November 12, 2025 • 33 mins
“It's important that my perspective stays flexible because my perspective could need updating, it could need to be changed based on new information.” — Nic Stone
Nic Stone isn’t interested in staying in her lane.
A #1 New York Times bestselling author, her young adult novels—Dear Martin, Chaos Theory, and Clean Getaway—explore nuances of racism, power, and mental illness with clarity and compassion.
Now, she’s stepping into uncharted territory with Boom Town, her first adult novel. Set in a legendary Atlanta strip club, it’s a story about women, survival, and social power, and is a reflection of Nic’s own creative evolution.
In this Second Chapter conversation, Expanding Woman: Nic Stone on Forgiveness and the Freedom to Change, Nic returns to the podcast and gets real about what it means to grow louder, freer, and to become more yourself. She talks about lighting rage letters on fire, a recent existential crisis (hello, middle age), and the surprising way her new book helped her dad heal old wounds.
Settle in for a conversation that’ll make you want to live a little louder and embrace every chaotic (and beautiful) version of who you are.
http://thereadingculturepod.com/nic-stone-second-chapter
***
Show Chapters
Chapter 1: Unpaved Territory
Chapter 2: Right on Schedule
Chapter 3: The Picture of Dorian Gray
Chapter 4: Learning the Steps
Chapter 5: Let It Burn
Links
- The Reading Culture
- The Reading Culture Newsletter Signup
- Follow The Reading Culture on Instagram (for giveaways and bonus content)
- Nic Stone
- Nic Stone Instagram
- Boom Town
- The Picture of Dorian Gray
- Beanstack resources to build your community’s reading culture
- Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Host and Production Credits
Host: Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Producers: Mel Webb and Lower Street Media
Script Editors: Josia Lamberto-Egan, Mel Webb, Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nic Stone (00:03):
It's important that my perspective stay flexible
because my perspective couldneed updating. It could need to
be changed based on newinformation.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:13):
We're always changing even when we
think we've arrived. We shed oldversions of ourselves and
stretch toward new ones. Yet,when a chorus of outside voices
snipes at us to stay in ourlane, how do we find the resolve
to change our jobs, our beliefs,or our self image? Nick Stone is
(00:35):
a number one New York Timesbestselling author whose young
adult books like Dear Martin,Chaos Theory, and Clean Getaway
explore the nuances of racism,power, and mental illness with
clarity and compassion. Herlatest novel, Boom Town, marks a
bold new chapter.
It's her first book for adults.It's a story about women,
(00:59):
survival, and social powercentered on a renowned Atlanta
strip club where Nick herselfhas spent some time as we'll
hear in a moment. Today, Nickreturns for what we call the
second chapter in which I sitdown with guests we loved the
first time and get them to digdeeper into topics where they
have valuable perspective. Inthis episode, Nick talks about
(01:22):
the courage to take risks andwhat happens when you stop
asking permission to evolve as aperson. She shares how reading
Boomtown helped her father seehimself differently, why she
believes curiosity matters morethan certainty, and how
sometimes you get so angry thatyou gotta write an unadulterated
(01:43):
rage letter and then literallytorch it to find forgiveness.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookieand this is the reading culture
a show where we speak withdiverse authors about ways to
build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities. We
dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
Our show is made possible byBeanstack, the leading solution
(02:05):
for motivating people to readmore. Learn more at
beanstack.com, and make sure tocheck us out on Instagram at the
reading culture pod andsubscribe to our newsletter for
bonus content atthereadingculturepod.com forward
/ newsletter. Alright.
On to the show.
(02:27):
I saw Nikki Giovanni in Atlanta. I went to
Emory for one year, and she wasspeaking. I went to see her,
like, in the big chapel. Shespoke, and it was, like, a life
changing experience. And sheshowed us all her thug life
tattoo and, you know, it wasjust really, like she really,
like, knocked open the door forme.
Nic Stone (02:45):
By the way, like, we're talking about Nikki
Giovanni because she's on myshirt.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (02:48):
Because she's on Nick's shirt, which no
Nic Stone (02:50):
one can see. Yes. Young Nikki. Young Nikki.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (02:53):
Alright. We're gonna talk I have a lot of
things. I kinda I have a lot ofquestions. I guess we can start
with, like, you are this knownlove middle grade You author,
and then there's this, I wouldimagine, like, pressures from
the book world and then alsomaybe, like, personally to stay
in that lane. And just wannatalk a little bit about that
(03:15):
tension that maybe youexperienced in stepping out
there with BoomTown.
Nic Stone (03:20):
I mean, I didn't experience any tension. I'm a do
what I wanna do. Truly. Like, Ihave always known that I wanted
to tell stories in as manymediums and spaces as possible,
and I will not stop until I feellike I have accomplished that
mission. So every time somebodyasks about my, quote unquote
(03:43):
transition, I correct them and Isay it's it's an expansion.
It's not a transition. Like, mynext two books are there's a
June 26 book coming. That's You.That is, like, the third one
that I've written with friends.That's Breakout.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (03:58):
Oh, yeah.
Nic Stone (03:58):
And then October 2026 is a new middle grade.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (04:02):
Okay.
Nic Stone (04:02):
So just adding some lanes to my highway. Yeah. We
are known for the things that weactually show people. So if you
don't show a person somethingabout yourself, you can't
possibly be known for it. And Iam deeply and powerfully
committed to being myself inevery space that I enter largely
(04:25):
because I think that it empowersother people to be precisely who
they are in the spaces that theyenter.
Mhmm. And I think that's how youmake the world better. Right?
Like, you create room for peopleto be human. For me, it's all
about telling stories wherepeople get to see the humanity
of other people, especiallypeople that they have been
(04:46):
conditioned to believe are lesshuman.
And yeah, no. Like, we're gonnafix the world by being less
apologetic about our humanity.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (04:57):
You always show up exactly as who you are.
And I I remember or listened toour last conversation, and
that's a through line for youbecause that's always been true.
And I wonder, have you ever hada moment where you felt like you
were not fully yourself or,like, where you needed to, you
know, to break free?
Nic Stone (05:13):
I would not say that I've consciously experienced
this sense of, like, oh, no. I'mnot being fully myself. I need
to do something different. Butif I feel stifled, I cannot help
but be like, oh, no. I'm not.
I don't like this. Right? Like,I have no problem leaving places
(05:34):
and people that make me feelsmall. For me, the most
important thing is to be abearer of space for people to
exist as themselves. And ifthere is anything happening
around me that I feel likeprevents me from accomplishing
(05:56):
that mission, it's gotta go.
And this comes from my mom. Mymom has always just been
herself. She's never gonnaapologize for being herself, and
she's never gonna explainherself. Yeah. And I think that,
like, there are people,obviously, that I have no like,
if I am in relationship withanother person and I have
(06:19):
something that I have said ordone or some way that I move
lands for them in a way that notnecessarily, like, feels
offensive, but feels harmful orhurtful, we can have a
conversation.
But, like, I never, like, cameout. Like, I just am, and I
(06:39):
never really felt a need toexplain myself to anybody. And
part of that, I think, is mewanting to help other people
understand that, like, you arenot obligated to explain
yourself to anybody, meincluded. Right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:00):
Nick's certainty in who she is didn't
appear overnight. As she said,it came from her mom, someone
who never apologized for beingherself. Still, even with that
foundation, Nick admits thatexpansion can feel messy. Growth
often asks her to shed oldversions of herself and step
into something unknown.
