Episode 180: Serial Churn

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam Curry (00:00):
podcasting 2.0 for May 17 2024, episode 180 serial
churn. Hello, everybody. It'sFriday once again, time for the
official, the one and only boardmeaning of podcasting. 10.0.
Everybody, everything it allgets discussed right here.
That's right. We don't talkbehind your back. We are the

(00:22):
only boardroom that doesn't havea booth at a podcast conference.
If you want to know what'shappened in podcasting, it's all
here. I'm Adam curry in theheart of the Texas Hill Country
and in Alabama, the man whobrings his programmatic Ceman to
your vast say a lot of my friendon the other end, the one and
only Mr. De Jones.

Dave Jones (00:43):
says I have to tell you to rip it twice. Does that
mean I rip you a new one? Do

Adam Curry (00:46):
you really mean we're in quite the mood today,
Dave? Oh, yeah, we're in a goodmood. So we started off before
we started the show, which bythe way, we're live and lit
every single Friday afternoon.You can listen to us live and a
modern podcast app. podcastapps.com. Anyway, we're like I

(01:10):
got a rant. I gotta read I got arant. But I got something to say
I ran out because Dave was late.He was late. And before we even
start that I want to say therewill be no board meeting next
week. I will not be in town andwill not be available to record.
Warren I'm so sorry. Yes, I'mgoing to Nashville.

Dave Jones (01:26):
Oh, well that's not bad. For the

Adam Curry (01:28):
for the K love the K love awards.

Dave Jones (01:32):
Oh, yeah, this is yes. This is the is the big the
big God the God musicextravaganza.

Adam Curry (01:41):
Big God music extravaganza again Alright, so
what why were you late? What'syour Ran brother? What's going
on? What's happening? How can Ihelp?

Dave Jones (01:53):
I've spoken many times in the past about the I'm
sorry, I'm trying to put down mysalami and cheese.

Adam Curry (02:03):
I wondered what I smelled. But now I know. Cheese

Dave Jones (02:07):
is my bread breath. Yeah, so I've spoken many times
in the past about the about mymy hatred of USB C docking
stations.

Adam Curry (02:19):
Yeah, so yes, I can. Yes. And I think I've said don't
be a hater. But you have nottaken this advice clearly.

Dave Jones (02:28):
Okay, so I want to

Adam Curry (02:31):
only read up the hatred is I want to re up the
hatred now.

Dave Jones (02:34):
Yes. So this is this is a after a couple of hours of
of troubleshooting. The USBCdock. We come up with this
lovely support bulletin fromLenovo. Oh,

Adam Curry (02:52):
and this was a at the day job. This was a real
support ticket. uptaking

Dave Jones (02:56):
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And this, these these things are
just, they're just a nightmare.Everybody you talk to these
things have a limited lifespan.They're crap. Ever since they
went from old docking stationsyou had they had a custom
connector every every, every bigone. Really. It was like it was
like

Adam Curry (03:16):
70 penises because they knew scuzzy. scuzzy
connector scuzzy.

Dave Jones (03:20):
Yeah. Frozen guard, you know, frozen garden hose
type, right? Yes. Goes allproprietary. Everybody had their
own dealio Yeah, but you knowwhat they were working every
single time worked. Yeah, everytime USBC I have a document that
is like 20 pages. That shows howall of the routing internally

(03:45):
happens. Because what you see onthe end of like when you plug in
a USB C docking station, whatyou see on the on the end is
just a USBC connector, right?But there is so much going on
inside of that thing.

Adam Curry (04:03):
And ask the question, is this not
essentially like a USB donglethat has no expansion ports?
Isn't that kind of what this is?This

Dave Jones (04:16):
is no that's it and this is the problem. USB C
docking stations modern USB Cdocking stations are since our
Thunderbolt. Oh, they arethunder either Thunderbolt three
or Thunderbolt four Oh, systemboards. So these docking
stations are a synth are likethey have their firmware in

(04:38):
them. They run they run softwarethey are they are almost like a
small computer unto themselves.Oh, it's

Adam Curry (04:45):
like my LED lights. Yes. Yeah. It also buzzes on
your microphone.

Dave Jones (04:51):
So there are things that can happen with with these.
Where, where nothing you do onthe computer For itself
actually, we'll fix it. You haveto reboot the doc because the
doc is acting, it's acting.

Adam Curry (05:10):
Acting Up. Yeah. Yes.

Dave Jones (05:12):
So the the what you see at the end of the is the
USBC cord that plugs into yourcomputer. But what's happening
on the inside of that thing isyour route you're actually
routing, your routing, USB AUSB, excuse me USB one, two and
three, right, HDMI, HDMIDisplayPort potentially, if it's

(05:38):
supported VGA

Adam Curry (05:42):
video s video tell me RGB RGB s video audio

Dave Jones (05:48):
networks, gold and Ethernet Ethernet and and and
Thunderbolt potentially threeand four Thunderbolt

Adam Curry (05:58):
Can you plug in your your Nintendo data glove?

Dave Jones (06:02):
In the Lord little robot, Nintendo robot big. So
you're routing all of this stuffover over, you know, the small
connections, number of pins. Theamount of things that can go
wrong with this are limitless.The so they usually always show

(06:22):
up with video first. So like ina in a financial services
environment. Three monitors islike standard standard standard.
Yeah, standard minimum somesometimes four, sometimes five.
You see big like trading housesand stuff they may have 10 Yeah,
on a single machine. So theability to do more than two

(06:47):
monitors three four monitors isjust standard USBC based docking
stations Thunderbolt dockingstations, I struggle with this
so bad. Yeah, they they justcan't handle it. You because
there's you have differentflavors of DisplayPort over USBC
you have passive and active inall of these the end depending

(07:11):
on which configurations if youplug it in, if you have one
HDMI, one display port and oneUSB C to display port that may
trigger them to one of them togo into a different mode. It's
mind boggling, but then I runacross this wonderful support
document. After troubleshootingfor a couple of hours. Lenovo

(07:32):
critical Intel Thunderboltsoftware and firmware updates
symptom sim systems mayexperience any of the following
symptoms you're ready. Yes, USBC port not working Intel
Thunderbolt controller notvisible in the OS device manager
USB C or Thunderbolt dockingstation is not visible or having
connectivity problems. HDMIoutput not available system

(07:53):
battery not charging with theUSB C power adapter connected to
the USB C port. UntilThunderbolt pop up error message
Intel Thunderbolt Safe Modeerror message BIOS Thunderbolt
communication error or hangduring post that and here's the
kit here's the kicker, the whiteis more these symptoms may occur
after six to 12 months of usage.What

Adam Curry (08:18):
are there moving parts that were or what was
happening?

Dave Jones (08:22):
Hey, you tell me what does that even mean? That
sounds

Adam Curry (08:25):
like it's crazy. That sounds like well you know
that that monitor may have adriver update or something else
may change sounds like they'rebuilding in some wiggle room for
things changing external to thedevice.

Dave Jones (08:39):
What could possibly be inside of these things that
would that would begin totrigger problems 12 months in
the future.

Adam Curry (08:49):
Oh, I know that Venezuelan immigrants

Dave Jones (08:54):
each Thunderbolt doc has a has a Venezuelan inside of
it, I

Adam Curry (08:57):
guess. Wow. Okay, I I feel your pain brother. I feel
your pain. Yeah.

Dave Jones (09:03):
Now multiply this across hundreds of users in this
you know, so it's

Adam Curry (09:07):
primarily but it's primarily the multi monitor
users that are experiencingissues.

Dave Jones (09:12):
What happens is the they seem to work fine. This is
like being going to industryconferences and this kind of
thing that this has turned intothe USBC dock podcast. But going
to like industry conferences andtalking to my peers. This is
universal. It's not it's notanything with one specific
vendor. Like evidently the DellUSB the Thunderbolt docks are so

(09:37):
bad that like you just go aheadand budgets 12 to 18 months and
they're gonna die. Like you justbuild that in they they they
swap them out like crazy. Sothis is my Can we please go back
to the old days standard

Adam Curry (09:53):
yuck and you know that's not going to happen and
the fact that it's Thunderboltis kind of trippy is not what I
thought that wasn't Apple onlyDang, but I guess it's the
standard. And

Dave Jones (10:02):
these dogs the old school dogs used to cost $200
Oh, these these Thunderbolt fourdogs? They're $400.03 foot a
three foot Thunderbolt fourcable is $75 Wow,

Adam Curry (10:20):
what a gyp

Dave Jones (10:22):
it's outrageous and we're going to we're going to so
tell me we're gonna have drivingcars we can't we can't even get
three monitors to work over USBsee

Adam Curry (10:32):
self driving cars? Yes.

Dave Jones (10:34):
Well self driving cars

Adam Curry (10:35):
Well that brings me to your overview of the most
recent presentation by Google attheir i o event. To explain the
future of the company. Yeah,

Unknown (10:45):
I've ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai, ai ai ai ai
ai ai ai, I found the AI reallyuseful. ai ai ai ai ai, ai ai ai
ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai aiai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai

(11:14):
ai ai, ai, ai, ai ai, aistudents ai ai vertex AI
and that's the father ofgenerative

Adam Curry (11:24):
AI toolkit. Generative, generative,
generative ai, ai ai ai, thereit is. Now you know what they're
up to?

Dave Jones (11:34):
Like the one guy that didn't generate the AI? Is
that a pretend an Indian orpretending?

Adam Curry (11:40):
No, that's Oh, yes. I heard that part of the podcast
as well. The pretending No, no,that's a real a real Indian.
Yeah, but before that, I need myrandlett All right, go. This
morning at eight o'clock. Myphone goes like literally 759
I'm about to take the dog outfor a walk. I'm gonna NSC. It's
a 512 number. So it's an Austinnumber. I'm like, no, no, you're

(12:04):
too early. So I just send it tovoicemail. Come back in,
actually have a call scheduledat nine and say, oh, yeah, let
me check this voicemail.voicemail from Deputy Sheriff
Jack Barnes Travis Countyconcerning an urgent legal
matter calling back at thisnumber. And I'll be waiting for
your call.

Dave Jones (12:25):
Oh, no.

Adam Curry (12:26):
I'm like, Okay, I call back I get him on the
phone. Now, it's clearlySheriff's Office, just from the
the sound of it. And that'slegit. And then well, I mean,
I'm looking at a 512 number thenas a whole, I'm gonna put you on
with my lieutenant. SoLieutenant be Neil comes on
badge number 03156. There aretwo there's a warrant out for my

(12:50):
arrest, because I have failed toappear as a grand jury expert
witness. And I apparently signedon April 15. I signed the
subpoena that came to my door,and he has the numbers and
everything. And, and he says,you know, basically you can be
arrested? Yeah. Because youknow, there's a warrant out

(13:13):
because you have ignored thesubpoena. And you've ignored the
you're in contempt of court.And, and then a sudden, you
know, we get disconnected. So hecalls back. And then he
continues. And they said now, sothere's two ways you can handle
this. There's the criminalprocedure or the civil
procedure. I mean, this goes on,I'm like, holy crap. And my

(13:34):
heart is pounding. I'm like,what? There's

Dave Jones (13:36):
the you can there's an easy way and a hard way we
can do this is what he's Yes,

Adam Curry (13:40):
exactly. And it's like, I'm like, well, I should
probably call my lawyer. No, no,we have a maintain contact
order, which means we have tostay in contact with you as you
drive down to the sheriff'soffice. So we can process this.
And I'm likely, and so this isgoing on now. 10 minutes. I'm
like, holy moly. I'm racking mybrain. I can't figure this out.

(14:05):
And then he says, so what weneed you to do is you need to go
to this kiosk, and then you'regoing to pay a bond and then
you'll have a bar code and thenyou bring that data say Oh, hold
on a second. You got me. You gotme. I said I'm calling my
lawyer. No, you can't have Oh,okay. It was a scam. 15 minutes,
they had police radio in thebackground. And it was

(14:28):
sophisticated. They had myaddress my name, of course, my
phone number. It wassophisticated. Wow. I'm not
wanting to fall for something.But along the way, there are a
couple of things that started tobother me a little bit, but I
was just so blown. I mean, thisactually, I've been asked to be
a possible character witness fora friend in Dallas next week.

