September 24, 2025 • 35 mins
Tim Winton is regarded by many as the preeminent Australian writer of his generation. His awards could almost fill a book themselves now. And he’s come to Boorloo / Perth today to launch his first picture book in more than 20 years, and the first non-fiction picture book for children about Ningaloo reef, the world heritage treasure a thousand kilometres and some north of us here. It’s called Ningaloo: Australia’s Wild Wonder, spectacularly illustrated by award-winning Perth local Cindy Lane. And as it happens, it launches at the best and worst of times up at the reef.
Join me at the legendary local independent publisher Fremantle Press, for a chat with Tim about it all.
And if you happen to be in Perth ... ‘Ningaloo: Australia’s Wild Wonder’ will be launched in Perth tonight with the founder of the Telethon Kids Institute, former Australian of the Year, and Australian Living Treasure, epidemiologist Professor Fiona Stanley.
The book can be pre-ordered now, and will be in stores from the first week of October.
And if you happen to feel like hearing more of Tim and I in conversation, head to episode 162 on the extraordinary documentary about Ningaloo that Tim spearheaded a couple of years ago, and maybe even episode 17, way back in the beginning, just after the launch of the feature film adapted from his book Breath.
Recorded 24 September 2025.
Title image: the book cover (supplied).
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Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AJ (00:01):
G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your
ad-free, freely available,listener-supported podcast
exploring how people areregenerating the systems and
stories we live by.
I've come to Walyalup,Fremantle, this morning, at the
mouth of Derbal Yerrigan SwanRiver in WA, because Tim
Winton's in town to launch hisnew book.
Tim's awards would fill a bookthemselves now.
(00:23):
He's regarded by many as thepre-eminent Australian writer of
his generation and he's come totown today to launch his first
picture book in more than 20years and the first non-fiction
picture book for children aboutNingaloo Reef, the world
heritage treasure, a thousandkilometres and some north of us.
Here it's called Ningaloo: Australia's wild wonder, (00:41):
undefined
spectacularly illustrated byaward-winning Perth local Cindy
Lane, and as it happens, itlaunches at the best and worst
of times up at the reef.
Let's head into the legendarylocal independent publisher
Fremantle Press for a chat aboutit all.
Claire (01:02):
I don't know if you've ever met.
Did you meet him?
AJ (01:06):
Oh, I think we've met before G'day Tim.
How are you, mate?
Nice to see you.
Yeah, I think we met at anotherbook launch actually, and then
our chats have been.
You were in Sydney for your forBreath the first time you were
in a fan club somewhere, that'sright.
Yeah, in bloody by Sun DriveRiverbed heading up your way,
and then the next time was justonline.
But yeah, great to see you,mate.
So, um, back doing yourfavorite thing media and events.
(01:29):
How's it feel?
familiar new book.
Yeah, I always appreciatetalking to you, mate, so I think
it's not at all.
It's terrific to have the timetaking the interest.
All right, mate.
So we're here because you'relaunching your new book,
ningaloo, australia's wildwonder.
Well done, I'm really happy tosee it looks awesome.
It's different, though.
All right, mate.
So we're here because you'relaunching your new book,
ningaloo, australia's WildWonder.
Well done, I'm really happy tosee it.
It looks awesome.
It's different, though.
Huh, you haven't done a kid'spicture book, the publisher
(01:51):
tells me, for over 20 years, andnor has there been a
non-fiction kid's picture bookfrom Ningaloo ever, from what I
understand.
So how did this come about?
Tim (02:01):
I'm just trying to figure that out myself.
How did it come to this?
I don't know.
I think we've been.
You know, I've been studyingNingaloo and visiting Ningaloo
and advocating for it, for, youknow, 25 years, 30 years, and
I've done a lot of stuff indifferent spaces.
(02:23):
You know whether that's publicadvocacy.
I've written speeches.
I've done a lot of stuff indifferent spaces you know
whether that's public advocacy.
I've written speeches, I'vewritten essays, I've written
fiction, you know, with Juice,which is essentially a very
bleak nightmare vision of whatNingaloo could look like if we
lose the battle and abrogate ourresponsibilities.
And I've, you know, I'vewritten lose the battle and
(02:47):
abrogate our responsibilities,and I've written three parts of
a television series on thenatural history for the ABC.
So I guess this is a new spacein the sense that it's for young
people specifically, and so Iguess we've amassed a lot of
knowledge and a lot ofinformation and a lot of
experience about Ningaloo and itseemed that the best place to
(03:14):
take that stuff was to the young, given that they're going to be
the custodians of the place.
And also I have spent a lot oftime trying to convince old
people in power to change theirthinking.
And, you know, not without somesuccess, but you are up against
the educations that they've hadand the mindset that they've
(03:37):
grown up with and theirattitudes, which are essentially
, you know, exploitative andextractive.
And so in the end I justthought, well, essentially you
know exploitative and extractive.
And so in in the end I justthought, well, you know, it's
probably smart to take thisinformation to young people and
be a part of their education andtheir and their formation, and
(03:58):
to arm them with the naturalhistory, the data and the social
history of the place, so toshow them the wonders of
Ningaloo and its threeecosystems, but also to show
them that this stuff doesn'tstand in isolation, that the
fact that it's intact now is noaccident, that this is the
(04:19):
result of ordinary people'sefforts to change government
policy, to change the cultureand to essentially save the
place, which is what happened.
And I think in some publishingsettings you'd be under pressure
to just stick to thequote-unquote facts.
(04:41):
But the facts about whatanimals are there and how the
animals relate to the ecosystemand how the ecosystems relate to
one another, that's not all thefacts I mean.
The facts include how thisthing came to be in a geological
sense, but also how it came.
You know it comes to stillexist, and that's a social
(05:03):
reality that is too easilyoverlooked or somehow erased
from the picture.
So I think it it's aboutacknowledging the wonder and the
miraculous nature of what'sthere and to inspire young
people with a sense of awe andexcitement, but for them to also
(05:24):
get enough sense of empowermentwhere they can do something
similar in their world and intheir future.
Ningaloo is the one place wherewe got things right by and large
, compared to, for instance, inthe northwest of Western
Australia.
It's the exception to the rule.
The rule is completeexploitation, development and
(05:49):
landscapes that are completelyunrecognisable.
You know, and we're seeing thatbeing played out.
You know now at Murrajuga.
You know, where you have someof the social and natural
wonders of the world having tocoexist, you know, with really
destructive industrialactivities.
So we should celebrate Ningaloofor its exceptionality and show
(06:13):
kids that this is what canhappen when people get together
and defend a place and and havea different ethic about
custodianship and a shared senseof responsibility to a place.
AJ (06:27):
I'd love to come back to a few of those threads, tim,
though immediately I'm filledwith curiosity.
Even just the documentaryproject that you alluded to a
couple of years ago when we lastspoke.
That, when we spoke, had almostkilled you Out of your comfort
zone.