Nic Stone (07:22):
I have like at least two existential crises a year.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:26):
Okay. Tell us about one.
Nic Stone (07:28):
Let's see. The most recent well, I turned 40 in
July. Actually, Like, just aftermidnight on my birthday, I, like
I don't know. I don't know whathappened, but I, like, broke up
with my partner. It the breakuplasted maybe six hours Okay.
Because partner was like, girl,bye. Stop it. Like, this is not
(07:49):
a thing we're doing. But I hadthis whole, like, reckoning
where I was like, wait. Hold on.
Like, I know I say I'm 19 withtwenty one years of experience,
but, like, I'm actually not. Sothat was a whole crisis. A whole
crisis. And, like, I've come toit's like there's the crisis,
and then you settle in, and thenyou transition to, like, this
(08:11):
other space. It's like aninflection point.
And I feel like I'm afterBoomTown has come out, and it is
a totally different experience.Totally different. And I'm like,
oh, I think I like it over heretoo. Like, I just the person
that I have bloomed into. Andthe risk part was the self
(08:33):
exposure.
So, like, it it wasn't evennecessarily shifting to a
different age category becauseafter writing BoomTown, I then
wrote the middle there's amiddle grade novel coming out
next year, and it is probablythe best thing I've ever
written. Totally it's not evenlike it's different from what
I've done before becausethere's, like, verse involved.
(08:55):
Most people don't even know Iwrite poetry. Like, it's things
like that where I'm I'm steppinginto and feel like I no longer
am seeking permission to be my,like, most full self. I am the
most chaotic person I know.
Like, constant chaos theory is amanifesto, but I'm not bothered
(09:18):
by it. Like, it's not like likeI don't feel any shame over it.
I don't feel any guilt over likelike, why? Why would I? Like,
this is how my brain works.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:29):
I wanna go back to something you said about
BoomTown. Like, part of yourexpansion was, like, feeling
like there was this level ofself exposure.
Nic Stone (09:36):
Mhmm.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:36):
And can you just say a little bit more about
what you meant about that?That's been sticking with me
since you said it.
Nic Stone (09:41):
So I'm grown. Mhmm. I have two kids. Like, I do grown
people things. Mhmm.
And in the children's literaturespace, those grown people things
have to stay behind the curtain.Yeah. But I just wrote a book
about strippers Yeah. Two ofwhom were in a relationship. And
(10:02):
so, like, what's on the pageain't what's in my it's not
what's in my middle grade andyoung adult books.
And, like, I had the moment of,like, oh god, what did I do
Yeah. When my dad told me he waslistening to the audiobook. And
I was like Okay. Oh, okay. Thisis really uncomfortable.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:22):
Yes.
Nic Stone (10:22):
And also, okay. Here we are. Right? Like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:24):
Yeah. Like, that's who you are to everybody.
Right?
Nic Stone (10:27):
Jordan was wild, though. He calls me. Right?
Like, he's like, you know,Nicole? I I really feel like
BoomTown is helping to heal me alittle bit.
What? What do you mean helpingto
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:40):
heal me?
Nic Stone (10:41):
He was like Yeah. You know, I I spent a lot of time
Mhmm. In in these sorts ofplaces when I was younger. There
was one time he tells me thisstory about and he's by the way,
my dad is absolutely fine withme sharing anything that he
shares with me. He I need to doa podcast with him.
He is just a gem. So he wassaying how, like, there was one
time he almost got fired becausefive days in a row, he called in
(11:04):
sick and was kicking it at theblue flame. That's that's one of
the strip clubs here. And I'mlike, dad, I love the Blue
Flame. Okay.
So, like, it's, like, createdthis new depth of relationship
for us. Yeah. But it's notsomething that would have
happened if I refused to gothere. Yeah. But it was it was
terrifying.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:23):
And you go there in the book. Oh, I go
there. It's not like there'severything is not behind the
curtain as they say.
Nic Stone (11:29):
No. We don't fade to black in this space. We don't do
that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:33):
It is like its own risky behavior in some
ways. But then when this is thetype of author you're I think it
was Jason, Jason Reynolds, whenhe said, like, I'm a children's
author, but I'm not a child.There you go. And, like, I think
he was talking about he's stillcreating stuff for kids, but
saying, like, I'm doingsomething different that you
don't expect me. I'm gonna makesomething that's not realistic
fiction, and that's because I'malso an artist.
(11:55):
Yeah. You know? And I want andlike you're saying, like, you
have to be able to live fully.Yes. And it's hard when you're
in this, like it's not apigeonhole per se, but it can
be.
You know? There's an attempt todo that, right, if you
Nic Stone (12:08):
don't fight against it. There's an attempt. Yeah.
There's an attempt topigeonhole. And I think it
appears to be more true forwomen than for men, but, like,
we are constantly told that wecannot be more than one thing.
If you are more than one thing,you are automatically too much.
But, like, bro, that's a youproblem. That don't got shit to
do with me. I think what I havecome to realize is that, like,
(12:32):
if there is an individual or anentity who looks at me or thinks
of me and has the words too muchcome to mind, beloved, I really
hope you find less. Yeah.
Right. And that it works foryou. But I've hit a point where,
like, I just I have no interestin turning down.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:51):
Yeah. Like you said, you're expanding.
Nic Stone (12:53):
I'm expanding. So that's like a request
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:55):
to contract. You don't wanna do
that.
Nic Stone (13:01):
But do you approve of it, Harry? Asked the painter,
walking up and down the room andbiting his lip. You can't
approve of it possibly. It issome silly infatuation. I never
approve or disapprove ofanything now.
It is an absurd attitude to taketowards life. We are not sent
into the world to air our moralprejudices. I never take notice
(13:24):
of any of what common peoplesay, and I never interfere with
what charming people do. If apersonality fascinates me,
whatever mode of expression thatpersonality selects is
absolutely delightful to me.Dorian Gray falls in love with a
beautiful girl who acts likeJuliet and proposes to marry
her.
Why not? If he wedded Messalina,he would be, nonetheless,
(13:46):
interesting. You know I am not achampion of marriage. The real
drawback to marriage is that itmakes one unselfish. And
unselfish people are colorless.
They lack individuality. Still,there are certain temperaments
that marriage makes morecomplex. They retain their
egotism and add to it many otheregos. They are forced to have
(14:08):
more than one life. They becomemore highly organized, and to be
highly organized is, I shouldfancy, the object of man's
existence.
Besides, every experience is ofvalue, and whatever one may say
against marriage, it iscertainly an experience. I hope
that Dorian Gray will make thisgirl his wife, passionately
(14:28):
adore her for six months, andthen suddenly become fascinated
by someone else. He would
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:33):
be a wonderful study. Nick read from
The Picture of Dorian Gray byOscar Wilde, first published in
1890. The novel follows a youngman who trades his soul for
eternal youth and beauty whilehis portrait bears the marks of
his corruption. Wilde's sharpwit and moral rebellion left a
lasting impression on Nick. Hisrefusal to conform to only be
(14:56):
one thing mirrored the kind offreedom she strives for in her
own work and life.
Nic Stone (15:06):
Sticking this idea that, like, you have to stay the
same your entire life. You driveyour heels down. This is what
you believe and you neverdeviate from it is incredibly
boring to me. So like Ichallenge everything and that's
where the stories come from. Theaim of challenging everything,
(15:26):
of course, as I keep saying, isto create space for people to
feel human.