(14:52):
was like some bullcrap thing,but you know, so I've actually
I've had special agent show upat my door from the inn.
Inspector General's office and Isaid, I'm not talking to you go
away, you know, because, youknow, they're just harassing. So
that was kind of the back of mymind. I'm like, holy crap, what
are they doing to me? Is this adeep state? Finally, finally

(15:12):
they got me. They found Oh,wait, I have that somewhere.
Where is that?

Dave Jones (15:21):
Like, so that were they using? Were they using
generated voices or something?Or no,

Adam Curry (15:27):
no, no, no, no, it was it was actual it was actual
let me see is this it
there you go.

Dave Jones (15:38):
I mean, that was for real legit like that. So so this
were these were people that hadlike a believable Texas very

Adam Curry (15:45):
believable, very believable. The they had the
police radio in the background.It was totally I was in it. I
was like, oh, man, I'm screwed.

Dave Jones (15:58):
Up. You just knew that you were gonna have to go
buy $5,000 of iTunes gift cardwhen

Adam Curry (16:04):
it was when it was when you have to go to a kiosk.
Wait a minute, what is the USbusiness? No, no, no, no, no.
I'm calling my lawyer. No, youcan't. You. You have to what was
it? You must comply. I'm like, Icomply this. But, but hey, 12 to

(16:25):
15 minutes. They really have meDave. They really really have
me. That's kind of scary. It'ssocial engineering. You know,
it's, it was well done. They hada script and everything. This is

Dave Jones (16:40):
so I was in on a security. Like a webinar. Not
too long a webinar. Yes. Yes. Itwas great. And this guy's good.
He does. He's a local guy. GaryWarners has named me from UAB, a
University of Alabama inBirmingham. And he's, he's
really good. He's been in the inthe cybersecurity game forever.

(17:03):
And wait, before it was even athing really. And he he made a
statement in this last, like theannual update from last I think
it was in December. And he said,If you know he said it, is it if
you know, in your family or outor friends with or neighbors
with anybody who's older. Imean, I mean, like, like any

(17:27):
anybody who's let's just say,careful, be careful, careful,
careful. Identify generation,baby. They said baby boomer or
older. You're not baby yourgenetics.

Adam Curry (17:41):
You know, there's a big disagreement about this. I
believe I am Gen X 1964.September. There are some places
that say you're a boomer Tinakeep because she's definitely
Boomer because she's 1962. And Ijust remind her I was the face
of Generation X. You were

Dave Jones (18:00):
Yeah, I'm deaf. I'm definitely Gen X. You're You're
I think you're Gen X.

Adam Curry (18:06):
Well, I know. I'm Gen X, but there's disagreement
from some borderline boomers.

Dave Jones (18:12):
Are they on the council? Are they on the Gen X?
Boomer council that my wifeapparently Yes. You're one of
us. Don't try to deny. So but hesaid, you know, if you if you
know anybody whose baby boomeror older tell them about these
things, because they are atarget right now. Billions of

(18:33):
dollars is being milked fro

Adam Curry (18:35):
Yes. Oh, older people. I've actually helped
some people here. Who was goingto be Oh, yeah, no, it took them
to the bank and everything likeStop, stop, stop this payment.
Stop this stop that, you know,ah, sad. And we've we've had,
we've had we got a special thingcoming up in church for these
people. Oh, that's good. Becausethen the main thing is, in the,

(18:56):
you know, text messages, they'rethe you know, that's the big,
that's the big catch all so Igot a text message. So that must
be official. And what what theseguys got me with was the 512
area code that wassophisticated.

Dave Jones (19:10):
And in the end, the local accent and and, and, and

Adam Curry (19:13):
the police radio in the background. That was good.
And it was loud. You know, likethere was a dispatcher. That was
quite

Dave Jones (19:21):
well, let's see this. This is in 2023 total
losses reported by c three tothose over the age of 62. Up to
$3.4 billion.

Adam Curry (19:31):
Dude, it's a bigger industry than podcasting.

Dave Jones (19:38):
We're the wrong money with these guys.

Adam Curry (19:43):
We're in the wrong business.

Dave Jones (19:44):
Yeah, we should do how you it's it says tickets is
value for value. You give memoney and you don't go to jail.

Adam Curry (19:56):
You know, just kind of on that, on that tip. But
where everything's going, thestreamers are, are there. It's
all going down. It's happeningin real time right before our
eyes. We you know, so first ofall the recognition that no one
is watching television anymore.I mean, of course there's the

(20:18):
people watching obviouslyobviously some shows they'll
have millions of peoplewatching, but not 20 million.

Dave Jones (20:24):
Quick Adam, name me one television show that's on
broadcast television right now.

Adam Curry (20:31):
Now the only thing I would guess is NCSI but I don't
even know what the which oneSpecial Victims Unit I couldn't
know I can't name anything

Dave Jones (20:39):
at all six people in the last week that question not
one of them that name one you

Adam Curry (20:44):
know, this one, they say how do you go bankrupt
really slow and then it goesfast. All of a sudden this I
think we're in the going fastacceleration phase. And what's
happening now is the streamingcompanies who of course now you
know, now we got to showprofitability. It's not to say
that Netflix isn't successful.Netflix, arguably the earliest,
the quickest to the game. Andthey've pulled back on a lot of

(21:06):
their a lot of the money theywere putting into production.
And of course everyone's nowstarting with ads. Everybody has
an ad. So we've takenadvertising base television off
of cable primarily. Andremember, cable was brilliant,
because you got paid perhousehold. So if you just had a
channel on cable, this would AlGore he bought he bought and

(21:28):
sold the whatever I forget, itbecame AlJazeera I think I don't
know. Really? Yeah, if you arein a million households, you get
a million bucks a month. That'sjust because it minimum $1 ESPN,
which is still I think required.You're required to take ESPN by

(21:49):
most cable companies, they get$7 per subscriber per month off
of that cable bill goes to ESPNor slash Disney. So now the now
in so we unbundled everythingbasically pulled it all apart.
We got Disney over here. And wegot Paramount over here. And
we've got Hulu, which was kindof a sad bundling of television

(22:13):
shows. And now, well, I'm goingto go to the ditzes at Yahoo
Finance. two clips. The firstthe first one. The first one
shows you kind of the lay of theland. The second one I think is
actually the meat of what'shappening here.

Unknown (22:29):
Rebbes Lake Alliance has emerged in the intensifying
streaming wars, Disney andWarner Brothers discovery are
teaming up to release a brandnew streaming bundle later this
year. So what does this newpartnership mean for the
streaming landscape movingforward? We're looking at how to
navigate the big picture withthe Yahoo Finance playbook. And
we're joined by Ken Leon,Research Director of equity
research at CFRA and Jamielovingly, third bridge sector

(22:52):
analysts shaping them start withyou. You're here with us in
studio, I really

Adam Curry (22:55):
want to slap her but

Unknown (22:58):
man, I just keep getting like so amused by this
discussion, because it's likethis new innovation bundling,
which is cable. No,

Adam Curry (23:08):
it's not cable because these bundles don't get
paid per channel. That's nottrue finance lady PayPal

Unknown (23:13):
did right. But do you think that this is the way
forward? And is this going tobenefit the various parties who
are doing it?
It definitely is interestingdevelopment. And we're seeing
this increasingly in this space.One thing we've been hearing a
third bridge from the experts wespeak with just the fact that
what streamers are looking forways to not only drive growth,
but also manage churn is a hugeissue. Serial Turner's are one

(23:34):
of the things which all theseplatforms have to deal with his
people, either at the end oftheir show, they decided to
switch to a new platform at theend of a sports season, they
decide to just cut off thatservice. By having these
bundles, it's a new way thatthey can both drive longer term
customer value, but alsoshowcasing different types of
content, you know, with thematchup of a Hulu and a max and
it Disney plus, it really coversall the bases of genres and can

(23:56):
appeal to a lot of differentaudiences.

Adam Curry (23:58):
Okay, so a lot of blahdy blahdy blah, but the
whole point is, they're churningcereal churn, which is great
show title, actually, cerealchurn, because people are doing
exactly what we've heardeverybody say, Yeah, I just want
to see this one show. And thenI'll cancel the minute I sign up
and I pay my What is it now? Isit 17 $18, which is still pretty

(24:18):
high, but I'll pay that and thenif there's something else going
on, I'll catch it later. Now thesecond guy kind of lays out the
the real bones of this. I

Unknown (24:27):
think when you look at the bigger picture, it's really
a lot of these media companiestrying to figure out how can
they be profitable. So the firststep was reducing programming
and content spending. The secondwas de risking, because they
have no control really, of thecustomer. Unlike wireless, or

(24:47):
even cable TV decades ago, youhad one or two year contracts,
so churn is very high, they willnever release that. And also, if
you look at where Entertainmenthas moved to events to live
sports. So none of thesemanagement's will say that they
can get to a 20% operatingmargin on this business, nor a

(25:13):
50% EBIT, margin like wireless,so it's not a great business and
I think they're all de risking,they're reducing capital, and
they're gonna say, Gee, Netflixis a winner, large technology
companies can play here, whatcan we do for two things, one,
tried to grow subscribers and totry to get advertising revenue.

(25:36):
There

Adam Curry (25:36):
it is. So basically, we're going to see consolidation
Paramount is now being rippedapart, the all the parts are
going to be the actually theparts are worth more than the
than the whole. And the sum ofthe parts individually, it's
going to be ripped apart isgoing to be you know, typical
leveraged buyout. So you know,the strip all the assets, get

(25:59):
rid of Get out, get rid of allthe people with lots of firings
ahead, and there will be someofferings, but it's all going
advertiser base, the big draw ofNetflix and all these other
streamers was hey, man, I justpay a fee and I don't have to
deal with ads. It's all going tocome back. It's all gonna get
crappier. And yes, you will havestill have some big hit shows,

(26:23):
just like in the music businesswe have. We still have a Taylor
Swift and a Beyonce and there'san even there, I'm starting to
see some actual revenue issues.For Podcasting, value for value
is truly the only way to buildup your community. I don't care
if it's 100 people that it isthe only way forward at this

(26:46):
point. And the advertise andcertainly in podcasting, no,
it's just No, it's not workinganymore. Except for per inquiry.
I still like codes. If you getpaid on a code bond, Gino, I
still think that works with whatthey what we call a post read I

(27:07):
think that's still works. Andyou're nothing like a little
boost. Which was well that'sthat's a low baller. That's a
7772 Crayon. Yeah. That'scorrect. Yes, thank you. Thank
you, I'm gonna have to turn thatone off. So you guys are abusing
it. You should only be youshould only be using that just

(27:29):
to accentuate something with theharp. When you light up the
harp.

Dave Jones (27:34):
I see. I see Eric pap fixing bugs. So. Yes. And,
you know, you saw I didn't fullyunderstand what Spotify did with
that price floor change on

Adam Curry (27:51):
their bundling.

Dave Jones (27:53):
No, they said they said their Spotify Audience
Network span

Adam Curry (28:01):
lowered the worst name ever. As horrible. Really?
Did you just say spam what?We're just calling it spam. From
now on. We're just calling itspam. The

Dave Jones (28:13):
marketing jargon here was was virtually
impenetrable. But I think Ifigured it out. They said that
when it's all got to do withprogrammatic delivery, like you
know, stitching in the ad as youas you listen. And evidently
they call it a waterfall.

Adam Curry (28:32):
Yeah, where you're at the bottom drowning.

