Devil's Dissections & Criminal Pathology w/ Jefferson Mays

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies these episodes are based on.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
These are our stories.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Done done.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yay, that's messed up an sv podcast. We're coming to
you here. My name is Lisa, I'm.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Kara, and we are in the same state, but we're
in separate cities right now.

Speaker 4 (00:40):
This is our podcast about Law and Order SVU.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
We talk about true crime that the episodes are based on,
and then we talked to an interesting talented actor from
the episode and today's no different. I'm very excited about
today's guest, but before that we got to chat it up.
I know.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
But the episode is gonna be the first one we've
ever recorded in studio together. Yeah, but this intro won't
be I wonder how it will all sound if they
could tell the difference.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
I'm curious. Let us know if you.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
Know, if you can recognize the difference.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
It's because one right now we're at our I'm in
my garage and leasas in a hotel, and then in
a moment we're gonna be in a high class, state
of the art studio, so we might sound a little
bit different.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
My garage is great, but it's really not been.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
It's it's not a box within a box the way
that the studio is.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
But this Maria has a fridge that was so loud.
I unplugged it. I hope that's okay. You could just
unplug a fridge right for a little while. Yeah, I mean,
stuff will start to melt. But I don't what's in there.
There's like there's meat.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
In there now.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
No, No, there's not loose meat from the previous guest.
Oh so last week I talked about my lift situation.
You know, I had the driver that was like Holocaust
gays in your I mean, yeah, you're you're a Jew.
You should hate gay people. I don't want my brother
to be trans YadA, YadA. I was like, I got
to get out of this car. Yesterday, I'm on one
of my flights. I get charged eighty dollars for violence

(02:06):
and damage to the car.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
Wait, what the fuck this bitch? So I am livid.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm oh my god, and I am messaging and I
am messaging with Lyft and every time they're like, we
looked at the evidence and we stand by the charge.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
You're not. We're not taking it off.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
I go, but I know I didn't do anything, So
can you at least show me the evidence? Like what
is she saying I did? And I'm like, I took
a video of it. I talked about on the pod.
I'm like, you, she is lying. I did nothing to
that car but get out after I asked to get
out at a red light? Like what could she have
possibly said? You know, remember that one guy spilled coffee
in his car. I ended up in a car wash

(02:44):
with him. Yeah, yeah, a lot, a couple locations and errands.
Like I kept being like, I've been a customer for years.
I've never had an issue.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Like what are responsibility for my damage to the vehicles
in the past, and this is not what happened. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:58):
So it was like they just wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
I couldn't talk to a person, they wouldn't send me
the evidence.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
I'm so mad for you right now. I'm so furious.
I was about to delead it.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
I DM I DMed them and they apologized and took
it off. I think it's because I have a blue
check mark, but like if I didn't, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, because you have.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
A big following, like, honestly, that's fucked up, though, like
going around charging people for throwing up, charging people for
for this and that, Like she's oh no, I said,
I have a podcast with many listeners, and I will
be updating the listeners on what happened that woman?

Speaker 4 (03:37):
What a psycho?

Speaker 2 (03:39):
I go, this woman's unwell, I go, are you telling
me you're standing behind a homophobic maniac? Like it's like
a weird choice as a company to just blindly believe
this driver. When I did report right away, I gave
her a one star review, it wasn't like it's clearly retaliation.

Speaker 4 (03:55):
But also I want to know what the proof is?
Is this an old photo?

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Right?

Speaker 4 (03:57):
Did someone did something else happen that day?

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Like how did they like?

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Was her car? Was her car nice when you got it in?

Speaker 5 (04:03):
Like?

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Or it was a Tesla? What did she say? You
did that fucking test? They won't tell me and they
won't email me.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
And now that I got the eighty dollars back, it's
kind of like, I guess that's it. Because I was
about to delete the full app.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
I was about to be like.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
I don't need this in my life at all. But
you know, the Delta points. We gotta do it double
points for airport. But I was like, I was ready
to delete it, and then it said if I deleted
I wouldn't be able to get any credits or communication again.
So I was like, just be patient. And then because
I DMed and explained everything again, I go, this is
my six or seventh time explaining everything.

Speaker 4 (04:33):
I'm like, I've been in the chat. I've been in
multiple things.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
I go, I can't believe after everything that you guys
took in, you decided to charge me eighty dollars.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
Like that's crazy. Oh my god, I go.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
I felt so uncomfortable that I ended up walking home.
She made me so upset. I'm like, what what do you?
But I want to know what proof she had? Like
I am so curious. I m DM still and be like, listen,
I'm glad I got the refund, but I want to
know what damning evidence she had that you guys were
right to stand behind her.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh my god, Like these there need to be like
fucking back wellness checks for these fucking drivers sometimes, I think.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
But the thing is, we hear about people being assaulted, kidnapped,
and these apps don't do anything.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
So like I don't know why.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I would think they would be like so gung ho,
But I wouldn't think i'd be charged. Like I didn't
even ask for a refund. I paid for my ride. Yeah,
I was just like this lay.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, you didn't even ask for a refund and you
got out halfway through.

Speaker 4 (05:35):
Do you have to give another ride?

Speaker 6 (05:37):
No?

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I walked home forty minutes. I didn't want to get
in another car. I was like really annoyed. I was
like upset. I was like fuming.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
You know when you're like fuming.

Speaker 6 (05:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
So I was already on Santa Monica, like on the street.
So I was like, whatever, it's a straight shot. I'll
just walk forty minutes.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Whatever.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
I'll look at the gaze that's fine. Wow, I'll look
at like cuties walking around. So whatever. I'm glad I
got the money back. But I was shocked. I couldn't
believe it. I mean, you can imagine the rage I had.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
I can.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I can very well well imagine it. That's wild. Fuck yeah,
you know me. But I'm actually in a good mood.
If any of you are wondering.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Taylor Swift, I just did her Miami like the start yesterday,
New reputation body suit huge.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
Huge, huge day. Okay, new bodysuit.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Michelle Visage would not be a fan of Taylor's eras
too many bodysuits, No, but I think she.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Would like this one because the snake like wraps around
all the way down to the boot and it's like
gold it.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
It is cool, It is.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Cool, exciting. Yes, someone I went to high school with
just posted that I think they were at it. But damn,
Taylor season is back on everybody. It's back brat, Summer
is over, Taylor Fall is back happening eras fall.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
But my Instagram just keeps showing me Sabrina Carpenter's tour
and I like her, but I'm like, please stop. I
don't need this anymore. I don't need her little towel
like I can't anymore. Wait, what's her little towel? She
has like a sparkly towel, you know, and then she
like opens it up and there's an outfit like she
has like a cute like fake towel, kitch.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
A little reveal cute, cute, he's getting out of the
shower cute. I went to Bridger's birthday party. Another exactly
right person. I said no gifts the podcast. I went
to his birthday party last night. People were telling hilarious
rumors about celebrities that I was dying. Like. One guy

(07:30):
was like I heard, like I heard from this friend
of a friend that this girl was dating Robert de
Niro and this was twenty five years ago, like because
when I found out the eight when I found out
the story, I was like, wait what And then they
were like, okay, turns out he was fifty five and
he's like eighty one now, so this was twenty five
years ago at least, and he was dating some model.
They go to some hotel, she goes to take your shower.

(07:53):
When she comes out of the room, Robert de Niro
is giving himself a blowjob, is what is said. I
was laughing, So.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
I don't think he's limber enough. I exactly.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
And then my friend Mano is there and he goes, no,
when you're old, you lose all your collagen, so you're
more flexible, Like well, there's no fucking way, because I
didn't know the time the timeline, so I was like,
he's like eighty what are you talking about? And then
it was like, oh, it's from when he was fifty five.
I'm like, now I believe it even less though, because
we're talking about fifty five Collagen. I don't buy it.

(08:26):
I don't buy he can suck his own d I can't.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
I don't. I know someone that hasn't done that. And
there's really a weirder body shape. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, we were like Robert de Niro spine can't go
into a circle. Like it was just a funny conversation.
What were the other ones? What were the other rumors?
Everybody was truly like cracking up, trying to like think
of the most ridiculous like rumor they've heard, Like another
one was this.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
I mean, I think historically, I would say the the
wildest celebri rumor that is persevered for decades is Richard
gear putting gerbils up.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yes, yes, number nothing touches that, And it's like so
pervasive that it's like there's got to be like I
don't know if he does it all the time.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
I think he definitely did it one time. It's like
just so in the.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Culture, I just don't think it's a thing that happens.
But maybe I'm being naive. It just seems dangerous.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, maybe you put them in like a bag, but
they can gnaw through a bag. They can nibble through it.

Speaker 4 (09:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
But also what would stop them from dying of lack
of I don't know. I just but now I know
why it's not a hamster. Why gerbils have tails? You
could pull them out?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Oh wow, didn't even think about that. Yeah, Like gerbils
are nature's tampon. That's true, they have a little string.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Did you see the video of the two girls that
get swallowed by a big blue whale and then he
spit them out? What they were like in a canoe?
I mean maybe it's ai, I don't know, but.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Pinocchio, that is nuts. Okay, wait, I'll tell you the
other one. Somebody said, And then if you guys think
it's inappropriate, we can cut it out. But because I
don't know if you should just like perpetuate rumors that
you hear at parties. Robert de Niro's never gonna hear it,
so I don't care, but not that this person will.
But okay, so somebody, this girl, this guy was saying, like, oh,

(10:27):
this girl that he knew, like met a guy on
an airplane when she was headed to a wedding, they
kind of kicked hit it off. They met up in
the city that they were both in, and they hooked up,
and I guess at one point like her dirty laundry
was on the bed and they kind of like hooked
up on top of their dirty laundry or something like whatever.
Then like later they both go back to their lives,

(10:48):
and like she sends him a hair of like dirty underwras,
like a cute like nod to their night together, and
he calls her and is like, how could you do this?
Like I'm married, Like I can't believe you you would
do this and like send me this underwear or whatever.
And then it turns out his wife is Malala.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
Oh my god, And.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
I go, you're cheating on Malala.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
Hasn't she been through enough?

Speaker 1 (11:13):
And the guy goes, well, apparently they're open, and I'm like,
Malala is open?

Speaker 4 (11:18):
Oh my god. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
I mean, Milala's probably forward thinking, you know, yeah, but
I was dying. I don't know. I don't know if
this is appropriate to be perpetuating a rumor like this
about a plow, but.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
That's funny, activist. But I just hope Malala is open
and not getting cheated on.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
You're right, yeah, that would.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Be, but that I honestly, men have no depths to
their say there's a prophetic behavior.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
Property.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
I am watching a really crazy documentary right now. I'm
in the middle of it's called Anatomy of Lies.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
You're just gonna say, is an anatomy of lie? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (12:03):
I have read the longest articles about that whole story.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
It is fucking crazy. Is it is crazy. I'm in
the middle of the third episode. I don't know how
many there are, but I think, like also with the
woman she married, like the drama there. I mean, I
kind of don't even want to get into it. I
think because I didn't know much. It's like, Okay, it's
a liar people lie, but it's a really well done
and it's interesting and engaging, and I have a lot

(12:28):
of work to do, and it's like it's just in
the background.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
I'm like, oh my god, I.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
Know, I know, it's so the story is so wild.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
And I remember hearing that it was going to become
a documentary and I was like, ooh, I gotta check
it out. And then I've been seeing it advertised to
me because I forget who it was, like vanity fair
or somebody did like one of those turned to page
twenty eight, like turn you know, like where it continues
on for pages in the end, like long article detailing
that whole saga. If you'd have no idea what we're

(12:55):
talking about, it's the Gray's Anatomy writer, Like I'll just
say that, like, there is a Gray's Anatomy writer who
got caught lying a lot. And that's like the gist.
But there's a lot of twists and turns could be
I mean, could be at SVU truly if they yes.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
No, they didn't add it. There is there is, oh,
there is. She marries a woman they meet at a
PTSD retreat like rehabitess, and that woman had a lot
of trauma. Yeah yeah, yeah, and this this other woman
added a lot to I mean, to prey on someone
like that is truly to lie to your coworkers one

(13:32):
thing to ruin kids life, I mean, it is. It's
just scary. Yeah, I guess it's scary. You don't know
what's uh, like what's up? And people get addicted. She
got addicted. She got addicted to the attention.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
And then she gets in You get in too deep.
You don't know how to get out of these lies.
You can't un coil from them, you know. It's like wild.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, and I love hearing about all the coworkers. The
thing that slipped my mind that I remembered I saw
an article about Michelle Vassage's open marriage, and I guess
I assumed it because all the jokes are about how
she's a whore and a slut and under a bridge
and like giving hand jobs. But I didn't marry for
thirty years, and so now it all makes sense.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
I've met the article. He's hot, they're both really hot. Yeah,
her husband, they're a hot couple, and their kids are beautiful.
But I was confused why there was all these slut
jokes when she's been married for three decades. And then
this one article was like, Michelle Vissage says open marriage
brings them closer together.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Oh interesting, I never heard that before. It makes sense.
I mean it could be just a you know, a gossip,
yeah or whatever. Yeah, but it just makes sense how
she could be a married whore, you know, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
the joke's never made sense to me. Oh my god.
My opener is this guy named Tony from Arizona.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
I love him.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
He's open for me in Sacramento, Arizona. If you've seen me,
you've seen him. But him and his boyfriend got their
white dog dyed purple and rainbow colored with vegetable dyes.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
Guess how much it costs? Oh my god, I don't know.
Two thousand dollars?

Speaker 2 (15:20):
No, all right, nine hundred Okay, well, I have no
idea how much any of that costs.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
But like I always assume dog grooming and stuff is
so expensive, but nine hundred dollars is crazy.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
But he yeah, he showed me the purple and rainbow
dog and it's really funny.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Does the dog like it? I mean, can you tell
if the dog's like, hey, I used to be white
and now my fur is a different color.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
Do you think the dog cares?

Speaker 1 (15:47):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
I know they have feelings, but I don't know if
they have like a self realization.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
I don't know. Because they leap poop, they'll like lick peop.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, so I don't know if he's like, I don't
want to be purple, and I don't even think they
see collor and it's vegetable die like that's what's important
to me.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, of course. I mean Nicole dies
her dog's like tail purple, but I don't know about
the whole body is is Wow, that's a real choice, funny. Well,
but yeah, I just liked seeing a purple and rainbow
dog because this dog is so it's like a Bejean freeze,
you know, it's like a white fucking.

Speaker 4 (16:25):
Oh it's a little tiny guy. Oh, like a tiny
little guy.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, are how are you getting closer to
getting the family dog or you're still waiting till Rosie is?
What eight ten?

Speaker 4 (16:37):
What are we doing?

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Well, we told them seven years when she's twelve and
he's ten.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
But yeah, but we already decided that that's too long
because then she'll go to high college.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
She needs more time with the dog.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah. Yeah, so maybe five years when she's ten. Yeah, yeah,
it's gonna sneak up on us. You know, it's already
four and a half. I mean she's five and a
half now, so it's four and a half years. Yeah,
I'm gonna be like, I get to the point where
I'm smooth sailing. The kids are getting themselves dressed in
the morning, they're sleeping to a normal But I think

(17:07):
and then I'm like gotta get up and fucking take
a dog for a walk and clean fleas out of
its face and whatever.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
No, I think you should rescue a dog that's a
few years old, that's got that's like got its shit together.

Speaker 4 (17:20):
Yeah, that's down to play, knows how to go to
the back.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
You're not going to be training a puppy, you know,
a yard like a dog that gets it.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
You can get a dog that gets it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
The other day, I was on Instagram, by the way,
and I saw this like sponsored video of Catherine Heigel.
I don't follow her, but I for some reason was
drawn into watching it. And it was like her talking
about dogs and like dogs get older and their body
changes and their need for food gets different, and I'm
like okay, And then suddenly there's just an image of
a cue tip cleaning out a dog's butthole, and I
was like, why is this on Instagram? Assaulting me out

(17:52):
of nowhere? It was so gross. I feel like like
jar on my phone.

Speaker 4 (17:58):
I feel like.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Jared is doing that on purpose, so you guys don't
get one.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
He's like feeding your feed.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, total with things that would disgust you totally.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
Oh my god, Oh.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Wait, not that, you know, the Q tip butt whole story.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
I can't keep on it, but shout out.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
You know.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right now we're in the middle of our tour, but
Denver really showed out with the costume contest and we
all got out one particular person that made us a
Guess who an SVU Guess Who, and it was so
fun to play.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
It's not like it's not like there's a picture of
Olivia taped to like a card that says Frank or whatever.
Like the cards are custom made. The cards like that
you choose are custom made, like like a box laminated
the box. It's really really awesome. I posted a photo
of it. I'll post another one when this episode comes out.

(18:58):
I posted it in our stories. But it's like, really
big shout out to the girl who came dressed as
Rawlins and gave us that, because that's a it's an heirloom.
It's an heirloom item.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
And if you're still looking for your TEAMU Police Radio,
I have it.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
I told you.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, if you got home and you were like, oh, no,
where is it? You left it behind? Girl, you left
it behind and I snatched it. So thank you so much.
It's been in my purse. I've been taking it out
and wearing it like I love it. She'll be wearing
at the rest of the tour.

Speaker 4 (19:32):
I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
So you did a good deed by leaving it behind.
But yeah, we'd got multiple gifts in that way. But
the costumes were awesome, like Barbara Barbara, that was amazing.
Four people came in overhead bandages and parties of two
didn't know each other.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
Now they're friends.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
They're friends, I mean, and all the way around the
head bandage so good. Somebody came as a mom, like
a mom, and then Juice, so they were Mother's juice
from Bully, which is like one of my favorite references.
There was people, two people, a few people dressed as
us and they had three D printed little microphones and
they they're hair and like we're wearing glasses.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
They looked like us in the graphic from the podcast.
It was great. It was great.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
And then the sex Crimes tease. Everybody showed up and
showed out and we loved it. And I can't wait
to see what people do at the other places. A
couple I've gotten a couple of messages saying I can't
wait for you to see my costume. So I'm excited
what everyone's doing.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
And then in Denver, yeah, I was like twelve people
dressed up and it was awesome. And then in Denver
it was one woman, but Melinda Warner in Phoenix.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
In Phoenix it was one one where did I say,
you said Denver, But yeah, in Phoenix it was one woman,
but she really showed up.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
She was Melinda Warner and I loved her. She was great.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
All Right, we should we should stop because Casey's giving
us the twenty minutes and this is a double episode
so long, and we had the interview.

