Ep. 466: Direwolves and Ancient Hunting Dogs

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
You can't predict anything.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.
Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting
for ELP. First Light has performance apparel to support every
hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light
dot com. F I R S T L I T
E dot com fills back everybody. He's got a tall chair.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Ope, run camera here. I am now. Yanni's head is
in the way of the I'm here.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
That's all the matters. I'm gonna get to introductions in
a minute, but first I got up. So you know,
when you see airlines airports being like voted America's favorite airport,
all that's a lie. Like the best airport in the
world is the Ketchcan Airport. Ketch Can't Alaska small. You

(01:09):
can get all the food you want to eat. It's
got everything you need. The main thing that I liked
about it was that and Ronnie's seen this in the
confiscation display, the TSA confiscation display. Since since nine to
eleven they have had and they started doing that sort
of thing. They have had a brass knuckles dagger as

(01:33):
the centerpiece of the confiscation display, like a genuine like
a trench knife, brass knuckles pointed in a dagger. So
I always like to imagine the guy that was, like
the guy that was bringing that on.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
The plane, who do you imagine him?

Speaker 1 (01:51):
But he's like, oh, you know, one thing I should
probably grab is my brass dagger. So they had it
and then now it's gone. And I asked him, I said,
why is that gone? He says, well now, and then
they go and donate all of this stuff and they'll
donate it to the Boy Scouts. And I said, there's
no way that the Boy Scouts is gonna give out

(02:13):
or sell that brass knuckles dagger. So it's just missing. Now,
someone somewhere now holds that brass knuckles dagger and it's
not going to the boy Scouts, but they'll take it
and sell buckets of that stuff, all your leather man's.
And the other day my kid lost a bench made

(02:33):
folder and he introduced the idea to me over the phone.
He was flying with his mom and he tells me,
you know that knife that I don't use much anymore,
was his way of introing to me that it had
been confiscated by TSA. Anyhow, we're going through the catch
can line and Seth, we're coming from our fish shack.
And as we've talked about a bunch, Seth bought the

(02:56):
mold you fallen down fish shack next to our not
falling down moldy fish shack. And my little boy, my
eight year old, was over hanging out at seths place,
and they gave him a sling shot, the old school
kind of the wooden handle and surgical rubber. So we're
in we're leaving ketch can and he's all been out

(03:16):
of shape because he's worried about how he's got the
slingshot in his bag. And we're conversing with the TSA
guys about what exactly happened to the where the brass
knuckle dagger is, and then I'm not buying that. The
boy scouts are auctioning it off, and my kid says, listen,
I have this slingshot and the guy he gets it out,

(03:39):
and the guy holds it and stretches it and says,
you're okay, next time, put it in your bag we're
gonna let it fly. We fly from Ketchcan to Seattle,
and Seattle like, we got to go to Terminal D
and we're way far away and they're doing some construction.
So we get off the train and normally, it seems

(03:59):
to me, normally it doesn't matter what escalator you go up,
you wind up where you're trying to get to. But
I'm not paying any attention. I'm talking to my kids.
And we wind up at baggage claim, which means we
have to go back through security. And I'm telling my kids,
I don't understand what I did, but we gotta go
back to security. Two of them had already thrown out
their boarding passes. So anyhow we get we had we

(04:24):
get in line and here's the bagpack again, and my
kids like, man, I'm super worried about my slingshot. And
I watched all the bags go through and that bag
stops and somehow that TSA guy is so sharp. There's
no metal on this slingshot. It's a wooden handle and
surgical tubing. And he snatches that bag out and says,
is there a slingshot in his bag? And I said, yup.

(04:47):
It blocks my eight year old they said it's fine.
They said it's fine, and catch can not fine in
Seattle confiscated it. So now there's gonna be some boy
scout running around with my kids slingshot and at brand
knuckles dagger when I find them.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
TSA's website addresses this.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
It says slingshots carry on bags, no checked bags.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, the thing I was pointing out to him, and
when we were hashing this out is I was saying,
it's not like it's it's not a wrist rocket. It's
an old schooler. He spent two weeks shooting that slingshot
off the deck of art thing, and he was barely
clearing the water line.

Speaker 4 (05:28):
Slingshots, by TSA categorization are the same as yo. Yo's
not allowed in your carry on, but they are allowed
in check bags because.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
You're gonna garrett someone with a Yois Garrett? Mean? You
know you're watching mobster movies in Peter You're you're the
guy in the bag seat kills the guy in the
front seat by strangled him.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
I never heard it called garrett.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
That's a term. Yeah, I like that. How do you
not know that? I just don't.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
That's gonna help you in a Future Trivia episode.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
One more thing before we do our intros. This is
this is highly unlikely one of my absolute favorite bands
of all time, The Brian Jonestown Massacre is coming to
town October sec and already hold my tickets for me
and my wife. I'm thinking of you guys fish. There's
probably no way you guys fish, but if you fish
or anything, let me know. I will take you fishing

(06:23):
while you're in town. Joy today, Bye, Where do we start? Yannis?
Do them all up? Because I gotta look at some stuff.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Oh geez, I'm not gonna do a good job. I'm
not prepped up for this episode. That well, you're gonna
have to do the intros. Big boy, Okay. Brent Reeves
is here today.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, you just hear because you like dogs and you're
in town. It's just a happy coincidence. His wife, Alexis
is here. How long you guys been married? I think
twelve years?

Speaker 5 (06:50):
She thinks twelve years. I knew you was going to
ask this question. We're waiting on the lift at the
hotel and she came. She was getting ready, and she
walked into where I was sitting, and I said, now
we've married, how long.

Speaker 6 (07:02):
You know you asked me what year we were married?

Speaker 5 (07:04):
Okay, whatever it was. From now on, just direct all
the questions to Mike Atarney.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Uh, you're honest. You tell us, of course, Spencer Newhart,
Ronnie Bam many time guests, Ronnie Bam are living our
our expert on dogs that are living today and what
they have going on. And then we have a dire wolf,
an ancient dog expert. How do you like to classify yourself?

Speaker 6 (07:26):
I mean that sounds good.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Really, I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Sure, you know the first question I'm gonna ask you.
I don't want you to answer it yet, but I
want you to know. The first question I'm gonna ask you is,
And I want you to think about this because you
guys are gonna you're gonna nitpick this question. Who How
long ago did someone have the first pet dog? And
I'll define pet like a dog where the owner could
at any given time account for where that dog was.

(07:55):
I mean, I want you to mull that over. You
got a good one lined up?

Speaker 6 (08:00):
No?

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (08:01):
Really?

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Like it's not it's not well known to science.

Speaker 7 (08:04):
It's no, it's more in my category.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
No, it's not in category. You tell me you're not
gonna tell me the way that satisfies me. On what
continent and in what is today's country, and in what year?

Speaker 7 (08:16):
And they sent the Messegi's up to the Pharaohs.

Speaker 6 (08:18):
They put the big old bells on there the pharaohs.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Someone had a dog, pet a pet dog way before that.

Speaker 7 (08:24):
That's just one I could do.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
You agree right? Don't answer? Yeah, Steve.

Speaker 7 (08:29):
You also didn't mention her name.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Oh I'm sorry, Angela Perry. What are you tell me?
Who are you affiliated with?

Speaker 6 (08:38):
I'm a professor at Texas and University and I work
in commercial cultural resource management commercial archaeology as well, helping
people manage their heritage aka archaeology.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Oh, I got it. Do you interface with a frequent guest?
We have David Meltzer who's he's at a different school,
But you got interface ever on ancient old stuff.

Speaker 6 (09:01):
I mean Texas A and M and S m U
what we do?

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, but you guys, you guys hate each other.

Speaker 6 (09:07):
Neither one of us are from Texas, so.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
We don't care in the same journals.

Speaker 6 (09:13):
Oh yeah, we written papers together and I yeah, we
wrote a paper about dogs coming to the Americas with people.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Oh yeah, how long you've been at Texas, A.

Speaker 6 (09:22):
And M one year.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Where were we at before then?

Speaker 6 (09:26):
The United Kingdom UK? Doing what archaeology?

Speaker 1 (09:32):
Did you did you spend time at the Did you
spend time at the Ancient DNA place in Oxford?

Speaker 8 (09:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (09:39):
I work really closely with Gregor Larsen and the Ancient
DNA group Oxford.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
Do you work with Best Shapirol, she's been on the show.

Speaker 6 (09:46):
Yeah. Yeah, Beth and I Best on the dire Wolf
paper with us. We work together to try to get
DNA out of dire wolves. Took a long time.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
We did it such a little clique.

Speaker 6 (09:56):
Oh yeah, I got one club.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
I got one. You can't answer right now and it
won't detract from because we won't get into it too
much later. We had a big argument. Do you remember
the Spencer? No, we had a big argument about what
big argument. Spencer wasn't in it. Huh were there ever
dire wolves? Oh?

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, I was. I was the one who you know.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
I got such a bone to pick with you, dude?
Were there? But here? Was there ever dire wolves in Alaska?

Speaker 6 (10:31):
North of the wall? You mean, and there we go?

Speaker 1 (10:36):
What is that that that takes place in Alaska?

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Well?

Speaker 2 (10:41):
You know Arctic?

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Uh?

Speaker 6 (10:44):
Good question. We the real answer is we aren't sure.
So there are a couple possible dire wolves. We have
this issue though, that we have dire wolves, we have
gray wolves. We also have something called the Bringian wolf
now extinct wolf. All of them look very very similar morphologically,

(11:04):
bones look very similar. So we have people like me
zo archaeologists go through a lot of bones trying to
figure out how someone called this a x y Z.
I mean not that long ago. I was in the
Illinois State Museum where I work a lot, and digging
through some boxes. Read about a puppy burial. Digging, digging,
Let me find this puppy burial they found in the seventies.

(11:27):
Dig it out bobcat, real popcat.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
So you got to go digging around behind, you got
to go digging around behind round. I think they all
went to farms. It's like a puppy mass grave.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Was that the bobcat that they put like shell necks?

Speaker 6 (11:51):
I had a necklace on it and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I had a had a cool necklace. It had marine
and fresh water pearls on it, and then it had
they were carved like two bear canines, but they were
like deer long bones, but they've been carved to look
like bear canines, really strung up. We found it buried.

(12:12):
The photos from the excavation in the seventies like have
it laying out in a burial with the necklace clearly round.
So they thought like, oh, it must be a dog,
must be a puppy.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
They took so someone had taken deer long bones and
carved them to look like barri caneines.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yes, and you were wanted to recognize it.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Like fake the earliest fake diamond.

Speaker 6 (12:30):
I mean it's pretty I mean it's pretty cool. I
mean they pulled it out. Listen what we do for
zoo archaeology identifying you know, animal remains at archaeological sites.
This is not This is a fairly new kind of
category of archaeology. Before that, you take your bones that
you found, you sent to a biologist or zoologist or
something like that, or you just kind of rough it
in the field. I'm an archaeologist. I don't know. It

(12:50):
looks like it could be a dog. Probably dog. Put
it in a box, put it right, puppy burial on
the box. Put it away. In forty years, someone will
come along, Miss America can tell me what it is bobcatt? Yeah,
so it wasn't a mound in Illinois.

Speaker 7 (13:07):
Is it possible it was a domesticated bobcat?

Speaker 1 (13:10):
I mean yeah, I think so, Little pet, I don't know.

Speaker 6 (13:13):
You tell me, can you domesticate a bobcat?

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Well, no, you can't. You can domesticate a bobcat. A
you can't domesticate bobcat cat.

Speaker 6 (13:21):
You can tame yet a bobcat not domesticated with the
definition of domesticated.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well from.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Dollars in Alaska? Real quick?

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Wasn't there a declaration they wanted to hear the bone
I have to pick with you.

Speaker 4 (13:34):
Well a second, wasn't there a declaration made in twenty
twenty that there were diar wolves found in Asia? Like,
wouldn't that imply that they had to get there via Alaska?

Speaker 6 (13:44):
There was a declaration made.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Okay, but it's not not accepted, not yet.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
No, No, I mean the media jumps the gun. I'm sorry,
go ahead, the media jumps the gun. Someone will come
out with the paper to beat to say, hey, here's
the thing that like a thing that would be warrant exploration,
and they and then they come up with a headline
humans in New World way before previously thought, and then
you read it and you going, eh, I mean they

(14:11):
got like a date off a thing that probably isn't valid,
and they don't include all that in the headline.

Speaker 6 (14:19):
Yeah, we're in the world of like sexy archaeology, right, So, dogs, DNA,
peopling of the Americas, all these things get like hot
topic headlines.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
That's why you're here, you know, right exactly.

Speaker 6 (14:29):
That's why I'm here. Diar wolves in Alaska, who knows.
Dire wolves don't seem to like cold weather. They were
hanging out a lot in lower latitudes near water. They're
into Florida, they're into Texas, they're into southern California with
tirees like they're a tires exactly. They're snowbirds. They're not.

(14:49):
They don't seem to like the cold weather too much.
So been hard to believe. You might have had some
that like wandered aimlessly into somewhere north, but they're not
like really hanging out there. It's not their place, got it?

Speaker 1 (15:02):
So in Krin's words, Angela Perry, you might pronounce that correct, Yeah,
is well Krinn messed up. It'd be an archaeologist Krin.
Angela Perry is in Krin's words. Archaeologist, Oh, she corrected
it is an archaeologist and professor at Texas A and M.

Speaker 7 (15:22):
Her.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Area's expertise include environmental archaeology, got it, zoe archaeology, got it, parasitology.
First time ever heard that word? I got it, palaeo ecology,
got it. Hunter gathers domestication, adaptation and candids. Also, Ronnie

(15:43):
Bame hosts the Honting Dog podcast. Brent Reeves hosts This
Country Life on the met Eater Network and often hunts
with dogs. We're gonna come back to all that in
a minute. Another invitation.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah right, yeah, I'm an inspiring dog owner.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Really, this is a noe doubt and I'm gonna hit
you up on Instagram too. The Butcher of hoy Lake
a golfer, so Barons. Here's the headline from Baron's The
Butcher of hoy Lake stays patient as he hunts British
Open Crown. So there's a there's a golfer, real good

(16:23):
at golfing. I see that he uh in all his
interviews about golf, and he always talks about hunting. I
want to have so I'd like to have you come
on the podcast because I feel that golf is the
antithesis of hunting. Like you can't get if I looked
at a person golfing, a person sitting on a chair

(16:47):
reading in a person hunting, and I had to rate him,
like who's closest, honey, I would pick the person on
the chair because maybe they're reading about hunting. It's like
I would love to have Brian Harmon on guy. So
there's an invite, Please come on the show. We're gonna
I'm gonna, We're gonna dog on you about playing golf
and you can defend yourself. Just killed the biggest deer

(17:08):
of his life two years ago. Only hunts mature box
butcher's his own deer. Nice and won a golfing contest.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Real big golfing contest, like a big golfing tournament.

Speaker 4 (17:22):
There are four majors, Steve, he won the wrong one
because this is the only one held outside of the
United States. Thus, the European media didn't take a liking
to his very American hunting culture. Oh that's how they
kind came.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, but they're like the you know they're king, they're
king guys used to go hunting, for sure. The current
ones the one I think the one that app the
one that like, the one that abs gone to do America.
I think he used. Yeah, he used to hunt, and
I think the one that stayed put used to do it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
If you'd go to Brian's Instagram, you wouldn't even know
he was a golfer. He looks like a plain old hunter.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Oh really, God, please come on the show. Did he
come on the show? Krin, You're gonna reach out to him.

Speaker 8 (18:07):
You're going to reach out to him.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
I can't wait to have him on the show. Um,
it's what else is in here? And that's interesting? That's
not interesting? Now that it's not interesting, it's all interesting, Crin.
It's just I'm just trying to be cognizant of time,

(18:32):
and to be honesty, I didn't look at everything that
was interesting in the right frame of reference. Oh why
did you scratch out why astrology is stupid?

