March 17, 2025 • 25 mins
Whether you're navigating a redundancy right now or just want to be prepared, we’re going to change your perspective of redundancy.
Mia Freedman takes us behind the headlines of her very public redundancy that led her to founding Mamamia (you won’t believe the job they offered her instead…).
You'll hear Mia in conversation with Michelle Battersby and then insight from our career coach Soph Hirst, and you'll get practical advice on how to create a narrative that positions you perfectly for your next role and how to rebuild your confidence and reputation after a career setback.
If you want your work life issue solved, send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au.
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HOSTS: Michelle Battersby, Soph Hirst and Em Vernem
EXEC PRODUCER: Kimberly Braddish
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello and welcome to Biz your work life Sorted. I'm
m Venim and today we're going to discuss something that
happens to so many of us across our careers, and
that's redundancy. And I feel like our attitudes towards being
made redundant is changing, but the thought of it still
makes me extremely nervous. So first things first, redundancy happens
(00:35):
when your role is no longer needed due to business changes,
restructuring or closure. It's different from being fired, and if
you've been in a company for over twelve months as
a full time or part time employee, you're usually entitled
to a payout of some sort. Today we are joined
by someone who turned their redundancy into an incredible success story,
(00:55):
Mom and MIA's founder and my boss, Miir Friedman. She
went from a very public redundancy to building Australia's largest
women's media company. Mia. Along with our career coaches Michelle
Batisby and Sohurst, will help you navigate the emotional rollercoaster
that is a redundancy and trust me, you'll want to
(01:16):
hear their advice on how to take this career curveball
and turn it into your next big opportunity. You'll see
that however you feel at the time, it's not all
bad and it can even be a good chance to
reset and find something better, just like a breakup.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So before we jump into this episode, I want people
to know that from my perspective as an employer, a
redundancy is not a bad thing. It is an opportunity
to reset, and I think it is what you make
of it. But I don't want this to come across
like toxic positivity. It's just that factually, as an employer,
(01:53):
you know that things change. Businesses pivot, technologies advance, and
the thing with being made redundant is think of it
like your role has been made redundant, not you have
been made redundant. There is a distinction there. To prepare
(02:16):
for this episode, I went out on my Instagram and
I had over two thousand people respond and forty percent
of them said that they had been made redundant. And
I then asked a follow up question, how did it feel?
And it was a really mixed bag. It ranged from
it was a sleigh. It was the best thing to
(02:37):
ever happen to me. I was so well looked after
it led to way better things too. I felt ashamed.
It was the most traumatic thing to ever happen to me.
I felt worthless and embarrassed. So let's speak to someone
who actually has been through it. Mia Friedman. Miya is
the founder and creative director of Mama Mia, the largest
(03:00):
women's podcast network in the world. But before that, Miya
was the youngest editor of Cosmo and worked on the
likes of Dolly, which is iconic, my first ever magazine subscription,
and she had a killer career for over fifteen years.
She then transitioned to Channel nine, where she was made
redundant after twelve months. Mia, welcome, hello from the outside
(03:25):
looking in. I feel like you've just come off the
highest high of your career and then you find yourself
in this role where you're made redundant after twelve months.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
What was that like?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
What was your mindset like at that time?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I was just listening to you describe all the different
ways that people feel after redundancy, what they told you,
and I think I felt all of those ways at once,
because my situation was slightly different in that I had
to fight to get a redundancy. The job that I
went to do to be an executive in TV wasn't
(04:00):
really a job, and the person who hired me left
the company and I'd had it written in my con
tract that I was there to report to him. So
the job that I was doing had become so awful
and the situation was so unpleasant. The company really wanted
me to just quit. And if i'd have just quit,
I would have walked away with nothing. But because it
(04:22):
was actually the TV company I was working for was
owned by the same magazine company that I had worked for,
I had like fifteen or sixteen years of service. So
even though I'd been at this one job for not long,
I did what a lot of women want to do,
which is just get away from a difficult situation. And
that would have cost me financially massively. And it was
my husband who said, no, you're a redundant, like the
(04:44):
thing that you came to do. You can't do anymore.
Fight for redundancy. So I fought, and it was really unpleasant,
but I finally secured it, which meant that I had
like almost a year's worth of salary. And what that
did was, even though it was absolutely humiliating and it
seemed to everyone like I'd been fired, and I may
as well have been fired because my time at this
(05:05):
company had been a disaster and I'd achieved nothing. I
had that amount of money that I could then use
to do my next thing. It brought me time. What
my redundancy brought me is time, and for some people
that might just be a month. For me, it was
about a year, and it enabled me to start a
blog and not earn anything for a year, which is
(05:29):
a huge amount of time because I certainly I didn't
earn anything from AMEA for more than a year. The
humiliation and the shame is very, very real. And I
think that the most important question to ask yourself is
was I made redundant because my skill set isn't applicable anymore?
Or was I made redundant because the company changed shape
(05:51):
and they had to restructure? And what you do next
depends on your answer to those two questions, because if
it's your skill set, then you have to pivot. You
have to really think, Okay, I loved being an illustrator,
but now it's all go on to graphic design, and
the skill that I had, the skill that I've always had,
is no longer applicable because of technology, because of whatever,
(06:13):
I need to find a different skill set and a
different way to get employed. If it's just that the
company change shape and you have valuable skills that could
just apply somewhere else, that's a different conversation and that's
a better situation to me. The way that I always
think about it is from both an employer point of
view and how I thought about it when I was
made redundant is they've freed my future.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, Like, my future has been freed. Even if you
lose your job, even if you are sacked, you freed
someone's future. It's like ending a relationship. Yeah. No one
wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't
want to be with them anymore. Nobody wants to be
in a job that they can't do. Like not really.
