The Hidden Relationship Trap: How Negative Narratives Sabotage Love with Jillian Turecki

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
People love to play the blame game in a relationship,
and we're projecting all the time. We'll blame a partner
for not making us feel enough when not enough is
how we felt entering the relationship.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't

(00:41):
have instead of what we do. We think things that
hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
the right direction, feed their good wolf.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
What if the way you see yourself, the stories you
tell about who you are, aren't just shaping your relationships
but sabotaging them. We walk through life convinced that our
version of reality is the reality. But what if it's not.
What if the reason you keep ending up in the
same arguments the same heartbreaks, the same lonely places isn't

(01:26):
because of what's happening to you, but because of the
narratives running inside you. Today's guest, Jillian Tareki, is a
relationship coach who spent two decades helping people rewrite their
emotional stories, and in this conversation, she says something that
really stopped me. She says, we blame a partner for
not making us feel enough when not enough is how

(01:47):
we felt entering the relationship. Yes, sit with that one
for a second. In this episode, we're breaking down the
mental loops that keep us stuck in unhealthy dynamics, whether
that's in our romantic relationships, our friendships, or even with ourselves.
We'll talk about self awareness, accountability, and why the thoughts
we don't question have the most power over us. So,

(02:09):
if you've ever wondered why you keep attracting the same
kinds of relationships or why your inner critic always has
a microphone stick around, I'm Eric Zimmer. This is the
one you feed and this one might just change how
you see yourself and everyone around you. Hi, Jillian, Welcome
to the show.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Hi Eric, so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. You have a
new podcast called Jillian on Love, which is all about relationships,
and I'm excited to dive into your work and relationships
and communication and lots of different things. But before we
do that, we'll start, like we always do, with the parable.
There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say,
in life, there are two wolves inside of us that

(02:49):
are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
others a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and
hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about
it for a second and looks up at their grandparents says, well,
which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.
So I'd like to start off by asking you what

(03:10):
that parable means to you in your life and in
the work that you do.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Wow, there's so much I can say about this right now.
I think that in many ways, our minds are like battlefields,
and if we believe all our thoughts, which is what
we usually do, we suffer immensely. But if we were
to not believe all our thoughts, and you know, as

(03:38):
corny as it sounds, but listen more to our hearts,
our instincts, or intuition, however you want to call it,
then we will lead much more content lives. I also
think that there's darkness that lives inside of all of us,
and that darkness is reflected by the quality of our thoughts,

(04:00):
of a lot of our thoughts, not all our thoughts.
You know, the mind, like I said, can be a battlefield.
It can be a very dark place. And if we
were to which we do, this is what we do.
Believe a thought which then turns into a narrative, which
then becomes a chapter, which then becomes a story, which

(04:25):
then becomes an entire saga. We can believe that the
stories and the sagas that tell us that, you know,
we suck, or we're not good enough, or that person's
not good enough, you know, playing the blame game. Or
we can believe a story that is looking at the
same situation or the same person or the same circumstance

(04:46):
through a different lens and see a completely different story.
And we decide which story or which narrative we're going
to give more energy to. So the feeding is our
attention and our energy. That's how I see it. And
as far as the work that I do, I'm always

(05:10):
helping people do basically one of two things. Overcome the
negative stories and thoughts that they have about themselves, and
also overcoming in negative thoughts and stories they have about
their partner if they're in a relationship, or about men,
or about women, or about just relationships in general. So

(05:33):
I'm always helping people mitigate the dark and the light
sides within themselves. And I think that that's really the
perpetual battle. It's almost like the cana and Abel that
lives within all of us.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
So that's how I see it.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
Listener, as you're listening, what resonated with you in that?
I think a lot of us have some ideas of
things that we can do to feed our good wolf.
And here's a good tip to make it more likely
that you do it. It can be really helpful to
reflect right before you do that thing on why you
want to do it. Our brains are always making a
calculation of what neuroscientists would call reward value. Basically, is

(06:14):
this thing worth doing? And so when you're getting ready
to do this thing that you want to do to
feed your good Wolf. Reflecting on why actually helps to
make the reward value on that higher and makes it
more likely that you're going to do that. For example,
if what you're trying to do is exercise, right before
you're getting ready to exercise, it can be useful to
remind yourself of why. For example, I want to exercise

(06:38):
because it makes my mental and emotional health better today.
If you'd like a step by step guide for how
you can easily build new habits that feed your good wolf,
go to Goodwolf dot me, slash change and join the
free masterclass. I'm struck by you saying that, you know,
we have a thought that becomes I don't remember your

(06:59):
exact sequence, but a thought that becomes a narrative, which
becomes a chapter, which becomes a book, which becomes you
a whole series of books. Right, this idea of how
in the Buddhist tradition they think the word for this
is papancha. Right, you start with a thought like popcorn.
But the more we think these things, the more embedded
they become. And it is very true that a lot

(07:20):
of our dynamic in relationship is driven by what the
beliefs we have about ourselves and about other people to
your point, whether it's about men in general or women
in general or our specific partner, you know, it does
get very embedded, and trying to determine the difference between Okay,

(07:41):
I'm actually seeing the truth here and looking out for
myself and taking care of myself, or I am imposing
a story that's not true on a relationship is difficult
to sort out.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
I think, oh, yeah, it's very difficult. Hence why people
hire coaches exactly because we're objective and we can look
at it. But that being said, I think that it's
very illuminating when we recognize in ourselves, whether that's through
the help of someone else or not, when our minds

(08:15):
really get the best of us, and when we get
caught in this whole story. Man, how many times have you, like,
I mean, I know I've been in this position many
times where it's like, maybe I'll be like not in
a great state, right, maybe i will be insecure about
something that's going on in my life, or I'm tired, right,
I'm just not like I'm not feeling great psychically, emotionally, physically,

(08:40):
and then someone will look at me a certain way
and I'll interpret it to be like oh, they don't
like me anymore, or they're thinking this, or they're thinking that.
And then we go into like you said, like the
popcorn going out, say this is within the context of
a relationship, and then you don't communicate about it, and
then you start to stew in your own soup of