So I just love that passage.Number one, it's super
irreverent. Yes. It's verycountercultural and it's
subversive. And, like, I likethings that challenge what I
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:44):
think and what I believe. Do you remember
when you first read it?
Nic Stone (15:47):
I was just starting to write. Like, I was starting
to, like, figure out what Iwanted to write about. Like, I
had discovered that writing wassomething I could do. And so it
was a combination of reading thepicture of Dorian Gray and I was
also just obsessed with JohnGreen. But John Green told this
story about a famous Muslimwoman who would travel around
(16:09):
her town with a bucket of waterand a torch.
Right? And when she was asked,why are you traveling around
with a bucket of water and atorch? She would say, I want to
burn down the gates of heavenand put out the flames of hell
so that people would interactwith God not for desire for
heaven or fear of hell, but justbecause of who God is. And,
(16:32):
like, taking away kind of thepunishment reward thing, the way
that that completely changesone's relationship to judgment
as a concept and to morality asa concept combined with, like, I
neither approve nor disapproveof anything. I'm not put into
the world to air my moralprejudices.
Like, for me, that cracked openwriting in general. Like, what
(16:58):
it is that I wanted to, like,put into the work that I'm
doing. Yeah. And I'm reallythankful. Look, I don't like
people getting hurt, obviously.
Like, I'm like, bro, don't marryher in the six months, bro. Come
on now. Like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:12):
Yeah. But that idea of, like, removal of
judgment, that can crack opensomething else.
Nic Stone (17:17):
Yes. It's approaching everything in the world through
the lens of curiosity, which isabout being open. Right? Like,
curiosity is about willingnessto pursue experiences. It's
about being willing to be wrong.
Right? Like, if you're curiousabout something, you are
admitting that you don't have ananswer.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:37):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (17:37):
And, like, that's really hard for people. It's
hard for people to admit thatthey don't know things and that
they don't have answers becausewe live in this society that's
hyper insistent on certainty,but like certainty isn't
actually real. Like, it doesn'texist. It is impossible to be
certain of anything. Even what Ijust said, I cannot be certain
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:58):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (17:58):
That certainty isn't real. It's like I can have a
perspective. But for me, it'simportant that my perspective
stay flexible because myperspective could need updating.
Yeah. It could need to bechanged based on new
information.
So curiosity over certainty,friends.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:23):
That curiosity, that willingness to
stay open, to keep learning runsdeep for Nick. In Boomtown, the
openness with which she writeshelped her father see himself
differently and as Nick shared,even to begin to heal. But long
before she could write aboutthat kind of transformation, she
(18:44):
saw it modeled in him.
Nic Stone (18:46):
My dad and I just have the coolest relationship.
He celebrated thirty years ofsobriety last year. Right? So
this was year 31. And, like, heis the most human person I know.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:57):
Oh, wow. So you started seeing that when you
were 10?
Nic Stone (18:59):
When I was 10.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (19:00):
That's interesting.
Nic Stone (19:01):
Let's see. I wasn't even 10 yet. I was nine.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (19:04):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (19:04):
And, like, he would take me with him to his AA
meetings. So then I'm surroundedby these adults who are
literally, the first words outof their mouth are them
admitting that they have aproblem. And, like, to see these
people who are willing to be,like, not getting it right.
Yeah. You know?
I'm not only harming myself,I've also done great harm to
(19:28):
people around me. Like, justseeing that level of
vulnerability andaccountability. Like, my dad
taught me about boundaries. Mydad taught me about self
awareness. My dad taught meabout not bringing harm to other
people.
My dad taught me the importanceof, like, taking care of your
body. Like, he's like that one.Like, I love that man. He's
delightful. He was not alwaysthat way, though, because before
(19:50):
that, he was a drunk and a drugaddict, and he could be awful
sometimes.
Right? My mom shielded me from alot. And this is something I've
come to realize as I've gottenolder. My mom shielded me from a
lot prior to my dad gettingsober, but there's this kind of
back and forth flow. Right?
Like, I learn from him all thetime. So I'm always shocked when
(20:13):
he's telling me that, like, he'slearning something from me, and
I'm shocked and honored and,like, a privilege because I'm
like, I mean, really, you learnit from yourself because what
you just learned, I've got fromyou. You are me. Kinda remix it
a little bit, made it a littlemore twenty first century, you
know, and it's great. You know,
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (20:31):
when you're when you're young and you don't
really understand all the thingseverybody's talking about,
obviously, you know, you can'tunderstand. But, yeah, to to see
people, like, lead with thattype of vulnerability and to,
like you're saying, acknowledgethat is, like, really puts you
in a place of and that is also,like, supposed to be a no
judgment Yeah. Place. Right? Sothat's also, like, a deep
rooting of that.
(20:51):
Correct.
Nic Stone (20:52):
And, of course, there's still judgment that
happens. You you're dealing withpeople who are actively judging
themselves. Right? Like, if youare constantly judging yourself,
there is no way you are notjudging the people around you.
Like, if you're not happy inyour body, in your being, where
with where you are in life, it'snot possible for you to be
openly nonjudgmental towardother people.
(21:16):
But, like, I just I would lovefor adults to just, like, stop
lying to children. We don't needto lie to children. Yeah. We can
tell children the truth. We canshow them who we are carefully.
But, like, any area where youhave any sort of, like, shame is
an area that needs to beexamined. Right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (21:35):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (21:35):
Because that shame just impacts everything and
everyone around you. It does.And I don't lie to my kids. My
kids know all of my businessbecause it's important to me.
Mhmm.
My nine year old, week beforelast, when BoomTown came out,
right, me and my 13 year oldwere both at the book launch. I
talk openly no matter where Iam. Like, they hear what I
(21:58):
actually think about things.They hear how I actually feel.
And after the launch, my nineyear old came to me and he said,
mommy, I would like to readBoomTown.
And I said, you got it. Go forit. And so he and and one of his
classmates, like, there'sanother mom. Like, there's
another one of me at the scene.Read aloud
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:19):
or it's like a read to self? They're
reading
Nic Stone (22:20):
to self, but they, like, are having a book club
about it. Like, these two nineyear olds. And, like, I love it
so much. So it's because it'sone of those things get what
they
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:29):
get, and they're not gonna get what they
don't get. It's like anybodyreading all that stuff when
they're young. You know? Like,if you don't know it, you don't
know it. You know?
Nic Stone (22:35):
So much of it is a metaphor. It's going over their
heads. But the other piece ofthis is, and this is something
that I really want parents toexamine for themselves. How much
better is it for my nine yearold to learn about sex work from
a book that I wrote and heavilyresearched Yep. Than to learn it
from some random friend inclass.
(22:57):
Right? Parents setting thestandard is really important.
Like, it's really important thatwe help our children understand
the world around them Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:09):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (23:09):
Based on who they are. Right? Like, children are
books to be read. They're notstories to be written. Like,
there is so much that I learnedfrom my kids because they have a
different life than I had,different personalities.
And, like, we are on this sharedjourney where my job is to lead
them. Right, and to guide them.It's not to tell them exactly
(23:30):
what to do, exactly how to doit, here are the lines you need
to color with it. Like, I'm I'mjust I'm never gonna be that
mom. Also, I, again, think theworld would be better if we set
kids up to accept themselves andlove themselves and love the
people around them.