So ultimately, if you think about it, Okay, my future
has been freed.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
What next?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah? I think this is so important for women that
advocating for yourself and knowing when you are owed something,
And I think many listeners might not know where to
begin with those conversations like advocating for yourself and saying
hang on, my roles are no longer required. I'm oda redundancy, Like,
where did you start with those conversations? Did you get
(07:18):
a lawyer?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I didn't have a lawyer. In the beginning, I could
tell that they just wanted me to quit because of
course it's just easier, right, it's a problem they wouldn't
have to deal with. And then they tried to offer
me jobs that were really inappropriate.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Like they were like deploying you exactly, like and.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
They have to do that legally. But also I wasn't
qualified to do those jobs, like They're like, well, maybe
you could just be head of hair and makeup and
wardrobe what because I had a vagina, so you know,
you can do they offered you yeah, yeah, exactly, and
so not if there's anything wrong with that. But that's
not that's not what I came for. It's not my
skill set, it's not my background. It was hard. It
was really really hard because I just wanted to avoid confrontation.
(07:56):
I just wanted to go oh no, no, no, I just quit.
I'll just you know, I can't. I don't want to
go back. And I had a baby at the time,
a newborn and a seven year old, and I just
was like, I hate it here. Everyone hates me, I'm failing.
I just wanted to get away immediately, And the actual
negotiating the redundancy and fighting for what I was owed
(08:17):
made for an uncomfortable few weeks, but my god, it
was worth it because of what it brought me on
the other side.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, I also think for those listening and like where
both employers, I find most employers actually do want to
do good in the end for their employees. Like most
of the time it actually will give you what you're
asking for because they also want it to go away, or.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
They'll try because in almost every case, certainly every case
I've experienced as an employer, when we've had to make
people redundant, it's never about the people, like it literally
is never about the people. It's about needing to change
the shape of the business or skill sets that other
people have that replace this skill set, and it's about budgets,
Like it really comes down to budgets, and businesses are
(09:01):
called businesses for a reason. You can't just afford to
keep people on because you like them, unfortunately, so it
honestly isn't personal. So if you can just try to
keep your emotions in check as much as possible and
be really calm, and you want to leave in the
best way possible. You know. I've been so impressed with
(09:23):
people I know who have been made redundant in the
last year or so, and the way that they've left
their businesses has been so impressive and has really made
such a difference to their future employment prospects.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, you negotiate into a company with grace and you
put your best foot forward. And I think it's really
important to remember. I've heard it be called like elegantly
exit like, Yes, such a good thing to remember. Yeah,
and sometimes you do just have to take the high road. Yeah,
and just swallow your pride you do. On the not
(09:58):
taking it personally side of things, I think I saw
a headline that said something like shows over for MEA.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yes, I arranged to leave. I'd been part of launching
this new daytime show at Channel nine, and when I left,
they didn't tell me they were going to do this,
and I completely understand why they did. They asked the
show on that day, so it very much seemed like
I had been sacked, and it looked very bad, and
get I completely understand why they did that, and it
(10:28):
was so funny. I remember going home and my phone
was blowing up, and I just sat on my bed
with my laptop and my phone next to me. And
the big splash on all the news websites was because
there's a lot of publicity around Channel nine at that time,
and about women leaving Channel nine and things, and it
was just those kind of headline shows over for me,
a big pictures of me back when it was a
(10:50):
print newspaper, because this was almost twenty years ago, you know,
it was page three. It was like this big picture
of me, and I remember, as humiliating as it was,
I remember thinking to myself, Oh, well, at least everybody
will know that I'm available for employment, so the phone
will ring. And yet the phone never rang.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
To be honest, my reputation had been damaged so much
by the time i'd been at Channel nine for a
variety of reasons. It was the culture there at that
time was really bad. There'd been awful like leaks, and
it was just a very very bad culture. And my
reputation had really been trashed. And I'd had such a
great reputation from the fifteen years prior when I'd worked
(11:32):
in magazines. I worked really hard and I'd got to
the top of my field and it was like literally
wiped out in a matter of months, and so the
phone never rang, and I was so shocked by that.
I was so hurt and shocked and I lost all
my confidence. But I must have known. I must have
(11:54):
suspected because when I was planning my redundancy in that
last when I was thinking about leaving and telling them
I wanted a redundancy. And then in the few days
that I left, on the day my redundancy was announced,
I launched a pressed publish on Mamma Mea for my
first post because I knew that there'd be a lot
of media interest, and I was like, well, best I
(12:15):
capitalize on that because I'll have twenty four hours in
the news cycle.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
This was pre social media, of course, and I want
to make sure I people know where I am and
they know where to find me. So I did that.
My first post was about why I had left. But
I was very careful and have been careful to this
day to not trash anyone individually, to go with grace,
as you just said, elegantly exit And even though I
(12:42):
was personally devastated, bitter, angry, resentful, all of those things.
