November 29, 2022 • 38 mins
Skyline Drive has been selected as an Apple Podcasts Series Essential! Listen ad-free for a limited time.
Mangesh begins his journey into the weird, wonderful world of astrology with a little help from: his mom, a science writer, a famous musician, and one very sneaky author! But when an ominous prediction suddenly comes true, his life turns upside down.
We made you a mixtape! Listen to Sounds from Skyline Drive Vol 1 and Vol 2.
For more information on Dr. Kumar, visit his website.
Like what you hear? Follow us @kscope_nyc on Instagram and Twitter.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Noel Brown (00:10):
Warning. The following episode contains adult language, discussion of miracles,
arranged marriages, Channing Tatum, and disclosure of at least one
Bible approved stoning. Sensitive listeners take care.
Mangesh Hattikudur (00:36):
So here's a confession I'm gonna make right at the
top of the show. I don't believe in astrology, but
astrology keeps happening to me. Now everyone says podcasting is
the most visual medium, so I made you a slideshow
to try to explain. This is the real Skyline Drive.
It's in Delaware, and growing up when I couldn't sleep,
(00:59):
it's one of the many places I would drive to
look at the stars. This is the moon. It rules
our emotions. This is Mercury in retrograde. You know it
because it makes life miserable. This is Rahu and Ketu.
They're important and mischievous nodes in Vedic astrology. They're prominent
in Donald Trump's horoscope, and they're also responsible for Paris Hilton.
(01:21):
This is me. I was born May 1, 1979. This
is the sky at the time I was born. In
Western astrology, it makes me a Taurus. These are some
other Tauruses
Barbra Streisand. The fact that we're all Tauruses has made
me doubt astrology for a very long time. These are
(01:45):
my parents. They've been hitched fifty-one years and every morning
my dad makes my mom a cup of tea, and
then they sit and do the spelling bee in pencil. It's adorable, right?
These are my parents calling in the middle of this recording.
Umesh Hattikudur (01:58):
Hey Mangesh, I think you had called, so I was calling back.
Give me a call.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:02):
This is India. When I was growing up, words like "yoga"
and "meditation" and "turmeric" and "astrology"? These were words that were
part of my Indian life. But they weren't a part
of my going-to-school fitting-into-America one. But now? Now everyone has
an opinion about it.
street interviews (02:19):
I'm a Gemini, which I've heard is bad. I'm a Libra,
so I'm indecisive. That's definitely true.
I'm a Taurus. I find the start to be beautiful.
It sucks that we can't see you stars in New
York because of all the lights.
I know a few people who are kind of into it,
and they're like, asked, yo, did you see the horoscope today?
And I'm like, nah, bro, not really, I'm not worried
about what the horoscope says.
I know a lot of people don't believe in it,
(02:41):
but why can't people just believe in things for fun,
Like it doesn't have to be backed up by anything.
If you believe in fantasy football, why can't you believe
in astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:49):
A few months ago, my friends and I set out
to make this show about astrology. We wanted to run
around the city and have some wild adventures and understand
why after so many millennia, people still looked to the
sky for answers.
This is an astrologer I met in Queens. He promised me,
you're gonna dig this show.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (03:06):
I think if you do your own show will become
a super hit, no doubt about it.
Mangesh Hattikudur (03:12):
This is a graph of how much I believe in
astrology before our session. Not that much. This is a
graph of how much I started believing thirty minutes later
when something horrible he said came true.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (03:25):
That's why I asked again from the time he started
a couple of years back. Still now, the situation doesn't
look good.
Mangesh Hattikudur (03:33):
This is me traveling halfway around the world to answer
the biggest question my entire life. This is a shop
in India where your fortune is waiting for you. It
was written centuries ago and put on a shelf and
the shopkeepers know which one to pull because it's coded
by your thumb print and the time you're going to walk
through that door. This, this is me walking through that door.
(03:57):
I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Radio, this is
Skyline Drive.
(04:38):
CHAPTER ONE
A.J. Jacobs (04:46):
So I figured, you know, I do need to stone
an astrologer. And there are a bunch of astrologers on
the upper west Side. It was set up with these...
Mangesh Hattikudur (04:54):
(laughing) Wait! So, you're looking for an astrologer to stone?!
A.J. Jacobs (04:57):
Oh yeah, well I needed to check it off the list. I've got a hundred things to check off...
Mangesh Hattikudur (05:02):
You know, already this reporting and starting off weirder than
I thought. It's ten o'clock on a bright summer day
and I'm standing here with A. J. Jacobs.
A.J. Jacobs (05:11):
I am an author and a journalist and a Pisces.
Mangesh Hattikudur (05:15):
In addition to being a Pisces-- or technically on the
cusp of Pisces and Aries, A.J. is a friend... and
he's one of my favorite writers. I've come to meet
him in this neighborhood because in 2007, he wrote a
New York Times bestseller called The Year of Living Biblically.
The book was a phenomenon. It came out in multiple languages,
There were magazine and TV pieces about it. It was
(05:36):
such a big deal that at one point Marlon Wayans
was lined up to play A.J. in the network TV version.
A.J. Jacobs (05:42):
The premise was that I would follow all the rules
of the Bible as literally as possible. So that meant
the famous ones
but also the lesser known ones like 'you cannot wear
clothes made of two different kinds of fabrics,' so I
had to get rid of all of my poly-cotton blends.
Mangesh Hattikudur (06:03):
Giving up poly-cotton blends is just one of the hardships A.J.
endured in the name of journalism. He also grew a massive beard,
shoved a wild bird so he could steal its egg
and say a prayer on it, and he followed 700
other Biblical rules literally in an attempt to understand religion.
And somewhere along the way he decided that to fully
appreciate the Bible...
A.J. Jacobs (06:23):
... you actually had to stone people who committed these abominations.
And the abominations included adultery, breaking the Sabbath, but also astrology, witchcraft, divination,
they're all sort of lumped together.
Mangesh Hattikudur (06:39):
Just the fact that he decided to stone someone was
a shock to me. I mean, A.J. is one of
the nicest people I know, but that's how committed he was.
A.J. Jacobs (06:48):
I didn't want to go to jail for assault. I
just wanted to check it off my list, you know,
stone an astrologer
on the street and just very subtly dropped a pebble
so that it landed on her shoe
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:05):
(kind of a drive by stoning)
A.J. Jacobs (07:08):
And I was thinking, she's probably not even gonna notice
because I just kept walking. Oh she noticed, and she's like:
"what what's going on? Why did you do that?!" And
so I had to tell the truth, because I was
following the Bible. I thought maybe she'll think it's funny.
She did not think it's funny. She was pissed. She
started yelling at me like, "F you, go to F'in hell!"
(07:32):
I was rattled. Even if you're trying to stone someone
in modern day using pebbles, people don't like it. That's
a lesson, that's a takeaway.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:41):
Rule #1
I'd come for, but I wrote it down anyway. The
thing I'd really wanted to know; the reason I traveled
all the way out here to meet with A.J. was
to ask him how to make this show... because doing
a show on astrology? It actually makes me nervous. Like,
(08:03):
is there a way to talk about how accurate a
fortune-telling parrot could possibly be? Or is there a way
to joke about whether an astro curse can make you bald?
Because even if the show makes me look silly, like,
I don't want to get disinvited from a family wedding
because I said something that hurt friends or family... or
(08:24):
really anyone who puts stock in the subject. [to AJ]
"As I'm trying to uncover threads and things like how
do you tell a story delicately where you're not offending
people but still engaging with the subject?"
A.J. Jacobs (08:35):
I had that exact dilemma when I was writing The
Year of Living Biblically, because I was coming in as
an agnostic writing about religion. My big overall advice is
go in with deep curiosity. Don't go in with an
agenda that you're trying to disprove or prove astrology. You're
(08:57):
just an explorer. So go in with no axe. Leave
your axes at home.