(09:03):
a story about it, and really that interpretation that you
had was totally wrong. We're actually so off the mark.
And I think that when we have that recognition of, oh,
my god, my mind, like I really create so many stories,
that's a huge breakthrough moment because that's when we can

(09:24):
actually for ourselves be able to mitigate when our minds
are getting the best of us. It's like, Okay, hold on,
I might be in a story right now, I might
be totally misreading this right now, what is this really about?
So that's ultimately what we have to do, have to do,
have to become very practiced and skilled at doing especially

(09:46):
if you want to be in a romantic relationship, like
you better really work on that skill.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yep, yep. Two things come to mind. One is there
was a communication program style book called Crucial Communications. It
came out number of years ago. I loved it, but
there was one thing about it that I thought was
really great, and what it said basically was, when it
comes to what your partner did, you want to start
by what could actually be captured on a camera or

(10:14):
on a tape recorder, What would anybody observe in it
actually see everything past that? Now you're in the land
of interpretation, right, And I think that's a really great
way of saying, Okay, well, the fact is he didn't
take out the trash, right like I see it. I
can see it on camera. The trash did not go out.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Now from there, I'm going to go into interpretations like
he's so forgetful and oh, no big deal, or she
just doesn't respect me and care about me. I mean right.
We branch off from there. And then the second thing
that came to my mind is you were talking is
I was thinking about how and I've been here that
by the time a couple decides they need help, there

(10:56):
has been such an entrenchment of these stories and patterns.
It's like, if we were to start working on that
not telling ourselves stories way earlier in the game, it's
really hard to fix. And I'm in a relationship now
that is really wonderful and we've done that. From the beginning.
We both were very clear, but I've been in other

(11:18):
relationships where we didn't and by the time we were like, oh,
this thing's kind of broken, right, it was so hard
to not believe the story, and our dynamic reinforced it right,
and our dynamic reinforced it over and over.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's spot on. Sometimes the web is so incredibly complicated,
and like you said, sometimes it is about not taking
out the trash. Oftentimes the trash is a metaphor for
years of hurt and maybe feeling slighted or betrayed, or
unheard or unseen, and it can be Yeah, it can

(11:52):
be incredibly tricky to unravel, and I think when it
comes to that kind of situation, that's when you really
need third party help. You said that you and your
partner do this sort of preemptively, which is great, and
that's part of the reason why I do what I do,

(12:12):
is that, whether you're single or not, you want to
go into a relationship with as many tools in your
toolbox as you possibly can have so that you can
start to work preemptively. Because people they get annoyed, they
don't say anything, or they say anything and maybe it's
not met with the response that they're hoping from their partners.

(12:34):
So then they learn, well, next time, I'm just not
going to say anything whatever. Then they build a whole
lot of resentment. And then once you build resentment, there's
a lot of resistance. Right. So it's like those couples
where it's gotten to the point where it's broken. They're
in such a state of resistance towards one another, like
they're not in any way opening their hearts. They're not open.

(12:55):
Everything is like a big stop sign. There's like a
stop sign in front of their heart. Their minds they
are like, I do not enter right, And so they
become so resistant to one another. And the only way
that a couple would be able to find themselves to
find each other again is if they really really wanted to,

(13:19):
and then if they got third party help. But you
really have to want to, but it's hard because you know,
usually these couples they come into the room and even
though they're not saying this, what their subconscious is saying
for sure is you know, fix them, Fix them so
I can continue to be in a relationship with them.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
Ye change them so I don't have to leave this Yep,
and it's always the biggest and roughest pill to swallow
when it's like, no, actually, the problem's also you totally.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
And that's something you talk about in your first episode
of your show. Is this idea that the common thread
through all of our past relationships is us say a
little more about that.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, So sometimes you'll be in a relationship with someone
who like just quite frankly sucks. But it's not your pattern. Like,
you don't have a pattern of just having tough relationships.
You don't have a pattern of like dating people who
are mean to you. You just have you know, you
have a one off, you know, and it doesn't last

(14:26):
that long. Okay, maybe in that situation there's always something
you can find responsibility for. But in that situation you
get be like, Okay, I like chemistry, get the best
of me. I got attracted whatever I was going through
a hard time, I was lonely, I you know, lowered
my standard and here we are. But the truth of
the matter is, even if you've been in a relationship

(14:47):
or a marriage for thirty years, anything that's not working
in that relationship has one hundred percent to do with
each person. Yep, it's not even fifty to fifty, it's
one hundred percent. And then if you have a pattern,
and like let's say you're chronically single, or you keep
dating the wrong people, you keep having these hurtful situations.
You can continue to blame men, you can continue to

(15:10):
blame women. You can continue to blame your mom or
your dad, you can blame your childhood all you want.
It's not that you would necessarily be wrong, but that's
not going to get you what you want.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
I love that change. That's really good. Yeah, I love
that idea. It's not that it's wrong, it's just not
a very useful strategy. It's not very skillful strategy, right,
And recognizing the harms that have been done to us,
the things that have impacted us, is useful to recognize
what they are, to unlearn them. But to your point,

(15:45):
you know it can't end there.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
No, it can't end there. And you know it's interesting
because I've I've worked with so many different people. You know,
some people I've worked with, like, for example, they'll just
keep dating the mentally ill drug addict who doesn't do
any work on themselves, like isn't in therapy, isn't medicated
for that isn't actually like on a good path, you know,

(16:09):
and then people will think, oh, you know, poor you.
You're in these relationships with these horrible people, and it's like, no,
when you look more carefully, like most quote unquote toxic
unhealthy relationships, both people are behaving pretty badly within it.
So you know, they'll keep dating that person and then
they'll they'll make the discovery. Like in therapy. You know,

(16:33):
your mom had postpartum when she had you, so she
was depressed for the first you know, two years of
your life, which is so important, and she was an alcoholic.
So you make these like connections and hopefully, if you're
with a skilled enough therapist, you're actually working to make
peace with your past, not just to understand your past,
not to just have insight into your trauma, not just