Various things happen, you endup with multiple roles and you
(06:48):
pull off an extraordinary thing,but it took a toll, it's fair
to say.
I'm wondering a project likethis, does it have the opposite
effect, or is it still aproduction thing that takes its
toll, or was this a bit of adifferent beast?
Tim (07:02):
Look, it's a shorter project, so the toll is
different and it's all work.
It's all labour, but it'sprobably a kinder process.
AJ (07:15):
You'd like to think so?
It's probably a kind of process, um, you'd like to think so
yeah, and, and it's um, I thinkit's uh a way of the way of
getting our revs in.
Yeah, that's right, donuts infreo.
That's why we're inside um, no,I think.
Tim (07:30):
I think it's a.
It's a, it's a fresh look atthe at the same issue, and I
think it's when you can putbeauty back in the frame and
that's where Cindy's artworkcomes in.
So I'm trying to arm the bookand the reader with the facts,
(07:51):
with natural history and socialhistory, but really it has to be
beautiful and I think that's.
You know Cindy was the rightperson and you know her practice
is really interesting.
She's a watercolourist.
She makes sure that.
You know, when she's paintingmangroves she uses mangrove
(08:14):
water in the mix and when she'sdoing the stuff on the reef,
she's using seawater.
AJ (08:21):
No way.
Tim (08:21):
Yeah, so that's just part of her practice and it brings a
kind of an organic element ofconnectedness and respect.
So beauty is important.
I think we overlook that at ourperil.
And so we're both artists.
(08:42):
And you know even though I'vebeen, you know, like a long-term
activist there's no point inhectoring people, whether
they're young or they're old,because they switch off, and if
you can't put somethingbeautiful in front of people to
inspire them, you've alreadylost half the battle, you know.
So I guess my position, youknow, as a grandfather of six,
(09:08):
is that you know, the world is amiracle and we need to be
reminding ourselves and makingthat knowledge, that
miraculousness, available toyoung people, to show them how
exceptional not just Ningaloo is, but our existence as a species
.
You know, this is reallyimportant and I think we
(09:30):
overlook that and that makes uspoorer, and I think you know we
are, you know, subject to ourown anguish and our own anxiety,
particularly around climate andbiodiversity loss and there are
many things to mourn.
But I think we become poorerand weaker and are less armed
(09:52):
for the struggle if we forgetabout wonder and the
miraculousness of existence, youknow.
AJ (10:01):
I note tonight at the launch that Fiona Stanley will be
helping to launch it.
How did that come about?
Tim (10:11):
I asked if she might be interested.
I know that you know Fiona as asenior, not just a public
person but a medicalpractitioner.
She's in the space ofchildren's health.
She's vitally concerned aboutthe future of the planet and the
(10:35):
future of young people and thehealth of young people,
particularly the climate.
She's also been a long-timesupporter of Protect Ningaloo,
the campaign that we've beeninventing and then running and
supporting for all these years.
So it seemed like a good fit.
It's Perth.
(10:55):
She's an establishment figure,but not your usual Perth
establishment figure in thesense of she's not.
Fiona doesn't see herself inthe role of perpetually
defending the status quo, and inPerth, you know, in the media
and in politics, most people areinvested in defending the
(11:17):
status quo, which usually meansvested, political and, you know,
corporate interests, andFiona's a standout in that sense
, which is probably what makesher a little bit spiky and
unpopular in certain parts of,you know, perth culture.
AJ (11:36):
Yeah, it occurs to me that her front row seat to kids and
their worsening health since shefounded the Kids Institute in
1990, and still ongoing, and youknow mental, emotional as much
as physical, and how they alltie in her front row seat to
that.
I mean you mentioned being agranddad before.
(11:57):
When I see her and when Ilisten to her speak, that's what
I feel.
I feel that she's charged bythat and in a sense representing
that.
Tim (12:07):
And to see her at the launch, it made perfect sense,
yeah, I mean, it's skin in thegame, isn't it?
You know, and I think if you'velived long enough and you've
seen things at work long enoughand you can see the trends and
the impoverishment of our youngpeople in terms of health and
(12:28):
mental health in the midst ofour really unbelievable
prosperity and just the mix ofthose you know.
So, look, I think you know I'mreally grateful that Fiona's
going to launch the book and Ithink it's a good mix.
AJ (12:48):
Yeah, I think so too.
I'm looking forward to it.
All right, I want to tie backin some threads to where we
started, and as much becausewhen I was coming down, I'm
thinking about Juice being yourprevious book and this and how
distinct they are.
And then and then coming backfrom overseas only recently and
keeping tabs and and hearing thenews about the declaration of
(13:08):
the marine park in Ningaloo, butthen also the mass bleaching,
this best and worst of timesthing I sort of see placed on
everything.
But I'm wondering, from yourpoint of view, can you tell us a
bit about, as you've been upthere and working at all this,
what the state is with that newmarine park?
What does it mean?
And then, on the flip side,yeah, how the reef is looking.
Tim (13:32):
Yeah.
So I mean, obviously it'sterrific news that the West
Australian government hascommitted formally to giving
Exmouth Gulf, the entirety ofExmouth Gulf, marine park status
, because that was our positionand that was what we'd been
advocating for for 10 years, andthat 30% of the Gulf would be,
(13:59):
you know, given over tosanctuary status, which is, you
know, really important.
So for those of us who've beenfighting that fight and trying
to convince decision makers tomake this step, it's, it's, it's
been terrific, it really isprogress, because we're
essentially trying to, you know,complete unfinished business
(14:19):
from the middle of the lastdecade.
Exmouth Gulf should have beenpart of the Ningaloo World
Heritage Area.
It was initially listed insidethe boundary, but vested
interests made sure that it wascarved out, and so this is a
little bit of justice, this is alittle bit of catch-up.
It's infuriating that it shouldhave to take so much extra, you
(14:45):
know, a decade of extra energyand effort and funding from the
community to produce thisoutcome.
But it's a good thing and Ithink it's encouraging that at
least in this space, the WestAustralian government has, you
know, seen itself free to makethe right decision, you know
(15:05):
when, so often they can look asif they're constrained by
obligations to other interests.
AJ (15:12):
Well you mentioned Murujuga before.
Yeah, just declared worldheritage.
Yeah, and extension of gasplant to 2070.
Tim (15:20):
Yeah, so you know, so we're making, we're still making
progress at Ningaloo in terms ofspatial protection, and that's
something to celebrate.
Because you have to celebratethe winds, because they're not
always that frequent, you know100%.
You have to celebrate the wins,because they're not always that
frequent, you know A hundredpercent.
AJ (15:37):
And just for context, for those who aren't aware,
listeners who aren't aware therewas well deluge is that
overstating it?
But just a lot of industrialpushes, various kinds that have
had to be fended off and workedthrough to come to this outcome.
It is a huge outcome.
Tim (15:55):
Yeah, no, it was huge.