Speaker 8 (18:44):
Because I didn't think that.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
That was the most interesting thing.

Speaker 8 (18:47):
I didn't think that the explanation was.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Like, but that great explanation. So guy right saying he
knows that I hate astrology, and I think I've talked
about making my own twelve signs? Have I told you
about that? Like instead of looking up your sign, I'll
make up twelve. That'd be like your dad was a
drunk and beat you, so you look it up and

(19:10):
you'd be like, you'll have you'll have trust issues. You'll
have trust issues today, Like you're extraordinarily wealthy, but you
inherited all the money, and you can look it up
and be like, be an easy day today, but you
might feel existential crises. And then it'd be a much
more accurate way to find out what's going to happen
today than it would be to look at astrology. But

(19:34):
this guy was saying. This guy wrote in Why It's
All Wrong everyone thinks there's something other than they are,
and he explains the Earth currently revolves around the Sun
and spins on its axis with a twenty three point
five degree tilt that, in conjunction with Earth's rotation around
the Sun, gives us the seasons. Got it. This tilt
changes wobbles in a formal process called precession. This also

(19:57):
affects climate. This matters because thousands of years ago, when
astrological signs were defined, the night sky was positionally different
than it is now. So when someone says they're are
Aquarius or Virgo, or whatever. They're actually off by a month.
In that night sky they were referring to via zodias
vote via the zodiac sign, so it's not even accurate anyway.

(20:21):
So you follow me. So I always run around liking
to tell people that I'm Aquarius, I believe, but I'm not.
That was interesting, and you made up twelve of those. No, only,
I'm just still working on the concept. So I got

(20:41):
to find twelve that capture everybody, and then you'll be
able to look every morning and I'll tell you a
little bit about how the day is going to go. Perfect. Yeah,
you can help me with that. On it, I'm on it. Yeah,
because you can help me with the one about criminals
that you get it like you're a criminal, and then we
can look out and they'll give you some under the
sign of handcuffs. Oh we got to do signs too, Yeah,

(21:05):
like the handcuffs signed, the bar shadows from the window,
the money sign.

Speaker 5 (21:09):
The bar shadows from the window are your first clue
that you're dreaming?

Speaker 6 (21:14):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (21:15):
All right, getting on now, Krein, When do you imagine
that we plugged Roundie's project?

Speaker 8 (21:25):
I was gonna say a little bit later on.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
Okay, So We're gonna dig right in. Can we save
all that stuff? Though? Yeah, normally this had all happen
behind the scenes, but feel so cranky about his video
that we can't be behind the scenes anymore.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
Sausage is getting made.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
We're seeing it. Okay, all right, let's dig in. Now.
Have you thought about what my question?

Speaker 6 (21:45):
Which one?

Speaker 7 (21:48):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (21:49):
And this that's a question that's going to require you
to is a question that's going to require you to
define a bunch of points.

Speaker 6 (21:56):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
We lately. When I say lately, I mean in recent years,
you see headline after headline after headline as dogs become
more popular and more treat people treat dogs more like people.
People are infatuated with dogs. You see more and more
headlines sort of speculating on when the what is the

(22:19):
genesis of dog ownership, What is the genesis of the
pet dog? Who first domesticated the dog? When did they
domesticate the dog? How was the dog domesticated? So I'm
trying to put in a clean question that would let
you explore some of these definitions to say who had

(22:40):
the first dog, when and where?

Speaker 6 (22:46):
Generous of you set those questions up for us? Okay, Well,
good questions. I think that where we're at in people
who are into a dogs is probably that we are
we are moving away from just like Neanderthals. You probably

(23:06):
had like Meton and Dave talking about this and when
they were on before. Are we previously thought like, oh,
Neanderthals are these like kind of brutish people who can't
figure anything out. More learning that they're doing all these
amazing things. And I think around dogs, we've always had
this idea that probably it's only recently that we've been
doing like training and breeding and very specific stuff, and

(23:27):
up until this point, dogs have just been kind of
wandering in their own left to their own devices. That's
probably not the case. So some of the work we're
starting to do now is trying to figure out the
genetic lineages of working dogs. You know, when do people
really start breeding dogs to be working dogs, birding dogs

(23:48):
or hunting dogs or sled dogs or any of these
kinds of things.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Breedy meaning I'm going to take this one which is great, yeah,
put it with this one which is great, yeah, and
hopefully continue this this yeah, continue this like set of
behaviors or whatever.

Speaker 6 (24:03):
Right, So brings tricky, right, because it not only means
you have to put things together, but you have to
keep things apart. Right, So you have some dogs that
you're like, Nope, don't want them, not those aren't the
good ones. We don't want them breeding with the ones
who are good at this. So it takes some forethought,
takes some planning, take some ways to keep them apart
from each other. Right, So we did a pay for
a couple years ago now on some rock art we

(24:25):
found in Saudi Arabia showing people hunting with dogs at
several sites. These dogs had leashes on them, very clearly
le leashed dogs. Some of them were a couple dogs,
some of them like huge groups of dogs. Some of
the dogs were leashed, some of the dogs weren't leashed.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
And this is rock art.

Speaker 6 (24:43):
It's rock art, right. And so what's interesting as well,
if you're interested in hunting and how people are using dogs,
is that these are two different locations as well. So
you have one site that's kind of an oasis area
where you clearly are gonna have animals that are coming
up to drink and eat and they're gonna be trying
to ambush prey at a watering hole. And then you
have another location where you also have dog hunting rock art.

(25:06):
That's this kind of narrow escarpment valley where you're clearly
going to be using dogs to like chase hunt animals
into a location where then you're going to kill them.
And the depictions of how they're using dogs and these
two locations are very different.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Your hand gesture for kill very violent. She stabbed with
stabbed with both hands at once.

Speaker 6 (25:32):
This is what we're doing, right, So.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
She's the first criminal astrological.

Speaker 6 (25:39):
So what's interesting about that rocker is that, yeah, we
have leashes, so they're clearly controlling dogs.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
But what you're going to get to when the rock
art was made.

Speaker 6 (25:48):
Yes, so rock art hard to date, but pre Neolithic,
so before the arrival of agriculture, so probably nine to
ten thousand years ago, eight thousand years ago something.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
They were leashed dogs, leashed.

Speaker 6 (25:59):
Dogs, leash dogs. What's interesting about this that we notice
is that they're depicting in some places tons of like
twenty thirty forty dogs, groups of dogs with very specific
patterning and very specific like morphotypes of the dogs. So
it almost appears as if they're depicting individual dogs that
are like known to them, you know, they're not just
drawing dog, dog, dog that, Oh, this one has spots here,

(26:22):
this one has a pattern on its chest, here, this
one has this. So you start to get this impression
that very very early on, people are thinking of dogs
as like individuals, and that they're thinking of dogs as
members of the group, members of the hunting party, and
that they're it's not this idea of like just take
the dogs or blindly going out for a hunt, whatever

(26:44):
happens happens, right, that there's planning involved, that there's some
kind of method involved, and that the dogs are individuals
known to them and are in many ways probably equal
members of the hunting group.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
You read a lot into this.

Speaker 6 (27:01):
It was my PhD, So maybe I am reading a
lot into it. But I mean they're depicting dogs very
specifically right in some interesting ways. So I would say
probably by that time there's some effort to you know,
control dogs, train dogs, breed dogs, do some some kind
of like and does that lead to a pet? Is
that a pet?

Speaker 3 (27:21):
No?

Speaker 6 (27:22):
Dogs are interesting because they're kind of like a Swiss
army knife of tools, right, So my interest in dogs
is dogs is technology. Right, They're the first biotechnology. If
we think about all the things that we do with
animals these days in terms of technology, dogs are where
all of that started. Before dogs we dead to everything ourselves.
We had to figure out how to hunt, We had

(27:43):
to figure out how to track things. We had to
figure out how to do all this ourselves. Dogs are
the first time that we went, oh, wait a minute,
like something else can do this for us? Oh, yeah,
it's better than we are, right right. So you can
use a dog to hunt, You can use a dog
to pull a sled, but you can also use dog
as a bed warmer. You could also use a dog
as emergency food, for source alarm system sanitation around your

(28:09):
camp site. The dog does a lot of things.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Dog is technology, right, are you hip to the eye
to the theory? I'm sure you've heard it that dogs
perhaps self domesticated, meaning here you have these these roving
bands of hunters or these migratory bands of hunters, and
they leave a lot of waste, gut piles, carcasses, and

(28:39):
dogs are just kind of glued to them.

Speaker 6 (28:41):
Yeah right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
And over time like that as a possible explanation for
how it came to be, and it wasn't bad to
have them around. They would alert the you know you
to the presence of things, and maybe that helps explain
how it came to be that these two species, yeah,
develop some sort of symbiosis.

Speaker 6 (29:02):
I mean, I think this is probably the kind of
going theory at the moment. It used to be probably
we thought, oh, taking cute wolf pups or something like
that was probably how it happened. But this is unlikely.
It's hard for us to think through the process of
domestication with dogs. They're the first domesticated anything, first domesticated animal, plant, anything,

(29:25):
first concept of domestication is dogs. So prior to dog domestication,
we have no concept of what kind of a domestic sphere, plant,
or animal would look like. Right, So the idea that
people intentionally domesticate a dog without any concept of what

(29:45):
domestication would mean is unlikely.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
And I think that's that's a cool point. I never
thought about that, how they had no plants yet, No,
not so, Yeah, they were like, I'm gonna do with
this raccoon like we did with our dog.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
But it's a.

Speaker 6 (30:01):
Domino effect after that. Right after the first thing is domesticated,
then they're like, oh shit, look at all these things
out here. But horses, cows, goats, sheep, donkey. I mean,
then they just go for it right. Then after that,
it's just a slew of animals that are domesticated one
after the other, mostly livestock animals, but also domesticating a

(30:23):
dangerous carnivore like that. That's not intentional, right, Why are
you gonna go out take some time? Why are you
gonna go out and be like, you know what I'm
gonna I'm gonna domesticate. I don't know what domestication is,
but this is what we're gonna do. And you know what,
do you know where we're starting. We're not starting with
the juicy horses. We are starting with the wolf. This is,
you know, our dangerous predator competition. Yeah, what you're saying

(30:46):
is more likely, Yeah, it is. It's a it's a wolf.
We you know, you said you had Beth on the
show before. We cannot find have not found the wolf
population from which it comes. Not it's not our gray wolves.
It's a gray wolf ancestor. But whatever lineage dogs come
from that gray wolf ancestor is most likely not with

(31:09):
us anymore extinct, but very closely related to to our
modern gray wolves. They are wolves.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Though, well, how how many? How many I was gonna
say how many canines or do we have globally? But
that's not very helpful because then you get into like
kit foxes and right, how many if you look, so
there's an African wild dog, right and you have what's

(31:35):
that one in in Australia.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
Those are domesticated, right, but they can live without people?

Speaker 6 (31:45):
Yeah, so dingoes. So dingoes are domesticated dogs that arrive
with the first peoples in Australia and.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Then oh okay, so they arrived with people.

Speaker 6 (31:53):
They arrive and then they're like, we're out of here.
They head off to the outback or wherever in Australia.
So they are far dogs in many ways. But this
is a debate.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
But they're a wolf, yeah, I mean, I mean sorry,
they are Okay, they're originally from a wolf, right.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
Weirdly dingos are classifieds like vulnerable or threatened. Strikes me strange.

Speaker 6 (32:15):
It's an interesting debate in Australia right now about dingoes
that you know, some people would like to classify them
as a pest species. They're just a dog that's gone feral.
They're feral dogs. They're destroying everything. But others say, like,
maybe they are a dog, a domesticated dog, but they've
been in many ways rewilded. They've been alone for thousands
and thousands of years, and they effectively act as a

(32:37):
wild animal.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, because the ancestral Australians arrived there forty thousand.

Speaker 6 (32:43):
Years ago, right, they would have not arrived forty thousand
years ago, they would have been there I think five
thousand years the.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Dog, Yeah, the dog dogs later wave a later.

Speaker 6 (32:54):
Wave of people. So, but you know, five thousand years
kind of hanging out on their own. Also, the New
Guinea singing dog very closely related to dingoes in New Guinea,
totally totally isolated, domesticated dog, but has been isolated alone
for thousands and thousands of functions as a wild animal.
Is a domesticated dog functions as a wild animal?

Speaker 1 (33:16):
When you did anyone, I'm trying to go back real
deep here for a minute, and then I'm gonna jump
away into the future. When in the in the during
the African diaspora, was anybody packing dogs?

Speaker 6 (33:32):
No, no, no, no, we don't have So the paper
that I wrote, Dave Meltzer proposed that domestication of dogs
probably happened in Siberia around twenty three thousand years ago.
What we're always missing. When I'm like laying in bed
at night as an archaeologist thinking about dogs, what I

(33:54):
think about is like, why, right, we're hanging out with
wolves for tens of thousands of years the landscape hunting
alongside them, predators just like us, daylight hunters who form
packs to take down animals larger than ourselves. Very very similar.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
We're calling us daylight hunters.

Speaker 6 (34:13):
I mean, you could be a nighttime hunter if you want.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
But that's what Yeah, Okay, I just got I didn't
know if you're talking about you're talking about so humans
being like daylight pack.

Speaker 6 (34:21):
Hunters, very similar to wolves. Right, we have a similar
social structure, we take care of each other as young.
We're very similar to wolves and lots of ways, and
we would have seen and known wolves on the landscape
for tens of thousands of years prior to domestication. So
the question is why, now? What what drives domestication to occur?
So going back to your idea of was it an

(34:44):
accident that they domesticate themselves around that time, and lots
of parts of the world we had pretty crap climate
stuff happening right the LGN, the last Glacial Maximum, not
a nice time to hang out in a lot of
parts of Eurasia. So we have populations of hunter gatherers
wore essentially kind of isolated in Siberia, so they kind
of get stuck there. There's a refugeia of some decent

(35:07):
kind of climate and locations up there, but moving between
that and the rest of your Asia would have been
kind of nasty time, so they kind of isolate up there.
I don't know how long they've been up there, for
thousands of years, though two to nine thousand years they're
hanging up.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Can I point out that I'm quite envious of those people.
They got to hunt the woodly rhinoceros right exactly. So
they're up there, which is just if you're going to
do something cool, that's about the epitome of coolness.

Speaker 6 (35:34):
So they're up there with these populations of animals who
are also up there in this kind of refugium, but
also wolves. Wolves are kind of isolated up there with
them as well, so they become less mobile in this
kind of smaller area than they're used to, And something
like that has to be the driver. There has to
be some reason that dogs become domesticated. And probably, as

(35:58):
you were saying, they're hunting, they're leaving scraps around, and
some group of wolves somewhere decided, you know what, today's
the day. I'm not gonna risk everything and go out
and hunt this deer or wool urine or something like
that on my own. Why would I do that when
it's much easier.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Scraps, right, competitors too, wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
They, right?

Speaker 6 (36:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's much easy.

Speaker 7 (36:24):
One of them scavenged off the other and figured it out. Yeah, right.

Speaker 6 (36:27):
And so you know people in Alaska right now, lots
of parts of the world, Russia deal with us all
the time, right, So there are dangerous predators who hang out.
Bears are around, lots of village sce. People don't run
them off anymore. They just learn to live alongside. They're
going through the trash. They're not really bothering anyone. They're
just doing their thing. Humans like, as long as they

(36:50):
don't bother us, we won't bother them. This kind of
like symbiotic relationship of they eat our trash and don't
bother us, that's fine. We could see that happening with
wolves where you know, you butcher some kind of mammoth
or something like that. You take what you want, You
go back to your campsite. You don't really care if
the wolves are scavenging off the leftovers, as long as
they don't bother you, and they're kind of at an
arms distance. Why bother them, right? And so what ends

(37:13):
up happening is that, you know, wolves have culture. Wolves
learn to hunt from their parents and other pac members.
And when you have generations of wolves that have no
longer no longer hunt, right, they're scavengers. Now, then what
do they teach their young to be scavengers? And then
they're young or scavengers And then eventually you have generations
of wolves have never hunted. They only know scavenging, so

(37:37):
going back to a hunting lifestyle is not as easy
for them, and they only know a scavenging lifestyle. And
eventually you kind of narrow that population down to this
population of wolves that are scavengers who are comfortable living
alongside humans. And then that's just like righte for becoming
a dog.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
How long would something like that take?