(16:55):
to be aware of your trauma, but to actually make
peace with it. But then those people then come to
me because they're like, Okay, I know all this, but
I'm still doing this, and it's like, okay, well, then
you need to take responsibility. You keep choosing them. It's
not mom's fault anymore. You know, you're not a traumatized
little child anymore. You are attracted to them, and you

(17:17):
have to recondition yourself to be attracted to other people.
You have to make it absolutely non negotiable. They don't
date anyone. Let's say I'm just using as an example,
who's a drug addict or something like that. And the
people who really invested their time and their emotions and
their money in themselves and in me and our work together,

(17:37):
they take my advice and guess what, they're all happy now.
But most people, actually, no, that's not true. Not most,
but a fair amount of people will they don't want
to do what it takes to change, so they keep
repeating the same cycle with the same kind of partner,
feeling more and more like they'll either think, oh, there's

(17:59):
just something wrong with them, or just to bring this
full circle to the narratives that we have in our head,
they'll just chalk it up to I'm damaged, I'm broken.
This is how I am ye. And it's like both
are cop outs, and because taking responsibility for your love
life is not about blaming yourself, because then you're not

(18:19):
actually taking responsibility. If you're like I'm broken, that's literally
you saying I'm not going to do anything about this,
and So my job and what my passion is is
to help people to feel empowered, to understand that they
can make a change. If it means you have to
like date different types of people, or a lot of

(18:40):
people have to learn how to love themselves so that
they can actually be with someone who wants to love
them too, because if you don't love yourself, you're just
going to push that person away.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
And I think what you're saying there is really important
is we can go to therapy and get a lot
of insight. And I really like what you say. It's
not just understanding why, it's making peace with the past,
healing what we can can from the past. My experience
is even after that work is done, there is still
the moment of the thing happening. So the example I
often use is, I know why if I'm around an

(19:12):
older man, an authority figure, I want to hide under
the table, Right. I know why because I had a
very angry father. Right, he just was not in the
best period of his life and got it. I made
peace with it, healed it. I still find myself in
that situation and the conditioning is still there. I find
myself the fear starting to come up now I've gotten

(19:34):
a little bit better where I can now in the moment, know, okay,
settle down, You're okay. But it's those moments that we
have to sort of dig into, and I think that's
what coaches can do well. You know, if it's done well,
what do you do in that moment, because that's when
it happens. You know, It's like if you've got to
tie yourself to the mast, you know, so you're not

(19:56):
dragged off by the drug addict sirens, right, You've got
to find a way to do that.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, So like, for example, it would just be like
in that moment, so the self awareness is like, okay,
this is happening, and then you want to go directly
to your body. Okay, this is what's happening in my
body right now, Like my stomach feels tight, I'm starting
to perspire a little bit, I'm feeling stressed. And then
you can actually just start to use your breath to
relax your body and be like, Okay, there is a

(20:23):
conditioned neural pathway response right now that my nervous system
is reacting to, but it's not real ye. So that
would be like sort of like a self soothing moment
when it comes to the attraction and relationship, this is
where it's a little bit different because it requires, well

(20:47):
requires two things. Like anything else, human beings are much
more motivated to make change once they've been in enough pain.
We're very motivated by pain. So that's like the whole
concept behind a rock bottom. It's like when the pain
of being this kind of relationship or this kind of partner,
when that pain becomes so overbearing that you would rather

(21:10):
be like alone for the rest of your life than
with that person or in that kind of relationship, that's
when you're really right to make some changes. But it's
practice and it's also the wisdom, and it takes a
certain level of maturity and growing up inside and wanting
better things for your life to say, yeah, I'm actually

(21:32):
really attracted to someone who says who does what they
say they're going to do, versus the person who's always
letting me down. Like, for example, there could be lots
of people that I'm you know, lots of men for example,
that I'm attracted to, but I register it as trouble,
so I don't even go there because I don't want

(21:54):
the trouble. But also, when you change yourself inside, when
you really recondition yourself and you let yourself be around
certain people who treat you well or who are more
aligned with you than over time, you start to say, Okay,
I'm more attracted to this now. And so there is
a part of growing up that tends to happen. And

(22:16):
you know, people come to me because they're ready, and
if they're not ready, then not much change happens. You know.
It's it's just like the bottom line, and some people
change really quickly, and some people are really slow to change,
and sometimes they just have to go through it. They
just have to get burned really bad until they say, okay, no,
not another moment, I'm not doing this anymore.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
An interesting phenomenon I've noticed is you have a bad
relationship that ends and you're in a lot of pain,
and you're like, Okay, I'm going to do a lot
of inner work on myself. I'm going to change this
so it never happens again. And what's happened with me
is I do that, and I do make progress, but
there's only so much of it I can do out
of relationship. I think I'm not going to fall for
that one again, or I'm not going to do that again,

(22:58):
or I'm not going to react like that again. And
it's easy to say that when I'm sitting in my
therapist's office or and I'm sitting at home writing in
my journal. Then throw me into a relationship and I'm like, Okay,
now this is a little different because I think your
pain point is a really good one. We're in pain,
so we start doing this work. Then we meet somebody

(23:20):
and we're no longer in pain, we feel great, and
then slowly the normal patterns subtly reassert themselves and you
find yourself kind of back in the same place again.
And so yeah, I was just grateful that this time
around for me with my partner, we both kind of
from the very beginning, we're like, okay, we both have
really screwed this up in the past a bunch of times.