2005, we knocked off theStraits salt, the Annery salt
proposal.
2017, we had to knock off thesubsea seven oil and gas
pipeline launching facility.
Then we, you know, last yearknocked off the K plus S the
world's, you know, biggest saltproducer.
(16:16):
They had another massive saltfacility plant.
You know, last year knocked offthe K plus S the world's, you
know, biggest salt producer.
They had another massive umsalt facility plant.
You know the size of the ofSydney Um and uh.
So to knock those out of the wayand then to get the park has
been great.
You know, what most peoplewon't still realise is that
we're still facing the threat ofthe deepwater port, smack dab
(16:41):
in the middle of the marine parkwhich they're still hoping to
get up at Quailing Pool, whichis now going to be a Class A
reserve.
So, you know, obviously theystill have ambitions to get a
little carve out and we'reobviously going to make sure
that that doesn't happen.
(17:02):
But you know, if ever there wasa company that couldn't read
the room, it would be them.
So it's not to say that we'vewon the battle there, but we, we
just have to make sure that,you know, we get proper
protection and that that there'sno um, somehow sweetheart deal.
You know it's not as if thatdoesn't ever happen in western
(17:23):
australia.
Well, that's been a.
You know, that's been a a greatbunch of results.
But in the face of all of that,yeah, as you say, we've had to
go through the worst bleachingevent in Ningaloo's history and
that was very painful.
You know, last year, thebeginning of summer, I was part
(17:52):
of an expedition to go to ScottReef, which was a big adventure
for us and I thought it might befun, but it turned out to be a
very bittersweet experience.
We travelled 400km north ofBroome.
We were closer to the island ofRoti in East Timor than we were
(18:14):
to the Kimberley by the time wegot right out there and this
huge underwater skyscraper comesto the surface at Scott Reef.
It's amazing.
And we, just from the moment wejumped in the water, I just
knew everything was wrong.
It was 36 degrees, oh, wow anduh.
And so I knew that.
(18:35):
You know we were getting in thewater at the top end of a
marine heat wave.
You know, we knew that all theyou know all that water is going
to come south because that'spart of the, the luan current
and sure enough, um you enough,as I drove south from that
experience.
Once we got back to Beagle Bayand drove back down the highway,
(18:58):
I felt like I was being chasedby a bushfire and that's really
what it was.
It was an underwater bushfirethat came all the way down the
coast and a few weeks later, theKimberley Corals started
bleaching, the Rowley Shoalsstarted bleaching.
The Rowley shoals, you know,were 90-something percent
bleached.
30,000 fish died in one fishkill in the Pilbara.
(19:20):
And then, you know, ningaloojust had, you know, its most
catastrophic bleaching event afew weeks after that, which is
still continuing because thewater is cooled.
But, um, the problem we havenow is that, um, uh, at the end
of winter and the beginning ofsummer, we normally expect water
(19:43):
temperatures to be at theirabsolute coolest.
Um, but we will start nextsummer with, um, warm to hot
water.
So that's, we're already goingsummer with warm to hot water.
So that's, we're already goingto start from too hot.
And you know so, the bleachingwas really an enormous shock to
(20:03):
people studying and living thereand people who love the place.
You know, it's quitedevastating to see it.
We don't yet know the extent towhich, how much we'll recover,
you know, and it's not, it'smostly the northern part of the
reef.
Coral Bay South was luckier,but it's still a huge.
(20:29):
If ever we needed a wake upcall.
Luckier, but it's still a huge.
If ever we needed a wake-upcall and there's been this sense
of immunity a false sense ofimmunity on on the west coast
about marina heat waves andcoral bleaching, because it's.
You know, what happens at thegreat barrier reef seems to be
oh, that's over there and poorold great barrier reef, lucky
for us.
But it's not going to happenbecause we do have a cold
(20:50):
current, but even the coldNingaloo current, which comes
upward from the south, wasn'tenough to cool this huge
underwater bushfire that wasjust devastating the environment
.
So it's something that we haveto use as a pivot.
(21:12):
Do we want this to be thefuture?
Because if we don't take urgentand serious and substantial
action now, these kind of marineheat waves will be, if not an
annual event at every few years,to the point where no reef can
(21:32):
recover.
At the moment we're on track tothree degrees, just short of
three degrees heating, which iscatastrophic.
You know the world is trying tokeep global heating to 1.5
degrees and we're kind of ontrack to overshoot that by a
long way, and that just meansyou, you know, the death of
world's corals.
(21:52):
And if we're okay with that,that's fine.
But you know it's not justabout the coral reefs of the
world.
You know, I think australiansdon't understand that at two
degrees, 2.7, 2.9, three degreesthe whole north of australia
will out.
You will have climate refugeesfrom within our borders, let
(22:15):
alone from outside our borders,and all those people in the
north.
You won't be able to live.
You know, if it's 55 degreesevery day, I know what 50
degrees feels like.
It's terrifying and the ideathat it could be like that for
weeks at a time.
People can't live that way, letalone produce food.
No, that's right.
(22:35):
And so people will just have tocome south.
You know, and it's all verywell to say you can stop the
boats, how are you going to stopthe utes?
So you know it's just going tobe people, and the most
consequential part of thattragedy will be the
dispossession, probablypermanent dispossession, of
(22:57):
First Peoples from country.
And you know that would beworse than colonisation.
If you can't, if yourobligations are to country, and
you can't physically be therebecause it doesn't support human
life anymore, what species ofgrief are we looking at that's?
AJ (23:18):
exactly where I wanted to go next, in fact, knowing that
there'd been joint managementdeclared at the reef and
wonderful process and genuineprocess with First Nations and
your documentary project ofcourse featured some profound
interactions and finds in thedigs, in the caves, that were so
(23:39):
emotional and portrayed in thedocumentary, so it's well worth
seeing.
For those who haven't seen it,I'm wondering in a sense, how
have the relationships continuedto form over the last couple of
years and also how they mightbe feeling and seeing this from
their perspective.
Always hard to talk for them,of course, but given you're here
with me and I haven't been backfor a couple of years, what's
(23:59):
your sense of it?
Tim (24:00):
yeah, I think.
I think, in terms of aconservation alliance, um, a
mutual effort, this is, you know, quite a special case now.
I mean, you know, the Ningaloocustodians only got native title
determination in 2019.
(24:22):
So we've been able to, you know, watch this in real time as
people came back to country.
So, you know, the NingalooCoast now has joint management.
The Duralia Station has beenreturned to First Peoples for
joint management as aconservation park, which is, you
(24:43):
know, quite a big addition tothe conservation estate, and the
declaration of the marine parkin Exmouth Gulf as a jointly
managed asset is a part of that.
I think if it hadn't been forthe alliance of conservation
interests and science interestsand custodians, first peoples,
(25:07):
then it would have been adifferent process and, I think,
a less successful process.
So that's been a great thing tosee.
That's not something that wesaw 25 years ago when we were
fighting the original SaveNingaloo campaign.