Speaker 4 (20:56):
Yeah, so we gotta get going. We can't talk about.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Funny because I can't talk about a buttholes for one
minute longer.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
Sorry everyone, But I'll.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Meet people at the live show and they'll say, like,
I listen to you guys every day, and I believe
it because our episodes are so long. If you're just
if you're just driving to work and back and listening,
like it can last you a fucking while. So that
makes Yeah, you're getting a lot of we're the costco
of podcasts.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
Keep it going.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, you might have to throw it away, but you
know it might not. But you can't buy a palette.
Oh we're fresh, We're fresh, We're fresh. And today's election day.
Hopefully all of you have voted, did vote. Hopefully it
is a safe election. Hopefully it goes the way of
justice and freedom and democracy, and hopefully there's not violent mobs.

(21:49):
I mean, I don't know, I'm fascism. We really need
a Harris when I mean, listen, Marishka just came out,
uh for Harris. And I know there are some republic
people that listen to this podcast, and that's totally fine,
but we have to remember what they did with the
amount of justices they had on the Supreme Court, how
they struck down Row versus Wade, and how if he wins,

(22:12):
it is two more conservative judges are going to retire
and he's going to appoint them, and then five out
of nine Supreme Court justices will have been appointed by
a game show host. I'm just saying, we cannot have that.
You guys like imagine they he keeps saying he's not
going to do a federal ban.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
I don't know why we would trust that.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
So for the sake of women, women's reproductive rights, if
nothing else, please go cast your vote, and please cast
it for the the person that's not going to dismantle
women's healthcare.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
I mean, you know, like Heraldo Rivera just came for Harris,
like like endorsed Harris.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yeah, even the Looney Tunes are switching.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
And so even if you're you know, a Republican who
sure you hate gay people and freedom, but maybe just
this one time, you can sacrifice those beliefs.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, all right, guys, let's get the episode started, all right, Guys,
today we are doing a double episode. We are doing
Devil's Dissections and Criminal Pathology, which are the first two
episodes of season seventeen. If you're watching on Hulu, they

(23:26):
jam him into one episode, so it's like watching a
little SVU mini movie. So this is a two part
Season seventeen premiere. Season sixteen, if you'll remember, ended with
Johnny Dee's dramatic courtroom shooting and then Benson officially adopting Noah.
And this season is starting out with a recap of
like the whole Gregory Yates saga, which we did cover

(23:46):
the episode Daydream Believer. It's episode eighty six of our
podcast if you want to go back and refresh your memory,
and we did interview Yates himself, the very talented Dallas Roberts.
We loved him and so, as you'll recall, he killed
a ton of women, buried them on a beach in
Long Island, and then he was convicted sent to prison.
And very interesting that in between the little recap and

(24:10):
the in the criminal justice system sexually based defenses, they
are throwing us the card about how this is a
fictional story, and I feel like that usually comes in
a different place, like they really want you to know.
And I think they're only doing this because it's like
one hundred percent based on her true crime that was
popping off at the time. But I'm going to leave
that for Lisa. It is undeniable in these episodes, of course,
So the cold open, it's just a woman's decomposing body

(24:36):
sloshing around in the ocean and literally the close captioning
said like water slashing, and then you just look and
it's like this very gross image of this woman's body
that clearly been in the water.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
For a while. We're at the beach.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
The cops are pulling out like this woman's torso and
then like delivering it to Rollins and Creasy Careese says,
what We're all thinking, was she dismembered before she went
in the water or did she come apart in the water?
The age old question, you know. And DNA tech Susan
Chung is there. Friend of the pod Karen Senley, who
has done our podcast, who says that there are cutting marks.

(25:09):
But it seems like so it does seem like it's
the first option. Creesy like somebody caught her up before
she went into the water. Finn and Benson roll up.
They all think this is Yates. They must have missed
a body. Creasey says, oh, some skinny dipping teens cutting
class kicked up the body. And I'm like, what a
confidence to skip class and skinny dip middle of the day.

Speaker 4 (25:28):
Bright.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Most of my skinny dipping has been at night. I
don't know about you. I'm not really like a daytime.
As a teen and a twenty something, I was not
daytime skinny dipping to be like, what's up, let's all
party daytime, freezing cold on the beach, and then you
find a dead body. That's a pretty hot day for
a teen.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
I would say.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
So this is weird because Yates buries his victims.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
This one was floating in the water.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Benson's like yeah, and we covered the whole island, And
Creasey's like, I just don't believe it would be a coincidence,
and Rollins is like, yeah, but the dude didn't have
the time for all of this. Like there was the
victim from the sh Chicago Pete who he killed, comes
out here, buries her, goes back into the city, like,
assaults two flight attendants, murdering one of them that has
a meal with his wife. When does he have time
to murder this random woman? And also she's a redhead

(26:14):
and he liked Brunette's So Benson's like, well, there's two options.
Either we missed a body, or there's a Yates copycat
out there.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
Dun du du du d d duh.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
So okay, we're hopping into the show at the Morgue.
Doctor Carl Rudnik has on a full gamer headset, you know,
and he's recording his notes as he examines the body.
I just don't feel like we've ever I think we've
seen Melinda talk out loud to a tape recorder, but
I've never seen her with like a little headset on,
like you know, Rhythm Nation style. He can't definitively rule

(26:46):
out that this was Yates or say that it was Yates,
but some of his findings are consistent with the Yates MO,
including signs of sexual assault. Rollins is, like you can
tell that after all the time in the water, Like
how could you even tell? And like, also, this boy
was dismembered, so that's not his MO at all. Rollins
is like really not feeling the Yates connection here, and
who knows, maybe that's because Yates is her best buddy.

(27:09):
Rudnick says the cuts were made by someone with surgical training,
and he found microscopic traces of green nail polish, which,
if you recall, is a Yates kink, Like he loved
this nail polish that was green. That was like I
think he put it on all of his victims. Careesi
is ribbing Rollins like you still think it's a coincidence,
Like after the nail polish comment, so you know they've

(27:31):
got tension, the two of them at Greenhaven Correctional. Yates
is looking over the disgusting photos of this mutilated body
that's been in the water for god knows how long,
and he's barely able to contain his boner, Like he
is so excited and he's talking to his best buddy
Rollins and he's like, so you guys think I did this,

(27:51):
And he's like, we had a saying in medical school.
If you hear hoof beats, think horses, not Zebras, which
is literally a saying before yes and the Zebra's episode exactly.
It's like what the Zebras episode is named after. So
someone at someone who writes for that show has a
boner for that turn of phrase. She brings up the
green nail polish and he basically comes in his pants

(28:14):
and just like he's like, uh, like he's so excited
about the green nail polish. And then he's like someone
is trying to frame me. And then he says gingers
are anathema to me, which is I don't know, the
sentence stuck out to me, like he does not like gingers.
They are not part of his profile. And he's like, babe,
you know I love brunettes and I would never dismember
a body. It's barbaric. I mean, this is a man

(28:35):
who bashed a flight attendant's head in you know what
I mean. And he's like, that's disgusting. I would not
cut up a body. He tells Rollins he needs a
couple of days to think about it and if she
comes back, he might have some ideas for her. And
then oh, now I was actually incorrect. Now it's the credits.
Now it's the done done. At the precinct, Rollins is
in a walk and talk with Live, trying to convince

(28:56):
her that this does not fit the Aights profile, and
she thinks she's Clarice Starling over here. She's like, I'm
cultivating a source. Benson is pissed. She's like, you shouldn't
have gone there without clearing it with me, like and
going alone. Nobody wants Rawlins to go by herself to
go talk to Yates. Finn thinks Yates is a psycho
who is playing Rollins, and then Careese busts in and

(29:17):
is like, we got a DNA match and it's from
someone in the military. Brook Groves twenty eight rotc at
sunny Plattsburgh, So all right, Cariese's like, let's head to
her last known address and Rollins wants to go too,
but lives like stay here. So she's in the doghouse. Baby,
She's getting punished. Finn and Rollins at the vending machines
are now talking about tomorrow. She's like, cause he's just left.

(29:41):
Tomorrow's just pieced out. He's happy. He's doing pet in
Laguna Beach, and he's got a lead in the US
park Police. So this is obviously a stopover profession for
tomorrow before he becomes a DNA geneticist or whatever he
ends up becoming in the more recent seasons, so that
he might.

Speaker 4 (29:59):
Do park play.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Then she's pissed. Benson's like, why is Benson grounding me?

Speaker 4 (30:04):
This sucks?

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Like I know how Yates thinks I can get inside
his head, and he's like, your fing goes. You're good
at getting inside these guys heads. Don't let them get
inside yours. You know, Ice cold facts, Ice cold fin facts.
Also at Brooke Groves's house in Westchester, there's bikes and toys.

Speaker 4 (30:19):
Careesy is very sad that the victim might be a mom.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
And the woman who answers the door is the redhead
from the DNA picture that they got, and so what
the fuck is going on? And her name I actually
know her. Her name is Cody Lindquist, and I know
her from UCB days. She is married to a guy
named Charlie Todd who started improv everywhere. They would do
that thing where like three hundred people would all go
to a best Buy dressed in a best Buy employee outfit,

(30:43):
like big sort of like very Robin Williams.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
Crank type things.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yesact exactly, very improv every like. I honestly think improv
Everywhere is the ones that did the stop thing at
Grant Central that is in that episode. I'm almost positive
they are. And so anyway, that's Cody Linquist. She's a
talented improviser. And she's like, what's up, I'm Broot Groves.
And then she sends her sons Bobby and Tommy write

(31:10):
that down on the list to our listener, who's keeping
a list of all the Tommy's in this show. Go
play iPad and then she gets out on the porch
she's like, did something happen to my husband? And they're like, no,
we're thinking there's like a mix up here. We've got
a body in the morgue. And then she immediately looks devastated,
and that's right, it's Rachel, her identical twin sister. Classic SVU.
For there to be somebody with the exact same DNA

(31:33):
she's a strange from her sister. Her husband said she
couldn't come around anymore. After the kids were born, the
sister kind of fell apart after their mom died, got
into drinking in drugs. She's like, I'd give her money sometimes,
but then you know, her husband said, you're not allowed
to talk to your sister who's obviously troubled.

Speaker 4 (31:52):
Which I don't love.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
And then a few months ago she called really high
and my sister, and I told her I was done
enabling her, and then she wants to know, like what happened.
So now we're back at the Morgue with Rudnick, who,
by the way, is played by Jefferson Mays, a prolific
character director. I've seen him in tons of stuff aside
from this, like Perry Mason and I Am the Night.
He's in a lot of stuff, and Rudnick is leading
Brooke to identify the body behind glass. I do not

(32:15):
see why this is necessary, Like if the DNA is
a match, close it out, Like why would you want
the image of your sister's like water logged, cut up
torso in your mind for the end of time. I
just don't think I would go in there for that idea.
I'd be like, you have the like IDs I thought
were kind of like in the absence of DNA matches.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Well, I think some I mean I think some people
also want to see their person.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, yeah, but it's like pretty horrific. Anyway, the blinds
go up and she's like, that's Rachel and she falls
into Rudnick's arms and she's sobbing. So now we're at
Midtown Mission and an employee there says that, yeah, Rachel
stayed here on and off. She was troubled, but I
was so happy when her mother came for her. This
woman remembers, like every SVU classic character, she remembers three

(33:04):
months ago exactly who came for Rachel and what she
was wearing. So they're like, let's go check the cameras.
And this mission has gorgeous color, like four K footage
of the outside of their place, and we see footage
of Rachel leaving the mission with this older lady, but
you can't really see her face. The timecode is all
fucked up, and they're going to have to take it

(33:25):
to Taru for a little look.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
See.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Rollins tells Benson that Yates has called twice, and he
says he's got more info and insists on only talking
to Rollins, and Benson's like, fine, you can go see
your psychopath boyfriend, but you cannot go by yourself. So
now Finn is there with her when they leave, Yates
in like. Yates doesn't love that, but he's willing to
talk to Rowins. So Yates tells him, you know, it's
a long shot, but the red hair. It kind of

(33:50):
reminded me of this incident that happened when I was
in medical school fifteen years ago, two thousand and two,
when a senior resident asked me to come over and
get him stitches. He didn't want to go to the
hospital because he was embarrassed. He had bruising and cuts
and human bitemarks on his inner thigh and scrotum, and
he said it was a sex game gone wrong.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
Ou la la.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
So Yates asks if the partner had split like the
woman in the sex game, but he could tell that
she was still in the townhouse. He saw a clump
of red hair on the floor and he could smell her.
And this is gross, but he's like, not even like
the sex or like the smell of like a woman,
just he could smell her fear, and he says to him,

(34:32):
fear smells like ammonia. Ugh Rollins wants a name, and
he's like, I'm not giving you a name, but it
was Convent Avenue in Harlem. So now he remembers again
this address perfectly from fifteen years earlier. They're at the townhouse.
Kriese said. The house was bought by the Changs four
years ago, renovated after it had fallen into disrepair by
the previous owner named Manon Favreau, who died in two

(34:55):
thousand and seven, and she was a widow. Just as
Carisie is telling Benson like, what are the chances were
gonna find anything in there, Rollins emerges and is like,
come look at what we found in here, which is
I love when that happens. CSU techs found something using
GPR ground penetrating radar and the wall used to be
a chimney. There's a wall in there that used to
be a chimney and there's something in it. So they

(35:17):
cut into the damn wall and they find a suitcase
and when they open that baby up, what is inside
but a blanket surrounding the mummified dead body of a woman.
Huge first act Benson is now downloading Barbara, they're getting DNA.
Barba's like, Babe, it's Yates, Like come on, Like everybody
keeps being like Awkham's Razor, it's Yates, it's Yates. Benson's like,

(35:39):
Rollins says, he swears he didn't do it, and Barba's like,
I can't believe this shit, Like wow, we're like taking
a serial killer's word for it. So now we're at
the morgue with Rudnik and the body was cut up
into pieces bio medical professional, just like Rachel's body was.
And Rollins does look like she's about to throw up,
and Benson and Barbara roll In and want the four
to one one from Redd. This woman was a white

(36:01):
female twenty five. He believes cause of death is strangulation
and that the smoke from the chimney and the heat
mummified the body.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
Interesting who knew? Who knew?

Speaker 1 (36:12):
He's found no DNA of the killer, and he's basically
telling them he thinks this is a Yates job without
saying it, like he keeps like sort of heavily hinting
at it. And because he's like this high up emmy,
They're all like you hear what he's saying. He's saying
it's Yates. Rollins is walking and talking with Benson and
Barba and is like, guys, he's appealing his conviction. Why

(36:32):
would he tip us off to another body? Like he's sick,
He's not an idiot. So now Benson and Rollins go
talk to Yates and he's like, I know who the
girl is and who killed her.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
And it's like, ask not what your psychopath.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Tererial killer can do for you, but what you can
do for your psycho pat serial killer. He wants a deal,
you know, he was like, what are you gonna do
for me? So they bring it to Barbara. Yeates wants
to fuck. This is what he wants. He wants a
conjugal visit with his fiance Susie Frame and we met
her in the past the Daydream Believer episode. Well, and
Barbara is pissed, like this is going to look so

(37:04):
bad if it gets out, like letting a psycho trade
like tips for Tits basically, and Barbara caves and it's like, fuck,
I love it Nips for Tits program.

Speaker 4 (37:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Barba's like, fine, let him fuck, but you better be
right about this Rollins. So they're letting a lot of
this ride on Rollins, this intuition and her you know,
sudden ability to just really get in the minds of
serial killers. Benson and Rollins are outside of a trailer
listening to the sound of Yates and his fiance boning.
It's nasty. Benson's like, are we good? And then like

(37:34):
a uniformed officer goes in to like break it up.
Susie comes out, followed by Yates, who's just in his
fucking boxers and a button down, like he doesn't not
put pants on. They need to question Susie and she's like,
I didn't know about this, and he's like, it's okay, baby,
just go like answer their questions. He asks Benson and
Rollins to come into his nasty sex trailer because they'll
have privacy in there so that he can deliver on

(37:56):
his part of the deal. Meanwhile, Susie is like, well,
now that you found these other bodies, you better release
Greg immediately, like because you know clearly this other person
did all of the crimes that he's accused of as well.
She thinks he's innocent and framed. I mean, this woman
is the mayor of De Lulu Town. She tells them
that the girl in the wall is named Lena Grunwald

(38:18):
and that they were all friends. She thought Lena went
home to Switzerland, but it looks like she never left
the States. Back in the sex trailer, Yates is also
talking about Lena and her fiance. She says his name
was Carl. He was a strange man, delicate and pale,
kept to himself. His last name is Rutnick, Doctor Carl Rutnick.

(38:39):
It's like, I know we all know this, but I
remember when this first happened. I was when I first
watched this episode. I was like, what the fuck like,
cause it's like, besides Stucky, is there another time where
like oh, and I guess Stucky. Josh peis like, there
are other times where it's somebody with visum. All the

(39:00):
judges or whatever.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
D FBI, because remember their offices have been bugged, yeah, exploded.
So I feel like the FBI people have yeah with them.
Yeah yeah yeah, because Marsha gay Harden. You know, Star,
that's true, Star was guilty of a crow. I'm not
inside inside, but pretty inside.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
But also the people that do the forensics, because that's
so I guess whatever, it's just as easy to plant
for forensics, as it is to analyze forensics. So it's
bad no matter who is framing people up. But you
like to we can trust Melinda, you know. So Benson's like,
all right, shut it down. She walks out of the
sex trailer. Rolin is like, Rowlands is like, fuck you, dude.

(39:39):
I went out on a limb for you. I let
you get some ass. I now you're playing games and
you're going so far upstate you're not even gonna believe
it. It's just like, what what did I say? Like he's
truly he's gagged. He doesn't know what's going on. Rollins
is like doctor Carl Rudnick, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner in Manhattan,
is a serial killer, and he's like, wait, Carl became
an emmy, Like do you think he knows or this

(40:01):
is an act? He seemed really surprised and excited, but
I don't know. I yeah, because like it's like if
he knew, he could have brought that up at his trial.
Like the emmy that you've let examine my case is
exactly someone I know and hasn't recused himself. So they've met. Well,
that's true. He might not even know that he worked

(40:22):
on his cases. No, unless he saw the case and
then he testified, but then this wouldn't have been Yeah,
you're right, Maybe I don't think he knew because I
don't think they keep in touch, right because we see
them in you know later, and it's not like they're
they love each other right right, right, right right? Okay,
like competitive people. Yeah, I agree, I agree he didn't know.

