May 7, 2025 • 15 mins
Today’s episode will teach you how to have scary conversations at work - seriously, you’ll be learning into those tough chats when you’re done listening!
Plus Em Vernem and Soph Hirst tackle the question of people at the same level earning different salaries, and we’ll show you how to advocate for more cash (let’s face it, we all deserve it).
Also - so, you’ve lied to your boss. Frightening! But we’ll tell you how to fix it.
Welcome to BIZ Inbox, where we turn your anonymous workplace questions into actionable advice. Think of us as your career group chat. Consider this your chance to get free career advice from people who've been there.
This is Lisa Lie’s excellent career development post.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here to get all our tips and tricks.
If you want your work life issue solved, send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can be anon!
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Support independent women's media
Follow the Biz Instagram, Michelle’s startup Sunroom and Soph’s career coaching business Workbaby.
HOSTS: Soph Hirst and Em Vernem
EXEC PRODUCER: Georgie Page
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Mother with Me your podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to biz Inbox. I'm m Vernem and
I'm so first and every week we answer your burning
career questions in the simplest way possible because we're all
busy over here. So I hope you're really proud because
I've done some homework and I've adopted something that I
learned on the podcast, and I'm blocking. Yes, my calendar
(00:36):
has never looked better. Really, I've done like, I think
I've got a bit too hard into it because I've
done like a time for waking up, a time for
getting ready for work, a time for leaving home for work,
a time to get to work.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
You know, no, it's working.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
This is good. It's all about experimentation.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
It's like, please relax, you can chill, all.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Right, M.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Today we're talking about scary work conversations, how to advocate
for more money for you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And your team, and how to recover when you lied
to your manner.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Been there, don't tell anyone. So this first question came
in on LinkedIn and it is anonymous, and I know
exactly why it is anonymous, and said, hello, I have
a question for the podcast. I recently stepped into my
first management position after working as a project manager. I
(01:28):
was given a salary higher than what I was interviewed for,
but still low for the type of role, as they
knew it was my first management position. So our summarized arrest.
She says that there was no process before she started
and had a high turnover, and she has a growing
list of achievements, including her team's morale has been the
best it's ever been. She also said that the company
has advertised for other management roles at her level for
(01:52):
fifteen to thirty k higher, and that there's a huge
disparity in salaries between the project's teams and the sales teams.
So she asks, how do I advocate for my team
and myself when it comes to pay.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah. I just love this.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
So there's so much unpack here, but I think this
situation can be really common throughout your career, so I
really wanted you to talk about it. So I first
just want to say that despite some kind of shitty
stuff at her company, she's delivering and her team are happy.
So that is awesome, and I know this person is brilliant.
I think there's a really interesting point of leverage that
she has, which is she says that turnover in the
(02:28):
company is quite high, but her team is the happiest
they've ever been. So that's a very important point of leverage.
And I want to come back to that.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
What do we do.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I'm going to give you a mindset and if you
can embrace this mindset, this is like almost all you
need in your career if you work at a company, Like,
if you understand this, you'll be good. Like you can
start embracing this tomorrow, but most people don't do it.
It's incredibly powerful and it's based on Harvard research, so
it's like fully backed. Okay, So companies aren't driven by fairness,
(02:58):
and the way to persuade senior leaders is to actually
go in with a learning mindset. So the less you
try to persuade them, ironically, the more persuasive you'll actually be.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So what do I mean by that? You need to.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Park any assumptions that you have, Just try and park
them and switch into curiosity and ask questions as the
first thing that you do. So I want to ask you, like,
why do you think they're advertising these jobs that are
similar for fifty to thirty k higher? Or why do
you think that one of the other teams is getting
paid more than her team.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Is it because they're looking for people with experience, so
they want to hire more people in that position but
actually have experience so they can continue I guess, like
this sounds so shitty, but continue like doing the work
that she's already started.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, it could be that.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
It could be that there's more industry demand for people
in those roles. It could be that that team has
a different type of output. It could be that team's
working on different kinds of projects. It could be that
they're taking her team for granted, and that's like a
historical legacy.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Think.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
The fact is that we don't know what the reasons are.