I held it in check and that was hard, but
I had something to do, so even though I wasn't
offered anything, I thought, I'll do this, I'll launched this
blog and I'll start it while I wait, while I
decide what's going to happen next. And I feel job
(13:02):
offers and those job offers never came, which is actually
really thing because it meant that I had to just
keep going.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I think this is so interesting. I feel like you
were taken to one of the scariest places, where it's
redundancy and then reputational damage and kind of being dragged
publicly in a way that is out of your control
and you're not going to retaliate. You just have to
suck it up. Yeah, I do think that would be
(13:29):
one of the scariest places to be taken to. How
do you rebuild your confidence?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Took a really long time. There's no easy way to
say it. It wasn't a magic pill, you know, after
the adrenaline of all of that wears off. And now
I guess everybody and I've read a lot of them
now makes those announcements on LinkedIn and the phrasing of
what you say is very important, and there's so As
you said, forty percent of the people who applied to
(13:56):
you out of two thousand had been made redundant. It's
a really really common thing. And it's not like people go, oh,
she's shit, she's got a bad smell about her because
she's made redundant. My reputation was destroyed not because of
my redundancy, but but what had happened during the time
I was there, and the stories that had been leaked
about me to the press that were not true, and
(14:19):
that sort of reputational smearing that happened while I was there,
and also the fact that the show I launched sort
of didn't work and wasn't very good, and I've got
to completely own that, and also the fact that I
should never have gone to this job because it wasn't
a real job. It was an idea, but it wasn't
a real job. But I was so keen to get it.
And this actually speaks to a mistake not to make
(14:40):
after a redundancy, because when I left magazines, it was
when I had my second child, and I knew I
was done with magazines, but I didn't know what I
wanted to do next. And I learned the hard way.
Never make a big career decision. For me, it's in
the twelve months after having a baby. For other people,
it might be less. For me. Usually coincides with the
(15:00):
amount of time that I'm breastfeeding. I didn't breastfeed her
for a year because I had a lot of problems
with that. But in that first few months, when I
was sleep deprived, hormonal, was having a really hard time,
I made the decision. I knew I wanted to leave magazines,
but I didn't know where I wanted to go. This
job was offered to me, and I went sure, and
I jumped at it, and it was really stupid because
(15:21):
I didn't think carefully enough and it wasn't enough of
a job, so I didn't do my due diligence. I
didn't really prosecute that decision.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
Well.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So back to never make an emotional decision. That's a
really important thing to keep in mind after a redundancy,
because you know, it's almost like heartbreak. The first person
who comes along and looks at you, you're like, oh,
you do like me, okay, And they might be a dickhead, yeah,
but you're just so desperate for some validation that you
want to be very careful about the thing you do next.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
That's so fascinating because I actually listened to a podcast
and I think it was recommended by Jesse Stevens, and
it was about intuition and it said at the time
to never trust your intuition. And it's when you're going
through a huge emotion change. It actually labels like a breakup,
but motherhood would totally be one too, Like your intuition
is completely off.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, during moments like that's exactly right for me. I
was just not thinking clearly, and it took me a
long time to recover from it, and it took me
a long time to build my confidence back up and
build my reputation. It took me a really, really long time.
But I don't think that's the case after redundancy. I
was actually funny enough speaking to someone yesterday who'd just
been made redundant in quite a high profile way, but
(16:35):
it was very clear that it was nothing to do
with her. It was just a restructure of the company
and she was actually feeling great about it. You know,
I know a lot of people who've actually been through
it lately, and you see the twin sides of the
hurt and the of course it's humiliating and you feel ashamed,
but you get over that and the decision you make
(16:55):
next is one that can change everything.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah, I think internally it hurts more externally, like the
optics really aren't bad, and no one's thinking, no, you
should have your job.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
No. It's like as an employer. Also, I'll often look
at CVS and there'll be someone who's been somewhere for
a year, and I probably stayed at this job. I
probably should have left much earlier, but I was so
worried about how it would look. A lot of people
have that experience of just going somewhere for a year.
The question is the narrative you tell I've had it, Yeah, exactly,
we've had it. And the question is how anything can
(17:27):
be explained with the right narrative. The thing not to
do is to say anything negative, whether you were made redundant,
whether you lost your job, whether you quit because the
place was a nightmare. The point is the narrative that
you tell to your next prospective employer.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, I completely agree, and I think.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
What would you say? What did you when people were like, oh,
you're only there for a little bit of time. And
also people love a bit of gossip. Yeah, and to
me bad if you're interviewing someone and you're like, oh,
what happened, and it's like, the minute they start bad mouthing,
even though partly you do want to know the goss,
the minute they start bad mouthing their former employer, for me,
that's disqualifying.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
One hundred percent. My narrative has always been when to
build X skill set, achieved, that learned a lot, was
always gearing up to do this next thing.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yea. And even if you say it wasn't for me
for these reasons, or you say I was made redundant
for these reasons, you just got to own it.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
I think I agree. I think the narrative, it's all
about the narrative. You're an employer. How do you view redundancies?