And my dad did that for me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:48):
Yeah. Right. And there's some even
when your people are flawed,like, do that. That's, like, the
thing.
Nic Stone (23:52):
Because everybody is flawed. There's no such thing as
a person with no flaws.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (24:05):
Throughout our conversation, Nick kept
returning to the idea ofexpansion, of becoming her full
self, unafraid to take risks orto be honest and to let every
part of who she is take upspace. That same openness, that
same acceptance of the messy andthe real is also at the heart of
forgiveness. So as ourconversation drew to a close, I
(24:29):
was curious about how she thinksabout forgiveness and how her
understanding of it has evolved.
Nic Stone (24:37):
The one thing that I will say that I got from
evangelical Christianity that Iwill never get rid of is the
power of forgiveness.Forgiveness is for me. It's not
for the other person. Right?Like, I think of for me, I hate
being unhappy.
I hate how yucky feelings feelin my body. Like, I don't wanna
feel these things. So I have tofeel them. You have to go
(24:58):
through those emotions to get tothe other side. Okay.
But if there is somethingsitting inside me that I can get
rid of, it's gotta go. Right?And unforgiveness is one of
those things. I've never been agrudge holder because I don't
like how it feels. I once heardunforgiveness is like drinking
poison and hoping someone elsewill die.
And I'm like, damn, that's good.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:18):
That's
Nic Stone (25:18):
good. So from the time I was like 17, anytime
somebody upset me, I would writethem a letter, like, ragey. All
of the shit I was feeling, I'dwrite it down.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:30):
Do you remember one of them that you
did that?
Nic Stone (25:32):
Oh, I've I could I could name a 100 people I've
done it for because I do Icontinue to do it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:37):
You write them a letter? Yeah.
Nic Stone (25:38):
I write them a but they don't read it. It's for me.
You hold the letter. So, like, Iwrite a letter, and it's a whole
it's like a step by stepprocess. The feeling's gotta
come out first.
Okay. Right? So how I feel needsto be expelled from my body, and
I do that by hand. And then onceI've gotten all my stuff out, I
lay out what the person did.Right?
(25:59):
And then I lay out how it mademe feel. And then by the time
I've done that, I feel better.Because not only have I given
myself the space to purge thethe angry, hard, kind of violent
stuff that we naturally feelwhen our boundaries are crossed
because anger is all about yourboundaries being crossed. I've
(26:21):
also outlined to validate thething that was done to me, and
then I have outlined andvalidated how that thing made me
feel. And I can literally seethat I have done this.
Because we have gotten so usedto language as a thing that you
hear Mhmm. Right, we forgetthat, like, communication is a
full body experience. So for me,part of writing the letter is
(26:45):
the tactile sensation of myfeelings quite literally leaving
my fingertips. Being able to seewith my eyes what it is that I
was experiencing. And then Ipull like, the final step is
like, and yet, I don't want thisin my body.
So in the court of, you know,Andrea Nicole Livingstone,
(27:08):
because it's my whole name.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:09):
Okay.
Nic Stone (27:09):
I am declaring you not guilty. You are free to go.
Bang my gavel.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:13):
So you're forgiving people without people
asking for forgiveness?Absolutely.
Nic Stone (27:17):
Because it ain't got nothing to do with them. For me,
forgiveness has everything to dowith me. How I interact with you
afterwards is likely to change,but at the same time, like, I'm
just not about to hold ontosomething. So then what I do is
I take the letter and I burn it,as in like an offering. You burn
it?
I burn it. So I have writtenthis letter. It's got all of the
(27:37):
stuff in it, and then I I burnit because it's like now it is
it's ash. And then I'm good.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:44):
What about when you want to get forgiveness
from another like, you feel likeI did this wrong or whatever?
How do you approach that?
Nic Stone (27:53):
When it comes to apologies, I do my best to make
sure I offer three differenttypes. So whatever has happened.
Sometimes, I don't know thatsomething has happened. Right.
And a person will come to me andbe like, you hurt my feelings
when you did ABC.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:11):
So people don't offer you the same grade?
Nic Stone (28:13):
I mean, I don't care. It's like, it's okay. Right?
Like, it's important for peopleto have the space to feel like
they can express what they needto express. Like, I had a friend
recently who we went tobreakfast, and she expressed
some frustration over the factthat there was something private
that I hadn't shared with her.
Right? So the apology Iapologized for making her feel
way. Right? And when I amapologizing, there's a and I
(28:37):
apologize. There's a I hope youcan forgive me, and there's a
I'm sorry for the thing that Idid.
Right? So, like, three it's it'scoming at you. You getting a
three. Shooting at shooting atyou three times. Yeah.
And then I'm letting myself offthe hook. Yeah. Like, I am not a
person who is going to hold agrudge against myself either.
(29:00):
What you do with my apology isnone of my business. But once I
have apologized, like, once Ifeel like I have taken
accountability
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:07):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (29:07):
And I have shown remorse, this what you decide to
do with that, I have no controlover. But I am very big on
taking accountability,acknowledging when you hurt when
I hurt somebody.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:21):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (29:21):
That it's very important because relationships
are super important to me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:24):
Have you ever, like, written or read
something that helped you, like,process forgiveness in a
different way or not reallybecause it's been your reality
all along?
Nic Stone (29:33):
I will say something that has changed for me over
time is the idea thatforgiveness is an imperative.
And I say that because there wasa point in time where based on
conditioning and, you know,indoctrination, if you will, I
(29:53):
would have said that, like,unforgiveness is a sin. Right?
Like, if there is somethingmorally wrong about refusing or
failing to forgive a person, andI just don't believe that
anymore. Right?
Like, I think it is anindividual decision. You get to
decide whether or not you wannaforgive somebody. If you wanna
hold a grudge, hold your grudge.What okay. Like, if you don't
(30:13):
mind how that feels, absolutely.
I don't feel that way. And thatcame as a result of, I can't
there there was it was a death.There was a death. And there was
a person a family member of theperson who was killed was like,
(30:34):
no. I don't forgive them, and Inever will.
And I had this moment where Iwas like, and that's okay. Like,
wait. You don't actually have toforgive people if you don't want
to. But that's really the onlything that has shifted for me
over time. Like, I'm allprobably gonna forgive.
Like I said, I don't like how itfeels in my body. Will I
continue to engage in therelationship in the same way?
(30:56):
Nah. Like, I am not a personwhose trust you have to earn. It
is given to you.
But once you lose it, it's gone.It there's no coming back. It
does not come back. So we cool.I'm not mad at you.
Yeah. But I'm also not
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:10):
But also you're out of this inner circle.
Nic Stone (31:11):
I'm good. Yeah. Like, I hope you have the best life,
genuinely. If there's anything Ican do to be of service to you,
let me know. But, yes, ourrelationship has changed.
Period. Period.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:27):
Y'all talking with Nick just makes me
wanna go out and live a littlelouder, and
I hope it does that for you too. I just I
adore how she thinks aboutgrowth, like, not as a pivot or
reinvention, but instead as thisexpansion, as adding lanes to
our highway. And I am absolutelytaking that from this
(31:50):
conversation today. It reallyshowed up everywhere in her
story from the risks that shetakes, the honesty she inherited
from her dad, the forgivenessthat she continues to practice,
just what great insights. Sothank you Nick for another
fabulous conversation.