Dave Jones (28:37):
It's a waterfall where your foots in the drain.
Yeah. So they have there's likethree layers to this thing.
There's direct sale, or directbuy and then there's span the
span Spotify Audience Network,and then there's like
programmatic delivery I guessthat's like we don't have

(28:58):
anything else let's deliver aViagra ad or something needed
bottom of the barrel. Yeah, butbut the spec they said they
lowered the price floor on thespan part and I think what that
means is that the SpotifyAudience Network will take we'll

(29:18):
get more of the of the inventorydelivery.

Adam Curry (29:22):
Yeah, the the remnant the low level fruit the
not even fruit is dried up withdried up. It's like raisins,

Dave Jones (29:31):
in a way is raisins. Yeah, it'll win it'll win the
bid more often. So things arepulling from span more. And like
this. You know, we aren't we wealready have seen this
subscription stuff. That's,that's the only way to make
these things work. Theadvertising alone can't sustain

(29:54):
it. It's not everywhere you lookit's always which You know

Adam Curry (30:08):
not gonna last long kids use it sparingly.

Dave Jones (30:13):
But the I think we got our we ended up with a wrong
idea of the way that themonetization of all of this
stuff worked. Because we putyour Facebook and Google, which
dominated advertising in May,obviously makes make billions

(30:36):
and billions of dollars. And soI think it left us with this
idea that advertising is, isalways in everywhere going to be
a winning strategy for for, youknow, for revenue. But

Adam Curry (30:50):
it's not, but it's not no, it

Dave Jones (30:54):
only it's only a winning strategy if you are
essentially a monopoly in abusiness which Google is and
Facebook is. Facebook is, is ais a virtual I hate this. I hate
the term virtual monopoly. Yes,but they but you I think you
understand my meaning and theplayers within the social media
world. Facebook is as close to amonopoly as you're gonna get a

(31:18):
Twitter's a, that's a joke. Imean, it's an also ran. And it
Facebook, Facebook is the 900pound gorilla. Nobody even comes
close to second.

Adam Curry (31:28):
That's because they they're not really in brand
advertising there. They're likethe classifieds. You know, it's
like, and that's starting towane as well be you want, you
want some spam, you want somebots, go and put an ad on
Facebook. I mean, that'spodcasting

Dave Jones (31:41):
is the anti monopoly. Ooh,

Adam Curry (31:46):
like that is showing that. You

Dave Jones (31:48):
know what I mean? They're there. It's the
podcasting is by definition,anti monopoly because it is so
diverse. Nobody will everdominate. In this in this arena.
Even people who have largeaudiences, there still only one
show in a person's podcast app.That person also has, if a

(32:10):
person listens to doesn't matterif a person listens to three
hours of Joe Rogan a week. Thatperson also has 17 Other
subscriptions. Yeah. And it'snet, it is absolutely the anti
monopoly. And so there's no waythat advertising is going to
ever become the main player thatsupports podcasting. It's just

(32:31):
not. I mean, I mean, in order toprovide everybody with like,
livelihoods is not happening.

Adam Curry (32:39):
Well, in addition, in addition to that, we went
horribly wrong many, many yearsago in podcasting, I would like
to try and explain and this hascome up for me recently, as I am
realizing that the pitchpodcasting is making is pretty

(33:00):
much centered around a couplethings right now monetization
growing your show video. That'spretty much the pitch. And when
we first started, okay, so whenwe first started podcasting,
what was so common, I don't usethis word easily. What was so
awesome was you were hearingpeople who weren't professional

(33:26):
broadcasters, they didn't have aprofessional delivery.
Unfortunately, it was very hardto even get a semi professional
sound. And so somewhere alongthe line because and I tried it
was 10 years ago, I tried to getthe Kastmaster probe out there
and like we need to get peopleback into just sitting down

(33:47):
recording and then putting thatout and because we didn't have
real time processing basicallywe had musician gear you know
that we were that we hadrepurposed broadcast gear was
out of control expensive. Imean, the amount of rigs I have
built over the years with DB Xcompressor limiters with literal

(34:11):
racks with the what I have doneprocessing units 19 inch boards
everything because that was justtoo much for people to figure
out and and the sound qualitywas so poor without some of the
basics we resulted to thisformat where you record then you

(34:37):
or preferably you hire someonewho is then going to process
that check you chop out all thearms and the eyes and tighten up
spaces of now you Phil Spectorwith a wall of sound brighter
eyes, my big baggy as boys andwe became and we became
something that is just boringlike radio, you know, just we've

(34:58):
kind of reached we kind ofrecreate He did that. And we
never really got that. In fact,Dave Winer, I think he said,
This might have been aninterview he did. I'm thinking
James Cridland had thissomewhere. Weiner was concerned.
And it's a valid concern. He wasconcerned about me being kind of
the face of podcasting, becauseand I think there's something to

(35:20):
this, because people would hearme and think, Well, I can never
be that professional. Whereasthe idea that you can just be
someone who just records apodcast about your the topic,
that's your passion, about yourcommunity of interest about your
local community, about yourschool, your church, your your,

(35:42):
your soccer club, whatever itis. And that that will be Oh,
that's not a good podcast. And Ithink we actually that happened
to us, we got to that pointwhere, well, that's not a good
plug. And now it's even takingit one step further. If you
don't have headphones on withmics, and it doesn't say rode on
the boom, and you don't havevideo, you're not a podcast.

(36:03):
Yeah. And along with that comesa need because we have serial
churn, we have serial churn inthe hosting business. And as I
was listening, I've onlylistened to a little bit of pod
news weekly review, but as I waslistening about you know, the
the never ending conversation ofpurse first party data, bliss

(36:24):
and time statistics, etc. AJames and Sam both made valid
points that James says, Look,stats are very important because
that's kind of the only thingthat the new podcasts are has
that validates what they'redoing is okay, I see a download
from from Lithuania. And I'msure it's Dolby Das, his mom who

(36:46):
sit in there. And you know, Iwon't go into downloads. You
know, all these weird kind ofstats. Interestingly, now that
James has seen that, that his,the Buzzsprout, what does that
thing called?

Dave Jones (37:03):
Fan Mail fan mail, that

Adam Curry (37:05):
if he puts that if he incorporates that into a
show, all of Jacksonville,Florida will send him fan mail,
which is of course whatBuzzsprout is located. But the
idea that comments will be oneway totally valid. And then Sam
pipes him, but it was kind ofpoo pooed a little bit. But what
I have seen when you put someoneon value for value, and they see

(37:30):
Satoshis coming in the mail oneperson listening is exciting
because you every minute you seefive SATs go by I just had this
experience, a dear old friend ofmine, Vic Pepe, know from the
music business. He's been a bigIT guy now. He started a podcast
called 10,000 miles. And eventhough he knows me, and even

(37:50):
though I was number twointerview on his podcast, it was
all YouTube is all YouTube. Andyou know, he's got the camera
all set up. And everything ishe's done like nine episodes.
And he says, you know, what, doyou got any feedback? I said,
Yeah, turd, you're talking tothe pod father here. And so I
send them to blueberry to vid topod any and he gets it set up,

(38:14):
you know, a couple of hiccupsand stuff. But Mike Newman
actually very helpful. So hegets a set up, he puts it out
there. Its value for value. Andof course, I boost him
obviously, he's all jacked. He'scalling me like, I got gotten a
boost for me. But then he seesother people just listening, he
got a boost. He's like, how doesthis happen? It's amazing. So he

(38:36):
is so excited. Just and it's notabout the amount of money. It's
just the validation, which he'snot getting from YouTube, on
YouTube, you know, he's got like100 views, you know, 200 views,
my episode was more i I tweetedit a link or whatever. But in
general, it's just a, it's ahandful of views. And so when he

(38:57):
sees that coming in, he'sexcited. And I feel that podcast
hosting companies. Now, ofcourse, some notable exceptions
who were all in on this train,need to push that because that
is what's going to retain yourcustomer. That is the excitement
that people need. And I thinkit's great that you know, people

(39:19):
have magic, magic mix music,sound things and all that to
help people I think all of thatis fantastic. You know, but but
we need to maintain the ideathat just anybody can do it. You
stop with this pressure of OH,you can get out of $10,000 in
advertising. That's not going toretain anybody. It's
unobtainable, actually. And Ithink that we even and this kind

(39:45):
of gave me a thought that youknow, for for comments I hate
using the CAC term, but foractivity pub interactions, the
social interact as it'stechnically known Maybe that
should be something the hostingcompany should be pushing,
instead of relying on the appsto do all this work. That was

(40:07):
actually something James said. Ithink so too. And I caught
myself going. Yeah, you know, Ithink you're right there. I
think that's, that's a reallygood point we have, because of
the push we have made, becauseof the integrations we have
done, we actually got somethingto be done that people said
couldn't be done for a decadewas Apple actually did
something. Now, yeah, typicalApple fashion, you know, they do

(40:30):
it their own way. And you know,their shit don't stink, and
they're better with theirtranscripts for I don't care.
They linked to our namespace,and it's a validation of what
we're doing. I believe we canpush many more of these things.
Now, is it unthinkable that theywould allow you to connect a
wallet, etc. In the future? Idon't know. But I know that my
boy Vic is now pushing 2.0 appsbecause he loves it. He loves

(40:55):
the idea of seeing validationcome in. And his hosting company
is blueberry because blueberryallows that and he was able to
figure it out himself, you know,when he got a wallet and
everything was all set up.Beautiful. And but now and you
know, I pointed him towardsSaturn because Saturn relaunched
their stats for what is thatit's honestly your I keep

(41:19):
forgetting Saturn dot fly dot

Dave Jones (41:22):
Dev. Yet wonderful. You

Adam Curry (41:25):
are now it's horrible. You are I'll be out
contracts is still out there.And then of course for the more
advanced, you know, helipad. Andthe same goes for for life. You
know, this is the trend peoplelove listening to live, they
just love it. And you know, whatdo we have? I don't even know
what we have in the boardroomright now. It's like maybe what
20 People doesn't matter. It'sthat interaction. It's these

(41:47):
things that are going back andforth. It's full. If you and I
just did the show and hadnothing but stats and podcast
index dot social, I think it'dbe we'd be a lot less motivated.

Dave Jones (41:58):
Oh, for sure. Totally. I don't know what it is
about. Because Because you'reit's no different than just
looking at a spreadsheet. Like,if you get okay, it's it's the
difference between if we justtalking about purely financial I
mean, like there's, there's, Ithink there's a lot more to it.
It's a psychological thing morethan financial. But, but let's

(42:22):
just put it in financial terms,just for illustrations purposes.
If you if your company is doingif you just get a spreadsheet at
the end of the quarter, sayingwell, you just you know, you
made this much profit. I mean,that's great, but it's not what
you would call exciting.

Adam Curry (42:44):
Spread, but not sexy.

Dave Jones (42:47):
But if you're a bit if you're a sales guy, and
you're getting those commissionchecks every month, you that's a
different thing. There'ssomething about I don't know how
to explain some value

Adam Curry (43:00):
for value, I put this work into it, I got
something back.

Dave Jones (43:03):
And, but it's more like the I think the difference
with boosts and streaming setsis that you're getting pushed,
you're getting real timecommunication. It feels like
like if somebody turns whensomebody listens to your show.