So the first thing that you want to do is
like genuinely go in with curiosity and be like, why
is this that, like this is happening. And what I
want this person to do is to be able to
arm herself with the same information that those leaders have.
So information is power, and if you can go in
and start asking some questions. So the first thing that
(04:18):
I would do is it depends what kind of relationships
you have with different scenior leaders, with your manager. Yeah,
and I just want you to start asking questions. So
it can be things like trying to uncover what the
A problems in the company are. So these are like
the really big things. You know, you'll have a strategy
at the start of the year, and often halfway through
the year those things aren't actually important anymore. You always
need to be trying to figure out what are the
(04:38):
A problems? Are her team contributing or working on those
A problems? And if they're not, can they be? But
really just be starting to ask lots of questions. And
then if this information is public about the roles that
they're posting that are at a higher salary, Like if
that information is public, it might be okay with people
she trust to kind of say, like, you know, I'm
interested to know why these roles are being advertised at
(05:00):
a higher rate. And then you know, what is it
that my team could be doing to deliver the same
kind of value that these teams.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Are delivering, or what could I personally be delivering to
kind of get that.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
So I think just starting with curiosity is the first
place that I would start interesting. Yeah, and then the
next thing that you want to do there is a
hard truth that the single biggest factor there's some research
behind this that says, particularly for women, why you get
promoted it's whether or not your contributions are known. So
that piece around visibility and packaging your work. It is
true you really need to do it, but most people
(05:31):
do it in the wrong way. So if you think
about your sort of performance reviewer and your review and
you've got these like bullet points and you're bored writing them,
someone else's board reading them, So like you don't just
think about like you know, my team contributed ten percent
or like I did xy Z, you really have to
tell the story about your contribution and repeat it. There's
so much noise at companies, and so I think sometimes
(05:54):
we think like I shared my contributions in my annual
reviewer in a summary email. It's just like not how
it works. So there's a really simple way that I
like to do it, which is think about what it
was like before. So before she joined or before she
started working on a certain problem. Now, think about what
it's like now, So what is the tangible change, Like
what's been the actual difference? And then if you look
at how that change, what was like special or unique
(06:16):
about the way she did it? Like I know this
person is doing stuff that makes her team happy that
no one else, like other managers aren't doing. I know
this person is like doing excellly. She said, she's got
a growing list of achievements, so she's doing special things.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I know she is.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
What you want to do is just pick like one
to three things that are like big problems for the company.
Do that change so like the before, the after, and
then what I did that was special, and repeat that
story to lots of different Oh my.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
God, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's it, and like you just have to keep doing that.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And then don't go in and say, like the sales
team is getting paid more. We're often given this advice,
like you go in and you say, here's my achievements.
I'm worth this, this is what I want from the company,
Like you do sort of need to do those things,
but first to start with curiosity, then go with storytelling,
and then you can if you still like really feel
like you need to have it. It can be something like,
(07:06):
you know, I've been reflecting on the broader value that
I've been bringing and I've grown in this role. So
I started here and now i'm here. Can we talk
about my path to align my compensation to that, and
you want to give them like a bit of a runway,
so like to get to that, Like is it going
to be six months? What do I need to do
in that six months time to get there? What you
don't want to be doing is giving an ultimatum. So
I see me getting paid more. I want to get
(07:28):
paid more, ultimatum.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Don't do that.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
That's so interesting. Oh my god. I hope she messages
us again.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Me too. I will do a follow up with her. Guys,
we love getting your voice notes. And this one came
in and it's a question I hear all the time,
so I think it's a really good one for us
to break down.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
I find having tough conversations at work really difficult, and
I don't really like bringing things up that are uncomfortable.
