Decaying Morality w/ Jamie McShane

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Done done, Hello, and welcome to another episode of That's

(00:31):
Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
I'm Kara Klink and I'm.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Lee's A Traeger and here we talk SVU true crime
and we have cool guests and we're living a dream.

Speaker 4 (00:42):
Jk No. We are micro microlife, great, Macrolife.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Every every perspective that's good micro Macrolife. Yeah, macrolife, losing
our rights every second of the day, microlife.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
I know, I'm doing a show and these people from
Dallas or in the front and I went, how does
it feel visiting?

Speaker 4 (01:04):
Do you feel free? Do you feel fun?

Speaker 2 (01:07):
And they had a nice little chuckle. I do want
to say, I mean, we're in the time machine whatever.
But Thanksgiving weekend, my family already pre bought tickets to
see Wicked that Friday. On Friday, Yeah, the grandma's, me
and my sister and the niece. Where I'll go in
how fun? Yeah at a two pm. And my sister's like, whoa,

(01:31):
there's barely any tickets.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
I go. Yeah, I've been telling you for weeks, this
is a big deal, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
You're going to Wicked on Thanksgiving and I'm going to
Mawana too. I mean I'm excited. You know, I'm excited
for ma Wana too, but Wicked. I really want to
see Mawana. I really want to see Wicked. I just
have to figure out who's gonna go with me. Yeah,
I don't know. I just I know I'm gonna cry.
I don't know what. There's just a lot of crying.
There has been, like not that I would expect anything

(01:58):
last I mean, it is like a huge thing. And
I've actually been hearing that the movie is good, like
review wise, I think people are saying it is awesome.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
I've just it's been so much marketing. I mean, you know, we.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Watch Housewives side like I Rebecca bing cough they did
that full like so I actually, I mean, who knows
everyone on the internet is a grifter.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
But I happened upon like some marketing girl podcast and
they were saying that it's actually places paying to license
Wicked stuff and make products. It's not like Wicked is
paying these people. It's not like a marketing thing where
it's like, ah, ge get with this company. It's these
companies being like could we please license it for our

(02:40):
eyeshadow or whatnot.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
And so it does seem like a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Because it is, but it's because people are trying to
capitalize on it or like these businesses and whatnot. I
also was like, I don't know, it's split whatever. And
then I saw these influencers going and doing a go
before and after and everyone was in tears, and I go, oh,
I cry just hearing defying grad like on the radio.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
Not that it's on the radio, but.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
And I think it really feels like and maybe they're
just great actresses, but like Cynthia Rivo and Arianna seem
like they have like a genuine friendship in.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Real theater kids, that's a lot of the TikTok too,
people being like why do they keep crying? And it's
like have you never done theater? Have you ever talked
to somebody in a play? Yeah? Like these are mania
and I mean just watching the Cynthia but I'm just
not as familiar with her as obviously Ariana Grande. But
the I reposted this, but it was it's a video

(03:33):
of her because John im chu is saying, He's like
the fact that this bitch is doing her own stunts
flying in the air, acting and singing is very few
people in the world could do something like that.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
Like I think she is like the.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Singular talent, and I'm excited to see how they're live
singing in ropes, flying in the.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Air, Like, yeah, that must have been on your that
must have been your in so that I saw that
because I was watching a whole video of her with
those fucking blue flips and it looks intense.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, and that yeah, whatever, I'm like really excited for things.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Well.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Also, you know, it was both my nephew's birthdays. One
respects and does like me, and the other he likes
vineyard vines and it's an issue and I think I've
talked about it.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
He is, like the transformation into bro is really moving forward.
Vineyard vines. Oh I didn't tell you this. Yeah, Oh
I didn't know about that.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, because I was like, hey, what should I get it?
You know, birthday I want to do? And they're like, vin,
I go excuse me, Like that is so gross. And
it's like he like looks up to his cousins who
are live in the South, so it's like they don't
know any better. And you know, he he's young, and
so I was like, Okay, I'm not going to change him,
but I'm gonna get him nicer stuff, like better stuff

(04:48):
of that genre. I can do that for him. But
I'm old, so I don't actually know the cool stuff.
So I've been sourcing. I've been asking people. I've been
trying to get brands of stuff that you know, the
kids will think is cool. And then there were two
twenty two year olds in the front row of a
show and I was like, oh my god, you're young boys.
Can you help me? And I go what about LA Costs?

(05:10):
And I go, well, Notla Costs? And I go, okay,
this is good. This is good, thank you. I need
this feedback. This is so funny. And so they told
me Barber bar bou r As was that is so
fucking preppy.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
And when I went to college, every girl wore a
Barber jacket, like that is such a preppy brand. But
it's like, I think it's British or something, so it is, yeah,
and I guess it's on succession a lot. But the
sweatshirts all having in huge letters because then I bothered
everyone at the cellar as well, and I was like,
what do you guys know like, and someone was like, no,
it's an old money brand, so like he should like

(05:44):
if he were a sweatshirt and it said Barber, like
that's kind of gross, and I was like, okay, fuck.
So I found a fleece and I've just been like
searching these brands, like trying to impress them, and then
I enlisted my other nephew's girlfriend.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
I was like, why do I keep asking? They're old people?
Like I have the source, so I actually oh. And
then someone recommended Perry Ellis and I loved it and
it looked so cute.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
It's the skinhead brand. Did you know that?

Speaker 1 (06:11):
No?

Speaker 2 (06:11):
What?

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Before the purchase, Yeah, I google is Perry Ellis cool
and it's all the reddits were skinhead, skinhead, proud boy,
Nazi like Berlin, can you wear it in Berlin?

Speaker 1 (06:24):
And I go, oh my god, thank god, No, Wow,
you dodged a bullet with the Google. Good job.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
So I'm really impressed with myself. It's not preppy, but
I think because what I'm trying to show my nephew
is like I'm actually cooler than anyone else you want
to look up to, Like.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
I'm in the know, you know what I mean, Like
I'm cool.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
So I got kiss, Okay, I bought ben Jerry Seinfeld. Yeah,
but also the the dad from Succession did a campaign
and their whole thing is like off kilter or like
older peace. Well, because Maggie Smith, I feel like, did
a campaign with that or did she know someone else sold?
Then she had a last campaign, but it might not

(07:06):
be with them, no lueve loev oh what.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
Whatever? So I did Kith, and I was like, what
is this? Praise this?

Speaker 2 (07:14):
And then finally Benji's girlfriend was just like, trust me,
he'll be happy with anything.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
Kith. And his whole thing is like brands and like
money and all that.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
And so I got him like a sweatshirt, crew neck
sweatshirt and a hat with the logos and it's all kids.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
And then Benji's a little more calm, so I got him.
It looks so cool. It's like a knitted sweater but
a hoodie ooh yeah. And I know he'll like it
because he's a little more hippie and chill. But I'm
really excited. So you guys will find out how they
reacted to the kith and if I'm cool or not.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
See, but if you.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Also have brands going formate gift giver, You're you're researching,
you're talking to the people. You're out there, like honestly,
you this is why you have a skill.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
But he likes like the quarter zips, but the one
had stripes, and his dad was like, it kind of
reminds us of the concentration camp. You can't do it,
And I like, go, okay, I won't do it. Quarter
zips like reminds me of old That's so funny. But
I had stripes. Yeah, they didn't want it. That's so
funny that.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Barber is back, because that was like the smell of
barber jackets. They smell like Crayola crayons because it's like
there's like a waxy thing on it, and it's like
it will always remind me of college. Like if I
smell someone in a barber jacket, I'm like college, of course.
But then also to a surprise that will shock you
very little, is that there is a vineyard vines in

(08:38):
my hometown.

Speaker 4 (08:39):
So I feel like your.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Nephew would love a shopping spree in Old New Kingaan, Connecticut.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
It's just not even that expense.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
That's what I'm I'm like, I'm like, honey, I got you, Like,
stop looking up to these cause I just it's like.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Whales and watermelons and little embroidered belts and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's very preppy. It's just like preppy stuff.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
I know Kith isn't preppy, but hopefully you know he
likes Travis Scott, which is cool. Yeah, I don't know
what I'm talking about. Like, I really don't even know.
So when those little boys went well not la cost
I go, oh my god. Okay, let's good.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Wait, let me ask you a question. Do you remember
when your sister gave your nissa nephew's cell phones. No,
it's been like a huge convo with like me and
other moms and like just people that.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Well, I like what our friend did where it's like
a kid Apple watch thing but it's only texts the
parents or something.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yes, like yeah, it's like like caul.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
And text just parents, and I think it geolocates so
like you can track them or whatever.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
Yeah, so yeah, that is definitely the thing.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
But like moms were talking about, like, well, what do
you do when like they're ten or eleven and like
all their friends have a full phone and you're and
I'm like, I don't know. I think I'm holding out
till fourteen. I think I'm just gonna have to be
the jerk parent. But the parents are like, you have to,
you have to, you have to join together. Like there
are schools where they do pledges to say, let's all
not give our kid a phone till after eighth grade,

(10:03):
like they and they ask all the parents to like
sign the pledge.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
I don't know, Yeah, but isn't the new thing. Were
you talking about this? Or maybe it's someone else where.
It's like their house you get exactly this house you don't.
And we're all different. Different houses have different rules. Oh
my god, let me tell you what happened. Let me
tell you what happened for different houses, different rules. Okay,
So my friend was over here with her kid, who's
Rosie's friend, and she's really cool, she's not like an
up aty mom, but she did say the kids were like,

(10:28):
we're not allowed to have skittles and the mom goes,
it's the only candy. I say no too, because she's
from the UK, and she's like, it's literally banned in
other countries, like the red dye is supposed to be
really bad, so it's the only one I say no too.
And I was like, okay, I just I honestly like,
I feel like I read that and then I thought
they changed it, and so I've never really like given
much thought to It's not like my kids are having

(10:48):
Skittles on the daily.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
So then the next day and she kind of explains that,
and Rosie hears it. And then the next day we're
at ice skating and her friend alex gives her an
osky each a little pack of Skittles, and Rosie's like,
we can't have this. This is toxic.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
You can't.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
These are bad for your body. And I go, Rosie,
that's the rule in their house. That's not even the
rule in our house. And that's not the rule for Alexander,
So don't don't say that. So I'm trying to like,
I'm trying to like, you know, be like, you know,
different rules, different houses. So we get home and Rosie goes,
I know, let's take the skittles and put them in
a cup of water and then the dye will come

(11:27):
off and I can just eat them without the dye
on them. And Jared goes, yeah, right, that's gonna take forever.
We stick the skittles in the water. The dye comes
off in seconds. And my kids are just sitting there
eating white skittles, and Jared is like, we need to
call a science fair. Rosie is a genius. I don't know.
I'm sure they still and they taste good. The dye

(11:49):
is just for college. It's just the dye. They taste
the same. They're just sitting there. We dried them, we
strained them, we dried them off. They were eating white skittles.
I was never like, we have to be off skined.
Skittles are such a rare occur, like it's Halloween whatever
that once they eat a couple bags of skittles, they
get a Halloween. It's not like I'm constantly bringing skittles
into the home. But I just thought it was so
funny that Rosie was like innovation.

Speaker 4 (12:11):
Hold on, I've got an idea anything to get skittles.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Anything, And I was gonna get on anyway.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
I don't, I don't know, I don't. That's just not
where I go candy. I never was a starbarst Skittles person.
I always wanted chocolate as a kid, and then like
I love gummies now, but again, like I would never.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Buy skittles or Starburst.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
I'll have a red one if it's around. That's what
I mean.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
It's like if i'm if they're getting a skittle, it's
a kid's from someone else bringing into the home, because
we're really chocolate people. But also, how is the die
on a skittle different than the die on an M
and M.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
I should look that up.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
I'm not asking you like like you like you should
be telling me the answer. I'm just kind of thinking
out loud, like I don't know. There's just so many
things we're supposed to worry about. The phones, the skittles.
All right, well, I gotta maybe I'll ask your sister.
I'll be like, when to do phones? How do you
control phones? I don't know. I'm nervous about phones. I
feel like, Oh, my friend was telling me her kid

(13:10):
is in a study. He's like the control of the study.
And it's like you and this scientist told her, like you,
you cannot believe how much it's fucking kids up, like
the screens, like having phones and iPads and stuff.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
She's like it.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Literally you were seeing scoliosis and stuff like and joints
like nexts, next posture, spine, spinal curvature because of like
how they're bent down.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Look, well, I don't know why we're shocked, Like we
as adults have no control over it. We're all addicted,
I know, hours a day, so I don't know, like
that's my whole thing. I'm like, well, I want to
be on it, so like why would I? But like
it was causing long term effects.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
But the interesting thing was that they were saying TV's
not as bad because it's far away from you. Like
when you're watching it, like there's peripheral stuff happening in
your vision. You're like, oh, my brother's playing, my dad's
getting a phone call, it whatever, Like you're seeing other
stuff like in around you when you're watching TV. But
like if it's it's the up closeness of like the
phone and the iPad that just kind of like you're

(14:09):
just zoned into that world and like nothing else.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
I saw really funny TikTok and it was a woman going, Hey,
if you're a parent worrying about screen time, I want
you to know that my kids have zero We do
zero screen time, and they're the worst kids.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
I've ever met.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
I love that. That helps me so much.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
She was like, so screens or no screens, these kids suck,
so do what you want to do. And then, of
course in the comments there is someone who was like, well,
we have unlimited screen time and my kids the best.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
And it's like, okay, but yeah, I thought that there's
a million fucking factors. But that is so funny. I
love to hear that. I mean, you know, I let
my kids watch a ton of TV and movies and stuff.
We don't have iPads or anything, but we do TV.
The movie is also attention. You have to pay attention forurs.
It's exact ten second YouTube slot and you don't know
who is.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
It's just like a girl, hi guy, I hate it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, Like I don't do the YouTube because I think
that that's like him. Well had I had a woman
tell me, she goes, that's the one thing the horse
I wish I could put back in the barn is YouTube.
Like I wish I didn't let my kids just like
blindly watch YouTube because it's like, uh, it's like they
can't watch a movie, they can't do anything for long
periods of time. The attention span is completely fucked.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
I think it doesn't fucking matter.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
And if they feel left out, they feel left out,
and then they can bitch about you. Like I just
I don't think you should give in. I think you
should stand strong no matter what the people around you
are doing. I know.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
And it's like I wasn't allowed to watch TV during
the week and I'm obsessed with TV, and so am
I gonna make them obsessed with their phones even more?

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Who knows what can I do?

Speaker 1 (15:41):
I can't control it, but I'm trying to just know
of it until their brain's done developing.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
It's not about obsession. It's about the curvature of their spine.

Speaker 4 (15:50):
I know, you know what I mean. It's not like
and a dude, they're gonna love it more.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
It's they're they're truly ruining their I mean, the people
that work in tech don't let their kids phones. The
phones are in the kitchen like anyone that's close to it,
and look around.

