Absolutely Everything Is Feminism’s Fault!

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to
Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
I'm Holly Wayne, I'm mea.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
And here's what's landed on our agenda for today, Friday,
the twenty seventh of June, Another day, another man hosting
a panel of women to debate whether feminism has failed.
And there's a new breed of feminists called a maternal
feminist that's making some women on this podcast at least
a little bristly.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Also, what can we learn from Taylor Swift's date night dressing?

Speaker 1 (00:51):
And I don't know if you're watching the new season
of DCC, but it's actually packed these gas lighting the
sex money drama we are going to be unpacking.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
That does a lot to talk about. First of all,
Jesse Stevens.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
In case he missed it, apparently I might have cortersole face.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Oh what's cartersold face?

Speaker 3 (01:08):
Cortersold face is when your face is puffy, apparently, and
you may be hearing the word cortisol a lot lately,
you might be hearing it in the context of like
there's a quarterisole diet or signs of high cortisole like
apparently your eye twitching or your ears ringing or something
like that. And even apparently there's a quartisole cocktail that
doesn't follow me.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
That's fine, Off, drink cordiso.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
It's cortisol.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Good cortisol pad so.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Cortisol is the body's primary stress hormone, and allegedly it
can make your face puffy, hence cortisole face.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Look doctors stressed, does my face puff up? I thought
when I was stressed, I just looked more haggard even
than usual.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
That's what I thought too.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
I haven't noticed the puffiness, And doctors wanted on the
record that this is not a thing. You're not going
to walk into the doctor and they're going to go, Holly, Wayne, Right,
you got that quarterizole face again.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
I mean, I shouldn't let someone diagnose me on social media.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
No, you shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Look.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
What annoys me is the corptoring of the language. And
if you're feeling stressed, that's so fine, But just say
that you're feeling stressed, rather than to all of these symptoms, which,
by the way, could be symptoms of anything anything else.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
You know what, Jesse, It's just occurred to me. You
know how people always say, and I don't know if
this is true, that people who live in really cold
climates like the Inuit, they have a thousand words for
snow because they have some kinds of stuff. Do you
think we've just invented a thousand ways of saying that
we're stressed up emotionally? It's regulated. My cortisol is high.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think because we're adrenal burst?

Speaker 3 (02:37):
Exactly right? I think you're spot on high.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
The feminism movement didn't unite women.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
It's split women.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
I feel totally.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Wait listen, fifty percent of young women don't want to
have children. They're really preoccupied with making money and materialism.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
But we're still looking at society that is increasingly telling
women where they could be better. But sometimes feminism expected
women to be prioritized and both sexes want the privileges
without the responsibilities.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Can I just said we are producing women and men
who are and I'll tell you what I mean by that.
It'll be an interesting discussion. Will be an interesting discussion though,
Or is it just.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Let me explain what we were just listening to. Friends.
Everyone in podcasting, there is this podcast called Diary of
a CEO. Right, It's one of the biggest podcasts in
the world. It's hosted by this young British entrepreneur and
investi called Stephen Bartlett. He's also like a judge on
the English version of Shark Tank. Like he's a big deal. Right.
He's very earnest and he's interested in everything, allegedly, and

(03:36):
his episodes are marked by their extraordinary length. This one
fourteen hours.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
There's two and a half hours.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
This one was many hours of my life.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
We listened so you don't have to.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
And also their extraordinary success. He says that he started
this back in twenty seventeen to get inside the heads
of other CEOs because he was obviously this very young,
successful dude. And now it gets around, he says, ten
million listens and views a month. It's big, big, big.
He is also kind of I don't know, I'll ask
you if you agree with this Jesse. He says he's
politically agnostic, so he will and does have pretty much

(04:09):
anyone the big voice on there, and he's not afraid
of like a bit of a culture war biff or
a bit of pseudoscience. He doesn't really have a point
of view.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
No, I don't think so. And his audience, I would say,
are made up of men and women, Like I don't
think he's probably appeals to men in the same way
that like a Joe Rogan. I think he's different to
a Joe Rogan.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
And he has lots of different kinds of people, and
he has celebrities on, and he has business leaders on,
and he has psychologists on, etc. Anyway, let's get to this.
This week's episode is called the Feminism Debate. Is feminism
betraying women? Question mark? The hidden risk of casual sex?
Exclamation point? And is feminism creating lonely, broken, sexless men
question mark exclamation point.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
So that's feminism in capitals. That's an important I think
it might be.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
It is.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
And the guests are Louise Perry. We've had her on
No Filter. She is a journal and author. Deborah Francis
White and Erica Kommissar. I'll tell you a little bit
about who they are too. They were chosen for this debate,
I think for their quite specific feminist positions. Louise is
very anti sex positive culture. She's very convincing on why
she thinks that's been very bad for women. Deborah is

(05:18):
a pretty straightforward, like liberal second wave feminist. Really, she's
the host of the Guilty Feminist podcast and books, and
she's worried about creeping puritanical values. Right and Erica's area
of expertise, apparently, Jesse has thoughts is childhood development and attachment.
She has a very traditional view about early parenthood. So

(05:38):
we're basically discussing sex, mothering, and work. What could possibly
go wrong? My first question is why, because we're seeing
I feel like we're seeing quite a lot of this
around at the minute. Like Piers Morgan had a feminist
debate reach.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
This is the second feminist debate I've watched against your
will because I watched, against my will of high profile
men bringing in the ladies with opposing views to argue.
And before we get into it, I was kind of
resistant to doing this as a segment because I reject
the premise of debating feminism. If you believe that feminism

(06:13):
is about women having equal rights to men, are we
actually debating that? I agree with the point of it.
It just feels very clickbaity rage baity.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
That's why I want to prosecute why right, because I'm
seeing a lot of this around at the minute, and
it's very YouTube stock standard at the minute to get
a trad wife and get a second wave feminist and
get them to biff on about stuff like debating feminism,
which again to me, me or I feel a bit
like you do, Like I thought that was kind of
sortid is hot right now?