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:04):
That I think I can do. After the break, we
talk to an astrologer who doesn't believe in astrology, take
a subway ride to Queens and hear this from my mom:
Lalita Hattikudur (09:17):
"I felt like a Jersey Cow."
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:37):
CHAPTER TWO
Channing Tatum (09:42):
Is the phone listening? Is that? Are you listening through
the phone? Pattern? AI? The algorithm? That is The Pattern?
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:47):
Back in 2020, one of my friends shot me a
text linking to this video of Channing Tatum. The actor
had uploaded it himself after using an astrology app called
The Pattern. But when Channing's readings became a little too
spot on, he freaked out.
Channing Tatum (10:01):
Are you listening through my phone? And then just regurgitating
the stuff that I'm afraid of? And stuff? You know what?
Pattern People-- you should just call me. I need answers
right now.
Mangesh Hattikudur (10:11):
Poor Channing. I don't know if he ever got his answers,
but what I do know is that astrology is ubiquitous
and lucrative. One venture capital investor told The New York
Times that the app Co-star, a Pattern competitor, had the
potential to be a twenty four billion dollar business, claiming
he could one day be as big as Spotify. But
(10:34):
if astrology is as big an opportunity as everyone's saying,
I'm wondering if my company should get into the act.
After all, it feels so obvious that-- I don't know--
even a 9 year old could see the potential? So
I decided to try to pitch out on my 9
year old.
Ruby (10:49):
Hey Anu, why did you bring me to this closet?
Mangesh Hattikudur (10:53):
I brought you to this closet because I wanted to
pitch you on an astrology app? Are you ready for it?
Ruby (10:59):
Booooooo...
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:01):
Why is that? What do you think about astrology?
Ruby (11:03):
It's dumb.
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:04):
Oh gosh, well, maybe you're not the right person for it,
but the reason I came to you is because you actually
have a bank. You spend only my money. You seem
to hoard all your money. And you keep all of
Henry's money as well, which you charge him a small
fee for. So I thought you might be the savvaest
person in this family. Is it okay if I pitch
you an astrology app?
Ruby (11:25):
Uhhh... Okay.
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:26):
So here's my case for it. These aren't your grandmother's horoscopes, right?
They're talking to you in this very fresh and fun way. Uh,
they're up to the minute with the latest NASA data.
They look beautiful, and they have a chat feature where
astrologers will chat with you live about your birth charts. Right?
And then by 2019, right, like you can see astrology is
(11:48):
starting to take over. Bumble, this dating app, they start
allowing you to sort your matches by birth signs, so
like you could say, like I only want to date
Tauruses or I only want to date Geminis or whatever.
In fact, astrology in 2019 was a 2.2 billion dollar market.
What do you think about that?
Ruby (12:07):
Mind blown!
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:12):
I can't tell whether you're serious or not, but apps
made forty million dollars that year. And in fact, the
next year, when COVID really hit, people started searching for
birth charts and astrology. Both of those searches hit five
year peaks on Google. So it's no wonder that all
these venture capital funds had started investing in astrology apps
(12:35):
early and then continue to invest... and I'm here to
ask you to invest in my astrology app. What do
you think?
Ruby (12:44):
Um, Anu... I'm spending my money on a skateboard, not
on you.
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:49):
Okay, well, so Ruby, what type of business would you
invest in?
Ruby (12:53):
Bubble guuuuuummmm!
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:57):
[laughing] Okay.
CHAPTER THREE
When you go out with a recorder in hand, it's
interesting to see who will talk on tape. We found scientists
(13:17):
at NASA who actually wouldn't talk about their interest in
astrology to us because they were afraid of losing their jobs.
We found PhDs and post-docs who were worried that if
they talked at all to our podcasts, even to say
that astrology was nonsense, they would face professional repercussions. I mean,
it is insanity what a lightning rod astrology can be.
(13:39):
But luckily we found Jaime Green.
Jaime Green (13:42):
My grandfather showed me a little half of a peanut
that had this germ in it, and he said, that's going
to become a plant. And it was just things like
that that got me interested in the world, which is
the same as being interested in science.
Mangesh Hattikudur (13:55):
Jaime is a celebrated science writer
Jaime Green (13:57):
and I'm Sagittarius, although you would not know it from
looking at anything about my life. I've got some planet
in Capricorn that explains why I'm not an impulsive adventurer.
Mangesh Hattikudur (14:10):
She has a new book coming out called The Possibility
of Life and she's co editor of the annual Best
American Science and Nature writing volumes, and whether it's chatting
about our garden or the way we perceive constellations, her
capacity for wonder is incredible... and infectious. But perhaps what
I love most about Jaime was how she clarified that
(14:32):
science and astrology don't actually have to be at odds
with one another, that we don't need science to disprove astrology.
Not that she thinks astrology is a science exactly scientifically:
Jaime Green (14:45):
In terms of astronomy, astrology doesn't hold a lot of
meaning because it's all very human centric. From the point
of view of looking at the stars from Earth.
Mangesh Hattikudur (14:55):
The stars are light years apart. They have no real
relation to each other except in our minds. But that relationship,
the one we make up while looking up at the stars,
that means something... or it can mean something, if you
want it to.
Jaime Green (15:13):
It's like a much more eloquent, poetic personal fortune cookie.
And I don't mean that disparagingly. I just think that
it's for you to take from it what you need.
And like we don't think it's anti-science to say a
poem is true. I think that's where science gets defensive,
is when people say that astrology is a science and
(15:34):
has physical roots in the stars. It's like, oh, no
it doesn't. But it's true the way a poem is true.
Mangesh Hattikudur (15:41):
I can't tell you how much I love that. I mean,
as someone who's a skeptic but also a romantic, this
idea that astrology is true the same way a poem
is true? That feels right to me. And it's something
my friend Pete also said when I talked to him.
Pete's deal is, well, it's complicated.
Peter Bauer (16:03):
So like even though I was like a semi-successful musician,
I was like, I need to make money somehow, like
right now. Like what other skills do I have? Oh,
I do astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur (16:15):
Pete is a rock star; like a real rock star.
He used to be in The Walkman, that massive seminal
Indie rock band. And yes, his backup career was professional astrology.
When he was younger, he trained with this big famous guru.
(16:37):
He was living in his guesthouse and that's where he
learned to read star charts.
Peter Bauer (16:42):
You would take them back to him and he would
say like, "no, it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard."
Like "you're wrong." You know? And then he kind of,
in very traditional style, like yell-at-the-apprentice sort of thing..."
Mangesh Hattikudur (16:55):
Kung-fu master thing?
Peter Bauer (16:56):
Right. Very very karate kid kind of feeling, right.
Mangesh Hattikudur (17:00):
But here's the other thing
He's a rock star who does astrology for politicians and
World Bank economists and all sorts of interesting folks, but
he doesn't believe in it.
Peter Bauer (17:15):
It's this art to me. And I don't mean that dismissively. Like,
that's like my whole being. Like, that's what I care about.
Mangesh Hattikudur (17:20):
What he believes really is in a more vivid reality,
a kind of embroidered view of the world. Pete and
I both spent formative years in India, and we have
a certain comfort in the magical.
Peter Bauer (17:33):
If you read like a hundred Years of Solitude or
something like that, world of like this kind of magical Columbia.
You know, it's like that felt very similar in a
lot of ways to how we were raised.
Mangesh Hattikudur (17:51):
Magical explanations have been woven throughout my life, like why
was my family's little community in India so well off
a century ago? You could say it's because of luck
or global economics. You could say it's because when the
Civil War was happening in the US, England actually needed
more sources of cotton to replace all the cotton that
(18:12):
the US had been producing. And my family they just
happened to be in the right place to manage mills
and plant cotton on their land. Or you could tell
the story in a way that's way, way more magical:
that a great great ancestor had this powerful vision from
a goddess that if he chanted a simple string of
prayers every single night, and he taught all his children
(18:35):
to sing it, and they taught all their children, his
people would be protected for years. And for most of
my life, I only knew that second story.