Speaker 4 (16:04):
It's same.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
There's a comic whose aunt worked on the team who
made microwaves, and guess what, the bitch has never used
a microwave in her life. Like, if the people on
the inside are not doing it, you should either.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Right right, that's so yeah. Well this is coming out
on a December third.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Happy Today is a Simpsons trivia night.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
I wonder if I can make it or not. We'll see. Yeah,
you gotta get back there. Oh and I'm on the road.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
So this weekend, I'm actually in Cincinnati, so I'm gonna
go to the Zoo on Saturday. But shows it's at
the Commonwealth and my friend Tommy McNamara is opening, who's
like really funny, And then I keep writing It's December ninth,
and for people, I'm in red Bank, New Jersey on
December nineteenth, which.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Is so cute. Red Bank is such a cute town.
Oh great, Did I ever tell you about the job
I had when I worked for the I worked for Illumination,
the company that made the Minions before the Minions movie
came out, Like I was, I saw the Minions before
they ever hit those streets. And I would commute from
New York to Red Bank two hours each way, but
only every other week, and the every other week I

(17:15):
could stay home, and so I thought it was worth it.
It was not worth it, but Red Bank is so cute,
like it's so got.

Speaker 4 (17:22):
It's a really cute town.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
So go see Lisa red Bank if you want to
find legit and then links.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Oh yeah, well, and then December twenty first, I'm at
the Bellhouse in New York. And then twenty twenty five
dates we could worry about. Yeah, then I don't know.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
But don't just google Lisa Cincinnati because I feel like
sometimes you get shitty links. So go to That's Messed
Up Live dot com if you want, or Lisa's Instagram
and those both take you to like the official link
trees that have all of the ticket links to those shows.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
No, hopefully you're all noticing my front facing videos. She's
out there, she's marketing, she's promoting. But also while you're
at Thought's Messed Up Live, you can go to our
shop link and get tons of our fun merch We've
got do you have children detective stuff. We also have
a new Christmas ornament. You have to order by December

(18:11):
twelfth in order to get stuff by Christmas, so get
on there. Orders over seventy five, get free shipping, grab
yourself some That's Messed Up Love for Christmas, or you know,
leave a little note for the leave the browser open
for your partner or friend, who's looking for a gift
idea for you? And that's that on that should we

(18:32):
get started on the episode?

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, let's go okay today, this one is a rough one.
We are doing Decaying Morality Season sixteen, episode thirteen.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
But it reminds me of defying gravity. But it's not
just you and I Decaying Morality. Yeah, it's one of
the worst. I texted care I started watching and I go,
oh no, this one, please, no, I don't want to
do this one. No, this is one of the worst,

(19:09):
and I have yeah do it?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, yeah, okay, So yeah, this baby came out in twenty.

Speaker 4 (19:13):
And Haley Lou, I mean it's exciting.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, it's exciting but dark but amazing actors, so many
storylines at once. Yeah, I'm excited to Did you feel
like it was a more recent episode? It is, but
then it wasn't like I thought it was truly season
twenty something and it's season what fifteen to sixteen, like
and it's almost ten years old, like this episode it's crazy.
It is weird for me when I was shocked when

(19:37):
I saw it. Actually, yeah, because one of my cases too,
it like started right before this, but it didn't.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
End till twenty twenty three.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
So at first I went, oh, this is probably a
wiki mistake, and then I was like, oh, it's like
it was ongoing, and so I yeah, yeah, buckle up,
Buckle up those who uh don't watch.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Because yeah, here we go. Yeah, a lot of twists
and turns and nothing good. But you know, we love
the show, so we and so we persist.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
We open on.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Live and Rollins at a coffee shop, just having a
little girl's night.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
It's nighttime.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Rollins has been on a little hiatus the last two episodes,
since the Forgiving Rollins episode, which we've covered, where the
old Atlanta Boys came to town and she had to
deal with all their raping asses and you know, she
had to confess that like, shit wasn't great when she
was down in Atlanta.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
So she apparently just.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Got back from a yoga retreat in Costa Rica, and
who's paying for that?

Speaker 4 (20:34):
Yeah, I'm also like, I.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Kind of don't buy that for Rollins, but whatever, I'm like,
you're like a you're like an adrenaline junkie.

Speaker 4 (20:39):
You're not gonna like you know, she was so zen.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
She said she didn't even flinch when a yogi tapped
her on her shoulder while she was meditating at the
summit of a volcano. It's like, I don't know, I
don't see this for Rollins, you know.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
What I see she she was fucking a few people. Yeah,
I think she was fucking some people in this little
Hawaii uh volcano getaway.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Absolutely absolutely and lives like, okay, cool, so you'll stay
in therapy, and Rollins just kind of rolls over and
it's like, I'm just really sorry for what I put
you guys through, and lives like, girl, I'm sorry for
what you've been through, and you know, classic as a
VU trope. Meanwhile, same night, on in another part of
the city, a young girl is walking through the New
York City streets and from her point of view, men

(21:21):
are just harassing her NonStop, Like the camera is at
her point of view and she's just trying to She
looks a little bit shaken, and men just keep being like, hey, mommy,
where are you going, Like what's up girl, like blah
blah blah, and she's like heavy breathing.

Speaker 4 (21:33):
She looks traumatized.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
It is Haley lou Richardson, who has been working for
so long but really came into my life the most
through White Lotus season two is where I really feel
like she popped playing Portia. I did see Split, but
I don't remember her specifically, but her.

Speaker 4 (21:51):
White Lotus character.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
I feel got a lot of attention for the wardrobe
and how bad it was, but how particular it was
to this character.

Speaker 4 (21:58):
And I just like she was so good.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
That character was so good, that was so funny character
like a like like, you know, a lot of assistance
to rich people are played the same way all the time,
and Porscha was so like what like she just had
no idea and was so got completely wrapped up in
an insane storyline. And yeah, she's a great character. I

(22:25):
can't wait to see more from Haley Lou. It is
funny that her name does sound like Hallolu, which is
Angela's catchphrase. But this poor girl, just like stress, walks
right past Rollins and Benson's cute little girl's night okay,
which they also love to do. Now she's in a
nasty bathroom of a pizza place and she's still.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Which is like the most unrealistic thing has done that.
You could just waltz into a pizza spot and use
the bathroom. I don't think so no way, no, not
unless you're buying a slice, babe. And I just don't
feel like I've ever gotten to use the bathroom in
a slice place.

Speaker 4 (23:03):
Ever.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
I don't think I have. I can't think of it.
I can't think of one.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, I mean it's fine.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
New York is a real gauntlet if you have to pee,
it really is. It's like you got to really figure
out the places that you can go. But she is
splashing water on her face. She's looks really upset. Someone
keeps knocking on the door, and he's like, I have
customers waiting.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
Are you okay?

Speaker 5 (23:29):
And there?

Speaker 1 (23:29):
What are you doing? What are you doing? Then he
comes in and he's like you're okay. I got you,
I got you, And she's like no, please leave me alone,
and then the camera pans away and it looks like
classic s few, like, fuck, something bad is about to happen.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
This girl's about to get assaulted in the bathroom.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Rollinson Lives step outside into the cold New York City
night and their outerwear talking about how Amorro's had a
bad month, and I'm like.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
When has he ever had a good month?

Speaker 1 (23:51):
And like Noah's asthma's flaring up like everyone's got problems.
And as they're about to call it a night, they
see an altercation between the girl and the pizza place
guy outside and he's like, I'm trying to give you
your purse, and she's screaming accusing him he took my purse.
He attacked me, and then she goes he raped me,
and so Live cuffs the guy and credits all right, So.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
And we have to say the dude is black and
she is white.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
So yes, yes, the guy at the pizza place is
a is a black guy, and so it's not you know,
it's a it's a bad situation for everybody that she's
just like, it's also crazy that there's just two SBU
cops hanging out nearby, you know. So at the hospital
we find out that the girl's name is Jenna, that

(24:35):
Haley Loew's name is Jenna, and she had alcohol and
clonaza pan in her system. And I swear to god,
we've talked about a lot of drugs on the show.
They say clonaza pan like ninety times in this episode.
I had to write so many oh my god, so
much Cleanazapan. There was bruising possible semen on the sweater
and evidence of a Tornheimen and Rollins is like, wow,

(24:59):
this guy rapes a semi conscious sixteen year old virgin
on the floor of a pizzeria bathroom and lives like,
welcome back, babe. And so now we're in interrogation. The
pizza place guy is being questioned by Amorrow and Careesi
and he's like, you guys got it all wrong. I
was trying to help her and the guys and he goes,
I know you cops all hate me, but I didn't
do this. And Tomorrow's like, we don't even know you.

(25:21):
And the guy's like, well, now I know you're messing
with me. And then Finn pops in and pulls the
boys out while the pizza place guy is like puffing
on his inhaler. There's a lot of asthma in this episode.
Finn explains to Tomorrow and Careesi that this guy is
the Jerome Jones. He's one of the Prospect Park three
and they are three kids that were held on a
gang rape charge. All three of them confessed, then they

(25:43):
got off because of some DNA to contamination issue with
the lab. Then all three of them recanted and saying
the confessions were coerced and they have a thirty six
million dollar lawsuit pending with the city, and so the
guys are horned to keep talking to Jerome, but Finn's
like Barbara says, go easy on him until he gets there.
So now back to Live is at the hospital talking
to Jenna's parents. The dad is played by Jamie McShane,

(26:05):
who has been in a million things, like he's in Bloodline,
He's in a ton of shows that I've watched, and
another s of you that he's in is we've covered
is called The Burden of Our Choices where that little
girl Evangeline comes from Ohio to get an abortion because
her dad, her fucking stepdad, impregnated her, and he's he
plays her priest who's like God wants this baby whatever.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
So now he's here.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Later as he's now here as the dad, I'm sorry,
I think that Burden of Our Choices is a later episode,
so he's the dad here and then later he's the priest.
The mom is Eva Kaminski. She was also in the
episode Cold, which is the episode where everyone thinks Chester
Lake killed someone and he's like on the run the
whole time, but I don't actually know who she plays
in that episode. Anyway, they're obviously upset. They tell them

(26:49):
they have a suspect in custody, and then they're telling
them there were tracing Jenna's like steps from earlier in
the day, like she had a dentist appointment, and then
she never came home, and the dentist is on his way,
and Ben's makes a face like what, I'm sorry you
called your dentist to come to the hospital, and they're like, no,
he's Jenna's uncle, the mom's brother. He consults for the
NYPD as well, and they want to make sure everyone's

(27:09):
taking the shit seriously, so obviously, you know here he comes.
They say Jenna doesn't drink, she doesn't do drugs, she's
a straight A student, and I'm like, you know, you
can do both. Just FYI like, you can drink and
do drugs and also gets trade. A's uncle dentist shows
up and he is played by Paul Adelstein.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
Who I really like him. I think he's attractive. I'm
into what's his name, Paul Adelstein. Yes, I like Paul Adelstein. Well,
it's crazy because he plays a lot of shitty guys,
like he.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Was at show, Like I recognize him also from a
show I barely ever watched, but because it was on Bravo,
obviously I absorbed The Girlfriend's Guide to Divorce, Oh, which
he plays.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
The ex husband of the main character. And that show. Oh,
and I'm sure he's like a tool.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah. And then and also in this show Chance that
I watched, which is the show starring the guy from House,
he plays like an extremely abusive husband. So I've seen
him in a bunch of things where he's like a
very bad but.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
You know, and not that theater people can't be bad,
but it's like he does play bad, but I'm sure
he's just such a little theater dork in his yeah,
true spirit.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Yeah, but yeah, physically he's hot. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
And he's here. He's doctor Alexander and Benson knows him immediately.
She's like, yes, I recognize you from all of the
dentistry cases that we've had to have you testify at
she's been and and she was like, I recognize you
from the case of Ellie Porter. And he calls her
the burnt Girl, and you know, I think that makes
live fluinch a little bit. And he says, yeah, listen,

(28:44):
Jenna was in for an appointment. I gave her some
leighta Kane and Nitriss, but those were off fast. She
was fine when she left, and now Jenna is waking up,
so they all, like, you know, rush to her room,
and he says to the parents, he's like, you should
go to like you should be there. When she's talking
to the cops, she doesn't remember how she got to
the pizza parlor. She remembers leaving uncle dentist Neil. His

(29:04):
name is Neil, the dentist. She remembers leaving Uncle Neil's
and then going to her friend Kara's place to study
I love It Lucky Yeah, another Kara. She denies drinking,
but says she felt sick at Kara's, so she must
have decided to leave. She remembers going to the pizza
place to go to the bathroom, and then she mentions
the guy coming into the bathroom. She remembers that's when

(29:26):
it gets hazy. She remembers being cold the sweater, her
sweater and her skirt were pushed up. His belly was
rubbing against hers. It hurt, but she couldn't move. He
got it all over her. She says she's apologizing to
her dad, who looks like extremely shook and it is
traumatizing to have to recount all of this in front
of your parents.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
And he tells her it's not your fault.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
And at the precinct, Barbara breezes in in a tux
now looking dapper as hell, like he has just come
from some kind of met galas.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Or not met Gala.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
He's come from like some kind of policeman's ball where
the tickets are, and they tell him about the sweater seamen,
which could either nail the guy or if it's not his,
he like, you know, Jerome has grounds for another false
arrests lawsuit and they'll be all working in Staten Island,
which apparently is the worst nightmare for all of these cops.
And Barba's like, well, let me go alone. Yes, yeah,

(30:20):
Barba's like, let him go until this case is air tight.
This guy's waiting on a thirty six million dollar judgment
that from the city that he's probably gonna get he
is not a flight risk. And someone has to tell
Live that they're cutting this guy loose and caresee's the
new guy, so he gets the short straw. So Lives
now on the phone annoyed because she's like, but Jenna,
I did him, and she tells Careesi to talk to

(30:41):
the coworkers, rush the DNA and get security footage from
the pizza place. So she gets interrupted by Uncle Dentist
who's like, well, my dental connects at one PP just
told me that you cut my niece's rapist loose.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
What the fuck?

Speaker 1 (30:55):
And then he tells the dad Luke and also that
the suspect is one of the Prospect Park three. He
goes and the dad goes, oh, he's one of them,
a known thug rapist who got off on a technicality,
which is like, look, the whole sentence is fully coded
in racism. And Uncle Dentist is gassing Luke up too.
He's like telling him about the lawsuit, that's why they're

(31:15):
giving him special treatment, and Benson's like, we just need
more evidence. We're still working on the case. But the
dad is like, who's pulling your strings? Al Sharpton, and
then the dad storms off, So, you know, sadly, I
think this dad did vote for Trump.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
At the precinct.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
The download from Kara's family is that Jenna's backpack is
still there, but that they were not partying, but Jenna
did look kind of Green when she left. Around six o'clock,
traffic cameras have Jenna on the street heading to the
pizza place. Ten minutes later, she leaves. They're getting terru
on the footage from inside the pizza place because there
was like a glitch and they obviously need Taru to like,
you know, clean it up. Live's phone rings, and before

(31:52):
she picks it up, she calls him, Barbara, I can
hear it, and it is there, tid cool she.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
Does call it.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
She goes, Barber's gonna want us to get on this
or whatever, and so if you guys want to see it.
End of act one of this episode, we get a
Barbara from Live uh oh music swells Live is not
getting good news on the phone, and she says, we
don't need to put a rush on that DNA anymore.
Cut to a crime scene. Forensics is already there taking photos.
Jenna's dad, Luke, is cuffed and looking despondent. Then, once

(32:23):
Finn and Caresy arrive on the scene, they pan to
the floor where Jerome is lying they're dead, near a
tripod and a camera, and Luke is like, I was
just trying to get him to record a confession. I
didn't mean to kill him, but there's a chair with
rope and Caresee's like, this doesn't look like an accident
and he's not wrong. So now after the commercial break,
we're seeing footage of the forced confession session where Jerome

(32:47):
is tied to a chair. Luke has a nail gun
and just keeps like nailing nails into the wall right
behind him, demanding that he confess to what he did
to his daughter, and Luke keeps saying.