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah? Like, are we going to give back the vote?
Are we debating whether we should stop wearing pants or
having access to our own bank accounts? What actually are
we debating? Fair?

Speaker 2 (06:47):
And why Jesse? Why are we seeing it all over everywhere?

Speaker 3 (06:50):
I actually think this is an important exercise and I
found it interesting, if not at times in raging, and
I disagreed with a lot of it. I agreed with
some of it, but a social movement like feminism, which
has evolved over time and has had multiple waves and
involved so many different demographics and is now facing very

(07:12):
modern problems. There was a point made early in the
podcast about how some women have felt bullied by feminism,
and they kind of talked about this maternal feminism being
a way to address a gap that's existed in a
lot of feminist theory, which is that they've not quite
known what to do with motherhood. In order to get
women into the workplace, I had to devalue motherhood to

(07:33):
an extent. And so what's happened as a result is
that women who find themselves making the choice to stay
at home or by necessity or whatever it is, have
gravitated towards whether it's the you know, child wife phenomenon
or conservatism, because that's the only place that like they.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Feel valued honors what they do.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
And I think that that is dangerous in a problem.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
I agree. I mean, I think that in some ways
feminism has really I shouldn't say feminism has done a
bad job of selling the message. But if people think
that feminism is about all women should work and not
be home, and that somehow women who's stay home with
children and lower down on the leaderboard of what it
means to be a good woman or a good feminist
than women who work outside the home, that's certainly not

(08:17):
how I see feminism.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, I reject that that's what feminism thinks.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
I think that the reason why we're having debates about
feminism right now is because probably in the twenty tens.
I think there was probably a bit of overall progress, right.
We remember Beyonce with the feminist behind her, and then
there was the Me Too movement, which was like this
enormous kind of cultural conversation, and experts and like sociologists

(08:42):
and anthropologists will often say that what happens is that
when you make strides, there is inevitably a backlash. There
is then like an analysis of what just happened, and
I think we're probably in that moment now. I also
think that at the intersection, and Louise Perry said this,
and I thought it was very true of technology and
the economy forcing a renegotiation of like gender norms and

(09:04):
what the role of men are and what the role
of women are. And that feels quite urgent right now,
Like we saw with adolescents, I think it's a really
urgent conversation about young boys and about women working in childcare.
That's another conversation that's like very very urgent. And I
think that probably the.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Well, you say it's urgent, but it's as Hollywood always
reminds us, women have worked since the beginning of time.
Working class women have always worked. Women have had the
opportunity to work pretty much since the Second World War
and particularly in the last generation. I just don't understand
what we're debating.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
We've seen it in government in Australia recently, and I
know that it's happening around the world too, is like
childcare subsidies, things like that, whether women want the childcare
subsidies or whether they want maternity leave. And in the US,
I think that was it was interesting, right because two
were from the UK and one was from the US,
and I thought we're arguing different things here because you
come from different contexts well.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
And also I think you could argue that in the
particularly in the US, at the minute, it feels kind
of urgent women's rights are being rolled.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
Back, so that quite literally, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
My feeling about this because I'm seeing everywhere and I
feel like we're being tricked, right, because all of those
things are so real, and questions about how we pay
for childcare, whether we even shoued or you know, all
of those things are really important. But it feels to
me that at the moment, feminism is the current scapegoat
for everything that's wrong with the world. Right, so men

(10:32):
and loneliness and depression. Definitely, feminism's fault. Higher rates of
anxiety and mental health issues going on in young people,
Feminism's fault. Definitely. There's a woman on this table, not
on this table, Stephen Bartlett's table, Erica, who thought there
was a very direct link between kids not having mothers
at home in their early years and anxiety and depression,
an increasingly pornographically addicted culture and all the associated problems

(10:56):
with that. Definitely feminism's fault. More single people, falling birth rates,
feminism's fault. Divorce obviously, feminism's fault. Devaluing of motherhood, feminism's fault.
And it's like, all of those things are real, but
whose fault they are is the most complicated question, so
it has nothing in this model. This Stephen Bartlett likes

(11:17):
saying to that, and I'm not necessarily blaming him, He's
an interesting guy, but saying, you know, do you think
it's women's fault that men are anxious and lonely or
that men don't feel they have a place anymore? Like
it's convenient that we're not asking bigger, more complicated questions
that aren't a sexy for podcast headlines, because a lot
of this has to do with the changing nature of
the economy, and the fact that a lot of traditional