(43:27):
Okay, here, here's a I think I'mzeroing in on this right now.
Okay, so when I listen to apodcast, I can't control the
show. You hit the play button.In your, in your now you've
turned yourself over to thehost. They're in control. You

(43:48):
are now just along for the ride.And you don't and it's there's
an excitement there becauseyou're not sure what's going to
happen next. Because you'reyou're relinquishing your
control. Yes, you've becomepassive. And you're experiencing
the the podcast. That value forvalue is streaming says flips

(44:10):
that back on the podcast or towhere now the podcaster is doing
the same thing. They'verelinquished control and they're
watching seeing things happen inreal time as these events come
back to them. Yeah, it's sort ofit's like the most pure two way
street. Because you're it'salmost like your your watch as

(44:31):
the podcaster you're watchingthis event happening the same
way your audience is, you know,I think so. I think it's it yes,
there's a financial aspect toit. And it's always nice to make
some to make some money and thatkind of thing. But like when
you're when that when the harptriggered a while ago. Yeah,

(44:53):
yeah, was it we didn't know thatwas gonna happen and it makes it
fun. Yeah, it makes the wholeexperience fun because you're
So, now you've engaged youraudience and they're able to
bring you on an on an unexpectedjourney that you can't control.
I think I think that's, I neverthought a bill I like like that.
That's a really cool idea. It's,

Adam Curry (45:13):
it's important because it, and I'm saying this
for our hosting companypartners, they're the most
stable part of the entireecosystem. And the, you know,
the amount of time and energymay be nothing for him, I don't
know, but what, what Buzzsproutput into the fan mail app, I
mean, I wish they would have putthat that energy into, you know,

(45:37):
a social interact, they'rethere. They're a big player,
when they do something, when infact, they were instrumental in
moving a lot of these things byadopting transcripts and
chapters and all these thingsearly on. And, you know, as one
goes, so go the rest. And then Ilove seeing the 2.0 native
companies. I mean, these guys, Ithink that there, if you look at

(46:00):
them on a pure profitabilityscale, they're probably out
doing percentage wise, biggercompanies, because it's, you
know, it's one guy, right, oneguy who can do everything, and
can still handle the relativelylow amount of, of customer
support. But they're reallypushing the envelope really
moving the needle on things. Isee what Sam was doing with true

(46:23):
fans, I mean, he's out ofcontrol. He's out of control, is
out of control, you sellingbooks, and there's all kinds of
stuff happening, which is great.I mean, it's beautiful. It's not
all quite, you know, there's nota lot of ecosystem behind him
yet. But he's worried

Dave Jones (46:37):
that it's madness. Yes, it's pure madness. But the

Adam Curry (46:41):
idea that you want to give somebody joy for just
being themselves, I'd like toget back to that. That's what
the podcast industrial complex,it kind of kind of clicked for
me. I was having a couple ofconversations with people. I'm
like, you know, what, where dowe go wrong with, you know,
here's, we kind of talked aboutthis last week, but radios main

(47:03):
function. And I've been in radiosince I was 15 years old with a
five watt transmitter in mylittle village south of
Amsterdam. Radio has always beena local medium. So whether it
was the kids in my neighborhoodgoing, Hey, man, I heard your
signal and my mom drove mearound the block to the closed
hospital radio station at thetulip Hospital in I'm still

(47:26):
Fein, where it was literally acaptured audience. They could
not leave. And we're basicallyjust playing requests for them
from their family, etc. Forpeople who are in the hospital

Dave Jones (47:37):
that has a really fun hobby. It

Adam Curry (47:39):
was great fun. To the pirate radio stations. Yeah,
we had 150 Watts, we were onlycovering Amsterdam, we called
ourselves the rhythm of theCapitol, you know that we were
just playing dance music, butreally for a dance oriented city
at the time. But to dizzy 100 inNew York, even though that was

(48:01):
you know, 50,000 watts at theEmpire State Building 50,000
Watts, you know, who did a flamethrower, who? New York. He was
still local radio. I was talkingabout the local events about the
mayor, you know, all thesethings that were local. Now

(48:23):
Elvis Duran, who I know reallywell. I've known Elvis when he
was still in radio and Austin inlike the in the late 90s. That
he became the morning guy in NewYork. It's 100. Of course,
everything got consolidate. Hewent to I think they've got
bought by I heart. And so he nowis the morning show guy in eight
cities, eight top markets. Andyeah, they've localized stuff,

(48:47):
you know, in between record.Hey, it's Elvis Duran in New
York. Hey, it's almost ran inHouston. Yeah, so they've
localized that, but it's nolonger local, and we've lost our
way in radio, and I'd like tobring that back. And now we have
all of that capability. In fact,I've been toying with the idea
of really just starting a localFredericksburg, a Fredericksburg

(49:09):
local show that and it should belive and I don't know if it's
every morning or whatever, butit needs to be live. It's a
podcast you can listen towhenever you want

Dave Jones (49:18):
to please do a morning show. For greater
Fredericksburg weather.

Adam Curry (49:26):
There's a lot going on in Fredericksburg and we only
have one weekly newspaper. Andit's very politically motivated
and it's very left which is youknow, contrary to a lot of live
around here. But it's

Dave Jones (49:41):
per se that pollen counts up to 2500. Today you'll
be careful out there. There's

Adam Curry (49:45):
a lot going on in Fredericksburg that is not
discussed that there is no endall the all the towns and cities
really have as a Facebook pagewhere everyone yells at each
other and is useless. So

Dave Jones (49:56):
college it just a local college

Adam Curry (50:00):
Thank you even just a local call in show. So I've
given myself the the edict tolift 1000 voices across America.
I haven't figured out what thatmeans yet, but I'm working on
it. Because and it's actuallyyou know, this guy, Fernando.
Hold on a second. Let me grabthis

Dave Jones (50:18):
fernet. Feta net, Fernando.

Adam Curry (50:23):
Fernando is Where'd that come from?

Dave Jones (50:29):
Did that come through?

Adam Curry (50:31):
What was that? Sorry. That's that was

Dave Jones (50:36):
the Bluetooth does work actually.

Adam Curry (50:39):
I was looking I don't think I put that into the
into helipad. Again,

Dave Jones (50:46):
I forgot that I looked up the road caster the
Bluetooth. Okay.

Adam Curry (50:51):
So he so he's a kid who he came to America from
Brazil with 100 bucks in hispocket. And, and so he has a
full time job. But he startedthis company audio sigma. Let me
see if I can find the audiosignal here. Sigma. Yeah, here

(51:13):
we go audio sigma.com. Andactually, Todd turned me on to
be and so you know, we got totalking. And so he's now built
this thing called, Oh, these arepretty Yeah, the pod mobile. And
it was all analog, basicallytransistor base. And now he's
done a DSP version. And he'sactually sent me one I haven't
tested and tested on his otherones. So here is a device that

(51:37):
is about 300 bucks. And itreally does everything it does
everything your road caster cando, but limited, you know, it,
it's for one or two mics it hasdoes have the loopback for your
computer, you can actually powerit from the computer doesn't
even have an external supply.But my point is, here's here's a
an entry level device, and maybeI have to do some courseware or

(51:58):
something. Thank you Sam Sethiand Dobby das for getting that
set up because now that nowthere's a way to do it to do
courseware to help people justuse your own voice to have a
good sound I just need people toyour sound just has to be good.
This device I've tested theseother ones of his there
dynamite. I mean, I said youshould be handing this out to

(52:19):
Ray Ray roving radio reporterscould you can clip it on your
belt, plug it into your phone,it sounds fantastic. But you
know, like we need to get backto that place and stop with the
it all has to be professional.It all has to sound big. It all
has to be perfectly you listen.I love James Cridland. The way

(52:44):
he speaks. I love hisimperfections. I know he's I
know he has a stutter. I lovethat. That that makes him a
human being to me. And he and hedoesn't edit it out and he could
easily do it but he doesn't. And

Dave Jones (52:58):
Todd, I love I love to deliver Todd has taught

Adam Curry (53:01):
us voice that is I mean, if you would go to a radio
station, they laugh you out ofthe building that voice No. But
that's what makes it sobeautiful. And we've had these
guys who do stuff live Todd andRob they do stuff live. And even
when they're boring me to death,I can listen to him live. It's

(53:23):
exciting. I can send a boost. Ican I can rag on him I can. This
is where we need to get back towith podcasting. And we need to
just take a breather on thisincessant non stop advertising
video. Got it? I mean, this iswhy no one's making money in
podcasting is because you allgotta hire an editor, Jan briny.

(53:44):
I love her DeVore I trained herI would say she does value for
value, but she gives away a lotof her value. Because she has
someone edit

Dave Jones (53:54):
for her. Yeah, that's, that's steep. Whereas
this, if

Adam Curry (53:59):
we just learned to be a little bit better, you
know, by doing it, go ahead andstumble and make mistakes. This
is this was the I have to creditmy ex wife with my ex ex wife my
first way when I was juststarting out 19 years old is on
television for the whole countryis doing radio, but the
television mainly, you know, andwe do the show was once a week,

(54:20):
half the country watch and we'dbe watching at home. And I'd be
I can't believe I flubbed that Ihate. Like I'm mad at myself
because I flubbed a word. Istumbled over something and she
would look at me and go, you'renot a robot that makes you
human. And then I took that toheart and ever since I've just
I've given up on it and and Ithink I've been pretty

(54:42):
successful in my career. Byleaving that stuff in

Dave Jones (54:49):
there, they send my daughter we had this exact
conversation with my daughterlast night so she's, she's in a
band. And she they had A gig atan art auction in this it was
basically like a just abackground gig for these high
high dollar art auctions at thislocal gallery. And people were

(55:13):
drinking and stuff and it washis her and four of her buddies
and they played the see theyplayed boozer made his base made
for walking

Adam Curry (55:22):
as Nancy Sinatra classic. Do

Dave Jones (55:27):
they play creep by Radiohead.

Adam Curry (55:30):
Creep I'm doing a little

Dave Jones (55:35):
they played well, what's the the Jets?

Adam Curry (55:42):
Nana nana nana da. Well, I found out that one

Dave Jones (55:49):
day didn't their dad and

Adam Curry (55:52):
dad. were sucking really bad now that 123 Take a
look at me. That's the one.

Dave Jones (56:01):
Yeah, yeah, I can't remember they played that one. I
can't remember the name escapesme. But they they played a nice
little set. And so after it'sover, she's like, you know,
she's like, Oh, I messed up. Mr.Fong crepe. I didn't. I didn't
come in at the right at theright. Part. And I was like,
we're like, you're, you're.That's that's the beauty here.

(56:22):
Are

Adam Curry (56:22):
you gonna be my girls language? Here we go.
Yeah. Yeah, who just hit us witha baller boost. Throw on a
second. Someone hits with theballer boost. Hello, phantom
power media. Dave, this isphantom power media. Hello,
Dave, tell your daughter toapply for our bands at Bitcoin
stage in July. It's an ad. It'sa native ad.

Dave Jones (56:46):
I will I will deliver this message

Adam Curry (56:53):
I'm gonna remove it. If you guys don't stop that.