Speaker 6 (37:57):
I mean, would only take a few generations, right to
get wolves that have never hunted before?

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah? Not Yeah, well, how did it backfill? See, I
thought the answer is gonna be different because you're talking
about these these pre agriculture cave art or rock art.
Is it is it? Petro? What the hell? Witch is witch?

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Petro?

Speaker 1 (38:20):
And pictol which pitographs or petroglyphs pictographs Aret, that's a
chiseling noise. Yeah, and this is petroglyphs. So it backfilled.
It went in reverse, meaning humans were in Saudi Arabia

(38:42):
long before they were in Siberia. And if the technology
did I just say, yeah, humans were in Saudi Arabia
long before they were in Siberia. So if the technology
emerged in Siberia, it's somehow also yeah, yeah, so like

(39:02):
it transferred. Yeah, not just the direction that people were
that some people were.

Speaker 6 (39:08):
Flowing, it would have dispersed. So if we're right about Siberia,
you have dogs essentially being domesticated there on their own accord.
And then once the lgm's kind of nasty climatic thing
simmers down and we get into the Holo scene, then
people disperse. So the ancestors of Native Americans they make
their way across the Beringian land Bridge into the Americas.

(39:31):
But also that population disperses back down into the rest
of Eurasia and Arabia and everywhere else across the world.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
When those first Americans, whenever I talk about BRINGI hoards
like to point this out, is that people no one
and maybe you'll disagree, no one in Siberia woke up
one day and said, fred, let's go to America. Okay.

(40:04):
They hadn't been there, they didn't know what was there.
And I feel that the generations of generations of humans
would have lived and died in what is now the
Bearing Sea. Yep, right, you were not. You were moving along,
and you know some day you go like, let's go

(40:25):
check the next valley. Oh that's pretty sweet. All the
stuff there has like no idea what we are, and
you just kind of walk up and kill it. And
the next day you're like, let's go over to the
next valley, no concept of that you're heading anywhere. And
it was a huge land.

Speaker 4 (40:39):
Mass six hundred miles wide, which is as Montana.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, so be that that you would have people who
were born, You would have had people born and died
on this chunk of ground that's underwater now in the
shallow sea. So if you have a domestication event in Siberia.
By the time people get to what is now Alaska, Yep,

(41:07):
are their dogs still are? Are Are there dogs still
making love to the new wolves they're finding in Alaska? Like?
How are you not constantly updating what the hell of
dog is by every every like genotype of every genotype
of this almost like pan.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Global wolf you are.

Speaker 6 (41:29):
So we like to say domestication is process, not an event,
because domestication also starts, stops, has dead ends, maybe started
up in other places and then petered out. No, it's
not working. Taming these wolves not working out for us,
and then that that kind of lineage of tamed wolves

(41:54):
semi possibly domesticated dogs kind of you know Peter's off,
these are the ones that worked.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
So when you let's let's say you get to the
point where we'll just do there's two So there's two
things I'd like you to get into to help try
to explain. Eventually you have across north So so you
have the first Americans come in and they very quickly

(42:22):
just explode southward. And then later you have this wave
of people who were possibly more Japanese illusion and they
exploited like marine resources and had composite toolkits for harvesting
whales and shit, and they come across the north of
Alaska very different, like very different people had dogs. And

(42:48):
then so you get to where Stephenson in the early
nineteen hundreds is going in like Coronation golf, and he's
finding people with dogs who have had not had interactions
with Europeans. A century earlier, you have Lewis and Clark
come onto the Great Plains and they're finding nomadic bison

(43:12):
hunters with huge packs of dogs which they're using eating.
These things look nothing alike. Yep, how is all that happening?
I mean, because they're not buying dogs from they're not
buying dogs from Europe.

Speaker 6 (43:31):
No where dogs go, people go, So anywhere people went
in America's dogs are going right. And eventually, just like humans,
these groups of dogs breed only with each other, and
eventually you get independent lineages of dogs that are very different.
You know, a dog that you're using as a water
dog ends up looking very different than a dog you're

(43:51):
using to hunt bison, and looks very different than a
dog that you're using to hunt white tail deer and
bore looks very different from a dog that's a sled
dog that's pulling you across the Canadian Arctic, and so
these things can happen fairly rapidly. You're just saying, like,
you know, you want a dog that is good at
being in the water and has a better coat, and
blah blah blah. You just just make it. Just kick

(44:14):
out the ones you don't want out of that line,
and you know you get one that has a really
good coat that you like, you breed that one, and eventually,
you know, you get a dog that does what you
want it to do, is.

Speaker 7 (44:26):
Bringing for characteristics, right, characteristics in traits.

Speaker 6 (44:31):
Right, Yeah, so you know up north they need dogs
that are pulling sleds and have a certain physiology and
have certain types of foot pads that are good for
pulling and certain types of oxygen intake at higher altitudes,
and that's what they breed for. And like the first
i mean the first population of dogs, that initial population

(44:54):
of wolves, if they kind of self domesticated, right, that
population naturally gets cold down, right, Say one of those
wolves decides like, you know what, I'm gonna wander into
that village today and I'm gonna take a little snap.
But a toddler that wolf, it is not in that
population for very long, right, humans make sure like nope, cold,
all right, that guy and his bad attitude are gone

(45:15):
no longer in that population. And it's the same thing
for dogs across the early Americas. You know, this dog sucks,
it doesn't hunt, it's not doing what we want done.
Out of the population, right, has nice fur though, could
you use that?

Speaker 7 (45:33):
Right?

Speaker 6 (45:33):
So, so you have these dogs being cold and cold
and cold and cold. We're working on a paper now,
cold cold cold, cold, cold cold.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Pin which you know Danny. We're just up at the
fish shack and Danny was telling me he saw or
someone was selling firewood in Alaska. I can't he what
part where he was, but someone was selling firewood and
kindling were they just cut to it. It's spelled k
I n l I n kim, which says killing. They're
just like, I'm like, you know what, I'm not getting

(46:04):
the d involved anymore. D's out Kinlin. That's South Alaska.
G Yeah, he says it's k I N l I N.
He knew exactly what they were talking about. Saved on
paint on the sign anyways, go ahead, yeah, so.

Speaker 6 (46:21):
Cold cold cold, Yeah, I mean, you know.

Speaker 7 (46:25):
I mean, I honestly think somebody should explain cold because
I bet you a lot of people don't really know.

Speaker 6 (46:30):
Go ahead, are you volunteering, Well, tell us you're the archaeologist.

Speaker 7 (46:34):
But I know more about culling. Probably it's the process
of taking something that's not desirable and killing it as
it and usually in its infant stage. You don't usually
wait till they're find out if they're two years old
and they're practical to use. That process has been done
with domestic dogs for years because you could see if

(46:54):
you're looking for a standard size or a standard coat,
and you'll see puppy differences and be like, oh wow,
that one's tiny.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
You know that just because it's a resource thing, right,
It's like.

Speaker 7 (47:06):
We're only going to have the feet eight of them
if everything works out right. And that one that's really big.
That reminds me of the dog that the neighbor had
from twenty years ago, the one that was killing things.
Big ones out. So they try to keep it to
a standard basically, And I'm sure they did that back
in the day. You know, they they could tell. And
the neat thing about those people are they would have

(47:29):
kept those dogs around to observe them as they're growing up,
because dogs are like kids, but they grow up in
twelve months kind of. So you might see that behavior
of a really aggressive one it's six months and they
would probably still call it there because they still want
the milder temperament dog, you know. They so yeah, but
I just didn't I know you were saying that, and
I wanted people to like, we're talking about yeah, selective breeding.

(47:55):
It's a selective killing.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 7 (48:08):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
In France's Apartment's the Oregon Trail. So there's a historian
named France's Apartment and he wrote one of the He
wrote what would become one of the early definitive histories
of the French and Indian War. He had, you know,
what was the disease that you send everybody out west?
The doctors has head like go to an arid climate,

(48:28):
go to an arid climate, TV something like that. So
he went out and I think it was an eighteen
thirty four France's Apartment, went out onto the Great Plains
and then later wrote a book called The Oregon Trail.
They think that he was he was probably so he

(48:50):
spent a bunch of time with you, Aglala Sue was
probably in Crazy Horses camp when Crazy Horse was thirteen
years old. He one day goes into I think he
goes into a trading post and Laramie, wy what's now Laramie, Wyoming.
I think he was in Laramie and he's invited to
dinner in a Sioue Famili's So in Aglala Sue family's tepee,

(49:14):
he's invited to dinner. All their puppies are in the teepee. Okay,
so you've hit a level of familiarity and care where
the female dog is nursing her puppies inside.

Speaker 7 (49:32):
Like the first house dog.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Yeah, which, like so it paints a picture, right, I
mean you have it's like it's it's not a huge space,
but you're giving that space as litter of puppies, which
demonstrates this level of familiarity and care. But here's Francis Parton.
He's a he's a guest. A woman goes over sorts
through that little collection of puppies that is inside the teepee,

(49:56):
thumps one in the head and cooks it for him.
So it's like this real you know what I mean.
It's just it's it's like this real collision of two.
It's a collision of two attitudes about dogs. It's really interesting. Right, Well,
they're inside, right, We're gonna take care of them and
make sure that whatever nothing kills all the puppies. But
but I mean, come on, dog is good. Yeah, I

(50:20):
mean yeah, So like these, you know, you get these
glimpses into these very complicated these these like complicated contradictory relationships. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (50:29):
I mean, some of the sites that I was working
on for my when I was writing my dissertation were
super interesting because you have clearly hunting camps together, sites
where you have elaborate burials of dogs which must be
hunting dogs, are bearing them with hunting implements and red

(50:51):
deer antlers and very elaborate points and things like that,
and with covered with red ochre and really in these
like very elaborate burials, it looks just like a human burial.
By the next door, you got a bunch of butcher
dogs that they've clearly been eating in the trash pile.

Speaker 7 (51:06):
Right.

Speaker 6 (51:07):
So there you clearly have these like camp, same camp,
same camp. So you have dogs that are you know,
and we probably have that a version of that, we're
not butchering them and throwing them a trash pile. But
we have versions of this right where we have you know,
if you're a hunter and you have hunting dogs, and
you've got that like prized hunting dogs, and then you

(51:28):
got the kind of you know, someone was telling me
in a bar yesterday at Ted's we had this German
shorthaird pointer like great hopes for it scared scared of guns.
Now it's a couch potato, right, it's not. But then
they have another dog that's just like an amazing hunting dog.
So you know, you get this these levels also of

(51:49):
you know where that dog falls in the pack, and
we think, you know, as an archaeologist, I think about
humans as another animal on the landscape. We're just another
animal the landscape, and a dog is our greatest technology.
If you're a hunter gather and you're using dogs for hunting,
and in many ways, if you're a hunter gather, you know,

(52:13):
ten thousand years ago, a dog is much more valuable
to you than another human hunter. Right, So when I
was hunting boar in Japan, we would enter these dense,
dense forests. No way we're going to track a boar,
but the dogs.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Right when you're talking about you. Yeah, okay, so tell
me about this now.

Speaker 6 (52:33):
So part of my PhD where I was in Japan
working with hunters and hunters in Japan trying to see
how they use their dogs to bar there in some
of these really really dense forests. You know, you can't
see two feet in front of you because the forests
are so dense, And the rise of hunting dogs in
our kind of archaeological pass is most likely tied to

(52:56):
the beginning of the Holocene period somewhere between ten and
twelve thousand years ago, when we kind of move out
of this time of having more open forests and polar
tundras and the deciduous forests start coming into the northern latitudes,
and forests start getting really really dense, and the animals
move from these huge megafauna you know, mammoth and masdons

(53:18):
that we see out on an open plane, to like
super fast white tailed deer and boor who a moving
through a dark dense forest?

Speaker 7 (53:25):
Right, got it?

Speaker 6 (53:26):
We're humans. We're not usually tracking a white tailed deer
through a dark dense forest.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Can I throw something into that?

Speaker 6 (53:33):
You tell me?

Speaker 1 (53:34):
I think that you're also starting to see that they've
had that your people are living in encountering animals that
have had more experience with humans, right, Yeah, I mean
I've brought this up before, but there was a time
when there was the first person. I don't know who
he was, I'd love to meet him. There was the

(53:56):
first person that ever saw a rattlesnake, and that person
had lived hundreds of generations in the absence of venomous
snakes yep. Or there was the first man. There was
the first person that ever walked up to a mastadon,

(54:16):
and the masdon maybe just stood there. Yeah, because aland
doesn't seem that big. What's it doing? Right? And then
after a while you get where stuff has kind of
a has a different attitude, and you might be looking
for new ways of dealing with these new attitudes. Ye,
but we're anywhere they catch a smell on the wind
and they're gone, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 (54:34):
But we're also dealing with that.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
Right.

Speaker 6 (54:36):
So, generations before you were Macedon hunters on open planes.
Every technology you built was for that. Everything you've taught
generations after you is for how you go hunt a
macedon on an open plane. Now you have dense forests
coming in quickly, pray species are changing. They're becoming these

(54:57):
kind of mezso prey species, smaller, medium sized prices. Is
very very quick and moving through a dense forest. That
takes a different type of hunting, different types of tools,
different types of technology. Dogs are really good at that.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
I had no idea they hunted boars with dogs in Japan. Yeah,
so what happened when you went? How did it go?

Speaker 6 (55:20):
I mean the dogs? The dogs do most of it, right, Yeah,
I mean so it was interesting. I love debates about
about hunting with dogs, modern hunting with dogs, because when
I talk to hunters who don't use dogs, not for
like birding or something like that, but hunting deer, boar
or something like that, they say, there's no sport to

(55:41):
it hunting with dogs. Sheeting, right, it's too easy. It's
too easy. If your hunter gather ten thousand years ago.
It's exactly what you want you want it to be.
It's not a sport subsistence hunting, you know.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
But even out, I mean, this is a subject for
a different thing.

Speaker 7 (55:57):
I would love.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
I would love the debate with one of these people.
How it's not easy, because the thing I always like
to bring out to people is if you could measure
hunting knowledge and like bits the way you might measure
information in your computer in a drive to successfully use dogs,

(56:18):
meaning selecting, breeding, caring for training, someone who can effectively
use a dog to get a big game animal. It
holds more bits of holds vastly more bits of information
in their head than is required to shoot a deer
coming into an egg field. It's just like you might

(56:41):
find one to be more fun or less fun. But
don't get into me this idea that it's easier or
cheating to pull that off, because that's not easy to
pull off. That takes lifetimes of dedication. You might like,
you might have other problems with it, but the easy
thing come on. So it's is not true.