(11:38):
jobs that men used to do don't exist anymore. A
lot of this has to do with technology, a lot
of this has to do with capitalism, a lot of
this has to do with social media, and the people
benefiting from most of those things are men, and the
most powerful people in the world are still men. So
it feels like a trick that we're all being blamed
because we're greedy, feminine.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
And it's also like we're going to get the three
women on to fix it when I think that the
two biggest things that you just touched on there. One
is the declining birth rate. I think that is a
panic that is happening all over the world right now
where people are going, we are not at replacement rate,
and that is an actual issue. So we need women
to have more bab And I don't think it is
feminism's fault. I think that it's an economic story.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Well, hang on, it actually is because if women don't
have equal rights and they don't get to choose whether
they leave their husbands or have jobs, or get paid
the same amount, or use or use contraception, or have
access to abortion, they are going to stay home and
have more babies because I have no choice.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
Well, I think it's also something having a baby is
something that women do with men, so to me, that's
a relational conversation. And the other thing that I think
is a really big one is cost of living and
the fact that you needed two income household in order
to afford a house. There was a comment that was like, look,
maybe if families would just not buy the.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
Holiday house then go to Europe so much.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
Exactly, and it's like, no, no, no, You've got two full
time working parents who are going how are we going
to get the childcare done? Who are then choosing care
or whatever they need to and then they're being like
double shamed for that. And I just need a moment
on Erica Commissar because as someone who exists on Instagram
and TikTok, she is stalking me, She's everywhere, she is

(13:24):
popping up all of the time, and she says deliberately
inflammatory things. And I almost didn't want to repeat it
on this podcast because I think that it is so
upsetting to mothers in particular, but also fathers. Sending your
child to childcare is a day orphanage, which is a
contradiction in terms that actually doesn't even make sense.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Very inflammatory.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
It's so inflammatory, And what I want to say about
it is that she is looking at correlation and causation.
She's looking at ADHD and kids and mental health issues,
and she's going, well, daycare, it has to be that
you're putting them in the care of strangers and they're
all screaming and they're all upset, and she's saying that
as a psychoanalyst. She's sitting there as a psychoanalyst. But

(14:04):
I don't think that's where it's coming from. And I've
said on this podcast before, I'm happy for research to
be unpopular, and sometimes it is, and I think that's important.
I went deep because I went if there is a
paper that is proving that sending your child to childcare
is causing attachment issues which then results in ADHD, that's massive,
like we should absolutely be talking about that. It doesn't exist,

(14:27):
like it genuinely is not evidence based. And she comes
from a very Christian conservative background, which is fine.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
She calls herself a maternal feminist, so she says she
believes in women having choices, but that they should forego
some of those choices when they have children. That the
needs of the child, should you surp any.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
And she'll say something that is evidence based, and then
she'll say some truth in that, but then she'll throw
out a word like narcissism, as though the narcissism of mothers.
She's saying, you know, you have a baby, and then
you want to go on a holiday and leave the baby.
I'm like, who who's leaving the baby? Like, you don't
think that you can still be a primary caregiver while having,

(15:06):
you know, someone else, Like it's Eric, I pushed.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
A lot of my buttons. Unsurprisingly, I'm trying to remain
calmt because the thing that's really interesting about this kind
of just asking questions debate, right because you know, I
said my thing before about how I think we're being
tricked a bit in a sort of culture war that's
trying to make young women in particular feel that they've
been tricked somehow by feminism and that a simpler, happier

(15:30):
life would be one where they had fewer choices. We
see that a lot. That's tradwife stuff. We look at
it a lot. But the reason why this kind of
debate is really interesting is I was listening to Erica
and I was thinking about my son, and I was
thinking about how I went back to work pretty early
and we did put him in childcare quite young because
of various circumstances. And then I'm going, oh, is that why?

(15:51):
Maybe that's why this, this and this, Maybe that's it.
And then it pushes by buttons. I'm like, oh, yeah,
she must be right. I'm a terrible person. And then
you know what I mean, it immediately starts to eternalize.
And the thing is that why this stuff is tricky
is that these three smart women who are good at arguing,
and they were all good at arguing, got through all
the sort of push button issues all the way from

(16:11):
should a man open a door for a woman like
who gives a shit honestly? Through to staying at home
through to pornography, all these things, and they're really engaging
interesting discussions, but it all seems to just end up
back on women's laps. Whether it's whether or not my kid,
you know, has particular issues because I went back to work,
or whether women are being violently abused in the name

(16:34):
of pornography and it's because women are too sexually liberated.
It all ends up back on our laps.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, I was interested in because it wasn't just about motherhood.
There was a lot about sex, and particularly that's Louise
Perry's area of interest. And she's written about how hook
up culture has been really great for men but not
good for women because generally women are more inclined to
want emotional connection and be very unsatisfied and devalued and

(17:03):
suffer from low self esteem and all of those things
through casual sex, and that she believes that women should
only have sex with someone after they're engaged, which is
interesting because that means that everyone's marrying the first person
they have sex with, right, presuming that engagement leads to marriage.
And she was also saying, as was Erica, they kept

(17:25):
talking about too much choice, and we do know that
if people are given too much choice, they get paralyzed,
they don't know what to do. People do prefer less choice.
But they both kept talking about there needs to be
more rules and more structure, and I kept sort of
shouting at the phone, just like, but what do you mean?
Do you mean that women shouldn't be allowed to have

(17:47):
sex with men unless they were engaged? Do you mean
that women shouldn't be allowed to work until their children
were three years old, Like, what are you actually saying?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
The point I thought was strong on that, and I
heard it by a very liberal feminist said in a
podcast recently which she referred to something I'm gonna bungle it,
but it was something like the relief of responsibility or
the relief of duty.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
So let's get the government and men to make rules
for us, because I don't.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Know much better what she was talking about. She was
talking about when you're in a position where your life
so for example, let's say you have a job, there
is actually some relief to knowing where to go every day,
to having structure in your life. And for men, it's
like there is relief in knowing what the role of
a dad is and that the role of a dad
is not to leave and go and sleep with one