Dave Jones (56:55):
Miss, she'll have to, she'll have to pay for cover
band or a cover music rights.Right? Mechanical

Adam Curry (57:01):
rights. Right? Yeah, if she does that one. Yeah. But,
you

Dave Jones (57:05):
know, we're telling her like, Hey, this is your
you're playing with a band,you've only been playing for the
band for a couple months. Thisis part of this is how you learn
by failing. Yes, you know, youlearn you, you you go out you.
Because that's another thingwith

Adam Curry (57:20):
auto channel. That's another thing that screwed
everything up. Oh, so

Dave Jones (57:24):
much giving up control, when that's another
time that you give up control.And that's one of the things
that makes playing live with aband. So exciting. Yes. And Eric
peepee literally said the exactsame thing. Same Time I Saw
that's what makes it exciting isthat you don't know what's going
to happen. And you're puttingyour own performance in the

(57:46):
hands of other people. Becausethe drummer may screw up. And
you know what, it's your job tosave that to save the drummer.
Yes. And everybody's in ittogether. play bass, play bass.
This band is kind of cool,because they all swap out and
play everything. Oh excheap Theone of the songs she plays drums
one song she plays guitar onceon that she plays bass. And they

(58:09):
all kind of like in betweensongs. They all shuffle. Which
makes it even more complicated.Of course, you're gonna miss
out. But good drummers now.Yeah, right. But anyway, that
now I think I think you'reright. I think the return to
load. Podcasting is perfect forlocal. Because yes, like

(58:30):
imagining that, that, especiallynow that we can do live over
podcast apps. I mean, that'sperfect. You. I'm just imagining
a return to that to yourhospital DJ. Yep, scenario where
it's like, you know, Hey, man,floor three Myrtle and room 302.
You know, we were here he is,you know,

Adam Curry (58:51):
did I ever tell you what we would do with when we
had a coup, we had our show onFriday night. And I was I was
the NG I was 15. I was theengineer. So what you do is you
go before the show started,you'd hand out request forms,
which are just pieces of paper.I was 15. So that's 45 years
ago. And, and they would fill itout. And then we take those back

(59:13):
and we'd start the show. But thestudio was in the corner of kind
of a an auditorium not huge, butyou know, where they would have
like small, like a bit like athree times a conference room
just put and the window. TheDouble Glass was right there. So
it was in the corner so youcould see people in the studio,

(59:34):
and the studio could see out. Sowhat we would do is we would
actually get the kids and wewould roll their beds down into
the auditorium. Oh, that's cool.And then but we were playing I
remember it well. Iggy Pop lustfor life. Remember that song? I
got a lust for life. A littlebit like the Jets actually. And

(59:55):
so while that was playing, wegot and we put we play bumper
beds with the kids we'd bebummed. The beds again. I
actually learned how to reinsertan IV from that experience,
like, crap. I can't come overhere. Like, we're not all over
the place. But yeah. And it wasarguably one of the most fun
times of my career and was,yeah, it was. It was unpaid. It

(01:00:19):
was a, you know, it's just avolunteer work. But yes, there's
local communities of interest,community, geographic
communities, but I think we'vecome the open, wide open
opportunity. And I'm going totell you something, I'm going to
prove this. If I even if I'm nothosting, if I'm just exec

(01:00:40):
producing, or whatever I amdoing because it's that's part
of my mission is I need to findnew people to do stuff. I think
it can be run, where it wouldpay for itself and that people
would, you know, maybe it's nota full time gig, but I think a
local community would support alocal station, a local, a local

(01:01:01):
show, I think it would supportthat it really would. Well,

Dave Jones (01:01:04):
you already did in a in the the now lost to history,
the last episode of podcasting2.0 That you did a you did a
request a music request show.And that was arena over boosts.

Adam Curry (01:01:22):
That was the most highly boosted episode ever.

Yeah, ever of all time. Yes. And this like so
there's no you now have in 2.0ABS you can now do live streams
and boosts and you can getthat's there you go. You have
you have a call in request showright there. So I think you
know, the other thing like is mydaughter, my oldest daughter,

(01:01:46):
she's 22. She you're the last toface her work show. Yeah, that's
right. We she's in she's incommunications, like, mass
communications. And so she wastold recently, basically, that I

(01:02:08):
forgot who this was no futurekid. It was almost like that.
She she's made. She's majoringcurrently in, in mass
communications. And the persontold her basically do not go
into do not think that you'regoing to go into local
television because it's dead.Oh, yeah, that's exactly what

(01:02:29):
you've been saying the lastcouple of weeks. He said local
local affiliates shutting downor shutting

down. You know, chat, if just the post in the
boardroom, you said you justdescribed homegrown hits. You've
never heard that show. It'sexactly right. Also, the no
agenda stream which is nowthat's been around so long that
that's really become its ownentity. And that is 24 hours a
day. But people literally tunein to hear Darren Oh, on

(01:02:55):
Thursdays and Sundays they tunein to hear nick the rat on
Wednesdays they tune the tuningin. Then you have in the smoker
you've got oh my goodness, beerswith buds, but you know, buds
with buds beard and smokingbuds. There's all these
different shows. And it's allwithin that same ecosystem of

(01:03:17):
very simple chat room, thebooster grams have become super
important. And it's not. It'snot that Darren O is retiring?
No, it's It's the feedbackmechanism is the hey man you
boosted cool, you see it in thechat room, the host responds to
it. This is stuff that thatactually will. That is working,
the proof is there. And we needa little more engagement, I

(01:03:41):
think from the hostingcompanies, not all and I'm not,
I'm generalizing to a hugedegree. And I'm also extremely
grateful with all the hostingcompanies have done so far. But
we can do more. And

I don't see why these local reporters for local
stations couldn't just strikeout on their own and do and do a
local oriented podcast. And

we'll see we'll see some of that. But a lot of that
a lot of that culture andattitude is not easy to break. I
mean, the idea that you're goingfrom we'll be right back after
these messages to begging formoney grifting you know, all the
stuff that gets thrown at yourhead. That's a very tough change
for most people. Now I wanted asa part of this since we have the

(01:04:24):
Phantom the Phantom people inthe nmpa National Music
Publishers Association sent avery damning letter to Spotify
and this is important thatpertains to us. And Jim actually
posted on podcast index socialabout this. They say let me see
where this is. It has come toour attention that Spotify

(01:04:47):
displays lyrics and reproducesand distributes music videos and
podcasts using musical workswithout the consent of or
compensation to the respectivepublisher and or administrators.
are members in Perkins, whocontrol the copyrights in the
musical compass compositions. Assuch, these uses of musical

(01:05:07):
works on the Spotify platformare not licensed or will soon
become unlicensed. So this isvery interesting. I'm not so
this is probably more aboutlyrics and the music videos, but
the fact that put podcasts inthere is important because
you're going to see podcastscome down very quickly from
Spotify. And a lot of thembecause people are using music

(01:05:32):
in in so many different waysthat is unlicensed, because you
literally can't license it fromfrom the traditional systems.
And Spotify will not thinktwice, it'll be hooked, gone,
quick, gone, hook gone hook,it's gonna be they're gonna be
running algos on it, it's goingto be gone, gone, gone. And even
if it's just mute, they're noteven going to check and see if

(01:05:54):
they if it's licensed, I justgoing to remove it. Big
opportunity. The main thing weneed to shore up and we have a
version of it, we don't haveeverything perfect. But I would
think we need to implement themusic license, the remote item
license, whatever we call it forinclusion of a bit of someone
else's work in your podcast, I'dlike the remote item licensed

(01:06:16):
better than a music license.That was the same thing. So this
this is not not I'm not talkingabout an RSS feed of songs. Now.
There's a whole bunch of issuesthat have come up that that we
need to discuss but purelyremote item. License. Yes, you
can use this under the value forvalue auspices. The it's been

(01:06:39):
written, it's out there, I thinkit just needs to be added to the
namespace and link so people caninclude it.

Is that the case? Honestly, no. So I feel so ill
equipped to deal with somethinglike this, that I feel like I
need somebody else to just giveme the wording to put

to put I'm gonna, I'm gonna carry this, I'm going
to carry this. I'm going tocarry this the

I think the lat to me where it fell off a cliff was
all of a sudden it took a turninto. Yeah, and we need to be
able to block certain apps frombeing able to play certain
music. And I was like, Whoa, Imean that

the Exactly. So the, the way I don't carry this Dave
and I will I'll get theconsensus and everything. So
there's a couple things one, Iin this is the main thing we
have to understand. If you havean RSS feed, and you have an
enclosure, and that enclosure isan mp3, there is no difference

(01:07:41):
between it being dry, dredScott's ISO, a feed, no agenda,
three and a half hour shows, ora three minute song. In the
world of podcasting, they areequal, ergo, therefore, if
you're going to like that, as mylawyer talk, you sound like a

(01:08:04):
philosopher is Raha ergo,therefore, the remote item
license is how I view this. Soit's not because it's a song.
Because I feel that what if Imake a great joke, or there's a
great a great bid, and someonewants to include that in their
show, just as valuable to me, assomeone who spent three years

(01:08:25):
writing a song, you may notthink that's fair, but in the
world that we're dealing with,they're equal. And so we need
the mechanism, if you're goingto include something in your
show, and it's in the realm ofvalue for value, you should be
able to say from this moment intime to this moment in time,
switch the wallets. It's comingfrom over there. And I think we

(01:08:49):
can add into that, a minimumrequirement. So you got to give
me minimum 50%. You know, of thevalue block, take more if you
want. I mean, I think that's andit's always all going to be
gentlemen's agreement, generalwoman's agreement, Gen Zers
agreement. But we need that at aminimum to protect ourselves.

(01:09:13):
Even though we're all going toget kicked off a Spotify and AB
it's all coming. This is why webuilt this Dave, because they
will not discriminate. You gotmusic and your podcast, you're
done goodbye. They're not goingto check. They don't care. They
got no infrastructure to see.It's just like YouTube, as you
know, like tick tock, it'd bemuted, all the all these

(01:09:33):
problems are coming, but we cansolidify for ourselves that we
have the agreement and we're allcool with each other.

So you think they're gonna start taking down stuff
that's not even guaranteed?There's not even related to
this, you know, an

example our church which I believe so our church
has a worship team, which as weall know, is Christian for band.
So they were worship teams. Andthe worst is

to drummer have the plexiglass you better believe
it?

Yes, you better believe it. Yeah, he's got the
cage. So the worship teamlicenses music, from you know,
there's a whole industry, and itputs the words up on the screen.
So everybody can sing holy,holy, holy, and hands in the
air, like, we just don't care.And it's license, they pay
rights. And those rights arealso for use in recordings on on

(01:10:28):
YouTube. And every month, atleast once YouTube takes down
one of the sermons because theysay you got to strike because
you use the license work, eventhough they have the right to
use it, they have the paperwork,it's backed up, it's, it's an
established system, which hasbeen going for decades, the
system still takes the wholething down. So that's going to

(01:10:50):
happen at Spotify now. It's justgoing to happen. So we need our
stuff to be tight. So that whencontent producers, whether they
make music or audio books, orwhatever it is, we need a system
that is fair, and and and andopen and everybody can

(01:11:12):
participate in. Hey, I made 100,I made 100 SATs on this. Here's
your ad.

So in and the license in the feed is a signal.
Yes, yes. This is this has thishas been covered.

Covered. Yeah, it's just it's just like Creative
Commons. Except, you know, we doit under this this particular
license. Now. I know that we'regoing to run into all kinds of
problems down the line anddisagreements, et cetera over
music itself. I can't deal withthat right now. All I can deal
with is the inclusion of aremote item. That part I want to

(01:11:52):
shore up so that when when theExodus takes place, people know
they can come here. They cancome into this ecosystem, and
they can promote the apps thatunderstand and do this and
promote the apps that give thepass the value through. We will
we will overcome may pleasingGrace

shall over.

We will we will. So remote item license is what I'm
looking at. Okay, remote, so youcan use this content no matter
what it is at as a remote item.Here's my here's my my baseline
requirement. And the technologyactually handles most of it. The

(01:12:39):
technology handle, you know ifit needs to be surfaced what
this is, you know, just likewhen I look at I'm at podcast
Guru, I look at the sidestreammusic podcast by the way, Cody's
a great great episode this weekwas music Tony Hawk screwed up
on and didn't put it in his inhis game. Really good as read
all the funny music. Yeah, it'svery first great promotion. I

(01:13:03):
can go on, I hit the V for V taband I see all the songs. I could
save those songs to a playlist,I could boost them separately, I
can play them separately, I canget into the arts and that that
stuff that technology, thatremote item Thank you Alec says
is taken care of, is taken careof all that is done. So our
stuff will be tight. So thatwhenever anybody thinks they're

(01:13:27):
gonna come and mess with us,they won't even come be that let
those guys play over there.They're not the real music
industry. Okay. Well, we'vewe've got, we've got some kind
of, you know, what, what is the

remote item license actually protect against

protects against nothing. It's an agreement the
EU. It's just like a CreativeCommons. If you really want to
take someone to court, you cancreate and I've, I've, I've
proven the Creative Commonscopyright works in court for
that very reason. But it stillcomes down to a basic

(01:14:04):
understanding and agreement likeeverything, it's only as good as
the paper it's written on.

And this is

this wood. It's not protecting against it really
doesn't protect you againstanything except someone using it
and not passing on any paymentto you. But we have no cops.
We're never gonna have cops togo out there. But you can say,
Hey, man, this is under theremote item license. So would

(01:14:33):
you please make sure that youput that into your feed
properly? That's really all thatyou can do in

that, so so it's a matter of if you're going to use
this, you need to use a remotevalue split.