Speaker 6 (56:58):
I debate this a lot with a colleague of mine,
Jeremy Coster. He's a professor at Cincinnati and he works
with indigenous mosquito on my Younga people hunting in Nicaragua
and Jeremy Coster mosquito in Myyungna. So in Nicaragua where
they're they're horticulturalists, but they still the primary meat is

(57:20):
coming from subsistence hunting in these like neotropical forests, pretty
pretty dense kind of tropical forests, and so we debate
a lot about they use hunting dogs there. Their dogs
are not really trained. It's they come out one they
might get killed by a jaguar. Some ways, that's good
for you because it's killing your dog is not killing you,

(57:41):
so that's all right. But a lot of them get
lost to jaguars or snake bites. A lot of them
are just clearly not up for it. But then you
get some small population of dogs who are really good
at it and then teach other dogs. But there he
he does a lot of calculations of tracking, cost benefit
analyzes of using dogs and return rates using dogs versus

(58:05):
not using dogs. The issue there is he's got a
dense forest and he's got probably twenty or thirty animals
in that forest that that dog could go after. And
you don't know when your dog goes off and it's
barking and it's gone, if it's going after a forest
rat or a brocket deer. And you have to debate

(58:25):
whether the time lost in tracking down your dog for
four hours if it caught a rat, is worth it,
right or does it have a deer And you don't
know right, so you can lose a lot of time
and an environment like that. If you're a hunter gather
in a forest in northern US or Germany or the UK,

(58:52):
your idea of what your dog is going after is
a much smaller breadth of praise species. Right, So you
could have thirty things, of which twenty five you don't
care about, or you could have a force in which
if your dog's going after something, it's probably something you
want to kill an eat.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Right, John, he's got it narrow down to one thing.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
Well, I'm trying to truest to chase mountain lions and bobcats, raccoons.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
All three things. Never mind, he's got narrowed down three things.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
But there has been a lot of narrowing down, you know,
a lot of teaching him what not to chase.

Speaker 6 (59:33):
Right, And how much time does that take? Kind of
effort does it take.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
We're not done. We're three years in roughly. Yeah, lots
of time.

Speaker 6 (59:44):
This is the debate of like, as an ancient hunter gatherer,
spending three years training a dog. Probably not. It's probably
a game of nope, nope, nope, Oh, this one's all right,
all right.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
He gets the red ocre the red, Yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:00:05):
So you know, this is the this is the bait
we have. Do we breed the good one with another
good one from the village next door, produce some good pups.
Then you go from there. That litter produces eight pups.
Of those eight pups, six of them duds, two of them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
All right, I need to I want to just really
quickly get back to this Japanese thing. How many how
many bores did you guys get?

Speaker 6 (01:00:29):
We got? Well we went out for weeks, so.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Oh so you're really putting some time into it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:00:35):
Yeah, we're tracking. We had GPS callers on the dogs
trying to track, like where they went, how long it
took them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
They have chase dogs and catch dogs.

Speaker 6 (01:00:43):
The chase dogs were the catch dogs there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
So they track it and hold it down.

Speaker 6 (01:00:48):
Yeah, track and hold. They have the full vests and everything.
Though those boar aren't messing around.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
So then they come in and kill with a knife.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:00:55):
I mean so basically this is what we did. We
get to the edge of the forest, right, super dense,
and I'm thinking, how we look for the tree that
has you know, the rubbing on it, Like, okay, there
there's somewhere. Dogs sniffs the tree looks at us. All right,
we'll go he's got the scent. There they go, tracking
them on GPS callers, where are they going? You can

(01:01:18):
hear them, they're they're barking to each other, tracking each
other where they're going. You can you can hear them
going up the mountain. You can kind of hear where
where the barks are coming. And you can hear when
they get the scent that they're close, because then they're barking.
Really you know, it's increasing. And then you can tell
when they got them. You know they're doing that that.

Speaker 8 (01:01:41):
Go go.

Speaker 6 (01:01:41):
And then you're just like, all right, here's where the
humans step in and we do the real hard work,
right we so we track them down and then kill them. Right,
But this is an interest.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
So did you take a real like into that or
was just work for you?

Speaker 6 (01:01:55):
I mean, it's it's fun, right, It's interesting to see
the process. I'm an oargist. I see the dead animals
on the ground, right, I need to know how does
this work in reality? How you know? What are I
try to think through? How what are the places that
things go wrong? Where does the path split in a hunt?
Where a choice could go this way or this way?

(01:02:17):
You know, a lot of people in archaeology talk about
hunter choice, hunter prey choice, and what we decide to do,
what we decided not to do. But when I've been
hunting with dogs, we're not the ones who decide what
animal you go after. We're the ones to decide if
you kill it or not, but we're not the ones
deciding on animal you go after. So when we talk
about you know, humans in the past ten thousand years

(01:02:39):
ago always killed males or females, or ones this size
or ones over here. A lot of that if you're
using a dog to hunt, was decided by the dog.
We decide whether you kill it or not, but prey
choice is largely decided by what animal the dog goes after.
And so you know, we they're lily going after females

(01:03:02):
with young, regularly going after males that are running or
on their own, sick, old, injured. You know, these are
the animals that that dogs are going after, over and
over and over.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Yeah, that's a good point. You might find tune it.
You might find tune it on species, but it's pretty
hard to find tune it on. Go get me a big.

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
Male, Yeah, go get the big one.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
Have you ever found any crossover of ancient cultures that
used falcons and dogs.

Speaker 6 (01:03:35):
Yeah, so I worked in Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan, they're using
birds of prey, dogs and horses. It's a three prong approach, right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
And how old do you think that? Like three prong approach.

Speaker 6 (01:03:49):
Is pretty old? I mean horse domestication. Trying to track
down right now, exactly when horse domestication happened in Central
Asia somewhere most likely, but yeah, thousands and thousands of
years ago. So it was interesting in Kazakhstan. Problem for
me is an archaeologist to use his ancient DNA.

Speaker 9 (01:04:10):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:04:10):
When I was in Kazakhstan, I would talk to the
local people who are still hunting with falcons and horses
and dogs. And I was in a tiny, tiny little
museum in the middle of nowhere, and I saw this
picture of hunters and they had their horses, they had
their falcons, and they had their dogs, and they had
two wolf pups. So Kazakhstan has one of the largest
wolf populations in the world. You don't really think about

(01:04:33):
Kazakhstan being a place where tons of wolves. There they
had these two live wolf pups and I was asking
them the guy that we.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Were with, and then the painting, the wolf puffs looked
different than the dogs.

Speaker 6 (01:04:42):
Yeah, they're clearly wolf. I mean it's a photo. It
was a it was a black white photo. So they
had these two live wolf pups that they'd tracked. They'd
been on horses with their falcons and their dogs and
they'd tracked these two wolf puffs and they caught them live, right,
And so I said to them what are they why?

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Why?

Speaker 6 (01:04:59):
At first, well, why are they going after wolves? And
what are they going to do with them live? I said, Oh,
they'll breed them to their dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Oh, put a little extra pap in them.

Speaker 6 (01:05:08):
And I was like, I was like, what are they
tell me more? And I said, well, you breed your
dogs with wolves to fight off the wolves. You know,
I'm an archaeologist though, and I'm thinking, you know, we
study ancient DNA try to figure out, you know, the
genetics of dogs, and I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Thinking, what night, Yeah, like the fag that is still happening.

Speaker 6 (01:05:31):
Right, No, it's still happening. It's happening all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
They're creating all kinds of noise.

Speaker 6 (01:05:35):
Oh yeah, they're introducing like local wolf genetics into dogs
and this happens. Ever, happens all over the place. Right.
So there's a dog breed call a sar loose that
genetically looks like an ancient dog. I love talking about
people about ancient breeds, ancient dogs and why they look ancient.
And this looks like an ancient dog, but it's not.

(01:05:56):
It's a recent breed about fifty years old. That they
just took a wolf in a zoo in Germany and
bred it with German shepherds something like that and created
this sar loose. Probably you look.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
At it, and you're looking at I think even genetically.

Speaker 6 (01:06:15):
Genetically because it's genetics. Are a wolf wolf genetics?

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Right? And so it turned up that bone and a
hole in the ground, It would have threw you off.

Speaker 6 (01:06:23):
Bad news, badness, right, So you might get a dog
that looks ancient. Oh man, this is ancient.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
When you say it looks ancient, you're talking about what
you see in the DNA.

Speaker 6 (01:06:31):
Like genetically, but also morphologically, I mean, because a dog
that has recent ancestry of a wolf is gonna morphologically
look probably a lot like a wolf. But you know,
we we think what happened with dogs and the reason
why no one can sort out your question of like why, when, how,
where when did this all happen? It's probably because dogs,

(01:06:52):
if they're domesticated in somewhere like Siberia, they're coming back down.
They're coming back down with human populations into Eurasia via
different right. And of course as they're coming down, they're
interbreeding with Asian wolves and European wolves and wolves in Germany,
wolves everywhere, right, And so then they end up looking
all of them end up looking ancient, but with independent

(01:07:17):
local wolf populations being kind of blended in there. And
so for us genetically and morphologically, it's a nightmare because
they all look old because they've got these local wolf
populations being bred into them, these local ancient, local, ancient, local, modern, local,
historic like wolves and dogs. If you leave a dog out,

(01:07:38):
they're gonna hang out with wolves, right, they'll either be
killed or they'll hang out with wolves. And I mean,
canids love to interbreed, love to interbreed with each other.
We had some from a site in Illinois that's one
of the used to be the oldest dogs in the Americas,
and we had two sites right next to each other,
overlapped in time. But the dogs look very different. Morphologed.

(01:08:00):
We had these one dogs that the one site had
these really robust dogs, and then the site twenty kilometers
away the dogs are much more like grass aisles, so
kind of thinner, more thin bone dogs. And we were like,
this is the same time period. They're twenty kilometers away
from each other. That's strange that they would have that
much variation. We did the genetics of the kind of

(01:08:22):
grass style thin dogs and they were Koi dogs, but
they were buried. They were buried. They're in burials with
grave goods, but they had very recent coyote ancestry.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
And they were some fashion esteemed or cherished because they
had a proper burial.

Speaker 6 (01:08:40):
They had proper burials, are probably being used for hunting.
But like, I don't know much about what a koid
how you live with the koi dog, but maybe you
guys you know about koy dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
I kid yesterday and he was telling me all about
what you need to do if you want to have
a pet coyote.

Speaker 6 (01:08:53):
Okay, right, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
So, which presumably he learned on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
Catch a Crayfish.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
Tell me like all the ins and outs of having
pet kyotes, And I was just kind of have listened
to what he was telling.

Speaker 7 (01:09:09):
Me, I gotta throw something in so Yanna. You might
be familiar with the name Delmar Smith with dog training,
maybe Brent. He's he's from Oklahoma, probably one of the
most famous dog trainers horse person that you've ever met.
And he had kyote pups around the farm when he
was a kid. And I did an interview with him,
I don't know, six seven years ago, and he just

(01:09:31):
looks at me. He said, wrong, I can take kyle
pup and teach him what your pointer knows. It's on audio.
So I didn't know about that they could breathe with them,
but I do know that they could be trained up
pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:09:46):
There you go.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Before we move on, though, I it's one more question
about Japan. What were those dogs like like will be
to be similar to breedwise, so they were all.

Speaker 6 (01:09:55):
Over the place. So we had some hardcore guys that
had shiba you been you like local Japanese hunting dogs
dog yaba in you So they got the little curly tail,
they have a fox like kind of face dog. So
Japan's interesting because they got all sorts of really interesting

(01:10:18):
specialized dogs.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Can I I have a trivia question planned for Angela
coming up.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
I got a bone to pick with you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Okay, say too much?

Speaker 4 (01:10:28):
Can she talk about this when we get on the
trivia show.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
She's already given the answer to the bone.

Speaker 4 (01:10:35):
Not not yet. But I'm worried. I'm worried she's approaching
that territory. So I think we should just leave it
until trivia.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Should I pick my bone with yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:10:44):
Now or later, Tavia, if it's a trivia bone.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
Trivia bone, okay. Oh you know what I did that? Uh,
when we had that tent, say, on the parking lot,
I met this family. Memerel's gonna tell you the story.
I sent you that picture, that little mountain man trophy,
and I said, I'll tell you later. I never told you.
So there's this family and they do They've made their

(01:11:11):
own trivia tournament out of your trivia show.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
I'm worried about what you may have done, but carry on.

Speaker 7 (01:11:17):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
I ran up in the office and game one of
the trivia game.

Speaker 4 (01:11:20):
Yeah, a prototype that was not ready for the market.
But that's okay. Now one's just out there in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
I said, listen, I'm gonna give this to you. Don't
show anybody, especially anybody that works here. Uh huh oh, no,
like five people came up to me. You gave that
guy that trivia?

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
I'd heard from five people.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
I told him very clearly, put in your bag. You
don't show anybody.

Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
Yes, and I had heard from five people that some
family was walking around on the board game. I was like, well,
that's not possible.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
I show he went on to show everybody. I said
that the show perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
I'll pick my bone and she will talk about her Japanese.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
He's gonna continue his line. Question yep.

Speaker 6 (01:11:56):
To answer your question, there are some local dogs and
some European like bloodhound type dogs. So that's a Mexico.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
That's all she can say for now.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Oh, because it's right, because the bone, the.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
She may just give it away to everyone in the room.
It would be at your advantage to just wait about
an hour.

Speaker 8 (01:12:15):
Got it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
There's a Scottish woman that has an album called Bones.
You have thrown me in blood I have spilled, which
we should work into the show. Okay, here here can
we switch the wolves from it? But I know, so
you're ancient dog, but that means categorically that you're interested
in wolves. What is the term trying to get how

(01:12:39):
to set this up when we now look at the
wolf landscape. Okay, we talked about what we have, the
Mexican gray wolf, right, and then that wolf ends at
what highway?

Speaker 7 (01:12:50):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
There's a highway that it ends at. It'd be like
if a mule deer crosses, if a meal deer crosses
the I five quarter or he becomes a Columbia blacktail
in certain places, so he can go back and forth
all day long. And there's if Ossiola turkey walks across
a certain road, he becomes an eastern turkey. Right, And

(01:13:10):
we have these little divisions, but this one actually has
teeth because from a legal perspective in terms of how
it's manageding like experimental species and danger species. There's a line,
there's a highway. There was an eye forty. I don't know.
There's there's a highway at which a Mexican gray wolf
ceases to be a Mexican gray wolf across to some highway.

(01:13:33):
It's been pointed out to me, and I can't remember
the word they use. That all this is nonsense that
you had like that, Yes, there were wolves in Mexico,
but as you road north, you never left wolfland. It's
just you would gradually see different morphological types. Meaning in

(01:13:57):
the desert southwest there's wolves running around slightly different college
generally smaller. You'd go north and they might get bigger
and grayer, and you'd go north yet and they get
bigger still. And then you go north yet and they
might get smaller and wider, and then you roll into
you'd like roll into Siberia and it's like a little
bit different yet, but you never you never crossed the

(01:14:20):
line at which they're not interacting and what's the word
I'm looking for.

Speaker 6 (01:14:24):
I don't know where you're looking for.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
But they were a continuous blank. Yeah, they were.

Speaker 7 (01:14:31):
Like you think, like a monoculture of a Yeah, it
was like that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
All you could later go in and make like these
distinctions and these arbitrary lines at which they changed, but
they were just all there, all interacting, all breeding, and
you would just see different demonstrations different like pheno.

Speaker 6 (01:14:50):
Tisenotypes or morphotypes. So you would not have ever gone
anywhere and not seen wolves. If you're an ancient hunter gather,
there would have been wolves everywhere, I think, and all
these wolves can interbreed with each other. They're all canis
sloopis of some of some description they had. Uh yeah, yeah,

(01:15:13):
I mean, well, if you took a wolf from North
America and you moved it to Eurasia, maybe they're all
Canus loopists. They could interbreed, and the wolves that are
here now came from You know, when you say why
people were living and dying on Burringia, that's true. Why
did they make it that way? Well you have animals,
tons of animals moving into the Americas, So you have

(01:15:34):
a concert migration of animals moving through Bringian land Bridge.
So probably people are following animals. You know, people didn't
just wake up one day and say like go east, right,
They're probably following herds of animals, both predators and prey
that are moving you know, their way into there, including wolves.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Well you know who's brand new that I didn't know.