I find once I get going, but getting started is
the worst part. So I generally put it off, and
most of the time I just avoid having those conversations
at all, which really isn't great. How do I start
(08:07):
scary talks with the boss of work?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, m how are you with tough convers I am
so bad at tough conversations.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I have a feeling. It's mainly like performance reviews or
talking about salary that I'm on the verge of tears
with every single of those conversations.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I think it's something about you trying to advocate for
yourself in a way that you've never done before in
your natural life. Yeah, and it's really hard seeing people
in your workplace, whether it's your manager or your manager's manager,
having to tell you that either you're not good enough
for this thing or you.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Need to do It's a weird like reverse therapy.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah way.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Instead of your therapist is trying to make you feel
really really good about yourself, you're getting someone who's like
doing kind of the opposite.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Yeah, it's very unusual, especially in a work context, and
like you know, you don't do them that often, so
it makes sense that you're going to be feeling always shakes, yes, exactly,
So something that I think can really help. And often,
like getting started is the hardest part. Like once you're
into the converse itself, it can be easier, but just
to focus in on getting started, which is what this
(09:10):
question is about. Want you to think about a frame
for the conversation, So a really good frame can sometimes
be just calling the conversation for what it is and
stating your intention for having the conversation in the first place. So,
I mean, there's lots of different types of scary conversations,
from like asking for four weeks holiday, through to you know,
trying to give someone feedback, through to raising something like
(09:32):
a request that you have. So I like to call
the conversation for what it is and state my intention
for having it. So an example might be, this isn't
going to be an easy conversation for us to have,
but I really care about the dynamic between us, so
I really want us to take the time to talk
to you about this. Or another one might be I
need to request something and I've actually been thinking a
lot about how this is going to impact you. So
(09:54):
I've come with some options, and I want to give
you the chance to kind of pick from those options.
Just creating a little frame and kind of saying this
is sort of how I feel about having the conversation.
You can be a little bit honest and then saying
this is my intention for having it. That can set
it up really nicely, even just as simple as saying, like,
you know, I've been feeling a little bit nervous to
have this conversation, or I've been feeling a little bit worried.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I heard a really good.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Piece of advice the other day, which was, if you
are trying to give feedback to someone, you can even
just say, you know, this might come out as a
little bit clumsy. I'm not sure if my words are
going to be perfect. It might not be perfectly articulated.
But I know that you really value honesty and directness,
so is it okay if I just try my best.
I think it's like this really nice frame you can
(10:37):
put on a conversation first before you actually get into
the detail of the conversation, to just kind of like
spend a minute talking about what the conversation is going
to be. It helps the other person prepare, and it
also just helps you prepare as well.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I think that's so good because I feel like with
these conversations, exactly what this person says, like in the beginning.
I feel like sometimes the way you start the conversation,
you might psyche yourself out and take it in a
different place that you didn't plan to. But if you
do the framework, then you're locked in, like you've already
announced it.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
That is exactly right. It makes it so much easier.
And there's one other tip that I think is really important.
If they know it's going to be a tough conversation, say,
for example, like you've had some issues with the client
and you're like, okay, you're on email and you're like,
we have to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Can we have a phone call? Right?
Speaker 4 (11:24):
So you're both coming into it knowing it's going to
be a tough conversation. Don't start with small talk. Just
say to them, thank you for giving me your time today,
thanks to taking the time. Don't start with like, how
are you, how's your day been. They know it's going
to be a tough conversation. They're just waiting for you
to start with the bad stuff. So no small talk.
If people know it's going to be a.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Still conversation, Okay, I have to try that, all right.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Coming up, we are talking about a TikTok that's gone
absolutely viral. It's about lying to your boss and it
hits too close to hope to close. Okay, So this TikTok,
I've seen it a few times on my social media feeds,
(12:09):
and it's probably because my algorithm knows exactly what I'm
going through, and I want to explain it to you
because it's a lot of text. So it's basically someone
sitting at their computer typing, and the text on the
video says me starting a task. I told my boss
that I'd started two weeks ago, and then it shows
them clicking a link into a Google Docs and it
comes up with the dreaded access denied, please request. So
(12:33):
I have been in this exact same position. I told
my boss I was working on I think it was
a podcast script. Georgie, our producer wasn't this one, don't
at me. I was working on a podcast script a
few years ago, and my producer was like, hey, just
checking you've done your script, Just done your script, and
I'm like, yep, yep, done it, done it, done it.
And then that night I went in to do the
(12:53):
script because I hadn't done it, and it came up
with please request access from my producer.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
So I requested the access.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And then I slacked her and I was like, hey,
so weird. The access reverted and I made her problem.