So I see that as a reallyimportant evolution and a sign
of progress.
I think Ningaloo's FirstPeoples are feeling empowered,
(25:32):
but embattled, if I can put itthat way.
I think there are young peoplecoming onto country, there are
older, senior people who areailing and getting older, and
some are leaving us, and sothere's a sense of urgency, um,
about things.
But I think, I think, you know,ningaloo's custodians have
(25:57):
always known that the place isfragile and their investment in
the life of the place is isancient, you know, and ongoing
and you know they'll, they'll,they'll keep honoring country
come what may and um, and but Ithink I think it's a, you know,
I think it's a reallyinteresting time to to see
(26:18):
people coming back on country.
There are more digs subsequent.
There have been a number ofdigs subsequent to our tv show
and I've, you know, been had theprivilege of um being there for
some of that and that's been agreat thing.
And you see new, young,traditional owners involved in
(26:38):
that each time and that's been,and that's been a terrific thing
.
So, you know, yeah, I thinkit's part of a, it's part of a
good story.
So, yeah, we face challenges,but we need to.
I think we need to rememberthat in order to face the future
in terms of climate andbiodiversity loss, we need
alliances, we need solidarity,we need a sense of possibility,
(27:02):
and that's what I was aiming tofoster, you know, with this,
with this children's book thissense of look at the miracle of
the world.
Look how beautiful and holy itis, look what we can do together
to keep it alive.
And I mean that just in terms.
I don't just mean that in termsof saving these ecosystems and
(27:26):
looking about this place, butit's about the broader challenge
of keeping the climate to thepoint where it's, you know,
making it habitable places overas much of the globe as possible
.
Life isn't going to be for mygrandchildren's children.
It's not going to be what itwas for you and me.
There's nothing we can do aboutthat.
(27:47):
I mean, we've left it very late.
We've, you know, we've fudgedit and kicked the can down the
road.
There's a, you know, there's acertain level of change for the
worse baked in, and we just haveto be honest about that.
But every, every action that wetake, every every percentage of
(28:07):
a degree that we take off, thesum total means more people get
to live better, more species getto survive, more landscapes and
landforms get to persist, andthat's worth fighting for.
Because, um, the idea that, okay, it's all too late, there's
nothing we can do, uh, that'sjust reckless.
(28:30):
And you know, if you, if you'vegot too little time left, does
that mean you don't want anytime.
If you can fight for more time,you take that time and you use
it.
And I think, if I saw somethingwritten today if you think that
your contribution doesn't makea difference or that your
country's contribution doesn'tmake a difference, why are we
(28:52):
still paying tax?
Every time you pay tax, you addto the common wealth.
Every time you avoid tax, likesome of our great corporate
friends, particularly in thefossil space, you're robbing the
rest of the people.
If you're okay with robbingpeople, put your hand up as a
thief, that's fine.
But if you're pretending thatyou're contributing, when you're
okay with robbing people, putyour hand up as a thief, that's
(29:12):
fine.
But if you, if you'repretending that you're
contributing when you'reactually robbing people, you're
a liar and we'll call you out?
AJ (29:18):
you know you said before about first nations folk they'll
honor country whatever comes.
I had in mind what that meantfor you even and, but you
proceeded to tell it.
Just what else are you going todo?
Tim (29:30):
yeah, I mean, and if you've I mean all of us have got skin
in the game.
If you have children or youdon't have children, everyone's
got friends, everyone's gotfamily, everyone's got
neighbours, we're in it togetherand we go down together or we
pull up together.
And every good thing that'shappened in this country and
there are lots of good thingsthat we've achieved in this
(29:53):
country they only came frompeople pulling together for the
common good, and if the commongood isn't a good enough excuse,
I don't know what is.
AJ (30:05):
And to hear some of those stories.
I mean even the great news outof Ningaloo right now and
Muraduga, and there's newscoming out of the Kimberley too,
as well as the bad stuff.
But yeah, it's not like we'restarting from scratch with that
stuff, with coming together.
Tim (30:21):
No, and I think we have to learn and we have to remember
the victories that we've had.
You know, in order to keepfighting the fight, you need to
remember what we've achieved,and that stuff arms you, and you
know, I'm an old guy who's beenaround and we've, you know,
been part of a bunch of battlesand I need to remind myself.
(30:42):
So it's even more importantthat we need to introduce young
people to the fact that goodthings have been done and good
things can happen.
They'll only happen if weprovide good information, we
keep our minds open and we formalliances across boundaries and
(31:05):
we get stuff done together.
This is a, this is a commoneffort.
It's not, um, it's not the workof individuals, because no one
person can save us, no oneperson is ever going to save us.
AJ (31:18):
Good time for a book that you co-produce with an
illustrator.
Tim (31:22):
In that sense, yeah, no, and, and honestly it's kind of
an antidote to to juice myprevious book.
You know it juices thenightmare of where we don't do
anything and we and we abrogateour responsibilities and consign
, you know, our descendants to anightmare world.
And this is a book that puts infront of ourselves, uh, all the
(31:45):
grandparents and the parentswho are going to have their
children on their knee orthey're going to buy this book
for their kids or theirgrandkids, as an instance of
what there is to celebrate andwhat there is to defend.
AJ (31:59):
Cheers, mate.
Well, you might remember wedon't go out before talking
about music.
What did you listen to comingdown or sort of what's in the
ears generally these days?
Tim (32:09):
It's funny.
There was a great American kindof roots singer-songwriter
called Chris Whitley who I wasseriously into years ago and in
fact we featured him on thealbum that we made for Dirt
Music when Lucky Oceans and Iwere producing that album.
(32:29):
That came out after my novel in2001.
And I hadn't heard it and ChrisWhitley's since died.
Sadly, he died in hismid-forties and I was listening
to his first great album, livingWith the Law, as I prepared to
come down, and it's a greatrecord.
Got a lot of terrific songs onit, so galore as I prepared to
come down, and it's a great,great record.
(32:51):
Got a lot of terrific songs onit.
So, yeah, I recommend having alook at Chris Whitley.
Somebody told me there's adocumentary about him called
Dirt Floor on YouTube, so itmight be worth a look.
AJ (33:05):
I can always rely on you for a tip I haven't had before.
Thanks, tim, on you mate.
Pleasure that was adored Aussiewriter Tim Winton.
With great thanks to yougenerous supporting listeners
for making it possible.
Special thanks this week toAndrew Carter and Jennifer Lowe
for becoming new subscribers andfor subscribers notching up
their third anniversary.
Thanks so much to GillianSanbrook, martin VanderWalt,
(33:28):
anne Goodall and Terry and pamMcCosker.
A nd Fiona Brook, thanks somuch for your four years of
support.
Just incredible, one and all.
If you'd like to join us, bepart of a great community, get
some exclusive stuff and helpkeep the show going, we'd love
you to Just head to the websiteor the show notes and follow the
prompts.