(32:11):
This has been the readingculture and you've been
listening to our second chapterconversation with Nick Stone
again I'm your host Jordan Lloydbookie and currently I'm reading
for my book club culpability byBruce Holzinger and rereading
all of Sophie Blackall's picturebooks. If you enjoyed today's
(32:32):
episode, please show some loveand give us a five star or
written review wherever you'relistening to our podcast. It
just takes a second and itreally helps ensure that our
show gets shared with so manymore listeners. So thank you.
Thank you for doing that.
And to learn more about how youcan help grow your community's
reading culture, please checkout all of our resources at
beanstack.com. And remember tosign up for our newsletter at
(32:56):
the readingculturepod.comforward slash newsletter for
special offers and bonus contentthis episode was produced by Mel
Webb and lower street media andscript edited by Josiah Lamberto
Egan. Thanks for listening, andkeep reading.
It's important that my perspective stay flexible
because my perspective couldneed updating. It could need to
be changed based on newinformation.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:13):
We're always changing even when we
think we've arrived. We shed oldversions of ourselves and
stretch toward new ones. Yet,when a chorus of outside voices
snipes at us to stay in ourlane, how do we find the resolve
to change our jobs, our beliefs,or our self image? Nick Stone is
(00:35):
a number one New York Timesbestselling author whose young
adult books like Dear Martin,Chaos Theory, and Clean Getaway
explore the nuances of racism,power, and mental illness with
clarity and compassion. Herlatest novel, Boom Town, marks a
bold new chapter.
It's her first book for adults.It's a story about women,
(00:59):
survival, and social powercentered on a renowned Atlanta
strip club where Nick herselfhas spent some time as we'll
hear in a moment. Today, Nickreturns for what we call the
second chapter in which I sitdown with guests we loved the
first time and get them to digdeeper into topics where they
have valuable perspective. Inthis episode, Nick talks about
(01:22):
the courage to take risks andwhat happens when you stop
asking permission to evolve as aperson. She shares how reading
Boomtown helped her father seehimself differently, why she
believes curiosity matters morethan certainty, and how
sometimes you get so angry thatyou gotta write an unadulterated
(01:43):
rage letter and then literallytorch it to find forgiveness.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookieand this is the reading culture
a show where we speak withdiverse authors about ways to
build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities. We
dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
Our show is made possible byBeanstack, the leading solution
(02:05):
for motivating people to readmore. Learn more at
beanstack.com, and make sure tocheck us out on Instagram at the
reading culture pod andsubscribe to our newsletter for
bonus content atthereadingculturepod.com forward
/ newsletter. Alright.
On to the show.
(02:27):
I saw Nikki Giovanni in Atlanta. I went to
Emory for one year, and she wasspeaking. I went to see her,
like, in the big chapel. Shespoke, and it was, like, a life
changing experience. And sheshowed us all her thug life
tattoo and, you know, it wasjust really, like she really,
like, knocked open the door forme.
Nic Stone (02:45):
By the way, like, we're talking about Nikki
Giovanni because she's on myshirt.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (02:48):
Because she's on Nick's shirt, which no
Nic Stone (02:50):
one can see. Yes. Young Nikki. Young Nikki.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (02:53):
Alright. We're gonna talk I have a lot of
things. I kinda I have a lot ofquestions. I guess we can start
with, like, you are this knownlove middle grade You author,
and then there's this, I wouldimagine, like, pressures from
the book world and then alsomaybe, like, personally to stay
in that lane. And just wannatalk a little bit about that
(03:15):
tension that maybe youexperienced in stepping out
there with BoomTown.
Nic Stone (03:20):
I mean, I didn't experience any tension. I'm a do
what I wanna do. Truly. Like, Ihave always known that I wanted
to tell stories in as manymediums and spaces as possible,
and I will not stop until I feellike I have accomplished that
mission. So every time somebodyasks about my, quote unquote
(03:43):
transition, I correct them and Isay it's it's an expansion.
It's not a transition. Like, mynext two books are there's a
June 26 book coming. That's You.That is, like, the third one
that I've written with friends.That's Breakout.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (03:58):
Oh, yeah.
Nic Stone (03:58):
And then October 2026 is a new middle grade.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (04:02):
Okay.
Nic Stone (04:02):
So just adding some lanes to my highway. Yeah. We
are known for the things that weactually show people. So if you
don't show a person somethingabout yourself, you can't
possibly be known for it. And Iam deeply and powerfully
committed to being myself inevery space that I enter largely
(04:25):
because I think that it empowersother people to be precisely who
they are in the spaces that theyenter.
Mhmm. And I think that's how youmake the world better. Right?
Like, you create room for peopleto be human. For me, it's all
about telling stories wherepeople get to see the humanity
of other people, especiallypeople that they have been
(04:46):
conditioned to believe are lesshuman.
And yeah, no. Like, we're gonnafix the world by being less
apologetic about our humanity.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (04:57):
You always show up exactly as who you are.
And I I remember or listened toour last conversation, and
that's a through line for youbecause that's always been true.
And I wonder, have you ever hada moment where you felt like you
were not fully yourself or,like, where you needed to, you
know, to break free?
Nic Stone (05:13):
I would not say that I've consciously experienced
this sense of, like, oh, no. I'mnot being fully myself. I need
to do something different. Butif I feel stifled, I cannot help
but be like, oh, no. I'm not.
I don't like this. Right? Like,I have no problem leaving places
(05:34):
and people that make me feelsmall. For me, the most
important thing is to be abearer of space for people to
exist as themselves. And ifthere is anything happening
around me that I feel likeprevents me from accomplishing
(05:56):
that mission, it's gotta go.
And this comes from my mom. Mymom has always just been
herself. She's never gonnaapologize for being herself, and
she's never gonna explainherself. Yeah. And I think that,
like, there are people,obviously, that I have no like,
if I am in relationship withanother person and I have
(06:19):
something that I have said ordone or some way that I move
lands for them in a way that notnecessarily, like, feels
offensive, but feels harmful orhurtful, we can have a
conversation.
But, like, I never, like, cameout. Like, I just am, and I
(06:39):
never really felt a need toexplain myself to anybody. And
part of that, I think, is mewanting to help other people
understand that, like, you arenot obligated to explain
yourself to anybody, meincluded. Right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:00):
Nick's certainty in who she is didn't
appear overnight. As she said,it came from her mom, someone
who never apologized for beingherself. Still, even with that
foundation, Nick admits thatexpansion can feel messy. Growth
often asks her to shed oldversions of herself and step
into something unknown.
Nic Stone (07:22):
I have like at least two existential crises a year.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:26):
Okay. Tell us about one.
Nic Stone (07:28):
Let's see. The most recent well, I turned 40 in
July. Actually, Like, just aftermidnight on my birthday, I, like
I don't know. I don't know whathappened, but I, like, broke up
with my partner. It the breakuplasted maybe six hours Okay.
Because partner was like, girl,bye. Stop it. Like, this is not
(07:49):
a thing we're doing. But I hadthis whole, like, reckoning
where I was like, wait. Hold on.
Like, I know I say I'm 19 withtwenty one years of experience,
but, like, I'm actually not. Sothat was a whole crisis. A whole
crisis. And, like, I've come toit's like there's the crisis,
and then you settle in, and thenyou transition to, like, this
(08:11):
other space. It's like aninflection point.