(19:05):
CHAPTER FOUR
Arranged marriage has always been this thing that's hard for
me to talk about. When I first moved to Delaware,
kids in my elementary school had all these questions for
me about being Indian, right? Like does your family sleep
on a bed of nails? Can you charm snakes? Just
you know these things they've seen on cartoons? And arranged
(19:28):
marriage was just another one of these questions I'd have
to field... except this one actually bothered me more because
this time I'd have to admit that, "yes, my parents
did have an arranged marriage." And then I'd have to explain.
The thing is, everyone assumed my mom and dad were
like forcibly paired off when they were 9 years old
and then sent away to work and have kids, and
(19:51):
that isn't true. It's like my parents situation was a
little more like Pride and Prejudice. Like, you come from
a good family, your parents want you to marry into
another good family, so they set you up. They make
introductions to certain people, and if you like each other,
(20:11):
they kind of fast-track the marriage, or they make more introductions.
But since this was already super hard to explain, I
just left out the part about astrology, which also plays
a big role in the whole arranged marriage thing. It
was like, I don't know, just too difficult or embarrassing something.
(20:32):
After all, it's it's a weird thing to have to
admit you only exist because of astrology. But I'll let
my mom explain.
Tell me about how your marriage was arranged.
Lalita Hattikudur (20:43):
Oh, that's funny. Okay. Umesh's aunt, Shardakka-- she came to
see Amma because she'd heard that, you know, I was available.
Mangesh Hattikudur (20:55):
I guess this story starts, of course, with two families...
dusting off their kids' horoscopes and handing them off to
a trusted astrologer, not some low-level quack.
Lalita Hattikudur (21:05):
So they matched it, and it matched perfectly.
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:08):
The traditional Indian matching system is way more complicated than
just saying
is supposed to be a union of souls, so the
astrologers inspect all the vagaries of your chart and pressure
test everything like your personalities, your feelings about class and status,
even how a couple's health will be affected by one another.
(21:29):
It's all on a scale of 36 points, and any
match under eighteen points shouldn't be considered. But anything over 32,
that's something you want to lock down immediately.
Lalita Hattikudur (21:40):
My parents want to make sure that the man I married
did not yell at me... so she asked the astrology, you know, how
is his nature? So the astrologer told Amma that he
was a gentle creature you know, never lost his temper.
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:53):
So this part is true
dad yell a handful of times, and most of that
was when our dog Lupini would just race out of
the house, and he would run after her with this
like slice of Kraft singles cheese, just waving it to
try to tempt her back. And it always worked because
(22:14):
she was super greedy.
Lalita Hattikudur (22:16):
But one fault he'd have has never come on time
to the table to have dinner. And we thought it
was a big joke and that came true. We couldn't
believe that astrology could be that powerful to tell a
quirk like that.
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:30):
Wasn't there something else with the mother-in-law?
Lalita Hattikudur (22:32):
The mother-in-law? Yes, they said that I would be best
for a boy that did not have a mother. I
really don't know. They said was something to do with
the stars, and if I had a mother-in-law, it wouldn't
go well. So here Umesh had lost his mother when
he was under a year, I think, or just about
a year. So it was perfect.
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:53):
This is something I think about a lot, how astrology
accounts for everything. My dad had an aaya or a nanny,
but he never had a mother. His life was a
series of hostels and boarding schools, sometimes in cities hundreds
of miles from his home. It makes me sad to
think about. But if his mom had survived, my parents
(23:16):
would never have been together. Astrology would have made sure
of that. Anyway, back to my mom. Even though my
grandmom was working really hard to set her up, my
mom was not keen to get married.
Lalita Hattikudur (23:29):
I wasn't ready. I was still studying and it was
in my final year for master's studying linguistics. I didn't
want to give that up, and I didn't want to
get married that fast. So I felt like a Jersey Cow. I wasn't happy.
And things were really moving faster than I ever expected,
(23:50):
so I said, I'm going to foil this.
Mangesh Hattikudur (23:52):
So, just to get the picture, a typical woman hoping
for a match would be waiting, sitting by her parents,
dressed in a sari or something traditional-- like making a
big show of what a quiet and obedient wife they
could be. And instead...
Lalita Hattikudur (24:08):
I had a mini-skirt on. And I had a Lambretta. I rode
that and came.
Mangesh Hattikudur (24:13):
Oh, and she's also late. Like my mom is the
most punctual person I know. She gets to the airport
three hours ahead of time, and that's since I was
a kid. So she's clearly trying to tank this thing.
Lalita Hattikudur (24:26):
And my hair-- I had let it loose. It was curly and
wasn't done. But instead, you know, Umesh's aunt said
that's no problem. We love modern girls!"
Mangesh Hattikudur (24:36):
What type of woman do you think Ammama was expecting
to present?
Lalita Hattikudur (24:41):
She wanted them to know that I was absolutely sensitive
and very loving, very kind and gentle with everyone, and
an animal lover.
Mangesh Hattikudur (24:50):
But my Grandmam was also incredibly honest, so she was
sure to tell my dad's family this:
Lalita Hattikudur (24:56):
I had no interest in cooking.
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:00):
Anyway, despite my mom's lack of interest in the kitchen
and her dramatic attempt to topple this whole affair, she
somehow still won my dad's family over.
Lalita Hattikudur (25:10):
So Amma said
If you don't like him, it's fine."
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:15):
He was a charming writer.
Lalita Hattikudur (25:16):
He was a charming writer.
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:18):
So they wrote letters back and forth for a year,
and when they finally met in person?
Lalita Hattikudur (25:23):
... you know, he looked so vulnerable that I said, "oh,
this is great. I can handle him."
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:28):
My parents don't have a perfect marriage, but there are
lots of wonderful bits... things that make me think those
32 points mean something. Like once when they were young, they visited Paris,
and they went to dinner at this fancy restaurant with
a ballroom, and an orchestra started playing and no one
was dancing... crickets! So my dad just whisked my mom
(25:51):
onto the dance floor and then slowly everyone in the
place joins in. And when my parents went back to
their table, the band leader had actually sent them this
gorgeous bottle of brandy to say thank you for livening
the place up, and for getting everyone dancing. I mean,
if astrology can promise you those sorts of scenes, it's
like who wouldn't listen?
(26:11):
Of course, astrology has done damage in the family too.
Here's my mom telling me about an arranged marriage gone wrong:
Lalita Hattikudur (26:18):
My cousin Nana. The girl that they looked for the
horoscope matched with him.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:23):
Who's your cousin, Nana?
Lalita Hattikudur (26:24):
Nana from Mangalore. So there was a danger of his
brother dying if the girl married Nana.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:32):
The astrologers predicted that if the couple went through with
the marriage, even though their horoscopes matched, it could lead
to Nana's brother's death. I mean, who wants that on
their hands, even if it's putting your chances for love
at risk.
Lalita Hattikudur (26:47):
So to this day, he still a bachelor.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:49):
Really? Well, what do you think about that?
Lalita Hattikudur (26:54):
It's a shame. Yeah, they could have found other girls,
but he just was dejected. He said no more girls; no more horoscopes. So he's still a bachelor.
Mangesh Hattikudur (27:03):
That's heartbreaking.
Lalita Hattikudur (27:05):
It is really is.
Mangesh Hattikudur (27:18):
After chatting with my mom, two things occurred to me
the chasm between the way Americans and Indians use astrology?
That only felt wider. Like no app was going to
tell you to quit your MBA to marry some guy
in America, or to break it off with this girl
because it could bring bad luck or death to another
family member. Like the starkness of the way Indian astrology
(27:40):
can be used to control lives-- it felt so dark.
But also... pretty intriguing. Like, it only made me want
to dig in more. And the second thing I remembered
is this piece of advice A.J. gave me about really
embracing the show.
A.J. Jacobs (27:58):
I think you gotta go all in. So you've got
to hire an astrologer to help you with the show.