(23:40):
Let's really talk about each other's patterns and understand what
they are, and you know, really try and work with
them from the beginning, and it has made a tremendous difference.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, that's beautiful. It's an interesting paradox. It's like sometimes
some people really need to take a time out and
to work on themselves, because that's like that moment where
you're like, oh boy, maybe it is me. Ye, that's
the moment. It's like maybe it is me, and look,
everyone's different. It depends on the severity of the pattern,
depends on the severity of the pain, Like you might

(24:12):
have to get yourself to a therapist, or you might
just have to you know. Maybe it's just like watching
a bunch of people on Instagram or reading a bunch
of books, or listening to people's podcast, whatever it is.
But there is no greater education than the education of
a relationship. And single is really easy. I mean, there's
so many people who want obviously they want love, they

(24:33):
want to be in a relationship, but that's when the
work begins. It's easy to be on top of your
game when you're single, but when you're in a relationship,
it's a giant mirror and it's going to show you
where you're like, ah, there's that thing again. But the
difference is that you always have a choice to react
or respond differently. And then when you become more accountable,

(24:55):
you will mess up like you're inner teenager, your inner
three year old will come out, or you'll be totally
selfish or totally insecure or whatever. It is, you'll cling,
or you'll be cold, whatever it is, but you own
it much more quickly, and you say, oh my god,
I am so sorry. That is me, that is not you.
I'm not going to do that again. And like, really
owning it is so huge. Some people will have to

(25:17):
take a time out from being in a relationship because
they have lost themselves so much that they have to
rediscover the self. But then this is the paradox. It's
like you want to find yourself and connect to yourself
so that you can learn how to lose yourself again,
but more appropriately, like in a relationship, not lose yourself

(25:38):
in the codependent way, but make it so that it's
not just all about you and developing the self, but
now it's about you and figuring out how to be
in relationship.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
So let's talk about relationships. There are some different things
that you talk about, and one is you talk about
medicine for relationships. You've got a few different points that
you think are really important in a relationship.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Well, accountability is medicine for a relationship, and that's really
just owning your part. I mean, people love to play
the blame game in a relationship, and we're projecting all
the time, will blame a partner for not making us
feel enough, when not enough is how we felt entering
the relationship. We'll blame them for not paying attention to us,

(26:23):
when really we're not paying attention to ourselves. So accountability,
being responsible for our lives, being responsible for how we act,
that's medicine. I mean, it really really is. You're in
a long term relationship and it's lasting years, Like we
unconsciously break each other's hearts all the time, like we're
gonna do that, So that's really really important that we're accountable.

(26:45):
I'm not sure if I wrote this in the blueprint,
but forgiveness is also medicine for a relationship. You know.
Obviously there's some things that are unforgivable and that's for
certain people to have to figure out. But what's their
like personal stand under it. But like I said, we're
going to mess up with each other a lot, so
we have to be able to forgive because if there's

(27:07):
nothing worse than being with someone who's constantly holding a
grudge for everything, you know, So forgiveness is medicine. The
truth is medicine. And this is what I mean, And
this goes back to what we were talking about in
the beginning of this conversation, which is that things get
so messy to the point of broken because of the

(27:28):
elephants that have been in the room for so long
that no one is talking about, no one's having the
difficult conversations. People are internalizing stuff, they're creating stories. Then
all of a sudden, you're in a situation where throwing
out the trash is a metaphor for ten years of
struggle and pain as opposed to just throwing out the trash.

(27:49):
And so that's so important. But also because I work
with a lot of people who struggle with their self
worth in relationships, so they struggle to actually say the
truth because they're so scared to rock the boat. And
even if you don't necessarily struggle with your self worth,
like people are really afraid that if they tell the

(28:10):
truth that their relationship will dissolve, or if they tell
the truth to the person that they've been on two
dates with, that person will no longer want to be
with them. And yet it's the truth that's medicine for
a relationship, because if you're dating someone and you're honest
with them about something in your life and they then
decide they don't want to be with you. That's actually

(28:32):
medicine because you don't want to end up with that person.
It's going to be a disaster. So you never want
to have to lie to keep your relationship, and you
have to have the tough conversations. You can't avoid the
elephant in the room. You got to like, look at it,
point out it, point it out, name it, and make
it go away.

Speaker 5 (29:04):
M m m m m m m mm hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmm.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
What you just said struck me is you know how
much in my life I tried to be somebody else
in order to get the partner that I thought that
I wanted. You know, so I'd meet somebody I'm attracted
to and I would think, in my mind, but what
is it that they're going to like? And so I'm
going to be that. I'm going to do more of that.
And that is a losing bargain because either a it

(30:00):
doesn't work because you're not authentic, or even worse, it
does work, and now you're in a relationship where you're
expected to be a way that you're not. And that's
a tough road to go. And you know, as I
got a little bit older, just starting to realize, like, wait,
you know what I want is somebody who likes me,
loves me. But the only way they're going to do

(30:21):
that is if they see me, the actual me, right,
And so I love that line. Don't ever lie to
save your relationship, right, because it's causing trouble for yourself
and your partner. You say that it's possible to be
kind and truthful, be both, Sometimes that seems like it's
hard to do both. Are there any circumstances in which

(30:41):
you are untruthful?

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yes? Okay, so, and this is you know, obviously this
could ruffle some people's feathers, but sometimes a white lie
is actually compassionate. This would be an example, Honey, do
I look fat today? No, babe, you look great? But
maybe that person's thinking, yeah, maybe you did gain a
few pounds, but like, do they really have to tell?

Speaker 2 (31:02):
Right?

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Let's pause there, though, because I think there's something important
in this, right, which is I agree, and yet let's
change genders so we ruffle less feathers. A man says, honey,
do I look fat to you today? Right? And she says, no,
you look great, but she's thinking, yeah, you know, really
you've kind of let yourself go the last five years,
and I'm just not as attracted to you as I
used to be, you know. Like, so there's a little

(31:26):
white lie. That's also there's a bigger thing growing underneath that. Potentially,
now maybe there's not, but let's let's talk about where
there is. What do you do in a situation like that?

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Okay? So I believe that people are saying, I want
this amazing relationship. I want a conscious relationship. We don't
live in a time anymore where it's like I stay home,
I cook an eye clean, and they go out and
you know, make money and come home, like those sort
of roles that's considered now moral fashion in these days.