Speaker 4 (32:57):
Nothing, nothing.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Jerome is coughing, He's begging the guy to stop. Luke
is threatening to shoot the nail gun through his dick,
and Jerome's like, okay, okay, I did it. I raped her,
and then he starts saying my chest, I need air.
He's coughing, and then they stop the video. I mean,
thank god, I really did not want somebody to watch
somebody suffocate on camera. They stop the video, Finn goes.

(33:20):
It goes on from there. Luke did give CPR, but
the medical examiner says he died from a heart attack
triggered by asthma.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
Luke called nine one one. He didn't mean to kill
the guy.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Barba's like, it does not matter, Luke Davis is looking
at felony murder, which, as we remember I've only learned
through the course of doing this podcast, is when you
kill somebody in the course of committing another crime, Like
even though it's not like a planned murder, you did
kill someone while you were doing so it's felony murder,
which Careese is like, yeah, but he'll get off if

(33:51):
he can prove extreme emotional duress, and Barbara goes boo, yeah,
fordam law, which feels like it feels like he's kind
of being condescending but also giving a compliment like classic
Barbera and Benson's like, we need to push the DNA
and the tar oo footage from the pizza place to
see if this guy is good for Jenna's attack. If

(34:12):
he's the guy, no jury is gonna convict Luke, and
Barba's like, cool, thanks. If you guys come to a raiment,
keep your mouth shut, like I don't need you to
be like helping get this guy off.

Speaker 4 (34:21):
So now at a round.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
I don't like that they're so gung ho about trying
to get him off. They're like, it's I don't know,
I don't like it. It's just like duress are not
like this young man died without core. Its thing, and
we don't know white woman, black man, Like I don't know.
We believe victims here at SVU, but like, what the fuck.
I don't care if he gave CPR, he was stressed,

(34:44):
what happened to his daughter. I'm not I'm devastated. Yeah,
it's really hate the scene I get. And you someone
who has asthma, how does that feel?

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yes, it's I it's scary. I mean like it is
really like I don't know, it's ares me. But also
I think like they are like I love this actor
Jamie McShane, but like they're lightly coding this guy as
like racist. He's immediately jumping to the fact that and
this guy that's like I have to It's like you
can't just let the cops do their job. You're like,

(35:16):
I have to go seek justice, like I have to
go take care of my baby girl or whatever. And
I think that's a little bit why we are not
like finding a lot of sympathy for him, even though
he did not want this to happen at least at
this moment. Okay, So now at arraignment, Luke is represented
by none other than Lorenzo D'sapio and if you'll remember,

(35:36):
he is the attorney who entered into a relationship with
his client, Kim rolins, Oh, so.

Speaker 4 (35:41):
I wouldn't say not what is it, Vincenzo.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
What his name Lorenzo, Direpio, Lorenzo. She's always like, well,
mister D'sapio says, and then she starts calling him Lorenzo
because now they're in a relationship, like because Kim is
a freaking crazy person. So he's pleading not guilty for
Luke mister Dasapio, and the courtroom erupts like. Jerome's family

(36:05):
is all in there. They're furious. The mother is so upset,
she's crying. She's going he killed my baby. Barbara wants
remand D'sapio wants ro r. The judge is like, sorry,
no vigilantes aloud, and he sets the bail at one
million dollars. Jerome's family cheers when they hear the bail amount.
Jenna is there like apologizing, hugging her dad. Uncle dentist

(36:26):
is like, we're gonna get you out. So in the hallway,
Jerome's mom is talking to the press and telling them
the NYPD framed my son for this. Rape for the
original rape and now they're doing it again. They set
them up to be killed. She points to Jenna.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Looking that great for him though too, it's like multiple
accusations at this point. Yeah, one false accusation. Okay too,
that's you.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Know, right right, And then she sees Jenna points at
her calls are a liar, goes, you killed my son,
and Cariesi arrives with more bad news. Taru got the
camera footage. Jerome was in the bathroom for less than
two minutes, so now they're watching the video and Cariese's
giving the play by play. She goes into the bathroom
for eight minutes. A line forms again, who are all

(37:13):
the people waiting in line to use this disgusting pizza bathroom?
But anyway, a line forms. Jerome knocks. He goes in
at six point thirty and he's in there for ninety
seconds with the bathroom door ajar the whole time, like
if you were going to be attacking, you would close it,
lock it behind you whatever. He follows her out with
her purse. She has her clothes and tights on. The
tights is the clincher too, because it's like, yeah, we've

(37:36):
seen people commit rapes very quickly on this show. Remember
the episode contact. I mean that is between two subway stops.
But we all we know as ladies, tights are not
coming on and off in a quick way, you know,
like tights are and he's fully closed. So maybe Jenna
was assaulted first and conflated things Live suggests and they're like,

(37:57):
or she's a sixteen year old girl who got drunk
sex and was afraid to tell her parents and lives
like go check with her friends, find out how she
got the clonaza pan.

Speaker 4 (38:06):
We're back on the.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Cut to jail where Jenna and her mom are talking
to Luke through the glass with the phones right, like
what do you call that? What do you call that
little phone booth like on you know where you get
to talk through the phones.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Oh, I never thought about my official name. Hopefully you
never have to use one of those carats.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
I hope I never have to, but maybe, like but
in an acting scene or something, Yeah, to be like
I wired you the money.

Speaker 4 (38:31):
It should be coming through. There should be money in
your commissary. Now that's my audition. I had the glass,
yeah and go I'm thinking of you baby.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, So okay, the mom is going, well, they're saying
this guy is innocent, and Luke's like yeah, but Neil,
who is uncle dentist, is saying it's just politics, and
he's like the dad asks Jenna, he did this to you, right,
and Jenna's like, I mean, even if I'm not sure,
it's better if I just say it was right, it's
better for you. And then uh oh, honey, watch a

(39:04):
television show. They record those convos, so they cut to
Jenna in wood room Blinds talking to Amarl and Rollins
and they're like playing her the time, like.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
You can't even shower in private, and you think you
get to just go on the phone with no.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, no, yeah. So they're like, so, hey, girl, what
do you mean when you said that? She's like, I
won't do anything to like fuck over my dad, and
they tell her, well, we know it wasn't Jerome, but
we do think something happened to you. And now outside
of this woodroom blind's interrogation, Jenna's mom is mad that
she can't go in, but Finn and Careesi are trying
to just convince her to chill so that Jenna will

(39:41):
like spill, you know, which is like it's like much
easier without your parents there. She's already had to like
give all the details about like semen in front of
her dad and mom. So so, Jenna finally admits she
had a couple sits from a vodka bottle, but no
pills or drugs when she was at Kara's house, because
you know how we party at Kara's house, guys, we
get the vodka bottle passing. So after Kara's house, her

(40:02):
memory gets fuzzy. She remembers she was sitting during the attack,
and Rollins goes show us, which they've never done anything
like that before, Like I've never seen them be like
acted out right now, and they make her like lean
back in the chair. She leans back, She looks up.
She remembers sliding down in the chair. She says, I
was holding onto the arm rests. I remember his belt

(40:24):
buckle clinked over and over. He pulled up my sweater.
I couldn't move. His hands were so cold. They asked
her was there any watch? Was there jewelry? She goes
a big ring like and then she stops herself and
she goes, don't tell my mom please, Like she's clearly
very worried for how much this has already affected her family.
And then she goes a ring like my uncle Neil

(40:45):
wears and she's like, I think it was him, and
they say think or no, and she says it was him.
My uncle Neil raped he raped me.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
It's like the bit.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
It's such a twist, but it's like, I also kind
of know when you see the uncle come in Paul Adelstein,
and you're like, he's got a lot of IMDb credits, Like,
I don't think he's just coming in to be supportive
uncle who works for the NYPD, you.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Know, No, And yeah, for me, it was the NYPD
of it all, like, yeah, oh what a smart movie,
little rape guy, you have volunteer for the cops exactly.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
So Benson and CREESI are behind the glass and Caresa
goes an uncle would do her?

Speaker 4 (41:26):
Uncle did it?

Speaker 1 (41:26):
I can't believe that and lives like yeah that what
how long have you been? I mean it's like season sixteen.
Haven't you been here for a minute?

Speaker 4 (41:32):
Like we're we're seeing.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Uncles do this kind of shit all the time. Back
at Live's office, they're figuring all this out. Barbara's not psyched.
He's like, aside from being an NYPD consultant. He's big
on the charity circuit. They were probably at the same
black tie event earlier this episode, and he sets up
dental clinics in third world countries.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
I don't give a shit.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
Remember Jimmy Saville, wasn't he like a huge charity guy too.
He's testified in dozens of cases. If he's convicted, all
those cases are under scrutiny, which it is wild how
many times somebody directly involved with the NYPD does something
fucked up and they have to be like all those cases,
like if it's not Rudnick, this guy judges like all
kinds of people that have testified, and Jenna has no

(42:17):
motive to lie. They're like, she remembers the ring, the
details line up with a dental DT.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
Do you think she lied in the beginning and because
she was scared and there is gil or do you
think she really was in like a psychosis kind of state.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
I think you could be so traumatized by someone you
trust and know, who's a member of your family doing
that to you, that she could have totally been in
like a like a fugue state of like just complete
trauma of like that happening plus the fact that she
was on these drugs, you know, like kleanazepan is gonna

(42:51):
make you all fucked up.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
So that fucked with her memory.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yea.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
So I don't think she was lying on purpose about Jerome.
I'd like to think not. But so they were like, yeah,
she remembers the ring, and all the details line up
with the dental office, including the clonazapan. Finn's like, this
is why I don't trust dentists, and I just lol,
I mean, like that's so good, Like when he just
never goes to the dentist he doesn't trust them, or
like he brings someone to watch while he goes under.

Speaker 4 (43:17):
I just went to the dentist yesterday. You know, I
love we usaid this. I miss him. I miss him.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
I actually I don't know what I'm gonna do. It
was a really pleasant experience. So I'm on the journey, okay.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
And then Benson's like, why is the DNA on the
sweater taking so long? So she tells Amorrow and Careesi,
why don't you buddy up to uncle dentist and get
his DNA. So at his office they're talking to him.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
Like a pal.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
They're like, hey, bro, like you're basically a cop, like
we are, you know, let's talk bro to bro, you know.
They're like, we're just trying to get all the Evans
together so we can pin this on Jerome, and we
just need your DNA so we can rule you out
because obviously you're the greatest guy in the world. And
then a hygienist comes in and Neil introduces her as
his wife, Jaya. They also then she's like, come on,

(44:04):
you have another patient, So right before he leaves, they're like,
can we swab you?

Speaker 4 (44:07):
And he's like sure.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
So then Jaya is getting them a list of all
the patients and explaining that anti anxiety drugs would be around,
but they're usually locked up, and they're like, well, they
have been in the room during Jenna's appointment, and she's like,
oh my god, yeah, totally, it's totally possible.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
They were in the room.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
And she's a teen now, and you know teens are
thieving drug users. So yeah. So outside, Amorrow and Careesi
are talking about how they clocked how quick the wife
wanted to paint Jenna as like a drugged out teen,
and that she's obviously protecting her husband, like helping set
up the story. At the precinct, the guys are telling
the gang they think the wife stood guard for him
while he did this attack, and that she's the only

(44:45):
one with access to the back rooms. It's a really
small office. Theer's like a receptionist up front, and then
it's just her and him in the back. So Benson
is now gaming out a working theory. Jaya gives Jenna
the drug in the chair, then the nitress. She's out
of it, can't process the but she's in pain. After
she does a couple shots at her friend's house that
mixes with the meds, that's when she gets all out

(45:06):
of it, and then the whole encounter with Jerome happens.
Finn gets a call done done. The DNA sweater seamen
belongs to uncle dentist. Okay, we're closing in. They bring
him in and they're like, what's up, bro, We just
found JIZ on your niece's sweater and it's yours. And
he's like, oh man, you're not gonna believe this embarrassing story,

(45:29):
but please keep it quiet. My wife and I are
so horny for each other. I boned her in the chair.
We had a little quickie before in between patients and.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, she was coming in, but I thought I would
just you know, fuck my wife, yeah quick in the office.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Then I pulled out, sprayed my jis everywhere, didn't clean
it up, and let my niece come into the office
and rub her sweater on it. And he's like, it's
nothing I really want my patience to read about.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
And they're like, oh, yes, of course.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
But the thing is, Jenna says you raped her, and
he's like what that It's impossible and horrifying, and he's like,
you know, nitrous can cause hallucinations, and Jaya said she
helped herself to some klnazepan. So now like suddenly these
too are united front about the klnazepan and she had
alcohol in her system and all this could lead her
to accuse her uncle of rape. Then he threatens them

(46:16):
with a lawsuit if they keep this up, and he
storms out, and Rollins is like it's true. Well, Rollins
is like he's kind of right, Like this isn't the
most air tight case with all the drugs and booze involved.
But they also realized that if this dude raped his
own niece with his wife right there.

Speaker 4 (46:34):
This was not his first offense.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Okay, yeah, So she tells them give it a full
court press. She wants uncle dentists in cuffs. This is
what Live does. So now we're all checking in. Everyone's
been looking looking, looking for more stuff to incriminate the dentist,
and Robins found an old lawsuit that was settled, but
that was not about bad dentistry. They have to see

(46:56):
if Barba can possibly get along around the confidential of
it all. In walks Jenna and her mom and they're like.
The mom's like, Jenna needs to tell you something. So
now in Live's office, Jenna is fully recanting. She's like,
I shouldn't have said that uncle Neil did this. She's
not saying he didn't do this, She's saying, I shouldn't

(47:16):
have said that uncle Neil did this. Her therapist said
that she was confused and that trauma and drugs and
alcohol can mess with short term memory. And now Jenna's
mom is saying that Jenna was suggestible at the time
and that when she left Jenna alone with the cops,
they planted the idea in her head.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
So the mom goes, you're.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Framing my brother and you're using my daughter to do it,
and Barba's like, oh did he tell you that? Who
referred you to this therapist? And the mom is doubling down.
She's like, don't try to twist it. And it's like, no,
did your brother refer to you to the therapist or what?
And like it is hard to watch how.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
She is so like, well, it reminds me of the
Natasha Leone episode too.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
Yes, fuck these uncles yo.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Yeah, absolutely never trusts an uncle except my brothers are good.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
It is true. I do like uncle, I do like.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
And I love my own uncles. I don't have a
single creepy uncle like I my uncle. Like, I had
an uncle who suffered from schizophrenia and he told me
the craziest stories and he would tell me perverted jokes
all the time, and I never felt uncomfortable around him.
He was great.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
Well, I have an uncle put a knife to my
throat as a joke. So I have a fucking creepy
pun I guess yeah, yikes own the salami factory?