Figure out when you should start; when should the air
date be; who should you hire to help you? Should
it be a Virgo or a Capricorn? Like, go for it,
because that's one way to test it is to see:
(28:18):
does it work for you?
Mangesh Hattikudur (28:20):
So I decided to find an Indian astrologer and solve
both problems. I could lean into my Indian side and
also have some fun with it. But what I didn't
know was that that visit was going to change my life.
(28:50):
CHAPTER FIVE
On April 9th, I headed to Queens to meet an astrologer.
He's someone my friend and showrunner for the show, Mary
recommended that I reached out to. And coincidentally, he happened
(29:10):
to be an astrologer that my cousin Aditya had used.
Hey, Adit.
Aditya (29:13):
Hey, how's it going?
Mangesh Hattikudur (29:14):
How are you?
Aditya (29:14):
Good, good.
Mangesh Hattikudur (29:14):
Adit is another rational type. He's kind of this white-shoe lawyer;
masters from Cambridge. And he used this astrologer in a
difficult time... and apparently the predictions had proven accurate. So
Adit actually wanted to see him again. So I took
a train to Jackson Heights to meet Dr Rakesh Kumar. And we
(29:34):
entered his white wood frame office. From the outside, it's
kind of nondescript. Like this row house. But when you
opened the door, you immediately sensed these temple-like vibes. So
I took off my shoes at the entrance, walked through
a fog of sweet sandalwood, and there were these massive
(29:54):
photos of his guru on the wall. And then I
turned into this tiny room with a wooden desk, and
it had a giant stack of books on it with
a little black laptop on top. Looking around, I realized
how fun this is. I'm here on this field trip
with my cousin, this astrology adventure. And I'm so ready
(30:15):
to hear some ridiculous things and enjoy this experience. Dr
Kumar very sweetly welcomes me. And he closes his emails.
And then, using the information I sent him a few
days before, he pulls up my chart and turns on
his recorder.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (30:33):
So Mangesh, looking at the chart
in Summit, New Jersey. You're born on a Tuesday. You
have the sign cancer rising....
Mangesh Hattikudur (30:44):
I've got to say, I was a little surprised by
how quickly Dr Kumar dives in. It seems like he's
just staring at a bunch of numbers on his screen,
but he's interpreting them, kind of like Neo from the Matrix.
And I'm curious to hear my reading. But what I
really want to do is asked Dr Kumar about the show.
I thought it would be fun if there were these
(31:04):
auspicious dates for my podcast, or if you could predict
something about how many people would listen. But first-- he
had some questions for me.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (31:14):
So how's what been since January?
Mangesh Hattikudur (31:18):
Um, that's when I decided to quit my job.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (31:25):
So either you would have quit your job, or the
job would have quit you. One of those things because
the times are such, because it impacts your karma-chetra, you're work area. It's
so ironic, you come here today. Four days from now-- April 13 onwards,
thereafter a new chapter of your life begins. Another beginning
of your life, which will be very good.
Mangesh Hattikudur (31:46):
This is what I came for. I write down April
13th in my notebook and I circle it big. Four
days from now. That's the date I'm going to get
started on my show.
Dr Kumar continues with more work related things. He says
foreign travel is in the cards, which is super exciting,
and that I should wear an emerald to improve my
(32:07):
communication skills, which is funny. I make a note to
do an episode on gems and vedic astrology down the line.
But the best part is that Dr Kumar seems to
think this whole podcast will go really well:
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (32:21):
So it's very profound. So you'll make it big in life.
You'll be very successful in everything, because your planets show that.
Mangesh Hattikudur (32:28):
I'm so excited about all this tape. Getting a start
date for the show; the talk of gems; this prediction
that everything might go well, that I'm caught off guard
by Dr Kumar's next question, which comes out of nowhere.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (32:41):
Tell me something about your father. Um, like what he did
for work or it still does.
Mangesh Hattikudur (32:49):
He's a chemical engineer. He's retired. He's ill right now.
Listening back, I don't know why I mentioned my dad
was ill. Dr Kumar hadn't asked, and maybe it's because
I was trying to participate fully, like I thought I
should let him know. Years ago my dad was diagnosed
(33:10):
with cancer, but he actually sailed through that treatment and
he's been cancer-free for a while now. But recently he
broke a rib reaching for something, which was odd. And
then he also had this slight boost in some liver counts,
which his doctor told him not to worry about.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (33:27):
Because that's why I asked again
started a couple of years back, till now, situation doesn't
look good for father. There is risk to father.
Mangesh Hattikudur (33:38):
This thing about my dad? It was a throwaway line
in the middle of an hour and a half interview.
I don't even know how closely I was listening. By
the time we hit stop on the recorder, I was thrilled.
I had over an hour of material and I was
cutting tape my head as I was asking questions. And
I know I felt good. I thanked Dr Kumar for
his time, and I let him run off to feed
(34:00):
his mother lunch, which he does every day. And then
my cousin and I walked off to get fresh dosas
and idlis at one of the many canteens that dot this
area of Jackson Heights.
Aditya (34:14):
Table for two? Thank you.
Mangesh Hattikudur (34:17):
And then twenty minutes into chatting and laughing and debating
what's real about astrology and what isn't and how can
you even tell, right? I received this email from my dad.
It read
the news is not as good as it could be.
(34:40):
We'll talk to the doctors and let you know as soon
as we can. Study results diffuse metastatic disease throughout the
liver and bones from unknown primary.
The cancer had metastasized through my dad's liver and bones.
(35:00):
I don't know what it means, but I've forgotten about astrology.
I don't care about emeralds or whether any of this
feels embarrassing anymore. My stomach drops. I can't finish my chai.
I don't know what to write, so I just tap out:
"I'm so sorry, Dad. I'll call you back in a bit."
(35:24):
And all I'm thinking now is how fast can I
get to Atlanta?
(35:50):
Next week on Skyline Drive, we take a train to
Bay Ridge, meet a therapist who secretly uses astrology behind
her clients' backs, and hang out with a 74-year old
who just wants to know:
Jean (36:02):
Am I ever going to have sex with somebody again?
Mangesh Hattikudur (36:06):
And we use astrology to get her an answer.
Thank you so much for listening. I have so many
people to thank. Skyline Drive is a production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeart Podcasts. The show is hosted and written by
me Mangesh Hattikudur, with a ton of help, like SO MUCH HELP from
(36:28):
these wonderful people. Mary Phillips-Sandy is our cat-loving supervising producer.
Mitra Bonshahi produced this whole thing, despite my constantly getting
in the way. Mark Lotto is our incredible story editor
who even suffered a trip to India with me. This
episode was mixed by my pal at Soundboard with scoring
from Botany. The song Yo la Mango is my absolute favorite. Um,
(36:52):
the insane music in between is courtesy of Azadi Records,
Himanshu Suri and Peter Matthew Bauer. If you want to
hear more, we made you a mixtape, just check out
the show notes. Additional production and research support from the
wonderful Anna Rubinova, Dhruv Shiva Rao, Lucas Reilly, Bethanne Macaluso, Aditya Basrur,
(37:13):
and my wonderful wife Lizzie Jacobs. There's also my superstar
Aunt Suman "the Woman" Bakshi, and my cousin Arjun Bakshi who helped me
out of a giant pinch abroad. The show is executive
produced from iHeart by my good pal Nikki Ettore and Katrina Norvell.
This show would not have happened without the support of
my friends at Kaleidoscope, starting with my good pal Oz Woloshyn,
(37:37):
who believed in this show. He's also my partner at Kaleidoscope.
Also Kate Osborne for her spot-on notes, Costas Linos, for
his encouragement and Vahini Shori for her delightful suggestions. I
also want to give a little special thanks to all
the kiddos who bore with us through this production
Lu and Little Enzo Ettore. All my friends at iHeart,
(38:00):
including Bob, Conal, Will, Carrie, Nathan, Jason, Jeri, my New
York and Atlanta Crews. There are too many to name.