(18:34):
hundred women on the weekend. Like humans actually really like
being responsible to other people. And that's what I think
is strong in it that you go okay in terms
of community. I see men that I young, men that
I know, and women I suppose that are in this
state of not quite knowing what their job is or

(18:56):
what their role is, or who they're responsible to or
how they should spend their time, and that doesn't mean
they should be forced.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
So you're saying that there's something to be said for
gender roles and throwing them out. That's actually agree with that.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
That's actually not so much about gender roles. I think
it's just about responsibility to other people, and I'm allergic
to sort of a hyper hyper individualized models, which I
think is again nothing true with feminism and everything to
capitalism is I think that there is something important about
being beholden and responsible to other people. I think it

(19:26):
makes us feel safer.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
For sure. But you know, there's a lot of things
said in this conversation and many conversations like this, that
were really true and interesting and worth turning over. But
the way that it just keeps coming back to, we
need some very specific rules about it, you know, because
even when they're talking about gender roles and parenting, of
course there are differences between men and women. Of course,
there are all those things. The way that they were

(19:48):
talking about it completely ignored the whole idea that men
have also benefited a lot from these roles being blurred,
which they have. Yes, I see and know so many
fathers who get an enormous amount of joy and pleasure
out of being the kind of involved parent that doesn't
necessarily mean they're stay at home twenty four to seven

(20:10):
Paris that they didn't get, you know what I mean, Like,
when you've got the very very rigid view that women
do the caring and men do the providing and that's it.
It doesn't only put all of the onus of caring
and all of the work associated with that on women unpaid,
but it also robs men of all the joys of
it because they are literally removed from the family unit

(20:32):
and their only job is to bring home the meat.
And it's kind of like, don't we all kind of
instinctively know that a bit of everything is good and
that also some people are more suited to this and
some people are more suited to that, and you can
work it out in a familial way.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
And that kind of fifties and I think there is
something maybe particularly in the US model of a wife
and a husband was not utopia, Like it was really
really toxic in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Well that I want to touch on that for a second,
because one of Louise Perry's points about hookup culture is
so terrible and monogamy is the best state for women.
I think that there is some truth in that. I
think that she was saying that women are particularly young women,
are being sold this idea that it's really liberating to
have attachment free sex, to sleep with a different person

(21:22):
every night, to be on the apps, to not have relationships,
but to just have sex. And there will always be
some people that that is good for, and of course
everybody should be able to choose. But I do agree
that if we are trying to convince women to be
ashamed that they want to get married or ashamed somehow
they're letting the side down, or they're not a feminist

(21:43):
because they want a boyfriend, or they want to be
monogamous and casual sex isn't their thing. I do think
that it's important again, both options are really.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
But as Deborah said in this is that I don't
think that is what young women are being told. You
still see overwhelmingly that the ideal that they are being
told is to get married, and overwhelmingly we're excited about
engagements and weddings and relationships. I think that all of
this is about people being allowed to make choices that
work for them, and for a very very long time,

(22:15):
women were shamed in all kinds of ways for being
sexual in any way, you know what I mean, and
that so it's I don't know. I just think we
shouldn't even though we just have to a point. I
don't think we should allow ourselves to be tricked into
this idea. As you started off by saying here that
feminism is up for debate and that feminism is the
cause of all the problems of the world, and just

(22:35):
a few more podcasts round tables about it where we
get to say things like are feminists responsible for all
the angry men? Is like really going to solve it out, louders.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
I have strong feelings about this season of the Dallas
Cowboy Cheerleaders, which is brought to you by spraytnds and
gas lighting. We're going to be unpacking it after this
break out, Louders. We've got a listener dilemma, and we
need your collective wisdom to help us and our partners
YUWI to solve it. Here is the problem. I'm thirty three,

(23:06):
child free by choice, and I have a close friend
Sarah Sarah who has two young kids aged four and seven.
We've been mates for over a decade, but lately I'm
dreading whenever she asks to come over to my place.
When she brings her kids over, it honestly is chaos.
They touch everything, leave sticky fingerprints on my white walls,
jump on my furniture, and last time one of them
broke a ceramic VARs that had sentimental value. Sarah barely

(23:29):
supervises them and just says kids will be kids. I've
tried suggesting we meet at Park's kid friendly cafes or
her place, but she always has excuses her house is
too messy or she needs a change of scenery. I
think she genuinely doesn't realize how stressful it is for me.
I love Sarah and I don't want to lose our friendship,
but I'm starting to resent her visits. Am I being unreasonable?

(23:50):
How do I have this conversation without sounding like I
hate children? So the question is, if you've got friends
like this and she asks to come over, what do
you do next?

Speaker 3 (23:58):
Jesse Stevens, the children are not coming to your home anymore.
You are not obliged to have those children in your home.
I don't think I totally get it. It's like you
are just waiting for them to push over a vase
or break the tell vision and then things get really,
really awkward. I think you've got to keep pushing the park.
Go to the places where they jump on the trampolines
and they break their arms. Go do that.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
It's unpopular opinion. I don't like seeing my girlfriends with
their children. I don't have.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
Someone in that stage.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah, it's unavoidable, that's not true nighttime, but you haven't
always got a babysitter like it is unavoidable. But I
think that Sarah in this instance isn't being a very
good friend, because you can tell, unless you're completely unself aware,
you can tell if you take your kids to someone's
house whether they're happy for them to be there or not,
or if they are in a state of anxiety and