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Wait what about the salami factory?

Speaker 4 (48:36):
He owned it?

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Oh, we owned a Hey, before I ate meet I
would have really liked to have met him, because I
do love salami. No, I just kidding the knife cancels
that out. Okay, so they're like, how about the sweater semen?
And how was it found inside your sweat? Because they
were like what about the sweater semen? And the mom
goes he explained how that got there, and they're like
inside her sweater, which is the first time they're talking

(48:59):
about that.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
This was the semen was in it. It wasn't like
on a sleeve. It was like.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Sloppy, are you with your come when you're fucking raping
your knees? Like I lean up your giz like that's
so confident, I know, I know so gross. And the
mom was just like plugging her ears. She's like a
la la la, and Jenna's like, I'm not accusing my uncle.
He would never do that to me.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Later, Barba's like, well there goes the whole case and
lives like you need to chill. The mother is obviously
pressuring Jenna there are no other victims yet, why don't
we subpoena his patient list? And Careese points out that
that plays right into his claim that the NYPD is
on a witch hunt to get him. Finn has the
idea to call the press like live you still friends
with that reporter Jimmy Mack and Live goes I am

(49:43):
and I do owe him a drink. And remember that
Jimmy Mack is the reporter played by Alec Baldwin, and
he's only in one other episode. He's referred to in
this episode, but he only appears in what Don't We
Hate Him?

Speaker 2 (49:54):
When we meet him in that episode, Jimmy Mack, Yeah,
like is obnoxious. Yes, he's up to no good. I
feel like he fucks with the evid or the story
or like.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
He fucks with the story. But then I think he
makes right in the end. I think he does something
at the end to like get Live back on his
good side. He Jimmy is in the episode called Criminal Stories,
which is a horrific episode that we've covered, and at
the end of it he does write how the guy
that did it did it and then try to pin
it on his best friend. So he makes up it,

(50:27):
makes it up to Benson by you know, outing this
rich guy in the press and everything. Afterwards, and they
have a toast and he says he's probably going to retire,
but I guess he doesn't because he's back still working
for the Ledger in this episode. So Barba's like, do
not leak this to the press, and they're like, well,
if there are more victims, they think they're all alone,

(50:47):
and when they find out that there are more of them,
they're gonna come running. And Barba's like, I'm not hearing this.
And so now top of act four and the word
is out. Baby uncle duntist rapist is giving a press
conference defending himself. His wife is by his side. Carisi goes,
the wife looks drugged herself. I think that would have
been a good touch to have Jaya feel a little
bit more drugged out in the other in the earlier part,

(51:09):
but maybe it would have been too obvious, and Carisi goes,
he probably does her high too. Textbooks somnophiliac sleeping beauty syndrome,
which is disgusting, but a lot of men have this,
Like a lot of men have no problem just having
sex with a woman that is completely unresponsive and it's
very disturbing. Amaro goes, what's the point of that, and

(51:30):
Finn goes, they don't talk back, and.

Speaker 4 (51:32):
I'm like, I don't know, Finn, I don't love that
for you.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
In season sixteen, that definitely seems like a season two
comment of Finn's coming back in, but I guess he's
explaining why some of these more misogynistic man would do
something like that. But the dentist's lawyer is a defense attorney,
Sophia Crane, who she's pictured here in the press conference.

(51:57):
She's also defended Betty Gilpin, who was famously a teacher
who had sex with a student, and she goes on
to defend Gregory Yeats in the day Dream Believer episode Yeah,
and she's squawking about how this says all an NYPD
tactic to distract from the whole Jerown Jones thing, and
liv comes in holding a copy of the New York

(52:18):
Ledger with demon dentist rapes niece on the cover, and
she's like, well, Jimmy Mack promised to leave the vic's
name out of it. But whatever the move worked, the
phones have been ringing. They've got five people calling so
far claiming to have been victims of the of Neil,
and Benson wants to wipe the smile off this son
of a bitch's face. So now all these women are

(52:40):
in the precinct, they're all telling their stories, were cutting
towards like among all of them how the dentists assaulted them,
and a lot of them knew him personally. A lot
of them he was friends with their parents or he
was a family friend of some kind. So eleven victims
total have come forward from the past twenty years, and
you know, if eleven have come forward that there's probably
more like fun and fifty. Benson doesn't know if this

(53:03):
is enough. These are all tough cases, tough to prove,
especially if Jenna and Marcy refused to testify and lives like,
let's go talk to Luke the dad. So the dad,
Luke is at Rikers and he's back on the phone
through the glass.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
He gets two of these.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
He gets two scenes with the phone glass Lucky and
he's talking to Finn and Creasy now and he's like, Neil,
no way, he's paying for my lawyer. He's stood by me.
And Finn's like, stood by you or set you up?
He made you like they remind him. They're like, he's
the one who riled you up about Jerome. He made
sure that Jenna never talked to us alone and that

(53:40):
the parents were with her so that she couldn't really
like say anything that would make her feel uncomfortable. Sent
her to his therapist to convince her that she'd invented
the whole thing. Like he's done a lot of shady
shit to put you in this position. They tell him,
come on, man, like she remembers details. You know, she's
a good girl who tells the truth. Plus sweater seamen
inside this. That's when the dad's face is like fuck

(54:03):
and he starts freaking out. He's like, I gotta go,
I gotta go. You gotta get me out of here.
I have to take care of this, which is more
of this like macho bullshit of like, yeah, you're actually incarcerated.
You can't take care of anything. Now talk to your wife.
They said, could you do that for Jenna. So now
the mom Marcy is talking to the cops and telling
them that Luke is on suicide watch. At Rikers, she

(54:24):
tells them you and now you can kind of tell
she's moved over to their side because she's like, three
friends have called me since that story broke to say
that he molested their daughters. Two of them he groped,
the third he may have raped, and I referred all
of them. So now she's finally like, oh my god,
getting the picture that her brother is a psychotic rapist.
She's like, I don't want to put Jenna through testifying

(54:46):
and lives like, okay, so your husband does hard time,
Jerome is dead, and your brother who's a rapist just
gets to walk. And Barba is like, I mean, I
can see about a plea for Luke, but you gotta
get Jenna to testify. And she's like the sister goes,
he too smart, you can't catch him, and they're like,
your daughter can. And now it's one of my favorite
things on SBU A diner sting. I love when they're

(55:08):
at a diner. Somehow this dumbass rapist has agreed to
meet with his niece and accuser at a brightly lit
diner in the middle of the day.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
I do want to say I recently met someone. I'm
not going to give any details, but they did a
They did one of these secret phone things to get
their abuser, who's surveying.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
He was now serving twenty eight years.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
But yeah, they like got together with a detective who
believed her, and they put this big thing together and
she kept him on the phone and got an apology
out of him without any denial, which means you admit it.
Holy shit, yeah, holy shit, Yeah, that's fucking nuts. Well

(55:51):
I'm glad it were I look, it's only legal to conversations.
But you in my head, I'm like, oh, this is
a movies thing. This is what they do in the movies.
But I just recently met someone that had unfortunately a
really uh fucked fucked up stuff happened in heart.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
But she she's.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
The one that put her abuse, her away with an undercover.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
She got to be I'm glad she got to be
instrumental and putting his ass away for a long time.
So the diners thing is happening. The whole gang is
watching from a van. Finn is at the counter, you know, relaxing,
eating a piece of pie. Maybe. Jenna tries to get
her uncle to admit it. He won't, and then she's like, well,

(56:34):
I heard you paid out some of your other victims,
and he vaguely is like, I'll take care of you
and your mom, but like this isn't enough, like this
isn't enough, like what he's saying, he's being vague about
his responsibility, and he's about to leave. So Jenna pulls
out the big one. She's like, I'm late. I think
I'm pregnant and he's like, you're not pregnant. She's like, no,
I'm late. I'm think I'm bring it.

Speaker 4 (56:53):
She's yelling.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
So he like shoves her back down on the table
and he's like, I couldn't have gotten you pregnant. I
had of aseectomy. She's like, so you did it. You
raped me. And he's like it's not a big deal.
You're not so special, Jenna, and she goes, I was
a virgin and she says it over and over and
he like does not care, and he starts to walk out,
and then Finn grabs his shoulder, flashes his badge and says,

(57:15):
I never met a bad man that wasn't afraid of
a baby. Works every time and put it on a
fucking T shirt that is so good. Same again, I
never met a bad man that wasn't afraid of a baby.
Like the like the things that these men will do
just to like get a baby out of their life,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Yeah, but that was like kind of a thing on
TikTok warts Like if you want, like if a man's
not leaving you alone and you want him to say
that you need money, yeah, say you want to be
a housewife.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah, yeah, I would love to just and I have
a really bad shopping problem. So Rollin's and Creasy come in.
They tell Jenna she did great. So now back at
the precinct, Jenna tells goes to see her mom and
she's like, he admitted it, he did it.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
They hug.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
The mom says she's so sorry. Jenna says she's sorry.
I'm at least glad that these two are on the
same page now and have each other. Then of course
they're bringing in Neil at the exact same time, and
he's a cocky psychopath.

Speaker 5 (58:15):
You know.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
He's like, you guys have nothing. I was calming down
a paranoid girl, and they're like cool, and what about
the other seventeen victims that have come forward. When Jenna's
mom sees him too, she goes nuts. She runs at him,
calling him a son of a bitch, which is an
insult against your mutual mother. But she's like, my daughter,
how could you? And he's like, Jenna has issue, she
always has, and it's like I thought she was like

(58:36):
a good girl, straight a student. Like it's one thing
in the Natasha Lee Own episode where this guy specifically
fucking targets her because she is troubled, but in this
one it's like she has like, now you're really grasping
at straws, dude. She's like, I'm your sister. How could
you do this to your own family? Live calms her down.
Cariese's fingerprinting Neil, saying I should have let her get

(58:59):
a piece of you.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
Raped her daughter.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Her husband's in jail for killing a guy that should
have been you, and Neil goes, you're hurting me.

Speaker 4 (59:06):
I'm a dentist and I need my hands.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
As if he's gonna be doing like a fucking crown
tomorrow morning. Cariese crunches his fingers k which we never
see Careese get, like, do any like the Stabler stuff
where he throws a guy against us of a wall,
or like you know a little bit of a.

Speaker 4 (59:22):
Neck show got a soft boy. He's a soft boy.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
But he crunches this dentist's fingers and he goes, what
hurts more this? Or what you did to Jenna? Ooh,
that'll teach him. Amorrow is talking to Live. Jenna's family
and Jerome's family are both destroyed. How can either of
them start over? Live asks and at the courthouse. Barbara

(59:45):
is meeting with Jerome's mother. He tells her listen, Jerome
was innocent. He explains what happens and how Luke was
not trying to murder your son. We have footage of
him administering CPR, but a jury might let him go
if we bring him to trial, if he pleads to
man's he'll do time.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
So it's like, it's so fucked up. Barba's kind of
asking like, can I give the deal? Like I think?

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
And the mom is like, so he gets a deal
and my innocent son is dead whose life matters to you?
And Barbara basically says, I'm sorry for your loss, but
it is what it is. And then that's stick wolf baby.
It's so it's really it's a really fuck episode. Yeah,
because that poor mom, she's just like she does.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Fill as well time she'll be fucking alive, but she
deserves justice, like what you know, But he's right, a
jury could side with that man.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Yeah, and that he did CPR and he called ie
one one and he never actually like he never actually
I wonder how he got him there? How did he
get him to this like room with the chair and
the wood violence, nail gun yeah, like so assault at
the very least. Anyway, I'm sure we have a lot
of crime to dive into.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
So oh, it's not going to be a good day
for anyone who wants to be in a good mood.
We'll dive into it. So two cases I'm focusing on.
So the first is kind of a vengeance father situation

(01:01:23):
and the other is doctors up to no good in
New York City.

Speaker 4 (01:01:29):
So that is the two that we'll be doing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
I know they mentioned the Central Park five kind of
lawsuit false arrest situation, but there's other episodes that we
can dive into that case. It's kind of yes, it's
so big and decades and to be honest, it involves
her stupid new president, and I didn't want to talk.

Speaker 4 (01:01:53):
Or think about him more than I have to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
And he was just such a big part of trying
to put to death falsely accused young black men. So
thank god he's in charge of the free world. So
this is the Gary Planchet case. So Gary Plichet at
the time, thirty nine years old son is kidnapped for
ten days. This dad is a heavy equipment salesman and

(01:02:18):
the kidnapper is Jeffrey Dasset, twenty five at the time
of the crime, was a karate instructor who taught Plache's
three sons. Dosset picked up Jody the Sun at the
son's eleven years old, at the Planchet home on Sunday morning,
February nineteenth, nineteen eighty four. He told June the Mom Planchet,

(01:02:41):
I mean, I can't okay, I can't take this as
seriously as they should because their names are out of control.
But he told June the Mom, like, hey, we're gonna
come back in fifteen minutes. I just want to show
the boy some carpet I've been laying. I mean, I'm eleven.
I don't want to look at carpet being laid. I
don't under stand this boy. I don't understand this being.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
A good I'm watching cartoons and I gotta go watch
carpet go down.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
No, but she had little clause to doubt him because
he was a frequent visitor. He was an ex marine
who got the boys in shape, and yeah, they love it.
They loved this Korean style karate. This guy would drive
them down to tournaments. So Jody the Boy who was
kidnapped about the Gary was like he's he's all our

(01:03:29):
best friend. And that's a quote from the Washington Post.
And I'm not going to use it on any current
cases or anything post Bezos buying, since it's like the
dawn of a new era. But I think you know
any old reporting I can use so But and he
was a classic pedophile, said Mike Barnett, who is the

(01:03:50):
sheriff deputy in this case. His definition to the Washington
Post of a classic pedophile is they seek out the
type of situation where they can be involved on a
frequent basis with kids. But they're different from rapists who
hate their victims, and that they love their victims, and
a very concise way to put it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
I like that it started small.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
First, you ask if any students want to learn to drive,
and Jodie's hand went up in the air, and he
remembers like sitting on the teacher's lap and getting touched
in a.

Speaker 4 (01:04:25):
Way he didn't like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
And now he understands his boundaries were getting tested, but
he didn't say anything at the time. But he would
let the rest of the kids go to seven to
eleven for snacks, but hold him back for extra room.
So Jeffrey faced sexual abuse, you know, wrong side of
the tracks. Classic kind of situation for a lot of
criminals that we cover on this. He was one of

(01:04:47):
seven and he was molested numerous times as a child,
though his family would only confirm one incident. But I
don't know why that's yeah, Okay, Gary moved out of
the family home when his marriage wasn't working.