Do you see them as a red flag?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I see redundancies as an opportunity. So there's been a
huge number of redundancies in media lately, and the first
thing we do is see who's been made redundant and
often have a conversation with them, see if the skill
set of that person and the experience of that person
could fit into our company. Because every business is a
different shape so all the reasons that someone's been made
(18:50):
redundant from one place probably doesn't apply to you. So
anyone who's been made redundant my years always pick up
and I'm like, oh, I'm literally how could we find
a way to fit them in? And you've got to
be careful as an employer, because you don't want to
shoehorn someone in just because they're great on paper, or
you've got to make sure that you've got the right
hole for whatever shape they are. But it certainly doesn't
(19:13):
put me off such.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
A good perspective. It's an opportunity for the individual, and
it's an opportunity for business owners, like yeah, in the
tech world, we will get sent lists of all these
amazing engineers talent that have been laid off at other
tech companies, and we look through it like, fuck, yeah,
can we here?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Can we? Absolutely? And so that's why you don't have
to have your tail between your legs. You just have
to own it. And that doesn't mean you can't say
to a future employee, yeah, I was really disappointed. I
loved it there, or I understand why it happened. I mean,
that's if you can ever say I completely understand was
I disappointed, Sure, but it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, love that. Okay, we'll have to do a follow
up episode on how to stay in a job for
twelve months when you ate it?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Oh yeah, man? And should I have just pulled the
pin on that first day when I went and I
knew it wasn't right. When I'd been trying to work
out with my then about to be boss, We've been
trying to land on a title and we just couldn't
land on one. And that's a red flag, which I
hadn't realized because I had baby brain at the time,
and also because I hadn't really moved companies before. I'd
(20:15):
worked in one for one employer until then. But on
that first day, I went and introduced myself to someone
in the next office next to me, and they're like, oh,
what do you do? And I said, I'm the creative
services director and they went, that's my title?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
And I should have known yeah that day.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Okay, Yeah, project red flags and employers as well.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
You know what's funny, Michelle, I thought this topic might
only be relevant to like a certain segment of our listeners,
but that is some of the most wise career advice
that is so broadly applicable to anyone. How good is
hearing another woman's story to give you perspective on your
own situation, Like I'm just thinking about hearing me I
(21:05):
talk about her reputation and how literally her redundancy was
splashed over these insane headlines. I the other day was
worried about my reputation because I accidentally posted the same
LinkedIn post twice and I was like, people are going
to think I'm a mourn and she's like, they're with headlines.
Bit of perspective, not to make me feel bad, but
in terms of lessons that I'm going to commit to
(21:25):
my long term memory and just think about them all
the time. They're so relevant to everyone in their career. One,
it's not personal, it's situational. I actually say that to
myself in so many cases at work. So I think
that part where you guys were talking about when you
get made redundant, it's either the skills or the company
structure that needs to change.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
So this idea that.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
It's not personal it's actually situational, I think relieves so
much of the kind of emotional pressure that we put
on ourselves. And I think that's just broadly applicable to
so many things at work. I actually read the other
day that in terms of your skills in your job,
one third of people's roles are going to be affected
by AI. So I think this idea of like, you
probably are going to need to change your skills, company
(22:05):
structures probably are going to change, and I think just
being able to recognize that it's nothing wrong with you,
it's just that we have to adapt and change. I
thought that was very cool.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Also your mindset around this, so just making the distinction
that it's not personal, it's the situation because we probably
all are going to be faced with this relatively soon.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I loved the part around keep your emotions in check
and have grace that elegant exit. It's just you know,
again like applying that to so many situations at work.
I say to myself all the time, like, just try
to have grace in this situation. How do you want
to show up? And just don't trash people, like in general,
don't go around trashing people at work. The second point
(22:47):
was around when Mia said, you know, it was a
hard conversation, but that lasted for about two weeks, and
then on the other side of it was so much goodness.
I think that is something you can apply to so
many situations at work. It's this acute, short term pain
that we feel and then the long term benefit is
so worth it. So just like be willing to have
(23:07):
that difficult conversation at the time and then just know
that there's something really good on the other side.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, not like cutting yourself short because you're trying to
escape an uncomfortable situation.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah, that's so it. And then the last one, it
was around every situation is recoverable and owning your narrative. Again,
for me, like just this idea. I found it so
refreshing that. Yeah, she talked about the toxic culture there
and all these problems with you know, there wasn't actually
a role for her instructure and things like that. But
I also really loved her honesty around you know, she
had this big project and it didn't really work. She
(23:38):
was so non emotional and objective about this failure. And
I feel like we all talk about, oh, yeah, learn
from your failure, and you know, failing is good, but
it never feels like that because no one really talks
about times when they have failed. So I just loved
that she talked about something that didn't work, and like
she's been a rocket ship since then. So I just
think owning your narrative, knowing that you have choices and
(24:00):
there are things that you can do. Even to her
point right, LinkedIn didn't exist at the time. Now we've
all got a play and you can sort of you
can course correct, you can kind of position things in
the way you want to position them, and like everything
is recoverable. So yeah, those are the three lessons that
I am going to take away from this interview, and
thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
I think those were great things to drive home. That
last one in particular, she did just own that that
show was basically a flop and there was nothing much
else to it. It was just like, yeah, it didn't work.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
It was so unemotional. I feel like we've all got
this whenever we talk about our failures. It's sort of
like it has to be this big thing. It's just like,
very objectively, the show didn't work. Again, back to that
thing around, It wasn't personal. It doesn't mean she is
bad at her job or will be forever. It's just
like the show didn't work. Whatever, move on, and I
just yeah, that's definitely my favorite too.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
The biggest takeaway from today's episode is that redundancy isn't personal,
it's situational. As Mia showed us, it can actually be
the push you need towards something much better. And here's
a practical tip. If you're going through a redundancy, head
to the fair Work website. There'll be a link in
our show notes. They have a fantastic calculated tool that
you can put in all your employment details and you
(25:17):
can actually find out exactly what pay out you're entitled to.