Also Shanta, Saurabh, my family in India, my family in the States,
my friend Noel Brown who read this episode's warning... Check
out his shows
You To Know. And just one last thank you
(38:21):
my Amma and my dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur, who I
thank my lucky stars for. Thank you so much for listening.
Warning. The following episode contains adult language, discussion of miracles,
arranged marriages, Channing Tatum, and disclosure of at least one
Bible approved stoning. Sensitive listeners take care.
Mangesh Hattikudur (00:36):
So here's a confession I'm gonna make right at the
top of the show. I don't believe in astrology, but
astrology keeps happening to me. Now everyone says podcasting is
the most visual medium, so I made you a slideshow
to try to explain. This is the real Skyline Drive.
It's in Delaware, and growing up when I couldn't sleep,
(00:59):
it's one of the many places I would drive to
look at the stars. This is the moon. It rules
our emotions. This is Mercury in retrograde. You know it
because it makes life miserable. This is Rahu and Ketu.
They're important and mischievous nodes in Vedic astrology. They're prominent
in Donald Trump's horoscope, and they're also responsible for Paris Hilton.
(01:21):
This is me. I was born May 1, 1979. This
is the sky at the time I was born. In
Western astrology, it makes me a Taurus. These are some
other Tauruses
Barbra Streisand. The fact that we're all Tauruses has made
me doubt astrology for a very long time. These are
(01:45):
my parents. They've been hitched fifty-one years and every morning
my dad makes my mom a cup of tea, and
then they sit and do the spelling bee in pencil. It's adorable, right?
These are my parents calling in the middle of this recording.
Umesh Hattikudur (01:58):
Hey Mangesh, I think you had called, so I was calling back.
Give me a call.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:02):
This is India. When I was growing up, words like "yoga"
and "meditation" and "turmeric" and "astrology"? These were words that were
part of my Indian life. But they weren't a part
of my going-to-school fitting-into-America one. But now? Now everyone has
an opinion about it.
street interviews (02:19):
I'm a Gemini, which I've heard is bad. I'm a Libra,
so I'm indecisive. That's definitely true.
I'm a Taurus. I find the start to be beautiful.
It sucks that we can't see you stars in New
York because of all the lights.
I know a few people who are kind of into it,
and they're like, asked, yo, did you see the horoscope today?
And I'm like, nah, bro, not really, I'm not worried
about what the horoscope says.
I know a lot of people don't believe in it,
(02:41):
but why can't people just believe in things for fun,
Like it doesn't have to be backed up by anything.
If you believe in fantasy football, why can't you believe
in astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:49):
A few months ago, my friends and I set out
to make this show about astrology. We wanted to run
around the city and have some wild adventures and understand
why after so many millennia, people still looked to the
sky for answers.
This is an astrologer I met in Queens. He promised me,
you're gonna dig this show.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (03:06):
I think if you do your own show will become
a super hit, no doubt about it.
Mangesh Hattikudur (03:12):
This is a graph of how much I believe in
astrology before our session. Not that much. This is a
graph of how much I started believing thirty minutes later
when something horrible he said came true.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (03:25):
That's why I asked again from the time he started
a couple of years back. Still now, the situation doesn't
look good.
Mangesh Hattikudur (03:33):
This is me traveling halfway around the world to answer
the biggest question my entire life. This is a shop
in India where your fortune is waiting for you. It
was written centuries ago and put on a shelf and
the shopkeepers know which one to pull because it's coded
by your thumb print and the time you're going to walk
through that door. This, this is me walking through that door.
(03:57):
I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Radio, this is
Skyline Drive.
(04:38):
CHAPTER ONE
A.J. Jacobs (04:46):
So I figured, you know, I do need to stone
an astrologer. And there are a bunch of astrologers on
the upper west Side. It was set up with these...
Mangesh Hattikudur (04:54):
(laughing) Wait! So, you're looking for an astrologer to stone?!
A.J. Jacobs (04:57):
Oh yeah, well I needed to check it off the list. I've got a hundred things to check off...
Mangesh Hattikudur (05:02):
You know, already this reporting and starting off weirder than
I thought. It's ten o'clock on a bright summer day
and I'm standing here with A. J. Jacobs.
A.J. Jacobs (05:11):
I am an author and a journalist and a Pisces.
Mangesh Hattikudur (05:15):
In addition to being a Pisces-- or technically on the
cusp of Pisces and Aries, A.J. is a friend... and
he's one of my favorite writers. I've come to meet
him in this neighborhood because in 2007, he wrote a
New York Times bestseller called The Year of Living Biblically.
The book was a phenomenon. It came out in multiple languages,
There were magazine and TV pieces about it. It was
(05:36):
such a big deal that at one point Marlon Wayans
was lined up to play A.J. in the network TV version.
A.J. Jacobs (05:42):
The premise was that I would follow all the rules
of the Bible as literally as possible. So that meant
the famous ones
but also the lesser known ones like 'you cannot wear
clothes made of two different kinds of fabrics,' so I
had to get rid of all of my poly-cotton blends.
Mangesh Hattikudur (06:03):
Giving up poly-cotton blends is just one of the hardships A.J.
endured in the name of journalism. He also grew a massive beard,
shoved a wild bird so he could steal its egg
and say a prayer on it, and he followed 700
other Biblical rules literally in an attempt to understand religion.
And somewhere along the way he decided that to fully
appreciate the Bible...
A.J. Jacobs (06:23):
... you actually had to stone people who committed these abominations.
And the abominations included adultery, breaking the Sabbath, but also astrology, witchcraft, divination,
they're all sort of lumped together.
Mangesh Hattikudur (06:39):
Just the fact that he decided to stone someone was
a shock to me. I mean, A.J. is one of
the nicest people I know, but that's how committed he was.
A.J. Jacobs (06:48):
I didn't want to go to jail for assault. I
just wanted to check it off my list, you know,
stone an astrologer
on the street and just very subtly dropped a pebble
so that it landed on her shoe
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:05):
(kind of a drive by stoning)
A.J. Jacobs (07:08):
And I was thinking, she's probably not even gonna notice
because I just kept walking. Oh she noticed, and she's like:
"what what's going on? Why did you do that?!" And
so I had to tell the truth, because I was
following the Bible. I thought maybe she'll think it's funny.
She did not think it's funny. She was pissed. She
started yelling at me like, "F you, go to F'in hell!"
(07:32):
I was rattled. Even if you're trying to stone someone
in modern day using pebbles, people don't like it. That's
a lesson, that's a takeaway.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:41):
Rule #1
I'd come for, but I wrote it down anyway. The
thing I'd really wanted to know; the reason I traveled
all the way out here to meet with A.J. was
to ask him how to make this show... because doing
a show on astrology? It actually makes me nervous. Like,
(08:03):
is there a way to talk about how accurate a
fortune-telling parrot could possibly be? Or is there a way
to joke about whether an astro curse can make you bald?
Because even if the show makes me look silly, like,
I don't want to get disinvited from a family wedding
because I said something that hurt friends or family... or
(08:24):
really anyone who puts stock in the subject. [to AJ]
"As I'm trying to uncover threads and things like how
do you tell a story delicately where you're not offending
people but still engaging with the subject?"
A.J. Jacobs (08:35):
I had that exact dilemma when I was writing The
Year of Living Biblically, because I was coming in as
an agnostic writing about religion. My big overall advice is
go in with deep curiosity. Don't go in with an
agenda that you're trying to disprove or prove astrology. You're
(08:57):
just an explorer. So go in with no axe. Leave
your axes at home.
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:04):
That I think I can do. After the break, we
talk to an astrologer who doesn't believe in astrology, take
a subway ride to Queens and hear this from my mom:
Lalita Hattikudur (09:17):
"I felt like a Jersey Cow."
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:37):
CHAPTER TWO
Channing Tatum (09:42):
Is the phone listening? Is that? Are you listening through
the phone? Pattern? AI? The algorithm? That is The Pattern?