Speaker 4 (01:05:01):
So this is Jody's father.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
So at this time, you know, the Karate lessons are happening.
He's grooming these kids. He has a focus on Jody.
The dad and the mom are not The marriage isn't
going well, so the dad moves out August of nineteen
eighty three, and that's when this creep starts hanging out
more and more with June, and then the wife slash

(01:05:22):
mom and Dassett do end up having an intimate relationship
with each other. So oh no, yeah, and her friends
said to the Washington Post that they understand how she
came to lean on this younger dude when her separation
became tense, because she does have all these kids and
being a MoMA's heart, sometimes you need your back blown out. Okay, So,

(01:05:44):
but she was starting to be confused by all the
time he was obsessed with Jody and not the other kids,
just Jody all the time. And Jody was obsessed with it.
Stopped doing basketball, stopped doing football, was just karate all
the time. So, but this dude was bad on all accounts.
So he had bad checks, there was fraud. He had
a ninth great education, he was a dropout, but he

(01:06:05):
was trying to fund this karate pedophile passion project of his.
So because of that, there was a lot of schemes
that he owed a lot of people money, and so
there was a warrant out for his arrest because of
some of his money situations.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
He didn't want to.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Go to jail because he couldn't see Jody, and so
he kidnapped him and he went to California. After several
hours after Dawsett left with her son, June became alarmed finally,
so she called her brother, she called the deputy sheriff,
she called a family friend, and then she drove down
to Port Arthur, where Dassett was from, to help like

(01:06:42):
kind of boots on the ground for herself to find
her son. But they had rode a bus to la
and on the way, Dawsett shaved his beard and they
checked into a motel. Four days went by, and she
finally told Gary on the racquetball court that Jodi was gone,
and the FBI was alerted. One week after Jody vanished.
The phone ring and it was a Dassett and he

(01:07:02):
warned June against telling anyone he'd called and ordered her
to bring the other children and their school transcripts and
let's all meet where the film Hill Street Blues was
filmed or the show whatever. Wherever they're filming Hill Street
Blues is where they were staying. And he's like, come
meet me here if you ever want to see Jody again.
And this is according to the Washington Post, so I

(01:07:25):
guess he was. But the school's transcripts it was funny
to me where it's like. But he was trying to
set them up in school after they all ran away,
Like I don't understand, but she begged this guy. She's like,
if we don't get Jody back, I can lose custody
of all my kids, and that carry was threatening her.
But this was a ruse that was made up by
the cops. They were like giving her lies to try
to convince him. She did everything the cops said. She

(01:07:46):
played along and they recorded a bunch of the calls.
They phone trap traced themsel the Samoa Motel in Anaheim, California,
room thirty eight blocks from Disneyland. So February twenty ninth,
the FBI agents make their Jody was actually pleading to
stay with him.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Yeah, his blonde hair was dyed black so he could
like pass him off as his son. But Jody flew
home while Dawsett was indicted for aggravated kidnapping. According to Barnett,
the sheriff deputy, that outside of the Orange County, California jail,
he confessed to having sex with Jody and all the
gory details, along with other children in the Baton rouge

(01:08:24):
aia whose parents were then advised that their kids were.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Also being assaulted.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
So then Barnett tells the dad about the rape, and
once he heard that, the dad goes to the bar
with an executive from his job and the dads He
worked at a radio station WBRZ. The exec called the
radio station you know, his company, and confirmed to the bartender. Right,
so he goes, So the execs everyone's at the bar,

(01:08:52):
He calls his job. He hangs up and then tells
the bartender. Yeah, they're they're flying dasset in at nine,
I know eight. So then the dad overhears this remark
and goes to the airport. So at the airport he
gets a cup of coffee, he has a drink at
the bar. He paces in the lobby, you know, he

(01:09:14):
keeps checking flight times. He called a friend from the payphone,
and that friend did try to warn police, but it
was too late. So Gary whispered to the phone in
the row of payphones. Here he comes, you're about to
hear a shot. The friend heard what happened next, So
the man is accused of so, you know, raping.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
His son is getting off a.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Flight in Baton Rouge from Dallas, and they bring this
criminal cuffed up home, and the dad whirled from the
bank of payphones and put a thirty eight. I don't
know what that means, but again to Dossa's head and
fired once. And that was on Friday night, March sixteenth,
nineteen eighty four.

Speaker 4 (01:09:56):
And then he slammed the phone down.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
But because there's all this press there, the shooting was
viewed by millions on the nightly news. No. Yeah, So
then the sheriff's deputy tells the Washington Post, and the
Washington Post is shady throughout it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
You'll see more.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
They call him beefy, like they have really funny adjectives
for everybody. But he became the first cop to lose
a prisoner on TV since Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 4 (01:10:23):
So wow, that's like a thing. Damn.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
He screamed, son of a bitch, Why Gary, why'd you
do it? And that's according to the Washington Post. He
leaped at the dad, disarmed his old friend who he's
known and whose son he helped track to California. The
next day, Jeff Dawst died and the dad, Planchet, was
charged with seconds agree murder. He got out the next

(01:10:48):
day on one hundred thousand dollars bond that was posted
by a friend. His lawyer, Foster Foxy Sanders, committed him
to a psych ward to portray him as a distraught
father who believed his son had been sexually abused. Foxy
believed that the shooting was a justifiable homicide and that
Pluchet's deep depressed depression was caused by the belief that

(01:11:12):
Jody was made into a sex object by the backwater
Bruce Lee.

Speaker 4 (01:11:17):
He idolized again from.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
The Washington Post like they are shady shady. March twenty eighth,
nineteen eighty four, the district Attorney Aussie Brown chose not
to seek an indictment, and it was from the same
grand jury that indicted Ducet for the kidnapping. But a
lot of the hate was because Ducet was gay, So

(01:11:40):
it's kind of fucked up. Like a woman who was
a bartender at the airport heard the shot and she's
quoted in the Washington Post going, if the man was
a homo, he got what he deserved.

Speaker 4 (01:11:51):
Oh my god, Like okay, Linda cool quote.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
When did the mom realize, like because the mom was
like in a relationship with him, Like when did she realize,
like just after the kidnapped, like when he did she realize, like,
oh fuck, this guy was just using me to get
to my son.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
I really none of the stuff I went into went
into like her kind of journey. Yeah, but she was
suspicious like eventually that he didn't care about the other
kids and it was all about Jodi, and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Because it's like it reminds me a little bit of
kidnapped and plain Sight, which he covered on this pod
and like, you know, just in that situation, the guy
starts a relationship with the mom and the dad to
try to get to the kid, But here it's just
the mom.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
August twenty ninth, nineteen eighty five, Fluche was given a
suspended prison term and sentenced to five years probation. Judge
Frank Siah of the State District Court also sentenced to
undergo treatment for substance abuse and performed three hundred hours
of community service work. But he was no threat to
the community, according to ESPN, which covered this case. So

(01:12:57):
this is the first time I think ESPN has been
a source for us.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
But yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
The New Zealand Herald did a piece on this case
in twenty twenty one, stating that even though the public
supported the dad's killing of the pedophile, his own son, Jodi,
did not agree with his actions. He did not agree
with those who think of his dad as a hero.
And he's quoted in this New Zealand paper is I
think for a lot of people who have not been
satisfied by the American justice system, my dad stands as

(01:13:26):
a symbol of justice. My dad did what everybody says
what they would do, yet only few have done it,
plus he didn't go to jail. That said, I cannot
and will not condone his behavior. I understand why he
did what he did, but it is more important for
a parent to be there to help support their child,
not put themselves in a place to be prosecuted. He said,

(01:13:46):
I mean, he said, I didn't want him dead. I
just wanted him to stop. Yeah, Jody now helps parents
help prevent situations like this, so you know, he goes,
if you tell a kid that rape or assault or
not being pure hurts a child's soul, they might not
want to tell anybody that they were molested because they
don't want their soul to die. And that's how he felt.

(01:14:08):
And his dad was extreme and always said like I'd
kill anybody that touched my kids, and because of that,
he didn't tell him because he knew that the dad
wasn't kidding. So that's just like a couple good advice
from like a kid that was molested that I don't
know if we've really heard on this podcast. And then
June the mom is quoted again an ESPN I can't

(01:14:28):
say it with a straight face, in response to her
son saying it's bad to take a life, she goes,
are you kidding? Do you know how many kids weren't molested?
Because he's no longer on this earth. So but yeah,
the guy got caught, he would have gone to jail.
So I don't know. Gary died in twenty fourteen from
a stroke, but always maintained he would have killed the

(01:14:48):
man who abused his son.

Speaker 4 (01:14:50):
Again.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
And I mean, the video and photos exist. This was life,
so if you want to watch it, you can't. Whoa crazy,
Yeah that's crazy. I mean, like I like what Jody
says there.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
It's like it is very It's like we were saying
about the character in the episode. It's very male centered,
and you're centering yourself to be like, I have to
go avenge this thing that happened to my kid. It's
like your kid probably just wants to be like comforted
by their parent and not lose their parent to jail
or you know, death or whatever. Like you could just

(01:15:23):
make them the center of this. You know, if your
kid says, Dad, go kill that guy, that's a different story.
Maybe then you feel like you've got to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
Yeah, Okay, this will be rage and do thing for everyone,
So buckle up and you might know about this for
New York.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
The Robert hadd In case.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Yeah yeah, so New York City most prolific predator in
New York history, according to Forbes, again a source I
don't think we've used before.

Speaker 4 (01:15:54):
This is really uh wild, Sobes.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
This happened at columb University. The guynecologists that work there's
accused of sexually abusing more than two hundred patients over
the course of decades. And that is an underestimated number.
It's closer to five hundred. And then because on any
given day, this motherfucker would see twenty five to forty patients.

(01:16:17):
Several said he would see uh, he would make it
seem like the exam was over and then like would
turn around and just after the nurse would leave the
room and set and would go, oh, I need to
just check one more thing.

Speaker 4 (01:16:31):
And that's when the assaults would happen.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
So a former patient said, in that moment, her thought was, oh, no,
something must be wrong. And so the fear, you know,
you have fear for your baby. It's obgyn, you have
fear for what's going on. You know, the doctor is like, wait, fuck,
one more thing. So he really took advantage of vulnerable
patients who are scared of so many things going right
or wrong. And it's a new time. Like you it's

(01:16:54):
your first time being pregnant. It's like crazier for your
first time at a gaynocologist's office. Like we don't really
talk about what's appropriate or not or what needs to happen.

Speaker 4 (01:17:04):
And you know, predators are really smart with who they pick.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
So one patient said, like her concern for her new
baby twins led her to overlook Hadden's red flags, but
he was groping her after she gave birth to the twins.
In these moments, he would insert his tongue or unglum
fingers into women. He would fondle breasts for several minutes
under the guise of an exam, but it wasn't. And
this guy is fucking sick, Like he he molested miners

(01:17:31):
whom years earlier he had delivered as babies.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):
Oh my god, so he.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
Delivered a girl and then when she was sixteen he
assaulted her.

Speaker 4 (01:17:42):
Oh my god, that's horrific. Yeah, I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
Yeah, my faces, I am.

Speaker 4 (01:17:50):
I've read about this. I just like, oh, yeah, it's
it's wild.

Speaker 2 (01:17:56):
How many unpressed it in quotes, unpressed it at a
most terrific wild caseys. We keep finding new like yeah,
because I didn't know about this. So he was a
practicing doctor from nineteen eighty seven to twenty twelve, when
that's when accusations like really started going in twenty twelve.

(01:18:16):
But like usual, like most cases, people had been making
complaints for decades. So Columbia New Columbia aided this man,
helped this man, and fucked with the investigation of this man.

Speaker 4 (01:18:30):
Fuck Columbia University. Fuck you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
So one victim i'll highlight from a pro public a
piece is Lorie Kenyak And she was thirty eight at
the time, and on June twenty ninth, twenty twelve, while
at her doctor's office, texted her boyfriend doctor hadn't just
licked my vagina. I'm shaking and freaked out. So she'd
already suffered a miscarriage. She had recently undergone a spinal

(01:18:57):
treatment and she was just very extra scared that it
would inc used the risk of birth defects. So when
she got with a doctor at such a distinguished institution,
she was feeling grateful.

Speaker 4 (01:19:08):
There were a few.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Appointments she dismissed because she was just focused.

Speaker 4 (01:19:11):
On her baby.

Speaker 2 (01:19:12):
She did hear him moan He was very forceful. One
time he was so forceful with his fingers that lifted
her from the table.

Speaker 4 (01:19:18):
She said, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
And then six weeks after giving birth to her uh,
to her daughter, on a late Friday, like I said,
June twelfth, she this is when this happened. So she
froze because he looked her vagina and texted her boyfriend
and then he rushed there and called the cops, and
the cops came over to their house. So like he
picked her up, they would go to the house. Haddn't

(01:19:42):
then called the house and so the cops were at
their apartment while they're listening to this voicemail from the doctor,
and the voicemail was like, oh, misunderstanding. The cops are
calling them off him like whatever, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and
the NYPD who's there, said fuck him, let's go get
this pig.

Speaker 4 (01:19:59):
So oh, kind of cool. We don't really expect that
from the NYPD.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
And you can listen to the full voicemail in pro
publica if you want, and the resources, as always are
in our show notes. When he was arrested, Columbia found
him a lawyer.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
He was arrested that night, but was released on a Monday,
so that was a Friday. He was released on Monday.
He received a letter from Columbia handwritten that just said, hey,
if you are with a chaperone in the room with patients,
you're all good and you can resume clinical activities. So
the document was signed by his immediate supervisor and he
succeed The president of the New York Presbyterian, which is

(01:20:39):
a hospital. The Columbia Affiliated Hospital System, where he was
an attending doctor, also cc to the email. The dean
of Columbia's medical school, where he was a member of
the faculty back on work on Tuesday.

Speaker 4 (01:20:51):
They let him practice for.

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):
Five more weeks, during which eight patients said they were
assaulted by him.

Speaker 4 (01:20:58):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
One of the patients, on his first day back, wrote
a victim impact statement pro publica that said Robert Hadden
was actually permitted to return to his medical office and
sexually assault me just four days after being arrested for
licking up patience genitals.

Speaker 4 (01:21:21):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
Columbia during this time failed to hand over evidence in
its possession. Despite subpenis. The university did not tell the
DA when more patients came forward.

Speaker 4 (01:21:34):
Finally, five weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
After this initial arrest, they suspended him because he would
not cooperate with the internal investigation. Then he took a
leave of absence in September, and at the end of
the year the university didn't renew his appointment, so he
retired and got to just live with his wife in Jersey, Okay. Meanwhile,
the Manhattan DA's opened an investigation into this creek. Lauren

(01:21:56):
Mildendorff as a prosecutor grown up in a family of
and she volunteered to take the case, but it was
eventually shelved in twenty thirteen, and Kean Yak was like, fuck,
let's just do a civil suit. I hate this guy.
He shouldn't be practicing medicine. And in April twenty thirteen,
the New York Daily News published a short item on

(01:22:17):
the lawsuit, and then in July a bigger story appeared
with a large photo of him and the headline that said,
Guyino is Sickoh. Because of this article, women started coming forward.
By June twenty fourteenth, Millendorff had gathered enough to indict.
He was charged with five felonies and formist demeanors involving

(01:22:38):
six women for almost two years she built her case.
He was convicted of multiple sexual assault charges in twenty sixteen,
but did not serve jail time. He pled guilty in
twenty sixteen to two New York State charges of criminal
sex act in the third degree and forcible touching. Not
one day in jail because Cyrus Vance Junior, the DA

(01:22:59):
at the time time, said if Columbia had fully cooperated
and might have made a difference in his office's decision
to accept a plea. But this motherfucker was part of
the problem too. It's even sicker than that. So just
like the in SVU Sexual not our department when we
watched the show, But like it's usually an issue with
the bosses and the McGraths, and like the friend Thompson's

(01:23:20):
in the SVU universe, where they only want to take
sex crimes that they could win. You know, it's about winning,
and they don't want to take cases to court they
can't win, so they didn't. They just wanted to put
this case to bed. So Hadden's attorney, this guy Kershner,
came to the DA's office February twenty sixteen, and she
had worked at this office, so she had connects. She

(01:23:42):
was close to Vance and she asked to like, she
was so close to the DA she asked him.