(24:43):
moving things out of the whale. Time I find was Sarah,
I wouldn't take my kids around.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
So what do you say to Sarah. I've got an idea.
Don't have a big conversation about how you never want
to do it anymore. You've just got to take each
thing as it comes. And there's always a reason. I'm
so sorry the cleaners are going to be here today.
I've got a trade here. There's always a reason. And
then there just keeps being reasons.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Buy a dog that bites people and be like, I'm
so sorry my dog bite your children.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
I think MEA's ideas are slightly better today.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Out loud as what would you do next? Share your
thoughts in the Mama Mea out Loud Facebook group, and
if you have a dilemma, send it to us at
out loud at mammamea dot com dot are you, We'd
love to help you.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
There was a story in the Good Weekend Over the
Weekend called date Night Dressing. Taylor Swift makes an effort,
and so can we. The writer Damien will Know says,
it reminds your loved one of their initial attraction to
you and proves to you that you can still flirt
with fashion.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
So getting dressed up?

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yes? Now, Maya, you know how to describe clothes better
than I do.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
I do?

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Can you please describe in this audio medium, yea, what
Taylor Swift looks like on date night?

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Go out? They seem to do date night quite a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, whenever they're outside together, they're photographed, and they do
go out to dinner a lot, either with other couples
or just together, and they are always dressed up. But
then Travis is always dressed up because he's a man
who likes fashion tailors like a.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Fun, jaunty little hat he does.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
It really was interesting that this. I didn't see this
story over the weekend, but I was actually looking at
some of the pictures of Taylor and Travis because they
were out again last week, and I was thinking, to myself, God,
she makes an effort heels. She's always wearing heels. She
was wearing a flippy little skirt. She's wearing the millennial
equivalent of Holly's jeans and a nice top. So what

(26:33):
jeans and a nice top were for gen x, Millennial
dressing is like a flippy little skirt, a nice little
tight top, and either ankle boots or heels.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
And you said she never wears trainers, and I said,
to you or trackies. She dresses like a millennial. And
I can say that because I'm a millennial. That is
how I'm millennial coded. We millennials dresser.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
And he dresses like it's always very coordinated. He loves fashion,
and NFL players in America really do. It's very different
like footy players in Australia who do just turn up
in the team track seat or their Stubbicks or whatever.
But in a Merica, it's like a lot of them
are fashion plates. They have contracts, they're sponsored by big
fashion housards, so they'll wear like a full Louis Vouton outfit,

(27:18):
and he likes matching things.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
I have thoughts about date night dressing because when I
saw that headline about datelight dressing, I was like, yes,
because I'm in a long term relationship. We've been together
for twenty years. It's a long time, right, and if
we're going out on a date night, we do have
date nights, and it's usually just a pop trivia which
no one's dressing up for. But if we were going
out for Travison Taylor type dinner, yeah, I would want

(27:44):
Brent to dress up, and I would have quite specific
thoughts about what I would like him to wear. However,
if you turn that lens on me and went and
this isn't true because he couldn't give a shit, But
let's imagine Brent likes you in heels. I like you
in heels, wear heels for me, you know what I mean?
I would feel icky about that, right, like I know

(28:06):
couples who he'll say, I love it when you wear skirts,
wear more skirts. Right now, that's all the same thing
as me in a way, or is it? This is
what I want me to tell me, as me saying
to Brent, babe that shirt?

Speaker 1 (28:19):
No?

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Can we can we please wear something that because I
do want him to look as if he's made an effort.
And very often when you see a typical couple out
on a date in an ordinary kind of place, very
often she'll be quite dressed up and he will not.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
And that's why you're allowed to tell him to put
on a nice.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
So am I? So that's my question? Yeah, there are
their gender rules about date night dressing.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
I think so because the women are so often setting
the standard, like women aren't feminists going in a stained
shirt that smells a bit funny, like women generally aren't.
But on Taylor, I think por Taylor, right, I often
think about I feel sorry for Taylor because she doesn't
have the privilege of going out in their truckies.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
You could go in the back door.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
She's gonna be photographed. And also, as you say, Hollie,
she's going to a Michelon Star restaurant, which we're not.
We're going to the local pub. So I can wear
my active wear to the local pub.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
But Taylor enjoys it. Clearly you can tell she's someone
who likes playing with clothes, who likes wearing clothes.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
So is it okay to want your partner to dress
up for date night?

Speaker 1 (29:19):
I think it's not about what they're wearing. I think
that the desire you have for them to dress up
is not about their clothes. It's about making an effort
for you, as you said exactly. It's making an efforts
you exactly, and it's saying I care what you think
of me. That's why I have this conversation with my
partner a lot about if there's something that he wears

(29:39):
that I particularly don't like, he should not wear it
because which I agree with, it'll wear the other way around.
I mean, he doesn't really comment on my clothes except goodness,
which is the correct.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Response Jason and everyone else.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Exactly. And you say, well, like, who do we dress for?
And that's what this gets to the bottom of who
do we dress for? When you are going on a
date or a date night. Who are you actually dressing for?
When you go to someone's wedding or someone's engagement or
or someone's birthday party? Who were you dressing for? Are
you signaling to them? I care about you, and I
have tried hard with my clothes out of respect to you,

(30:18):
because I'm acknowledging that this is special and I want
to look a bit special for you.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
I think too that and this is a fashion word
that I'm starting to try to use. It elevates how
you feel. So I go. We very rarely go on
date nights, but we went, you know, a little while
ago for an anniversary. And it's like, I like the
idea that you put on a like local will put
on a fragrance or like you're kind of I don't know,
shave dressing it exactly.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Let it feels special. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
And then when I'm sitting there, it's not about whether
or not he thinks I look pretty, but it's more
me sitting there going I feel like this occasion is special.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
That I'm to take for granted, because I want to
know you're not taking me for granted. The thing that's
different for me, I suppose in my relationship is that
I get dressed up for work, and I have this
weird thing in my bad. If I'm not going to work,
I'm not getting dressed up so I will never get
dressed up to go, which is so weird. Like when