I was like, I don't know how you did that,
but if you could please grant me access again.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I was like, I just have to make some forget it. Oh,
I love it, away with it?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Yeah if she listens to Yeah, I think you know,
this is a lesson that you learn the hard way.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I wonder if you would do something different now that.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
You're really do like a win is a win.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Here's the thing, right, Managers don't actually care about mistakes,
I would even include like a little lie like this
in that category. What they care about is whether or
not they can trust you. And so the most important
thing that you want to protect is your long term
trust with your manager at all course, and like a
little silly thing like this doesn't need to get in
the way of that long term trust. So, honestly, the
(13:52):
best thing you can do is just to be totally honest.
Don't cover up a lie with another lie, and what
you find is like then you start trying to ghost
things and it just gets really bad. I honestly think
the best thing to do is to just say I
told you I started this task, and I haven't. And
the reason for that is I was feeling a bit
overwhelmed with the stuff I had on my plate, and
I didn't want you to think that I wasn't on
(14:14):
top of things, but I realized now that that wasn't
the right thing to do. It actually feels way worse
not being honest with you. So I just want to
let you know. I'm requesting access now. I'm starting the task.
It's at the top of my priority list. I'm going
to have it done in two hours, and like, I'm
not going to do this again because I really care
about my relationship with you. That's all you need to
do and then just like move on. It's not a
big deal. Like, honestly, I've manager, how.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Would you take that information so well?
Speaker 4 (14:37):
I'd be like, I actually think I like you more
and trust you more now than before this happened. Okay, yeah,
because you're like that honesty that was the exact right
thing to do. I feel like I can really trust you.
Also as a manager, you know yourself, like you've done this.
It's like when your team does it too, it's way
worse to sort of try to keep lying to them
because you can kind of spot that too as a manager. Yeah,
(14:58):
So just like, don't undermine the trust that you have.
But I also do think maybe there's a sneaky little
is there anyone else who can give you access to
the thing.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I would probably do.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
That first, your IT team exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I've definitely done that. I have definitely done that and
you can get saved. So I'm pro that do a
little sneaky. Is there a way around this first? And
then if there's not, just be honest.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah, just stop before you hack that email.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
On that note, thank you so much for helping us
clear the biz Inbox this week. If you have a
work question, please send it our way. You'll find a
link to submit all of your questions in our show notes.
You can tell us your name or you can remain
completely anonymous.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
And if you miss any of our episodes, just scroll
back in your feed. We'll be back in the biz
Inbox next week.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Bye Mia.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to a Mother with Me your podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to biz Inbox. I'm m Vernem and
I'm so first and every week we answer your burning
career questions in the simplest way possible because we're all
busy over here. So I hope you're really proud because
I've done some homework and I've adopted something that I
learned on the podcast, and I'm blocking. Yes, my calendar
(00:36):
has never looked better. Really, I've done like, I think
I've got a bit too hard into it because I've
done like a time for waking up, a time for
getting ready for work, a time for leaving home for work,
a time to get to work.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
You know, no, it's working.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
This is good. It's all about experimentation.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
It's like, please relax, you can chill, all.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Right, M.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Today we're talking about scary work conversations, how to advocate
for more money for you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And your team, and how to recover when you lied
to your manner.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Been there, don't tell anyone. So this first question came
in on LinkedIn and it is anonymous, and I know
exactly why it is anonymous, and said, hello, I have
a question for the podcast. I recently stepped into my
first management position after working as a project manager. I
(01:28):
was given a salary higher than what I was interviewed for,
but still low for the type of role, as they
knew it was my first management position. So our summarized arrest.
She says that there was no process before she started
and had a high turnover, and she has a growing
list of achievements, including her team's morale has been the
best it's ever been. She also said that the company
has advertised for other management roles at her level for
(01:52):
fifteen to thirty k higher, and that there's a huge
disparity in salaries between the project's teams and the sales teams.
So she asks, how do I advocate for my team
and myself when it comes to pay.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah. I just love this.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
So there's so much unpack here, but I think this
situation can be really common throughout your career, so I
really wanted you to talk about it. So I first
just want to say that despite some kind of shitty
stuff at her company, she's delivering and her team are happy.