And I feel like I'm afterBoomTown has come out, and it is
a totally different experience.Totally different. And I'm like,
oh, I think I like it over heretoo. Like, I just the person
that I have bloomed into. Andthe risk part was the self
(08:33):
exposure.
So, like, it it wasn't evennecessarily shifting to a
different age category becauseafter writing BoomTown, I then
wrote the middle there's amiddle grade novel coming out
next year, and it is probablythe best thing I've ever
written. Totally it's not evenlike it's different from what
I've done before becausethere's, like, verse involved.
(08:55):
Most people don't even know Iwrite poetry. Like, it's things
like that where I'm I'm steppinginto and feel like I no longer
am seeking permission to be my,like, most full self. I am the
most chaotic person I know.
Like, constant chaos theory is amanifesto, but I'm not bothered
(09:18):
by it. Like, it's not like likeI don't feel any shame over it.
I don't feel any guilt over likelike, why? Why would I? Like,
this is how my brain works.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:29):
I wanna go back to something you said about
BoomTown. Like, part of yourexpansion was, like, feeling
like there was this level ofself exposure.
Nic Stone (09:36):
Mhmm.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:36):
And can you just say a little bit more about
what you meant about that?That's been sticking with me
since you said it.
Nic Stone (09:41):
So I'm grown. Mhmm. I have two kids. Like, I do grown
people things. Mhmm.
And in the children's literaturespace, those grown people things
have to stay behind the curtain.Yeah. But I just wrote a book
about strippers Yeah. Two ofwhom were in a relationship. And
(10:02):
so, like, what's on the pageain't what's in my it's not
what's in my middle grade andyoung adult books.
And, like, I had the moment of,like, oh god, what did I do
Yeah. When my dad told me he waslistening to the audiobook. And
I was like Okay. Oh, okay. Thisis really uncomfortable.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:22):
Yes.
Nic Stone (10:22):
And also, okay. Here we are. Right? Like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:24):
Yeah. Like, that's who you are to everybody.
Right?
Nic Stone (10:27):
Jordan was wild, though. He calls me. Right?
Like, he's like, you know,Nicole? I I really feel like
BoomTown is helping to heal me alittle bit.
What? What do you mean helpingto
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:40):
heal me?
Nic Stone (10:41):
He was like Yeah. You know, I I spent a lot of time
Mhmm. In in these sorts ofplaces when I was younger. There
was one time he tells me thisstory about and he's by the way,
my dad is absolutely fine withme sharing anything that he
shares with me. He I need to doa podcast with him.
He is just a gem. So he wassaying how, like, there was one
time he almost got fired becausefive days in a row, he called in
(11:04):
sick and was kicking it at theblue flame. That's that's one of
the strip clubs here. And I'mlike, dad, I love the Blue
Flame. Okay.
So, like, it's, like, createdthis new depth of relationship
for us. Yeah. But it's notsomething that would have
happened if I refused to gothere. Yeah. But it was it was
terrifying.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:23):
And you go there in the book. Oh, I go
there. It's not like there'severything is not behind the
curtain as they say.
Nic Stone (11:29):
No. We don't fade to black in this space. We don't do
that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:33):
It is like its own risky behavior in some
ways. But then when this is thetype of author you're I think it
was Jason, Jason Reynolds, whenhe said, like, I'm a children's
author, but I'm not a child.There you go. And, like, I think
he was talking about he's stillcreating stuff for kids, but
saying, like, I'm doingsomething different that you
don't expect me. I'm gonna makesomething that's not realistic
fiction, and that's because I'malso an artist.
(11:55):
Yeah. You know? And I want andlike you're saying, like, you
have to be able to live fully.Yes. And it's hard when you're
in this, like it's not apigeonhole per se, but it can
be.
You know? There's an attempt todo that, right, if you
Nic Stone (12:08):
don't fight against it. There's an attempt. Yeah.
There's an attempt topigeonhole. And I think it
appears to be more true forwomen than for men, but, like,
we are constantly told that wecannot be more than one thing.
If you are more than one thing,you are automatically too much.
But, like, bro, that's a youproblem. That don't got shit to
do with me. I think what I havecome to realize is that, like,
(12:32):
if there is an individual or anentity who looks at me or thinks
of me and has the words too muchcome to mind, beloved, I really
hope you find less. Yeah.
Right. And that it works foryou. But I've hit a point where,
like, I just I have no interestin turning down.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:51):
Yeah. Like you said, you're expanding.
Nic Stone (12:53):
I'm expanding. So that's like a request
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:55):
to contract. You don't wanna do
that.
Nic Stone (13:01):
But do you approve of it, Harry? Asked the painter,
walking up and down the room andbiting his lip. You can't
approve of it possibly. It issome silly infatuation. I never
approve or disapprove ofanything now.
It is an absurd attitude to taketowards life. We are not sent
into the world to air our moralprejudices. I never take notice
(13:24):
of any of what common peoplesay, and I never interfere with
what charming people do. If apersonality fascinates me,
whatever mode of expression thatpersonality selects is
absolutely delightful to me.Dorian Gray falls in love with a
beautiful girl who acts likeJuliet and proposes to marry
her.
Why not? If he wedded Messalina,he would be, nonetheless,
(13:46):
interesting. You know I am not achampion of marriage. The real
drawback to marriage is that itmakes one unselfish. And
unselfish people are colorless.
They lack individuality. Still,there are certain temperaments
that marriage makes morecomplex. They retain their
egotism and add to it many otheregos. They are forced to have
(14:08):
more than one life. They becomemore highly organized, and to be
highly organized is, I shouldfancy, the object of man's
existence.
Besides, every experience is ofvalue, and whatever one may say
against marriage, it iscertainly an experience. I hope
that Dorian Gray will make thisgirl his wife, passionately
(14:28):
adore her for six months, andthen suddenly become fascinated
by someone else. He would
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:33):
be a wonderful study. Nick read from
The Picture of Dorian Gray byOscar Wilde, first published in
1890. The novel follows a youngman who trades his soul for
eternal youth and beauty whilehis portrait bears the marks of
his corruption. Wilde's sharpwit and moral rebellion left a
lasting impression on Nick. Hisrefusal to conform to only be
(14:56):
one thing mirrored the kind offreedom she strives for in her
own work and life.
Nic Stone (15:06):
Sticking this idea that, like, you have to stay the
same your entire life. You driveyour heels down. This is what
you believe and you neverdeviate from it is incredibly
boring to me. So like Ichallenge everything and that's
where the stories come from. Theaim of challenging everything,
(15:26):
of course, as I keep saying, isto create space for people to
feel human.
So I just love that passage.Number one, it's super
irreverent. Yes. It's verycountercultural and it's
subversive. And, like, I likethings that challenge what I
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:44):
think and what I believe. Do you remember
when you first read it?
Nic Stone (15:47):
I was just starting to write. Like, I was starting
to, like, figure out what Iwanted to write about. Like, I
had discovered that writing wassomething I could do. And so it
was a combination of reading thepicture of Dorian Gray and I was
also just obsessed with JohnGreen. But John Green told this
story about a famous Muslimwoman who would travel around
(16:09):
her town with a bucket of waterand a torch.