Speaker 4 (01:23:48):
To preside over her wedding. Oh my god. So they
had a meeting. That's when the deal was agreed to.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Millendorf was not at the meeting and was told to
tell the victims that this was a win and that
she was she's devastated. More than two hundred of his
former patient than end up settling lawsuits against Columbia University,
reaching agreements more than two hundred and thirty million dollars,
and the exact figures ranged between sources. But oh yeah,

(01:24:19):
a lot of hundreds of millions of dollars. Columbia, though
admitted no fault and placing the blame solely on the doctor,
even though their own records show that women repeatedly trying
to warn Columbia doctors and staff about had him. They
had concerns in writing, and they allowed him to continue practicing.
Their interviews in pro Pluboka wonders forgot her stethoscope, stepped back,

(01:24:40):
saw something fucked that sent in quote shock waves all
over her body. But she didn't say anything because she
didn't think her word had any weight against a doctor,
and she was right. A nurse for work there from
nineteen ninety later testified she saw hat and move his
fingers sexually around the lady of a woman in labor every.

Speaker 4 (01:24:58):
Time he checked for surve dilation.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
But on the stand, she said, historically there's always been
a hierarchy between physicians and nurses, and she felt like
she didn't have a voice.

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
Yeah, this is like what happened with doctor death, Like
if you like that, Like eventually I think a nurse
did try to bring him down, but like no one
listened to her forever. She filed so many complaints, like
this guy's fucking killing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
People, and I forgot we did a whole other one
where it was like a pedophile doctor for decades, like Massachusetts, Pennsylvania,
in one of these East coast states. Yeah, yeah, and
fuck the school, obviously, Columbia administrators, nurses, other doctors worked there.
They covered up this fucking abuse. Anthony Dpatrow, the attorney
representing the victims in the civil suit, claimed that the

(01:25:41):
university staff knew about the allegations against Haddan as early
as nineteen ninety four. A complaint was sent to the
acting chair of obstetrics and guy in acology department claimed
that he was abusing patients. They chose to conceal his
crimes and gaslight his patients, which enabled this man's behavior
and so a lot of the payouts by the school.

(01:26:04):
But this dude got no jail time and it's not
like his personal bankup.

Speaker 4 (01:26:09):
Why would they do. I don't get it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
And he was in the age that he would ever
retired anyways, he was like in his sixties, so he
was classified as the lowest level of sex offender status
after this, like Sivance deal, he decided to do, which
means he was not listed in New York States online
Sexual offender registry either. So he did agree to for

(01:26:32):
pa his medical license, but that means prosecutors dropped all
other charges and agreed not to pursuit cases related to
other alleged victims. In twenty twenty, this case got kicked
back up when Evelyn Yang, whose husband Andrew Yang was
running for president, mentioned this case in an interview and
being abused by him, and she was one of the

(01:26:52):
people that came forward for the first time around case
that went nowhere.

Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
But she was a Jane Doe who but because of her.

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):
Forty women came forward right away during this It was
really fucked up. She was a Jane Doe, and they
pushed and they tried to make her come forward. She
came forward about this case, and then all they fucked up.

Speaker 4 (01:27:12):
All these women came forward.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
Weeks after that, Manhattan District Attorney's office announced and assigned
prosecutors to open this case back up. During this trial,
there was credible evidence relating to forty victims. Prosecutors asked
for twenty five years and the defense argued.

Speaker 4 (01:27:26):
For three years. Are you kidding?

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
The case was based around four women though that he
enticed and induced the four women to travel to New
York is in the New York based office where he
sexually abused them. So because of the moving of state
lines he had he had patients come from Pennsylvania and
stuff that adds to federal charges. So his defense claimed

(01:27:50):
that he was innocent and that they just fought over
the fact that prosecution could not prove that the women
were lured across state lines for their abuse, but that
they chose to make appointments with him. But yeah, Dedra
von Durnham in quotes for to CBS News, this is
his lawyer wrote, cancel him, condemn him, do not convict

(01:28:10):
him of a crime he did not commit. And she
said this during the trial, like okay, Ddre, you're a bitch.
Her other argument was end quote, he never intended to
abuse his victims. Rather, it was a spur of the
moment that was uh tavy.

Speaker 1 (01:28:24):
So there's no intent, okay, But I think if you
do it two hundred times, there's intent there, babe.

Speaker 4 (01:28:29):
That's not spur of the moment. That's fuck. This is
so fun.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
Yeah, kannak she's who kicked this off in twenty twelve
and her and her boyfriend called the police January twenty
twenty three. She sat in the witness box and when
she first went to police, her daughter was six weeks old.
Now she's ten. She's ten at this time. That's how
long this fucking took for this. She's Bastepoliet justice. There

(01:28:56):
was a two week trial and after being found guilty,
they sent him home to be with his wife and son,
and one victim from the back stood up, very s
of you and said, oh, so he's a sexual abuser,
but we're letting him go home. So then one week
later they overturned that, and he was ordered to be detained.
US marshals approached him and arrested his ass His first

(01:29:18):
night behind bars, ever, was February first, So then finally
on July twenty fifth, twenty twenty three, he was sentenced
to twenty years in federal prison.

Speaker 4 (01:29:28):
The judge in this I know, God.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
The judge in the case, Richard Berman, said, this is
a horrific case and like no other. But I'm sorry
doing this podcast. It's like a lot of others. We
need to stop acting shocked. Stop acting shocked every time
this happens. Normal ask people commit these crimes all the time.
Stop it unprecedented. No, it's not. Stop because it makes victims.

(01:29:53):
It makes it scarier to come forward when you act
like it's not happening all the time, because it fucking is. Yeah,
the staff knew. I mean, fuck Columbia, like I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
You know, my brother went to medical school there and
my mother went to My mother did nursing se No.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
It's known as a good school. I mean that's the thing.
A lot of these patients were like thrilled to be
in such an amazing institution.

Speaker 4 (01:30:18):
Yeah, he was sixty six at the time of sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):
And the judge said that once he gets out, he
will face the lifetime of supervision after his release as well,
but hopefully he dies in prison on his last day
after being given for sentences of the twenty years, but
they're going to be served concurrently, he said, between sobs
to the judge, hold your tears, bitch, But he says,
I'm very sorry for all the pain I have caused.

Speaker 4 (01:30:42):
Fuck you. That's from pro public up.

Speaker 2 (01:30:45):
And I just want to say personally, thank God for
the bravery of the victims that came forward, and because
of them they were able to get rid of this guy.
You know, the school did not care about getting rid
of the serial sexual predator, and the institution was unable
to do so. And it's because of these fucking patients
and because of these brave people that he was able

(01:31:06):
to He's.

Speaker 1 (01:31:07):
I mean, they acted the same way as the Catholic
Church does or anybody that just like moves somebody around
or denies.

Speaker 4 (01:31:13):
It or make it strike a religion. These are conked
out people that are like the Lord, what is this.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
I know, with an institution of higher education, you're like,
what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
Like that's horrific, because if your whole thing is it's
not on us. We're not taking responsibility. It's all him.
Then why cover up for him? If he has nothing
to do with institution, You're like, yeah, it's bogus. He
still denies all allegations and charges beyond the two that
he pled guilty for, and even with the school's apologies,

(01:31:43):
Evel and Yang had had this to say some Forbes,
there's no ownership of the university's past and ongoing failures.
The apology comes from a place of self preservation and
does not acknowledge that Colombia enabled and protected Hadden's abuse.
Well actually, at one point embarks on a campaign to
foreseeing I mentioned this earlier to reveal her identity when

(01:32:05):
she first came forward. Pro Publica says that they were
deeply involved in containing, deflecting, and distancing itself from the
scandal at every step. Pro Publica also is like, there
isn't even anything special about this guy that would make
Columbia want to protect him. It's very confusing. He was
not a prompt, he was not prominent with a bunch
of elite clients. That wasn't him. He wasn't attracting millions

(01:32:28):
in research dollars or in demands on the academic late
lecture circuit. He was just one of dozens of doctors,
outwardly unremarkable. And that's what we see, and that's what
that's what this past selection represents so much, and that's
why it's so heartbreaking to be a woman, like, hundreds
of women were fucking molested by this guy, unremarkable, one

(01:32:52):
of a dozen doctors. No one gives a shit, No
one asked him to speak, he didn't do research, he
wasn't special. Celebrities didn't go to it, nothing, But they
were willing to protect this fucking creep fell In rapist monster,
let him go home to his wife after being found guilty,
not serve jail time. So at the expense of hundreds

(01:33:13):
of women, and that is what the selection is to,
at the expense of minority communities like immigrants that are here,
women like all like upstanding fucking citizens no matter what
we do, a fucking fellon rapist as president.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):
Yeah, and and this guy, this guy hadn't seems like
he probably went into this profession on purpose.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
I would never go to a man. I would never
go to a man.

Speaker 4 (01:33:39):
I never.

Speaker 1 (01:33:43):
Gone to a man. I would never I've never gone
to a man fucking freak in my life. I just
wouldn't feel comfortable with it. But you know, I don't know.
I'm sure people are gonna write this and go, my
dad's are going to collegists and he's.

Speaker 4 (01:34:00):
I'm sure he's a fucking creep.

Speaker 2 (01:34:02):
All right, I'm almost done, so yeah, But it's just
it's all the same. It's just like we protect gross
ass men all the time and push them up and
let them do whatever, and women are not listened to,
trusted like I can't imagine. And in sick rapist statistics
that the number of survivors in this case is about

(01:34:25):
equal to those of Larry Nasser, the you know, the
fucking gymnast doctor at Michigan State University, so the numbers
are very similar. Hadn't all together had an abuse at
least two hundred and forty five and then additional three
hundred and one victims filed for the final lawsuit and
the pro problem and the pro public article links in
the show notes had dozens of people who I mean,

(01:34:47):
I would have been talking for another fuck an hour
and a half, like dozens of people who called. There
is so much personal stuff in this piece, and they
really dug deep and interviewed so many victims. Yeah, dozens
of people who called made complaints, told receptionists, told referring doctors,
social workers at the hospital were told about this man.

Speaker 4 (01:35:09):
So many people came forward.

Speaker 2 (01:35:11):
So when we tell victims, come forward, come forward, it's
not about them coming forward. It's about training and getting
into people's heads what to do when someone comes forward.
And we're like pushing these victims to do these brave,
huge things and come forward.

Speaker 4 (01:35:25):
And then everyone failed them.

Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
Everyone and colleges and universities all the time are like
fucking trying to hide their own bottom line. You know
what's crazy too, is like that's so interesting what you're
saying about him. This guy was like not special. It's
like in the episode that's almost so unbelievable that they
try to make him more special in the episode. Like
in the episode, he's a dentist, and he's not only

(01:35:50):
a dentist, but he's builds all these churches or builds
builds dental practices in third world countries, and he's big
on the charity circuit and he works with the NYPD.
Like they had to make him special in the episode
because it's more believable why there would be cover up
for him, you know, like, why are you covering up
for this mediocre fucking dude? I guess Columbia. Do you
think that they figure, well, if he's if it's not true,

(01:36:14):
and they if it's if he's innocent, we're not going
to pay out all this money or whatever. And even
if he did do it, but they can't prove it,
then we don't have to pay out the money. Like,
are they like literally trying to hide the money, because
if they had just given the cops what they wanted,
that these people probably still would have sued Columbia. So
I'm just wondering what Columbia is, like, what are they
why would they impede this investigation?

Speaker 2 (01:36:36):
I mean, but how many episodes the best view have
we seen where it's like very confusing where they would
rather just like protect the frat or protect whatever dude. Yeah,
And I think it's just what is it like the
unconscious bias of it all too where we're like trained
to be like are you sure she wasn't trying? I
don't know, did he realize I don't there was a

(01:36:58):
nurse there. He wouldn't have fingered her, I don't know,
I have no idea. No, but like a lot of
the women in this piece that I was reading, like
told the receptionist or like one woman used to work there, laughs,
came back to him, went to and then all the
receptionists were like, yeah, we know he's a creep They
all knew, Like they talked openly about what a creepy
was at the office. The receptionist knowingly told women that

(01:37:19):
complained like, oh yeah, sorry about that, don't come back
to him. Other people like nurses would tell women like,
don't come back Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
Yeah, I just I don't know. I'm lady all the
way when it comes to that. But we've got a
great interview coming up too. Hopefully you're so defeated down,
We'll be right back. Okay today's guest, Wow, what again?

(01:37:54):
I was so excited to talk to him. He is
a prolific character actor who was most recently on the
Netflix show Wednesday Two Wednesday Actors in a Row. On
the pod, he played Sheriff Donovan Galpin. He's also on
mostly shows I've watched, Bloodline, Sons of Anarchy as well
as Southland. You know him today as the manipulated father

(01:38:15):
Luke Davis. Please enjoy our conversation with the very talented
Jamie McShane.

Speaker 4 (01:38:21):
Well, you won't believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
We the interview we did before you was Ricky Lindholme, No, kiddy,
I know you can't believe it.

Speaker 6 (01:38:29):
Was that today.

Speaker 1 (01:38:30):
Yeah, just an hour or so ago. Yeah, and she
loves you. We were She was saying you're the best,
and I was like, oh.

Speaker 6 (01:38:37):
My god, she's better.

Speaker 1 (01:38:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:38:41):
Yeah, we heard about Romania.

Speaker 6 (01:38:43):
Oh good lord. Yeah, it was.

Speaker 5 (01:38:47):
It was neat because it was pretty much Ricky and
Hunter and I kind of had each other's backs. And
then and Tommy Tomy l Jenkins when he was there.

Speaker 6 (01:38:57):
But it was yeah, Ricky and I got very close
Hunter as well.

Speaker 4 (01:39:01):
I mean, you've been working for so long, so many
cool things.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
It was the Romania, the wildest location or have you
shot in more?

Speaker 5 (01:39:09):
Yeah, Romania was pretty well, it's the longest I've ever
been anywhere, and it's the farthest away pretty much when
you look at the globe, you know, as far from
Los Angeles as you can get.

Speaker 6 (01:39:21):
I did shoot.

Speaker 5 (01:39:21):
I did a little independent film in twenty seventeen called
Busman's Holiday, and we literally had a crew of like,
there were just four of us total, me included, so
there was a crew of two guys plus the my
friend who wrote, directed, produced, did every department essentially hair
and makeup, wardrobe.

Speaker 6 (01:39:41):
But we went.