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:47):
Back in 2020, one of my friends shot me a
text linking to this video of Channing Tatum. The actor
had uploaded it himself after using an astrology app called
The Pattern. But when Channing's readings became a little too
spot on, he freaked out.
Channing Tatum (10:01):
Are you listening through my phone? And then just regurgitating
the stuff that I'm afraid of? And stuff? You know what?
Pattern People-- you should just call me. I need answers
right now.
Mangesh Hattikudur (10:11):
Poor Channing. I don't know if he ever got his answers,
but what I do know is that astrology is ubiquitous
and lucrative. One venture capital investor told The New York
Times that the app Co-star, a Pattern competitor, had the
potential to be a twenty four billion dollar business, claiming
he could one day be as big as Spotify. But
(10:34):
if astrology is as big an opportunity as everyone's saying,
I'm wondering if my company should get into the act.
After all, it feels so obvious that-- I don't know--
even a 9 year old could see the potential? So
I decided to try to pitch out on my 9
year old.
Ruby (10:49):
Hey Anu, why did you bring me to this closet?
Mangesh Hattikudur (10:53):
I brought you to this closet because I wanted to
pitch you on an astrology app? Are you ready for it?
Ruby (10:59):
Booooooo...
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:01):
Why is that? What do you think about astrology?
Ruby (11:03):
It's dumb.
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:04):
Oh gosh, well, maybe you're not the right person for it,
but the reason I came to you is because you actually
have a bank. You spend only my money. You seem
to hoard all your money. And you keep all of
Henry's money as well, which you charge him a small
fee for. So I thought you might be the savvaest
person in this family. Is it okay if I pitch
you an astrology app?
Ruby (11:25):
Uhhh... Okay.
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:26):
So here's my case for it. These aren't your grandmother's horoscopes, right?
They're talking to you in this very fresh and fun way. Uh,
they're up to the minute with the latest NASA data.
They look beautiful, and they have a chat feature where
astrologers will chat with you live about your birth charts. Right?
And then by 2019, right, like you can see astrology is
(11:48):
starting to take over. Bumble, this dating app, they start
allowing you to sort your matches by birth signs, so
like you could say, like I only want to date
Tauruses or I only want to date Geminis or whatever.
In fact, astrology in 2019 was a 2.2 billion dollar market.
What do you think about that?
Ruby (12:07):
Mind blown!
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:12):
I can't tell whether you're serious or not, but apps
made forty million dollars that year. And in fact, the
next year, when COVID really hit, people started searching for
birth charts and astrology. Both of those searches hit five
year peaks on Google. So it's no wonder that all
these venture capital funds had started investing in astrology apps
(12:35):
early and then continue to invest... and I'm here to
ask you to invest in my astrology app. What do
you think?
Ruby (12:44):
Um, Anu... I'm spending my money on a skateboard, not
on you.
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:49):
Okay, well, so Ruby, what type of business would you
invest in?
Ruby (12:53):
Bubble guuuuuummmm!
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:57):
[laughing] Okay.
CHAPTER THREE
When you go out with a recorder in hand, it's
interesting to see who will talk on tape. We found scientists
(13:17):
at NASA who actually wouldn't talk about their interest in
astrology to us because they were afraid of losing their jobs.
We found PhDs and post-docs who were worried that if
they talked at all to our podcasts, even to say
that astrology was nonsense, they would face professional repercussions. I mean,
it is insanity what a lightning rod astrology can be.
(13:39):
But luckily we found Jaime Green.
Jaime Green (13:42):
My grandfather showed me a little half of a peanut
that had this germ in it, and he said, that's going
to become a plant. And it was just things like
that that got me interested in the world, which is
the same as being interested in science.
Mangesh Hattikudur (13:55):
Jaime is a celebrated science writer
Jaime Green (13:57):
and I'm Sagittarius, although you would not know it from
looking at anything about my life. I've got some planet
in Capricorn that explains why I'm not an impulsive adventurer.
Mangesh Hattikudur (14:10):
She has a new book coming out called The Possibility
of Life and she's co editor of the annual Best
American Science and Nature writing volumes, and whether it's chatting
about our garden or the way we perceive constellations, her
capacity for wonder is incredible... and infectious. But perhaps what
I love most about Jaime was how she clarified that
(14:32):
science and astrology don't actually have to be at odds
with one another, that we don't need science to disprove astrology.
Not that she thinks astrology is a science exactly scientifically:
Jaime Green (14:45):
In terms of astronomy, astrology doesn't hold a lot of
meaning because it's all very human centric. From the point
of view of looking at the stars from Earth.
Mangesh Hattikudur (14:55):
The stars are light years apart. They have no real
relation to each other except in our minds. But that relationship,
the one we make up while looking up at the stars,
that means something... or it can mean something, if you
want it to.
Jaime Green (15:13):
It's like a much more eloquent, poetic personal fortune cookie.
And I don't mean that disparagingly. I just think that
it's for you to take from it what you need.
And like we don't think it's anti-science to say a
poem is true. I think that's where science gets defensive,
is when people say that astrology is a science and
(15:34):
has physical roots in the stars. It's like, oh, no
it doesn't. But it's true the way a poem is true.
Mangesh Hattikudur (15:41):
I can't tell you how much I love that. I mean,
as someone who's a skeptic but also a romantic, this
idea that astrology is true the same way a poem
is true? That feels right to me. And it's something
my friend Pete also said when I talked to him.
Pete's deal is, well, it's complicated.
Peter Bauer (16:03):
So like even though I was like a semi-successful musician,
I was like, I need to make money somehow, like
right now. Like what other skills do I have? Oh,
I do astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur (16:15):
Pete is a rock star; like a real rock star.
He used to be in The Walkman, that massive seminal
Indie rock band. And yes, his backup career was professional astrology.
When he was younger, he trained with this big famous guru.
(16:37):
He was living in his guesthouse and that's where he
learned to read star charts.
Peter Bauer (16:42):
You would take them back to him and he would
say like, "no, it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard."
Like "you're wrong." You know? And then he kind of,
in very traditional style, like yell-at-the-apprentice sort of thing..."
Mangesh Hattikudur (16:55):
Kung-fu master thing?
Peter Bauer (16:56):
Right. Very very karate kid kind of feeling, right.
Mangesh Hattikudur (17:00):
But here's the other thing
He's a rock star who does astrology for politicians and
World Bank economists and all sorts of interesting folks, but
he doesn't believe in it.
Peter Bauer (17:15):
It's this art to me. And I don't mean that dismissively. Like,
that's like my whole being. Like, that's what I care about.
Mangesh Hattikudur (17:20):
What he believes really is in a more vivid reality,
a kind of embroidered view of the world. Pete and
I both spent formative years in India, and we have
a certain comfort in the magical.
Peter Bauer (17:33):
If you read like a hundred Years of Solitude or
something like that, world of like this kind of magical Columbia.
You know, it's like that felt very similar in a
lot of ways to how we were raised.
Mangesh Hattikudur (17:51):
Magical explanations have been woven throughout my life, like why
was my family's little community in India so well off
a century ago? You could say it's because of luck
or global economics. You could say it's because when the
Civil War was happening in the US, England actually needed
more sources of cotton to replace all the cotton that
(18:12):
the US had been producing. And my family they just
happened to be in the right place to manage mills
and plant cotton on their land. Or you could tell
the story in a way that's way, way more magical:
that a great great ancestor had this powerful vision from
a goddess that if he chanted a simple string of
prayers every single night, and he taught all his children
(18:35):
to sing it, and they taught all their children, his
people would be protected for years. And for most of
my life, I only knew that second story.
(19:05):
CHAPTER FOUR
Arranged marriage has always been this thing that's hard for
me to talk about. When I first moved to Delaware,
kids in my elementary school had all these questions for
me about being Indian, right? Like does your family sleep
on a bed of nails? Can you charm snakes? Just
you know these things they've seen on cartoons? And arranged
(19:28):
marriage was just another one of these questions I'd have
to field... except this one actually bothered me more because
this time I'd have to admit that, "yes, my parents
did have an arranged marriage." And then I'd have to explain.