Yes. And to answer cotton gins question. Yes, the
splits. The splits accomplishthis, but it's it gives you a
little bit of backup with alegal document and I think we
should have a minimumrequirement and the minimum
should always be baseline 5050.But as you can say, You know
what I'll I'll say I'll settlefor or do I want 90%? Now, can

(01:15:10):
you stop someone from doing it?No, you'd have to bring action
against them. But guess what?This isn't a world. This is
about just making it clear whatI'd like and what that I want
this system in play, it'ssolidifying, what splits are
it's solidifying what the remoteitem is? Yes, please use my

(01:15:31):
content in this manner. Here'sthe requirements that I have. If
you want protection code, ASCAP,BMI, sia EA

keeps you from built. I think I'm understanding
this now because it was just, Ithink, kind of what you're
saying is it keeps you fromhaving to build essentially the
exact same structure thatalready exists exactly. Again,
which which has which will havethe exact same problems as the
other system course. It'scentralized and, and punitive.

(01:16:05):
Yes.

Very punitive. Now, if you think you're gonna get
rich by anyone thinks they'regonna get rich, by all means,
don't have your music played onpodcast, don't get it played
anywhere, you know, put it intoiTunes and have fun. Good luck.
Absolutely. If you want to havean audience, and you want to
have value returned to you.That's why you're with us. Yeah,

(01:16:30):
there's not enough room in theworld for all the people to be
successful and making you know,quit your job money. Look at
this podcast 180 episodes notquitting any job. For sure, but
I love what I do and I love mytruck.

There's no there's not there's not a the Creator
middle class is just, it's nevergoing to be a thing. No. Well, I

don't think you can I think you know, touring I
think you can do a lot. Youknow, a lot of people have a lot
of love for what they do. Nodoubt about it. I mean, we're an
unrestrictive system where youknow, the traditional systems
are all that Why is everythingfailing because they no longer
control the distribution oncepodcasting came in distribution

(01:17:24):
was open Why does everybodywants to the move to YouTube why
because they control thedistribution move to Spotify,
because they control thedistribution they controlled it
but that's the way it's alwayswork and those days are just
oversee the billion dollarSpotify blue

at this, this actually sort of tend sort of
tangents into a kind of wantedto talk about that Jack Dorsey
interview. Did you read that? Idid. The one in pirate wire.

I did. I read the whole thing. You bet.

That he said this has some stuff in there. That
was pretty pretty noteworthy tome. I think they're all so let's
see. The you talking about this?It kind of reminded me of, of
him. He talked some about bluesky. He says, here's one thing

(01:18:24):
he said. He said what is theanti Twitter? He's talking
about? Blue Sky says what whathappened is people started
seeing blue skies, something torun to away from Twitter. It's
the thing that's not Twitter.Therefore, it's great. And blue
sky saw this exodus of peoplefrom Twitter show up. And it was

(01:18:47):
a very, very common crowd. Itwas designed to be controlled by
the people. But little by littlethey started asking J she's the
CEO. Yeah. And the team formoderation tools and to kick
people off. And unfortunately,they follow through with it.
Everything we wanted arounddecentralization, everything we
wanted, in terms of an opensource protocol suddenly became

(01:19:08):
a company with VCs and a board.That's not what I wanted. And
that's not what I intended tohelp create. Around the same
time I found noster. We don'tknow who the leader is. It's
like this anonymous Brazilianguy. It has no board, no company
behind it, no funding. It's atruly open protocol. The
development environment ismoving fast. I gave a bunch of
and I gave him a bunch of moneyto them. Okay, so that's, that's

(01:19:32):
the quote. And he seems to bedefining. I've got a few things
to say about this. But he seemsto be defining openness as a
protocol that is not backed byany company. To him it if it's
if it has a company and controlof it, it's not truly open.

I find that to be true. This is why I liked
Bitcoin no CEO. Right? This iswhy I like RSS no CEO. But

do you think that that's is that always the case,
though? And I'm gonna bring thisback around to what we're
talking about

tell you why I think it's always the case because
it's never been the case.Bitcoin Bitcoin was the first
for me, even though I've come toappreciate RSS equally when you
have something that is trulyjust a format or a protocol,
either way. And I and to adegree, I think activity Pub is

(01:20:35):
that as well. These are thethings that are being
implemented and used by peoplebecause they can, because they
don't need to pay a developerfee or do any of this stuff.
Anybody can do it. That was Thatwas always the the idea behind
RSS and you people will come tome, man now. So do you have your
own plane? We're talking aboutGod, you invented RSS. You

(01:21:01):
invented podcast, and then apodcast to bro, if we had done
that it would have gone nowhere.No one would be using it. The
whole point is that it just is.It just is.

And now and when you're talking and he started,
he started talking aboutlicensing fees, and these guys,
NAD that's understand that. Butis like blue sky doesn't have
Hold on.

I didn't talk about a licensing fee. But you mean in
regards to the music stuff?

No, no, I'm talking, you said, you know, royalty like
fees for implementation. Andlike developer

like API access developer, you have to toolkit
and all this kind of stuff. But

that's see that's in that's where I'm, that's, that's
the interesting issue here isblue sky is a published
protocol. You can implement ityourself just like you can
activity pub. It's a it's justan it's an open specification.
And in that sense, it's nodifferent than noster. You know,

(01:22:05):
but he has, he's saying he has aproblem with it.

Okay, well, can we separate a couple of things
because I also see stuff in theboardroom being discussed.
There's a difference between aprotocol and the implementation.
So when I say activity piledright away, yeah, but there's
all kinds of lib tardes areMastodon Mastodon is not
activity, pub nostre. The SocialNetwork is not Nasir the

(01:22:32):
protocol to see the the themistake, the big mistake of
nostre was the social network.Because only people in this
boardroom and not everybody evenunderstand that there's more to
that than the implementation. Sothe implementation of RSS was

(01:22:55):
initially only blogs. I think ifyou say RSS people still think
blogs, they don't thinkpodcasts, they certainly don't
think music distribution, oraudio books, or courseware, or
any of that stuff. If that's thehardest thing we're doing right
now is we're we're moving peopleaway from thinking this is just
for blogs, we're just forpodcasting. And this can be for

(01:23:19):
all kinds of distribution.That's the hardest thing we're
doing.

See, okay, so he says to backup at the second he
says, he says in another prices.So what if we created a team
that was independent to us, he'stalking about when he was at
Twitter that built a protocolthat Twitter could use and then
build on top of, then we wouldwouldn't have the same
liabilities because the protocolwould be an open standard, like

(01:23:47):
HTTP or SMTP. Twitter wouldbecome the interface and we can
build valuable business bycompeting to be the best view on
top of this massive corpus ofconversation that's happening in
real time. And, you know, hesays, he says, I know it's early
and noster is weird and hard touse. But if you truly believe in
censorship, resistance and freespeech, you have to use

(01:24:08):
technologies that actuallyenable them to change arise,
blah, blah, blah, because these,those are technologies, no
company or government cancompromise. The corporations can
be compromised, and they havebeen, I

think there's a difference between Okay, let me
take mercy because I hear whatyou're saying. I hear what he's
saying. And I think he'sincorrect in some things. I do
to Twitter started as an RSSbased system. Where and that's
why that failed all the time,because they tried to centralize

(01:24:40):
RSS, where if they came out ofMike, the first term was
microblogging. So we all hadblogs. And it was kind of a
groovy system, because we had aproduct called Google Reader,
but there are many others. Andwhen that never got to flourish
that business online Likepodcast apps that enable that

(01:25:03):
that created the product out ofthe protocol. Dorsey is
interspersing, the censorshipresistant nature of a protocol
that allows you to communicatewith social media, which is a
shit product. Yes, that's theproblem. Social media is a
horrible product. It's ahorrible product. I can't put it

(01:25:27):
any other. Now. You takeactivity pub in the context of a
reasonably close system, likepodcasts index dot social, it's
an okay product. And I have anaccount, just podcast index dot
social, and I have ad serverlevel have blocked certain
instances. And from time to timeI go through it and go nope,

(01:25:48):
nope, I go to the publictimeline. Nope. Because I
protect our community. So itactually functions as a
reasonable product for for themission that we have. But are we
really doing social media there?No. In fact, I've asked some
people I said, Hey, could younot post that here? Because

(01:26:09):
that's just going to create awhole conversation that has
nothing to do with what we'redoing here. It's

more in podcasting index dot social is more like
just a big version of GitHubdiscussions. Yeah, yeah. Oh,

yeah. A little less stringent, I think but yeah,

it's very, it's just so hyper specific to one to kind
of one topic that it keeps someof the and and your moderation
on the back end. Keep some ofthat away.

So what Dorsey's mistake is, in my opinion, this
he is equating free speech andcensorship resistant speech with
a social network. No, the hardNo, because it's not it's a crap
show, as people arguing, then,you know, it's like comments,

(01:26:56):
comments, depending on how youon how they're displayed, even
that determines the product ofsomething that can be censorship
resistant. So podcasting iscensorship resistant. And it's
but it's very different. And youcan use RSS for a social
network, the see what Twitterdid in the beginning, but that's

(01:27:18):
a crap product. Podcasting is apodcast apps are outstanding
product, people like them.People use them. Wherever you
get your podcast, it's a greatdistribution mechanism. So we
have to, we have to make adistinction between the protocol
and the product. Whoo, there yougo.

Yeah. Well, I think I think and I think that's, I
think that's where I'mstruggling with what he's saying
and where I disagree with him isyou can have, you can have open
protocols that are developed byprivate companies. I mean,
that's just the protocol itself.I mean, it's take the iTunes

(01:28:01):
namespace was open, we're allallowed to use it. It's not like
the it's not like the USBC.Right, but you can't get one
kangaroo.

But it holds everybody back. Because I like
the podcast namespace. Wherethere's no, there's no, there's
no other incentive other thanjust to keep the servers
running. Yeah, and no one. Well,I guess, technically, it's all
it's only as good as the peoplebut when you have a corporation,

(01:28:32):
corporations have boards,corporations have targets
corporations have to make moneycorporations have a reason for
existence, podcast index, dotLLC podcast index, LLC, that has
one mission to make itselfunnecessary, to destroy, destroy
itself. That is that is ourultimate mission. In the

(01:28:53):
meantime, keep everythingrunning, but have a backstop. So
if we all keel over, then theservers keep running on AutoPay,
etc. But the mission is to makeourselves obsolete. And I think
we stated that clearly. With allthese, all these censorship
resistant things, which protectus mainly from corporate

(01:29:13):
corporate from the corporateworld.

They said because, okay, he says, He's talking
about Blue Sky says it was theanti Twitter. And he's talking
about how why he left blueskies. So he deleted his
account. He left blue sky. Hesays it was the anti Twitter
people were literally runningfrom Twitter to blue sky. And
that's not a way to buildsomething successful, sir. So he
says,

but they weren't running from they weren't
running away from Twitter toblue sky, the protocol. They
were running to the product,blue sky product. Yeah.

And so he talks about surviving. And this is
where it this is what really,this is where I'm bringing it
back around a little bit becausehe says, he says, All that said,
I really respect J she's theblue sky. As CEO, she was under
a lot of pressure to survive.Yeah. And he's talking about,

(01:30:07):
you know, when they starteddoing moderation and this kind
of thing. It it's like he says,he says it's such a crazy thing.
It seems like the coreleadership team at Twitter
around you was just told this isthe question the the guy asking
Dorsey the question. He says itseems like the core leadership
team at Twitter around you wasjust totally opposed to elements

(01:30:30):
throughout the company from thesales team to the board. It's
almost as if the company werefundamentally in conflict with
itself. He says it was alsopretty reactive to what was
happening the world well,

because sent to be censorship resistant, there has
to be zero financial incentive.And by definition, if you have a
company, you're going to havefinancial incentive one way or
the other.