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there for you. And also don't forget to follow us
on Instagram at biz by Mama Mia. We are constantly
posting there and you can even save our little posts
because that's literally what I've been doing. Mamma Mia acknowledges
(25:47):
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello and welcome to Biz your work life Sorted. I'm
m Venim and today we're going to discuss something that
happens to so many of us across our careers, and
that's redundancy. And I feel like our attitudes towards being
made redundant is changing, but the thought of it still
makes me extremely nervous. So first things first, redundancy happens
(00:35):
when your role is no longer needed due to business changes,
restructuring or closure. It's different from being fired, and if
you've been in a company for over twelve months as
a full time or part time employee, you're usually entitled
to a payout of some sort. Today we are joined
by someone who turned their redundancy into an incredible success story,
(00:55):
Mom and MIA's founder and my boss, Miir Friedman. She
went from a very public redundancy to building Australia's largest
women's media company. Mia. Along with our career coaches Michelle
Batisby and Sohurst, will help you navigate the emotional rollercoaster
that is a redundancy and trust me, you'll want to
(01:16):
hear their advice on how to take this career curveball
and turn it into your next big opportunity. You'll see
that however you feel at the time, it's not all
bad and it can even be a good chance to
reset and find something better, just like a breakup.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So before we jump into this episode, I want people
to know that from my perspective as an employer, a
redundancy is not a bad thing. It is an opportunity
to reset, and I think it is what you make
of it. But I don't want this to come across
like toxic positivity. It's just that factually, as an employer,
(01:53):
you know that things change. Businesses pivot, technologies advance, and
the thing with being made redundant is think of it
like your role has been made redundant, not you have
been made redundant. There is a distinction there. To prepare
(02:16):
for this episode, I went out on my Instagram and
I had over two thousand people respond and forty percent
of them said that they had been made redundant. And
I then asked a follow up question, how did it feel?
And it was a really mixed bag. It ranged from
it was a sleigh. It was the best thing to
(02:37):
ever happen to me. I was so well looked after
it led to way better things too. I felt ashamed.
It was the most traumatic thing to ever happen to me.
I felt worthless and embarrassed. So let's speak to someone
who actually has been through it. Mia Friedman. Miya is
the founder and creative director of Mama Mia, the largest
(03:00):
women's podcast network in the world. But before that, Miya
was the youngest editor of Cosmo and worked on the
likes of Dolly, which is iconic, my first ever magazine subscription,
and she had a killer career for over fifteen years.
She then transitioned to Channel nine, where she was made
redundant after twelve months. Mia, welcome, hello from the outside
(03:25):
looking in. I feel like you've just come off the
highest high of your career and then you find yourself
in this role where you're made redundant after twelve months.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
What was that like?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
What was your mindset like at that time?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I was just listening to you describe all the different
ways that people feel after redundancy, what they told you,
and I think I felt all of those ways at once,
because my situation was slightly different in that I had
to fight to get a redundancy. The job that I
went to do to be an executive in TV wasn't
(04:00):
really a job, and the person who hired me left
the company and I'd had it written in my con
tract that I was there to report to him. So
the job that I was doing had become so awful
and the situation was so unpleasant. The company really wanted
me to just quit. And if i'd have just quit,
I would have walked away with nothing. But because it
(04:22):
was actually the TV company I was working for was
owned by the same magazine company that I had worked for,
I had like fifteen or sixteen years of service. So
even though I'd been at this one job for not long,
I did what a lot of women want to do,
which is just get away from a difficult situation. And
that would have cost me financially massively. And it was
my husband who said, no, you're a redundant, like the
(04:44):
thing that you came to do. You can't do anymore.
Fight for redundancy. So I fought, and it was really unpleasant,
but I finally secured it, which meant that I had
like almost a year's worth of salary. And what that
did was, even though it was absolutely humiliating and it
seemed to everyone like I'd been fired, and I may
as well have been fired because my time at this
(05:05):
company had been a disaster and I'd achieved nothing. I
had that amount of money that I could then use
to do my next thing. It brought me time. What
my redundancy brought me is time, and for some people
that might just be a month. For me, it was
about a year, and it enabled me to start a
blog and not earn anything for a year, which is
(05:29):
a huge amount of time because I certainly I didn't
earn anything from AMEA for more than a year. The
humiliation and the shame is very, very real. And I
think that the most important question to ask yourself is
was I made redundant because my skill set isn't applicable anymore?
Or was I made redundant because the company changed shape
(05:51):
and they had to restructure? And what you do next
depends on your answer to those two questions, because if
it's your skill set, then you have to pivot. You
have to really think, Okay, I loved being an illustrator,
but now it's all go on to graphic design, and
the skill that I had, the skill that I've always had,
is no longer applicable because of technology, because of whatever,
(06:13):
I need to find a different skill set and a
different way to get employed. If it's just that the
company change shape and you have valuable skills that could
just apply somewhere else, that's a different conversation and that's
a better situation to me. The way that I always
think about it is from both an employer point of
view and how I thought about it when I was
made redundant is they've freed my future.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, Like, my future has been freed. Even if you
lose your job, even if you are sacked, you freed
someone's future. It's like ending a relationship. Yeah. No one
wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't
want to be with them anymore. Nobody wants to be
in a job that they can't do. Like not really.