The thing is, everyone assumed my mom and dad were
like forcibly paired off when they were 9 years old
and then sent away to work and have kids, and
(19:51):
that isn't true. It's like my parents situation was a
little more like Pride and Prejudice. Like, you come from
a good family, your parents want you to marry into
another good family, so they set you up. They make
introductions to certain people, and if you like each other,
(20:11):
they kind of fast-track the marriage, or they make more introductions.
But since this was already super hard to explain, I
just left out the part about astrology, which also plays
a big role in the whole arranged marriage thing. It
was like, I don't know, just too difficult or embarrassing something.
(20:32):
After all, it's it's a weird thing to have to
admit you only exist because of astrology. But I'll let
my mom explain.
Tell me about how your marriage was arranged.
Lalita Hattikudur (20:43):
Oh, that's funny. Okay. Umesh's aunt, Shardakka-- she came to
see Amma because she'd heard that, you know, I was available.
Mangesh Hattikudur (20:55):
I guess this story starts, of course, with two families...
dusting off their kids' horoscopes and handing them off to
a trusted astrologer, not some low-level quack.
Lalita Hattikudur (21:05):
So they matched it, and it matched perfectly.
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:08):
The traditional Indian matching system is way more complicated than
just saying
is supposed to be a union of souls, so the
astrologers inspect all the vagaries of your chart and pressure
test everything like your personalities, your feelings about class and status,
even how a couple's health will be affected by one another.
(21:29):
It's all on a scale of 36 points, and any
match under eighteen points shouldn't be considered. But anything over 32,
that's something you want to lock down immediately.
Lalita Hattikudur (21:40):
My parents want to make sure that the man I married
did not yell at me... so she asked the astrology, you know, how
is his nature? So the astrologer told Amma that he
was a gentle creature you know, never lost his temper.
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:53):
So this part is true
dad yell a handful of times, and most of that
was when our dog Lupini would just race out of
the house, and he would run after her with this
like slice of Kraft singles cheese, just waving it to
try to tempt her back. And it always worked because
(22:14):
she was super greedy.
Lalita Hattikudur (22:16):
But one fault he'd have has never come on time
to the table to have dinner. And we thought it
was a big joke and that came true. We couldn't
believe that astrology could be that powerful to tell a
quirk like that.
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:30):
Wasn't there something else with the mother-in-law?
Lalita Hattikudur (22:32):
The mother-in-law? Yes, they said that I would be best
for a boy that did not have a mother. I
really don't know. They said was something to do with
the stars, and if I had a mother-in-law, it wouldn't
go well. So here Umesh had lost his mother when
he was under a year, I think, or just about
a year. So it was perfect.
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:53):
This is something I think about a lot, how astrology
accounts for everything. My dad had an aaya or a nanny,
but he never had a mother. His life was a
series of hostels and boarding schools, sometimes in cities hundreds
of miles from his home. It makes me sad to
think about. But if his mom had survived, my parents
(23:16):
would never have been together. Astrology would have made sure
of that. Anyway, back to my mom. Even though my
grandmom was working really hard to set her up, my
mom was not keen to get married.
Lalita Hattikudur (23:29):
I wasn't ready. I was still studying and it was
in my final year for master's studying linguistics. I didn't
want to give that up, and I didn't want to
get married that fast. So I felt like a Jersey Cow. I wasn't happy.
And things were really moving faster than I ever expected,
(23:50):
so I said, I'm going to foil this.
Mangesh Hattikudur (23:52):
So, just to get the picture, a typical woman hoping
for a match would be waiting, sitting by her parents,
dressed in a sari or something traditional-- like making a
big show of what a quiet and obedient wife they
could be. And instead...
Lalita Hattikudur (24:08):
I had a mini-skirt on. And I had a Lambretta. I rode
that and came.
Mangesh Hattikudur (24:13):
Oh, and she's also late. Like my mom is the
most punctual person I know. She gets to the airport
three hours ahead of time, and that's since I was
a kid. So she's clearly trying to tank this thing.
Lalita Hattikudur (24:26):
And my hair-- I had let it loose. It was curly and
wasn't done. But instead, you know, Umesh's aunt said
that's no problem. We love modern girls!"
Mangesh Hattikudur (24:36):
What type of woman do you think Ammama was expecting
to present?
Lalita Hattikudur (24:41):
She wanted them to know that I was absolutely sensitive
and very loving, very kind and gentle with everyone, and
an animal lover.
Mangesh Hattikudur (24:50):
But my Grandmam was also incredibly honest, so she was
sure to tell my dad's family this:
Lalita Hattikudur (24:56):
I had no interest in cooking.
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:00):
Anyway, despite my mom's lack of interest in the kitchen
and her dramatic attempt to topple this whole affair, she
somehow still won my dad's family over.
Lalita Hattikudur (25:10):
So Amma said
If you don't like him, it's fine."
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:15):
He was a charming writer.
Lalita Hattikudur (25:16):
He was a charming writer.
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:18):
So they wrote letters back and forth for a year,
and when they finally met in person?
Lalita Hattikudur (25:23):
... you know, he looked so vulnerable that I said, "oh,
this is great. I can handle him."
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:28):
My parents don't have a perfect marriage, but there are
lots of wonderful bits... things that make me think those
32 points mean something. Like once when they were young, they visited Paris,
and they went to dinner at this fancy restaurant with
a ballroom, and an orchestra started playing and no one
was dancing... crickets! So my dad just whisked my mom
(25:51):
onto the dance floor and then slowly everyone in the
place joins in. And when my parents went back to
their table, the band leader had actually sent them this
gorgeous bottle of brandy to say thank you for livening
the place up, and for getting everyone dancing. I mean,
if astrology can promise you those sorts of scenes, it's
like who wouldn't listen?
(26:11):
Of course, astrology has done damage in the family too.
Here's my mom telling me about an arranged marriage gone wrong:
Lalita Hattikudur (26:18):
My cousin Nana. The girl that they looked for the
horoscope matched with him.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:23):
Who's your cousin, Nana?
Lalita Hattikudur (26:24):
Nana from Mangalore. So there was a danger of his
brother dying if the girl married Nana.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:32):
The astrologers predicted that if the couple went through with
the marriage, even though their horoscopes matched, it could lead
to Nana's brother's death. I mean, who wants that on
their hands, even if it's putting your chances for love
at risk.
Lalita Hattikudur (26:47):
So to this day, he still a bachelor.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:49):
Really? Well, what do you think about that?
Lalita Hattikudur (26:54):
It's a shame. Yeah, they could have found other girls,
but he just was dejected. He said no more girls; no more horoscopes. So he's still a bachelor.
Mangesh Hattikudur (27:03):
That's heartbreaking.
Lalita Hattikudur (27:05):
It is really is.
Mangesh Hattikudur (27:18):
After chatting with my mom, two things occurred to me
the chasm between the way Americans and Indians use astrology?
That only felt wider. Like no app was going to
tell you to quit your MBA to marry some guy
in America, or to break it off with this girl
because it could bring bad luck or death to another
family member. Like the starkness of the way Indian astrology
(27:40):
can be used to control lives-- it felt so dark.
But also... pretty intriguing. Like, it only made me want
to dig in more. And the second thing I remembered
is this piece of advice A.J. gave me about really
embracing the show.
A.J. Jacobs (27:58):
I think you gotta go all in. So you've got
to hire an astrologer to help you with the show.
Figure out when you should start; when should the air
date be; who should you hire to help you? Should
it be a Virgo or a Capricorn? Like, go for it,
because that's one way to test it is to see:
(28:18):
does it work for you?
