about getting to the root cause of this is
why you did what you did.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Let's talk about.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
It, and you've got to sort that base out then
build on from there, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
Because otherwise you're just doing what my entire childhood does
and you slap in a band aid over it, going
here's a simple fix. But that's exact who what drugs
do of? Okay, we won't acknowledge what's happened to you.
We can admit that you're here because of a shit situation.
But oh, here's how you deal with it with a
couple breath work.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Or yeah, I do get it. There needs to be
more depth to it. Then you've got to get to
the root cause of the problem and then build from there.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, and I get it.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
While there needs to be some form of punishment level,
all it is is punishment in there. It's not rehabilitation
or rehabilitation means dealing with the root cause and then
moving forward.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
My view on the prisons have changed since I've been
out of the cops, because before I do the job,
get a case investigator, put the person before the court
and then move on to the next case, not really
thinking what happens here. But my eyes have been opened
on this podcast and people have met since I've left.
The cops very much say about the world's a better

(54:54):
place and this is not all airy fairy stuff. If
we want to reduce crime, stop people reoffending, So if
people go into jail, if we can create people to
come out better versions of themselves, everyone's a winner. And
I spoke to some victims of crime about that, like,
is this getting soft on prison? And the narrative is no,
it's getting smart. It's being smart and everyone, well not everyone.

(55:19):
A lot of people are going to Most people are
released from prison, so they're going to come back into society.
So don't we want to give them the tools that
they can function in society. And the other thing is
about punishment, And this is sort of changement review too,
And I'm not a softy, bleeding heart that the punishment
is being taken away from society. We don't have to

(55:39):
have them in breaking rocks and eating bread and water.
We should be trying to help these people so they
don't reoffend. Is that the sort of narrative viewer on
because it's something that I'm passionate about now. I honestly
believe that is a better way of fighting crime than
by the time I turned up after someone's dead and
we put handcuffs on someone and put them before the court.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
I completely agree with you.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
I honestly think sending a person to jail does not
reduce the rates of recidivism, doesn't reduce the rates of reoffending.
Like you're sending a person to a place where they're
basically put in Middle Earth. They're not being held accountable
for their actions at all because they don't speak about them.
There's you know, oh you've done this, okay, so we're
just going to leave you in a place for however

(56:22):
many months, years, whatever. But everything's done for them. So
I'm not saying it's not easy, but I'm saying it's
not hard either. Yeah, like you're in Middle Earth. There's
no accountability, there's no rehabilitation, there's nothing.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
And I think you've also acknowledged that there needs to
be that deterrent to the crime. But the deterrent is
going to prison. That was the thing that changed you.
You're saying, well, it's probably the best thing in hindsight
that happened to me. But if I understand what you're saying,
that's because the work that you've done on yourself. You
don't think the system itself is set up to Yeah,

(56:55):
you're one of the lucky ones or the ones, one
of the people that put work into yourself, But we
want to make it available for everyone. Is that what
you're saying?

Speaker 3 (57:03):
Absolutely, and no discreditation to corrective services and what they're
trying to do. I understand it comes down to a
resource level and things that they have available to them,
but more things do need to be more available because
you're leaving people to their own devices. Like, it's not
I changed because I made that decision that that's not

(57:23):
my life, that I'm not going to spend the rest
of my life in and out of jail.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Unfortunately, most women that go to jail do.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
I've literally lost friends, people that I thought were more
normal than normal than me. I ran into in jail,
and now I find out that they're still in jail
and have continuously gone back. Why Because that's what they
settle for, Because the system doesn't teach them that they're
worth anything more than that that they can have a

(57:50):
fresh start that they are capable of doing more.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Because they're not provided with anything.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
So okay, different story if they're upskilled, if they're if
there's some form of glistening hope that's provided to these women,
that's like, Okay, you haven't had that life before, it
doesn't mean you're not capable of living this one when
you get out.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
And it's kind of that. The support on the outside
is important too, and you were fortunately. I think you'd
be the first to admit that that you had a
loving family and the support the family round you, and
that must have helped so much.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
And that's what's driven the work that I do today
is that I acknowledged that I was probably the one
percent of female or even just inmate in general that
has that ongoing support on the outside that's willing to
do anything to see me succeed, you know. But I
recognized very early on that no one had that. And

(58:41):
while that is challenging, it also comes down like a
massive part of it is having that support for yourself.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Like if you I saw people.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
That had family support, that had friends support, that had
financial support, doesn't mean shit until you decide that you
want a better life or you decide that you're worth
more than that.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Nothing's going to change you.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
You ended up spending seventeen months. Yeah, okay, how that
feel when you got out.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Weird?

Speaker 3 (59:10):
I would imagine that would freaking did Like, so I
spent the last six months.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Okay, So Kempsey, which is where I spent the majority
of my sentence, was awesome. Ye, not a big compound.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
I think there was about eighty girls there, but that's
where I really got to flourish and work with officers
who actually gave a fuck about their jobs and actually
wanted to see better.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
I'm glad you acknowledged because I know the narrative visits
blue and the Green and yeah, never shall we meet
or show any connection. But there are some people deserve
to be criticized in coreactive services. But there's some great
people in there too, isn't he people that genuinely care? Oh?