Speaker 6 (01:15:56):
This, elk Yeah, yeah, yeah, ELK.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
Like there could have been p people. I'm not sure
what the latest is on this, but there could have
been people that showed up here before elk.

Speaker 6 (01:16:05):
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so we think that wolves
didn't actually make it here. Wolves and ky didn't actually
make it here until fairly recently as well. So probably
wolves came over in the same time humans were making
their way over there, which is why dire wolves.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
Will get to dire So that was a wolf that
was here before Canis lupus.

Speaker 6 (01:16:25):
So dire wolves were probably the ancestor of dire wolves.
Probably came into the Americas over a million years ago.
Probably dire wolves evolved in the Americas somewhere, and then
we're here by themselves, the only wolf hanging out for
a very long time until gray wolves and dogs eventually

(01:16:50):
show up on the scene. But by then they they
were so removed from each other evolutionarily, they would not
have been able to so we have.

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):
So they weren't bred into they weren't bred into the
gray wolf. No, they probably just blinked out. You think
they blinked out because of being displaced by wolves and dogs,
or you think they blinked out as part of the
megafoneal extinctions, you know that took off the mammoths and macedons.

Speaker 6 (01:17:14):
It's probably a combination of both. The I mean, there
are a lot of mega predators that were in the
America's they're no longer here. You know, we had American lion,
American cheetah, short face bear, all the shimtar cats like
all sorts of predators that are no longer here because
their prey went. Yeah, tons of weird praise species that

(01:17:36):
you know, most people don't. There are camels in America,
original horses, real horses. Before the arrival of European horses,
we had horses here at camels, giant ground sloths, right Aglyptodon,
which was like a ginormous armadillo. We had all sorts
of things that were here, and when those things went
with the climate, the predators that relied on them, you know,

(01:17:57):
went as well. It didn't help, you know, humans would
have seen dire wolves. By the time we got here,
there would have still been dire wolves. We would have
interacted with dire wolves. We would have seen them, but
probably didn't help that we arrive with our dogs hunting everything.

Speaker 7 (01:18:13):
How big was a dire wolf like a dog species
we'd recognize.

Speaker 6 (01:18:18):
So a dire wolf isn't as big as we you know, game.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Style Game of Thrones to make some three four feet tall.

Speaker 6 (01:18:27):
No, I wish. No, the average direwolf is probably about
the size of like a big Arctic timberwolf.

Speaker 7 (01:18:33):
Okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
Yeah, you know, you don't know this. I was gonna say,
did you know that me and my wife's first date
was at LaBrea tarpis.

Speaker 6 (01:18:39):
But you had I did not know that I'm here.

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
Well, no, hear me out. So I have a very
nice I don't mean a brag school display at my
house built into my wall. My first date with my wife,
who went to Librea tar pits, and they have the
wall of dire wolf skulls, and I said at that time, somedow,

(01:19:08):
I'll build one of those into my house. You did
it and then married her and built the school. Stick
to my word. Score.

Speaker 4 (01:19:17):
Yeah, can I tack onto this conversation? This this tattoo
is the that is the cattle brand of the original
owners of the Lebra guitar pit when I think it
was called the Leroca Ranch because I also went there
and I was so moved by like the dire wolf thing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
That was like I want something associated with that.

Speaker 6 (01:19:36):
Yeah, yeah, Bray Tarpet's very cool. I mean they're very cool.
I worked there several times, and one time when I
was working there, I had this office that kind of
looked out over the tar pits and I just watched.
I was like one after the other animals, just adding
adding to the.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
Birds.

Speaker 6 (01:19:55):
Birds mostly just landing and then just.

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
Ah, you're seriously.

Speaker 6 (01:20:01):
Oh yeah, the tar pets are still taking victims.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
But you know when it's crazy, that is, and I
don't know how many hundred, one hundred and seventy five
dire wolves have come out of there, well all that stuff,
you think of it, it just be like a death like
smell like death. But they're saying that as long as
those pits have been going, I think it was that
if you had an incident, meaning a baby, a baby
mask mammoth gets stuck in the mud, a dire wolf

(01:20:28):
goes out to scavenge on it, he gets stuck in
the mud. A golden eagle lands on there, he gets
stuck in the mud. As long as that are in
the tar, as long as that happens every forty years,
yeah you're fine. Yeah, Like that would account for the
the bazillions of dead things collected in that tar. And
they either still fishing.

Speaker 6 (01:20:49):
Never learn they never learned, It just kept going. I
would just watch and yeah, we'll just land, and I thought.

Speaker 4 (01:20:56):
Humans must have learned. Now, there's been one human ever
found there. It was like an eighteen to twenty year
old woman.

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
But she was thrown in she had a axe wound
or yeah, I didn't know that she was thrown in
there as a cover up.

Speaker 6 (01:21:09):
Whoa, yeah, there's a dog in there, a.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Thousand year old crime.

Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
She had an axe. Yeah, she had been had a
blown into the head with an axe and somebody said,
I don't know, I mean to stick her.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:21:17):
Humans love to throw like bog bodies. I just love
to throw a dead body into into one of these things, bogs,
tar pits.

Speaker 4 (01:21:25):
Swampsh'd be addicting throwing things in there.

Speaker 6 (01:21:29):
What happens?

Speaker 7 (01:21:30):
Wow?

Speaker 6 (01:21:30):
Yeah, still taking victims darts?

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:21:34):
Old it?

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Did you just write that current eye forty?

Speaker 3 (01:21:36):
I did?

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
I was right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
I was waiting to get away.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
You should have celebrated my rightness.

Speaker 4 (01:21:43):
I was you know I was going to get there.
I forty in Arizona, New Mexico is the northern boundary
of the Mexican gray Wolves.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
I got two more dire wolf questions. All right, have
you guys found where anybody was any butchered remains of
dire wolves?

Speaker 6 (01:21:59):
We're not sure that's the answer. So we we don't
have a lot of sights where we have overlap between
dire wolves and humans. The few sites that we have
are in New Mexico and Arizona where we have butchery
sites where humans have butchered a mammoth and we also
have remains of dire wolves got it, but no obvious interaction.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):
Like no tools made from dire wolf.

Speaker 6 (01:22:24):
Bones or no, no, nothing very specific like that. We
think probably humans caught the tail end. Around twelve to
thirteen thousand years ago is the time when a lot
of those mega predators and the Americas start to go
short face bear, saybergoth, cats, dire wolves, they all start
to go out. So there may have been like a

(01:22:44):
kind of hold out group in the Southwest that kind
of held on for some period of time and then
kind of petered out. I think for our paper we
got one of the kind of latest dates of dire
wolves and it was like twelve seven hundred years ago,
and that's probably towards the very end of the dire
wolf population.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
And do you ever see are you ever running running
genetic lines on anything living today or anything from okay,
how to put this, So dire wolves twelve thousand years
ago they were gone? Yeah, okay, do you ever see

(01:23:26):
in anything living today or anything that died in the
last ten thousand years? Where you're like, oh, somehow some
dire wolves snuck in there. No it so it legit went,
It's gone.

Speaker 6 (01:23:37):
So we checked everything we think as possible dogs, coyotes,
gray wolves, nothing has any kind of dire wolf in it,
and dire wolves, and so dire wolves and gray wolves
have a common ancestor about five point eight million years ago,
but after that they diverged. So what was interesting was
that we always assumed that dire wolves were just gray wolves,

(01:24:01):
like they look nearly identical in their morphology, and you know,
the people tarpets are the experts and dire wolves and
we just always they just look so similar. We figured
that they're like a sister species or just very closely related.
And so when we did, when we finally got DNA
out of them, the reason it took so long was
because the stuff at Libreas, where most of dire wolves

(01:24:23):
are coming from, covered in tar, not a great place
to find DNA. Tar destroys the DNA. So yeah, so
can't can't get DNA out of those.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
So just can't, can't can't really any of that stuff.

Speaker 6 (01:24:34):
No, the tar just like destroys it. So I went
on this like bonkers road trip where I just drove
everywhere I could think of that might have dire wolf
bones and collected.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
I'm just knocked on the door.

Speaker 6 (01:24:47):
A bunch of dire wolf samples, like Idaho Museum, Natural Street. Hey,
you guys have dire wal I just went everywhere and
tried to get as many as I could, and we
managed to get five out of hundreds that we that
we tested that we actually so we have two from
American Falls, from Idaho, and then one from Ohio, one

(01:25:09):
from Texas, I think, and another one from somewhere back east.
So five rand ones, not Librea or anywhere famous that
we know dire wolves from. And when we tested those,
there's just no relationship at all. We found that they
are more closely reated to like jackals than they are
great wolves or dogs or kyotes or anything like that.

(01:25:30):
They diverged so long ago, so their ancestor that was
related to like a jackal, African jackal ancestor diverged, came
over from Africa across Eurasia and into the Americas, right
and that split happened five point eight million years ago,
and so their relationship to wolves is not very close

(01:25:51):
to the relationship. They just look like Wolves. It's like
convergent evolution. They do the same things, they live in
the same place, they eat the same thing. They kind
of so they look the same.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
But yeah, uh, are you Fami with the Grateful Dead.

Speaker 6 (01:26:07):
I've become familiar with a lot of things that are
tangential to dire Wolves.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
You know where I'm going.

Speaker 3 (01:26:13):
You know where I'm going with I do.

Speaker 6 (01:26:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:15):
They have one good album, yeah, Reckoning.

Speaker 2 (01:26:17):
Yeah that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
You think I don't care what Doug Darren plays in
his car. They got one good album, Reckoning, which includes
the song dire Wolf.

Speaker 6 (01:26:26):
Yes, yeah, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
Should license that film. We could play it during the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
Yeah, sounds good.

Speaker 6 (01:26:33):
When I talk about diar Wolves, a lot of things
come up. Game of Thrones obviously.

Speaker 1 (01:26:37):
Yeah, traffic and that kind of stuff, any kind I
don't like any kind of new stuff that people know about,
because then it's just I'm always afraid my brain will
become like their brain.

Speaker 6 (01:26:47):
We got to work backwards. Then you got Game of Thrones,
and then you got D and D Dungeon Chaggins anyone.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
Yeah, I'll talk about that. Guys in high school, we're
into that dire Wolves.

Speaker 6 (01:26:56):
There's like a Direwolf car dire wolves are part of that,
and then you know grief. Those are kind of the
touchstones of of diar Wals. Most people, though a lot
of people had no idea dire wolf was a real animal.
I thought it was a completely mythological like creature that
was just made up for Game of Thrones or made
up for dungeons and dragons, and I don't know it's

(01:27:16):
real that it was a real animal. M Yeah, did
you know? Did you all know that dire wolf was
a real animal?

Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
Yeah, dude from my first day?

Speaker 7 (01:27:27):
Probably not in high school, I didn't, but yeah's.

Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
Who's the ass on your necklace? What's that my kid?
What's your kid's name?

Speaker 7 (01:27:35):
Scot Oh, that's from the movie. Yeah, yeah, Mockingbird, Yellow Mockingbird.

Speaker 1 (01:27:41):
It's a novel.

Speaker 7 (01:27:46):
How many books do you knowed me to ready if
I quote something?

Speaker 6 (01:27:51):
In high school? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
You named? Are you familiar with the the somewhat misogynistic
theory that Truman Capoti wrote that book?

Speaker 6 (01:27:59):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
So yeah, I learned that in the movie Capoti.

Speaker 7 (01:28:08):
That in there.

Speaker 5 (01:28:08):
Yeah, supposedly the Dale character in the in the novel.

Speaker 1 (01:28:18):
Does have a big pre publication record, and then it
kind of dropped off the Face of the Earth, and
when they line out what her influences, it's like Courtney
Love all that all that great music by whole was
when she was hanging out with Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumkins.
That's another misogynistic music theory. And then so it's like

(01:28:38):
that that wasn't actually her, it was Billy Corgan. And
then that that Truman Capodi wrote to Kill a Mockingbird.
I didn't know that and published it under her name
because then she never I guess she didn't like write
anything after. I'm not telling you a theory that I think.
I'm just telling you about the theory. It's like when
I tell jokes you're not supposed to tell. Now I
tell people about the joke. I don't tell the joke.
I'm like, you should be aware there's a joke that

(01:29:00):
goals like this.

Speaker 6 (01:29:02):
Should I rename my daughter now?

Speaker 1 (01:29:04):
No? No, it's after the movie.

Speaker 6 (01:29:11):
It's a movie too. It's a movie too.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
Spencer, what do you what are you Dealey dallying around here?
You got another question?

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
I was just making notes.

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
We could hit on this. I feel like the rotten
meat fermentation topics are interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
You guys take.

Speaker 3 (01:29:30):
Well it was just in the notes about the consumption
of rotten meat. You want to speak to that?

Speaker 6 (01:29:37):
Do you want to speak to that?

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
I can't speak if you could. Yeah, was it was
it the wolves or the humans that were doing that?

Speaker 6 (01:29:49):
So I think the idea behind this, this is still
a kind of new idea that humans. You know, wolves
do this. They cash somewhere, they kill something, they eat
their fill, and then they'll they'll cash the meat in
water or you know, on her snow or something like that,

(01:30:10):
and come back to it, by which point it's you know,
sometimes putrid, rotten, but fine, but fine for them. Right,
So the ideas did Neanderthals or modern humans kind of
pick up on this idea of if you put meat
into an anaerobic environment, if you put it in the water,

(01:30:30):
in a frozen link or something like that, and come
back for it next season when you're low on meat,
you know, is this something that you could kind of
get away with. So I have a good friend Melanie,
she worked at the body farm in Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Where they do all that that stuff for. Yeah, what's
the word it combines like insects and.

Speaker 6 (01:30:53):
Crime, Yeah, forensic entomology, Yeah, yeah, studying like when does
a blowfly hat on a dead body or something like that. Yeah,
so she was working there. She's a professor at Purdue now,
but we were working on this idea of like we're
trying to figure out why nitrogen values.

Speaker 1 (01:31:12):
That'd be if I was a producer, I'd be taking
notes right now about getting someone from the body farm
on the show. Okay, ye forensic and to my forensic
and just someone who like puts a person out and
then a while later goes and checks on them.

Speaker 6 (01:31:28):
Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting something.

Speaker 1 (01:31:30):
Can you horin up?

Speaker 7 (01:31:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:31:32):
Sure, I mean there are a couple of them. There's
one in Texas. There are a couple kind of around
where they're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
We want the person who's best.

Speaker 6 (01:31:38):
Body farm. The one at Tennessee is kind of the
the most well known one and.

Speaker 3 (01:31:45):
Absolutely krin you can donate your body there for science and.

Speaker 6 (01:31:51):
You can there's kind of consider.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):
No cure.

Speaker 6 (01:31:57):
Yeah. Yeah, wasn't there a whole thing about uh one
of the.

Speaker 8 (01:32:04):
Lab the heads of the lab at was it.

Speaker 6 (01:32:06):
Harvard or another university of a cadaver lab where they
were actually selling off body parts.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
No, I would mind picking one up experiment, Yeah, be
like see that you know what that is right in
my freezer? All right? Sorry, yeah, yeah, you go ahead
with your line of questions.

Speaker 3 (01:32:31):
I don't think I add a question that we're listening to.
Angela explained about the body.

Speaker 6 (01:32:37):
I mean, last I heard, they were they were full
of and that they had their they were at max
capacity of you know, the number of people that they
could take on the head signed up. So many people
want to donate, donate their bodies, and there's a pretty
you know, an extensive process of paperwork that you need
to do before, you know, because part of the work

(01:32:59):
that they're doing at that lab is you know, being
able to track things I have to do with knowing
you know, kind of what your diet is and your
ages and things like that. So they need some background
information on who you are and kind of what kind
of lifestyle you lived or things like that. So you know,
my friend was clipping cadaver fingernails to do some some

(01:33:23):
work on on cadaver finger things like that. I mean,
it's really it's it's really interesting work. Definitely be a
good episode.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):
Are you familiar? I think this might have got debunked,
but there was a site where they had they the
way they interpreted this site at the time, was it
someone had they had killed some mammoths, put those mammoths
in a pond, and then to the intestines and packed
them full of gravel and wove the gravel over. Wove

(01:34:06):
the gravel filled in testines as weights. Oh okay, over
the carcasses to hold them underwater. So the intestine rotted away.
But you had this skeleton remains of this meat overlaid
with these cylinders of gravel, And that's what they suspected
that they had made.