Ningaloo (33:47):
Australia's Wild Wonder, will be launched in
Perth tonight.
The book can be pre-ordered nowand will be in stores from the
first week of October.
And if you happen to feel likehearing more of Tim and I in
conversation, head to episode162 on the extraordinary
documentary about Ningaloo thatTim spearheaded a couple of
years ago, and even episode 17way back in the beginning, just
(34:11):
after the launch of the featurefilm adapted from his book
Breath.
And quick tip last week's stackof events here in WA, delivered
in spades.
I'll have more for you on allthat soon.
For now, the music you'rehearing is Regeneration by
Amelia Barden.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you you.
G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your
ad-free, freely available,listener-supported podcast
exploring how people areregenerating the systems and
stories we live by.
I've come to Walyalup,Fremantle, this morning, at the
mouth of Derbal Yerrigan SwanRiver in WA, because Tim
Winton's in town to launch hisnew book.
Tim's awards would fill a bookthemselves now.
(00:23):
He's regarded by many as thepre-eminent Australian writer of
his generation and he's come totown today to launch his first
picture book in more than 20years and the first non-fiction
picture book for children aboutNingaloo Reef, the world
heritage treasure, a thousandkilometres and some north of us.
Here it's called Ningaloo: Australia's wild wonder, (00:41):
undefined
spectacularly illustrated byaward-winning Perth local Cindy
Lane, and as it happens, itlaunches at the best and worst
of times up at the reef.
Let's head into the legendarylocal independent publisher
Fremantle Press for a chat aboutit all.
Claire (01:02):
I don't know if you've ever met.
Did you meet him?
AJ (01:06):
Oh, I think we've met before G'day Tim.
How are you, mate?
Nice to see you.
Yeah, I think we met at anotherbook launch actually, and then
our chats have been.
You were in Sydney for your forBreath the first time you were
in a fan club somewhere, that'sright.
Yeah, in bloody by Sun DriveRiverbed heading up your way,
and then the next time was justonline.
But yeah, great to see you,mate.
So, um, back doing yourfavorite thing media and events.
(01:29):
How's it feel?
familiar new book.
Yeah, I always appreciatetalking to you, mate, so I think
it's not at all.
It's terrific to have the timetaking the interest.
All right, mate.
So we're here because you'relaunching your new book,
ningaloo, australia's wildwonder.
Well done, I'm really happy tosee it looks awesome.
It's different, though.
All right, mate.
So we're here because you'relaunching your new book,
ningaloo, australia's WildWonder.
Well done, I'm really happy tosee it.
It looks awesome.
It's different, though.
Huh, you haven't done a kid'spicture book, the publisher
(01:51):
tells me, for over 20 years, andnor has there been a
non-fiction kid's picture bookfrom Ningaloo ever, from what I
understand.
So how did this come about?
Tim (02:01):
I'm just trying to figure that out myself.
How did it come to this?
I don't know.
I think we've been.
You know, I've been studyingNingaloo and visiting Ningaloo
and advocating for it, for, youknow, 25 years, 30 years, and
I've done a lot of stuff indifferent spaces.
(02:23):
You know whether that's publicadvocacy.
I've written speeches.
I've done a lot of stuff indifferent spaces you know
whether that's public advocacy.
I've written speeches, I'vewritten essays, I've written
fiction, you know, with Juice,which is essentially a very
bleak nightmare vision of whatNingaloo could look like if we
lose the battle and abrogate ourresponsibilities.
And I've, you know, I'vewritten lose the battle and
(02:47):
abrogate our responsibilities,and I've written three parts of
a television series on thenatural history for the ABC.
So I guess this is a new spacein the sense that it's for young
people specifically, and so Iguess we've amassed a lot of
knowledge and a lot ofinformation and a lot of
experience about Ningaloo and itseemed that the best place to
(03:14):
take that stuff was to the young, given that they're going to be
the custodians of the place.
And also I have spent a lot oftime trying to convince old
people in power to change theirthinking.
And, you know, not without somesuccess, but you are up against
the educations that they've hadand the mindset that they've
(03:37):
grown up with and theirattitudes, which are essentially
, you know, exploitative andextractive.
And so in the end I justthought, well, essentially you
know exploitative and extractive.
And so in in the end I justthought, well, you know, it's
probably smart to take thisinformation to young people and
be a part of their education andtheir and their formation, and
(03:58):
to arm them with the naturalhistory, the data and the social
history of the place, so toshow them the wonders of
Ningaloo and its threeecosystems, but also to show
them that this stuff doesn'tstand in isolation, that the
fact that it's intact now is noaccident, that this is the
(04:19):
result of ordinary people'sefforts to change government
policy, to change the cultureand to essentially save the
place, which is what happened.
And I think in some publishingsettings you'd be under pressure
to just stick to thequote-unquote facts.
(04:41):
But the facts about whatanimals are there and how the
animals relate to the ecosystemand how the ecosystems relate to
one another, that's not all thefacts I mean.
The facts include how thisthing came to be in a geological
sense, but also how it came.
You know it comes to stillexist, and that's a social
(05:03):
reality that is too easilyoverlooked or somehow erased
from the picture.
So I think it it's aboutacknowledging the wonder and the
miraculous nature of what'sthere and to inspire young
people with a sense of awe andexcitement, but for them to also
(05:24):
get enough sense of empowermentwhere they can do something
similar in their world and intheir future.
Ningaloo is the one place wherewe got things right by and large
, compared to, for instance, inthe northwest of Western
Australia.
It's the exception to the rule.
The rule is completeexploitation, development and
(05:49):
landscapes that are completelyunrecognisable.
You know, and we're seeing thatbeing played out.
You know now at Murrajuga.
You know, where you have someof the social and natural
wonders of the world having tocoexist, you know, with really
destructive industrialactivities.
So we should celebrate Ningaloofor its exceptionality and show
(06:13):
kids that this is what canhappen when people get together
and defend a place and and havea different ethic about
custodianship and a shared senseof responsibility to a place.
AJ (06:27):
I'd love to come back to a few of those threads, tim,
though immediately I'm filledwith curiosity.
Even just the documentaryproject that you alluded to a
couple of years ago when we lastspoke.
That, when we spoke, had almostkilled you Out of your comfort
zone.
Various things happen, you endup with multiple roles and you
(06:48):
pull off an extraordinary thing,but it took a toll, it's fair
to say.
I'm wondering a project likethis, does it have the opposite
effect, or is it still aproduction thing that takes its
toll, or was this a bit of adifferent beast?
Tim (07:02):
Look, it's a shorter project, so the toll is
different and it's all work.
It's all labour, but it'sprobably a kinder process.
AJ (07:15):
You'd like to think so?
It's probably a kind of process, um, you'd like to think so
yeah, and, and it's um, I thinkit's uh a way of the way of
getting our revs in.
Yeah, that's right, donuts infreo.
That's why we're inside um, no,I think.