Speaker 3 (59:50):
There were so many officers that made my time hard
or that you know, I couldn't imagine saying on the outside.
But there were also, in turns, so many that recognize
I recognized that they were there for the right reasons,
and you know, I would start to have these conversations
with them about you know, what their life is like

(01:00:12):
or why they want to help. And so many had brothers, sisters,
you know, people that had people in their lives that
had faced the system and that were either treated poorly
or didn't get the necessarily like the right outcome, so
they wanted to make a difference.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
You know. They all had an interesting backstory.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
And so why I loved that place so much is
because these were the offices that actually helped me to
get things going.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
So I managed to get programs running.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
I managed to get white cards for the girls or
fitness programs, you know, and I know that that's stuff
that would now still be in place, you know, upon
me leaving there, I'll never forget.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
It was the funniest thing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
So I was luckily I got accepted into a transitional center,
which is basically a place where you can work or
study so and wear normal clothes that aren't green. So
that was awesome. But upon me leaving, I got called
into the Governor's office and I was like did I
walked in and I was the only inmate in there,

(01:01:10):
and there was about five six officers. I'm going, oh
my gosh, right, it immediately as an inmate you're going
I've done something wrong with something bad is about to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
And I walked in and I was still trying to
be cocky. I was like, yeah, what's up. Everything okay?

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
And the governor actually sat me down and she said,
you're literally the success story. And she said, I just
want to thank you. She said, you've bridged the gap
between blue and green. She said, you've helped us realize
what we need to change or what we're capable of changing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
So she said, I want to thank you, and she
gave me a cake.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Wow, I know, and it was incredible because all I
could think about was imagine one of these inmates see
me walk out right now, they're going to think, oh
my god, biggest dog in the world. But at the
same time, I was like, you know what I'm or
I did or I'm doing what too many people have
been scared to do. Yeah. So I was so proud.
I was so proud in that moment. Yeah, so you
should be Everything made sense in that moment.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Yeah. Since you've been out, you've been working with Comfit,
and we've had Joe and a few others on the
cross paths with Comfit. Tell us what Comfit's about because
I think that's a great concept as well.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
It's amazing and I can't give enough credit to Joe
and what he's created for confit in itself, but also
every person with lived experience, and he's really made us
feel like anything's possible. So Comfit is basically and not
for profit. We offer mentoring services to young people that

(01:02:38):
are incarcerated. So originally it just started in juvenile centers
in New South Wales, but now I've extended to regional
so we run like digital hubs that kind of thing.
And this man's mind is insane, like he doesn't stop
coming up with new and fresh ideas of how we
can help the system and those that currently face the system.

(01:02:59):
So yeah, I work with Confident at the moment. I
basically I'm the female leader of the female juvenile Justice space.
So we going twice a week. I work with two
other awesome mentors, my closest friends, and Yeah, we go
in there, we run about a forty five minute workout
and then we speak. We do a little bit of

(01:03:21):
mentoring about all of the subjects that are really important
to us personally and kind of like what's helped us progress.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Yeah, and it's all ex prisoners, so all life experience.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Not necessarily all ex prisoners, majority of yes. But then
there's also others that have faced you know, ten plus
years of addiction, homelessness.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Okay, so you broad with Joe. When the first started,
it was people that serve time.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Yeah, yeah, look, we've I think we came well, Joe
came to find or I did, like during the hiring
process as well. But it's very hard to find a
female that has that prison experience that then wants to
kind of make a yeah, to make a career path
out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Yeah, yeah, but it must be rewarding work, Like, if
you're making the difference in someone's life.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
It's unbelievable to almost And it's a two way street,
right because for all of us mentors, it's so rewarding
to be able to make sense of all the shit
that we've been through, whether we've had family members in
prison or family members addicted to drugs and we've helped them,
or we started falling down that path in life, or

(01:04:29):
you know, we've been through it ourselves. To be able
to make sense of all the mess in our lives,
it's such a beautiful thing to do. That week in,
week out. And don't get me wrong, like these young
people test us like I don't know if you remember,
I'm sure you would have dealt with your fair share
of you know, fifteen sixteen year old people little shits. Yeah,
and while the respect element is there, oh my god,

(01:04:51):
they test us every week. But it's beautiful to see
the progression, to actually see there will be so many minimal,
minor moments, but we do have these such special moments
where we can see that we're impacting these young people's lives.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Yeah, well that's fantastic. You're also doing something else that
you're getting up and running called inside out. Tell us
about that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Better to be out than in that harp?

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Is that inside out?