And, and I want this idea, he said that she was under
a lot of pressure to survive asa company. I think you said it
fine, earlier. But I mean, justto state it more clearly. Let's
set a goal to never try tosurvive as a company.

No, we actually our goal is to destroy ourselves
that yeah, that's even better.That's the best goal ever.

If podcast index dies, they just dies. I was

talking to someone today. And you know, who want to
use the podcasts index as a backend? And which, you know, a lot
of a lot of people in thisboardroom do. And I think
because there's a relationship,and there's several years of
history, now, people know what,you know, know, us know, how we

(01:31:46):
operate, know what we do andwhat we don't do. And they trust
us, there's a trust, there's ahuge trust factor there. And I
don't think we've ever violatedthat trust. And I don't know,
there's just that we're just,we're good guys, now. But
someone from the outside says,hey, you know, so what happens?
If podcasts index goes away,there goes my business, because

(01:32:08):
I'm trusting that to be the backend. And I always say, Well, let
me tell you, first of all, wehave $28,000 in cash in the
bank, and that money is on autopay than that. And you know, it
costs real money to keepeverything running every single
day, every single month. Andwe're expanding, and we'll need

(01:32:30):
more over time. But in general,we think three to five years,
this, if we got no, if the moneystopped today, we could have
three to five years, it wouldcontinue, there'd be no extra
development, et cetera. But thatwould be it. Dave and Adam,
don't take any of that money forpersonal use. But I said within
that three to five years, wehope that there's just an index

(01:32:54):
space is just out there, thenand you don't have to rely on
us, it will be just like, Tor,you know, or hash space, or
whatever it is, it will be, itwill just be the way to get in,
there will be will be the way toget it out will be and this is
what things like pod ping andactivity pub and we're figuring

(01:33:14):
all this out and things willknow it's our mission, it's our
ultimate mission to makeourselves obsolete. So
podcasting will just be it won'tbe a place where accompany it
will be podcasting. It's justthere, tap in

it, to podcasts and to 1.2 point oh will survive
because it doesn't need anymoney. Right? The indexes,
podcasts index does need money.And if and if the market
determines it should die, then

it'll die. That's fine. It's not gonna, it's not
gonna. And

here's why. And here's what happens that the day
that the day that that doeshappen, I cut everything down to
the bone. We can run, we can runjust we can run core services
for about $300 a month. And, youknow, with with, with

restricted restrictions on API access, I'm

sure right, yeah. And that'll and that'll take
along for a long time. Maybe

we just put out a database every week. I don't
know. It could be any number ofthings. We could

do that for I could do that paying for it myself out
of my own wallet. So the unknownI'm not worried about that the
it's just we're you know tryingto survive as a company and like
Keep it keep yourself fromdying. I mean, that's where all
the bad stuff starts. You know,that's that's yeah, that's where

(01:34:41):
things start to always go wrong.Yes,

that's exactly right. It's always goes wrong.
Yeah,

so I'm just like, you know, the world the world
moves on things go away. So ifwe are you know, if for some
reason, the the economy justcompletely The tanked and
everybody's in the funding forthe index data. This one we'll
move on. But, you know, he, hesaid something else about brand
advertising. He said, But thisis this. I do agree with him. He

(01:35:13):
says, I think the core criticalsin was choosing the advertising
model to begin with brandadvertising is not like direct
advertisements, right, which ismore programmatic. It requires
something like a Disney toessentially do you a favor,
because the only because theonly players that matter to them
are Google and Facebook,Snapchat, Twitter, everything

(01:35:35):
else doesn't matter. And theseare ads, they're essentially
throw away money for them. Butwe made that choice in order to
go public. Yeah,

that's right. These are and that was to satisfy the
initial investors and you go allthe way back up the chain.

He said, we needed a model, Facebook's model was
really good. So we came up withan ad program and ran with it.
And I came back to the company ayear after the IPO, and we were
seeing a decline in growth. Andthat manifested in the decline
in ad revenue. So our firstfocus was to rework the product.
So we were growing again. Andthen second was to get off this

(01:36:12):
dependency on advertisement. Andwhen you're entirely dependent
on that, if a brand like Procterand Gamble, or Unilever doesn't
like what's happening on yourplatform, you're totally
threatened to pull the budgetwith accounts, which accounts
for like 20% of your revenue,you have no choice. Yeah,

in that interview, he also says that it was easy
for Elon to fire half thecompany, because half the
company was in sales. You know,and all and trust me when I say
that the largest militarycontractor in the world, Elon
Musk, because that's what he islooking at his real businesses.
His mission is not to give youfreedom of speech is just the

(01:36:49):
cost of doing business for him.By the way, he's giving you
freedom of speech, not freedomof reach. That's also in that
article, which is true. And Isee that all the time. Hey, no,
no, I get no numbers on thispost. You know, okay, fine. I
wonder why. All he's doing ismaking sure there's enough
excitement and action around xto keep everybody engaged as he

(01:37:14):
rolls out. His Kwazii podcastinginfrastructure is make money on
your writing infrastructure. Sohe's trying to be substack. He's
trying to be trying to bePatreon, but not really not
really with subscriptions. Buthe'll roll that out. And it all
comes down to he wants to beyour bank. He's got 38 Money

(01:37:35):
transmitter licenses, he'll havethem all. And if there's not
enough action around his hisx.com, he'll post something
outrageous to start up again. Hejust needs to keep everybody
engaged and on Twitter all thetime, until he has everything
rolled out so he can be yourbank. That's it. That's it. He
wants to be your bank.

It here's the quote you were talking about. He says
it was a brand advertisingbusiness and a brand advertising
business needs a huge salesstaff. Over 50 to 60% of Twitter
employees were in sales. Yeah,

there you go. There you go. But, but But make no
mistake, this is not about Ilantrying to give you freedom of
speech. No, no, no, no. By theway, can I just do a quick
namespace thing here? Oh, yeah,sure. Well, I'm not going to
play the jingle. Leslie Lesliehas been emailing me. We got a
long distance dedication fromLesley Lesley says that she is

(01:38:37):
working on audio books. And shehas a request for the season
tag. Which I thought was quitereasonable. Because I'm like,
Oh, by the way we updatedseason, we got season taxes.
Yeah, but it's not enough. Iwill quote from her
correspondence with me. I knowthat most hosting companies
support season numbers. But whatwould also be helpful is if we

(01:39:01):
could get a season level art andtitles. Oh, she says I think
that would be a great help foraudio books. And maybe even for
musicians, as they could putmultiple works out as seasons
within a single feed anddistinguish between them, rather
than having separate feeds foreach.

I think that's a neat idea.

I think it's an interesting way to look at it.
And we were just because shesays you know, I can't afford to
have a new RSS feed for everysingle audiobook. So you gotta

get people to subscribe to. Yeah. Because that
should just be an attribute onthe optional attributes,

optional attributes. So optional image and title I
think is what she's specificallyasking for. And I said we
already have titles and titleswe have but she wants art. Do we
have because I looked at it. Areyou sure we have title?

We have name you can name a season or you can name a
season. Like as names. Let me goto the GitHub brief thoughts on
point o season man

that James Kerguelen his podcast namespace.org Sure
pops up at the top of the OGSnow I liked that let me see
because I have season

it's the name attribute.

Okay let me see

in the examples like podcast season Yeah,

yeah yeah name equals yes name. So episode art

Yes. So we just need an image URL attribute and

hosting companies apparently are still only
offering the old iTunesnamespace I guess the number the
season yeah for the seasonnumber but the people want names
and name title and image

so I think we shouldn't want it to get against
people what they will go on itthere's

a customer to customer customer waiting for
you right there. Podcasting 2.0podcast we deliver customers to
you. You're gonna play a song.Oh yeah, let's do that right
now.

Thank you for reminding write this up as a as
an issue on GitHub while you'replaying while I'm playing the
song.

Okay, good. I think I got this one from either the
Phantom music power hour I gotit from the side street music
podcast another banger for aFriday everybody Tony Salamone
with red light of podcastinglive

Unknown (01:41:25):
on offense to the sky affair face first into the
concrete.

(01:42:20):
Logging into my brain
changed and shaped?

(01:43:40):
Supernatural it's
the days Baby

Tony Salamone red lights podcasting. 2.0 if you
boost if you didn't boost goback, rewind boost. Tell him you
heard it on podcasting. 2.0That's a good one. That's a
great song. I love that track.

Add an image href attribute to the season tag for
SC Have

you got it in? Alright, you nailed it, I

get it in, I got it. That's

how we write one song. And we've updated the
namespace Beautiful. Beautiful,beautiful, beautiful. I love it.
Cool. Good. Anything else forthe board meeting here?

I got some stuff that we can wait. We always push

every now next week, there's no board meeting because
I'm on the road. I can't do itnext week. So that's true that I
need to do is I'd rather go longtoday. And then

that's alright, I've got I didn't get much
accomplished this week, I'dplanned on getting the resolver
built for the I didn't get muchof a chance to code this week.
But I want to get the that weneed a resolver for translating

(01:45:51):
a key send addresses? Oh, youknow, so that you can look up
like, David Get out b.com andconvert it back to a to a note
Id we need that. But I want tomake it where apps like cast
ematic can just send one requestfor a whole bunch of addresses,

(01:46:13):
you know, and like we do theresolution for it. You could you
could just do send off like 10of these addresses, we would
resolve them back in one call.Yeah. And do the caching and all
that nice. Nice. I want to makethat easy for everybody for
lists. Yeah, apps. Yeah. Butbefore we put cuz I want to get

(01:46:36):
that key send address thing intothe value recipient tag on June
1. But I don't. But I don't wantto do it without giving the
serverless apps a fallback? Yes,as we always do. So so that's
the next thing on my list. Andwe'll talk about that. Okay,
I'll get it done while whileyou're

gone two weeks. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sorry,
everybody. And Alex is working

on a top secret project for us. So. Yeah. Put
for pod payments.

Do you put them under NDA? Indie. So we can't
talk about it. So we can't talkabout it. And yeah, it'd be fun,

but sign the document. Here, Alex on this. I
know what

you'd say sign this. Yes. I was just as I was playing
that song. I'm just I'm justlike jamming out to the song. I
remember because the lastepisode, when you lost power at
the office, and I played tracksfor two or three hours. That was
more fun. I had just becausewe've been talking about I've
been reminiscing My mind hasbeen going back and forth in

(01:47:44):
history. That was more fun. Forme as a music disc jockey than
any shift I ever did on Z 100The biggest radio station in New
York at the time. In fact, Iwasn't. Why because I was almost
it was like it was lonely. Youknow, you're just talking into
Mica. Hey, I live in New York.But there's nothing coming back.

(01:48:06):
There was no there was no chatroom. There was no booster grams
there was you know, we hadrequests and so on the back
would take a request and wasn'treally a request anyway. We just
pretend to like yeah, okay,this, this is what's next in the
computer. So we're playing this.

You don't even have Buzzsprout fan mail.

Let's, let's thank a few people, shall we? Let's use
our own fan mail here. We havelots of live booths that came in
3438 from Billy Bones. saysthank you for the boardroom
meetings. It makes me excitedfor podcasting. 2.0 Well, you're
welcome. And you're a part ofit. Billy Bones. We're all part
of the Billy Graham anonymous3333 We got Mike Dell 1701

(01:48:48):
hamvention booths from DaytonOhio. 70 threes, keto eight Lima
Mike Juliet at the hamventionforgot all about that. Yes, 73
is kilo five Alpha CharlieCharlie beaconing every 15
minutes on bar ac 20 meters. Wegot the heartburn we got the 777
from Sam Sethi. True fans hasthe remote item license working

(01:49:12):
for example. She does forexample, we have it working for
all phantom power music artists.We have plans to use it with
clips next so you grant alicense for other podcasts to
use your audio in anotherpodcast and get paid like music.
Beautiful Sam. Thank you let'slet's can we can you post
somewhere short. Just todocument how that how that

(01:49:34):
showed up like hub that pops upso other apps can see it. That
would be great. This is perfect.See, I told you I would carry
this it's so easy. The work isdone for me. Done. Shred word
part of the dorsal verse 1000SATs genuine variety and organic
goodness is King not perfectionand sounding like everybody
else. We call it here in theDorko verse Nashville called

(01:49:57):
when you stick to the templateAmen brother

That's right is that the is like the NAM when you're
Nashville Nashville sound when

you're perfect. Last night, this is another another
writing on the wall. So we weregoing to tune in to our favorite
show. Cheers. We're on seasonnine, we're almost done.