Speaker 5 (01:39:42):
Around the world in the month of May, and we
were in each place for like a week, couple of days,
I guess a couple of days.

Speaker 6 (01:39:51):
But it was.

Speaker 5 (01:39:51):
Ireland, Norway, Italy, Mumbai, India, Sansabar, Africa, and then Sydney,
Australia and a little north.

Speaker 6 (01:39:59):
So Zanzibar was prett Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:40:01):
Well you did that all in a month.

Speaker 6 (01:40:03):
Yeah, all in the month of May in twenty seventeen. Wow,
it was pretty wild.

Speaker 1 (01:40:09):
Yeah, that is it kind of sounds like an SVU.
The log line, a disillusioned cop is forced out of
retirement to find a troubled teenage girl who vanished on
a trip across the world.

Speaker 6 (01:40:20):
Sounds maybe it was this for you and I got
very confused.

Speaker 1 (01:40:22):
Could be an SVU. Yeah, Sbu has never gone to Zanzibar,
but they.

Speaker 4 (01:40:28):
Have gone to Romania. They have isn't that where he goes?
They go to frog Prog.

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
Yes, they go to frog Zeck Republic.

Speaker 6 (01:40:38):
Yeah, pretty pretty close.

Speaker 2 (01:40:39):
Yeah, I mean this episode was hard to watch. We've
we've wanted to talk to you, we wanted to do
this episode, but we were kind of avoiding it.

Speaker 4 (01:40:48):
It's pretty heartbreaking.

Speaker 6 (01:40:49):
Yeah, decaying reality was tough.

Speaker 2 (01:40:51):
Yeah, with the boy and then him die, it really
is a tough episode.

Speaker 6 (01:40:58):
Yeah. The writing on this.

Speaker 5 (01:41:01):
Is really good, Like they bring up such topical points
and really kind of somehow fleshed them out within the
confines of their time period, and it's just been very interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:41:14):
Yeah, no, it was.

Speaker 1 (01:41:16):
I thought it was like also very sub like you
portrayed it like in a great way, but it was
very subtle about how like this man felt like he
had to do like be a vigilante and like defend
his daughter and go after the truth, the truth and
everything when and didn't know the facts.

Speaker 4 (01:41:36):
And you know, it's like it's.

Speaker 1 (01:41:39):
Uh, you could you sympathize a lot with this character
because you made him really like emotionally accessible. I feel like,
but you're kind of like, dude, if you had just
let the cops do their job for like one more day,
we wouldn't have we would have, you know, you.

Speaker 5 (01:41:52):
I know, I am I am a I am a
parent and that sort of I don't know, being just
that sort of anger and that like someone hurt my kids,
someone did something like you freaking kidd me, And you
guys aren't doing anything about it right this second?

Speaker 6 (01:42:10):
Are you? And we know who it is?

Speaker 4 (01:42:12):
Yeah, what do you mean?

Speaker 6 (01:42:13):
No one's doing anything. It's kind of that response.

Speaker 2 (01:42:16):
And your character is being manipulated by this uncle too,
Like who knows if it was a normal person talked
you down for a day. You know he wanted just
like willing to ruin your fucking life too, bastard.

Speaker 1 (01:42:30):
So like, what I think was so crazy is like
you you've only you've done two episodes of s you
you're such you're so prolific. I was expecting when I
went to your IMDb to see you've done criminal intent,
you've done regular law in order to but like, you
haven't done those. You're just an SVU guy. When uh,
when it when it uh came to you, were you
like I only want us fine?

Speaker 2 (01:42:53):
Yeah, no, you were like geez taking long wolf.

Speaker 6 (01:42:58):
No no, no, no.

Speaker 5 (01:42:59):
Actually, early one of my first jobs after I got
my SAG card in like nineteen ninety was I did
extra work on the original Law and Order whoa And
I did stand in WHEK. I did extra work a
couple episodes stand in work, like in that courthouse that
was like twenty five years before I booked this first SVU,

(01:43:20):
like nineteen ninety.

Speaker 6 (01:43:22):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:43:23):
So when they came to me the first one was
like in twenty fifteen, I think, well that was this
one to King More. Yeah, I was just you know,
it was just wonderful. They came up to me with
just an offer and hey, we want you to do this,
and we really like your stuff. And you know, last
time I was there, I was doing extra work in
nineteen ninety So it was thrilling for me.

Speaker 4 (01:43:44):
What a full circle moment? Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:43:46):
Yeah, and especially this episode there was there was a
scene we'll talk about later that had a whole thing
about full circle about my life and career that was
kind of blew me away.

Speaker 4 (01:43:59):
You could just tell us, tell us, oh.

Speaker 5 (01:44:02):
So the scene where I where I hurt Jerome, you
know with the nail gun, you know, in that apartment
that's being fixed up.

Speaker 6 (01:44:12):
So they originally so you had a location for that.

Speaker 5 (01:44:16):
We were going to shoot in some apartment that there
was work being done on and they lost the location
last minute. So we wound up shooting at the stages,
and we shot those stages are connected to hockey rinks,
like there's you know, I forget what. There's like a
whole sports complaints there. Just thank you, Chelsea Piers. So

(01:44:37):
we were on the way back of the stages. And
I grew up playing hockey like I played hockey as
a kid, and I thought I was going to play
hockey in you.

Speaker 6 (01:44:46):
Know, college and pro and blah blah blah.

Speaker 5 (01:44:49):
And then I had a freak head injury in school
had nothing to do with hockey, and I slipped on
sawdust and smashed my head and I could never play
hockey again.

Speaker 6 (01:44:59):
So what was the whole circle for me?

Speaker 4 (01:45:01):
Was here?

Speaker 5 (01:45:01):
I was twenty five years after I did extra work
on Law and Order, and I'm flown to New York
and they're putting me up and I have this great
role and I'm you know, doing well as an actor,
and I'm sitting there in this cold room with sawdust

(01:45:22):
all on the floor and behind the wall.

Speaker 6 (01:45:26):
If you know what.

Speaker 5 (01:45:27):
It is, it's hockey practice. I can hear the skates,
I can hear the sticks, I can hear everything going
on if you really listen and it was like my
whole childhood of having played hockey and the smells and
the feel of the cold, and that whole thing ended
because it sawdust, which is all at my feet at

(01:45:48):
this point. And there I am having a great part
on a show, on something I did twenty five years
ago as an extra when I was starting my career.
It really blew me away and it actually helped a
lot with the emotions of the scene.

Speaker 1 (01:46:05):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:46:07):
Yeah, it's really I don't know if it was cathartic
as much as just wow, like this is all piling
in at once.

Speaker 4 (01:46:15):
And everything's connected.

Speaker 2 (01:46:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:46:17):
Wowah interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:46:19):
Wait, so Kara is both a Sons of Anarchy and
Bosh fanatic.

Speaker 4 (01:46:25):
So oh, we would love to hear some scam.

Speaker 1 (01:46:27):
Bloodline and Bloodline. I'll be honest, like, I'm really into
like three of majors of your major projects.

Speaker 6 (01:46:34):
I loved all of them.

Speaker 5 (01:46:35):
I mean, Bloodline was I've been twenty five years acting
and struggling and da da Da Da da da, and
then I got my first series regular after twenty five
years and it was Bloodline. Yeah, and it was it
was like going from the miners to the All Star team,
and you know, it was incredible and everyone was so nice,

(01:46:55):
the writing was so good.

Speaker 6 (01:46:57):
It was just need to be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:46:59):
It was the best. It was such a good show.
And you play Chloe Savigni's who's at SVU alum as well,
you play her brother, right, and you guys are you
guys are kind of like bad people, right, You're like, well.

Speaker 6 (01:47:14):
If you watch the whole series, we're the only decent people.

Speaker 1 (01:47:16):
Yeah in the end.

Speaker 6 (01:47:18):
Yeah, but yeah, No, I loved working Chloe. We had
some great stuff together. We really it was just wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:47:24):
She's great, Yeah, but this is like, this is great.
We talked to Amy Landucker also on this podcast. I
don't know if you've ever worked with her before, but
she's somebody who also like like got she got a
regular series regular role in her early forties.

Speaker 5 (01:47:39):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:47:40):
It was like something like the just the longevity, thet
you just have to stay in it and keep hustling
for so long that you were an extra in ninety
in nineteen ninety and that things weren't really starting to
pop off for like ten or fifteen years is like yeah, yeah, yeah,
And even like looking at your IMDb, it's like getting

(01:48:00):
in the two thousands it's like customer, hotel manager, characters
without names, and then suddenly it's like, okay, now we
got the repeating the big roles and stuff, and yeah,
you've just been in like so many things that that
I uh, that I love and thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:48:16):
You're one of those.

Speaker 1 (01:48:16):
You're I mean, people just come up to you all
the time and say where do I know you from?
Because like you have that like is in everything, and
thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:48:26):
It happens sometimes like it happened yesterday. I forgot where
I was, and it's happened. Sometimes they know me from
a specific but most of the time it's well, why
don't I know you?

Speaker 4 (01:48:37):
Like that?

Speaker 1 (01:48:38):
Yeah, yeah, what what's the most thing?

Speaker 4 (01:48:41):
What's the thing you get the most?

Speaker 5 (01:48:43):
It's suns for that was when I first really started
getting recognized, was for suns, and then that said, it's longevity.

Speaker 6 (01:48:52):
I still get recognized from that Southland.

Speaker 5 (01:48:55):
By cops because cops loved Southland, but they a lot
of them also those sins of anarchy and a lot
of a lot for Bloodline especially.

Speaker 6 (01:49:05):
It seems like Bloodline.

Speaker 5 (01:49:06):
Got revisited this year, like it popped up again because
I was getting recognized a lot this year for Bloodline
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):
I think that's yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:49:18):
And Lincoln Lawyer, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
That's kind of the cool thing about streaming. I feel like,
even though streaming is changing the industry so much, and
sometimes maybe not in good ways, but the good thing
is like old projects like resurface and people are like
refinding old things so much, where I don't know how
you ever used to find a TV show that wasn't
on the air anymore, you know, you couldn't really go
like rent it, you know, And now it's like people

(01:49:42):
are just like sixteen year olds rediscovering friends now, you know,
and all these shows that pop back off again. So
I'm glad people are getting back into Bloodline. But I
was there for the original. I was there as it
was there, thank you. But so, how was when you
were on this back SVU episode? How Haley lou Richardson

(01:50:03):
has really your daughter has really had an assent with
her White Lotus, uh, you know, appearance.

Speaker 6 (01:50:09):
So I watched all of White Lotus.

Speaker 5 (01:50:12):
Heather and I were watching it, and I'm like, God,
this girl is so good because she's familiar, and you know,
she's such a cute She's such a cute kid and
all that too.

Speaker 6 (01:50:20):
And I'm like, gods, I must have seen her. And
then it wasn't until you guys.

Speaker 5 (01:50:26):
Called me for this and we were rewatching this stuff
and she's like, babe, that's the girl from White Loads by.

Speaker 6 (01:50:36):
Your daughter.

Speaker 5 (01:50:37):
And she was so good because she was so young
then when we did ask for you don't know if
she was like sixteen or whatever. She's still so young,
but she was so spot on good and she could
turn it on and off like that, you know, and
she was such a sweet kid.

Speaker 2 (01:50:53):
How was it filming the prison talking through a phone
and a glass That seems kind of like a bucket
list fun moment.

Speaker 5 (01:51:02):
I you know, it was. But I had a scene,
one of my favorite scenes in Bloodline where I was
talking to Chloe like that and it we the reference
was Woody the woodpecker, and it was such a bea.
It was so well written, it was so sweet. So
I had had that before. I probably had it before,

(01:51:23):
and a couple other things, but so it.

Speaker 6 (01:51:25):
Was really neat.

Speaker 5 (01:51:26):
And you know, Peter and Iced Tea were great to
work with. They were wonderful. Peter's so sweet, so nice,
so is Iced team. But Peter's a little more effusive,
you know, you gotta kind of pull it or I
did anyway, But both times I've been on the show,
everyone in that show has been just you know. I
was thinking about it earlier when when you're on a

(01:51:47):
show where there's a regular cast and they kind of
they're on their own thing, and most times everyone's very
nice to the guest stars and all that, But on SVU,
they were it was almost like they were more inclusive
of you as a guest star then some other shows
have been over the years. And I don't think it's

(01:52:09):
just because I've gotten a little more recognizable. I think
it's just who they are, you know, they just kind
of include you.

Speaker 6 (01:52:15):
Yeah, And when I.

Speaker 5 (01:52:16):
Went from one episode and did the other one a
couple of years later, it was just like it was like,
you know, I hadn't seen them in.

Speaker 6 (01:52:23):
A little bit, and they're like, hey, Jamie, what's going on?
What do you like?

Speaker 5 (01:52:26):
House a family? You know, And it was really is
very sweet. It was very kind of tender and like
they included you.

Speaker 2 (01:52:34):
Well, it's good to hear, considering the subject matter so
tough for so many people coming on that show. It
would suck if they were, you know, get in the
corner in a box or in quarter or something.

Speaker 1 (01:52:51):
But yeah, and then yeah, then they had you back
like five four or five seasons later to do the
burden of our choices.

Speaker 6 (01:52:58):
And then you're playing a pre Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:53:02):
Yeah, have you ever played a priest before?

Speaker 6 (01:53:05):
I was more of a minister in that one. I
did play a priest. You're a minister, which was funny.

Speaker 5 (01:53:12):
I played a priest, a very Catholic priest in the
first season of Nip Tuck.

Speaker 4 (01:53:17):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:53:18):
I also watched Nip Tuck.

Speaker 6 (01:53:20):
I was yeah, I was not a good priest.

Speaker 4 (01:53:23):
Oh, I bet.

Speaker 6 (01:53:25):
And it was so funny because my mother. It was
a big It was a big break for me.

Speaker 5 (01:53:29):
I beat out like some other actors who had big,
big agents at the time, and.

Speaker 6 (01:53:34):
I got this role.

Speaker 5 (01:53:35):
And I called my mom and I'm like, you know, hey,
I got this big role.

Speaker 6 (01:53:39):
She's like, do you get killed? I go no.

Speaker 5 (01:53:41):
She goes, do you kill anyone? I go no, she goes, oh,
thank god. I go actually, I play a priest. She goes,
oh my god, that's wonderful.

Speaker 6 (01:53:48):
Oh. I was the worst type of priest there could be.
So when they watched it, it wasn't so wonderful.

Speaker 2 (01:53:55):
Oh my god got this priest was twisted?

Speaker 4 (01:53:59):
Yeah, missed her.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
I can't keep it. The minister in in for you,
the burden of our choices.

Speaker 6 (01:54:07):
I don't think he was twisted at all.

Speaker 5 (01:54:08):
I'm glad you think so, but I think he was
just he was straight up in what he believed, which
is twisted. But yes, he was. He was straight up.
This is what I believe, this is what I do. Yeah,
I can see how that's twisted. Yeah, But for him
as a character, he wasn't twisted. It wasn't like, yeah,

(01:54:29):
I see, when did we.

Speaker 2 (01:54:31):
Talk who's the actor in Charisma that was like my favorite.
He plays this cult leader who impregnates his children and
then he ends up killing all these kids in this
incest cult.