So ultimately, if you think about it, Okay, my future
has been freed.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
What next?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah? I think this is so important for women that
advocating for yourself and knowing when you are owed something,
And I think many listeners might not know where to
begin with those conversations like advocating for yourself and saying
hang on, my roles are no longer required. I'm oda redundancy, Like,
where did you start with those conversations? Did you get
(07:18):
a lawyer?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I didn't have a lawyer. In the beginning, I could
tell that they just wanted me to quit because of
course it's just easier, right, it's a problem they wouldn't
have to deal with. And then they tried to offer
me jobs that were really inappropriate.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Like they were like deploying you exactly, like and.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
They have to do that legally. But also I wasn't
qualified to do those jobs, like They're like, well, maybe
you could just be head of hair and makeup and
wardrobe what because I had a vagina, so you know,
you can do they offered you yeah, yeah, exactly, and
so not if there's anything wrong with that. But that's
not that's not what I came for. It's not my
skill set, it's not my background. It was hard. It
was really really hard because I just wanted to avoid confrontation.
(07:56):
I just wanted to go oh no, no, no, I just quit.
I'll just you know, I can't. I don't want to
go back. And I had a baby at the time,
a newborn and a seven year old, and I just
was like, I hate it here. Everyone hates me, I'm failing.
I just wanted to get away immediately, And the actual
negotiating the redundancy and fighting for what I was owed
(08:17):
made for an uncomfortable few weeks, but my god, it
was worth it because of what it brought me on
the other side.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, I also think for those listening and like where
both employers, I find most employers actually do want to
do good in the end for their employees. Like most
of the time it actually will give you what you're
asking for because they also want it to go away, or.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
They'll try because in almost every case, certainly every case
I've experienced as an employer, when we've had to make
people redundant, it's never about the people, like it literally
is never about the people. It's about needing to change
the shape of the business or skill sets that other
people have that replace this skill set, and it's about budgets,
Like it really comes down to budgets, and businesses are
(09:01):
called businesses for a reason. You can't just afford to
keep people on because you like them, unfortunately, so it
honestly isn't personal. So if you can just try to
keep your emotions in check as much as possible and
be really calm, and you want to leave in the
best way possible. You know. I've been so impressed with
(09:23):
people I know who have been made redundant in the
last year or so, and the way that they've left
their businesses has been so impressive and has really made
such a difference to their future employment prospects.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, you negotiate into a company with grace and you
put your best foot forward. And I think it's really
important to remember. I've heard it be called like elegantly
exit like, Yes, such a good thing to remember. Yeah,
and sometimes you do just have to take the high road. Yeah,
and just swallow your pride you do. On the not
(09:58):
taking it personally side of things, I think I saw
a headline that said something like shows over for MEA.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yes, I arranged to leave. I'd been part of launching
this new daytime show at Channel nine, and when I left,
they didn't tell me they were going to do this,
and I completely understand why they did. They asked the
show on that day, so it very much seemed like
I had been sacked, and it looked very bad, and
get I completely understand why they did that, and it
(10:28):
was so funny. I remember going home and my phone
was blowing up, and I just sat on my bed
with my laptop and my phone next to me. And
the big splash on all the news websites was because
there's a lot of publicity around Channel nine at that time,
and about women leaving Channel nine and things, and it
was just those kind of headline shows over for me,
a big pictures of me back when it was a
(10:50):
print newspaper, because this was almost twenty years ago, you know,
it was page three. It was like this big picture
of me, and I remember, as humiliating as it was,
I remember thinking to myself, Oh, well, at least everybody
will know that I'm available for employment, so the phone
will ring. And yet the phone never rang.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
To be honest, my reputation had been damaged so much
by the time i'd been at Channel nine for a
variety of reasons. It was the culture there at that
time was really bad. There'd been awful like leaks, and
it was just a very very bad culture. And my
reputation had really been trashed. And I'd had such a
great reputation from the fifteen years prior when I'd worked
(11:32):
in magazines. I worked really hard and I'd got to
the top of my field and it was like literally
wiped out in a matter of months, and so the
phone never rang, and I was so shocked by that.
I was so hurt and shocked and I lost all
my confidence. But I must have known. I must have
(11:54):
suspected because when I was planning my redundancy in that
last when I was thinking about leaving and telling them
I wanted a redundancy. And then in the few days
that I left, on the day my redundancy was announced,
I launched a pressed publish on Mamma Mea for my
first post because I knew that there'd be a lot
of media interest, and I was like, well, best I
(12:15):
capitalize on that because I'll have twenty four hours in
the news cycle.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
This was pre social media, of course, and I want
to make sure I people know where I am and
they know where to find me. So I did that.
My first post was about why I had left. But
I was very careful and have been careful to this
day to not trash anyone individually, to go with grace,
as you just said, elegantly exit And even though I
(12:42):
was personally devastated, bitter, angry, resentful, all of those things.