Oh, you're close.

We've been binging. And so I pop open, because you
know, you can get it onParamount plus through Amazon,
whatever. And right at the top,oh, there's the American Country
Music Awards. Live on Amazon. Sowe pop it, you know, it's like,
okay. And it was justuncomfortable to watch. It was

(01:50:39):
so because it's so like,structured and you know, they
have ads, of course. And so it'sall tight on a timeline. It's
unnatural. You know, I love RebaMcIntyre. But, you know, she's
hosting again. And you know, andit's just, it's they're trying
to make this tight, tight show.And it's this, this, you know,

(01:51:00):
robotic, doesn't feel likepodcasting where it's crazy to
control.

You know, I hear songs. Sometimes I'll ever and
honestly Taylor Swift's catalogis like this. You just know that
in five years minimum AI will beable to recreate songs this
dinner just exactly like that.They sound no different. They're

(01:51:26):
just like, like vacuous.Couldn't

do it already. You can do it already. And there's
no love. There's no soul. It'ssoulless. Yeah,

there's, do you know what's, you know? What is it?
Well, so we've been rewatching XFiles.

Yeah, yes. You're done with the with the musicals.
You're onto X Files now.

Now we're intermixing we're mixing it up.
Now. We've heard we've beenwatching musicals too. But do
you know what's great aboutthose old shows from 80s 90s?
You don't see any computersanywhere?

It's all analog.

That's right people people's desks have like pens
and paper and a phone

Sam Sam Malone in cheers has a little black book
with all those babes all thosebabes in it? Yes.

All the babes so true.

It's awesome. Blueberry 77 777 member berry
booths for Dave Oh, then we hadthe phantom power media 10,000
SATs we read that one Dave tellyour daughter to apply for bands
at Bitcoin stage in July. Goodidea. Eric peepee was sent the
boob boost which did comethrough 808 CELTA Crayon 777.

(01:52:39):
Howdy boardroom Dave don't getme started on docking station
firmware. Weekly we are updatingthose because they are well past
the 12 month mark. TheThunderbolt ones are the worst
culprit so far job security,right go podcast and contests.
We love job security as a chat Fwith his 777 boosts and I hit

(01:53:01):
the delimiter There we go. Oh,

we got a new subscriber $10 a month from
Timothy voice well then

haven't used that one in a while. You've been deep
fried

midribs kid right?

Yes it is.

That's a little drip this dribbling. We got a Z
that's our only one off Pay Palthis week but we guess boosts
get Steve Wilkinson aka CGworks. striper boost 7777
through cast ematic skilletboost. Maybe we can get a John

(01:53:38):
Cooper screen skillet

boost. That's our semi striper boost. Yes. Okay.

We got Andrew Gromit. No 2222 Road ducks hello
and wherever app nice this topsecret app I've

ever tried that thing out. It's amazing. It's
basically wherever Yes,basically a framework of every
everything that we have inpodcasting. 2.0 just smashed
into one web app.

We're gonna get him on the show, do you? Yes, of
course.

Of course. Of course. Andrew, you're up, bro.
You're up. You're on. You'regonna be on the show. I can't
wait to catch up with him. Ican't wait. We got some we got
stories a bit. You hear storiesthat I have forgotten? No. In
fact, I guarantee you he hasstories that I've forgotten.
That'll be a good one. Let's gethim on.

Okay, we got Andrew Andrews on deck. He says he says
this rocks heard on Podcast,episode 179.

Yes. And Andrew Thank you. He's got everything
set. You know, the wherever appbooths come through, and I can
see what song it was for and Ithink he I don't know that that
yeah, has the reply functionworking which is great. I love
that too. I love replying toboost i Every morning I come and
say oh, can I reply to this? Oh,can I reply and because it's

(01:54:59):
split Usually I'm sending peopleback more than I received.

You're losing money.

I'm losing money on it, but I love it.

To 237 That is the number of unread emails I have
in my podcast index mailbox. All

right, I'm plugging along, brother. I'm taking care
of most of them when I can. Oh,yeah.

I'll say Jacob J, K, ob 1234. Booths through pod
verse, he says, great tunes.Thank you, Jake. By

the way, the the update ability of the dashboard.
Now the control dashboard isgreat, because now I can change
someone's Feed URL

that's working for you. Yes,

yes. And now, if the if the feed is already in there
double, you have to resolve thatfirst. I've even done a couple
of successful merges, which didmy head and well did my head and
because I'm like, What's merginginto what you know, like, I'm
merging the wrong way. Oh,restore, reset. Okay. merge them
back the other way. All right.There we go. Undo Ctrl Z. is

(01:56:10):
great. I'm able to I'm actuallyable to do a lot for people. So
I feel quite powerful with thecapabilities I have.

It will I'll continue to refine that. It's
still rough.

Give me Give me root access. Give me RM dash RF.
Yeah, I don't I've actually donethat. No, yes. Back what own
what folder? Okay, back in theonramp days now. Something
similar. Here's what I did.

So wait, they get tilde dummy. Somebody in onramp
gave you root access toanything?

Oh, yeah. No, I had root access to everything. So we
had a son with a Unison fivemaybe. Spark station. Spark
station. Yeah. And Neuromancerwas the machines name, I
remember it well. And so therewas a ragtag, we had like one
client, and we were just tryingto do stuff. And, and, you know,

(01:57:03):
I was trying to figure somethingout. And so I go in, and I'm on
the machine, right? So I haveroot access on the machine, that
I'm seeing all these errorsbeing thrown. And I'm like,
well, there's something wronghere with this sh. So why don't
just RMS H for a second Iremoved the shell. Nice. was

(01:57:29):
interesting how we brought thatback to life. That was my that
was my big aha moment. Oh, don'tgive me that access anymore. I

used to work at an insurance brokerage in it. And
we ran a big as 400 system. Thisis a this is 1000. Person.
Company. Yes. 400. Man classic.Millions and millions and
millions of dollars of insurancepremiums going through this
company. And then all the nighteverything ran as a batch job as

(01:58:04):
400 to print all the debt, allthe premium notices and all this
kind of stuff. The COBOL we doin COBOL? No is RPG? Yeah, is
the native language on is 400.So it was said the we had a new
guy in it. And he he was just hejust needed a job. Like he had

(01:58:25):
an history degree like he didn'tknow hardly anything about about
anything with computers. Andthey hired him. And then like a
week later, all the all the MISpeople you know, it used to be a
separate department in my es miYes, yes. Yeah, of course, all
the MIS people were like, nobodywanted to stay the regular night

(01:58:46):
operator guy was off and none ofthem wanted to stay late. So
they're like, hey, we'll justgive this this guy with a
history degree a crash course.There was 400 job management
with RPGA. Yeah, with and sothey gave him a 15 minute,
here's a here's how you do this.You run this command, you wait
to this other thing happens. Yourun this command, and then you
do these things. But whateveryou do, don't do this thing at

(01:59:07):
this time, because that'll screweverything up. And he did that
thing. It two o'clock in themorning. The thing was so
screwed. They had to just startthey just had to punt and
restart restoring from backup.Oh no. He started running batch
jobs on top of each other. Anddeleting stuff. It was a it was
like a almost business endingevent.

And I'm like, what did you think was gonna happen?
Fantastic. Ah, Dave, there'sanother podcast in here for us,
ma'am. Yes. tales from thetrenches.

Magnolia mayhem, do 7777 to fountain Magnolia mayhem
says there's already a goodnumber of audiobooks on our set.
That's podcasting. Yes, therethere are, that's for sure.
Mostly creepy pasta stuff likeTales from the gas station.
Several productions of Bourassalast known position etc. but

(02:00:00):
it's a foot in the door. I wishI could think of some non horror
examples. But outside of that Ijust have custom RSS feeds on my
NAS for my own audio book ribs.It's pretty easy. Yeah, either
way. We're already heading inthat direction. Right? Oh, it is
creepy pasta. What does thatmean?

It's a good band name.

Yes.

Not everybody with creepypasta.

See, Jean been 2222. Hey, Jean to cast magic. He
says, I think Dave is rightabout the K God. K God feed
being a podcast l feed. But doany apps actually support
podcast l playlists? They

will? They will, they will. They will. Because
that that project will that willhappen. Somehow that's going to
happen. Someone's going to do ifit's not me, it's going to be
somebody's going to happen. SamSathya also sent me a very
thoughtful email with all kindsof ideas about that. I'm still
processing everything. He thinksthat should be the publisher
feet. I'm thinking the podcastso I think the list is the way

(02:01:02):
to go. But we're working on it.We're working on it. There's
plenty figured out whenever wewill figure it out. Of course

do stuff, see what works, and then go yep, yep.
Yep, comic strip blogger, thedelimiter. Here we go. 23,000
SAS through fountain CSB says,howdy, David Adam. I'd like to
recommend a podcast aboutimportant things in life,
literal quote from the lastepisode. Quote, I am so happy

(02:01:29):
with my new exercise regime,also called having a job. I
don't know if I'll let you knowif I can see my junk in the
shower someday. Unquote. SaidRyan bemrose. The delivery
driver for Amazon'ssubcontractor from Seattle other
co host is some unemployed Irishguy called Darren or Darren from

(02:01:50):
a shoe rack Wars era. Check itout at www dot grumpy old Ben's
dot com comma yo CSB. So

Devora divorce. Darren O'Neill always does the
Rock and Roll pre show completecopyright violation before every
it's the copyright or copyrightviolation show before every no
agenda live show. And John wasragging on him. He says Darrell,
I'm like Wow, man. The guy hasbeen doing this for years and
you still know his name. Youcall him Darryl now instead of

(02:02:22):
Darren. So that's what I thinkwe should just in the knife that
we should play commerce orbloggers jingle. We haven't
played that in a while. Yeah, doit hit a

Unknown (02:02:31):
comic strip.

Comic Strip,

Unknown (02:02:34):
Comic Strip,
strip.
Comic Strip. Comics jam comicstrip.

Classic has been around for 15 years that that
jingle probably gets

the monthlies. Alright Terry Terry killer $5
Thank you, Terry. Siliconeflorist. $10 Chris cow and $5
Damon Cazal Jack $15. Yarn,Rosenstein. $1 Derek J. Vickery,
the best name and podcasting.$21. Jeremy gerdts. $5. Michael
Hall $5.50. and New Mediaprojections. That's Todd and Rob

(02:03:13):
$30. Go

thank you all very much. You know, I read somewhere
I think tally coin. Did theyshut down the tally coin shut
down?

No.

You wouldn't know because nothing ever comes in
through tally coin. So wewouldn't know. That's right.

If a tree falls in the woods, nobody's around to
hear it. And

we'll tally coin have a receipt. Nope. They
won't. Hey, good board meetingeverybody. I feel like we we fix
the we saw a lot of stuff onceagain. That's a board did you
who's doing the meeting minutes?

Somebody's got it. Somebody's

got it. My

name. And Mike's got it.

Yeah. All right. Brother. Have a great weekend.
Dave.

Yeah. Have a good trip to Nashville. Yes.

Yes. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it's going to
be a lot of fun. Okay. boardroomThank you very much for being
here. Once again. We'll be backin two weeks for another
probably extended edition of thepodcasting 2.0 podcast See you
then everybody.

Unknown (02:04:24):
You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcasts
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