So that is awesome, and I know this person is brilliant.
I think there's a really interesting point of leverage that
she has, which is she says that turnover in the
(02:28):
company is quite high, but her team is the happiest
they've ever been. So that's a very important point of leverage.
And I want to come back to that.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
What do we do.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I'm going to give you a mindset and if you
can embrace this mindset, this is like almost all you
need in your career if you work at a company, Like,
if you understand this, you'll be good. Like you can
start embracing this tomorrow, but most people don't do it.
It's incredibly powerful and it's based on Harvard research, so
it's like fully backed. Okay, So companies aren't driven by fairness,
(02:58):
and the way to persuade senior leaders is to actually
go in with a learning mindset. So the less you
try to persuade them, ironically, the more persuasive you'll actually be.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So what do I mean by that? You need to.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Park any assumptions that you have, Just try and park
them and switch into curiosity and ask questions as the
first thing that you do. So I want to ask you, like,
why do you think they're advertising these jobs that are
similar for fifty to thirty k higher? Or why do
you think that one of the other teams is getting
paid more than her team.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Is it because they're looking for people with experience, so
they want to hire more people in that position but
actually have experience so they can continue I guess, like
this sounds so shitty, but continue like doing the work
that she's already started.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, it could be that.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
It could be that there's more industry demand for people
in those roles. It could be that that team has
a different type of output. It could be that team's
working on different kinds of projects. It could be that
they're taking her team for granted, and that's like a
historical legacy.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Think.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
The fact is that we don't know what the reasons are.
So the first thing that you want to do is
like genuinely go in with curiosity and be like, why
is this that, like this is happening. And what I
want this person to do is to be able to
arm herself with the same information that those leaders have.
So information is power, and if you can go in
and start asking some questions. So the first thing that
(04:18):
I would do is it depends what kind of relationships
you have with different scenior leaders, with your manager. Yeah,
and I just want you to start asking questions. So
it can be things like trying to uncover what the
A problems in the company are. So these are like
the really big things. You know, you'll have a strategy
at the start of the year, and often halfway through
the year those things aren't actually important anymore. You always
need to be trying to figure out what are the
(04:38):
A problems? Are her team contributing or working on those
A problems? And if they're not, can they be? But
really just be starting to ask lots of questions. And
then if this information is public about the roles that
they're posting that are at a higher salary, Like if
that information is public, it might be okay with people
she trust to kind of say, like, you know, I'm
interested to know why these roles are being advertised at
(05:00):
a higher rate. And then you know, what is it
that my team could be doing to deliver the same
kind of value that these teams.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Are delivering, or what could I personally be delivering to
kind of get that.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
So I think just starting with curiosity is the first
place that I would start interesting. Yeah, and then the
next thing that you want to do there is a
hard truth that the single biggest factor there's some research
behind this that says, particularly for women, why you get
promoted it's whether or not your contributions are known. So
that piece around visibility and packaging your work. It is
true you really need to do it, but most people
(05:31):
do it in the wrong way. So if you think
about your sort of performance reviewer and your review and
you've got these like bullet points and you're bored writing them,
someone else's board reading them, So like you don't just
think about like you know, my team contributed ten percent
or like I did xy Z, you really have to
tell the story about your contribution and repeat it. There's
so much noise at companies, and so I think sometimes
(05:54):
we think like I shared my contributions in my annual
reviewer in a summary email. It's just like not how
it works. So there's a really simple way that I
like to do it, which is think about what it
was like before. So before she joined or before she
started working on a certain problem. Now, think about what
it's like now, So what is the tangible change, Like
what's been the actual difference? And then if you look
at how that change, what was like special or unique
(06:16):
about the way she did it? Like I know this
person is doing stuff that makes her team happy that
no one else, like other managers aren't doing. I know
this person is like doing excellly. She said, she's got
a growing list of achievements, so she's doing special things.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I know she is.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
What you want to do is just pick like one
to three things that are like big problems for the company.