Mangesh Hattikudur (28:20):
So I decided to find an Indian astrologer and solve
both problems. I could lean into my Indian side and
also have some fun with it. But what I didn't
know was that that visit was going to change my life.
(28:50):
CHAPTER FIVE
On April 9th, I headed to Queens to meet an astrologer.
He's someone my friend and showrunner for the show, Mary
recommended that I reached out to. And coincidentally, he happened
(29:10):
to be an astrologer that my cousin Aditya had used.
Hey, Adit.
Aditya (29:13):
Hey, how's it going?
Mangesh Hattikudur (29:14):
How are you?
Aditya (29:14):
Good, good.
Mangesh Hattikudur (29:14):
Adit is another rational type. He's kind of this white-shoe lawyer;
masters from Cambridge. And he used this astrologer in a
difficult time... and apparently the predictions had proven accurate. So
Adit actually wanted to see him again. So I took
a train to Jackson Heights to meet Dr Rakesh Kumar. And we
(29:34):
entered his white wood frame office. From the outside, it's
kind of nondescript. Like this row house. But when you
opened the door, you immediately sensed these temple-like vibes. So
I took off my shoes at the entrance, walked through
a fog of sweet sandalwood, and there were these massive
(29:54):
photos of his guru on the wall. And then I
turned into this tiny room with a wooden desk, and
it had a giant stack of books on it with
a little black laptop on top. Looking around, I realized
how fun this is. I'm here on this field trip
with my cousin, this astrology adventure. And I'm so ready
(30:15):
to hear some ridiculous things and enjoy this experience. Dr
Kumar very sweetly welcomes me. And he closes his emails.
And then, using the information I sent him a few
days before, he pulls up my chart and turns on
his recorder.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (30:33):
So Mangesh, looking at the chart
in Summit, New Jersey. You're born on a Tuesday. You
have the sign cancer rising....
Mangesh Hattikudur (30:44):
I've got to say, I was a little surprised by
how quickly Dr Kumar dives in. It seems like he's
just staring at a bunch of numbers on his screen,
but he's interpreting them, kind of like Neo from the Matrix.
And I'm curious to hear my reading. But what I
really want to do is asked Dr Kumar about the show.
I thought it would be fun if there were these
(31:04):
auspicious dates for my podcast, or if you could predict
something about how many people would listen. But first-- he
had some questions for me.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (31:14):
So how's what been since January?
Mangesh Hattikudur (31:18):
Um, that's when I decided to quit my job.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (31:25):
So either you would have quit your job, or the
job would have quit you. One of those things because
the times are such, because it impacts your karma-chetra, you're work area. It's
so ironic, you come here today. Four days from now-- April 13 onwards,
thereafter a new chapter of your life begins. Another beginning
of your life, which will be very good.
Mangesh Hattikudur (31:46):
This is what I came for. I write down April
13th in my notebook and I circle it big. Four
days from now. That's the date I'm going to get
started on my show.
Dr Kumar continues with more work related things. He says
foreign travel is in the cards, which is super exciting,
and that I should wear an emerald to improve my
(32:07):
communication skills, which is funny. I make a note to
do an episode on gems and vedic astrology down the line.
But the best part is that Dr Kumar seems to
think this whole podcast will go really well:
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (32:21):
So it's very profound. So you'll make it big in life.
You'll be very successful in everything, because your planets show that.
Mangesh Hattikudur (32:28):
I'm so excited about all this tape. Getting a start
date for the show; the talk of gems; this prediction
that everything might go well, that I'm caught off guard
by Dr Kumar's next question, which comes out of nowhere.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (32:41):
Tell me something about your father. Um, like what he did
for work or it still does.
Mangesh Hattikudur (32:49):
He's a chemical engineer. He's retired. He's ill right now.
Listening back, I don't know why I mentioned my dad
was ill. Dr Kumar hadn't asked, and maybe it's because
I was trying to participate fully, like I thought I
should let him know. Years ago my dad was diagnosed
(33:10):
with cancer, but he actually sailed through that treatment and
he's been cancer-free for a while now. But recently he
broke a rib reaching for something, which was odd. And
then he also had this slight boost in some liver counts,
which his doctor told him not to worry about.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar (33:27):
Because that's why I asked again
started a couple of years back, till now, situation doesn't
look good for father. There is risk to father.
Mangesh Hattikudur (33:38):
This thing about my dad? It was a throwaway line
in the middle of an hour and a half interview.
I don't even know how closely I was listening. By
the time we hit stop on the recorder, I was thrilled.
I had over an hour of material and I was
cutting tape my head as I was asking questions. And
I know I felt good. I thanked Dr Kumar for
his time, and I let him run off to feed
(34:00):
his mother lunch, which he does every day. And then
my cousin and I walked off to get fresh dosas
and idlis at one of the many canteens that dot this
area of Jackson Heights.
Aditya (34:14):
Table for two? Thank you.
Mangesh Hattikudur (34:17):
And then twenty minutes into chatting and laughing and debating
what's real about astrology and what isn't and how can
you even tell, right? I received this email from my dad.
It read
the news is not as good as it could be.
(34:40):
We'll talk to the doctors and let you know as soon
as we can. Study results diffuse metastatic disease throughout the
liver and bones from unknown primary.
The cancer had metastasized through my dad's liver and bones.
(35:00):
I don't know what it means, but I've forgotten about astrology.
I don't care about emeralds or whether any of this
feels embarrassing anymore. My stomach drops. I can't finish my chai.
I don't know what to write, so I just tap out:
"I'm so sorry, Dad. I'll call you back in a bit."
(35:24):
And all I'm thinking now is how fast can I
get to Atlanta?
(35:50):
Next week on Skyline Drive, we take a train to
Bay Ridge, meet a therapist who secretly uses astrology behind
her clients' backs, and hang out with a 74-year old
who just wants to know:
Jean (36:02):
Am I ever going to have sex with somebody again?
Mangesh Hattikudur (36:06):
And we use astrology to get her an answer.
Thank you so much for listening. I have so many
people to thank. Skyline Drive is a production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeart Podcasts. The show is hosted and written by
me Mangesh Hattikudur, with a ton of help, like SO MUCH HELP from
(36:28):
these wonderful people. Mary Phillips-Sandy is our cat-loving supervising producer.
Mitra Bonshahi produced this whole thing, despite my constantly getting
in the way. Mark Lotto is our incredible story editor
who even suffered a trip to India with me. This
episode was mixed by my pal at Soundboard with scoring
from Botany. The song Yo la Mango is my absolute favorite. Um,
(36:52):
the insane music in between is courtesy of Azadi Records,
Himanshu Suri and Peter Matthew Bauer. If you want to
hear more, we made you a mixtape, just check out
the show notes. Additional production and research support from the
wonderful Anna Rubinova, Dhruv Shiva Rao, Lucas Reilly, Bethanne Macaluso, Aditya Basrur,
(37:13):
and my wonderful wife Lizzie Jacobs. There's also my superstar
Aunt Suman "the Woman" Bakshi, and my cousin Arjun Bakshi who helped me
out of a giant pinch abroad. The show is executive
produced from iHeart by my good pal Nikki Ettore and Katrina Norvell.
This show would not have happened without the support of
my friends at Kaleidoscope, starting with my good pal Oz Woloshyn,
(37:37):
who believed in this show. He's also my partner at Kaleidoscope.
Also Kate Osborne for her spot-on notes, Costas Linos, for
his encouragement and Vahini Shori for her delightful suggestions. I
also want to give a little special thanks to all
the kiddos who bore with us through this production
Lu and Little Enzo Ettore. All my friends at iHeart,
(38:00):
including Bob, Conal, Will, Carrie, Nathan, Jason, Jeri, my New
York and Atlanta Crews. There are too many to name.
Also Shanta, Saurabh, my family in India, my family in the States,
my friend Noel Brown who read this episode's warning... Check
out his shows
You To Know. And just one last thank you
(38:21):
my Amma and my dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur, who I
thank my lucky stars for. Thank you so much for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.