(40:43):
He didn't know. And he's like, that makes so much sense.
He never liked people, but he loved cutting. That's not
a great description of something.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah, but I like when people go to med school
and then realize they don't have any bedside Matt, like,
they shouldn't be a doctor, yeah, with patients and they
should do research or whatever.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Like that's totally totally And he's like, wait, did he
work on any of the bodies of the women you
found on the beach aka his victims? That could have
triggered him, That would have turned him on and made
him go want to go do a murder for himself.
So did Rudnick do the Pelham bagrel optopsy two? Have
them check again? I bet he cut her up while

(41:18):
she was still alive. Oh horrible. Barbara is furious now
top of back three of this episode, he is like,
this guy worked your asses. Rollins apologizes, She's like, I
got played. But Carisi said there was Alena Grunwald who
never graduated from Columbia and just vanished in two thousand
and two. So we got to rule this out so
that Yeates doesn't win his appeal and everyone's Cariese points

(41:42):
that out and everyone's like, yeah, Carise's actually right, like
we have to run down this lead. You know, how
well do you guys know Rudnick and Benson's like, I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (41:50):
He got here right before you did.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
He came out of Miami Dade, Dexter, everyone and everyone
that works in forensics in Miami is a serial killer.
Rudnick never mentioned that he went to school with Yates,
and he should have recused himself on the case, like,
go check if he has a connect to the townhouse
or to Lena at Susie Frain's house. She is very

(42:13):
much proving that there is a connect, showing them delightful
little New Year's pictures of Yates, Lena, Rudnick, and Susie
all like cheersing on a New Year's in two thousand
and one in Montreal. She said they went on European
vacations together a bunch of times, and she really liked Lena.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
She was worldly and spoke.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Other languages, she was fun to, a fun travel buddy,
and that her relationship with Carl was drunk and rowdy.
Lena told her if anything ever happened to her, it
was Carl. I mean, who knows what Susie says. She's
also thinks fucking Yates is innocent. So when Susie didn't
hear anything from Lena, she was going to go to
the police. But then she got a note from Lena

(42:51):
with a photo of herself in her village of Grindwald,
and it said sorry, had to get away, And She's like,
I might have the note somewhere. This woman like a
memento hoarder, which I will say, I also have pretty
much every note or letter anyone's ever sent to me,
so I'd probably be able to find it if you
gave me a few days. At the precinct, Rollins is
still working the case. She finds the cable bill from

(43:14):
the townhouse where Lena was found and guess whose name
is on it? Karl rudnick manon Fevreau, the widow who
died and owned that townhouse, Karl Rudnick's great aunt. Now
that's a pretty huge coincidence. So Rudnick also didn't disclose
that the body he just autopsied was from his aunt's
house where he lived when it got plastered into the wall,

(43:34):
Like he was a resident at the time in two
thousand and two, So he could have autopsied his own
fiance thirteen years after killing her. Oh my Godcha, quite
a twist. They got to bring in the big guns.
They got to bring in Melinda to redo all of
these autopsies. So now Warner is in the morgue listening
to the notes and find something immediately that is like incorrect.

(43:56):
She's like, well, the time of death is way off.
Like if the body went into the water in April,
the fish would have nibbled at it to a certain degree,
so it must have gone in in May. And then
Warner is pretty shocked. She's like, Rudnick is meticulous. He's
one of the top Emmys in the country. He works
six days a week, never takes overtime. We all talk
about how he has family money, and I was like,

(44:17):
it's nice to know that in other professions. They're always
trying to figure out how people have their money, because
I am. I'm always trying to be like, how can
you afford your life? You know.

Speaker 4 (44:25):
Benson is trying to make.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Excuses like maybe he's just overworked, and Warner is like, well,
his notes also fail to mention that all of the
dismemberment took place anti mortem, meaning the victim was alive
when they.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
Were cut up.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Horrible, horrible, It's like so awful. Melinda wants to know
what's up, and they're like, we can't tell you, babe,
active investigation. And then Finn, a real one, tells Melinda
just watch your back with Rudnick.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
So good.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Someone told her like, don't be alone in here with
him if he's off duty yet or whatever, Like they
haven't take him into custody for questioning at least. I
just can't believe he's just like on the loose right now.
But Rollins is showing Barbara some Swiss dentistry that confirms
that the body in the wall is Lena. So they
have TSA records of Lena returning to Switzerland, but never
of her coming back to the US. So Cariese's like,

(45:19):
what about this. What about if Rudnick went to Europe
with Lena's passport and came back with his own passport. Damn,
And Barba goes, here's suggesting he was able to pass
as a woman post nine to eleven, because it would
have been two, you know, right after nine to eleven.
So also Rachel was seen leaving the mission with an

(45:40):
older woman. They're checking facial recognition on that video. Live
is checking with one PP about bringing him in for questioning,
and Barba's like, call her off. We can ask for
forgiveness later. Right now, I'll just find a way to
get him to my office. And Rollins is like, how
about a warrant? And she is like horny for this warrant.
She's like knives dresses, who knows what we'll find? And
Barbara like gives her a nod, like go get it.

(46:03):
And so Barbara brings Rudnick in and reminds him that
the room is being recorded and that Yates is appealing
his conviction, so this conversation could be discoverable. Rudnick al says, oh,
I also record everything, so interesting flag for follow up,
As my friend Lizzie Cooperman would say, Benson arrives and
shows Rudnick the autopsy file on what he called the

(46:24):
Yates victim, Like, so he's already he's planting it everywhere. Oh,
you mean that Yeates victim. It's like, no one has
proved it's a Yates victim yet, but he's saying that.
She points out the address and he's like, wow, how bizarre.
I never noticed. It's my great aunt's house where I
lived for several years. Did not clock that. Meanwhile, Cariese
and Finn are at Rudnick's home and they find autopsy

(46:46):
photos next to his bed ill. Then they show him
a photo of Lena and he's like, yep, that's my
old flame. And then they tell him, well, we think
the body that we found in your aunt's house is Lena,
And again, how are we not arresting this man? Like,
I just I don't understand why this is not enough
to arrest him. And he says, the last time I

(47:06):
saw her she was at the airport and heading back
to Switzerland. She must have come back to New York
and then fallen in with Yates and Barbara's like, and
then took her to your aunt's house and killed her
and entombed.

Speaker 4 (47:16):
Her in the wall and you didn't know about it.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
That's that's a walk, buddy, And Rudnick's like, yep, makes
perfect sense. He also doesn't think it's weird that he
never disclosed that he knew Rudnick Yates in med school,
Like he's not. He doesn't think that's like a weird thing.
He's trying to pin this all on Yates and he
realizes that they suspect him, and he's like, oh, heavens no,
you don't think I have something to do with this.

(47:39):
And at the same time, the gang is at his
apartment and they discover his extensive worn wardrobe of fem
leaning clothes and wigs, and Rodnick is like, I better
lawyer up. So that ends that. Now Benson and Barbara
are freaking out that if this guy is guilty, it
taints every case he's been a part of, which is
fucked up. I remember in this staircase, the blood spatter

(48:03):
guy that they had like was totally wrong and they
had to go back and like examine like every one
of his cases again. So well, yeah, and that's happened.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
There was the documentary of like the medical examiner or
the testing people getting addicted to drugs.

Speaker 4 (48:19):
Yeah, and then all of her stuff had to be rechecked.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yeah. So that really fucks a lot of cases and
could let a lot of like very you know, could
let a lot of dangerous people go free. And then
up walks Rita Calhoun, you know, Carl Rodneck's lawyer, the
amazing Elizabeth Marvel, who say this, Yeah, this guy is
beyond for it. We know this guy's got the cash. Okay,
She's like, Carl is leaving and he's done talking to you.
So that Benson gets a text with a picture of

(48:44):
the closet of women's clothing and shows it to Barbara
and he goes, no, actually he's not going anywhere. And
I'm like, that's the smoking gun that's gonna keep running concustody.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
Like that's it.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Never mind, have you seen this closet of dresses? Like
how about it was his girlfriend? He was living at
the house talking to the murder. There's so many way
reasons to suspect him. But they're like the clothing, that's
what does it for us. Anyway, they all walk in
and Benson arrests Rudnick with cuffs. It's the whole thing.
They take them away in court, Rita is requesting roar,
but Barbara is ready for that shit. Rudnick is accused

(49:17):
of horrible crimes, covering shit up plus being a rich
bitch so he can flee whenever, and they believe he's
traveled internationally with a victim's passport. So the judge is like, agree,
I'm surrender. He needs to surrender his passport and bail
is two million dollars. That's a high bail. In the
next scene, Finn tells us up top that Rudnick posted
that bail like no problem immediately. The Rodneck stories all

(49:40):
over the news. There's daily News and like the New
York Post, like all of these like things have like
you know, I thought I wrote it down somewhere like
bad bad doctor or whatever, like murdering doc or something,
murdering medic, something like that, murdering Emmy. Benson is sending
Noah off with you know, full time nanny Luis.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
She works around the clock.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
The facial recognition of the Lena Tsa photo isn't enough.
They need that photo that she allegedly sent to Susie,
but no one can reach Susie right now. And when
they talk to Yates, he was concerned because she missed
a phone date with him, and she would never miss
a phone day with Yates. So they talked the night
before and she said she found the photo and it
looked like Rudnick in drag and she'd never noticed that

(50:23):
it wasn't her beautiful friend who was a twenty five
year old woman, it was instead a man in his forties. So,
uh oh, is Rodnick still in custody? No, he made bail,
so this is bad news. Cut to Susie's house. It
is a wreck. Everything is tossed, blood is splattered and
smeared everywhere, and a uni is like, hey, sarge, we
got freshly cut body parts coming in with the tide.

(50:45):
So this is all happening very fast. Now they're back
at the beach. They're putting the pieces together of the body.
There's a leg and arm. Then they find her head
and they're like, okay, it's Susie. Here's her head, and
poor Yates is fiance. She is like lying on the
beach like a jigsaw puzzle person. And at Rodneck's house
they're about to drill the door open when Rita arrives

(51:07):
and she's like, you don't have a warrant and Benson
is like trying to use yesterday's warren, which is kind
of funny because Benson's usually so by the book and
she's like, well, we had one yesterday and Rita's like yeah,
but like, no, you can't use that. Warrants aren't like
you know, they don't cross over to other days, and
they're like, Rita, babe, this guy killed someone. And Benson's
going back and forth arguing with her, like while the

(51:28):
camera flips back and forth to the beach where Rollins
is just like staring at Susie's puzzle piece body and
Rodneck's car is missing. He's not answering his phone, and
Rita's like, get a warrant, and this guy's in the
wind back at the Susie scene, Rollins has to run
and puke, So that's interesting. She's been looking squeamish the
whole time, and normally she's fine with that kind of stuff.

(51:49):
So Barba is furious. He's like, this guy gets out
on bail and now a prosecution witness is washing up
in the tide, like where.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
The fuck is this guy? He's tweaking out.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Then he gets a call on his phone and he goes, yes,
I'll hold for the governor and it's like, wow, a
lot of stress. I can't imagine, you know, the governor's
calling you to basically shit on your your police work
and your department's police work.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
So greasy.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Benson and Rollins are now talking about the photo. It's
nowhere at Susie's house. So maybe she called Roudnick to
tell him she had it to blackmail him, and she
wouldn't have thought that up on her own. Like, we
got to talk to Yates, and Rollins wants to go alone,
but Benson's like, no, not happening. So at green Haven,
the prison, Benson and Rollins are now talking to Yates.
He wants to see the body. He wants to see

(52:33):
Susie's body like he's sick as hell, and he wants
the Emmy to also check Susie's hCG levels. He wants
to know if she was pregnant, he said, I think
like basically they had sex in the Daydream Believer episode,
like that was you know earlier, a few months earlier
in the timeline of the show, and now he wants
to know if she's pregnant because when they had their

(52:55):
conjugal recently, she agreed to take a pregnancy test. He
was maybe going to be a father, and Rudnick took
that from me and it fades to black on Yeates
is like a psycho face, and I think this feels
like the beginning of the next episode. I think it is,
but I can't be sure. Benson is in a new
outfit and blowout, so that's why I think, Okay, it's

(53:15):
a new day, it's a new down, it's a new episode.
She walks into the precinct and they're on the hunt
for Rudnick. They're searching his credit cards, you know, checking
planes and everything nothing. Rudnick has been wiring money to
four different people and one of them named One of
them is named Terry Fish, and Rollins finds a Teresa
Fish in his caseload and on the DMV site, they

(53:36):
pull up Teresa Fish and it's fucking Rudnick in a
long blonde wig on the license photo. Which you gotta
love this guy's commitment to the bit. He's really like
everything's planned out. He's got multiple personalities, multiple bank accounts. Yeah,
I would love to see you and him send some
Google callin loving each other.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
I'm loving the logistics.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
It's like seems like a really fun like, okay, well
today Teresa's got to be at this apartment.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Well you know Jared, uh, you know, not your husband,
but we've become closer throughout recent time, and just last
week he looked at me, he goes, so you get
really riled and stressed out logistics, Like, yes, that is me.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
It's like funny to see people learn your inner workings.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
But yeah, we were just going and he was being
late and I was so bro I'm like, I'm just leaving,
I'll meet you there, like I can't do.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
And he was like, you're usually just so chill about
things and not care and like.

Speaker 4 (54:36):
Go half your things.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
But he just because in the car I was being
crazy too, and he goes, wow, love that tone you've chosen,
and so yeah, he learned.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
He learned I love love that tone you've chosen. That's
really funny. Oh my god. So like a plan changed
really quickly, and I was in the car be like, oh,
so she's invite ourselves and then change the restaurant and
then I go, I'm actually fine, sorry about that, and
it's fine. He's just starting to see the cracks of
my personality, but he's sticking with me. It's worth it.

(55:13):
It's worth sticking through. Wait, I tell you this, you're
gonna love this.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
So or maybe I didn't tell you, but I did
his podcast and he's like, oh, tell me how to
say sorry?

Speaker 4 (55:21):
What in Russian?

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Ah?

Speaker 2 (55:23):
So I'm like teaching him how to say it? And
then I go, why do you want me to teach
you to say that? He goes, it's the name of
the podcast.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
I knew that I did because I remember, like when
I saw it, I was like, that's perfect for him
because that sound it's like sorry what Like that sounds
like something Jared would say. I know, But why do
you want me to teach you how to say that?
That's so funny? Oh my god, No, I don't. Can
you say that's messed up in Russian? Or does that

(55:51):
not really translate because it's like so colloquial. Yeah, I'll
think about it, and but that just means that ain't right.

Speaker 6 (55:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
I like that that shit ain't right. Okay, maybe that's
new merch is that's messed up in Russian? And I
don't know cyrillic letters. Would you guys wear a sweatshirt?
Let's do it cyrillic? Is it that the letters in Russian? Sure? I, oh,
maybe I'm wrong. Somebody tell me Casey Google. I don't
want to get canceled. So anyway, Rudnick's got a fucking

(56:23):
lot of personalities bouncing around here. So we they're like,
get to that apartment of Teresa Fish. Maybe Rudnick's hiding there.
Carees checks with Rowlins if she's okay, because he's like,
you're always like ten steps ahead of me and you're
pukin and what's going on? And She's like, I had
a bad bagel, And I'm like, is that a thing?
Like a bad bagel? I had a bad I mean

(56:43):
it's like I had a bad piece of fish, Like
I wouldn't say, well, maybe there was like salmon, yeah,
yeah yeah, or the cream cheese was off.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
And she's like I'm fine, and so yeah, she's classic
blowing Careesy or anyone that's concerned with her off.

Speaker 4 (56:58):
You really just said blow without the off for a while.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Oh yeah, you said she's really blowing creasy off. Didn't
even realize wishful thinking for greasy am I right, uh,
But this landlord at this apartment building is.

Speaker 4 (57:14):
Like classic New York neighbor. She's like, I haven't seen
Terry around. I miss her.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
She's a perfect tenant, you know. She's given them all
the scoop and they're like, oh, have you talked to
her lately?

Speaker 4 (57:23):
And they're like, what is that? She goes, what is
that a joke?

Speaker 1 (57:25):
Terry's mute and deaf, So she lets them in the floor.
There's a part of the floor in the apartment that's
been like newly laid with like linoleum tiles and people
don't fuck with yeah, yeah, and it just looks well.
First of all, there's also another closet of wigs. And
then also Amanda peels up the tile like without like

(57:47):
any kind of tool. She just peels it up like
it's just been like laid there and not really like
glued down. And there's the first piece she pulls up.
She can see red strands of hair and cutting marks
on the original wood floor, so kind of looking like
something really fucked up went down in that little apartment
and that old lady was not hearing it. Back at
the Morgue, Warner's helping them find more of ruck at

(58:09):
the more.

Speaker 4 (58:11):
At the more, Warner's.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Helping them find more Rudnick Sketchiness, a fifty year old
on housewoman who died a few months back. Rudnick says
there's no match for her fingerprints or DNA, but Warner
got a match and her name is Teresa Fish, so
he obviously chose this woman's identity, said she was unidentified
so that he could send her to like what's that
field called. There's like a field where they send all

(58:34):
the unidentified victims.

Speaker 4 (58:36):
In New York.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
And Warner's like identity thief, rapist, murderer. The damage he's
done to the Emmy's office, she is really pissed. She's like,
not my office, Like this is my integrity, this is
my profession.

Speaker 4 (58:48):
She's mad, mad mad.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
We also find out that Rudnick beat out Warner for
this job. Benson's like, you should reapply, and it's like,
why don't guys just give it to her? Why don't
you just not do another application?

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Even how good is Rudnick that they wouldn't have picked Melinda,
Like she's so good at her job, and.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
I know I have to believe it's like tim Ortuoni
was doing like a movie or like right or like.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
To me, I was like, of course, it's racism. Of course,
Melinda's more qualified for the job, and they gave it
to a white rich man.

Speaker 4 (59:19):
Well.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Also, I guess if Warren ltt knew he was going
to do this kind of storyline, he wasn't going to
have Melinda do that.