(31:19):
I'm out in public, I'm not a Taylor Swift, but
when I'm out in public or going to a restaurant
or whatever, I will wear trackies and I will wear trainers,
and I will wear no makeup or if I'm going
out on the weekend or whatever, because to me, getting
dressed up signals.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Work, and maybe the intimacy if you were doing that
on a date night is like this is me, like
real me, you know what I mean, Like not real you,
but like a version of you that only you get
to see you.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Often, when you're in a long term relationship, you will
get dressed up to go to work, to go and
see friends, to do whatever, and then the time that
you can let it all hang out is at home.
So there are many cases that your partner will only
see you dressed like that, and so sometimes it's nice
to remind them.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
They yeah, that's why, Like going to a wedding together
is nice or something like that. But the other night,
I was putting on earnks because I was going to
see some friends, and Luca was like, how are you
putting on it? I haven't seen you in earrings for months.
I have a waste an earring on Luca.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
But also you have a toddler who would pulled the.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
Yeah, exactly right. I'm like these are for me because
I'm going out with some friends and I feel like
I'll feel better if I have them on. But the
idea of getting dressed up for each other, I think
that there are also other ways to show intimacy.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
As you say after the break, We've got recommendations and
I have something I need to share with the group
out louders.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
If you want to listen to us every day of
the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on
Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a Mum and Me a subscriber.
Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and
support us. And a big thank you to all our
current subscribers.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
So I have something I need to share with the group.
I need a bit of counseling from my girls. So
I'm about to go on a big holiday, which is
very exciting. I have been planning saving for this holiday
for born the year. We're going on a family holiday.
We're going to see my family right and then go
on holiday together with them will be great.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
When you think about that, do you say we're going
home or you don't say? Think about it like that.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
I do. I will say I'm going home, and then
when I'm there, I'll say I'm going home. Do you
know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, yeah, back to Australia.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah. But the thing that I need to share with
the group is at the age I am. I've only
just realized in the in the last few days literally
of planning this holiday, that I am no longer a child.
And what I mean by that is, I've obviously lived
away from my parents for a very long time. I've
lived more of my adult life here than I lived
in Britain. I'm you know, this is my home, and
so I've had years and decades of family visits either

(33:43):
just me or me and Brent and then me and
the kids, but like we haven't been over there together
for six years and over all those decades. When I
go home, it's something of an event, Like you get
to the airport and the family will be there and
they're excited to see you, and Mum will have organized
that there's going to be a dinner and everybody's organized for.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Like the prodigal daughter.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
You will get to your daughter.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
And it's like your favorite marm things in the fridge
and whatever. Right, you're being a child in a way
like when you go home, you get to be a
child again, don't you. And I was realizing that this
life stage that I'm in, and so many of my
friends are in, and I know so many outlouders are in,
you know, this time, my parents have kind of crossed
a bit of a rubicon in terms of their age

(34:25):
and what they can do. So it's much more like
we'll try and get a taxi to come to the
airport if we can. And I'm like, please don't, please,
don't worry about that. It's okay because they don't drive
anymore because my mom isn't doing all the like social
organizing that you used to do. Then like my brother's
a bit like, oh, I think I've got to work,
but I'll come around, like And the thing is is,
I'm not upset about that in terms of like, oh,

(34:48):
why won't they make an effort? But it all just
suddenly dawned on me in that way. The age sometimes
does that, like an era is over, you know what
I mean. And now when I go back home in
inverted commas, it's more about what could I do to
help them, and I've got to organize everything, which is fine,
but do you know what I mean, it's kind of emotion.

(35:10):
It's really kind of hit me that something has really
shifted in all of this and it will never be
like that again. I will never go back to Manchester
again and be my mom and Dad's house in the
way that I was for thirty years. Like I will
never have those airport experiences again with my little niece
and nephew. I will never I don't know, it's a lot.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, I've heard people describe it as you'll go there
and you've been an adult for a while, but you're
going to be the grown up now, like you're the
grown up in that situation. That's like the level of
responsibility for everyone and the caring role has shifted. And
I think that as well, like you probably feel the
passage of time more acutely because you have those gaps,

(35:51):
And I think that you notice change more when you
see someone every single day. You don't notice the change
as obviously as when you get there and you go oh, because.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
It's not incremental and what you just described whole. Is
it's a last that you didn't realize was a last.
You think there's going to be I mean, you know
logically there going to be in summers that time will
match on and things will change. But it's very clear
in the sand. It's not that it's a little bit different.
It's like, ah, okay, so this is a different chapter. Yeah,

(36:22):
And it's not even from what you're saying. It's not
even a dramatic chapter like Thank heavens, no one's died.
There's no terrible illness. It's more just And that's why
I think you can often not notice it, particularly if
you live close to your parents and you see them
more often. You'll only become aware of it when there
is a big drama like they fall or something will happen.