(32:02):
So people are looking for like these incredible connections and relationships.
And I always say, okay, you want that hold each
other accountable. And what I mean by that is if
you find that your partner is straying from their path,

(32:22):
and maybe that's the path of physical health, mental health.
I think that what you would say is you wouldn't
say the white lie would be you withholding I'm not
that attracted to you anymore, But the truth would be hey,
like I know that, or honey, or whatever that you know,

(32:42):
whatever you call your significant other, maybe it's by their name.
But I know you're not feeling that great about yourself.
But I think it's because used to really like eat well.
I think it's time we should get a little healthier.
I'll do it with you. But you know you're kind
of like, come on, let's get it together, let's get
healthy again. It's like it's important, and you could even
depending on the conversations that you've had in the beginning

(33:04):
of the relationship. It's like, no, like, physical fitness is
really important to me. You know this, You agree with me.
Let's get back on track. So that's how you would
bring it up. Yeah, instead of I'm gonna be really really,
really honest with you, like your belly is grossing me out,
or like I'm just not attracted you because you're overweight, Like, yeah,

(33:27):
that would be really honest. Is it necessary? I don't
think so.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
What about situations where a partner has a behavior that
you don't like. Let's just say your partner is a
cigarette smoker and you have hit a point in your
life where you're really focused on health and you recognize, like, geez,
that's really destructive and I mean, I'm really scared for you,
and you've had conversations with that person in a respectful

(33:54):
and kind and decent way, and that person just doesn't
really want to change. How do you make peace with
that sort of thing? I mean, I think that's a
particularly tricky one. If you're a mother and you've got
two kids and your husband is a smoker, and you're like,
he's increasing the chances that he's going to have lung
cancer and not be here to marry him exactly, So
I'm not ready to blow the marriage up over this thing, right,

(34:17):
How do I make peace with something like that?

Speaker 1 (34:19):
I think that we're going to have to make peace
with a lot of things about the person we're in
a relationship over the years, because we cannot change someone.
And I think, no, I know that the biggest problems
come from two things that are related to each other. One,
people trying to change each other. And two and this

(34:41):
is all unconscious, mostly unconscious people over relying on their
partner to make them happy. So it's like people are
always like coming to the therapy office, the coach's office, whatever,
and they say, change them, change them so I can
be happier, Change them, so that I can be more content,
change them so I can feel more secure. There's always

(35:02):
going to be things that we're going to have to
live with in someone else. And if it's something that
you decide you cannot live with, then it can turn
into an ultimatum. And that's fine. But then know that
you're going to be blowing Is it worth it to you?
Are you going to be blowing the relationship up? I
really do think that you can enter a relationship with

(35:22):
the expectation that there is going to be growth and
that you want your partner to be able to go
and you want to grow together and all of that.
But some people grow at different speeds. It's very tricky
territory when you get into a relationship with someone thinking
but they'll change, they'll grow. No, don't do that. Don't

(35:43):
fall in love with potential. You have to really fall
in love with the person as if they're never going
to change. But if the relationship is long enough, there's
going to be certain you change, and then all of
a sudden you're like, yeah, I was okay with the
cigarette smoking, now I'm not. But you can't change him
or her. You cannot change them. You can say, like

(36:03):
I really don't like this, but at some point you're
gonna have to say I am going to accept this.
I don't like it, but I'm gonna accept it. Or
if it's another behavior like that's really like dysfunctional for
the relationship, you say this has to change. Tell me
what you need from me to help you change? How

(36:24):
can I help you help yourself? And I think that
that's a question that a lot of people don't ask
the person they're in a relationship with, like you want
them to change or behavior, Well, guess what. Oftentimes that
behavior is largely dependent on something that you're doing that
they're reacting to. So if you want them to change

(36:44):
your behavior, this is this is other than cigarette smoking.
This would be something, you know, something that they do.
Maybe they shut down, or maybe they get clingy, or
maybe they yet whatever it is, it's like you're part
of a dynamic. So if they're doing something, rest assured
they're doing it in response to something that you're doing.
So ask them, how can I change to help you change?

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Yep, I think you're right. I think in any relationship
you are trying to figure out what things can I
live with and what things can't I. You know, so
you know, a question a lot of people have is
a lot of people stay stay in this place for
a long time, and I think it's a really painful
place to be, which is should I stay or should

(37:25):
I go? I feel like that that state on its
own is a purgatory to be there, you know, And
so it seems like a better approach would be to
get clear on okay, this is okay, this isn't. I
at least am, you know, making the best decision I
can make now, And for now it's stay or But
I know you have some questions to ask, you know,

(37:46):
if you're in that phase.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Well, first, before I get into the questions, it's like
some things are just wrong. Like obviously, if you're any
in any kind of abusive situation, you need to get out.
I also think that sometimes it's very clear and to
end something, it's like you're just with someone you guys
are not right for each other. So sometimes it's very
very obvious. But if you're in a longer term relationship,

(38:09):
or you're in a relationship that's been very important to you,
you've invested a lot of your time, a lot of
your energy, maybe you have kids together, like you love
this person, it's an important relationship to you, but it's
been painful. The question to ask yourself is it's alarming
to me the amount of people that I have met

(38:32):
with when they're talking about the person that they're in
a relationship with, and I ask them, do you know
what it is that they need? Like what they're really
like their core needs are, Like what is it that
they need that maybe you're not giving them, or what
is it that they need? In general? They have no
idea how to answer that question. And I think you

(38:54):
if you're like in a very very bonded relationship where
in other words, breaking up will have a lot of consequences,
Like it's a big decision, it's a big decision emotionally
and all that. Like, you better not be leaving that
until you can answer that question and until you actually
try to meet their needs. Because when a relationship goes south,
there are very few things other than like health, money,

(39:17):
and relationship. When those things go south, they create a
tremendous amount of stress. Like work could be amazing, your
health could be amazing. Your relationship not going well, you
are going to be waking up in a cold sweat.
They're going to be unhappy. It's like really really almost
impossible to be unhappy when your relationship is in dire straits.

(39:37):
So when that happens, we go into sort of like
a fight or flight and so we become obsessed with
ourselves and what I mean by that, we get obsessed
with our own needs. We're in survival mode. We're constantly
judging and evaluating our partner based on how well or

(39:57):
or how not well they're meeting our needs, and we're
never really evaluating how we're meeting their needs. And this
goes back to the accountability part. If you can't see
your part in what has broken down, then that's a problem.
And also like you have to really try to repair it.