Speaker 4 (59:26):
That would honestly be the worst thing.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
If any showrunner or anyone decides to come in and
make Melinda Warner evil.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
I would actually commit a great make her do anything wrong,
make her like run a test without saying like, I mean,
she's got she's by the book. Well, she's done some
favorites for Benson. She ran her HIV test privately. Yeah yeah,
but then the brother DNA but then she was pissed
about it. Yeah yeah, don't put me in that possession. Yeah,
so I got the.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
Secret AIDS test.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
She has to rerun the Prince and the DNA on
every case that called runn has touched. So she's not
happy and she does all that work. Well, why don't
we just give her the fucking promotion? Huh. So Rollins
is at the Teresa Fish apartment now with CSU technician
Colin Bennett. He's the British. There's so many CSU techs
in this episode, Colin Bennett's the British one who's been

(01:00:13):
in like four episodes. That's the character's name, The British one. Yeah,
he's I remember him being like, oh yes, a piece
of rupe. Like he's just like he's like the only
British one I think we've ever had. And he and
Rollins dig into some more linoleum and underneath dried blood.
So he did not clean up very well. He just
decided to lay littoleum instead of bleaching.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
But then Careese shows up to whisker off to beautiful Syracuse.
Rodnick just got picked up for shoplifting. When they get
there to the police apartment in Syracuse, they've let rutne
It go.

Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
They're like, he was crying that his mom was dying.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
He said he had a flight to catch and he
stole a box of coffee nips, Like we didn't, you know.
So they tracked down a bus that's headed for Buffalo,
and they meet it when it arrives because I guess
they figure that's like the only way out of Syracuse,
and he's obviously trying to get to camp up even
though he doesn't have a passport. And especially after nine
to eleven, you do need a passport to get into Canada.
But she spots Rudnick getting off the bus in drag

(01:01:08):
pink floral pink cardigan, you know, and he's got a
little bouncy, curly brunette wig on, So yet another one
of his personalities that he probably wires money to. At
Buffalo PD, the head guy there goes, so, you got
a cross dressing rapist murder in your emmy's office, you
New York You guys down in New York City really
are progressive, which I.

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):
Thought was really funny.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Like they didn't hire him because they knew he was
a cross dressing murderer. When they found Rudnick, he had
sixty four thousand dollars of cash on him. Oh my god,
why is he shoplifting coffee nips?

Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
Like that is wild?

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Like you're on the run, dog, Like why do you
feel the need to get like the rush of shoplifting
and be rich?

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
People don't think the rules apply to them.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Yeah, but Rudnick is in a holding cell and they
have made him remove his wig or he has done
it by choice, but he is no longer wearing his
well because I think would be.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
More respectful of this was someone that felt better in
women's clothes.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
But yeah, I don't trus He's not doing it because
of his identity.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
No, no, no, no, he's doing it, so we don't have
to respect him. Yeah, exactly, he can say his wig
is bad. Exactly, he is wearing that way. He's not
on a journey of identity. In the Morgue, Warner has
finished the autopsy on Susie Frayin and she says the
cause of death is exanguination. But for her, he did

(01:02:27):
dismember her post mortem, and she probably died from damage
to the federal artery because she can't find the wound,
and the upper thigh where the federal artery is is
like the only piece that's missing from her body. So
she also confirms twist Susie was pregnant. There was about
to be a little Gregory Yates running around. Maybe Yates

(01:02:48):
maybe running kind of did us a favor there. We
don't need a baby Yates. This delusional woman and Yates
making a baby together. That's nobody's society needs. So now
we cut to a hilarious road trip movie which is
Careese at Rolins and Rudnick in the backseat like it's
fully Crossroads but SVU style. I'm loving it. Rudnick can't
believe they're driving back to Manhattan and they're like, dog,

(01:03:10):
didn't you just take the bus here? And they're like,
we can't believe you skipped out on a two million
dollar bail And he's like, I can't believe they let
me go after accusing me of two murders. But if
I was out on bail, why wouldn't I run? And
then they're like, well, we found your car, and he goes,
We'll give yourself a gold star, Like I really love
the way this guy plays Rudnick, Like every line is
he's so good. Yeah, he's so good, and he's not

(01:03:32):
scared and yeah, and there is like I mean Coreese
says it later, there is something almost like charming about him,
like you can't imagine that he's this like six zero
killer that, by the way, killed people, cut people up
while they were alive, like horrible. Meanwhile, they find Rudnick's
burnt out car and they find a little bit of
blood in it, and now the Crossroads gang has stopped

(01:03:53):
at a diner. Rudnick is hard judging rawlins and carees
because they're eating like full American brack, like bacon, eggs,
hash browns, probably like a waffle or pancakes are on there.

Speaker 4 (01:04:05):
I couldn't make it out.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
So he nibbles on toast while they're just like fully
chowing down on this like breakfast. And I mean, I'm
sure they drove all night to get to, like driving
around to Syracuse Buffalo.

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
They're hungry. I don't like let them meet what they want.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
He asks to use you know, the little boy's room,
and he's in there for a while. So then Careesy
goes in. Normally I would think, oh, he's escaped, he's
gone out of a window, and they're gonna find him, like,
you know, running in his little dress down the street.
But Rudnik is actually just in there talking to himself,
and he's like going, they think I killed that woman
and cut her up? Oh terrible quiet doctor good Man,

(01:04:40):
Like he's saying all this weird, just like talking to himself,
but he doesn't say anything incriminating. Rita shows up at
Barbara's and she's got an excuse for everything. Rachel's hair
is in the apartment because he did the autopsy. Susie's
blood is in the car because he gave her a
ride and she got a paper cut. They were friends,
but she's really there to a wheel and deal, and
she's it's like, your bosses do not want a big trial,

(01:05:02):
and Emmy being accused of being a serial killer, like
that's a bad look. He'll plead to one count of
tampering with evidence and one count of unlawful disposal of
a body and this all goes away, and Barbara's like misdemeanors, Babe,
he killed three women, and two of them he cut
up when.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
They were alive.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
He goes, I can offer manslaughter twenty years for each
count served concurrently, which is still not enough. You'd get
out in twenty years. Yeah, So Rita lays it out
a public defender could get him that, and he's paying
for more than that, which is really she's truly laying
out like the truth about everything with the law and crimes,
like the criminal justice system, like if you pay for more,

(01:05:39):
if you have enough money, you truly, I think, can
appeal and appeal and appeal until like at the very
least your sentence gets reduced if you don't just get
fully off because of a technicality that they find on
like Trial five.

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):
You know it's wild.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Money. Money does make the fucking legal world go round,
for sure, and Barbara says, well, I hope there's I
hope there's enough money in the world, Rita. He tries
to give her like an ethical, you know, guilt trip,
and Rita says, all of your cases are fucked if
you get a conviction, starting with all of Yates's. And
that's true. Barbara calls Rollins and wants her to defy

(01:06:14):
live and go see Yates by herself. We need his
help to put Carl Rudnick away. So now Yates is
telling Rollins that he was worried about Susie. He says,
Susie believed that she could blackmail Rudnick with the photo,
so he'd work to free Greg. And Yates knew it
was dangerous, but she wouldn't listen this plant plan. I
don't believe. I don't believe Susie came up with all this.
I believe he told her to do it. He knew

(01:06:35):
she was pregnant. She had a slightly different scent, kind
of like you do. How far along are you? And
Rollins looks grossed out, And you know, whenever I see
anybody puking and there's not kind of like a definitive
answer about it. You can always assume they're pregnant. I
pretty much guessed did at every show I've ever watched.
So we got to this very quick scene at the

(01:06:56):
DAPA Bag three, which is Rollin's just at home with
two positive pregnan and see tests and she's like, huh, well,
that's something I am for sure pregnant. And as we know,
she's recently been in sort of like a quick fling
with Nicka Morrow.

Speaker 4 (01:07:10):
We don't really know what's going on.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
At arraignment, Barbara is adding Susie Frain's murder to the charges,
and then who barges in? But you can in not
this crazy psycho affording the two biggest shark lawyers in
New York City, I mean dream team. Honestly, getting either
one of them is like a ton, and he's like, sorry, Rita,

(01:07:33):
the state doubled down, so I thought fit to do
so myself or whatever. So he's got now two Sharks
on his team. The judge revokes bail because obviously this
dude does not respect bail, and both lawyers try to
file motions at the same time to separate the charges,
and it is kind of like slapsticky, like they both

(01:07:53):
hold up their.

Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
Little blue papers.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
Then they look at each other like me too, like
they're both trying to do it at the same time.
So in the squadroom vending machine area again, Carees calls
Rollin's out on being pregnant and is like, so have
you told anyone yet, like cause I don't know Rollin's
has Like I mean, Carees has a bunch of sisters,
so I guess he just knows when people are pregnant.
And she says, it's not your business, but it's not Nicks. Okay,

(01:08:18):
so very important to let everybody know it's not Nicks,
but we don't know whose it is. At a bar,
Barba is pounding whiskey when Benson joins and Rudnick's team
was able to separate the charges, which is not good.
They want it to seem like he's a serial killer,
not that she like he killed one person. He says
they need the thigh, but it's gone, and they're like,

(01:08:38):
let's go with Susie. That's the strongest case because I guess, yeah,
one's twelve years old, fifteen years old, the other one's
the body was so washed up like that. This is
probably the one that has the most evidence in it
cuts a court. Benson's on the stand, b Canon, you
know our pal Delaney Williams, friend of the pod. He's
trying to act like Susie was framing Rudnick to try

(01:09:01):
to get Greg Yates out, and that they plotted it
all out during this conjugal visit. So uh oh, word
of the conjugal visit is out and dramatic music slow
pushed in on Benson at the end of this scene.
That kind of symbolizes like fuck is Rudnick winning? Like
what's happening now? Rollins is on the stand and she's
explaining how Susie was helping with the investigation, and Buchanan

(01:09:23):
is trying some shit but Barbara's not having it. And
then Rita gets on her about visiting Yates in prison
so much like is that common practice for a female detective?
And it's like Rita, not very feminist of you, Like
why couldn't a female detective go visit a suspect alone?
I mean, Clarice Starling's been doing it since nineteen ninety one. Sorry,
I have to bring up silence of the lambs as
much as I can. It's like in my contract, she's

(01:09:45):
trying to make it seem like Rollins was getting played
by Yates all along, and that Yates is behind all
of this. Outside the courthouse, Benson checks in on Rollins,
and Rollins, you know, drops the bomb that she's pregnant
and it's not Nick's. She wants everyone to know I
am not carrying a tiny, swarthy baby in my womb.
Benson looks shocked. Rollins begs to work as long as possible,

(01:10:06):
like you know we always talk about it's like, girl,
take a fucking break, Like you know, she's like eight
months pregnant, Like let me get to that crime scene.
But you know, I think we all know this storyline
is happening because Kelly Gettish is pregnant in real life.

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
So she's like, please let me work.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Like, don't report it because Benson's like, girl, they're going
to put you on desk duty. And then they just
have a little chat about how single momming is hard,
because you know, Benson's been a single mom for like
a few months, and she's you know, just telling Rollin's
that she's going to need help, and she's like well,
my mom might be moving into the city, and you know,
spoiler alert, that does not work out so well for her.
Back on trial, Melinda is on the stand now and

(01:10:44):
she's explaining how Susie Frain died and how the thigh
that is missing is likely where the fatal injury occurred.
Rudnick had defensive wounds on his hands, but Melinda can't
say how those happened, and Buchanan is trying to argue that, well,
you can't explain how Susie Frain got her injuries either,
and Melinda.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
Is heated, like, well, two people walked.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Into that house and he walked out and she did not,
so you know, I'm not an idiot. Then Buchan, in
this piece of shit, tries to frame it that Melinda
is mad because Rudnick got the job over her, and
it's like, how dare you? How dare you question Melinda's
integrity and that she might have that she might be
testifying against him because he beat her out for a job.
That is not our girl, Melinda. And Barbara then plants

(01:11:25):
the scene with the jury that Rudnick's wounds could very
well have been self inflicted, like not that hard to
just slit yourself on the hand a couple of times
and on the arms. In the elevator, Caresy is kissing
Barba's ass, but Barba is worried, like something is coming.
He's like, I've never seen a defense so cocky. Rudnick
is so calm, and Careese's like, wow, there's no way
in hell Rudnick's going.

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):
To take the stand, and like it's a pattern this
whole episode.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
Carizik's being like, well, it's this and it's never that,
Like we're not gonna find anything in this townhouse.

Speaker 4 (01:11:52):
Come check out what we found in the townhouse.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
Like so that he goes, there's no way blind in
because they had cute banter. I know, yeah, there's no
way that let Dnick take the stand. Oops, look what
you accidentally manifested? Crazy, Look what you made me do.
Back in court, Defense calls call Rudnick to the stand.
So he is taking the stand and he tells the
jury that what happened was Susie attacked him with a

(01:12:15):
kitchen knife and he killed her in self defense. Yates
had brainwashed Susie into thinking that Rudnick was framing him.
She accused Rudnick of tampering with all the autopsies. So
he made the mistake of laughing, and she went crazy
and attacked him with a huge kitchen knife, and Rita
was like, what'd your mind? Stepping down and demonstrating what happened,
and then he has this like long process of removing

(01:12:36):
his jacket, rolling up the sleeves, and then Benson clocks
a bunch of like cuts on his arms. Rudnick re
enacts what happened, and you know, he gets very emotional.
He's like shaking, and it's a performance for the jury.
It feels like he's like like recalling the moment that
he took a life. And it's like, you know, I
don't buy it, but he wants the jury too, really bad.

(01:12:58):
Then he says, when he saw the blood, he knew
he'd hit the femeral artery. He blacked out. How convenient
And when he came to it was too late to
save her. What a convenient blackout? It just happened over
the course of the time that she was bleeding out.
And then and also, what would make you blackout blood?
You're an emmy? Like why you know, it's not like

(01:13:19):
I faint when I see blood, you know, so he
didn't go to the hospital because he knew no one
would believe him, so he just tried to get rid
of the body because he felt that the system was
already against him. He went on the run as a
woman because he said everyone was looking for Karl, no
one was looking for Carla. But it's like, that doesn't
really explain why you have house multiple apartments in different

(01:13:41):
women's names.

Speaker 4 (01:13:42):
But anyway, Barba's turn.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
He's like, but you would also know how to mimic
defensive wounds and cut up and dispose of a body,
and Carl's like, yes, unfortunately, those skills come with my job.
But then Barbara has the receipts home depot where Rudnick
bought a saw and bolt cutters to chop up Susie
at eleven fifty on the night she was murdered. Iley
can't believe how close all this is to the real crime. Yeah,

(01:14:06):
they really took a lot, but then they yeah a lot, yeah, yeah,
which I'm sure people loved because you're going to get
into it. But the crime you talk about was like
the thing everyone was talking about at this time.

Speaker 4 (01:14:17):
Everything you know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:19):
So Rudnick goes, yes, luckily I was able to make
it there before closing time. Like, he's not denying that
after his blackout he calmly went to home depot and
bought the tools to dismember a body.

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):
And he's very.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Like, no, no, no, I was just chopping down a tree. Yeah. Yeah,
he's for the city. Yeah, he's audacious, this man. But
then Rudnick is like, it is my most fervent wish
that we would find the thigh because that would prove
my claims are true. That would prove you know, the
angle and everything would prove like his story about her
attacking him first is true. He admits to cutting her up,

(01:14:51):
but maintains that the murder was self defense. So outside
the courthouse, Oh, I love this look. It's like a
chilly New York early evening, wet streets, like maybe after
a little rain shower, And I'm loving that. It looks
like they all just got out of work and then
maybe all going to go get a little drink. And
I really I can like smell what that scene smells like.

(01:15:11):
Careesi again is trying to pump up Barba. He's always like,
you did great in there, Baba, Like he's like Barba's
number one cheer litter and he thinks Barba's like I
bombed actually, And Careese and Rollins are telling them how
Rudnick talks to himself all the time and he records
all his autopsies. Maybe it's worth going to listen to
them and see if he slipped up somewhere and like
said something weird. So Careese's like, hey, Rollins, let's make

(01:15:34):
a date of it, and like, let's go listen to
some creepy tapes together. So at the tape date, Rollins
is listening to Rudnick explained that redheads are less susceptible
to anesthesia.

Speaker 4 (01:15:43):
Have we talked about this before?

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
No, I don't think so. I googled it and it
is a thing. That's the National Institute of Health says quote.
Research has shown that people with red hair perceive pain
differently than others. They may be more sensitive to certain
types of pain and can require higher doses of some
pain killing medications. However, studies suggest that their general pain

(01:16:05):
tolerance may be higher.

Speaker 4 (01:16:07):
That's interesting. I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
It's like people that are trying to be like gingers
or other.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
Like I know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
Wild, I've never I guess I'm trying to think of, Like,
any I guess next time I see Bridger, I'll be like,
I'll slash them with a knife and see if he cries.
But hold on, Careesy has got something on one of
these tapes. So now we are watching video. Remember what
we flagged for follow up that Barbara was barb I
just called it Barbara. I heard that Barbara was questioning

(01:16:37):
Rudnick and saying, oh, just a reminder, everything in here
is being taped.

Speaker 4 (01:16:41):
After he lawyered up.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
Barba leaves the room and Rudnick is alone and completely
forgets that he was told five seconds ago that the
whole room's being taped. He's talking to himself and he's
saying Rachel was a crackhore with green nail polish and
a proximity to Yates as victims, Lena, no one will
believe Yates. Susie is my only problem and she's a
dumb ass, basically, is what he's saying in her in

(01:17:05):
his in this little confession that they're catching not only
on tape but on video, like they're catching him saying
all this, and then there's they cut to a shot
of Rudnik watching this and oof Rita and Buchanan are
positioned right behind him, and you just see them turn
their heads towards each other, look at each other, and
they're both.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
Kind of like, well, I help the check. I help
the check clears, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:27):
And Rudnick goes on to say in the video that
he'll have to kill Susie just like the others, kill
them all, Carl, whatever it takes.

Speaker 4 (01:17:36):
So that's what he says. Pretty fucked.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
Uh, you wouldn't believe it if it hadn't happened in
focking real life.

Speaker 4 (01:17:44):
They're all watching this in the judges chamber, but.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
You know this happens probably on movie sets and TV
show Oh yeah, like you really have to be so.

Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
On it and know what's up totally totally. People are listening. Yeah,
I mean I remember I've worked on shows where people
just go to the bathroom and like pee with their
MIC's on, and like the producers can like hear them pissing. Like,
you know, there's a lot of hot mic moments, but
but you know, Meredith's ahoor she's fucked up in New
York City another iconic hot mic moment. I would say

(01:18:17):
that goes right up there with the hot like moment
that you're gonna talk about. So they're all watching this
in the judges chambers, and Buchanan tries to argue it's inadmissible,
and the judge is like, I bet you'd love that.

Speaker 4 (01:18:29):
To be true.

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
And he's like, what walk me through the chain of custody,
like how did you find that? And Buchan's trying to
argue like, well, this is Brady like this. If this
was available, it should have been turned over to us.
And Barba's like, dog, you had this tape the whole time.
You just stopped watching. We just kept watching, and the
judge agrees, and Carl is this is where you see
Carl's mad side.

Speaker 4 (01:18:48):
He's pissed.

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
He's like, you had the recording the entire time and
you didn't know. And then he moves for new council.
But the judge is like, whatever you want, dude, but
this is admissible no matter who was representing you. So
now in Rudnick is changing his plea, oh, he's changing
it to guilty, and Susie Frame's murder on Rachel's murder,
he goes, I'm afraid I'm guilty on that one as well,

(01:19:10):
like she just has such a funny little way of talking.
And then Barbara, Oh my god, I did it again.
Barbara withdraws the charge for Lena, and I'm not sure why.
I guess maybe they don't have enough evidence because it
could have been him Mary Yates and it was fifteen
years ago. But I wish there was justice for Lena,
Like I'm sure her family in Switzerland wants to know
what the fuck happened to her. Her mom. Also, it's like,
get with it. I just feel like no one cares. Yeah,

(01:19:34):
no one. The letters like, yeah one, no one reported
her missing. Like I guess our relationships different times in
our s view or yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
I guess family dynamics are different. But it was like, right,
I guess just a letter's all it took. I don't
know totally. So, but there's a new catfishing thing coming
out on NETFLI I watched the trailer and this girls
catfish for like ten years or something.

Speaker 4 (01:19:58):
Sweet Bobby, Oh, okay, I listened to the popcast. I
listened to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
Okay, but it's like a woman, a cool woman, and
it ruined her life and yeah, in England or something.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
It's wild. But again, it's kind of like you were
dating somebody for ten years that you didn't ever meet
in person.

Speaker 4 (01:20:16):
That's so crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
I know, you know, like I I understand she seems
like a normal person, so you're kind of like, okay, okay,
but then even then nothing like, I don't know, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:20:27):
It's it's truly wild.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
But Yates back at prison, so this will be after
we're talking about the Lina stuff. Back in prison, Yates
is also pissed. He's like, so he just gets to
get away with Lina's murder and Rollins is like, yeah,
but he's getting twenty five to life for the other two,
so you two might be roomies. One day, he's telling
her strangulation was the cause of death and so maybe
that's why they couldn't do Lina's case because like cause

(01:20:50):
of death wasn't clear because Rollins brings up that there
was also a skull fracture and Yates very confidently goes,
the skull fracture was post mortem, and he goes, I
would think maybe it was his first time he screwed up.
He had to call someone more experienced to help. And
then Rollins is like, what did this person tell him
to do? It's really creepy. This is very doctor Lecter,

(01:21:10):
and I wrote, this is so fucked very silence of
the Lambs. That's what I wrote in my notes. He goes, well,
the person probably would have advised him to keep Lena
alive as long as possible. Such a waste to have
her die so quickly. And then he believes when one
life ends, another begins. So just like she's bringing a
life into this world and he lost his fiance and child,

(01:21:31):
and he feels a connection with Rowlins. It's like, ew
are you trying to tell Rollins that maybe like the
spirit of your murdered baby is like going into Rollins's
new baby, because yuck. That for Rollins, this is a
bridge too far. She leaves and he's like you'll be
back and I'll be here. And the last scene is,
I mean, they really give it to us. It's so funny.
The last scene is Yates sitting alone in the prison

(01:21:53):
cafeteria because I bet even the other prisoners are like, no,
not that guy, like the Long Island serial killer. I'm
good and up while his old pal Rudnik and he's like,
may I join you? And he's like, Rudnick is like,
we have a lot to catch up on and that's
Dick wolf.

Speaker 2 (01:22:07):
Baby, and not even the end of the series. I
think we're gonna keep closing this out. I know, wait,
a double episode.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
It Yeah, I hope that didn't take too too long, Guys.
I tried to be a little bit brief. I didn't
include every single piece of dialogue because I was trying
to get through two. Uh no, you got all the creeps,
the yeah, the creepy highlights. Well let's go. Let's go
to the most famous case of our generation. All right,

(01:22:44):
So this is obviously Robert Durst. I mean, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
Yeah, it changed everything, and I feel like, I'm sure
it's lots of different en elements, but this is what
I think pushed a true crime documentary series. Everyone's chasing
this high and that's why they stretch them out, like
they're just stretching them out, hoping like maybe, well maybe
there'll be an end. And most of them pale short

(01:23:07):
in comparison, or yeah, they paale like comparison. Yeah, they
come up short. Both both work.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
Yeah, I mean they're pale and short. Yeah, just like
Carl Rudnick, a delicate pale man. They just like I
bet you knew, like crime docs now are like hiring
people that specifically listen to like every single second of tape,
you know what I mean, Like because this is a
wild one. It is and I feel like everyone wants

(01:23:34):
to catch someone on camera.

Speaker 4 (01:23:36):
It's so bad.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):
Yeah, so yeah, you know, the Jinks was huge and
now the Jinks too just came out this year.

Speaker 4 (01:23:44):
Oh I got to watch there's a whole new sere.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
Yeah, I have not watched yet, but it's about like
try like trial posts, all the jail stuff kind of
and I am so it's so funny that he another
one happened.

Speaker 4 (01:23:55):
But if you're wondering, like why did this?

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
So for those who don't know, Robert or is like
comes from a billionaire real estate scion New York family,
like billions eight billion dollars. I think the family was
worth who So to me, it's like, all right, you've
you've murdered all these people, You've gotten away with it.
You're on the lamb. But like, why are you agreeing
to this doc? Like why would you agree to this
doc at all? You've gotten away with You've gotten away.

(01:24:21):
I'll get into details.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
So the reason he did the documentary is because in
twenty ten, I don't know if you know this. But
Ryan Gosling played a fictionalized version of Durst with Kristen
Dunst plays Kathy his you know, uh sadly murdered wife.

Speaker 4 (01:24:34):
And I watched part of it on a plane. Crazy.
I didn't even heard of it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
It was yeah, it was like I it like I
landed before it was over. But like I watched part
of it on a plane and was like, oh interesting.
So then so the movie, so it's them, and it's
Mark and Katie in it, but it's like it's clearly
Kathy and like Robert Durst, and so he wanted to
get his point of the story.

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):
He didn't like it, so he didn't like the Hollywood
got to tell his story. There's too It's like People
Magazine said that he didn't like the way he came off,
so he was like, I need to do this doc
But according to New York New York Times, he actually
liked the movie and he reached out to the same director.
So Andrew Jureki, who directed this Gostling thing, did the documentaries.
So Robert Durst reached out to him, And.

Speaker 1 (01:25:19):
The two sources right are.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
It's either he didn't like his portrayal and was like,
I'm gonna set things straight, or he's like I like
this guy, I like what he did here.

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
I'm gonna I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):
Gonna tell my story and set things straight. Like I'm
not really sure, and this is gonna be a precedent.
Like I was really nervous to kind of dive into
this because it's such a huge case. There's so much
information and none of you know, he's the dates are tough,
everything's intertwined and all the sources are like it happened
on Octube B eight, the no October ninth or this
and not. So there's just like a lot of inconsistencies

(01:25:52):
and just.

Speaker 4 (01:25:53):
Changing itself and you know a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
Yeah, so it's tough to like kind of report on
something that a lot of you probably Yeah, I have
already seen the part two of the Jinks.

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
Yes, we want to hear the way you tell it, though,
you know, because like, honestly, we don't have a six
hour documentary time to go through this case or we
would give you that information.

Speaker 4 (01:26:13):
We got to cut this shit down.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
I know, it was like, but it's just, you know,
it's intimidating and overwhelming, and I you know, like to
do a good job.

Speaker 4 (01:26:20):
But I'm not basing any of this on the jinks.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
I did all research, like okay, but research because anyone
can go watch that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:27):
Yeah, yeah, and so.

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
But Robert Durst gave this documentary crew everything, access to
his private papers. He urged friends to talk to the
crew and gave them more than twenty hours of filmed interviews.
He actually even for the movie with Ryan Gosling. He
offered a commentary track on the DVD release.

Speaker 4 (01:26:45):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
And he doesn't confess, but he goes he he like,
he goes, oh, yeah, we did get into a fight
that night. I dragged her by her hair and hit
her and she left, but I didn't kill her. Like
he agrees to some that's happening.

Speaker 4 (01:27:01):
Oh my god. He admits to.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
Like being a bad guy but not being a killer. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:27:06):
Wild.

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
Yeah, So he did a DVD thing. So we're going
all the way a way. You can get a DVD
of All Good Things and you can hear commentary by
Robert Durs.

Speaker 4 (01:27:18):
Maybe we can find it that's he recorded it in.
Yeah that's wild, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
Yeah, in this case, it's just like it's so sad,
it was so long ago. Okay, So January thirty first,
nineteen eighty two, Kathy McCormick vanishes at the age of
twenty nine. And this is the night that she attended
a party at her friend's house GILBERTA great name, GILBERTA
and a Jimmy okay, and she said something chilling to
her friend before she drove home in her Mercedes Benz.

(01:27:45):
She said, promise me, Gilberta, if something happens, you will
check it out. I'm afraid of what Bobby will do.
And that's according to the New York Times, and that's
nothing new. I feel like women are always like, if
something happens, it's him, and.

Speaker 3 (01:27:56):
They have that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
In an episode, Lena goes, if something happens to me,
Carl did it borrowing a lot?

Speaker 4 (01:28:01):
So I mean so much.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
Yeah, But because I see Rudnick as such a like
favorite character, I forget that it is that like I
always kind of lose sight of it until you were
like telling it directly to me and I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:28:17):
Like, oh fuck, this is exact.

Speaker 2 (01:28:19):
So once she disappears, all eyes are on the husband,
this Robert Durst, and they own all these skyscrapers.

Speaker 4 (01:28:25):
Rich guy, rich guy.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
He works for his family for twenty years, but left
the company in nineteen ninety four when it became clear
that his younger brother Douglas would take over. Robert's the oldest.
And this is very Succession as well.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
Like I know people say it's the Murdos, but I
feel like this family was also an inspiration for Succession. Okay,
and also the red Stones too, don't they in a
red Stone I feel like they were in spo for
it all as wellll which I covered on this podcast.
I'm pretty positive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He ate really crazy,

(01:28:56):
That's what I remember that people I called him the monster,
and he like just like was a disgusting eater.

Speaker 4 (01:29:03):
That's what I think about.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
They were married Kathy and Robert for nine years after
meeting in the fall of nineteen seventy one and moving
in together quickly January of nineteen seventy two, already moved in.
And this is another thing with rich people, there's less consequences,
so divorce doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (01:29:21):
Like you can get married quick.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
And that's again shown in Succession with Rory Culkins character
or Karen my bad.

Speaker 4 (01:29:28):
I know all the Culkins.

Speaker 2 (01:29:31):
So she was from a lower middle class family on
Long Island. He's like a richie rich and they had
a luxurious life, but he also was kind of cheap
and like didn't live that extravagantly. He also did for
sort of an abortion, and that's when the marriage descended
into fighting, affairs and violence, and he said they got
into an argument and she left their country home for

(01:29:52):
their New York City apartment. So that's things. She came
to the country home, she wanted to be in the city.
They fight, she leaves five days later is when he
reports her missing, and the investigators obviously fuck up because
they only searched Manhattan because he was like, oh, she
went back to Manhattan and disappeared, so they never even
searched their country home, so he could have cleared, like
there could have been evidence in that home, and no

(01:30:13):
one searched it. They just like are like, oh, I
guess she disappeared from her apartment.

Speaker 4 (01:30:17):
It was sad.

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):
She was months away from graduating medical school. And he eventually,
did you know, like I said, admitted that the fight
got physical. He pushed and shoved her, but did not
kill her. Their marriage was crumbling and so like divorce
lawyers were reached out to the marriage is flopping.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):
Things aren't doing well, marriages, flopping court records and for
seeing there's like, you know, who's going to get control
of real estate?

Speaker 4 (01:30:40):
And friends and family said that, you know, he did beat.

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Her, and three weeks before she disappeared, he punched her
and she didn't trust the husband and two friends told
investigators that she had given them confidential information about Durst
holdings for safe keeping during the estrangement. Those files were
later stolen from those people's homes and robberies that occurred
within a year of the disappearance.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
Whoa like, he's on it, dude. Her neighbor Ruth C.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
Mayer told The New York Times she was gorgeous, smart,
very sweet, and everybody loved her on the block. And yeah,
very very sad, and we'll talk more about everything.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
So then he.

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
Remarried a woman named Deborah Lee Sheraton, and she was
a real estate broker and she was with.

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
Him until the end.

Speaker 4 (01:31:21):
Whow all the way till the end.

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
So now this next person, So in two thousand, Durst's
best friend was found.

Speaker 1 (01:31:28):
Do you think about Fred Durst every time I say Durst, yep, yep,
And every time I try to talk about this case,
sometimes I say Fred Durst. People are like, oh really, dude,
h corn is it corn biscuit? Yeah, like corn lumbiscuit
committed a crime. And I'm like, okay, I'm sorry Robert Durst. Yeah,
she did it all for the NIKI.

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):
In two thousands, best friend was found dead, and of
course Robert is a suspect, so Susan Berman is his
longtime friend. And actually it was like this helper folks person,
an accomplice to Kathy's fucking missing and murder.

Speaker 4 (01:32:03):
She's she's a pick me, she's about her. I bet
she was in love with him.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
Sorry, like I so anyways, like to the point where
Robert Durst gave this woman away at her wedding in
nineteen eighty four. Key, that's how fucking close they were.
He gave her thousands of dollars whenever she needed it.
And she was found dead on Christmas Eve two thousand
after having been shot execution.

Speaker 4 (01:32:25):
Style in her la home.

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):
And like Beverly Hills, her neighbor reported the to authorities
that her dogs were loose in the yard, the door
was open, and when the police arrived, they were like, oh,
there's no fourth century or signs of ransacking or a struggle,
her purses here, her id, her cash was sitting on
the kitchen counter, Like, this is not a stranger.

Speaker 1 (01:32:44):
She let this person in. There's not a struggle, there's
not a five.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
Like, there was nothing leading it, so you can assume
it's someone that she knew. Possible motive was that the
police were planning to speak to Berman about her knowledge
in Kathy's disappearance. So like Kathy's family never gave up
on because her body has never been found ever, and
that's why he's such a monster, like being caught and
everything obviously is a monster, is a murderer, but also

(01:33:08):
just like tell.

Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
Us where the body is, Yeah, but a lot of
woods out in Westchester.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
Yeah, but you know, it's been so many decades, it's sad.
So like her family, though, never gave up on it.
He was always a suspect. And so they were getting
more and more evidence and they were going to talk
to Berman. And so the prosecution believes that Berman helped
Durst cover up Kathy's death by posing as the dead
woman on a phone call and calling out of class

(01:33:35):
like she missed class, she missed medical school. She was
finishing up medical school, and so someone came back to
that apartment in Manhattan that night and made the call
saying she's not going to make it to class, and they.

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
Believe it's burta set her up back in the city
so that he's totally off. Yeah, and so then he
killed her to make sure the secret didn't get out.

Speaker 4 (01:33:55):
And she's just such a pick me.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
I bet there.

Speaker 4 (01:33:56):
I guess their friendship wasn't that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:00):
I mean, like if he gave her away all this stuff, like,
why would he think she would.

Speaker 4 (01:34:03):
Give it out? Give it up?

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
You just want to be sure, Yeah, yeah, we just
don't care. He doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
Actually, you can't be You're right, you can't be friends
with associated. Yeah yeah, yeah, you're totally right. Like I
bet she thought they were real friend She put her
life on the line until she opened the door that day. Yeah,
And so her endorsed arranged interviews and told police and
reporters around the city after Kathy disappeared that she's a
drug addict, she's flunking out of medical school like all
these lives, But school officials and academic records say that's

(01:34:31):
not true, Like she was doing great at school. She
also pretended to be her so it's not just calls,
but like the elevator operator was like, oh yeah, I
saw Kathy that day and then was like, wait, that
wasn't Kathy. So this woman went to the building with
like you know, sublass whatever and.

Speaker 1 (01:34:47):
Pretended to be Kathy.

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
And this is sort of prosecution like this is according
to the prosecution.

Speaker 4 (01:34:51):
This has not been yeah proven in core.

Speaker 2 (01:34:53):
I mean she's dead, So dr'st defense attorney's like this
is bullshit. This is all taken from this fictional movie.
This is all speculation, bad investigation. This is Hollywood, Like
this isn't real, but I'm sorry. Like, like an article said,
so you watched this movie, you reached out to the director,
you did commentary, you made a documentary, and now the
lawyers are saying it's all hollywood and made up, like

(01:35:15):
you chased this, you know, Like I okay, but his
lawyers really knew how to dance, you know, tap dance.
So his name is Dick de Gourin, and to the
New York Times, he said that the documentary was really
an effort to trap Bob into saying something that would
seem to incriminate him. Okay, like these lawyers when he

(01:35:35):
reached out, it's like the BTK.

Speaker 1 (01:35:38):
He could have been he'd still be out. They were
not going to find BTK. He wrote a letter to
the police, and that's how they found him. Like these
guys are cocky, they have kubris, you know. So.

Speaker 2 (01:35:49):
But on December twenty third, two thousand, because she was
found on Christmas Eve. But on the twenty third, somebody
mailed the Beverly Hills Police department a single sheet of
spiral notebook paper and across it it had like an
address and in big block letters that said cadaver and
so the and the address belonged to Susan Berman, who
was shot and killed in her home, you know, the

(01:36:10):
same day the note was sent. So the police then
found the body the next day. And in the Jings documentary,
he said that the note. According to The New York Times,
he quotes said the writer of the note had taken
a big risk because it was something that only the
killer could have written.