I held it in check and that was hard, but
I had something to do, so even though I wasn't
offered anything, I thought, I'll do this, I'll launched this
blog and I'll start it while I wait, while I
decide what's going to happen next. And I feel job
(13:02):
offers and those job offers never came, which is actually
really thing because it meant that I had to just
keep going.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I think this is so interesting. I feel like you
were taken to one of the scariest places, where it's
redundancy and then reputational damage and kind of being dragged
publicly in a way that is out of your control
and you're not going to retaliate. You just have to
suck it up. Yeah, I do think that would be
(13:29):
one of the scariest places to be taken to. How
do you rebuild your confidence?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Took a really long time. There's no easy way to
say it. It wasn't a magic pill, you know, after
the adrenaline of all of that wears off. And now
I guess everybody and I've read a lot of them
now makes those announcements on LinkedIn and the phrasing of
what you say is very important, and there's so As
you said, forty percent of the people who applied to
(13:56):
you out of two thousand had been made redundant. It's
a really really common thing. And it's not like people go, oh,
she's shit, she's got a bad smell about her because
she's made redundant. My reputation was destroyed not because of
my redundancy, but but what had happened during the time
I was there, and the stories that had been leaked
about me to the press that were not true, and
(14:19):
that sort of reputational smearing that happened while I was there,
and also the fact that the show I launched sort
of didn't work and wasn't very good, and I've got
to completely own that, and also the fact that I
should never have gone to this job because it wasn't
a real job. It was an idea, but it wasn't
a real job. But I was so keen to get it.
And this actually speaks to a mistake not to make
(14:40):
after a redundancy, because when I left magazines, it was
when I had my second child, and I knew I
was done with magazines, but I didn't know what I
wanted to do next. And I learned the hard way.
Never make a big career decision. For me, it's in
the twelve months after having a baby. For other people,
it might be less. For me. Usually coincides with the
(15:00):
amount of time that I'm breastfeeding. I didn't breastfeed her
for a year because I had a lot of problems
with that. But in that first few months, when I
was sleep deprived, hormonal, was having a really hard time,
I made the decision. I knew I wanted to leave magazines,
but I didn't know where I wanted to go. This
job was offered to me, and I went sure, and
I jumped at it, and it was really stupid because
(15:21):
I didn't think carefully enough and it wasn't enough of
a job, so I didn't do my due diligence. I
didn't really prosecute that decision.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
Well.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So back to never make an emotional decision. That's a
really important thing to keep in mind after a redundancy,
because you know, it's almost like heartbreak. The first person
who comes along and looks at you, you're like, oh,
you do like me, okay, And they might be a dickhead, yeah,
but you're just so desperate for some validation that you
want to be very careful about the thing you do next.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
That's so fascinating because I actually listened to a podcast
and I think it was recommended by Jesse Stevens, and
it was about intuition and it said at the time
to never trust your intuition. And it's when you're going
through a huge emotion change. It actually labels like a breakup,
but motherhood would totally be one too, Like your intuition
is completely off.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, during moments like that's exactly right for me. I
was just not thinking clearly, and it took me a
long time to recover from it, and it took me
a long time to build my confidence back up and
build my reputation. It took me a really, really long time.
But I don't think that's the case after redundancy. I
was actually funny enough speaking to someone yesterday who'd just
been made redundant in quite a high profile way, but
(16:35):
it was very clear that it was nothing to do
with her. It was just a restructure of the company
and she was actually feeling great about it. You know,
I know a lot of people who've actually been through
it lately, and you see the twin sides of the
hurt and the of course it's humiliating and you feel ashamed,
but you get over that and the decision you make
(16:55):
next is one that can change everything.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah, I think internally it hurts more externally, like the
optics really aren't bad, and no one's thinking, no, you
should have your job.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
No. It's like as an employer. Also, I'll often look
at CVS and there'll be someone who's been somewhere for
a year, and I probably stayed at this job. I
probably should have left much earlier, but I was so
worried about how it would look. A lot of people
have that experience of just going somewhere for a year.
The question is the narrative you tell I've had it, Yeah, exactly,
we've had it. And the question is how anything can
(17:27):
be explained with the right narrative. The thing not to
do is to say anything negative, whether you were made redundant,
whether you lost your job, whether you quit because the
place was a nightmare. The point is the narrative that
you tell to your next prospective employer.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, I completely agree, and I think.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
What would you say? What did you when people were like, oh,
you're only there for a little bit of time. And
also people love a bit of gossip. Yeah, and to
me bad if you're interviewing someone and you're like, oh,
what happened, and it's like, the minute they start bad mouthing,
even though partly you do want to know the goss,
the minute they start bad mouthing their former employer, for me,
that's disqualifying.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
One hundred percent. My narrative has always been when to
build X skill set, achieved, that learned a lot, was
always gearing up to do this next thing.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yea. And even if you say it wasn't for me
for these reasons, or you say I was made redundant
for these reasons, you just got to own it.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
I think I agree. I think the narrative, it's all
about the narrative. You're an employer. How do you view redundancies?