Tim (07:30):
I think it's a.
It's a, it's a fresh look atthe at the same issue, and I
think it's when you can putbeauty back in the frame and
that's where Cindy's artworkcomes in.
So I'm trying to arm the bookand the reader with the facts,
(07:51):
with natural history and socialhistory, but really it has to be
beautiful and I think that's.
You know Cindy was the rightperson and you know her practice
is really interesting.
She's a watercolourist.
She makes sure that.
You know, when she's paintingmangroves she uses mangrove
(08:14):
water in the mix and when she'sdoing the stuff on the reef,
she's using seawater.
AJ (08:21):
No way.
Tim (08:21):
Yeah, so that's just part of her practice and it brings a
kind of an organic element ofconnectedness and respect.
So beauty is important.
I think we overlook that at ourperil.
And so we're both artists.
(08:42):
And you know even though I'vebeen, you know, like a long-term
activist there's no point inhectoring people, whether
they're young or they're old,because they switch off, and if
you can't put somethingbeautiful in front of people to
inspire them, you've alreadylost half the battle, you know.
So I guess my position, youknow, as a grandfather of six,
(09:08):
is that you know, the world is amiracle and we need to be
reminding ourselves and makingthat knowledge, that
miraculousness, available toyoung people, to show them how
exceptional not just Ningaloo is, but our existence as a species
.
You know, this is reallyimportant and I think we
(09:30):
overlook that and that makes uspoorer, and I think you know we
are, you know, subject to ourown anguish and our own anxiety,
particularly around climate andbiodiversity loss and there are
many things to mourn.
But I think we become poorerand weaker and are less armed
(09:52):
for the struggle if we forgetabout wonder and the
miraculousness of existence, youknow.
AJ (10:01):
I note tonight at the launch that Fiona Stanley will be
helping to launch it.
How did that come about?
Tim (10:11):
I asked if she might be interested.
I know that you know Fiona as asenior, not just a public
person but a medicalpractitioner.
She's in the space ofchildren's health.
She's vitally concerned aboutthe future of the planet and the
(10:35):
future of young people and thehealth of young people,
particularly the climate.
She's also been a long-timesupporter of Protect Ningaloo,
the campaign that we've beeninventing and then running and
supporting for all these years.
So it seemed like a good fit.
It's Perth.
(10:55):
She's an establishment figure,but not your usual Perth
establishment figure in thesense of she's not.
Fiona doesn't see herself inthe role of perpetually
defending the status quo, and inPerth, you know, in the media
and in politics, most people areinvested in defending the
(11:17):
status quo, which usually meansvested, political and, you know,
corporate interests, andFiona's a standout in that sense
, which is probably what makesher a little bit spiky and
unpopular in certain parts of,you know, perth culture.
AJ (11:36):
Yeah, it occurs to me that her front row seat to kids and
their worsening health since shefounded the Kids Institute in
1990, and still ongoing, and youknow mental, emotional as much
as physical, and how they alltie in her front row seat to
that.
I mean you mentioned being agranddad before.
(11:57):
When I see her and when Ilisten to her speak, that's what
I feel.
I feel that she's charged bythat and in a sense representing
that.
Tim (12:07):
And to see her at the launch, it made perfect sense,
yeah, I mean, it's skin in thegame, isn't it?
You know, and I think if you'velived long enough and you've
seen things at work long enoughand you can see the trends and
the impoverishment of our youngpeople in terms of health and
(12:28):
mental health in the midst ofour really unbelievable
prosperity and just the mix ofthose you know.
So, look, I think you know I'mreally grateful that Fiona's
going to launch the book and Ithink it's a good mix.
AJ (12:48):
Yeah, I think so too.
I'm looking forward to it.
All right, I want to tie backin some threads to where we
started, and as much becausewhen I was coming down, I'm
thinking about Juice being yourprevious book and this and how
distinct they are.
And then and then coming backfrom overseas only recently and
keeping tabs and and hearing thenews about the declaration of
(13:08):
the marine park in Ningaloo, butthen also the mass bleaching,
this best and worst of timesthing I sort of see placed on
everything.
But I'm wondering, from yourpoint of view, can you tell us a
bit about, as you've been upthere and working at all this,
what the state is with that newmarine park?
What does it mean?
And then, on the flip side,yeah, how the reef is looking.
Tim (13:32):
Yeah.
So I mean, obviously it'sterrific news that the West
Australian government hascommitted formally to giving
Exmouth Gulf, the entirety ofExmouth Gulf, marine park status
, because that was our positionand that was what we'd been
advocating for for 10 years, andthat 30% of the Gulf would be,
(13:59):
you know, given over tosanctuary status, which is, you
know, really important.
So for those of us who've beenfighting that fight and trying
to convince decision makers tomake this step, it's, it's, it's
been terrific, it really isprogress, because we're
essentially trying to, you know,complete unfinished business
(14:19):
from the middle of the lastdecade.
Exmouth Gulf should have beenpart of the Ningaloo World
Heritage Area.
It was initially listed insidethe boundary, but vested
interests made sure that it wascarved out, and so this is a
little bit of justice, this is alittle bit of catch-up.
It's infuriating that it shouldhave to take so much extra, you
(14:45):
know, a decade of extra energyand effort and funding from the
community to produce thisoutcome.
But it's a good thing and Ithink it's encouraging that at
least in this space, the WestAustralian government has, you
know, seen itself free to makethe right decision, you know
(15:05):
when, so often they can look asif they're constrained by
obligations to other interests.
AJ (15:12):
Well you mentioned Murujuga before.
Yeah, just declared worldheritage.
Yeah, and extension of gasplant to 2070.
Tim (15:20):
Yeah, so you know, so we're making, we're still making
progress at Ningaloo in terms ofspatial protection, and that's
something to celebrate.
Because you have to celebratethe winds, because they're not
always that frequent, you know100%.
You have to celebrate the wins,because they're not always that
frequent, you know A hundredpercent.
AJ (15:37):
And just for context, for those who aren't aware,
listeners who aren't aware therewas well deluge is that
overstating it?
But just a lot of industrialpushes, various kinds that have
had to be fended off and workedthrough to come to this outcome.
It is a huge outcome.
Tim (15:55):
Yeah, no, it was huge.
2005, we knocked off theStraits salt, the Annery salt
proposal.
2017, we had to knock off thesubsea seven oil and gas
pipeline launching facility.
Then we, you know, last yearknocked off the K plus S the
world's, you know, biggest saltproducer.
(16:16):
They had another massive saltfacility plant.
You know, last year knocked offthe K plus S the world's, you
know, biggest salt producer.
They had another massive umsalt facility plant.
You know the size of the ofSydney Um and uh.
So to knock those out of the wayand then to get the park has
been great.
You know, what most peoplewon't still realise is that
we're still facing the threat ofthe deepwater port, smack dab
(16:41):
in the middle of the marine parkwhich they're still hoping to
get up at Quailing Pool, whichis now going to be a Class A
reserve.