Speaker 1 (01:36:25):
Yeah, and somebody that I know, we do think he's
a sociopath, but maybe had some kind of care for her,
because you wanted that body found quickly. Yeah, he didn't
want her.

Speaker 4 (01:36:34):
To like rot.

Speaker 1 (01:36:35):
Yeah, he didn't want the dogs to get She was single.
And living alone, Like, yes, she would have been found
not for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:36:42):
Yeah, And I mean Christmas break, people are on vacation.
You assume people are out. It's the dog, I mean
the dogs help.

Speaker 3 (01:36:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36:47):
But then also the neighbors did call authorities some kind
of confused.

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
Yeah, like as that's what I mean. There's just like
a lot of inconsistencies when there's so much information. Maybe
it's like, Okay, the dogs are loose, we'll get to it.
And then they get the cadaver and they're like, let's
head over there, you know, like that sort of seems
that is true. It is the lapd right, it's La
right yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
Yeah, and Beverly Hills, and I feel like Beverly Hills,
they're a Beverly Hills police. Well no, So I went
to my friends showing Beverly Hills and it is just
like it feels so Republican. It's like so separate from
all of LA Like it is such a different vibe.

Speaker 1 (01:37:20):
My friend at Drag Race was telling me how he
was in his apartment in Beverly Hills. He's lived there
for years, like in an apartment building, and he's like
I woke up in the night and there was a
guy in my apartment and he was like, I was panicked,
but like I think he just thought the guy was
there to rob him and didn't realize he was home,
so he kind of was like hey, and the guy
ran or whatever. He called the police and said that

(01:37:41):
the Beverly Hills police were so nice. They made sure
he was okay, they followed up with him all the time.
I was like, that's what money gets you, Like the
taxpayers of Beverly Hills are paying for that police department,
you know, Like he was like they are. But then like,
my friend just got robbed in Larchmont. She said the
policemen really great in helping her. And I'm like, wow,

(01:38:02):
but large one is rich too. Yeah, I know, but
like I don't think it works yell because remember and
also if you're well known, you're gonna talk shit about
the police.

Speaker 2 (01:38:11):
Oh but also with SVU, we're always like, how do
all the rich people how are they all friends with
the police commissioner? And this is why it's like I
have all these assets, are like I need us close
my street down from my daughter's bought mitzv or whatever
valet I want to do at any time but like
all of their events, their houses, their security, they're if

(01:38:32):
someone gets married, they're hiring all their dominating to like
the pals. So it totally makes sense because we've always
been like why how does every rich person friend at
the police. But it makes sense because even in succession,
someone commits a crime in the family and covered up,
covered up immediately. That's there's not even a question. They're
not even like nervous a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:38:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
Nuts, but like and then the perfect couple. It's like
there's an old Michael Beach plays like a cop who's
been on the island forever, and he's like, you have
to treat the rich people like they're your friends and buddies,
or they'll start like putting their guards up and like
not like they'll fuck with us because the newer cop
wants to, like, you know, really push around, and he's like,
that's not how this town works, Like you have to

(01:39:19):
canoodle with the rich. So they participate because they want
they like feeling like, oh, this is my buddy. Yeah,
like I'm a regular girl or whatever. I don't know,
I'll call my friend at the precinct.

Speaker 1 (01:39:31):
Yeah. It's always like, don't make me call the police commissioner,
Captain Craigan. You know, that's always what's going on on
the show.

Speaker 2 (01:39:39):
Yeah, okay, So back to this letter. So for a
while they were like, deny, deny, deny.

Speaker 1 (01:39:43):
He didn't write it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
And then finally on Christmas Eve, for some reason, the
lawyers are still working and they they let the document
in his evidence, and they did say that he was
the author of it, and the producers of the doc
found even more evidence.

Speaker 1 (01:39:57):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:39:57):
So a letter he wrote to Burman in nineteen ninety nine,
he misspelled Beverly Hills. He added e y at the end,
and the letter he wrote to the police department he did.

Speaker 4 (01:40:08):
E y with the Beverly Hills cadab or not.

Speaker 1 (01:40:11):
So that's you know, circumstantial, but pretty good, pretty good.
And his friends anonymously told The New York Times that
he told them that he went to her house on
the twenty third, saw her dead body, didn't want the
dogs to gnaw on her. But he knew no one
would think that it was like he was being innocent,
so he couldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
Actually like have called and been there, but he just
saw that she was dead Jesus. But they also did
end up finding a nine millimeter handgun in his car
and it's the same caliber used to shoot Berman.

Speaker 1 (01:40:41):
Oh my god, he couldn't ditch the gun. It's like
he's the stupidest rich person alive.

Speaker 2 (01:40:46):
Well you just think nothing, like get the gun, grab
the purse, make it look like an accident.

Speaker 1 (01:40:51):
Throw the person a dumpster somewhere, you know, like make
it look like a robbery, is what I meant to say.

Speaker 2 (01:40:57):
Yeah, you know, but also like yeah, whatever, so cut too.
So that's two thousand whatever, nothing ever happens, like always,
time goes by.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
So then in two thousand and one, he's living in
Texas wildly right, and his neighbor in this in Galveston
is found drifting.

Speaker 2 (01:41:20):
So body parts of this neighbor. The head was never found,
but bunches of this guy was floating in the Galveston Bay.
A thirteen year old boy was fishing in the bay
and discovered the headless Torso on September twenty eighth, two
thousand and one.

Speaker 4 (01:41:33):
And well, I.

Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
Wonder if this is also another reason we didn't hear
about this at the time, another nine to eleven shadow crime.
You know, it was like two weeks ten days after
nine a art like you know, eleven.

Speaker 2 (01:41:46):
And the body was found in pieces on September thirtieth,
two thousand and one, at and the guy was seventy
one years old.

Speaker 4 (01:41:53):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:41:54):
Well that's so interesting because I wonder if it's like
with Trump or like New Yorkers knew these people and
hated them, like New Yorkers knew they were troublemakers.

Speaker 4 (01:42:03):
And it was New York News but not other places.

Speaker 1 (01:42:06):
Yeah, because this guy didn't seem like even though he
was very rich, like he wasn't running in those circles
and like he wasn't kouth, you know, he didn't have
the manners and like the charm.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
No, and he's he was cheap, like they lived in
smaller Like he wasn't extravagant.

Speaker 4 (01:42:19):
It's not like he was flashy. So the police in.

Speaker 2 (01:42:25):
Like in his car or whatever, they found receipts from
a hardware store where he bought a bosaw and other
items and like just a bunch of stuff and a
newspaper and a gun, okay so, and then in the
trash can behind the house on Avenue k And in Texas,
they found a twenty two caliber handgun which Durst purchased
at a sporting goods store in Houston on August thirtieth.

(01:42:45):
There was also blood in the hallway of the apartments,
and inside Durst's apartment there was blood and a bloody knife.
The neighbors sold police that he was seen loading bags
into the back of a silver car. So the police
zeroed in on the like so they the body parts
and they're zeroing in on this neighbor that like, you know,
the trash bags are happening, the bloods, like they have

(01:43:06):
to find who this person is. And people said that
they were like fighting all the time, what's going on?
And then they realized that the neighbor Durst, is living
undercover as a mute woman. Yeah, so he's using a
name of an old classmate, Dorothy's signer to rent the apartment.
And like I said, this guy is an air to
like billions of dollars and he's living in a three

(01:43:28):
hundred dollars a month apartment next to this other guy,
like really really cheap, cheaply. But to get these apartments
with all these aliases and like all these games he
was playing because he had places all over he would
pay like six months in advance a you're in advance,
like it beant nothing.

Speaker 4 (01:43:45):
And I have actually.

Speaker 2 (01:43:46):
Wildly did this once too, because sometimes real estate people
don't trust you if you don't have a regular job.
So you're like, I'll pay six months. Yeah, but this
ended up being my carbon monoxide home. But like, yeah,
I like paid it off and then it ended up
being a nightmare because you have no leverage when they
don't do things right because they have all the money.

Speaker 4 (01:44:04):
Yeah yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (01:44:05):
I was just like I'd never gotten in a part
like I think LA was the first time I got
a normal apartment, Like I've always just been in a
shady situation. So they have to find him, and he's
like all over the place. There's lots of calls, like
he has places in San Francisco, he has luxury buildings
in Dallas, like he could truly go anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:44:24):
But he ended up getting arrested.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25):
So he got arrested on October ninth of that year,
and he was able to post the two hundred and
fifty thousand dollars bond and he was found in a
Holiday and Express in Texas using a fake name. So
so he leaves and the thing is Texas just said
that they didn't realize that he came from money like
that it was a mistake and they didn't realize he

(01:44:46):
was wealthy.

Speaker 4 (01:44:47):
Okay, But then later.

Speaker 2 (01:44:49):
When they made the bail like four billion dollars, the
Supreme Court or something said it was unlawful and it
was not appropriate and they had to lower it. And
I'm like, but why is he getting bond or bailife?
Why I just say no bail than do four billions?
He's chopping up, But he won in court. They were like,
this is not fair, and they like had to lower
the cost. So it's like they either it's like two

(01:45:11):
hundred fifty grand and he can pay for it and
it's fine, or it was like illegal to be as
much as it was. But I don't understand. There's body
parts floating in a river, he's dressed as a woman,
there's aliases. I don't understand why he would have to
be released at all.

Speaker 1 (01:45:26):
This is it's one of the wildest stories of all time,
it really is.

Speaker 2 (01:45:29):
But it's just money, right, Yeah. Like So anyway, so
he leaves bond and he's on the lamb for two months.
He's not found for forty five fucking days, and so
the next court date he was supposed to be in
was October sixteenth, and so like press comes people, media photographers,
everyone's gathered up at court to see if he's going
to show up. People came from New York, California. He's
wanted everywhere. There's a murder everywhere by this man. And yeah,

(01:45:54):
he didn't show up. So he didn't show up. So
now you know, a manhunt needed to happen, and it
had to be wide because he has all this property
everywhere and money and assets and planes, and like my
thing is, why don't.

Speaker 4 (01:46:05):
You take a jet to a different country? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:46:09):
Yeah, where they don't extra date?

Speaker 3 (01:46:11):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:46:11):
It feels like, give you this guy kind of wanted
to be caught in a way I don't know. But
he's obviously aloner. Like why wouldn't you just get a plane,
I know, get a plane and leave. Yeah, where do
they not extra dte plenty of places? Who care?

Speaker 2 (01:46:22):
They wouldn't have been able to find him. He could
have gone somewhere and then like went lived off of
cash for the road. Yeah, Like I don't understand you're
doing all of this, but it's still like like he
went to Atlantic City, Like it's just like what so anyway,
so he's zooming away and when they ended up finding him,
he did have, you know, his murdered neighbors driver's license
with them in medicare card, hit his medicare card. So

(01:46:44):
he's going all over the place. It's a nationwide manhunt.

Speaker 4 (01:46:47):
Like I said.

Speaker 2 (01:46:47):
And he ended up driving to like New Orleans and Alabama,
and then he went to old haunts so like Connecticut,
places that he met his wife, college, Atlantic City, like
he was just kind of taking a road trip. So
then in Pennsylvania he's finally caught up because he was
stealing a sandwich and that's when he was charged with
blacks murder. This was at a Wegmans off Route five

(01:47:10):
twelve near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. He got a chicken salad hero
sandwich with roasted peppers for five ninety nine, stole it.

Speaker 1 (01:47:16):
Yeah. Do you know every time I think of Wegmans,
I think of this because Wegmans like wasn't in my light.
My sister loved Wegmans in college. And then when this
came out, I was like Robert Durst at a Wegmans,
like Caitlin, we were like we were obsessed. And then
now It's like when whenever you're like, oh I went
to Wegmans, I'm like Robert Durst there, like I always
think about it.

Speaker 4 (01:47:33):
It's late forever for me.

Speaker 2 (01:47:34):
Well, the reason the employee was tipped was he the
employees saw him take one band aid out of a
box of band aids and use it, and so he
followed him around. So he took a newspaper and a sandwich,
was just going to walk out, so they fucking.

Speaker 1 (01:47:47):
Got his ass. So makes no sense. I know, it's confusing.
You have all these shady behavior. It's throw twenty dollars
on the ground and walk out like you could have
gotten away with that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:58):
It's wild. But you know sometimes peoplen' think of it,
you know, they like they don't. They just walk around
like nothing matters in any way.

Speaker 1 (01:48:04):
So that's how they fucking finally got him and brought
him back down to do the trial.

Speaker 4 (01:48:10):
But guess what, he's acquitted. Of course, he's acquidted.

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):
He's found with this man's ID Medicare card, he's dressed
like a woman next to him, like there's blood in
his apartment, all of this stuff, and he's fucking acquitted.
The Texas jury believed Durst's claims that he killed this
guy in self defense and disposed of the body in
a panic, and there's no specifics, like, it's just they

(01:48:35):
both reached for the gun, like that is it. And
he's like, yeah, we both reached for the gun after
a fight and it blew off his head and that's that. Yeah,
And the jury's like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, No,
he didn't kill him, He just dismembered his body. I
think it's fine, right, this man's safe to be out
and about, like self defense for what. He had four
hours of testimony at the Galveston County Courthouse, and according

(01:48:58):
to The New York Times, he said, and I kept
going over the situation in my mind, Morris was shot
in the face with my gun in my apartment that
I rented, disguised as a woman. I just didn't think
that anyone would ever believe me. Well they did, They
somehow fucking did. Over the next eighteen hours, he testified
that he sought off mister Black's head, arm legs, wrapped

(01:49:19):
the torsto and body parts and plastic bags, drove down
to the pier, admitted to all of this that like
he dumped it. He said everything and he was just like, yeah,
I just didn't know what to do. And Prosecution's like,
this is bullshit. He's way more cold and calculated. He
took very shrewd steps to evade detection. It was a
forty five day nationwide man high, Like this guy isn't

(01:49:39):
just like a bumbling idiot who accidentally shot this guy's
head off.

Speaker 1 (01:49:43):
And then it's like most people, I would say most
people that would just like, you accidentally kill someone and
you're like, they're never gonna believe me. You like wrap
the body up in a carpet, you try to go
bury it somewhere. You're not dismembering it into small parts.

Speaker 4 (01:49:59):
I would not be able to to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
I would rather go to jail than do that, to
be honest, than to chop up a body. Yeah, but
we also learned from Breaking Bad. You could use the acid, sure,
but the acid fell through the apartment below.

Speaker 2 (01:50:09):
Yeah, but that's because he didn't listen to the directions
that Brian Cranston gave him. He said to do it
in a rubber maid, and he didn't listen and did
it in the tub. And like their science, Yeah, he's
the chemistry teacher. Someone was telling her part that Breaking
Bad is so accurate because Vince Gilligan was like he
didn't want any fucking nerds to be like, well, blah

(01:50:30):
blah blah, everything was proven, so he'd be like, actually, no,
and they had experiments and they had just like all
of this evidence for anything, so no fucking nerd can
like poke a hole in all.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
Yeah, good for you. He's like, no one's gonna actually me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:50:47):
But he did plead guilty to bond jumping and evidence
tampering and to the disposal of the body, so he
got so he pled guilty to tampering with the dead body,
but not.

Speaker 1 (01:50:58):
The murder, killing the body, so dismembering him. But he
got five years. You got something. And there's literally no
other leads on anyone else that could do this, Like
no one has access to the apartment, no one else's
DNA or hair was found.

Speaker 4 (01:51:11):
Like this is it's it's so crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:51:15):
So when the HBO docuseries started, like the goal an
effort was to uncover his connection to these crimes, like
everyone thought he was guilty and that was it. So
it starts airing February of twenty fifteen, and you know
that is the famous confession the last episode over a
hot Mike. What the hell did I? So he goes
he's in the bathroom. He's like, Washington, I don't remember

(01:51:37):
where he was in the bathroom at this point, but
he still makes up. And that's what fucked, because when
you go to the bathroom, the mike wire does move
and it's going. I was listening to an interview with
Sidney Sweeney talking about all her like costumes throughout all
the shows she's done, and I think it was for
Handmaid's Tale or it was the Covenant one. But the
costume director is so amazing the costume designer that she

(01:51:58):
sews in wires into all of the outfits in the
seam with a pocket, so you just have to put
a battery in and plug it and that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:52:05):
The wire is so into the garment. So smart.

Speaker 2 (01:52:09):
That's one of this, like, hey, I do mind if
I get in there? Like no, you have to have
it in between your thoughts or hanging or whatever. Like
it's just in the clothes. And that is why more
women need to be in charge of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:52:20):
Yeah smart, Like every sound guy is just like digging
into your body, your tights and like what the fuck
when you could, in theory be sewing the wires in
the costumes.

Speaker 4 (01:52:32):
Yeah, that's so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:52:34):
Anyway, So he has this cool you know the mic
on he goes, what the hell did I do?

Speaker 1 (01:52:39):
Killed them? All?

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):
Of course changed everything. So March fourteenth, twenty fifteen, he's
arrested for Burman's murder. And this was the night before
the finale of The Jinx aired on March fifteenth, twenty fifteen.

Speaker 1 (01:52:52):
I remember this. I mean it was like the internet
was on fire. But did you watch Chimp Crazy? Oh?
Not yet?

Speaker 4 (01:53:00):
I started. I started it and then something.

Speaker 1 (01:53:02):
No, it's fine. They're just like ethics in terms of like,
so something's going on, and they're like, what are the
ethics involved of us continuing the documentary versus us having
to tell the authorities what's happening?

Speaker 2 (01:53:11):
Yeah, And I am curious about this, like did they
film it all and tell them right away?

Speaker 1 (01:53:17):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:53:17):
Because you got to like did they tell him on
the thirteenth? Like I want to know the when the
documentarians let the police in on the evidence.

Speaker 4 (01:53:27):
I think they must have let them know before this aired.

Speaker 2 (01:53:31):
Sure, but not but before the first episode aired or
before the last episode aired.

Speaker 1 (01:53:36):
With the confession. It must have been done when it
started airing, right, sure, But they didn't arrest the until
the day before the finale aired. So where was he?
I don't know, Like what what are what? What? You
just let a killer run around town?