Right? And when she was asked,why are you traveling around
with a bucket of water and atorch? She would say, I want to
burn down the gates of heavenand put out the flames of hell
so that people would interactwith God not for desire for
heaven or fear of hell, but justbecause of who God is. And,
(16:32):
like, taking away kind of thepunishment reward thing, the way
that that completely changesone's relationship to judgment
as a concept and to morality asa concept combined with, like, I
neither approve nor disapproveof anything. I'm not put into
the world to air my moralprejudices.
Like, for me, that cracked openwriting in general. Like, what
(16:58):
it is that I wanted to, like,put into the work that I'm
doing. Yeah. And I'm reallythankful. Look, I don't like
people getting hurt, obviously.
Like, I'm like, bro, don't marryher in the six months, bro. Come
on now. Like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:12):
Yeah. But that idea of, like, removal of
judgment, that can crack opensomething else.
Nic Stone (17:17):
Yes. It's approaching everything in the world through
the lens of curiosity, which isabout being open. Right? Like,
curiosity is about willingnessto pursue experiences. It's
about being willing to be wrong.
Right? Like, if you're curiousabout something, you are
admitting that you don't have ananswer.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:37):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (17:37):
And, like, that's really hard for people. It's
hard for people to admit thatthey don't know things and that
they don't have answers becausewe live in this society that's
hyper insistent on certainty,but like certainty isn't
actually real. Like, it doesn'texist. It is impossible to be
certain of anything. Even what Ijust said, I cannot be certain
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:58):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (17:58):
That certainty isn't real. It's like I can have a
perspective. But for me, it'simportant that my perspective
stay flexible because myperspective could need updating.
Yeah. It could need to bechanged based on new
information.
So curiosity over certainty,friends.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:23):
That curiosity, that willingness to
stay open, to keep learning runsdeep for Nick. In Boomtown, the
openness with which she writeshelped her father see himself
differently and as Nick shared,even to begin to heal. But long
before she could write aboutthat kind of transformation, she
(18:44):
saw it modeled in him.
Nic Stone (18:46):
My dad and I just have the coolest relationship.
He celebrated thirty years ofsobriety last year. Right? So
this was year 31. And, like, heis the most human person I know.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:57):
Oh, wow. So you started seeing that when you
were 10?
Nic Stone (18:59):
When I was 10.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (19:00):
That's interesting.
Nic Stone (19:01):
Let's see. I wasn't even 10 yet. I was nine.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (19:04):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (19:04):
And, like, he would take me with him to his AA
meetings. So then I'm surroundedby these adults who are
literally, the first words outof their mouth are them
admitting that they have aproblem. And, like, to see these
people who are willing to be,like, not getting it right.
Yeah. You know?
I'm not only harming myself,I've also done great harm to
(19:28):
people around me. Like, justseeing that level of
vulnerability andaccountability. Like, my dad
taught me about boundaries. Mydad taught me about self
awareness. My dad taught meabout not bringing harm to other
people.
My dad taught me the importanceof, like, taking care of your
body. Like, he's like that one.Like, I love that man. He's
delightful. He was not alwaysthat way, though, because before
(19:50):
that, he was a drunk and a drugaddict, and he could be awful
sometimes.
Right? My mom shielded me from alot. And this is something I've
come to realize as I've gottenolder. My mom shielded me from a
lot prior to my dad gettingsober, but there's this kind of
back and forth flow. Right?
Like, I learn from him all thetime. So I'm always shocked when
(20:13):
he's telling me that, like, he'slearning something from me, and
I'm shocked and honored and,like, a privilege because I'm
like, I mean, really, you learnit from yourself because what
you just learned, I've got fromyou. You are me. Kinda remix it
a little bit, made it a littlemore twenty first century, you
know, and it's great. You know,
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (20:31):
when you're when you're young and you don't
really understand all the thingseverybody's talking about,
obviously, you know, you can'tunderstand. But, yeah, to to see
people, like, lead with thattype of vulnerability and to,
like you're saying, acknowledgethat is, like, really puts you
in a place of and that is also,like, supposed to be a no
judgment Yeah. Place. Right? Sothat's also, like, a deep
rooting of that.
(20:51):
Correct.
Nic Stone (20:52):
And, of course, there's still judgment that
happens. You you're dealing withpeople who are actively judging
themselves. Right? Like, if youare constantly judging yourself,
there is no way you are notjudging the people around you.
Like, if you're not happy inyour body, in your being, where
with where you are in life, it'snot possible for you to be
openly nonjudgmental towardother people.
(21:16):
But, like, I just I would lovefor adults to just, like, stop
lying to children. We don't needto lie to children. Yeah. We can
tell children the truth. We canshow them who we are carefully.
But, like, any area where youhave any sort of, like, shame is
an area that needs to beexamined. Right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (21:35):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (21:35):
Because that shame just impacts everything and
everyone around you. It does.And I don't lie to my kids. My
kids know all of my businessbecause it's important to me.
Mhmm.
My nine year old, week beforelast, when BoomTown came out,
right, me and my 13 year oldwere both at the book launch. I
talk openly no matter where Iam. Like, they hear what I
(21:58):
actually think about things.They hear how I actually feel.
And after the launch, my nineyear old came to me and he said,
mommy, I would like to readBoomTown.
And I said, you got it. Go forit. And so he and and one of his
classmates, like, there'sanother mom. Like, there's
another one of me at the scene.Read aloud
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:19):
or it's like a read to self? They're
reading
Nic Stone (22:20):
to self, but they, like, are having a book club
about it. Like, these two nineyear olds. And, like, I love it
so much. So it's because it'sone of those things get what
they
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:29):
get, and they're not gonna get what they
don't get. It's like anybodyreading all that stuff when
they're young. You know? Like,if you don't know it, you don't
know it. You know?
Nic Stone (22:35):
So much of it is a metaphor. It's going over their
heads. But the other piece ofthis is, and this is something
that I really want parents toexamine for themselves. How much
better is it for my nine yearold to learn about sex work from
a book that I wrote and heavilyresearched Yep. Than to learn it
from some random friend inclass.
(22:57):
Right? Parents setting thestandard is really important.
Like, it's really important thatwe help our children understand
the world around them Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:09):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (23:09):
Based on who they are. Right? Like, children are
books to be read. They're notstories to be written. Like,
there is so much that I learnedfrom my kids because they have a
different life than I had,different personalities.
And, like, we are on this sharedjourney where my job is to lead
them. Right, and to guide them.It's not to tell them exactly
(23:30):
what to do, exactly how to doit, here are the lines you need
to color with it. Like, I'm I'mjust I'm never gonna be that
mom. Also, I, again, think theworld would be better if we set
kids up to accept themselves andlove themselves and love the
people around them.
And my dad did that for me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:48):
Yeah. Right. And there's some even
when your people are flawed,like, do that. That's, like, the
thing.
Nic Stone (23:52):
Because everybody is flawed. There's no such thing as
a person with no flaws.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (24:05):
Throughout our conversation, Nick kept
returning to the idea ofexpansion, of becoming her full
self, unafraid to take risks orto be honest and to let every
part of who she is take upspace. That same openness, that
same acceptance of the messy andthe real is also at the heart of
forgiveness. So as ourconversation drew to a close, I
(24:29):
was curious about how she thinksabout forgiveness and how her
understanding of it has evolved.
Nic Stone (24:37):
The one thing that I will say that I got from
evangelical Christianity that Iwill never get rid of is the
power of forgiveness.Forgiveness is for me. It's not
for the other person. Right?Like, I think of for me, I hate
being unhappy.