Speaker 4 (01:54:42):
But when we talked to him.

Speaker 2 (01:54:43):
He goes, yeah, I didn't realize I was a bad
guy until I watched it for this podcast, because he
was so He's like, you know, he just believed that
this was his religion.

Speaker 4 (01:54:52):
And I'm like, that's so wild. True, Jeffrey Cobert, I.

Speaker 6 (01:54:55):
Think, yeah, oh I know he is. Yeah, I know
jeff Colbert. Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen him all the time.

Speaker 5 (01:55:03):
No, no, No, it's funny because he's also a not zen,
but he's kind of a.

Speaker 6 (01:55:10):
I'm not a guru, but yes, yeah, you know what
I mean, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:55:14):
Yeah, he does like meditating, he does m he's like
very genetication yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:55:18):
Yeah, and he teaches people that sort of stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:55:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:55:22):
So he's kind of like a perfect like but one
of the nicest people we've ever talked to, like, and
he's absolutely freaky. And he's in a movie also from
when I was younger that traumatized me. He's so scary
in it called like the movie The First Power I
think is what it's called, and like he's it's like
I just watched it too young and was like, that
guy is so scary. And then we talked to him
and one of the nicest people in the world. You know,

(01:55:44):
you just hone what you know, probably his belief in
meditation was his belief that he should have a child
bride in spu you know, he just gotta you just
gotta is that Meisner when you I don't know what
what kind of what acting school that is, but are
you a theater guy or always.

Speaker 5 (01:56:02):
Tea No, no, no, I did a lot of like that's
how I learned to to act.

Speaker 6 (01:56:06):
Was I did a lot of theater, but I mean
like so far off Broadway. It was in Jersey. I mean,
you know I did.

Speaker 5 (01:56:15):
I did dinner theater at a mall in New Jersey
one time for a while.

Speaker 6 (01:56:19):
Yeah, serving food and everything. It was fun. But I did.

Speaker 5 (01:56:23):
I did a lot of plays, like back to back
to back for the first four or five years.

Speaker 6 (01:56:28):
And some were you know, one was a shick.

Speaker 1 (01:56:30):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:56:31):
I played Patricio and Timmy of the Shrew at a
college outdoor theater in Jersey. And you know, I did
a bunch of one acts in New York and nothing real.
I mean I did plays that you would know of,
but not in venues that you'd know.

Speaker 6 (01:56:45):
Other than I was. I was a swing in Tony
and Tina's wedding, like a siller.

Speaker 1 (01:56:50):
When you just said the dinner theater thing, I was like, well,
I did go to Tony and Tina's wedding.

Speaker 4 (01:56:54):
I mean that was fun.

Speaker 6 (01:56:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:56:55):
Yeah. I did Tony and Tina's wedding in like the
early two thousands. I went to it because I had
a friend who was in it.

Speaker 6 (01:57:01):
And it was it was a fun show.

Speaker 4 (01:57:03):
Crazy.

Speaker 6 (01:57:04):
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I really learned to uh
that show.

Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
Yeah, because you'd like go to the bathroom and there'd
be guys like pretending to do coke and stuff like.

Speaker 4 (01:57:12):
It was like a whole It was so fun.

Speaker 6 (01:57:15):
They were amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:57:16):
I'm really so sad I never made it to that
because that sounds like I would be really into it.

Speaker 6 (01:57:23):
Yeah, it was fun.

Speaker 4 (01:57:24):
It's hilarious. Miss that.

Speaker 2 (01:57:28):
Oh my gosh, do you have upcoming stuff that you
want to like, I'm looking at it right now.

Speaker 4 (01:57:33):
Give us the heads up about like I did.

Speaker 5 (01:57:35):
I did the show called Task, Yeah, and it'll be
on HBO. Mark Ruffalo is the lead. Tom Pilfree, Sam Keeley.
I get to work closely with an Irish actor. It's
the first thing in my career to really surpass Bloodline
as it's the best thing I've done in my career.

Speaker 6 (01:57:55):
I think it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:58):
Isn't it the guy who played yeah young version and Bloodline?

Speaker 6 (01:58:01):
Yeah, yep. Oh and I got to hang out knowing
quite a bit.

Speaker 5 (01:58:04):
We were in We filmed in Philly, which I loved,
or we stayed in Philly. We filmed in the suburbs.
But Brad Inglesby, who created Mayor of East Town.

Speaker 1 (01:58:12):
Yes, that's so funny when you just said it I
clicked on it on IMDb, and when I saw the
Mark Ruffalo thumbnail, I was like, this is giving me
May of east Town. Like in my head, I was like,
this feels like Mary of Eastown.

Speaker 5 (01:58:24):
So Brad who created May of Eastown and wrote every episode.
He created this show and wrote every episode. He's one
of the nicest humans you'll ever meet. He's just such
a good guy. Everyone on it was so nice. The
writing was so good. The character I got to play
was on and dangerous and exciting, and the chemistry with
Sam Keeley was amazing. And then I got to do

(01:58:46):
season two of nineteen twenty three. I was in a
little bit in the first season, and Taylor brought my
character back in a great way.

Speaker 1 (01:58:58):
Oh this is part is this part of the Yellowstone
the Yellowstone Universe?

Speaker 4 (01:59:03):
Okay, cool?

Speaker 6 (01:59:04):
Yeah, this is the one with Harrison Ford and he Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:59:07):
Geez, wow, you had to work with those suckers.

Speaker 1 (01:59:09):
That's too bad.

Speaker 6 (01:59:10):
I didn't.

Speaker 5 (01:59:10):
I didn't get to work with them. I wish I did,
but my scenes didn't have anything with them. It was
really uh, it was really neat. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:59:18):
And then I got to go back to Wednesday season
two and do a little bit here and there.

Speaker 1 (01:59:21):
That's great, And was the second season also in Romania.

Speaker 6 (01:59:25):
Now it was.

Speaker 5 (01:59:26):
It was in Ireland, which is one of my favorite
places in the mine too.

Speaker 4 (01:59:31):
I love Ireland.

Speaker 6 (01:59:33):
Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (01:59:33):
I got to go back and forth a few times,
and it was just like wonderful.

Speaker 4 (01:59:39):
I just want to seafood chowder all the time. What
you say.

Speaker 2 (01:59:44):
I love seafood chowder and just like sitting and you.

Speaker 6 (01:59:48):
Said, I'd just like to sleep with chowder all the time. Wow,
that is I never.

Speaker 1 (01:59:54):
Think of Ireland as being like a seafood chowder place,
but I guess under by walking.

Speaker 4 (02:00:00):
Yeah that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (02:00:02):
Yeah, so if you come back, because they've had you
back now every five years, so you're about due for
another season. I do like season twenty six, Like, yeah,
that's been about five since season twenty one. So uh
what what what do we like? You've played a dad,
a vigil anti dad, a minister who obviously is anti abortion,

(02:00:25):
a blonde ange.

Speaker 4 (02:00:26):
Okay, okay, I.

Speaker 5 (02:00:30):
Don't know whatever they whatever they say, Hey, Jamie, that'd
be nice.

Speaker 4 (02:00:35):
Yeah, we have moles on the inside.

Speaker 1 (02:00:37):
Yeah, we've got we've got people that listen. I can
see you as like a cop from another a cop
from another precinct or something, you know, like that has
they have to work with him.

Speaker 4 (02:00:49):
But then maybe he's back. I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:00:51):
Now.

Speaker 1 (02:00:51):
I want people to see your good side, so I
want you to play. I want you to just play
good guys.

Speaker 6 (02:00:56):
That'd be nice.

Speaker 1 (02:00:58):
Well, I cannot wait to watch task see you in
anything else you do. And thank you so much for
taking the time to talk to us. This was great.

Speaker 4 (02:01:09):
He's too good.

Speaker 2 (02:01:11):
I need I need a flaw. I need to find
a flaw in this man. He's too positive. I'm like,
can you talk a little shit, sir. But he's just happy.

Speaker 1 (02:01:19):
He's like never had a bad experience, happy for the work.
Can you imagine you're doing extra work in nineteen ninety
but things like do not pop off for you into
like the early to mid two thousand. It's just like
fifteen years of auditioning and like damn doing shorts and
stuff like Wow.

Speaker 2 (02:01:35):
The I mean that is I mean, that is like
how you build a career. It's like really rare to
just hit it, you know what I mean, and anything
like you gotta go to med school, you gotta get
boots on the ground. Well, oh, my god. There's a
new season of inc Master. You were in the group
chat unfortunately of that conversation. But it's six episodes in

(02:01:57):
when I found it. I'm still glad I found it.
But it's OG's versus New Guns, So it's teams, and
it's people with under ten years experience and then people
with over ten years experience. The most experienced is he's
twenty six years in and the ogs are.

Speaker 4 (02:02:14):
Like smashing the competition.

Speaker 2 (02:02:17):
And there's a girl that's three years in that's like incredible,
she'll probably make it to the top three, like she
is magic.

Speaker 4 (02:02:22):
Yeah, and that happens.

Speaker 2 (02:02:23):
And Ryan, who's a judge now who won, who is
also only four years in when she won, like it's
not an end some like rule, but the ogs are demolishing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:02:34):
I mean it's like Malcolm Glodwell talks about the ten
thousand Hours.

Speaker 2 (02:02:37):
What a dumb bitch, fucking I know, and I'm done
acknowledging him. You want people back in the office. We're
not talking about him, no, no, no, fuck it.

Speaker 1 (02:02:44):
But I yes, I don't love Malcolm Glodwell that much,
but I do think the ten thousand Hours is like
kind of legit, Like the more you work on your art,
like how could you not be better? And of course
there's exceptions like the random comedian who's like killer after
one year, Like you know, of course that happens.

Speaker 2 (02:03:00):
Well, I'm more thinking about the people that I've known
for fifteen years who are still not good.

Speaker 4 (02:03:05):
That is who I'm thinking about.

Speaker 1 (02:03:07):
So I know ten thousand hours is a guarantee, but
that's actually kind true.

Speaker 4 (02:03:11):
Sometimes it's just not their honey.

Speaker 2 (02:03:13):
Yeah, and that because also sometimes what happens on inc
masters at least, it's like you could work for twenty
five years and have the same bad habits, always not
want to learn, think you know everything, and come in
with like kind of outdated work without knowing different genres
and being like, well this is actually what I do
and I I know, and then the ego kind of
takes over. So there have been instances where the people

(02:03:34):
with twenty years experience really suck, but this season is
just like interesting. But yeah, things take a long times sometimes,
but yeah, you got it, because I don't like it's
always confusing when peoplere like, well I'll move to LA
and if it doesn't happen in two years, I'm out,
And it's like you shouldn't even start them.

Speaker 4 (02:03:54):
Yeah, like what are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (02:03:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's if you're willing to not do
it in two years, you should just never ever do it.

Speaker 4 (02:04:00):
It's like pretty hard.

Speaker 1 (02:04:02):
It's like what do they say? It's like you do
it because you can't do anything else, Like you do
these things because like you have to do them, like.

Speaker 4 (02:04:08):
In your way.

Speaker 2 (02:04:09):
Are the convo that I had with the prop set
design person on the India I did or not? We
were like at the little wrap gathering and we're talking
and she goes, well, what I love doing more is
showing up, building the set and leaving. And she goes,
because no offense, I don't like working with actors.

Speaker 4 (02:04:30):
Go, I get it. I get it. She's like, I
work with inadimate.

Speaker 2 (02:04:34):
Objects on purpose, yeah, because they're should be on set maintaining.
But like she said, she built one of the sets
for Survival of the Thickest, which I didn't know, like
she did them Garcelle's closet, I think. And so she goes,
I just came in, did it and left, and she's like,
I prefer that kind of work.

Speaker 1 (02:04:51):
That's so cool.

Speaker 4 (02:04:52):
Yeah it is, but yeah, you can't fake experience.

Speaker 2 (02:04:55):
But Jamie's just like grateful for the learning the process,
Like you can tell he really loves it and loves
his kids and proud of them all. And I don't
know in the him, Yeah great guy, Well what do
we think about this episode? I mean this crime the
crime like truly, like this is the kind of Oh
my god, I forgot that we're in the post mortem. Yeah,

(02:05:17):
we got to do our post mortem.

Speaker 1 (02:05:18):
But like this kind of person, this hat and guy
like truly makes me like ill that you would just
abuse your power or that you would go to school
to become both like him the coach, Like that you
would go to school and like work hard and pass
exams and do all this just you can be in
a position to like abuse people. It's so diabolical.

Speaker 2 (02:05:42):
It is diabolical, but it's not unique. And that is
like what I'm the most mad at. It's like, yeah,
these pedophiles do a lot, These molestors and rapists do
a lot to be able to get away with it,
Like why are we shocked they volunteer and do all
these things on purpose, Like these urges are.

Speaker 4 (02:05:59):
Like they can't control the I don't.

Speaker 1 (02:06:03):
Yeah, but let's go to what would Sister Peg Do?

Speaker 4 (02:06:06):
For the week?

Speaker 1 (02:06:07):
You guys know what this is. It's our weekly segment
where we direct you towards an organization or a article,
just more info or something you can do charitably to help.
Regarding the subject that we talked about in today's episode,
and this week for what would Sister Peg Do, we
would like to point you to the Innocence Project. We
have pointed you to them before, but you know, it's

(02:06:30):
never it's never too many times because they do work
to free innocent people. We obviously hated the whole Jerome
Jones storyline in this episode where someone is falsely accused
twice and obviously it does not lead to anything good
for him in the episode, but also in real life,
many people go to jail for several reasons, and the

(02:06:54):
Innocence Project works to free the innocent, prevent wrongful convictions,
and create fair, compassion and equitable systems of justice for everyone.
Their work is guided by science and grounded in anti racism.
And for more info go to Innocenceproject dot org. And
as always, that's a story the day that this episode
comes out, and then we save that story for Reva

(02:07:16):
in our what would Sister Peg do WWSPD highlights on
our Instagram page, which is That's Messed Up Pod. Go
give us a follow.

Speaker 2 (02:07:24):
Yay, all right, and next week I don't know why,
yay the innocence, but it's good.

Speaker 4 (02:07:31):
They do good.

Speaker 2 (02:07:32):
We're gonna do an episode called Smoked legendary episode.

Speaker 4 (02:07:37):
I would iconic iconic.

Speaker 2 (02:07:39):
Yeah, Season twelve, episode twenty four, and I like a
little number game twenty four divided.

Speaker 4 (02:07:44):
By two thrilling. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:07:45):
Okay, it's AKA Maloney's last episode, guys, so tune in.
This is gonna be a good one.

Speaker 2 (02:07:51):
And again, yeah, buy some Christmas gifts from our merch
if you want that to happen before Christmas.

Speaker 4 (02:07:57):
Yeah, and we'll see you next week.

Speaker 2 (02:08:08):
That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (02:08:10):
If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:08:18):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (02:08:27):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 2 (02:08:31):
Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 1 (02:08:37):
And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker
Patrick Cottner. And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song
and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to
our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer,
and everybody at Exactly Right Media dot dum

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Kara Klenk

Liza Treyger

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