Do you see them as a red flag?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I see redundancies as an opportunity. So there's been a
huge number of redundancies in media lately, and the first
thing we do is see who's been made redundant and
often have a conversation with them, see if the skill
set of that person and the experience of that person
could fit into our company. Because every business is a
different shape so all the reasons that someone's been made
(18:50):
redundant from one place probably doesn't apply to you. So
anyone who's been made redundant my years always pick up
and I'm like, oh, I'm literally how could we find
a way to fit them in? And you've got to
be careful as an employer, because you don't want to
shoehorn someone in just because they're great on paper, or
you've got to make sure that you've got the right
hole for whatever shape they are. But it certainly doesn't
(19:13):
put me off such.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
A good perspective. It's an opportunity for the individual, and
it's an opportunity for business owners, like yeah, in the
tech world, we will get sent lists of all these
amazing engineers talent that have been laid off at other
tech companies, and we look through it like, fuck, yeah,
can we here?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Can we? Absolutely? And so that's why you don't have
to have your tail between your legs. You just have
to own it. And that doesn't mean you can't say
to a future employee, yeah, I was really disappointed. I
loved it there, or I understand why it happened. I mean,
that's if you can ever say I completely understand was
I disappointed, Sure, but it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, love that. Okay, we'll have to do a follow
up episode on how to stay in a job for
twelve months when you ate it?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Oh yeah, man? And should I have just pulled the
pin on that first day when I went and I
knew it wasn't right. When I'd been trying to work
out with my then about to be boss, We've been
trying to land on a title and we just couldn't
land on one. And that's a red flag, which I
hadn't realized because I had baby brain at the time,
and also because I hadn't really moved companies before. I'd
(20:15):
worked in one for one employer until then. But on
that first day, I went and introduced myself to someone
in the next office next to me, and they're like, oh,
what do you do? And I said, I'm the creative
services director and they went, that's my title?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
And I should have known yeah that day.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Okay, Yeah, project red flags and employers as well.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
You know what's funny, Michelle, I thought this topic might
only be relevant to like a certain segment of our listeners,
but that is some of the most wise career advice
that is so broadly applicable to anyone. How good is
hearing another woman's story to give you perspective on your
own situation, Like I'm just thinking about hearing me I
(21:05):
talk about her reputation and how literally her redundancy was
splashed over these insane headlines. I the other day was
worried about my reputation because I accidentally posted the same
LinkedIn post twice and I was like, people are going
to think I'm a mourn and she's like, they're with headlines.
Bit of perspective, not to make me feel bad, but
in terms of lessons that I'm going to commit to
(21:25):
my long term memory and just think about them all
the time. They're so relevant to everyone in their career. One,
it's not personal, it's situational. I actually say that to
myself in so many cases at work. So I think
that part where you guys were talking about when you
get made redundant, it's either the skills or the company
structure that needs to change.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
So this idea that.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
It's not personal it's actually situational, I think relieves so
much of the kind of emotional pressure that we put
on ourselves. And I think that's just broadly applicable to
so many things at work. I actually read the other
day that in terms of your skills in your job,
one third of people's roles are going to be affected
by AI. So I think this idea of like, you
probably are going to need to change your skills, company
(22:05):
structures probably are going to change, and I think just
being able to recognize that it's nothing wrong with you,
it's just that we have to adapt and change. I
thought that was very cool.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Also your mindset around this, so just making the distinction
that it's not personal, it's the situation because we probably
all are going to be faced with this relatively soon.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I loved the part around keep your emotions in check
and have grace that elegant exit. It's just you know,
again like applying that to so many situations at work.
I say to myself all the time, like, just try
to have grace in this situation. How do you want
to show up? And just don't trash people, like in general,
don't go around trashing people at work. The second point
(22:47):
was around when Mia said, you know, it was a
hard conversation, but that lasted for about two weeks, and
then on the other side of it was so much goodness.
I think that is something you can apply to so
many situations at work. It's this acute, short term pain
that we feel and then the long term benefit is
so worth it. So just like be willing to have
(23:07):
that difficult conversation at the time and then just know
that there's something really good on the other side.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, not like cutting yourself short because you're trying to
escape an uncomfortable situation.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah, that's so it. And then the last one, it
was around every situation is recoverable and owning your narrative. Again,
for me, like just this idea. I found it so
refreshing that. Yeah, she talked about the toxic culture there
and all these problems with you know, there wasn't actually
a role for her instructure and things like that. But
I also really loved her honesty around you know, she
had this big project and it didn't really work. She
(23:38):
was so non emotional and objective about this failure. And
I feel like we all talk about, oh, yeah, learn
from your failure, and you know, failing is good, but
it never feels like that because no one really talks
about times when they have failed. So I just loved
that she talked about something that didn't work, and like
she's been a rocket ship since then. So I just
think owning your narrative, knowing that you have choices and
(24:00):
there are things that you can do. Even to her
point right, LinkedIn didn't exist at the time. Now we've
all got a play and you can sort of you
can course correct, you can kind of position things in
the way you want to position them, and like everything
is recoverable. So yeah, those are the three lessons that
I am going to take away from this interview, and
thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
I think those were great things to drive home. That
last one in particular, she did just own that that
show was basically a flop and there was nothing much
else to it. It was just like, yeah, it didn't work.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
It was so unemotional. I feel like we've all got
this whenever we talk about our failures. It's sort of
like it has to be this big thing. It's just like,
very objectively, the show didn't work. Again, back to that
thing around, It wasn't personal. It doesn't mean she is
bad at her job or will be forever. It's just
like the show didn't work. Whatever, move on, and I
just yeah, that's definitely my favorite too.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
The biggest takeaway from today's episode is that redundancy isn't personal,
it's situational. As Mia showed us, it can actually be
the push you need towards something much better. And here's
a practical tip. If you're going through a redundancy, head
to the fair Work website. There'll be a link in
our show notes. They have a fantastic calculated tool that
you can put in all your employment details and you
(25:17):
can actually find out exactly what pay out you're entitled to.
For more career advice and weekly work tips, make sure
you're subscribed to our biz newsletter. We have everything in
there for you. And also don't forget to follow us
on Instagram at biz by Mama Mia. We are constantly
posting there and you can even save our little posts
because that's literally what I've been doing. Mamma Mia acknowledges
(25:47):
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on
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