Speaker 6 (01:34:26):
Like in ans, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. I
think we think of ancient peoples as kind of like slow. No, right, No,
of course not. They would have figured out all sorts
of stuff like this, right, they would have figured out pretty.

Speaker 1 (01:34:42):
Cool to think of that as like a new timey idea.
What packing testines full of gravel and laying them over
some meat. Yeah, I mean, if I got friends that
none of us proposed that we do.

Speaker 6 (01:34:53):
That, try it. I mean, next time you guys go
out hunting, take take a carcass that has something left
on it and put it, put it in a you know,
a cold body of water, cover it with some gravelly
intestines and see how long? Yeah, see how long it takes.

Speaker 1 (01:35:10):
We've done that just to keep flies where it's not.
It's kind of nasty the way it looks after a while.
But between getting full of fly eggs and hot or
putting it in the creek, we've opted to just stick
in the creek.

Speaker 6 (01:35:22):
How long did you leave it for?

Speaker 1 (01:35:23):
Days? A couple days?

Speaker 6 (01:35:24):
What was it like?

Speaker 1 (01:35:25):
When it just looks like something that drowned. It gets
bled out real bad, so it gets white. But I
don't think if you PEPSI challenged it, I don't think
you'd be able to taste the difference, to be honest
with you, it just looks. It just looks off putting.

Speaker 6 (01:35:36):
How long do you think you could leave it in
the water.

Speaker 1 (01:35:40):
Well, if you put it in, if you put it
in the creek and that creek was running like a
glacial stream where that thing's running forty to fifty degrees,
I bet you put them there for weeks and it'd
still be edible.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Try it, Yeah, as long as something else wasn't starting
to eat on it. Yeah, but just cold glacial water
in there, yeah, I guess colder, it is probably less
bacteria and whatnot in there to eat it or actually.

Speaker 1 (01:36:03):
In the case where we did it, that stuff was
a glacier earlier that day, so.

Speaker 6 (01:36:08):
It stayed really cool, real cold. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:36:12):
Did you notice any trends with the average life span
of domestic dogs thousands of years ago? Did it seem
very different?

Speaker 6 (01:36:20):
Not really? You know, we found lots of ten twelve
year old dogs. Wow, ancient dogs, which is, you know,
not that far off from now. I mean how old,
dear guys.

Speaker 7 (01:36:32):
Hunting dogs, I always say, twelve is an easy number.

Speaker 6 (01:36:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

Speaker 7 (01:36:36):
About right of active hunting and not necessarily the last
year or two. But in some cases, you know, what
is the.

Speaker 6 (01:36:43):
Life cycle of like a hunting dog in terms of
how long does it take to train, when's it get good,
when's it kind of plateau?

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
And then when does it in the bird.

Speaker 7 (01:36:53):
Dog world, I don't know in the hound world, Yanni,
But in the bird dog world what I said, by
three years, you know what you have third season, and
of course that takes training to get there.

Speaker 1 (01:37:03):
His die has been cast.

Speaker 7 (01:37:04):
Right right, like he's but this way, he's not going
to get better. He's not going to start pointing him
forty yards away. And giving you more opportunity. Whatever he's
developed over a couple of three seasons, there's your dog.

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
How long until you know? How long until you know
what you got?

Speaker 7 (01:37:20):
Usually you can tell about a year and a half,
like you used to get one hunting season behind you,
and you see potential and then you're just hoping to
build on that. But sometimes it just never builds.

Speaker 1 (01:37:30):
God, it just but you formed on strong. At a
year and a half, you have a strong hunch.

Speaker 7 (01:37:36):
Oh yeah yeah, And at three years you know, yeah,
I got a dog right now that hunts behind me.

Speaker 1 (01:37:43):
Jesus making sure.

Speaker 7 (01:37:45):
I just can't bear to color. We lined up in
North Dakota, Les.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
Can take off the rear on he just against you
pass one by.

Speaker 7 (01:37:55):
We had five of us pushing this big state land
and it's behind us. She's doing a nice job of
going left to right, but she's behind us. So I
think Trent said, well, how about if we turn around
and walk backwards. So yeah, she's not gonna be a
rock star but for the hound, gentleman.

Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
But what a second, I wanted this, this this rear
hunt dog. Well, so that kind of thing. There's no
way you're going.

Speaker 7 (01:38:25):
To that and I'll be honest with you. I know
for a fact because I know who owned her and
they and I got him from her. She did something
very similar to that in her little puppy test before
she was a year of age.

Speaker 1 (01:38:34):
You're not going to crack that. No, you're not gonna say.

Speaker 7 (01:38:36):
Listen, Oh you could over you could over handle her
and call her around and call her around and call
her around. I just let her hut. She hunts fine
with one person, but with more than one person she
decides to go left to right behind you. But how
long is the hound head?

Speaker 3 (01:38:54):
I think Frank could probably speak to it better than
I can.

Speaker 1 (01:38:56):
Well, it's with.

Speaker 5 (01:39:00):
They have been bread so strong over the last fifty
sixty years. You're lying the coon dogs, Yes, yeah, it's
and you all the even you know, if you're pleasure
hunting or your competition hunting, you're getting your dogs from
the same place, all out of the same litters, and

(01:39:21):
their bread for competition. So the breeding is to have
a dog that's barking, quicker, that's tree and quicker for
competition because in competition you don't necessarily have to see
a coon in the tree. In the summertime, the leaves
are full of If the trees are full of leaves
and you can't see a coon, it's called circle points

(01:39:45):
and you get credit for that. You know, you could
you could win a coon hunting competition at night and
never look at a coon if there was any doubt
that there wasn't a coon in that tree. You know,
if you if you went to a tree that didn't
have any leaves on it and you couldn't you everybody can. Yeah,
you could look all the way around and there wasn't
any holes in it and you could see you know,

(01:40:06):
that's called slick treeing. You know, there's nothing in there.
That's that's a minus. If you tree on that same
tree in the summertime, when it's full of leaves and
you just can't happen to see it, you can say, well,
they're theoretically you know, you could hide six up there,
but we just can't see them. But that's you know,
would you see your beast? Well, my dog started treating

(01:40:28):
by hisself when he was nine months old, but that's
not I mean, that's not highly unusual. There's yeah, it's
all that's what it is. He he is following that
genetic cold that's been instilled in him.

Speaker 1 (01:40:41):
But at a year, like you.

Speaker 5 (01:40:42):
Were saying, a year and a year and a half,
that's when most folks start deciding I'm going to keep
this dog, or you know, maybe he's got some characteristics
that I don't like that I'm that somebody else is
okay with. And I'm not a competition hunter, so I'm
just I'm just looking for when I cut the dog loose,
that when he starts treeing, that he's he's looking at
a looking at a coon. So what he does between

(01:41:04):
the time I turn him loose and he treats a coon,
it's really immaterial to me. As long as he barks
enough that I can keep up with him. He's not
running deer, not running chasing armadals or treeing possums or
anything like that off game, which he doesn't. And it's
it's you talk about wolves and how dogs came from that,

(01:41:25):
you know, it's inherently against what a predator would do.
Chasing prey to make noise, you know, A coon dog
or any kind of dog that chases game that barks
out loud for you to know where he's at, is
really going against what would would be able for them
to fill in the dinner plate because he's chasing a

(01:41:47):
coon to eat, because it's a prey drive, the prey
instinct that he's going after.

Speaker 7 (01:41:52):
He's giving him a lot of warning, he's marking.

Speaker 5 (01:41:54):
He's saying, I'm coming, you know, and that's no point
tree with the whole exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:42:01):
He's like Kevin Murphy.

Speaker 1 (01:42:03):
I feel the need to quote Jerry Kloer. Jerry Klower said,
when Brummy trees out on a coon, you don't have
to worry about no possum or no wildcat. That's right,
that's exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:42:13):
How many prime years will you get then out of that?

Speaker 5 (01:42:17):
Oh you can, you know, with proper care, and he
gets carred for properly. You can hunt a dog, you know,
seven eight, nine years old, and we hunt. I keep
I keep him in shape, We hunt, you know, year round.
His doghouse has an air conditioner in it.

Speaker 7 (01:42:39):
I think that'll build up tolerance.

Speaker 5 (01:42:42):
And a heater so it never gets hotter than seventy
five degrees in there, colder than fifty five.

Speaker 7 (01:42:49):
Hey, Steve, did you know that your hometown, my adopted hometown,
is home of one of the most famous coon dog
walker bereaeders in the history of the world. Oh yeah,
the Giddings family, Chuck, Frank Kitttings, Frank Frank Gettings, Chuck.
Really yeah, he had that.

Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
Carl got his walkers and everything. Yep.

Speaker 7 (01:43:09):
And his son, Chuck lives right next door to me.
That log home next to me, that's Chuck Gettings house. Seriously, yeah,
and his dad is in his eighties and he still
runs coons every night, every night, every night.

Speaker 1 (01:43:22):
So is that well, no, you can't because I thought
it was the training season there, oh, Phil.

Speaker 7 (01:43:31):
There is the season when it is closed. You're right,
But any night that he could be out out that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:43:39):
Heed.

Speaker 5 (01:43:41):
In Arkansas, you can hunt, you know your you can
hunt your round and you can take game. You can
kill coons on private land year round and there's no
limit on them. I don't kill very man coon scept
in the wintertime when the when the fur is good,
you know, I'll bring the fur home. But the you
can still get out there and do it. And then
you know, those dogs, there's the domestication of them. And

(01:44:05):
a lot of people would think, or I used to
think that it was you had to train a dog
to make him do what you wanted to. It had
to be about four, she would think, you know, somebody,
really he had had to be heavy handed with.

Speaker 1 (01:44:16):
A dog to get him to do something. But that's
not the case.

Speaker 8 (01:44:19):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:44:20):
You know, every dog that I've ever owned, even labradors
when I was training the labradors, they have an inherent
desire to please you. And you just got to if
you can't show that dog that you appreciate what he's
doing and let him know that. When when whaling trees
and he he when I cut him loose and he tracks,

(01:44:42):
he barks on the trail and then he trees and
I praise him. That's all that's that's his reward. His
reward is not the coon in the tree, because those
those days are over with. His reward is me being
pleased with how he did it. If he goes out
to do it again. Yeah, And if he goes out
and does something, he does some the wrong, I mean,
knock on wood. He's never treated a possum. But how

(01:45:03):
I would deal with that is he wouldn't get a reward.

Speaker 7 (01:45:06):
He'd just be like, come on, let's get out of here.

Speaker 5 (01:45:08):
I put I put a snap on a leash on
him and lead him away and cut him loose again.

Speaker 7 (01:45:12):
And it would be different for him. He'd be like,
he's like, oh man, he rubs my ears real good
when we do this.

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):
Yeah, election is still gonna let him come in the house.

Speaker 3 (01:45:23):
But most ancient people get the same feeling of just
joyful pride that I got when I was in Arkansas
and Mingus treated his first coon.

Speaker 1 (01:45:34):
That doesn't.

Speaker 6 (01:45:36):
I mean, let me tell you, I've seen some really elaborate,
elaborate dog burials, ancient dog burials. There's one site in
Sweden where big cemetery got humans in big cemetery, but
humans in one location, young children in this kind of

(01:45:56):
like middle ground location, and then a whole cemetery of
dogs and some of those dog barrils. One of those
dog barrels is the most like richly decorated, more than
the human burials. It's got, I mean, all sorts of
shells and points and red deer antlers and ochre and
the whole it's it's curled up with its tail kind

(01:46:18):
of between its legs and it's its legs tucked up.
And I mean, you have to think that a dog's
not being parried like that unless something, Yeah, there's something
like they're just thinking like this is the greatest dog ever.
But also you know, there's no telling how many hunting

(01:46:39):
dogs they lost in the forest, right, and the dog
gets buried in the forest and never makes it makes
it back. But I mean, what for me for domestication studies,
I think one of the most interesting questions for me
is this you know thing that you guys are talking
about where they are the ancestors of wolves. They have
a prey drive. But somehow we've something's happened in the

(01:47:04):
relationship with humans where they have mosts released to let
the final step be kind of taken over by humans,
right to make the kill, to make whatever that that
final decision is on. Okay, I've chased, I've scented it,
I've gotten you here, I've done my job as I've

(01:47:25):
used all my innate senses as a dog to get
us here. Now you're the one to make.

Speaker 1 (01:47:33):
The kill that raca the tree. It's like you get
like a couple of seconds, I portion it out, I
get what I want you.

Speaker 6 (01:47:44):
This is the question of like how did that This
is interesting to me of like how that process happens.
That's brilliant where wolves released that control over the final
step of the kill and then what happens afterwards. And
so when people tell me, you know, we we we
chose to domesticate wolves like we would have were hunting

(01:48:07):
alongside them, I'm trying to think, like, you know, it's
almost like Twilight, like running in the woods alongside the
wolves and you're hunting deer and I'm hunting deer, and
so we decided to hunt together. I just can't see that.
I can't see the scenario in which you make a kill.
You're there, the pack of wolves and you and a
deer between you.

Speaker 7 (01:48:32):
Go ahead.

Speaker 5 (01:48:34):
Well, seventy but I would say easily seventy percent of
the dogs that I hunt with now, if it's during
kill season in the winter and we shoot a coon out,
they'll They'll grab a hold of it and then that's it.
I'll just turn and walk away and go look for another.

Speaker 3 (01:48:47):
They just need a little the same way you think
he's just going to tear the thing to shreds, but
he gives it one little Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:56):
He gets his food from you. My kids have a
red squirrel dog. It is an expert red squirrel hunter,
and all she wants to do is she wants to
know that they've been shot down. Out of the tree,
won't eed it, no desire to pick it up.

Speaker 3 (01:49:12):
She's treeing those resis.

Speaker 1 (01:49:13):
Oh my god, Yeah, she trees them with a bark. Nope,
that's the I said. If you could get that dog
to bark, they got a follower. She'll hear if a
pine squirrel cuts out, she's going to that pine squirrel
and she will get and sit at the base of
tree and stare at that squirrel. And if you find her,
there's a squirrel there and she's sitting there staring at it.
And when they shoot it down, she's just done.

Speaker 7 (01:49:36):
Did you do any gun preparation for this or did
it just work out?

Speaker 1 (01:49:39):
No? They kept telling me how good she was at it,
and I kind of didn't believe it. But it's it's true. Man.
That dog is a That dog will get one squirrel
after the other, after the other after the other. Right,
because pine squirrels are so vocal and they have the
achilles their achilles heel. I'm not saying every one of
them does it, but when they're not happy with your presence,

(01:50:00):
they oh so just keeps it going. There's always if
you're in a good area, there's always two or.

Speaker 7 (01:50:06):
Three of them.

Speaker 1 (01:50:06):
Going, dude you And so she just goes to that
one and she'll find out where it is and stare
at it, and they'd act different. They'll when she treats them,
they'll treat lower and out in the open and often
sit there barking at her, not like they would with
a person. Yeah, so they my kids clean up on
them anyway, zero interest.

Speaker 6 (01:50:25):
What's happened. Something's happened.

Speaker 1 (01:50:27):
It wants to see them and wants to go out
and be like, yep, that one's dead and that's it.

Speaker 6 (01:50:31):
But they've like that last final step of like predator
response partnership has like released to humans.