I hate how yucky feelings feelin my body. Like, I don't wanna
feel these things. So I have tofeel them. You have to go
(24:58):
through those emotions to get tothe other side. Okay.
But if there is somethingsitting inside me that I can get
rid of, it's gotta go. Right?And unforgiveness is one of
those things. I've never been agrudge holder because I don't
like how it feels. I once heardunforgiveness is like drinking
poison and hoping someone elsewill die.
And I'm like, damn, that's good.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:18):
That's
Nic Stone (25:18):
good. So from the time I was like 17, anytime
somebody upset me, I would writethem a letter, like, ragey. All
of the shit I was feeling, I'dwrite it down.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:30):
Do you remember one of them that you
did that?
Nic Stone (25:32):
Oh, I've I could I could name a 100 people I've
done it for because I do Icontinue to do it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:37):
You write them a letter? Yeah.
Nic Stone (25:38):
I write them a but they don't read it. It's for me.
You hold the letter. So, like, Iwrite a letter, and it's a whole
it's like a step by stepprocess. The feeling's gotta
come out first.
Okay. Right? So how I feel needsto be expelled from my body, and
I do that by hand. And then onceI've gotten all my stuff out, I
lay out what the person did.Right?
(25:59):
And then I lay out how it mademe feel. And then by the time
I've done that, I feel better.Because not only have I given
myself the space to purge thethe angry, hard, kind of violent
stuff that we naturally feelwhen our boundaries are crossed
because anger is all about yourboundaries being crossed. I've
(26:21):
also outlined to validate thething that was done to me, and
then I have outlined andvalidated how that thing made me
feel. And I can literally seethat I have done this.
Because we have gotten so usedto language as a thing that you
hear Mhmm. Right, we forgetthat, like, communication is a
full body experience. So for me,part of writing the letter is
(26:45):
the tactile sensation of myfeelings quite literally leaving
my fingertips. Being able to seewith my eyes what it is that I
was experiencing. And then Ipull like, the final step is
like, and yet, I don't want thisin my body.
So in the court of, you know,Andrea Nicole Livingstone,
(27:08):
because it's my whole name.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:09):
Okay.
Nic Stone (27:09):
I am declaring you not guilty. You are free to go.
Bang my gavel.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:13):
So you're forgiving people without people
asking for forgiveness?Absolutely.
Nic Stone (27:17):
Because it ain't got nothing to do with them. For me,
forgiveness has everything to dowith me. How I interact with you
afterwards is likely to change,but at the same time, like, I'm
just not about to hold ontosomething. So then what I do is
I take the letter and I burn it,as in like an offering. You burn
it?
I burn it. So I have writtenthis letter. It's got all of the
(27:37):
stuff in it, and then I I burnit because it's like now it is
it's ash. And then I'm good.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:44):
What about when you want to get forgiveness
from another like, you feel likeI did this wrong or whatever?
How do you approach that?
Nic Stone (27:53):
When it comes to apologies, I do my best to make
sure I offer three differenttypes. So whatever has happened.
Sometimes, I don't know thatsomething has happened. Right.
And a person will come to me andbe like, you hurt my feelings
when you did ABC.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:11):
So people don't offer you the same grade?
Nic Stone (28:13):
I mean, I don't care. It's like, it's okay. Right?
Like, it's important for peopleto have the space to feel like
they can express what they needto express. Like, I had a friend
recently who we went tobreakfast, and she expressed
some frustration over the factthat there was something private
that I hadn't shared with her.
Right? So the apology Iapologized for making her feel
way. Right? And when I amapologizing, there's a and I
(28:37):
apologize. There's a I hope youcan forgive me, and there's a
I'm sorry for the thing that Idid.
Right? So, like, three it's it'scoming at you. You getting a
three. Shooting at shooting atyou three times. Yeah.
And then I'm letting myself offthe hook. Yeah. Like, I am not a
person who is going to hold agrudge against myself either.
(29:00):
What you do with my apology isnone of my business. But once I
have apologized, like, once Ifeel like I have taken
accountability
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:07):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (29:07):
And I have shown remorse, this what you decide to
do with that, I have no controlover. But I am very big on
taking accountability,acknowledging when you hurt when
I hurt somebody.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:21):
Yeah.
Nic Stone (29:21):
That it's very important because relationships
are super important to me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:24):
Have you ever, like, written or read
something that helped you, like,process forgiveness in a
different way or not reallybecause it's been your reality
all along?
Nic Stone (29:33):
I will say something that has changed for me over
time is the idea thatforgiveness is an imperative.
And I say that because there wasa point in time where based on
conditioning and, you know,indoctrination, if you will, I
(29:53):
would have said that, like,unforgiveness is a sin. Right?
Like, if there is somethingmorally wrong about refusing or
failing to forgive a person, andI just don't believe that
anymore. Right?
Like, I think it is anindividual decision. You get to
decide whether or not you wannaforgive somebody. If you wanna
hold a grudge, hold your grudge.What okay. Like, if you don't
(30:13):
mind how that feels, absolutely.
I don't feel that way. And thatcame as a result of, I can't
there there was it was a death.There was a death. And there was
a person a family member of theperson who was killed was like,
(30:34):
no. I don't forgive them, and Inever will.
And I had this moment where Iwas like, and that's okay. Like,
wait. You don't actually have toforgive people if you don't want
to. But that's really the onlything that has shifted for me
over time. Like, I'm allprobably gonna forgive.
Like I said, I don't like how itfeels in my body. Will I
continue to engage in therelationship in the same way?
(30:56):
Nah. Like, I am not a personwhose trust you have to earn. It
is given to you.
But once you lose it, it's gone.It there's no coming back. It
does not come back. So we cool.I'm not mad at you.
Yeah. But I'm also not
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:10):
But also you're out of this inner circle.
Nic Stone (31:11):
I'm good. Yeah. Like, I hope you have the best life,
genuinely. If there's anything Ican do to be of service to you,
let me know. But, yes, ourrelationship has changed.
Period. Period.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:27):
Y'all talking with Nick just makes me
wanna go out and live a littlelouder, and
I hope it does that for you too. I just I
adore how she thinks aboutgrowth, like, not as a pivot or
reinvention, but instead as thisexpansion, as adding lanes to
our highway. And I am absolutelytaking that from this
(31:50):
conversation today. It reallyshowed up everywhere in her
story from the risks that shetakes, the honesty she inherited
from her dad, the forgivenessthat she continues to practice,
just what great insights. Sothank you Nick for another
fabulous conversation.
(32:11):
This has been the readingculture and you've been
listening to our second chapterconversation with Nick Stone
again I'm your host Jordan Lloydbookie and currently I'm reading
for my book club culpability byBruce Holzinger and rereading
all of Sophie Blackall's picturebooks. If you enjoyed today's
(32:32):
episode, please show some loveand give us a five star or
written review wherever you'relistening to our podcast. It
just takes a second and itreally helps ensure that our
show gets shared with so manymore listeners. So thank you.
Thank you for doing that.
And to learn more about how youcan help grow your community's
reading culture, please checkout all of our resources at
beanstack.com. And remember tosign up for our newsletter at
(32:56):
the readingculturepod.comforward slash newsletter for
special offers and bonus contentthis episode was produced by Mel
Webb and lower street media andscript edited by Josiah Lamberto
Egan. Thanks for listening, andkeep reading.
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