(40:19):
But a lot of people try to repair their relationship
but they don't know how to well. The first step
is owning and acknowledging your role in the dysfunction and
then learning how to meet their needs, like figure out
what their needs are, what do they need to feel love?
Like what are they missing from you? And give that
and if you don't get anything in return, then you

(40:42):
have like some answers for you. First, like step out
of that survival mode ego state and just start to
give So that's really important. This is under a large
umbrella of accountability, which is like the main you know
why that the first episode of the podcast was based
on that. You know, ask yourself, like, what are these

(41:03):
psychological and emotional barriers that I have that's preventing me
from being close with this person? Like what resistance have
I had? How have I had the like do not
enter sign at my heart all this time? You know?
What are my barriers? What's my fear of intimacy? You know?
How have I actually like, have I actually communicated? Have

(41:26):
I told the truth? Or have I been just carrying
around this resentment or this lie or this series of lies.
So those are some really important key questions to ask yourself.
And a really important one is if everything were to change,
Like if you were to actually get the needs met

(41:46):
that you weren't getting met in the last year or
however long you've been having trouble, if it were all
the change, if they were to say okay, I'm going
to change and they change, would you still want them?

Speaker 3 (41:57):
It's such a good question. It's such a good question
because the cruelest thing I think is to be like,
well I need you to do X Y, and Z,
and they then start really working to do X, Y
and Z, and you're like, not good enough. Like that
feels really like it feels tough. I mean these situations
are like you said, I think health, money, and relationships,

(42:18):
Like if one of them is way off, it is
really difficult. There is a dark cloud over a portion
of your life, for sure. Absolutely under this medicine idea.
There's a couple other ones and a really important one.
I just want to read something you wrote. You said,
there's one pattern that I see in one hundred percent
of all the couples I've worked with a lack of
genuine appreciation of one another. Talk more about appreciation.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
So we meet someone and we start seeing them, and
we start to fall in love and we're in lust.
And really when we think of them as like we
see them as like this miracle. It's like, you know,
angel that's come into our lives and kind of see
them as a miracle, and we appreciate them so much,

(43:00):
and then the law of familiarity sets in and all
of a sudden, that person who you once thought was
a gift you're taking for granted and we stop really
appreciating the person for what it is that they do
for us, what it is that they do for others.
Whereas like taking each other for granted would be the poison,

(43:22):
learning to appreciate each other is the medicine. But it's
not just saying I appreciate you and thank you. It's
like really feeling it in your heart, you know, like
really feeling it and acknowledging it. And we lose that.
And if we lose that, or we get out, I
should say, we get out of the habit of appreciation

(43:43):
and into the habit of taking each other for granted.
If that gets deep enough, if appreciation is really lacking
and lacking for a long time, then couples then start
to have like contempt for one another. And you know,
John Gotman talks about that a lot. But once there's contentment, monce,
there's contempt. It's over. When you're like, I can't appreciate

(44:07):
a single thing this person does. In fact, everything they
do makes my stomach flip in a bad way. It's over.

Speaker 5 (44:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yeah, I don't know if it was John Gotman who
came up with this statistic. I've heard and again, whether
it's the statistics exactly accurate or not, it's not important.
It points directionally to a truth, which is for a
relationship to flourish, it takes five positive things that you
say to someone for every negative thing that you say
to them. Right, So, again, maybe it's not five to one,

(44:35):
maybe it's three to one, but it points to you
need more positive You need to be saying more positive
things to your partner than negative. Yes, I've been in
relationships where that is an exact inverse. For every one
positive thing, there are at least five negative things. And yeah,
that's not a good place to be.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
No, But then you have to ask yourself, well, why
does that happen? Well, it happens because our minds get
crazy and we start to create stories, and then we
start to project all our stuff where we unconsciously depend
on our partner to rescue us, to make us happy,
and then when they don't, we resent them, when we
hate them. We are unconsciously trying to change each other

(45:13):
all the time, and then we also become very complacent.
We take the relationship for granted, so instead of trying
to proactively create positive memories together, we are instead just
sitting on the couch and just letting life happen to us,
instead of actually trying to create a life between us,
and then all that combined. Next thing, you know, you're

(45:36):
having ten negative moments compared to the one positive moment.
That's why it happens.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
You talk about this idea, you say, we all have
an emotional home. It's an emotional destination we go to
habitually when we've been triggered by a circumstance. Even though
we all experience all kinds of emotion, there is always
a place where we go on the regular under stress.
Talk to me about that idea and why that's important

(46:24):
in working more skillfully in relationship.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah. So, one of the things that I really loved
about my training under Tony Robbins and my mentor one
of my mentors, Cloy Madonna's, is that the role of emotions,
it's a huge part in our story, it's a huge
part in our relationships. And so in a relationship where

(46:50):
we have to be responsible for our behavior regardless of
what our childhoods were like, but we also have to
be responsible for our emotional patterns. And the thing is
is that a lot of us live in chronic states
of stress, and under stress, people usually go into a

(47:16):
pattern that's been with them for a really long time.
Some people get angry. Some people vacillate between depression and anxiety,
like they go back and forth. So, for example, if
you're stressed out, and let's say your pattern when you're
stressed is to numb yourself with drugs or alcohol or
some people like we're always I mean, you know, we're

(47:38):
numbing ourselves all the time, you know, or to numb
ourselves like through scrolling through social media or television or
anything like that. Let's just say you're like in a
rut and you're doing that all the time. Well, the
only way to get out of that rut is to
understand the emotions that are actually leading you to that.
So that would be sort of like the emotional home.
It's like you look at something like a pattern that

(47:59):
you do, and you're like, oh, I realize, like whenever
I'm triggered or upset or whenever I feel out of
control in life, I get really anxious. You know, some
people will always get angry no matter what. So it's
so important that we understand our psychology and that we
understand the psychology of the person that we're in a
relationship with. We can't make our lives better if we

(48:22):
don't understand the emotional patterns that we get in, you know,
like that's the root. And I think it's important when
you're in a relationship to understand to be attuned not
just to your partner, but also to yourself and understand
your psychology and understand like, oh, like my spouse, my partner,

(48:43):
my lover, my boyfriend, my girlfriend, however you want to
call it, they're doing that that has nothing to do
with me. They're just like doing that thing that they
always do. It's not that it's an excuse, but it's
really like understanding them. The only way to really heal
our lives is to understand and the emotional patterns that
we get ourselves into. And every emotional pattern that we