Speaker 4 (01:05:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
But yees.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
So it was kind of a byproduct of confit, and
it definitely happened accidentally a little bit premeditated, but it's
kind of it's turned into something awesome. So from confit,
I just I recognized working within the juvenile centers that
there's such a niche or there's there's such a there's

(01:05:39):
such a missing link, and that's from young people being
supported inside to then being supported outside. While I can't
fault that there aren't supportive services outside.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
They haven't built the rapport.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
With these young people, which means that's like another few
weeks months that they need to spend that time building
that rapport, yeah, or that like just that trust element
in general, but also in the same term, like when
young people get out, they don't they don't want to
be mentored or spoken to or directed by someone that

(01:06:11):
has no similar experiences to them, that have textbook experience, right.
So I immediately saw that missing that missing link and thought
I can do something about this here. So yeah, I
just basically started speaking with a lot of people within
Department of Communities and Justice and said, I want to
start mentoring these young girls that I already know so

(01:06:32):
well when they're exiting prison, because the turnaround is so
so quick for young women.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
You've met them when they're on the inside, and then
you want to be involved when they get out.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Yeah, and I am so yeah. So I already work
with several young women at the moment. It's expanding, so
we're getting male mentors as well. But it's basically about
creating that pre and post interventions, So it doesn't even
necessarily need to be young people that are lead EVN incarceration.
It's more about people that are facing the justice system

(01:07:05):
in any way, shape or form, or have dealings with
and that have heard about us and they know that
where mentors with lived experience, We've we've done what they've
been through. We've we've come out of it in a
positive way, and now we've kind of used it to
the best of our abilities and you know, have created
a beautiful life because of it. They see that, they're
inspired by it, and they want to be they want

(01:07:26):
to work with us.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
Well, I see two benefits there. That you've got the
lived experience, so they can relate to what you've been
through and you can relate to what they're going through,
so that that's ticked. But then inspiring them that look,
no matter how bad your life goes, you can turn
it round. So there's benefits all around.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
And it's almost like an accountability thing, like we can say,
like we're pretty much the only people that can say
the shit that you've been through or the environments that
you've been in, it's not a fucking excuse.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Yeah, you can turn it around. It's up to you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
It's not you're You're not a byproduct of your environment,
or your shitty decisions or the shitty things that you've experienced.
You're a by product of your decisions.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
You do it like that, And I think a society
these days, we need to own our actions, don't we.
There's too many excuses why this happened or that happened.
But getting that message across, I think that's important for
kids when we're old, that we can look back and go, oh, well,
it's because of this and that. But as a kid,
if you've got excuses, you're going to grab them and

(01:08:27):
hang on to it, and that's it in the right direction.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
Were literally like we learn from these young people every
single day. Like kind of what kickstarted this for me
was we were doing sort of like a value a
session in confit based off of values, right, and so
we're getting these girls to speak affirmations out loud or
like speak on the ones that resonated with them. So
imagine we're had a list of like twenty twenty affirmations

(01:08:54):
and one of them was I'm not my past or
I'm not the bad things that have happened to me.
And this young girl, she would have only been like
fifteen or sixteen, she comes up to me and she goes,
I'm not okay with this one. I said, okay, but
let's talk about it, like woyw aren't you okay with it?
She goes, because it's not true. Said what do you mean?
And she goes, we should own what we've experienced, or

(01:09:16):
we should own the bad things that we've been through,
all the bad decisions that we've made that has made
who we are. It's what we do with it. Next,
I was like, oh my goodness, Like I was just
schooled by a fifteen years old, you know, and she's
helped build the foundations of this business and she doesn't
even know it. Like, we are our bad decisions. We
are the bad things that's happened to us. It's what

(01:09:37):
we decide to do with it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Next.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Wow, yeah, okay, Well let's point in in the right direction.
Do you look back now? And I think we started
off the podcast saying it was the arrest of the
best thing that's happened to you. You look at your
life now and what you've been through regrets or it
was a path that you had to take. What do
you think this was a journey you had to take
to become who you are now?

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
I mean, I wouldn't recommend jail like I'd give it
one and a half stars on tripid fise Far. I
feel like it was definitely something I personally had to
experience because it's stopped me in my tracks and sort
of pivoted me into a new direction. In terms of remorse,
I feel like my actions and the way I live
my life now definitely speak on that. It wasn't an

(01:10:22):
ideal situation what I went through, but it also wasn't
an ideal outcome of what I did with it, you know,
And so I feel like I'm kind of trying to
make up for that in some way, shape or form.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
I've said of seen.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
While I can acknowledge the bad things I went through,
like I see all of these young people go through,
because none of these young women that I meet in
jail have had an easy life, none of them. And
it's to the point where every week I'm shocked, like
some of these and I'm sure you can imagine some
of the stories that you hear. It just mind boggling.
But again, it doesn't give the excuse for shitty behavior.

(01:10:58):
It doesn't give the excuse to make bad and ugly
decisions that impact society. The impact families that you know,
impact yourself in negative ways. So I think in all
of my teachings and in all of basically in everything
that I do in my life, you know, I always
try to explain to everyone that it's not about what
you went through, it's about what you do with it.

(01:11:20):
So yeah, that shows that that's my remorse to some degree.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Okay, well, I think that's a nice message to leave with. Really,
there were so many I haven't even gone looked at.
I've been enthralled by your story in the way that
you've you've told the story, and like full credit to
like what you're doing now and the work that you're
doing now is so important. And I hope all the

(01:11:45):
best for the future, and I hope you keep up
the keep up the good work. And if we can
help you here on eye catch killers in any way,
put the message out, let the snap.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Thank you, I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Cheers one in their two and two died in six