So, you know, obviously theystill have ambitions to get a
little carve out and we'reobviously going to make sure
that that doesn't happen.
(17:02):
But you know, if ever there wasa company that couldn't read
the room, it would be them.
So it's not to say that we'vewon the battle there, but we, we
just have to make sure that,you know, we get proper
protection and that that there'sno um, somehow sweetheart deal.
You know it's not as if thatdoesn't ever happen in western
(17:23):
australia.
Well, that's been a.
You know, that's been a a greatbunch of results.
But in the face of all of that,yeah, as you say, we've had to
go through the worst bleachingevent in Ningaloo's history and
that was very painful.
You know, last year, thebeginning of summer, I was part
(17:52):
of an expedition to go to ScottReef, which was a big adventure
for us and I thought it might befun, but it turned out to be a
very bittersweet experience.
We travelled 400km north ofBroome.
We were closer to the island ofRoti in East Timor than we were
(18:14):
to the Kimberley by the time wegot right out there and this
huge underwater skyscraper comesto the surface at Scott Reef.
It's amazing.
And we, just from the moment wejumped in the water, I just
knew everything was wrong.
It was 36 degrees, oh, wow anduh.
And so I knew that.
(18:35):
You know we were getting in thewater at the top end of a
marine heat wave.
You know, we knew that all theyou know all that water is going
to come south because that'spart of the, the luan current
and sure enough, um you enough,as I drove south from that
experience.
Once we got back to Beagle Bayand drove back down the highway,
(18:58):
I felt like I was being chasedby a bushfire and that's really
what it was.
It was an underwater bushfirethat came all the way down the
coast and a few weeks later, theKimberley Corals started
bleaching, the Rowley Shoalsstarted bleaching.
The Rowley shoals, you know,were 90-something percent
bleached.
30,000 fish died in one fishkill in the Pilbara.
(19:20):
And then, you know, ningaloojust had, you know, its most
catastrophic bleaching event afew weeks after that, which is
still continuing because thewater is cooled.
But, um, the problem we havenow is that, um, uh, at the end
of winter and the beginning ofsummer, we normally expect water
(19:43):
temperatures to be at theirabsolute coolest.
Um, but we will start nextsummer with, um, warm to hot
water.
So that's, we're already goingsummer with warm to hot water.
So that's, we're already goingto start from too hot.
And you know so, the bleachingwas really an enormous shock to
(20:03):
people studying and living thereand people who love the place.
You know, it's quitedevastating to see it.
We don't yet know the extent towhich, how much we'll recover,
you know, and it's not, it'smostly the northern part of the
reef.
Coral Bay South was luckier,but it's still a huge.
(20:29):
If ever we needed a wake upcall.
Luckier, but it's still a huge.
If ever we needed a wake-upcall and there's been this sense
of immunity a false sense ofimmunity on on the west coast
about marina heat waves andcoral bleaching, because it's.
You know, what happens at thegreat barrier reef seems to be
oh, that's over there and poorold great barrier reef, lucky
for us.
But it's not going to happenbecause we do have a cold
(20:50):
current, but even the coldNingaloo current, which comes
upward from the south, wasn'tenough to cool this huge
underwater bushfire that wasjust devastating the environment
.
So it's something that we haveto use as a pivot.
(21:12):
Do we want this to be thefuture?
Because if we don't take urgentand serious and substantial
action now, these kind of marineheat waves will be, if not an
annual event at every few years,to the point where no reef can
(21:32):
recover.
At the moment we're on track tothree degrees, just short of
three degrees heating, which iscatastrophic.
You know the world is trying tokeep global heating to 1.5
degrees and we're kind of ontrack to overshoot that by a
long way, and that just meansyou, you know, the death of
world's corals.
(21:52):
And if we're okay with that,that's fine.
But you know it's not justabout the coral reefs of the
world.
You know, I think australiansdon't understand that at two
degrees, 2.7, 2.9, three degreesthe whole north of australia
will out.
You will have climate refugeesfrom within our borders, let
(22:15):
alone from outside our borders,and all those people in the
north.
You won't be able to live.
You know, if it's 55 degreesevery day, I know what 50
degrees feels like.
It's terrifying and the ideathat it could be like that for
weeks at a time.
People can't live that way, letalone produce food.
No, that's right.
(22:35):
And so people will just have tocome south.
You know, and it's all verywell to say you can stop the
boats, how are you going to stopthe utes?
So you know it's just going tobe people, and the most
consequential part of thattragedy will be the
dispossession, probablypermanent dispossession, of
(22:57):
First Peoples from country.
And you know that would beworse than colonisation.
If you can't, if yourobligations are to country, and
you can't physically be therebecause it doesn't support human
life anymore, what species ofgrief are we looking at that's?
AJ (23:18):
exactly where I wanted to go next, in fact, knowing that
there'd been joint managementdeclared at the reef and
wonderful process and genuineprocess with First Nations and
your documentary project ofcourse featured some profound
interactions and finds in thedigs, in the caves, that were so
(23:39):
emotional and portrayed in thedocumentary, so it's well worth
seeing.
For those who haven't seen it,I'm wondering in a sense, how
have the relationships continuedto form over the last couple of
years and also how they mightbe feeling and seeing this from
their perspective.
Always hard to talk for them,of course, but given you're here
with me and I haven't been backfor a couple of years, what's
(23:59):
your sense of it?
Tim (24:00):
yeah, I think.
I think, in terms of aconservation alliance, um, a
mutual effort, this is, you know, quite a special case now.
I mean, you know, the Ningaloocustodians only got native title
determination in 2019.
(24:22):
So we've been able to, you know, watch this in real time as
people came back to country.
So, you know, the NingalooCoast now has joint management.
The Duralia Station has beenreturned to First Peoples for
joint management as aconservation park, which is, you
(24:43):
know, quite a big addition tothe conservation estate, and the
declaration of the marine parkin Exmouth Gulf as a jointly
managed asset is a part of that.
I think if it hadn't been forthe alliance of conservation
interests and science interestsand custodians, first peoples,
(25:07):
then it would have been adifferent process and, I think,
a less successful process.
So that's been a great thing tosee.
That's not something that wesaw 25 years ago when we were
fighting the original SaveNingaloo campaign.
So I see that as a reallyimportant evolution and a sign
of progress.
I think Ningaloo's FirstPeoples are feeling empowered,
(25:32):
but embattled, if I can put itthat way.
I think there are young peoplecoming onto country, there are
older, senior people who areailing and getting older, and
some are leaving us, and sothere's a sense of urgency, um,
about things.
But I think, I think, you know,ningaloo's custodians have
(25:57):
always known that the place isfragile and their investment in
the life of the place is isancient, you know, and ongoing
and you know they'll, they'll,they'll keep honoring country
come what may and um, and but Ithink I think it's a, you know,
I think it's a reallyinteresting time to to see
(26:18):
people coming back on country.