(36:44):
But this is a really distinct line in the sand
where you have to change identities and.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
Is it's really interesting, it's really and there's grief in that.
It makes you think about you know, I've been so
lucky in that for We've had, you know, a couple
of decades of my parents coming to visit me and
us having all these wonderful holidays together, you know, like
really great We've been to Tasmania and we've been to
the Barrier Reef, and we've spent lots of summers in
Sydney and they's been glorious and it's done. That is

(37:10):
really like, it's just it's just a jolt, you know.
And now I'm thinking, like in practical terms, I'm like, Okay,
I've got four days at Manchester with my teenagers. What
am I going to do it? Because normally I don't know,
do you know what I mean? Like, it's just it's
like this shift and it's yeah, anyway, most of.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
The time you don't say the last until it's in retrospect.
And even if you knew it was a last, how
would you savor it? Like are any of us truly
able to savor anything in the moment. It's like you
just look back and there's such nostalgia and grief and
like a bit of sadness in that.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
It's really interesting because you know that pressure that mothers
of young kids talk about when older women will say,
savor every second it goes by so fast. Now as
we're at the age when our friends are losing parents,
I don't know if you are whole, But I'm also
getting that spend every moment you can oh your parents,

(38:01):
and I do.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
And I have to say, I know this sounds like
throat clearing, but I also have to say, like, I
know how lucky I am that I can still go
and visit my parents right there are because we're are
as you say me, we're in the era. I've got
so many good friends who are literally losing their parents
right now, but you're right there. Pressure that, the pressure
of that, of making it count, and also it's very
brings into sharp focus the loss that is around the corner.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
If it's there, we wish you well on your trip.
We're going to miss you.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Before helping me, you.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
Should tell you you need to tell the out louders
how long you're going to be. I'm going to put
in their dowry.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
I'm away for three weeks, but you're going to get
the wonderful, wonderful filling hosts that we have here. I
just like to call them that.

Speaker 3 (38:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Leicester.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
If anyone came to the live shows, you know, there's
a little tension between them and Amelia about who gets
to be the lead filling. So that'll be fun to watch.
Vibes ideas, something casual, something fun.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
This is my best recommendation.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Before you go, though, We've got one more segment, which
is recommendations. We've got some things to tell you to
watch and see. I'm going to go first. Did you
guys watch season one of the I was Cowboy Cheerleaders
America Sweetheart.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
I loved it.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
It was a huge cultural moment.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Do we need to take the dance to the second?
I haven't started, but I need to know if I
need to watch this.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
You know, it depends. I mean, I really like season one.
Season two is different in that there's a lot more
about the auditions. Look top line, not a lot happens.
I like the auditions, yeah, but the auditions and training
camp is really sorry should say more. Training camp is
really stretched out, and that whole thing about who gets
cut from training camp stretch stretch, stretch, stretch. So that

(39:42):
takes up about, you know, two thirds of the series.
At least, it's a bit of a quieter season. There's
less drama.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
We're a part of each other's lives forever.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
You know what we're going to do each other's wedding.
You're like, when we make this team, we're gonna make
it together because we're such good friends, but then it
doesn't always end up like that. We are really excited
that there's a lot of new girls. Every year. The

(40:13):
talent just gets better and better and better. I'd say
there's less laughs. I mean, you're more familiar, obviously with
all the care all, particularly with the structure, and you know,
the coaches and the choreographers and stuff.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Some of our girls come back, do I know.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Reese comes back with her now husband, but she's really
minor role. And you see Victoria, remember Victoria who left.
You only see her for like five minutes in the
last episode, so she's gone. There's a lot of veterans,
so people who were in the team last season but
weren't featured players in the series. I suppose the main
person there's two main people in this season. One is Shandy,

(40:51):
who becomes a new sort of team leader and there's
drama with her which I won't spoil. And the other
is Jada, who's a five year vet I think Chandi
is also a five year VETT. They've both been in
the team for a long time, but they sort of
particularly Jada steps up into this leadership role around pay
and what's extraordinary.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
Is this is famis destroying everything exactly.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
Remember there was a whole big thing last time about
they were getting paid not even livable wage, and they
all had to work two or three other jobs, even
though the Dallas Cowboys players were getting paid tens of
millions of dollars, some of them in their contracts, so
it was very much seen as this little sort of
part time job. And even despite all of that pushback,
they started this season and it's actually the twenty twenty

(41:34):
four season without any pay increase after all of that,
and they make this big show of showing on the
show all of the perks that they get. But the
irony is that all the perks are like sponsored, so
it doesn't cost the company anything, but it's like free
botox and free press on nails and free you can't
pay your rent with free botimes. And it's all the

(41:54):
stuff that they need to meet these impossibly high understandards.
And there are these extraordinary scenes with them working these
incredible hours. Some of the work forty hours a week.
Some weeks they work and then they come home and
they have to scrub their own uniforms with toothbrushes to
get the fake tan and the makeup out of them,
because their uniforms don't even get clean.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Do you think, like, because when the first season of
this dropped, even though there have been reality shows that
this was the subject of few years, it was such
a smash hit and we all were talking about it
because we were looking into a world we didn't know.
And then the second season we know the world. So
it's a bit less interesting.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
But I'd say that's probably the case. And it's interesting
because I talked about gas lighting earlier, this whole theme
of getting out of your head, like some of the
girls are sort of psyching themselves out and can they
perform properly? But then also what's in their head is,
hang on, shouldn't they be paid more? And you know,
as they said, the world was telling them, you fight
for more money. But then the Dallas Cowboys administration are

(42:53):
all saying, oh, but you know, your full time job
that you have to do, that's what makes you interesting,
that's what people love about you. And they also say,
but we had to work full time jobs. Yeah, And
so there's a lot of this gas lighting that what
these women are asking for, they're being made to feel
really ashamed and uncomfortable and as if if you really
love dancing, you should be grateful for this.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Time, and there's another girl who will do it for
that prime.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
I thought I was going to watch it as escapism,
am I, we're going to watch it for us escapism
or we're not really escaping much.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
You can watch it for escapism because the stakes are
really low.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
Great, I just need to say some high kicks.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, no, all of that's good.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, still okay, good.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
So if you do want to watch, it is on
Netflix now and you can binge all the episodes they've
all dropped.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
I'm going to be cheeky and throw in a recommendation
for two quick things. The first is my sister Claire,
Steven's friend of the podcast. You can pre order her book,
and I don't think I've mentioned that on this podcast.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Novel.