Speaker 1 (01:50:39):
That's a great point. Why you'd go through all that
trouble and then a thing that would once reward you
and your pack with all this food. You'd go through
all of that same trouble and in the end not
get to be the one you get the scramps, not
get to be the one that decides on allocation.

Speaker 6 (01:50:59):
You do all the work, and then you're just like
let go and then like back. Which is interesting when
we have conversations with people.

Speaker 7 (01:51:09):
Didn't happen till they made Kipple dry dog.

Speaker 6 (01:51:10):
For But I mean, you know, people have cats who
you know, those cats go out and they'll fend for
themselves all day long.

Speaker 1 (01:51:18):
But yeah, get a cat thust.

Speaker 6 (01:51:20):
Dogs like they can chase they can.

Speaker 5 (01:51:24):
Yeah, I can tell you a little something about cats
as far as law enforcement goes. Anytime any kind of
investigation where we had a death on a you know
and unobserved death where someone old person or something, they
had died in the house lands in their feeding on them,
they had a cat. The cat to be eating them.
Where what's it like to eat nose first? Yeah, that's

(01:51:46):
where they'll start. And then you go in there with
a dog and a dog will be starving to death,
will be dead laying beside them.

Speaker 1 (01:51:52):
They won't eat them, you know, cat will eat you
for the shelter. Take your laugh, take your last breath,
you know. I mean dogs on search.

Speaker 2 (01:52:06):
This podcast all about dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:52:08):
We play cat in the titles. Yeah, so like I'm
thinking c a t apostrophe LLL right.

Speaker 8 (01:52:20):
Like a parenthetical part of the title, like dogs are better.

Speaker 1 (01:52:23):
I got one last question that weren't handed over to Ronnie.
You're not interested in dogs, like you don't have a
bunch of dogs.

Speaker 6 (01:52:32):
I have dogs?

Speaker 1 (01:52:33):
Oh you do? Okay, I thought you were saying that
you just didn't you weren't into like actually having them.

Speaker 6 (01:52:37):
No, I have dogs. I've always had dogs my parents.

Speaker 1 (01:52:40):
Somehow in the pre chat I picked up that I
didn't get that.

Speaker 6 (01:52:43):
Yeah I have Westies.

Speaker 1 (01:52:46):
Oh I just picked that up. Okay, I thought you
were saying you were fixing to get into west.

Speaker 6 (01:52:50):
I'm fixing to get into some new dogs. I'm fixing
to some were I want like big livestock guarding dogs,
you know, lives. That's what we're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:53:03):
She goes.

Speaker 7 (01:53:03):
Now I got to get I.

Speaker 6 (01:53:04):
Have to get goats and sheep and property.

Speaker 1 (01:53:07):
You know, you don't start with you start with like
that jail.

Speaker 6 (01:53:18):
This is what I this is. This is part of
what I argue with some of my you know, archaeology
colleagues about it is like, if you decide you're gonna
you're gonna use dogs to hunt, right, and the dogs
are like the primary decision makers. Then does all technology
follow from using dogs to hunt? This is the other
technology that you use then have to align with how

(01:53:40):
you hunt with dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:53:43):
You know, my guess would be and I don't know
my guess would be with humans. It was that initially,
it was that it was useful foreign activity already occurring,
and not that they said. He if we had one
of those, we would change how we go about this. Yeah,

(01:54:06):
it was probably you know, when we try to drive
all those things up into that box canyon, that would
go even better. Yeah, well the dog.

Speaker 6 (01:54:14):
Yeah, So the ethnography and the ethnic history when you
read about hunting, I read a lot of like you know,
modern ethnography, but historical ethnography about people who went and
lived with indigenous groups somewhere and how they use dogs,
and you hear similar stories over and over. There's always
like a prize dog who's just the best, and everyone

(01:54:35):
wants the puppies from that prize dog and like allows
them to do something that they couldn't do before. You
always hear stories about some type of prey, usually something
semi dangerous, bore or something like that that is just
too dangerous to go after on their own, but now
that they have dogs, they've decided they're gonna go after it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
That's what I was wrong.

Speaker 6 (01:54:56):
Well, for certain animals, I think for some, like the
most more dangerous animals. You hear this in like Arabia
for example, like going after ibex, super dangerous and they
get themselves up into like crevices and stuff that you're
not going to go after them, but your dogs will.
Got it, So praise spieces that you normally would be
like not not.

Speaker 1 (01:55:17):
It opened up opportunity, opportunity, we know. It backs you
up on that. The last thing you're gonna do is
catch a lion. Yeah, I mean you live, you could
live a lifetime. I mean a mountain lion. Yeah, you
live a lifetime and be like I spent my whole
life in the mountains that I've seen two mountain lions.

Speaker 6 (01:55:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:55:32):
So that opens up a thing that you just are
not going to accomplish. Yeah, and it makes it possible.
Yeah right, it's not like it so that that contradicts
my earlier point. You're right, it's like you're not going
to get one without it.

Speaker 6 (01:55:44):
Yeah, you know, yeah, there are certain there are certain things.
You also hear a lot of stories of we used
to have to go out in five or ten person
hunting groups. But now Phil Phil can go out by himself,
This Phil or that Phil, any Phil, Phil can go
out by himself with a group of five dogs and
do what we used to have to take ten people.
Now the other eight people can go and do something

(01:56:07):
actually useful around the camp, or go somewhere else and
do something else. So it frees up people to do
other things because a pack of dogs can do what
a pack of humans would do, and probably much better.

Speaker 1 (01:56:20):
Me and Yanni interviewed a guy, do you remember his Yanni,
a Chimane guy. He had to tell his story in
Chimane to someone who spoke Spanish.

Speaker 3 (01:56:32):
No, to someone that spoke correct, that spoke Timani and Spanish.

Speaker 1 (01:56:37):
He told me someone who knows Chimani and Spanish, who
then listened and told it, and then to a Spanish
Spanish English speaker, and then we're getting to like third hand.
It was a big story about hunting jaguars with a
dog and a jaguar that had killed some of his dogs,
and eventually getting a jaguar or after it killed his

(01:57:02):
primary dog, Yeah, his main dog.

Speaker 8 (01:57:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:57:05):
Yeah, So my colleague that I told you about before
in Nicaragua, lots of jaguars where he is, and he says,
you know, when he goes back, the percentage of dogs
that are left from the year before is very low,
and it's largely due to jaguars, but they're also using
the dog. They're using the dogs as hunting dogs, but
also is in many ways that kind of not bait.

(01:57:26):
But if jaguars going to attack someone, then you'd rather
attack your dog and attack you.

Speaker 1 (01:57:31):
We were in a village they had lost at the
time we were there, and it continued for a while.
At the time we were there, they had in the
last month or two, I camera the timing they had
lost twenty four dogs to a jaguar, which they thought
to be a single jaguar had killed twenty four dogs
I camera as the last month or two, and it
went on after we left, right.

Speaker 6 (01:57:49):
But this is also the reason why when you ask
people in a village like that, like how much time
you spend training your dogs? How much time you're going
to spend training a dog that like tomorrow could get
killed by a ja So you rely on some level
of like natural ability and instinct, which is probably also
why hunting dogs can be really great there but also
really frustrating because they don't have much training. You're just

(01:58:11):
hoping for a good one. When you do get a
good one, you breed them and you everyone wants the
puppies because they're hoping that one's natural abilities of hunting,
you know, kind of pan out, but you don't have
three years because they might get killed by jaguar tomorrow.
So that's a lot of training investment to put into
the dog that's going to get killed tomorrow. So I

(01:58:31):
think the use of hunting dogs is highly correlated to
like what pray you're going after, the environment that you're
in that determines how useful a hunting dog may or
may not be, and a lot of places where you
read Ethnografyorth no history of hunting dogs. You know, the
use of hunting dogs is like critical to their economy.
They can't go out and take the number of animals

(01:58:54):
that they could they were doing it by themselves. Or
you know, you have a single guy who's trying to
feed his family and he can go out maybe take
down one small animal, but with a pack of dogs,
he can corral an animal and then kill it and
make a much bigger kill or something like that. So
you know, there are these kind of variations based on
what prey you're going after. Or you know, your dogs

(01:59:15):
make it eight nine years with productive hunting, but if
they're an environment where mountain lions are going after him,
or jaguar or something like that, wolves going after them
or something like that. Maybe you wouldn't put the time
and effort into the training if you're losing dogs more
regularly or something like.

Speaker 5 (01:59:30):
That, they concentrate more on quantity.

Speaker 6 (01:59:35):
Right with your dogs, do you guys? Are they trained
by humans only or is it reliance on other dogs.

Speaker 5 (01:59:42):
That's the two methods that that coon dogs use. But
they're so independent now. That's when I was training in mine.
I was training with a friend of mine. He had
an older dog, well established and straight coon dog. He
didn't treat possums or anything, and we'd cut them loose together,
but they would after one hundred and fifty two hundred

(02:00:05):
yards of my dog following him around, he would just
break off on his own and then and that independence
has been bred into him a lot because of the
competition hunting where.

Speaker 1 (02:00:18):
Oh, because they got he's got to score. You don't
want like a you don't want to tag along dog right.

Speaker 5 (02:00:24):
Because because of who If he's second to the tree,
then he's his points are or less.

Speaker 1 (02:00:30):
But if he goes and does his own thing, he
gets the same prioritize dog that doesn't like peers. That's
more independent.

Speaker 6 (02:00:37):
Yeah, And what is the like through rate? If you
have a litter of six pups, how many of those
six pups and the dogs you're talking about turn out
to be.

Speaker 5 (02:00:48):
There's a guy that had a the who's the grandfather
of my dog? And that dog was like one of
ten or twelve, and it was the rest of them
are nothing, And this dog was an absolute world beater.
They he bred him with another world beaten female, a

(02:01:09):
whole litter of puppies that you would think would be dynamos.
None of them are worth anything, bred them again the
next time, and maybe three out of ten were world beaters.
So it's just, you know, there's a lot of math
that goes in there that nobody understands, because it's not
always best and best bread together make the best, and

(02:01:31):
it just doesn't work that way. And I can't answer
why that is. But you would think the same. And
it's like me and my brothers, we got the same
mom and the same daddy. I'm the only pretty one
out of the whole brunch.

Speaker 1 (02:01:47):
So it's the same thing. So didn't Jerry Clark call
you pretty? He did, so you're a pretty boy. Put
him in the whole New life. Did he say it
like how like say a clown like a like like
a you know, like a creepy way like a grandpa. Okay,

(02:02:10):
not like you know what I'm saying. No, like no,
all right, Ronnie, take it away.

Speaker 7 (02:02:15):
Uh Well, I just want to thank you for letting
me come out to do a little advertising. Yep, you
let me come out a couple of years ago and
we released the Upland Institute the Pointing Dog Training series,
which is done very well. And I do get notes
from emails. Heard about you on Meat Eater podcast. Great
finally got a puppy and they remembered it. So I

(02:02:36):
called you up and I said, uh, I got into
the project I'm working on right now, and I had
so much fun, like getting into the not that I'm
the editor, but sitting in on the editing process and
watching how you could just take a bunch of let's
just say b roll, even if it's on purpose, and
you could turn it into something. And Matt, my partner,

(02:02:59):
he loves the job of editing, and he kind of said,
what can we do down the road? He said, he said,
I you know, we're burning He's burning the candle at
both ends. But he said, what can we do? And
he's got a day job right as an editor, you know,
but he he would like to do this full time.
I'm like, boy, I mean we could do I didn't

(02:03:20):
want to do a different training video because I already
did a training video and it came to me like
I get so I filter so many people's emails, Ronnie,
I'm getting my next dog, Ronnie, I'm getting my first dog, Ronnie.
I'm I went from German short hairs and I want
to try one of your big, long eared broncos. So

(02:03:41):
I realized it's just like, until you've been in it,
there's a lot of people just will never really get
into the minutia of how dogs are bred, how they're selected,
how it happened. So we decided to build this series
that were filmed. In the middle of filming, We've got
a couple episodes done. It's called Behind the Dog because
that's kind of like, if you're a dog person, everything

(02:04:02):
you do is behind the dog, or in.

Speaker 1 (02:04:04):
The case of your dog, in front of the dog in.

Speaker 2 (02:04:07):
The one dog's case, right exactly.

Speaker 7 (02:04:10):
So yeah, so Behind the Dog films what we're doing
is we're trying to find let's say the top tier
breeders of every breed in this country, and there's a
lot of them.

Speaker 1 (02:04:20):
Right.

Speaker 7 (02:04:21):
We did one with a short hair a German short
hair pointer breeder. We're working on editing one that we
did with a Vima. I'm gonna do it right a
or a weimer Reiner.

Speaker 1 (02:04:32):
How it was supposed to go yea wema, yeah, and
why Wagner group in the group.

Speaker 7 (02:04:37):
Exactly exactly, And then of course, you know, a more
difficult one will be And we found a labrador breeder,
and there's so many labradors in this country. But what
we're trying to do is find the breeders that put
the most back into the breed god, from health testing
to hunt testing and an actual hunting. Like there's never

(02:04:58):
going to be someone who just shows their dogs in
a show ring, but they might hunt them, show them
and sign up for every possible health test they could
because they're so concerned that like, look, I'm selling these
dogs for a lot of money. Now, remember what a
dog costs twenty even twenty years ago, we spent two
hundred dollars on a dog or five hundred maybe, And

(02:05:21):
so we want to kind of bring these what are not.

Speaker 1 (02:05:23):
Don't give me the extremes, but what's happened to that
price two to five twenty years ago has become two thousand.

Speaker 7 (02:05:29):
That would be easy right in the middle, two thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (02:05:34):
There was an auction recently, like an outfitter auction down
in New Mexico, a mule and hound auction. I don't
know what the mules went for, but there were a
couple of dogs that broke twenty thousand for lionhounds. Yeah, wow,
dry ground line.

Speaker 5 (02:05:48):
Yeah, that's every day in the coon hound world.

Speaker 7 (02:05:51):
So that's what we're That's like kind of our Grail quest.
We we want to find the top tier breeders and
eventually even go down to Terry or colleagues. Got ways
to go for you get there. We got but it
gives me something to do. I'm retired, so I can
just drive around the country.

Speaker 1 (02:06:07):
Well, let me just chime in them out. So what
I thought was that what one did was I looking
I can't remember.

Speaker 7 (02:06:11):
Were looking at the one about the Germany short hair breeders.

Speaker 1 (02:06:14):
So so Ronnie's at a breeder right, kind of doing
a podcast. Yeah, and they're but they're showing so there
they have all these dogs running around different age classes,
and just this is just one of the many things
in here, right is they stand one up. Okay, they
stand one up on a pedestal. What do you call
that thing?

Speaker 7 (02:06:33):
Just tap the platform.

Speaker 1 (02:06:34):
They stand one up on a platform, and they say,
when I'm when I'm looking at these, here's what I'm
looking for, very specific.

Speaker 7 (02:06:43):
The nose could this confirmation?

Speaker 1 (02:06:45):
Yeah, it would stand this way, This should look like this.
This should look like this. So even if you weren't
at even if you weren't going to that breeder, let's
say you can't afford it or whatever you could, you
still watch it and you'd be like, oh, okay, so
when I go look at pops, I'm trying to select
the pop from my neighbor, from the dog pound whatever.

Speaker 7 (02:07:04):
These are attributes that would be K nine attributes.

Speaker 1 (02:07:08):
Yeah, they'd be like, you don't know, and like you said,
you don't know yet how it's gonna turn out. Maybe,
but these are attributes that would be signifiers of some
of the things you might want to look for in early.