Speaker 4 (01:53:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:53:52):
I remember reading about this though, like they didn't find
they didn't find it. They like added it in to
the final episode or something. So I think they told
the police as soon as possible. I don't think they
were sketchy.

Speaker 2 (01:54:06):
Yeah, but girl, it's been edited fully, Like why would
you arrest the day before it comes out they knew
before then?

Speaker 6 (01:54:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:54:15):
Or did the cops just want to do it for fun?
Like I just don't get it.

Speaker 4 (01:54:19):
Yeah, but whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:54:21):
Charged with first degree murder, the prosecutors alleged that he
killed Berman for knowing too much about the disappearance of
his wife. She helped conceal the truth for all those years,
and over one hundred people testified during that trial for decades.
You know, Durris lied and said he wasn't in La
at the time, but finally the.

Speaker 4 (01:54:38):
Attorney admitted that he was in La.

Speaker 2 (01:54:39):
He spent the holidays with her, but he found her
dead and that Bob showed up and you know panicked
and wrote the anonymous letter because he did care about her.

Speaker 1 (01:54:49):
But none of this matter.

Speaker 2 (01:54:50):
September seventeenth, twenty twenty one, Durst is convicted of Bermant's
deaths more than two decades after, so on October fourteenth,
he is sentenced to life in prison at seventy eight
years old.

Speaker 1 (01:55:03):
So he really got away with a lot of murders. Yeah,
for many decades.

Speaker 2 (01:55:08):
He was sentenced to life, and he tested positive for
COVID and died like days after, like a few days after.
I mean, yeah, dead, he wins. Oh, and this billionaire
guy wins even in death. In California, when a defendant
dies and the case is on appeal, the conviction is vacated. So,

(01:55:29):
despite being convicted by a jury because of his death,
Durst's conviction in the murder of Berman was vacated and
no longer stands, according to ABC News. So who's old
died of COVID in appeals and none of this is
on his leg. I mean he's a killer, and we
all know it's yeah, yeah, we all know he's a killer,
whether the law says it or not.

Speaker 1 (01:55:49):
And her family gets closure or whatever, But that is
that is why why you don't want to take someone's
reputation after death, just vacate and yeah, so but forth, Yeah,
body never found poor Kathy, but anyways, he's dead. He
killed all these people, and it was an electric time,

(01:56:11):
the Jinks time. Oh my god, we were all really
like just a little Google search though, which by the way,
all the top results now are AI, So I never
have any idea if anything's right or not. But it
seems like the Jinks people gave some evidence to the police,
it says twenty thirteen. But some people do think that
they held evidence to make the show more dramatic. They

(01:56:34):
withheld them were like, I mean, I guess they could
always just say like, oh, we didn't we didn't know,
we just we just found out here take it, and
then they could say that they were sliding the scene
into the finale because the timing is wild. The day before,
I remember the weekend was like running around in New
York and was like this, could not wait to get
home and watch the finale of the Jinks. Oh god,

(01:56:56):
I'm sick. We're all sick. We love watching this kind
of shit, but this the sickest. I mean, I want
to rewatch everything. I'm gonna watch Jinks Part two.

Speaker 3 (01:57:04):
Me.

Speaker 4 (01:57:05):
I'm early like I got to relive all of this.

Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
Honestly, let's watch Jinks Part two and chat about which
I think that's what this podcast is supposed to be
reliving it.

Speaker 4 (01:57:13):
But it's a busy time in our lives.

Speaker 1 (01:57:15):
Yeah, all right, let's get onto the interview because it's
a good one. Our guest today is a distinguished actor
who won a Best Actor Tony in two thousand and
four for the play I Am My Own Wife. He

(01:57:36):
was recently in Perry Mason and I Am the Knight.
But you know him if you're me, you know him
forever and always as the medical examiner turned serial killer
doctor Carl Rudnick. Please enjoy our conversation with the amazing
Jefferson mays Hi Jello.

Speaker 6 (01:57:52):
Hello, Cara, you're there. Oh there, you're visible.

Speaker 4 (01:57:57):
Love It so nice to meet you.

Speaker 6 (01:57:58):
It's lovely to meet you.

Speaker 1 (01:58:00):
I'm thrilled you look sharp. Is this how you regularly dress?

Speaker 6 (01:58:04):
I always dress up for podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:58:06):
Yeah, I love it's amazing. Well, we're thrilled to have
you here. Your character is unique.

Speaker 2 (01:58:17):
You know, we've we've never had anyone to be flipped
from the inside, and I don't know. So when you
got hired in season sixteen, did you know your full arc?

Speaker 1 (01:58:26):
Did you know how it was all going to end?
Or was that a surprise?

Speaker 6 (01:58:30):
That was a complete surprise to me, because I you
know i'd make done. I think I'd done a couple
of the derivatives, you know, the mothership and criminal intent,
you know, playing a hapless attorney, but I guess they're
all happless attorneys on't because they have to lose, and
and a head master of a public school. But this
is the first time I was approached by Warren Light

(01:58:52):
who asked me to come and be the duty emmy.
And I was in a state of euphoria. I thought,
my ship could find me, come in. This will be
years of work, episode upon episode. Some people have been
out it for like two hundred and sixty four episodes,
and I thought, my God traded Joe's for years and
a trip to Tuloom. And so I was thrilled, of course,

(01:59:14):
and I said, yes, I'll do it, and you know,
just a couple of do an expert testimony and an
autopsy and you're done. And so I did the first
two episodes, and I thought seems to be going well,
and Warren came sidling up to me and took me
by the elbow and said, can I talk to you
about your character? And I immediately felt the worst, being

(01:59:38):
an insecure actor, and he ushered me into a disused
chord or on the set and says, we've been thinking
about the arc and we think he might be a
serial killer. And this just hit me out of the blue,
and I thought part of me thought this is fantastic.
I love villains. But then the other part of me says, well,

(01:59:59):
this is going to be lived, because surely I can't
be killing people for five years. No, I'm discovered, So
I knew it was all coming to an end. And
then I tossed in turn that by thinking what sort
of vibe must I have been emanating in my first
two episodes? Because I thought I'm being an upstanding, hard
working public servant, But evidently I must have been exuding

(02:00:22):
some sort of some sort of malevolent, various vibe that
they picked up on and said let's let's get rid
of him. And then and then you said, have you
seen the Jinx, Yes, which is of course the documentary
about Robert Durst and all of his murderous antics. He

(02:00:42):
and I said, no, I'm aware of Robert Durst. And
you said, go home and watch the Jinks and then we'll,
you know, talk later. So that's how it began.

Speaker 1 (02:00:49):
Okay, So then when you watch the Jinks, what did
you think? Because that was a wild moment in television
that was happening.

Speaker 6 (02:00:56):
That was that was indeed, it was a compelling view.

Speaker 4 (02:01:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:01:00):
I remember my wife and I sort of lay in
bed and watched the entire thing and and I said, oh,
I don't I don't think I look like Robert Durrist.
I can be a simulate room of that. And it
was a fascinating tale. And as you know, they took
bits of it for the episode. I think there was
a scene of me sort of mumbling my confession into

(02:01:21):
a microphone on camera. Yes, that's how they that's how
they caught both of us.

Speaker 1 (02:01:26):
And the cross dressing, of course, of course, was the
cross dressing.

Speaker 6 (02:01:30):
Yes, yeah, And I don't think I looked any better
in women's clothes than he did. I was. That was
a revelation. I looked very homely in my various drag outfits.
I could send them to you do you want to see.
Can I send pictures of that?

Speaker 1 (02:01:46):
Oh? Yeah, we'd loved.

Speaker 6 (02:01:49):
I could send you an email or a text. Yeah,
I have them up here. But anyway, you've done it.

Speaker 4 (02:01:54):
You've done a ton of theater, You've done a ton
of acting. Had you ever dressed as a woman before
I had?

Speaker 6 (02:02:01):
I had. I spent over a year on Broadway as
a sixty five year old gay East German trans person. Oh,
Charlotte von Mahlsdorf and a one person show, so maybe
they got into that. Actually, that was my first Law
and Order audition ever, which was probably the most hideous
audition I ever had for anything, in which I was

(02:02:25):
called in to portray a share impersonator early in this century,
and if you look at me, I don't exactly radiate shareness.
And I went in. I was on my way to
a garden party, an engagement party in Westchester a friend,
and I was in a linen suit with a straw boater,
and I thought, I'll just stop vibe appears on my

(02:02:46):
way and do the audition and go up state. And
I walked into the room and of course everyone just
looked at me Ashman and said in the producer I
think said is this some sort of joke. I said, no,
I'm here to read for Sharonburs And then I read it,
and as with most traumatic experiences in my life, I

(02:03:07):
sort of went into a blackout state. So I don't
remember much about it. I just remember coming to drinking
gin and tonics up in Westchester.

Speaker 1 (02:03:16):
Well that's a pretty way to add, that's a pretty
good way to come out of a blackout. I would say, yeah,
you know, are you having a martini right now?

Speaker 6 (02:03:23):
I am not having a martini. This is a little
silvillen Blanc left over from lunch, a very very small glass.
It's one o'clock here. My martini arrives in three hours.

Speaker 4 (02:03:38):
Did you meet Warren through theater stuff or just.

Speaker 6 (02:03:42):
I knew him through the theater? Yes, he's just an
extraordinary playwright in his own right. I remember just encountering
and at Williamstown and various regional theaters where our paths crossed.
But that's that's one of the many splendid things, as
you know about law and orders, that they employed theater actors.
I think I'd go so far to say that support
us in our expensive habits. But they've been you know,

(02:04:05):
it's wonderful I don't think you can be a New
York theater actor and not appear on Law and Order
at some point, so de riguer I think they take
your cards away if you don't do it. A lot
of people have. A friend of mine had an idea
for their final season's finale just having under over the
credits with the credits at the last episode, like a

(02:04:25):
helicopter shot of all the actors who have never been
in a Law and Order running to the end of
the twenty third Street peer holding their head shots and
resumes and saying, wait, don't.

Speaker 4 (02:04:34):
Go, don't close.

Speaker 1 (02:04:37):
Oh my god, that's so funny. I was gonna say
rednecks iconic.

Speaker 2 (02:04:40):
You know, there's not very many serial killers on SVU.
It's usually one and done's do you get recognized around
New York?

Speaker 1 (02:04:49):
Do people really? I do? Yeah?

Speaker 6 (02:04:51):
And beyond New York. Yeah, it's probably the thing that
I'm most recognized for in very specific places, always like
airport bars. It seems to always happen.

Speaker 2 (02:05:01):
Well, I bet it's people that travel for work and
they watch it in hotels all the day.

Speaker 6 (02:05:04):
They just saw me five minutes, Yeah, on the back
of the seat in front of them, and yeah, and
then and ts a checkpoints, you know, which is always unsettling.
You know when they when a cup quasi cop brings
it up. Uh. And then there are and then there's
horrible moments, uh, like as the doors close on the
Uptown one train, someone screams murderer, you know, as the

(02:05:28):
train takes off. But but it's but it's it's kind
of it's kind of nice. And I always try to
tell people a much nicer life.

Speaker 1 (02:05:36):
Well, I've seen you, and I've seen you in other things.
I watched you in season one of Perry Mason, and
I've seen you in other things. But every time I
see you, I always just go, oh my god, there's Rudnick.
You know, I write, that's right.

Speaker 6 (02:05:47):
I was playing another medical examiner. Yes, in Perry Mason.
I seem to get that a lot. I'm always in
a white coat with a bone saw.

Speaker 4 (02:05:55):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (02:05:55):
And then I noticed that also you were in. So
I didn't actually watched this show I am the Knight,
but I watched the Company. I listened to the accompanying
podcast called The Root of Evil that was all about
doctor George Hodell, who you play. That's right in this
in this TNT limited series, I think yes, and he's
another like doctor who might be a serial killer.

Speaker 6 (02:06:17):
That's right, I'm sensing a pattern here. Yeah, yeah, it's
are They're hard roles to play. I mean you always
have to say, you know, words like exanguination, you know,
subarrachnoid hemorrhage of the right cerebrum, and I always have
a hard time committing those to memory.

Speaker 1 (02:06:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:06:36):
So if I'm very stressful to be trying to handle
a bone saw and take pictures of corps and then
rattle off what is to my nonsense scientific mind, utter gibberish,
you know, trying to make sense of it.

Speaker 2 (02:06:47):
Yeah, because that body, those body parts were intricate, I
feel in one of your Episodeseah, it's like she was
all hacked up and.

Speaker 6 (02:06:55):
Right member m h Yeah. My friend, my friend married Bacon,
bless her heart. It's always you always run into people
you know or have worked with either on the slab.
But yes, we had a bit of fun. I you know,
the whole arc of this character sort of blurs into

(02:07:15):
one long, complicated episode. I have a hard time thinking
of scenes and any sort of separately. But I found
Mary Bacon's severed head in the prompts departments, and then
I brought it on set with me and had it.
I was in the hospital bed recovering from my doctor
yates and flicted wounds, and I had her sort of

(02:07:36):
cuddled under my chin and rocking. I sent a picture
of it to Marry and she never wrote backs. I'm
not sure how it went, how it went down?

Speaker 1 (02:07:46):
Oh my god?

Speaker 4 (02:07:47):
And did you know Dallas Roberts.

Speaker 6 (02:07:49):
Yes, yes, I've known Dallas.

Speaker 2 (02:07:51):
Yeah, you guys have a nice little creepy dynamic frenemies.

Speaker 6 (02:07:55):
Yes, you cannot have anything but a creepy dynamic with
Dallas Roberts.

Speaker 4 (02:08:00):
We had him on the podcast.

Speaker 1 (02:08:01):
We loved really.

Speaker 6 (02:08:02):
Yeah, he's gorgeous. Yeah, he's wonderful, wonderful after and it
was fun to be with him in prison.

Speaker 1 (02:08:09):
I think it was, yeah, bringing you back because like
after yours, you know, you could have been gone forever
after they catch you, but then they have your prison
escape and you guys are unlikely likely sort of prison buddies,
but also an evil.

Speaker 4 (02:08:26):
Who do you think is more danger? He's probably he's worse.

Speaker 6 (02:08:29):
Than obviously one. Yeah, I think, yes, I think I
think Rudnick, for all of his evils, has a clickering
of the soul of some kind and yeah, but but
as I recall, Dallas beat me almost to death with
a hammer or something. I don't know. I just remember
my legs shattered, lying in the bilge of a of
a cabin cruiser in the dead of winter. I think

(02:08:51):
that's how they found me.

Speaker 4 (02:08:52):
You got to do a lot of you. You know,
they set it up in the in the.

Speaker 1 (02:08:56):
Sort of the two episode arc they had, they set
up you and Peter Scanavino's character really kind of hitting
it off, like he's like he's like he's like, even
after I transported the guy all the way back to
New York, I kind of miss him, like he misses
your character.

Speaker 6 (02:09:11):
Though, I think that that was intentional they I mean,
he's such a lovely fellow, Peter, Peter and Kelly's a
lovely fellow. Yeah, but you know, Warren said, we wanted
to echo or pay homage to that film Midnight Run.
Do you remember that with Charles Groden, Yeah, and Robert
de Niro, And they're an unlikely pair. I think Robert

(02:09:34):
de Niro is a bounty hunter bringing Charles Groden in
and char and there's a sweet scene in a restaurant
I think where Charles Groden is worried about Robert de
Niro's eating habits and says, you really better lay off.
Oh yeah, red meat. It's just maybe a sweater in
your colon. Yeah. So so that was a little echo

(02:09:56):
to that lovely film.

Speaker 4 (02:09:57):
Oh interesting, that's cute. I also you have one of
the things that I feel as lucky.

Speaker 2 (02:10:05):
There's like newspaper articles about you, and you're on the
cover of all the newspapers. Did you steal any of
them with your photos?

Speaker 1 (02:10:11):
Oh damn it.

Speaker 6 (02:10:12):
No, someone sent one to me, you know, a New
York Post with me on the cover, And no, I never.
I didn't get that far into the props department. I
think I found Mary Bacon severed head. Yeah, and you
went running.

Speaker 1 (02:10:26):
Yeah did you?

Speaker 2 (02:10:27):
And you did photo shoots for that, and like your
mugshot and stuff.

Speaker 6 (02:10:30):
Is that fine? Yes? Yes it was. And I did
lots of drag.

Speaker 1 (02:10:35):
Shoots to yes, because your license and everything. Didn't you
have like a like a license where you had to be.

Speaker 6 (02:10:41):
Yes, oh yeah all that? Oh the yes, yeah, yeah,
you're you're a little badge. And I didn't steal that either.
I didn't steal anything, not even a floral print.

Speaker 4 (02:10:49):
Frog or a week, a little dress, a little.

Speaker 2 (02:10:52):
Numbers are there behind the scenes tidbits you feel we
would enjoy hearing from your time on set or our listeners.

Speaker 5 (02:11:03):
Oh gosh, I find my time in front of the
camera rather intense, you know, I, and it sort of
absorbs all of my concentration, especially getting those damn latex
gloves on and off.

Speaker 6 (02:11:17):
I think that they should have like a two week
workshop for every law and order medical examiner, because it's
extremely hard. I don't know if you have latex gloves
at home and you want to try it, but getting
them off in the medically approved way where you don't
want to bring the latex glove in contact with the skin,
you know, sort of have to pull it out gingerly
halfway down, bring the other one halfway down, work the

(02:11:39):
other one off. And doing that while selling gibberish is
just one of the greatest challenges I've ever faced in
my life. Mercifully, you don't have to put them on.
I tried that in a scene a couple of times,
and you invariably end with certain little flappy latex bits
at the end of your fingers. But yeah, it seems
that every scene begins with strip off a pair of

(02:12:00):
gloves and throw the throwing them into the bin, and
then you launch into incomprehensible, incomprehensible passage of medical gibb Bridge.
But back scenes. No, the Mary Bacon Sarah Head story
is the one that pops to mind. But uh, but uh,
but but no, I'm so sorry, because.

Speaker 2 (02:12:22):
Well it's it's totally okay, but it's really cool because
you know, you're on the stand for some you're a
get to be in the morgue, you're on the run,
and you really get to be everywhere, everywhere.