(49:06):
get into has a story behind it. It's like if
you're experiencing a lot of sadness or a lot of anger,
it's like there's a whole pattern to that. You're telling
yourself you're not good enough. You're telling yourself, I'm always
going to be that way. Like the example that I
gave of you know, someone saying well, I'm just broken,
It's like, okay, well sounds to me like you know,
someone might say, oh, they're depressed, so that's why they
say they're broken. It's like, no, that's not how I

(49:29):
see it. It's they keep saying to themselves that they're broken,
which leads them into a depression, and then the depression
actually reinforces the I'm broken, and then the more they
say I'm broken, the more depressed they are. And that
is a place where they feel really, really comfortable because
then as long as they're like that, they don't have
to stop dating the drug addict. So it's really important

(49:51):
to understand that home that you go to that is
very familiar to you. Maybe you've learned it from mom,
maybe learned it from dad, maybe it's just been practiced
for you know, thirty forty years. To understand that and
within the context of a relationship is this is why
single is a lot of times easier. Is that we

(50:12):
can indulge that as much as we want if we're
single and we're not in a good state. We could
binge watch Netflix all week and long if we wanted to.
But guess where that's not going to fly in a relationship.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Yep. We also don't get triggered alone in the same way.
You know, it's the triggering that I think is one
of the big things. So like my emotional home or
my strategy is, you know, you list these different strategies
that people behavioral patterns and relationships, you know, like control
or pleasing or fighting. I was like, well, I start

(50:45):
with pleasing. If that doesn't work, I move into fleeing,
and if that doesn't work, then I freeze. You know,
it's like I've got a hierarchy.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
We have a hierarchy.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
Hierarchy of what I go through. I didn't work. Okay,
let's try try strategy too, But that desire to please
doesn't get triggered without someone else around. You know that
freezing doesn't happen generally in the absence of someone. In
my last marriage, you know, I think you see this
a lot in troubled relationships, we had the exact opposite patterns, right.

(51:17):
Her pattern of triggered was anger, which is the thing
that I'm most afraid of, so that most triggers my runaway,
which then most triggers her being angry because she feels abandoned.
Despite knowing it and working on it, we were unable
to fix it, and you know, we ended it, which
I don't think is actually a bad thing. I think
it was a wise thing, and we're both happy and

(51:39):
get along well with each other. And knowing that your
emotional home and knowing your reaction pattern, Yeah, you're being
really helpful, you know. And they're so strong, Like you know,
for me, there is a shutdown that happens somebody's angry
around me. It is completely and totally unconscious. It's like
I can watch it happen. Is if the power is

(52:01):
just draining out of the system, right, Like if I
am just like literally shutting down, like a power draining
out of it, and I can sort of watch it happen,
and you know, I've gotten better at it, but it
is still it's so hard when those things are that
deeply ingrained. It really is a pattern of awareness and
continuing to take incremental improvement, at least for me, incremental

(52:22):
improvement in dealing with it and you know, self soothing
like you talked about earlier, Like Okay, what can I
do so that we don't get there?

Speaker 1 (52:30):
So there's a couple of different directions to go with this,
because it really is very interesting. Well, Number one, there's
a saying that goes we marry our unfinished business from childhood.
So that's one thing I'll circle back to that. Number two. Yeah,
it takes an incredible amount of self awareness to be
in a relationship. For sure. The heavier our baggage, the

(52:51):
bigger our baggage, the more self aware you're just going
to have to practice, have to have. And then number
three is and this ties into like when to leave
a relationship. Certainly, it's like you can find yourself married
and you know, it's like, oh, of course we found
each other. I had the scary father who was angry,

(53:15):
and then here I am married to someone who sees
red every time she's triggered. And then we're just going
to constantly trigger each other. And like, yes, is it
possible that like two people like that could work and
like figure it out and grow together, and yeah, it
could be really profound. Yeah, but there's also an argument
for saying, well, you know what, like yes, I understand

(53:37):
like why this is happening. This is like, you know,
I'm going into my pattern that like I learned as
a child, and like then when I do that, she's
being triggered for abandon and all that. But there's something
to be said for like, you know what, like we're
too triggering to each other, and that's okay, but it's
like maybe we're not a match, Like maybe it's like
we're more of a trauma bond or something like that,

(53:58):
or like you know, like maybe it's like and it's
a tough call. It's like, no, you have to love
each other enough to be like, no, we're going to
overcome this is like our childhood craft. Or you're just
like you know what, like it could be a lot
easier with someone else. Yeah, doesn't mean I don't take
responsibility for it. And the next thing that I wanted
to say is that all these patterns, all these emotional homes,

(54:19):
everything that I write about boils down to one thing,
Like none of us are doing any of these things
that we don't want to be doing in a relationship.
It's all fear. Yeah, every single one of us is
afraid that the person that we care about is not
gonna stay or is gonna, you know, like abandon us,

(54:39):
or is going to reject us. I mean, like this
is the fear that drives all behavior in a relationship
that we're not proud of.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
Yeah, so let's spend a couple minutes here and talk
a little bit about communication. You actually say, communication is
the glue that keeps couples together, and it's deficit is
always the force that tears them upon art. You know,
you talk about some winning strategies, some losing strategies, some skills.
We're not going to get through all of it, but
highlight a couple important things regarding communication, either to do

(55:11):
or not to do. Yeah, that's so important for this
critical thing. We could have a whole conversation on your
strategies here, but I'm going to ask you to do
it in five minutes.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
So okay. So first of all, we're communicating all the time,
whether we're doing it verbally or nonverbally, Like our body
is communicating all the time. So it's really important that
when you are having like any sort of conversation, you're
turning towards each other. But also that like you're present
with each other, because we can tell when we're talking

(55:41):
to someone and even if they're looking at us, we
can tell that they're not with us. Their mind is
somewhere else, or they're strategizing how to reply, you know,
like what's going to be the thing. So presence is
really important. And also what's really important is that you
stop debating. Yeah, no more debating, because in a debate