Speaker 7 (02:07:21):
Selection, right, Yeah, and we will in some of the episodes.
We'll get into it as deep as we did in
the first one where we showed basically we took like
a year old dog and then went backwards to a
sixteen week old dog, then a twelve, then an eight,
then a four, and what she did with these pups
for confirmation, it's been done for decades. Another woman started

(02:07:44):
this where they literally can pick the dog up by
the by the under the collar and between the legs
and just watch the way the legs hang. I mean,
someone are going to walk like me, Steve, and you
know how funny I walk right with my knees out. Well,
a puppy will show you that same thing. If he's
gonna be cow howked, which is where they it would

(02:08:05):
be knock kneed. If you were a person, you don't
want to find out that you're gonna have a cow
howk It's gonna run funny and eventually not be able
to do the performance you want to do. It's gonna
wear out its back end, it's gonna wear out its joints,
just like I did, you know, walking with my knees
going up in two directions. So yeah, there's things you
could learn. You don't have to be interested in the

(02:08:26):
German short hair. You could watch what she's doing with
that puppy and like, wow, I'm gonna do that next
time I look for a dog. And then so, yeah,
it's like a We always interview the person at their
home or their kennel or usually it's always both, of course.
So we record a podcast just at a kitchen table,
and then we film the whole time. We're doing it,

(02:08:47):
like you're doing here. Now, we have cameras, two or.

Speaker 1 (02:08:50):
Three cameras film that and the hunts and everything.

Speaker 7 (02:08:53):
Right, And in that person's case, yeah, we hunted together
that that prior season in North Dakota, so we use
some of that footage when talking about how we met.
You're actually watching our footage of our hunt in North.

Speaker 1 (02:09:04):
Dakota, and you learn, Like in that case, when I watch,
you learn, why is hunting with this kind of dog?
How is that different than other kinds of dogs? Meaning
what are some of the expectations if you think about
a bird hunting dog, what are some of the expectations
of this breed, what are some of the expectations of
that breed.

Speaker 7 (02:09:22):
Yeah, and I honestly, I think where the point I
want to make to people is like a bird dog
is pretty much a bird dog, just like a hound
is pretty much a trailing hound. They have some that
are a little better at big game, a little better
at small game. But it's what the breeders put into it.
It's the standards that they hold themselves to. And when

(02:09:43):
I say standard, it's their breeding ethics. But every breed
in this country now, And that's why I wanted to
ask you Angel, like, if you had a dire wolf skull,
so all dogs have forty two teeth, would juicy? Yeah,
twenty two and twenty and or two and twenty up?
Would you see teeth misalignments and old skulls, So that

(02:10:07):
would indicate to me hell.

Speaker 1 (02:10:08):
Of a trivia question. Man, Damn it.

Speaker 3 (02:10:12):
Was Ronnie that yesterday. I even wrote it down in
my notes that was going to use that in oh Fu.

Speaker 1 (02:10:18):
Yeah, nobody would have got it right.

Speaker 7 (02:10:19):
Where a tiebreaker, but you also said that nobody would
get it right, so it might not be hard.

Speaker 1 (02:10:26):
Was phenomenal tiebreaker material.

Speaker 7 (02:10:28):
What I wanted to ask Angel is like, if you found, uh,
there was a dire wolf or a wolf or whatever
with bad teeth, that's an indication of probably too much
generational breeding. Possibly, Yeah, because if you had a dire
wolf skull, how many of those exist out there.

Speaker 1 (02:10:43):
I don't even know. I'll tell you there's one hundred
and seventy five of them.

Speaker 7 (02:10:45):
Oh there's Would they have any malclusions in their mouth?

Speaker 3 (02:10:50):
They do?

Speaker 6 (02:10:50):
They would too, Yeah, they haveclusions, they're missing molers, they
have all sorts of.

Speaker 7 (02:10:56):
So all that is coming from that far back, I
thought it was more of a last hundred years bringing.

Speaker 1 (02:11:01):
Things from messing with them too much.

Speaker 6 (02:11:03):
This is what we're trying to sort out right now,
is that we think some of the things you're selecting
for positively, like you know, a water dog, you want
something with this type of coat, right, shoes, something that
goes with this type of coat. But what trails along
with it? The jeans that partner with that that you
don't necessarily want but you're not thinking about. Come along for.

Speaker 1 (02:11:22):
The ride like bad hips, come along for the ride.

Speaker 7 (02:11:27):
I think we got to have you on an episode
someday of Behind the Dog. Well, anyway, thank you, Steve.
It's a It's all you have to do is go
to behind Dog Films dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:11:37):
Well, so how many when you launch? Like? How many?
Tell me what ones you're gonna have done? Now?

Speaker 7 (02:11:42):
Well, we have two completed. One of them was not
a breeder specific, but it was a training video that
we were shooting, and we really got into the weeds
about how any good bird dog, especially duck dog obviously
has to be comfortable with the water. Should just be
another terrain to even your house dog.

Speaker 1 (02:12:03):
Right, if you go, you don't need to coax it
at the shoreline.

Speaker 7 (02:12:06):
Dog on a walk and it won't cross the creek
with you. Your kids aren't gonna let you finish the
walk because the dog's like, well, but some dogs literally
won't put a foot in water.

Speaker 1 (02:12:17):
So I know. I went down with her friend to
swim at the creek yesterday and her friends got her
dog in a life jacket.

Speaker 7 (02:12:24):
They don't need that.

Speaker 1 (02:12:25):
They don't need that. I said to her, I said,
did she got dog? He's a life jacket. She's oil.
She'll sink.

Speaker 3 (02:12:33):
That dog does not know how to swim.

Speaker 7 (02:12:35):
Does he swim like vertical? Yeah, that's not good.

Speaker 1 (02:12:38):
That's gonna wear all quick.

Speaker 7 (02:12:40):
But to answer your question, we did one with a
breeder in Michigan that breeds German short airs. Yeah, we
have a training one about the water. We're editing one
currently with the Wine Mariner breed. Got it, Uh, we're
going to what we're going to do. A wire haired
pointing griffin breeder, and then a labraader, and then a
poodle point breeder. Got it, poodle pointers, Not think of poodle,

(02:13:02):
it's pu d e l. It's a German breed. We're
gonna do that, I'm boise. So it's gonna be probably
one a month until you know, we say, okay, Matt,
quit your day job.

Speaker 1 (02:13:16):
And someday you might tackle the hounds. And oh absolutely.

Speaker 7 (02:13:19):
In fact, if Frank Gettings could be alive for long enough,
I mean he might. But you also have to have
the person that's good on the microphone too, which sure
I always remember, like you had the first show Wild
Within and you did that moose hunt and I specifically
asked you how come you didn't have the guy on
camera with you very much? And he says he just, well,
come on, no, all right, Well, I'm just saying you

(02:13:42):
have to find the right not just the right breeder,
but the right conversationalist.

Speaker 1 (02:13:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (02:13:47):
They can be great at what they do, but they
don't convey it. So you got so I that's my
goal is to find the people that can convey their passion.

Speaker 1 (02:13:56):
Sure, and then your area of expertise is birds.

Speaker 7 (02:13:59):
You like stuff with others, right, everything, everything that flies.

Speaker 1 (02:14:02):
Right.

Speaker 7 (02:14:03):
But that's why I want to you know, like the
hounds is going to be a tough one to do.
You know, there there's houndsmen that don't follow any pedigree,
like they'll just they'll breed another outside type of hound.
There's what is there seven basic hounds m H five Yeah,
saving seven. So if if Brent wanted to take his

(02:14:26):
walk what is your reading tree and walker and he
did it to Yanni's redbone or blue tech, that's the
hound joke and they bring them together, they probably get
the same money for him. Oh it's it's more of
a sarcastic.

Speaker 1 (02:14:45):
Yeah, you mean, like you you like a walkers, you're
down on red bones and bluetooth anything else?

Speaker 7 (02:14:52):
Right, not really, but only among friends, right, So the houndsman,
Like for me, I'm gonna have to find the houndsman
who probably has a ten generation pedigree on his dogs.
And really collectively and consciously it's like no, no, no,
her her, her grandma did the same thing. Literally stood

(02:15:16):
into kennel, barked and made circles. And you'll see that
follow in litters of dogs all of a sudden and
briers like, oh my god, that's just like her great
aunt drove me crazy and it just pops up. Right,
So I'm going to have to find a hound breeders
that are like you guys Yianni and Brent might.

Speaker 1 (02:15:34):
Have to help got his dog from the dog.

Speaker 7 (02:15:36):
Well, I'm not gonna go to the but you're meeting
so many you know, houndsmen. There's got to be that
houndsman out there that like knows that breed like the
plots do like like like obviously I would go to
Bob plot to learn about the plot hounds.

Speaker 1 (02:15:51):
I didn't know. The plots are still the plots.

Speaker 7 (02:15:53):
Yeah, the plots are the plots still yep from Johanna's plot.

Speaker 1 (02:15:58):
Yeah, a lot of times they come like the Dickenson's
or something over time, right, really still the plots patrilineal descent.

Speaker 7 (02:16:05):
Well, obviously there's some you know, some coyotes and some
other stuff probably happened.

Speaker 1 (02:16:11):
There's something in that, there's something in the woodpile.

Speaker 7 (02:16:14):
But for the most part, yes, yeah, like Clay would
know all about Like Clay could lock me up with
a bunch of good ones.

Speaker 1 (02:16:21):
So behind the dog dot.

Speaker 7 (02:16:23):
Com, behind the dog films dot.

Speaker 1 (02:16:24):
Com, behind the dog films dot com.

Speaker 7 (02:16:26):
I don't think we could get behind the dog for
some reason.

Speaker 1 (02:16:29):
Yeah, you look for u r ls.

Speaker 7 (02:16:32):
There was behind the chicken, behind the horse, behind the dog,
behind the cat, like we kick it.

Speaker 1 (02:16:36):
U r L's getting hard to come by, man. That's
why places now to make up words to be Hulu whatever.
You just make up words because you can't check it
because nothing checks out anymore, right.

Speaker 7 (02:16:44):
Right, So, yeah, it's behind the dog films dot com
and uh.

Speaker 1 (02:16:49):
And and upland instu is still kicking an asswer No.

Speaker 7 (02:16:52):
Oh yeah, yeah, now that that's a that's a complete
four and a half hour training course. Yeah, yeah, still
available these Oh yeah, it'll be available till the internet
blows up, got or till we hit the little button
in the background it says disabled. No, you can download
it yourself. It's not downloadable. Otherwise you could just give
it to your friend. Yeah, this is this is a

(02:17:14):
pay system right now. We charged four ninety nine to
watch it, and we're not sure if that's the model
it's going to stay at. Yeah, but literally, just to
earn the money to keep going to the next town,
we like we had to monetize it before it was
big enough to monetize in another fashion. So, but it's
it's honestly, it's I don't know, Yanna you you did?

(02:17:36):
You get to watch the rest of it with.

Speaker 3 (02:17:38):
Yeah, we did, we did. If you like dogs, you're
gonna love it. There's a bunch of shots that dogs
running around all over there and.

Speaker 7 (02:17:43):
Some interesting conversation about that.

Speaker 1 (02:17:45):
Well, yeah, behind the Dogfilms dot com. That's it all right,
and and then and then tell folks how to find
yourself there real quick? Is there a preferred way? Texas
A and M Texas A and M.

Speaker 6 (02:17:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:17:57):
Do you want people to write in with all kinds
of things like, hey, I got this one dog.

Speaker 6 (02:18:02):
I get a lot of interesting emails.

Speaker 1 (02:18:04):
What's the thing you'd be most interested in hearing about
if the museum had a dire wolf? Uh?

Speaker 6 (02:18:11):
Yeah, well I get a lot of people asking me
about dire wolves, are saying that they think they have
dire wolf stuff at various museums.

Speaker 1 (02:18:16):
What's the most annoying email you get? This will help
people not email.

Speaker 6 (02:18:21):
Like ancient alien dog.

Speaker 2 (02:18:26):
You don't want those theories.

Speaker 1 (02:18:30):
I'm listening to this show. Email is in an alien
dog theory, Man.

Speaker 4 (02:18:35):
Do you like Steve though and explain what the theory
would be actually, So, I.

Speaker 6 (02:18:40):
Get a lot of people saying that dogs are actually
aliens that have come from the Dog Star Cirrus, and
that that some genetic material has come out of the
star arrived on Earth and that dogs have appeared from there.
And I'm dumb for this is a thing. It's a thing.

(02:19:08):
It must be like on the internet somewhere that the
dog star is serious?

Speaker 3 (02:19:13):
Is you know a Westy and then that star? It
just makes more sense the star.

Speaker 7 (02:19:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:19:25):
The writer Joan Didion speaks about this, and this is
pre internet. The writer Joan Didion and slouching towards Bethlehem.
She talks about how some people cope with how much information.
There's so much information, and you you face a fork
in the road where you are interested in the subject,

(02:19:49):
let's say like geopolitics, dogs, whatever, economy, economics. You go like, Man,
I could take the fork that would be to just
to try to digest and understand all of this information.
Or I could take the fork where I know a
little thing that no one else knows. Yeah, and that's

(02:20:12):
really what's going on, And that's a seductive.

Speaker 6 (02:20:15):
Little fork dogs are aliens.

Speaker 1 (02:20:17):
That's where you get That's where so many conspiracy theories
come from. Is you're just it's it's like there's insurmountable
amounts of information and you're like, yeah, that seems like
a lot of work. Yeah, I'm buying this dog star deal, yes,
because that is just easy and then only I know it.

Speaker 6 (02:20:34):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of I get a lot of
emails thought from dog people who are convinced they have
it all figured out?

Speaker 1 (02:20:45):
Like do you call them dog people?

Speaker 6 (02:20:46):
Dog people?

Speaker 1 (02:20:46):
You know?

Speaker 6 (02:20:47):
Keeping keep emailing me, keep emailing me. I have some
good theories in my inbox.

Speaker 1 (02:20:53):
Okay, so she doesn't want to hear about dog stars,
but she doesn't want to hear I'm interesting.

Speaker 6 (02:20:59):
Give me every thing but dog stars. Yeah it.

Speaker 1 (02:21:03):
Can you get me a dire wolf skull? Anyhow? Anyway,
look at three D print?

Speaker 6 (02:21:06):
You want?

Speaker 1 (02:21:08):
Really you want? You want to take that? That's the
best I can do? Yeah, yeah, I could.

Speaker 7 (02:21:13):
Go in the backyard and dig up some skull.

Speaker 6 (02:21:17):
We can just give you a wolf skull.

Speaker 1 (02:21:19):
No, no, I want a three D. If I can
get one, I'd like to have a three D of
a of a dire wolf yeah, oh, heads up, speaking
of that, we have Krin. You haven't seen it yet.
Hunter Spencer's working on a big octopus holding the gaff.
So it's an octopus. He's got a gaff and he's
got some shrimp tucked under his arms. Do a t
shirt run if you've listened to pussing the pot, which

(02:21:42):
is also really good on search.

Speaker 3 (02:21:45):
Dominate, So hind titty, listen to pot cattle, eat your
nose whatever this one's.

Speaker 1 (02:21:50):
Going search all right, Well, thank you for joining, Thank
you for great man. Yeah, Krin, how long were you
talking about? Get the real dog expert?

Speaker 8 (02:22:01):
Like years?

Speaker 1 (02:22:04):
Dogs hundred? Yeah, he already took his head he's done.

Speaker 7 (02:22:09):
He's like, she doesn't know nothing about the blue shakes.

Speaker 1 (02:22:14):
He took his headset off. He's done.

Speaker 3 (02:22:16):
Any more funny than that, Come on.

Speaker 1 (02:22:19):
It was a headset drop. All right, thanks everybody.

Speaker 7 (02:22:24):
Oh r.

Speaker 6 (02:22:35):
O seal rey sho like silver in the sun. Right
right alone, sweetheart.

Speaker 9 (02:22:54):
We don't beat this damn of course today, taking no
HM and ride away. We're done beat this damned parsday,
So take a new one and ride on.

Speaker 6 (02:23:21):
H

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 466: Direwolves and Ancient Hunting Dogs