Do that change so like the before, the after, and
then what I did that was special, and repeat that
story to lots of different Oh my.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
God, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's it, and like you just have to keep doing that.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And then don't go in and say, like the sales
team is getting paid more. We're often given this advice,
like you go in and you say, here's my achievements.
I'm worth this, this is what I want from the company,
Like you do sort of need to do those things,
but first to start with curiosity, then go with storytelling,
and then you can if you still like really feel
like you need to have it. It can be something like,
(07:06):
you know, I've been reflecting on the broader value that
I've been bringing and I've grown in this role. So
I started here and now i'm here. Can we talk
about my path to align my compensation to that, and
you want to give them like a bit of a runway,
so like to get to that, Like is it going
to be six months? What do I need to do
in that six months time to get there? What you
don't want to be doing is giving an ultimatum. So
I see me getting paid more. I want to get
(07:28):
paid more, ultimatum.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Don't do that.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
That's so interesting. Oh my god. I hope she messages
us again.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Me too. I will do a follow up with her. Guys,
we love getting your voice notes. And this one came
in and it's a question I hear all the time,
so I think it's a really good one for us
to break down.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
I find having tough conversations at work really difficult, and
I don't really like bringing things up that are uncomfortable.
I find once I get going, but getting started is
the worst part. So I generally put it off, and
most of the time I just avoid having those conversations
at all, which really isn't great. How do I start
(08:07):
scary talks with the boss of work?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, m how are you with tough convers I am
so bad at tough conversations.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I have a feeling. It's mainly like performance reviews or
talking about salary that I'm on the verge of tears
with every single of those conversations.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I think it's something about you trying to advocate for
yourself in a way that you've never done before in
your natural life. Yeah, and it's really hard seeing people
in your workplace, whether it's your manager or your manager's manager,
having to tell you that either you're not good enough
for this thing or you.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Need to do It's a weird like reverse therapy.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah way.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Instead of your therapist is trying to make you feel
really really good about yourself, you're getting someone who's like
doing kind of the opposite.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Yeah, it's very unusual, especially in a work context, and
like you know, you don't do them that often, so
it makes sense that you're going to be feeling always shakes, yes, exactly,
So something that I think can really help. And often,
like getting started is the hardest part. Like once you're
into the converse itself, it can be easier, but just
to focus in on getting started, which is what this
(09:10):
question is about. Want you to think about a frame
for the conversation, So a really good frame can sometimes
be just calling the conversation for what it is and
stating your intention for having the conversation in the first place. So,
I mean, there's lots of different types of scary conversations,
from like asking for four weeks holiday, through to you know,
trying to give someone feedback, through to raising something like
(09:32):
a request that you have. So I like to call
the conversation for what it is and state my intention
for having it. So an example might be, this isn't
going to be an easy conversation for us to have,
but I really care about the dynamic between us, so
I really want us to take the time to talk
to you about this. Or another one might be I
need to request something and I've actually been thinking a
lot about how this is going to impact you. So
(09:54):
I've come with some options, and I want to give
you the chance to kind of pick from those options.
Just creating a little frame and kind of saying this
is sort of how I feel about having the conversation.
You can be a little bit honest and then saying
this is my intention for having it. That can set
it up really nicely, even just as simple as saying, like,
you know, I've been feeling a little bit nervous to
have this conversation, or I've been feeling a little bit worried.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I heard a really good.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Piece of advice the other day, which was, if you
are trying to give feedback to someone, you can even
just say, you know, this might come out as a
little bit clumsy. I'm not sure if my words are
going to be perfect. It might not be perfectly articulated.
But I know that you really value honesty and directness,
so is it okay if I just try my best.
I think it's like this really nice frame you can
(10:37):
put on a conversation first before you actually get into
the detail of the conversation, to just kind of like
spend a minute talking about what the conversation is going
to be. It helps the other person prepare, and it
also just helps you prepare as well.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I think that's so good because I feel like with
these conversations, exactly what this person says, like in the beginning.
I feel like sometimes the way you start the conversation,
you might psyche yourself out and take it in a
different place that you didn't plan to. But if you
do the framework, then you're locked in, like you've already
announced it.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
That is exactly right. It makes it so much easier.
And there's one other tip that I think is really important.