(56:03):
there's a winner and there's a loser. And if you're
communicating with your partner with the intent to win the argument,
then guess what, You're going to walk away feeling validated
for about a minute. They're going to feel totally invalidated,
and guess what, your problem doesn't go away, you both lose.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Actually, so listener and thinking about all of that and
the other great wisdom from today's episode. If you are
going to isolate just one top insight or thing to
do that you're taking away, what would it be. Remember that,
little by little, a little becomes a lot, and a
habit for me that has accrude and benefit over time
is meditation. However, one of the things that gets in

(56:43):
our way of building a steady meditation practice is that
very striving. Right. Of course, we're doing it because we
want certain benefits, but in the moment of actually meditating,
we need to let striving go and focus on just
being there and experiencing it. No matter what's happening. It
becomes not enjoyable because I'm trying to make something happen

(57:04):
some special moment. We want to let go of that.
So if you want to stop dreading meditation and actually
find it enjoyable, check out my free meditation guide at
Goodwolf dot me slash calm. That presence thing is funny.
It makes me think of my current partner, Jinny, and
I like things, like I said, are so are so good.
But I have a habit of She'll be talking and

(57:25):
I really am listening, but I'm also on my way
somewhere else, and it drives her nuts, you know, because
I'll be like listening to her, and then I'll be
thinking and I need to go get my sweatshirt and
I need and so I'm literally walking away.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
Which and for that's really really difficult, not.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
The signal that I want to be sending. What's funny
is I found if I just say, hey, I also
while I listen to you need to go do these
couple of things, it's fine, right, Like it's understood then,
like you know, it's just so you're right. I mean,
it's like I really am listening, but my body is
very clearly saying no, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
And the thing is it's like, yeah, you're listening, but
if you're doing other things, you're not really listening, it's
the same thing as like the phone. It's like you
could be like out for dinner. It's like, oh, yeah,
I'm not looking at my phone, but it's on the table.
It's like that immediately changes everything. Having the phone on
the table is not the same thing as putting your
phone away. Yeah, it's just not. Or you're like holding

(58:24):
your phone in your hand even though you're not looking
at it. It's like it immediately like what you feel,
even if it's not conscious in that moment, is you
feel like I am not as important as that device
that's in that person's hand. Listening is so important. I
think that people speak way more than they should, and
they should be really listening more, and there should be

(58:46):
more of I hear you, I understand you, tell me
more and less trying to fix. This is actually something
that happens a lot between male and female relationships, is
that men typically like to fix and women they just
typically want to They're like, no, you know, I just
want to be heard. Yep, I want to be heard.

(59:09):
So that's something that comes up a lot when it
comes to like repairing a fight. You said something interesting
in the beginning of a conversation on that book like
if there was a camera rolling, what would that pick up?
And so when you want to repair being able to
say this is what I saw and really just like

(59:29):
be the camera like on like showing the recording, and
then you can say this was my interpretation. So there
you're like you're like you're actually admitting that, like, Okay,
this is what my mind, yes, actually constructed over this.
And then you say how you feel yes, And a
lot of people use the word feel in front of

(59:50):
every sentence, thinking I'm talking about my feelings. So it's like, no,
saying I feel like you don't care is not a feeling.
A feeling? Is I feel really insecure and scared because
my perception right now is that you don't care.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
Yeap. Yeah, You've got lots of great words in your
different courses and workbooks that are available on your website.
I'll just end this with one that I think is
so important in every type of relationship, which is positive intent.
Share a little bit about that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
So if you believe that the person that you're in
a relationship with, whether it's a friendship, whether it's a
significant other, whether it's family, if you actually truly believe
that that person's intention is to hurt you and to
harm you, then that's not someone you should be in

(01:00:45):
relationship with anymore. So if you can say, Okay, I'm hurt,
I don't like the behavior. I don't even particularly like
you right this moment. But if you can say to yourself,
but I know that that's not what they meant to do.
And so sometimes we'll get stuck in our heads, we'll

(01:01:06):
create a story and we'll get so angry with someone
and that's when we have to stop and ask ourselves, like,
do you think that that was their intention was to
do this to you? Right now? That doesn't mean that
you don't talk to them about it, doesn't mean that
you don't call them out on it. It doesn't mean that
you tolerate behavior. But it's so important to if you're

(01:01:30):
going to be constantly seeing a monster in your partner,
what you're going to be constantly getting as a monster.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
I certainly think it's the place to start, right. I
love the phrase assume positive intent. You know, assume that.
Now again, you may need to update your assumption. Yes, right,
that may not be what it is and then you
need to update it. But it's a good place to
start because if you always assume negative intent, and we
all know people who do. They interpret every action through

(01:01:59):
negative intention, and it's a bitter place to live from defensiveness. Yeah,
you know, and it's back to that camera idea, right Like.
I find that the place that I've gone wrong in relationships,
and I see people do so often, is we think
we know why somebody did something. And you know, if
you know somebody long enough and you've talked to them enough,
maybe you know. But the why is very much an interpretation,

(01:02:24):
you know, absolutely, I find that just really gets us
into trouble. It's a whole lot better to as you
were just saying, here's the behavior I saw, Here's how
it made me feel. You know, the behavior was a
factual thing. My feelings are real, they're mine. Now what
you meant for what you were trying to do, I
actually need to get that info from you. Yes, well

(01:02:46):
said well, Gillian, thank you so much for coming on
the show. It's such a pleasure. Your podcast again, which
is just released and has so much great information, is
called Gillian on Love and listeners can find it anywhere
they get their podcasts. You and I are going to
continue in the post show conversation and I want to
talk a little bit about healing heartbreak because you do

(01:03:09):
a lot of work in that area too, and there's
assuredly some heartbroken people listening right now, so we'll do
that listeners. If you'd like access to that post show
conversation and all kinds of other good things you get
from being part of our community, check it out at
oneufeed dot net slash join again. Thank you so much, Jillian.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
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Feed Podcast. When you join our membership community. With this
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It's our way of saying thank you for your support now.
We are so grateful for that members of our community.
We wouldn't be able to do what we do without

(01:04:03):
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