Speaker 6 (02:12:32):
I remember one in which, because you know, I was
still determined to get the lines correct, I had my
lines written on little index cards. I brought some sticky
tape and I put them inside the dock. So I'm
doing expert testimony, and every now and then my eye
can sort of maybe flick it down and I can
see the word that eludes me and come up with

(02:12:52):
it at the proper time. And then of course when
we do the turnaround, you know, the DP or cameraman
came up and said, you know, all of his little index.

Speaker 1 (02:13:00):
Cards, you can see them.

Speaker 6 (02:13:02):
So yeah, so I had to move them lower and mercifully,
I guess the cameras over my shoulders, so I was
able to get away with that little hack. But I
heard Sam Waterston did the same thing, uh of by
putting index cards on the backs of the busts and
or down on his desk, And I completely understand. I uh,

(02:13:24):
I think the clipboard is the medical examiner's friend because
you can write you know that that you know chest
wall of grasion and contusion on it and read it,
or you know, you have the confidence to know it's
there if you need it, so you always have a clip.

Speaker 4 (02:13:39):
In real life.

Speaker 1 (02:13:40):
I'm sure if you go to a medical examiner and
you say what happened you, no one is expecting them
to say it off the top of their head. I'm
sure they're all looking at a piece of paper and
reading off of them.

Speaker 6 (02:13:50):
Arah, I wish i'd told me that, heart, But I
think you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 (02:13:56):
I understand like the actor, because we've also spoken to Tamratuni,
who and a lot on that show for you know,
a decade three years, and she was saying that, you know,
she was like very interested in science and so she
knew a lot of like she you know, but I
still think rattling off a lot of findings off the

(02:14:16):
top of your head, it's impressive, but it certainly I
don't know if we I don't know if what's.

Speaker 4 (02:14:22):
What's going to happen in real life.

Speaker 2 (02:14:23):
No, but now I'm always gonna notice that I've always seen,
starting with the gloves being thrown.

Speaker 1 (02:14:29):
Yes, right now that you mentioned, I'm like.

Speaker 6 (02:14:32):
Oh, my punctuation latex. Glove throwing is punctuation.

Speaker 1 (02:14:35):
Yeah, it's like I am now done with my examining
and ready to speak. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:14:39):
Right, But I do not possess camera's scientific mind. I'm
not concrete sequential, so I would have to do these
stupid elaborate things like like like sub irachnoid. I'd see
the Beatle's yellow submarine arachnoid iraknd spider anoid spider like
humanoid a rack the lighter robot spider on top of

(02:15:02):
the Beatles yellow submarine hemorrhage with a black eye, you know.
So that would be the image in my mind when
I was saying the line.

Speaker 1 (02:15:11):
These little mnemonics that we come up.

Speaker 6 (02:15:13):
Yes, I'm so glad to share. Speaking of dead bodies,
I remember that I had a humble experience doing It's
not really a funny story at all. I was on
my way to set to do you know, to play
Rhynic before they discovered him, I think, and I got
word in the car that my dad had died, and

(02:15:35):
I just arrived, as you can imagine, utterly shaken and
bless his heart. Warren was just coming out and I
told him and he said, oh God, I'm so sorry
that let us know if there's anything we can do,
and I said thank you, And then I realized I
was spending the day in the morgue doing all tops
by dead bodies, and I don't remember much about that.

(02:15:58):
I think I did get the lines out, although I
think I did have to leave a post it wedged
under a body at one point. But but that was
that was. That was a strange day. But everyone on
the set, I remember, Raoul Asparza was just particularly lovely
to me. And yeah, they all carried me through and

(02:16:19):
put me in a car and sent me to the airport.

Speaker 4 (02:16:22):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:16:26):
Well, always, whenever I think about that, I think about
Vanessa Hudgens. Her dad died and then she had to
do Grease Live and so whenever, God, whatever I wanted
to answer, I think about that, and now I will
think about it.

Speaker 6 (02:16:37):
Yes, well, thank you for the folks. But yeah, no,
but everyone was just gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (02:16:43):
This is one of our classic questions, and we actually
have not asked it in months, but I feel compelled.

Speaker 4 (02:16:49):
What are your go to craft service snacks?

Speaker 6 (02:16:53):
My favorite pepperish farm. She had a goldfish. Oh, although
they get you know, they can interfere with your respiratory system,
the crumminess, the crumbiness of them, But I don't know,
I find those very very satisfying.

Speaker 1 (02:17:08):
Well, you'd love my house. I have two children and
I'm flushed with all times.

Speaker 6 (02:17:13):
Jars of and I also like one I have and
I love Cheetos, but they don't have Cheetos because of course,
wardrobe is complain because the people get especially with white
lab coats. Ye's a horrible thing. But every now and
then you'll find that. But actually, one other thing that
comes to mind. I was on Darbis set and Vicodin

(02:17:36):
from a lot of my work on lawn Order because
I had I was recovering from a herniate. I was
doing a very vigorous Broadway musical at the time and
I had herniated a disc between cervical vertebrae six and seven. See,
I'm a medical examiner and I can say things like that,
And I was on pain killers to this great degree,

(02:17:57):
and I was worried about the lines. And again I
remember taking the second idea aside and saying, don't you
think you should make some of these big cards or
maybe in the case, and he said, yes, we can,
we can easily do that. But miraculously I was able
to get through despite doing it through a drug induced haage.

Speaker 1 (02:18:14):
You wouldn't have known it, you were. Your character is
very sharp. I feel you didn't you didn't notice that
at all. And funny, you're so great.

Speaker 6 (02:18:23):
That's a great great because you.

Speaker 1 (02:18:25):
Know these are newer seasons.

Speaker 2 (02:18:27):
During the first decade or so of SV there was
a little bit of silliness with the darkness, and I
feel like, you know, your character really brings the laughs,
even though it's like killing I.

Speaker 6 (02:18:40):
Haven't seen it. I haven't. I haven't watched it myself.
It's unbearable for me to watch myself. Oh really on
television or film. Yeah, Yates.

Speaker 1 (02:18:47):
Yates's character was really just so creepy, and I think
to just add another serial killer in with him that's matched.
His creepiness would have just been like too much, and
your your character was just such a different vibe of like, yeah,
you were almost charming even though you just chopped someone
into pieces, Like you know.

Speaker 6 (02:19:07):
That's the loveliest thing anyone said to me for weeks.

Speaker 1 (02:19:10):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (02:19:10):
And they let me wear some of my own clothes too,
which is nice. I sort of I showed up for
my costume fitting and they looked at me and said,
you know, you could just go out there right now.
And I don't think it came to that. I think
they gave me sort of clothes that are like ones
that I own. I was able to wear a Panama hat.

Speaker 4 (02:19:29):
Yeah, that's your IMTB phone that I.

Speaker 6 (02:19:31):
That's that's my Panama hat that I wore in in
this particular episode. Yeah, when I'm being arranged or something.

Speaker 1 (02:19:41):
This is why people are yelling murderer at you on
the subway is because you kind of you.

Speaker 6 (02:19:45):
Know, I know, if I were a baseball cat, you know,
and a bomber jacket, this wouldn't happen.

Speaker 4 (02:19:51):
Exactly. What are you working on now?

Speaker 1 (02:19:55):
Yeah? Are you doing theater school or yeah?

Speaker 6 (02:19:57):
Well I'm about I've been working away. I do this
one person version of a Christmas Carol that my wife,
Michael Arden, and I adapted, and I'm about to do
it again at the Old Globe Theater in San Diego.
I did it on Broadway a couple of years ago,
and we did a film of it at the United
Palace Theater up in Washington Heights, and I did at

(02:20:19):
the Geffen Theater here. This that was a much more
elaborate production. And this is essentially me on stage by myself,
without any sort of technical support, telling the story of
a Christmas Carol and embodying all the characters. And I'm
kind of terrified of it. It's going to be in
the round.

Speaker 3 (02:20:37):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (02:20:37):
So I just I hope.

Speaker 6 (02:20:38):
That I don't, you know, make myself in the audience queasy,
like whirling center stage like a Dickens spouting dervish. But
I'm very excited to be doing it. It's one of
my favorite stories. And yeah, so that's what's next up
for me.

Speaker 1 (02:20:57):
That's so cool.

Speaker 4 (02:20:58):
Thank you so much, Thank you so much for taking
the time to talk to us.

Speaker 6 (02:21:02):
I mean, such a pleasure. I admire your admire your
work and your and your obsessions.

Speaker 4 (02:21:09):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:21:14):
He's got style, he's got class. He's Miss United States?
Is that I fucked that up?

Speaker 1 (02:21:19):
Didn't that?

Speaker 2 (02:21:20):
I don't know that it's for Miss congenial Yeah, she's
Miss United States.

Speaker 4 (02:21:26):
I think that might be it.

Speaker 2 (02:21:29):
I saw a video on the internet where it's like
a millennial got married and all the friends did the
whole Miss Congeniality dance. But I was like, I love
that movie. I've seen it hundreds of times, Like, I
don't know if it would have clicked for me right away.

Speaker 4 (02:21:43):
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1 (02:21:44):
I've seen that about times obscure and yeah, I don't know,
but you know, impressive, impressive. No.

Speaker 4 (02:21:50):
I love Jefferson. He sent us extra photos.

Speaker 1 (02:21:53):
We'll share photos of him in bed with like Susie
Frain's head prop like yeah, that and more drag photos
of him. I mean, what a great what a great
guy and a very talented actor.

Speaker 4 (02:22:06):
I mean money, having a nice little wine, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:22:10):
The only serial killer on SVU that I'm like, I
don't know, Maybe i'd hang out with him for a drink,
you know, like William Lewis Yates. Those guys make my
skin crawl. Rudnick, I'm kind of like, well, if I
can forget about the fact that you were cutting people
up alive while they were still a lot like.

Speaker 4 (02:22:24):
You know, then I can.

Speaker 1 (02:22:26):
Uh. I don't know, kind of a kind of a
charming guy, as Cariese says, But have you heard of
this movie A Nora? Yeah, we got to see it. Yeah,
it's great. I like that actress a lot. She's from Uh,
you know, obviously we both watch Better Things, but she's
also from she.

Speaker 4 (02:22:43):
Was in one of those Freewood Yeah, the.

Speaker 1 (02:22:46):
Screams she's killing.

Speaker 2 (02:22:49):
I think we're gonna be a here a long time. Yeah,
this for sure because it won the Big Sun Dance
Word But Frex's friend Sebastian is a truck driver in it,
and he told me was it. He's like, oh, it's
a small part, but he's on the carpet cheese in
and people are like writing him in the reviews that
he killed it. So I'm kind of I feel cool

(02:23:09):
that I know someone in it.

Speaker 1 (02:23:11):
Yeah. I just got invited to a screening, but you
gotta go. But it's like it's like when we're gone,
but I really want to. I really want to see it.
I'm gonna go see it for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:23:22):
I can't wait and I you know, I think there's
a Russian storyline. I there there's gonna be some Russian
in it, So I'm excited about that.

Speaker 1 (02:23:28):
Yeah, for sure. I'm just excited. I just feel like
we're back.

Speaker 2 (02:23:31):
We have four housewife franchises airing at the same time,
we have movies that we want to go rush.

Speaker 1 (02:23:37):
The new season of SVU is yeah. I have even
seen the first two episodes and season A found Yes,
season Found. Yeah, there's a lot going on and I'm excited.

Speaker 4 (02:23:52):
Uh I got a TV person. It's just yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:23:54):
But that's like my biggest flaw is like, I mean,
I have a few but no matter how busy, no
matter how many tasks, no matter how stressed and overwhelmed
I am, I'm watching.

Speaker 1 (02:24:04):
My shows, getting your shows, get your shows done.

Speaker 2 (02:24:07):
But how do I not like this addiction is so real,
Like I'm sitting panicked of like, oh my god, I'm
gonna be up till five am. I know I'm gonna
be up till five am working This is a nightmare,
but I'll I'll still watch my shows like I have
to do it. And I wish I was someone that
like after my you know, I did two standards. I
wish I could go back home and just get No,
I'm watching anatomy a life, you know, like I'm trying

(02:24:30):
to highlight. I'm always trying to do another thing while
I do it. But I just I really prioritize my shows.
It's important. I mean, oh, go and go see good
Rich at the movie theaters. I mean, oh, yeah, Lisa's
in a movie called good Rich. Everybody it's out with
Michael Clinton. Maybe I'll post my Michael Keaton photo today,

(02:24:52):
but yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:24:54):
I've been it's been coming up in my Instagram.

Speaker 6 (02:24:57):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:24:57):
Well, someone I came to the show in San Diego.
I was like, oh my god, I just saw you.
I saw good Rich today and I didn't even know
you were going to be in it, and now I'm
here and I was like, well, why'd you go see it?

Speaker 1 (02:25:06):
And she said the paper had a really good article
about it. So that's really exciting. Oh that's good. So
it's getting good reviews. Yeah, yeah, is really talented. I'm excited.
I hope you mentioned and.

Speaker 2 (02:25:18):
Yeah, I know, I wonder if you'll mention it or
I'll be beetle juice, beetle juice, beetle juice, Beetle Juice.

Speaker 1 (02:25:24):
I don't know. I think it's like that's like done,
it's that's coming gone. We're in good Llweenridge time now,
we're in good Rich season. I just don't know if
Beetle Juice Beetles is even still in the theaters, even
though I know it's Halloween season, Like, I don't know
if it's still out. Movies are in the theater now
for three seconds. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (02:25:40):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:25:41):
I want to see here it say. Hopefully I'll be
able to do a nice review of that. Yeah, it
is cool. A lot of people that like our podcast
like Ruined and it makes me happy.

Speaker 1 (02:25:50):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah Ruined. Oh my god, I really
I don't want to it's gonna be passed when this happens.
But I really want to try to go to that
live show. But I got my kids tickets to the
Bob Baker's boot Tacul. You know how we are. But
we're a Bob Baker family.

Speaker 2 (02:26:03):
Do they have memberships or you always just have to
be on the edge of your seat every new show announced,
rushing to get tickets.

Speaker 1 (02:26:09):
Rushing to get tickets, and like they're always like gone.
Whenever I go like I have to get like three,
Like I get three, but we always sit crisscross apple
sauce on the ground and like it's a lot. But
then people are always on the mom groups going why
are there no tickets?

Speaker 4 (02:26:23):
Like you have to like rush to get everything. It's
crazy they.

Speaker 2 (02:26:25):
Really, I mean, if they're this popular, they need to
get it together.

Speaker 1 (02:26:30):
Well, they just got a marquee and they just had
a big Bob Baker Day to celebrate the fact that
they I think we're able to drive, yes, and I
think that I think they were maybe somehow able to
buy the building or something. But they're they are staying
in La. Casey might know more than me, but like
they're staying in LA. And that was like they had
a big Bob Baker Day thing to like celebrate we're

(02:26:52):
staying in LA. They have a big Neon marquee. That's
really cool. Next time you come to town you'll see it.
I passed it last night driving home and I was like, Oh,
it looks really good at night, like it's all lit up.
So go Bob Baker. That's my shout out for puppets
right now. Anyway, let's get into our what would sister
Peg do are if.

Speaker 2 (02:27:09):
We didn't even touch on the episode, let's just at
least say one thing.

Speaker 1 (02:27:12):
Okay, I don't know, I don't want a victim blame,
but Susie Frain, you got involved with the wrong group
of guys. So you got involved with the wrong two dudes.
But don't ever quietly confess anything to yourself. Keep your
confessions in your brain. You never know when someone's listening,
someone's recording you, like honestly confess in your brain or

(02:27:33):
to a priest, like.

Speaker 4 (02:27:34):
Don't do it.

Speaker 1 (02:27:35):
Don't do it, Like I don't know they fucking told
you the camera was on, they were being recorded, dumb dump.

Speaker 4 (02:27:41):
Yeah, if you're murdering, you gotta keep your mouth shut.

Speaker 1 (02:27:44):
And like I think it's just when like your research
of the crime, it's like it's just another example of
the hubris of these guys. It's like they want their
story to be told the way they want it to
be told, and even if it gets them caught.

Speaker 2 (02:27:58):
You know, it happened to be TK, happened to Durst.
It also is Yeah, money, money is awesome. Yeah, money
really helps you murder for decades. Yeah, he got to
jail and died like almost immediately you know what I mean, like, yeah, yeah,
he couldn't survive the I mean, how good of lawyers

(02:28:19):
did you hire that the jury believed you just put
butchered the body but didn't murder.

Speaker 1 (02:28:25):
It's it's wild. Yeah, I don't understand it. It is wild,
But yeah, I bet you that the lawyers they had,
he had people in Galveston, Texas had never seen anything
like them. Like if you're bringing a Rita and a
Buchanan down to Galveston, Texas, they're getting you out, you know,
damn it's nuts. But anyway, let's move on to our

(02:28:48):
what would Sister Peg do? This is our weekly segment
where we give you a link to a you know,
an organization or a doc or something to give you
more info on today's episode. And I think obviously we
want to point you to The Jinks and to there's
now two parts of it. There's a second part, so
you can watch that now on Max and you can
learn all about the crazy crimes and the murders of

(02:29:10):
Robert Durst and sort of put faces to the names.
If you never watched The Jinks and you just listen
to Lisa's crime recap, you cannot see all the drama
unfold because it clearly was.

Speaker 4 (02:29:20):
The cliff Notes recap. Yes, it really.

Speaker 1 (02:29:22):
The jinx was like a fucking moment in time television wise,
and I don't want anyone to not have seen it.

Speaker 4 (02:29:27):
So check out the jinks. I've got to go watch
the second one.

Speaker 1 (02:29:30):
I haven't seen that so and that'll be posted, you know,
in our stories the day this episode comes.

Speaker 2 (02:29:35):
Out always, and next week we will be doing tunnel
Blind Okay, season twenty five, episode one, so catch on
up with the new seasons. Thanks everyone that came to
see us live on tour, and I hope all of
your voting went amazing.

Speaker 4 (02:29:54):
Thanks for listening. We love all of you.

Speaker 2 (02:30:05):
That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (02:30:08):
If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:30:15):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (02:30:25):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 4 (02:30:29):
Thank you so.

Speaker 2 (02:30:29):
Much to our senior producer, Casey O'Brien and our associate producer,
Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 1 (02:30:35):
And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker
Patrick Cottner. And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song
and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to
our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer,
and everybody at Exactly Right Media dot dun

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Kara Klenk

Liza Treyger

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