There are more digs subsequent.
There have been a number ofdigs subsequent to our tv show
and I've, you know, been had theprivilege of um being there for
some of that and that's been agreat thing.
And you see new, young,traditional owners involved in
(26:38):
that each time and that's been,and that's been a terrific thing
.
So, you know, yeah, I thinkit's part of a, it's part of a
good story.
So, yeah, we face challenges,but we need to.
I think we need to rememberthat in order to face the future
in terms of climate andbiodiversity loss, we need
alliances, we need solidarity,we need a sense of possibility,
(27:02):
and that's what I was aiming tofoster, you know, with this,
with this children's book thissense of look at the miracle of
the world.
Look how beautiful and holy itis, look what we can do together
to keep it alive.
And I mean that just in terms.
I don't just mean that in termsof saving these ecosystems and
(27:26):
looking about this place, butit's about the broader challenge
of keeping the climate to thepoint where it's, you know,
making it habitable places overas much of the globe as possible
.
Life isn't going to be for mygrandchildren's children.
It's not going to be what itwas for you and me.
There's nothing we can do aboutthat.
(27:47):
I mean, we've left it very late.
We've, you know, we've fudgedit and kicked the can down the
road.
There's a, you know, there's acertain level of change for the
worse baked in, and we just haveto be honest about that.
But every, every action that wetake, every every percentage of
(28:07):
a degree that we take off, thesum total means more people get
to live better, more species getto survive, more landscapes and
landforms get to persist, andthat's worth fighting for.
Because, um, the idea that, okay, it's all too late, there's
nothing we can do, uh, that'sjust reckless.
(28:30):
And you know, if you, if you'vegot too little time left, does
that mean you don't want anytime.
If you can fight for more time,you take that time and you use
it.
And I think, if I saw somethingwritten today if you think that
your contribution doesn't makea difference or that your
country's contribution doesn'tmake a difference, why are we
(28:52):
still paying tax?
Every time you pay tax, you addto the common wealth.
Every time you avoid tax, likesome of our great corporate
friends, particularly in thefossil space, you're robbing the
rest of the people.
If you're okay with robbingpeople, put your hand up as a
thief, that's fine.
But if you're pretending thatyou're contributing, when you're
okay with robbing people, putyour hand up as a thief, that's
(29:12):
fine.
But if you, if you'repretending that you're
contributing when you'reactually robbing people, you're
a liar and we'll call you out?
AJ (29:18):
you know you said before about first nations folk they'll
honor country whatever comes.
I had in mind what that meantfor you even and, but you
proceeded to tell it.
Just what else are you going todo?
Tim (29:30):
yeah, I mean, and if you've I mean all of us have got skin
in the game.
If you have children or youdon't have children, everyone's
got friends, everyone's gotfamily, everyone's got
neighbours, we're in it togetherand we go down together or we
pull up together.
And every good thing that'shappened in this country and
there are lots of good thingsthat we've achieved in this
(29:53):
country they only came frompeople pulling together for the
common good, and if the commongood isn't a good enough excuse,
I don't know what is.
AJ (30:05):
And to hear some of those stories.
I mean even the great news outof Ningaloo right now and
Muraduga, and there's newscoming out of the Kimberley too,
as well as the bad stuff.
But yeah, it's not like we'restarting from scratch with that
stuff, with coming together.
Tim (30:21):
No, and I think we have to learn and we have to remember
the victories that we've had.
You know, in order to keepfighting the fight, you need to
remember what we've achieved,and that stuff arms you, and you
know, I'm an old guy who's beenaround and we've, you know,
been part of a bunch of battlesand I need to remind myself.
(30:42):
So it's even more importantthat we need to introduce young
people to the fact that goodthings have been done and good
things can happen.
They'll only happen if weprovide good information, we
keep our minds open and we formalliances across boundaries and
(31:05):
we get stuff done together.
This is a, this is a commoneffort.
It's not, um, it's not the workof individuals, because no one
person can save us, no oneperson is ever going to save us.
AJ (31:18):
Good time for a book that you co-produce with an
illustrator.
Tim (31:22):
In that sense, yeah, no, and, and honestly it's kind of
an antidote to to juice myprevious book.
You know it juices thenightmare of where we don't do
anything and we and we abrogateour responsibilities and consign
, you know, our descendants to anightmare world.
And this is a book that puts infront of ourselves, uh, all the
(31:45):
grandparents and the parentswho are going to have their
children on their knee orthey're going to buy this book
for their kids or theirgrandkids, as an instance of
what there is to celebrate andwhat there is to defend.
AJ (31:59):
Cheers, mate.
Well, you might remember wedon't go out before talking
about music.
What did you listen to comingdown or sort of what's in the
ears generally these days?
Tim (32:09):
It's funny.
There was a great American kindof roots singer-songwriter
called Chris Whitley who I wasseriously into years ago and in
fact we featured him on thealbum that we made for Dirt
Music when Lucky Oceans and Iwere producing that album.
(32:29):
That came out after my novel in2001.
And I hadn't heard it and ChrisWhitley's since died.
Sadly, he died in hismid-forties and I was listening
to his first great album, livingWith the Law, as I prepared to
come down, and it's a greatrecord.
Got a lot of terrific songs onit, so galore as I prepared to
come down, and it's a great,great record.
(32:51):
Got a lot of terrific songs onit.
So, yeah, I recommend having alook at Chris Whitley.
Somebody told me there's adocumentary about him called
Dirt Floor on YouTube, so itmight be worth a look.
AJ (33:05):
I can always rely on you for a tip I haven't had before.
Thanks, tim, on you mate.
Pleasure that was adored Aussiewriter Tim Winton.
With great thanks to yougenerous supporting listeners
for making it possible.
Special thanks this week toAndrew Carter and Jennifer Lowe
for becoming new subscribers andfor subscribers notching up
their third anniversary.
Thanks so much to GillianSanbrook, martin VanderWalt,
(33:28):
anne Goodall and Terry and pamMcCosker.
A nd Fiona Brook, thanks somuch for your four years of
support.
Just incredible, one and all.
If you'd like to join us, bepart of a great community, get
some exclusive stuff and helpkeep the show going, we'd love
you to Just head to the websiteor the show notes and follow the
prompts.
Ningaloo (33:47):
Australia's Wild Wonder, will be launched in
Perth tonight.
The book can be pre-ordered nowand will be in stores from the
first week of October.
And if you happen to feel likehearing more of Tim and I in
conversation, head to episode162 on the extraordinary
documentary about Ningaloo thatTim spearheaded a couple of
years ago, and even episode 17way back in the beginning, just
(34:11):
after the launch of the featurefilm adapted from his book
Breath.
And quick tip last week's stackof events here in WA, delivered
in spades.
I'll have more for you on allthat soon.
For now, the music you'rehearing is Regeneration by
Amelia Barden.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you you.
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