Speaker 3 (43:44):
She has a novel coming out and it's called The
Worst Thing I've Ever done is coming out in October.
And I know I'm biased, So it's like I can
tell you that it's really good, but it is if
you read it. I have read it, and I only
got to read it at the very end. I didn't
get to read it as a work in progress intense,
but yes, it is unlike anything I've ever read. And

(44:04):
while it's about the intensity and the cruelty of online pylons,
and Claire writes about that with an a curacy that
is so unique because of how she's spoken to people
who have experienced it and had tastes of it herself,
it also has this profound level of depth. It's about
the selves that we invent on the internet. It's about
what we forgive each other for in real life as

(44:25):
opposed to what we punish each other for online. And
it's one of those books that will change you. You
will have a very different perspective by the end. And
I just promise you it is going to be big.
And the thing about pre orders, We've talked about this before.
If you pre order a book, you're sending a message
to the industry, which is a bloody hard industry that
you're interested in, that people want to buy this book,

(44:46):
and it's a really important part of the process. So
you can buy it on bigw or book Topier or wherever.
And it is out in October. And she also has
a substack, which is it's brilliant. She wrote a great
piece called Vulnerable Chat about exercise. Recently, she also wrote
about being in your mid thirties without botox. There are
just really interesting essays that she's writing. And I know

(45:08):
how many out louders love Clare's work, so her substantiautiful.
It's called NQR or not quite right. We'll have a
link in the show notes. You're going to love the
book and you'll love her writing.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
My main recommendation is a book by Deborah Oswald. Now
some of you will know who Deborah Oswald is. Me
you certainly will. She wrote Offspring. She is a famous
veteran Australian TV writer. She has written a book that
I've been I have been meaning to read it for
ages because I met her at a writerest thing I
did and I was like, oh, I haven't read your book.

(45:38):
But anyway, I did read it. You know, sometimes you
kind of got to read something because you said you
would read it, and then you're just like, oh my god,
this is so great. Her new novel is called One
hundred Years of Betty and it is a book from
the perspective of a woman, an Australian woman who is
about to turn a hundred and she is reflecting on
her life, and it goes all the way back to
when she was born in London before the Second World War,

(46:00):
and then what happens to her. Think about like Forest Gumpen,
you know how like a history told through one person's perspective.
So she comes to us Tralia is a ten pound palm,
you know. It goes through all these different social movements
and things that have happened to her, but it is
she is the most delicious character. I just wanted to
all the time get back to hanging out with Betty.
Like there's a feminist awakening to a point, but also

(46:23):
just lots of really interesting relationship parts to it, motherhood
written in ways that are just really refreshing. I love,
love loved it. So it's a novel. It's got a
great cover, and it's called One hundred Years of Betty
and you will love it. And then I also just
have to throw in because you've just told me that
m Vernham has already recommended this. But Brent and I
watched Sinners last weekend, which is a sort of blockbuster

(46:44):
vampiary movie with a twist with Michael B. Jordan. It's
made by the guy who made Black Panther and made
Creed and which are not necessarily things I would watch,
But then I watched this. It is the most original movie.
It is so much fun, and just watch it.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Where can I watch that? Because it was out at
the movies and now I can watch her Home.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Sinners is out. You have to still buy or rent
it at this point. I think it's going to come
to Max maybe but not yet. At the moment. You
can buy a rent it on Apple or on Prime.
And it's like, you know, people say, how can you
tell a new story?

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Right?

Speaker 2 (47:13):
And it's a fat umpiate movie, so like how many
times can tell the MYPI movie? The way you tell
a new story is by telling it from a completely
different perspective, and this is told from a Black Americans perspective.
It's set in the thirties. It is great. It is sexy,
it is fun, it is fresh. The music's fantastic. It
is violent, but it is fun. Sinners it's great.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
I might watch that on the small screen because I don't.
I can't watch those kinds of things on the big
screen if they're scary, But the small screen I can
look away.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
It's got some good female characters and the music.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Is oh, that's all.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
We've got time. Oh that's been a big show, a
big Friday show. Thank you to all of you out
loud us for being here with us today. We're going
to be back in your ears next week. Well, these
guys will be at least Jesse and Mia read us out.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Ruth Devine, executive producer Emiline Gazillis.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Lea Porgus is our audio producer, Josh Green is our
video producer. Coco and Tessa are our junior content producers,
and Mom and Mia studios are styled with furniture from
Fenton and Fenton. Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Before you go, we want to tell you about Yesterdays
subscriber episode. Holly and Vernon and I helped too out
louders through their dilemma. One had an inheritance dilemma revolving
around a piece of jewelry, and meanwhile another is pregnant
with her third baby and she's having some regrets. A link,
as always will be in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Bon Voyage Hole. We'll see you in a few weeks.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
Enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
We love you, bye too bye.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Shout out to any MoMA Mea subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do so.
There's a link in the episode description

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