If they know it's going to be a tough conversation, say,
for example, like you've had some issues with the client
and you're like, okay, you're on email and you're like,
we have to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Can we have a phone call? Right?
Speaker 4 (11:24):
So you're both coming into it knowing it's going to
be a tough conversation. Don't start with small talk. Just
say to them, thank you for giving me your time today,
thanks to taking the time. Don't start with like, how
are you, how's your day been. They know it's going
to be a tough conversation. They're just waiting for you
to start with the bad stuff. So no small talk.
If people know it's going to be a.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Still conversation, Okay, I have to try that, all right.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Coming up, we are talking about a TikTok that's gone
absolutely viral. It's about lying to your boss and it
hits too close to hope to close. Okay, So this TikTok,
I've seen it a few times on my social media feeds,
(12:09):
and it's probably because my algorithm knows exactly what I'm
going through, and I want to explain it to you
because it's a lot of text. So it's basically someone
sitting at their computer typing, and the text on the
video says me starting a task. I told my boss
that I'd started two weeks ago, and then it shows
them clicking a link into a Google Docs and it
comes up with the dreaded access denied, please request. So
(12:33):
I have been in this exact same position. I told
my boss I was working on I think it was
a podcast script. Georgie, our producer wasn't this one, don't
at me. I was working on a podcast script a
few years ago, and my producer was like, hey, just
checking you've done your script, Just done your script, and
I'm like, yep, yep, done it, done it, done it.
And then that night I went in to do the
(12:53):
script because I hadn't done it, and it came up
with please request access from my producer.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
So I requested the access.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And then I slacked her and I was like, hey,
so weird. The access reverted and I made her problem.
I was like, I don't know how you did that,
but if you could please grant me access again.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I was like, I just have to make some forget it. Oh,
I love it, away with it?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Yeah if she listens to Yeah, I think you know,
this is a lesson that you learn the hard way.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I wonder if you would do something different now that.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
You're really do like a win is a win.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Here's the thing, right, Managers don't actually care about mistakes,
I would even include like a little lie like this
in that category. What they care about is whether or
not they can trust you. And so the most important
thing that you want to protect is your long term
trust with your manager at all course, and like a
little silly thing like this doesn't need to get in
the way of that long term trust. So, honestly, the
(13:52):
best thing you can do is just to be totally honest.
Don't cover up a lie with another lie, and what
you find is like then you start trying to ghost
things and it just gets really bad. I honestly think
the best thing to do is to just say I
told you I started this task, and I haven't. And
the reason for that is I was feeling a bit
overwhelmed with the stuff I had on my plate, and
I didn't want you to think that I wasn't on
(14:14):
top of things, but I realized now that that wasn't
the right thing to do. It actually feels way worse
not being honest with you. So I just want to
let you know. I'm requesting access now. I'm starting the task.
It's at the top of my priority list. I'm going
to have it done in two hours, and like, I'm
not going to do this again because I really care
about my relationship with you. That's all you need to
do and then just like move on. It's not a
big deal. Like, honestly, I've manager, how.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Would you take that information so well?
Speaker 4 (14:37):
I'd be like, I actually think I like you more
and trust you more now than before this happened. Okay, yeah,
because you're like that honesty that was the exact right
thing to do. I feel like I can really trust you.
Also as a manager, you know yourself, like you've done this.
It's like when your team does it too, it's way
worse to sort of try to keep lying to them
because you can kind of spot that too as a manager. Yeah,
(14:58):
So just like, don't undermine the trust that you have.
But I also do think maybe there's a sneaky little
is there anyone else who can give you access to
the thing.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I would probably do.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
That first, your IT team exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I've definitely done that. I have definitely done that and
you can get saved. So I'm pro that do a
little sneaky. Is there a way around this first? And
then if there's not, just be honest.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah, just stop before you hack that email.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
On that note, thank you so much for helping us
clear the biz Inbox this week. If you have a
work question, please send it our way. You'll find a
link to submit all of your questions in our show notes.
You can tell us your name or you can remain
completely anonymous.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
And if you miss any of our episodes, just scroll
back in your feed. We'll be back in the biz
Inbox next week.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Bye Mia.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
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